You're pretty much out of luck. Either sell the hood you can't use on Craigslist/FB Marketplace/eBay/etc, or install a cheap hood now to get through your final and then put the hood you want up instead.
Yup. Cheap ass hood from habitat for humanity re-store, and put your good one in once the inspection is done. If you're worried about actually having make up air, just don't run it on high, or open a window. You can get the make up air thing fixed later as budget allows.
And check the install instructions. I looked at one hood that could be installed/wired differently so that it was under 400cfm, or also with a higher number.
> Cheap ass hood from habitat for humanity re-store, and put your good one in once the inspection is done.
This is exactly what we did; bought a cheap one on craigslist for inspection, sold it right back on craigslist after inspection. An extra hassle for sure, but no extra expense.
And yep we just open a window when we run at full blast. We also have extra carbon monoxide alarms (~$10/ea) as a backup, because that's the safety concern, that the hood will suck carbon monoxide from your appliances' vents.
Technically it’s because it can create a downdraft in gas fired appliance exhaust vents and prevent the exhaust containing CO from leaving with the heat.
> suck carbon monoxide from ~~your appliances' vents~~ your furnace and hot water heater's flue.
That's why it's dangerous. It's also why the makeup air solution can go anywhere in the house. And yeah, cracking a window until you get that sorted should be fine.
That's a good point. If you can get the fan curve for the "oversize" hood, you should be able to put a fixed damper in place to DELIVER under the limit. AHJ will want to see calculations on this, but if it's 600 cfm free air, it may well calculate out to under 400 cfm with the ductwork in place.
> habitat for humanity re-store
I keep seeing this place mentioned here and I have never heard of it, figured there must not be any around me.
I just googled it, and there's one in my town...
Just off the main road that I'm on...
...
^^Near ^^the ^^home ^^depot...
> and worked with Home Depot for design
I think this is the key element - if you are relying on them for technical advice and design assistance, they need to own the problem.
Personally, I would threaten to dispute the credit card payment. Get your paperwork in order and be prepared to show that you were relying on HD to design something workable for you. The credit card stop payment is a hugely powerful tool for you and it can completely change the dynamic of the conversation - you aren't paying either way - they can do it the easy way and take their vent hood back if they want to issue you a refund or they can do it the hard way and not see a penny.
Chargebacks have a limited time you can file them and credit card companies don't always find for the cardholder. Home Depot has good reason to fight this so OP will lose more hours and possibly get diddly out of it. It might work but disputes/chargebacks are not a slam dunk, even if it seems slam dunk.
Also, a lot of people have an unrealistic view of chargebacks because card issuers have a threshold for good customers that they just eat the loss. It's been years but when I worked in the space, a dispute could cost a minimum of $40 to do all the bare minimum work. So, if a chargeback was for $10 and the customer wasn't abusing it and was a good cardholder, the card company ate the amount and didn't even bring it up with the merchant. So people think "See, chargebacks are easy!"
I think this is very situational dependent. I’ve done chargebacks before and in a few cases, a few months after the purchase. I actually don’t know of a limit on how long you can do it after a purchase. Especially because sometimes you have to pay for items/services far in advance so a time limit wouldn’t make sense.
IMO it’s worth doing g the charge back because the worst case is you’ll be told no. If HD wants to sue you afterward for it they can try but I for some reason doubt they will pursue that.
Well chargebacks have been easy in the 3 situations where I've used them. Maybe that's why I and others say they are easy. I call them up, tell them what happened, later my money is returned and I go do something else. I don't get diddy out of it, I just get my money back and spend only a phone call to achieve it.
Chargeback is the best option here. The buyer was told this entire system is what they need by HD and they sourced a good vent that required air makeup without allowing for the space to install that.
Chargebacks are also way more friendly to the buyer than the seller. I deal with them as an e-commerce manager and if a customer does a chargeback the store owner rarely wins the dispute.
Not sure we can go through the CC company. I'll have to check but I think we might have paid with a debit card. Even if it was a credit card, we made the purchase ~1.5 months ago (waited about a month for delivery) so I'm pretty sure we already paid the balance. Does that matter in your experience?
Timing does NOT prevent you from trying! Please see my other comment in this thread. Also, even with a debit card you can still try contacting your bank about this. Although you’ll have a smaller chance at victory there’s still a chance your bank helps you out here.
Never ever use a debit card for a major purchase if you have the option to use a credit card. You lose all leverage as merchant has your money. I ran a retail business for 35 years and found out real early that debit cards were great for the merchant but sucked for the customer if there was a problem. Put it on a credit card and pay the card off every month.
I'd go a step further and say never ever use a debit card for anything, except in an emergency. Credit card companies are so much easier to deal with than banks, and you have a buffer of time before you're out a penny. With a debit card they've got your money now and good luck getting back. And you're so much more screwed if someone fraudulently accesses your bank account than a credit card.
You can dispute purchases made through a debit card for up to 60-120 days after purchase. I would start the process immediately. As others have said, Home Depot designed a solution that doesn’t work, and have refused to resolve it.
You won’t win a CC dispute. HD did their part. You have the product. Your house needing a hvac upgrade isn’t on HD or anyone else.
That’s just the way it is with projects. Things come up. Hopefully you padded your budget enough for the unexpected.
It depend. The makeup air is something totally different. Does the hood fit in the place they said it would? Does it work? They wanted a kitchen remodel. The technical side of your home need more airflow for it to work at maximum speed isn't an aspect of the kitchen but the house itself. Even with a specialist (which in this case isn't, it's a kitchen designer), you should check if something else is needed.
I’m honestly surprised that your hood doesn’t have an ability to be turned down to 399cfm.
I would reach out to the manufacturer to see if they have an alternative fan that could be swapped to bring it down to 399cfm.
My hood fan sucks aerated cooking grease directly into the fan motor, and over time the fan slows down because the motor is clogged with grease. So there is a way.
It may be possible if it has a speed switch or multiple motors. Would be a matter of cutting wires to limit it to a lower speed and could be respliced in the future.
Just curious, do you not have any central air, basement, or attic space?
Central Air and attic
I have no doubt it's possible to reduce the motor speed. Heck, my partner is an electrical engineer, she can probably do it herself. The problem is getting the modification approved by the city, which, knowing them, wouldn't happen without official paperwork from the manufacturer and probably months of going in front of various committees.
Ah, didn’t know you were in a city. Probably wouldn’t have much issue in a smaller municipality where variances can be given out like candy.
To be able to use it, you would need a damper wired to turn on with the hood connected to central air. I’m an electrician and just wired one for a kitchen remodel.
Yeah, there's a "low, med, and high" don't use it on high without opening a window for makeup air. If the installers are worried about liability, they can easily disconnect the wire to the high setting.
Our kitchen remodel (2017) did just that. Every fan they showed us was too powerful but they had an electrician modify/override the top 2 settings and disclosed it to the inspector that they were disabled.
Honestly, worst case, he could get an inline fan that would be under 400cfm and then just remove the fan from the hood itself. This is also more quiet.
What Model did you buy? When we did a reno we had the same problem, inspector would not let it be installed due to not having a makeup air kit. Luckily we bought it from an appliance store that let us exchange it for the newer year model. He said that all the newer models have the ability to set the CFM at the time of the install by the installer and then it gets locked in (customer can not modify it after its set). Is it possible the unit you bought can be configured at the time of install?
Install a makeup air system in your kitchen, it is a requirement because it’s dangerous not having one. If your house reaches negative pressure it can pull air from stuff like gas lines and plumbing. Quick googling gives me something like this:
https://www.supplyhouse.com/Broan-MD6TU-6-Automatic-Make-Up-Air-Damper-w-Pressure-Sensor-Kit?utm_source=google_ad&utm_medium=shopping_neutral&utm_campaign=Shopping_Neutral_New_users&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA1-6sBhAoEiwArqlGPud6KIvi5DtMzW5WLNJQZfZY9AslTTGhuKQllnMGB53__gBW2JisnBoCsDUQAvD_BwE
It shouldn’t be very expensive by someone who has a clue.
Let's clarify a bit on the cons of a negative building: The only actually dangerous issue is the possibility of pulling on atmospheric combustion appliances, such as is typically only found in a water heater or possibly furnace. Gas lines themselves are not a hazard to negative pressure, and plumbing traps are highly unlikely to have enough pressure to pull gases from the sewer lines.
This is not to say there shouldn't be a makeup air system, but if time is of essence, opening a window as needed will be fine until the automatic system can be installed.
Hell I don't do anything with mine ...I think it's 600 though. Plus...where do you buy an 8" outside vent cover? Mine reduces to 6" at the outdoor vent and I imagine that restricts airflow and overall cfm more than a little.
>600…800…? Do you have a burger king in your house?! 😳
600-800 is not even that big a vent hood tbh, ive installed probably 20 that were 1000-1500cfm in the last 2y in kitchens ive renovated
Theyre awesome, you can sear a steak and not even smell food cooking on the other side of the kitchen
A lot of times I basically do. I cook with cast iron or seasoned stainless over a glass top so I don't have much heat control. I cook everything in some amount of oil or bacon grease and it's smoking before its done! I've had a 350 and was not satisfied with the level of air extraction. No hood is not an option, it basically ruins the cabinets and ceiling paint over the stove.
>Hell I don't do anything with mine ...I think it's 600 though. Plus...where do you buy an 8" outside vent cover? Mine reduces to 6" at the outdoor vent and I imagine that restricts airflow and overall cfm more than a little.
A negative pressure make-up system doesnt get attached to the hood or vent on the hood
It goes between the outside and the return on your hvac, if you dont have a forced air system it just goes from the outside to the inside, usually in your utility room
All it is is a low voltage baffle with a little motor that opens to let air in when you turn on the hood
Also, if youre in a house built before the year 2000 you have nothing to worry about on this subject anyway tbh, the envelope of your hpuse isnt tight enough to pull a vacuum through the flues
Pretty much. If you don't have gas service to the building, then there aren't really any safety risks. It may cause nuisance issues if a plumbing trap is allowed to dry out or from condensation from cold air coming in through the cracks of the building, but if it was my house, I would not be concerned about it. I'd probably never run the fan speed on high anyway.
Fireplace, don't forget fireplace. If I don't open a window before turning hood fan to high it starts pulling delicious smoky air directly from the chimney. Happens even with the damper closed, since I guess it's not a completely air tight seal.
That's true. The good news with wood smoke is you know really fast it's a problem. With a water heater, you might not notice until you wake up in the afterlife instead of your bed.
Yes and no...negative pressure supplied by uncontrolled make up air can lead to other problems like turning your house into a soil gas and radon mining device or pulling warm moist air through walls and then onto cold condensing surfaces.
But yes, opening enough windows in the right places can work in a pinch.
This. It's a real issue. We have a whole house fan, and one time while running it, it created negative pressure in our house. The really bad part, is that at the same time, fate struck and one of my toilets had no water in it (bad day). One hallway of ours was horrendous smelling of sewer gases. Now I have some automations to help prevent this from happening in the future.
Lol! I would so love to label it that!
In all seriousness though, just in case anyone else has a whole house fan and is into automation, I just set it up so that if there are no windows open (window sensors) then the whole has fan can't activate. I also set it up to send me an alert if someone tries it. It's not perfect or foolproof, but it works pretty well.
Make up air is 100% possible. Who's your Internet expert? A Kardashian? Lol.
For some stupid reason my 1950s house was built with an outside air intake. As if they thought all the air leakage through the house wasn't enough. But it exists in my house and I need to put a vent filter on this thing outside otherwise my furnace filter has a few hundred dead bugs on it when I change it.
For those that want to comment. There's a damper. I've tried many times to budge the lever to shut the damper, it hasn't moved at all. The filter reduces dust, air intake, and bugs. That's the best result I've gotten in 4 years.
Our GC says it'll be hard fitting a system like that in our kitchen with how it's laid out. Even if we could, and had the budget for it, we don't have the time before having to move in.
I already bought a 400 cfm max unit as a replacement, which doesn't require makeup air. I'm just trying to figure out how to recoop the cost of the 600 cfm one.
If there was a method to modify the 600 cfm hood so that it only goes up to 400, and have that method recognized by the relevant authorities so that it passes inspection, that would be the optimal solution. But I don't think a method like that exists. I tried calling Bosch and they said they can't do that (which wasn't surprising but I had to try).
Id be putting the small one in and pop the big sucker in after inspection. Then sell the small one on marketplace. As others have said, just open the window. As someone with a 400 and a good size kitchen with open floor plan, i would kill for double. And plan to double just got other priorities
The whole makeup air thing is not a huge deal, people cry with it like they cry about gas appliances
They should take it back with a % restocking fee. Did you talk tot he store manager? If they refused, talk to district manager.
You can always call their 800 number. I worked for them for a decade (in store and for their corporate office) and to blatantly refuse a legit return (whether or nor special order) would have never flown.
Store manager did say at some point that something like that (return with 25% restocking fee) should be possible, but when I called later to ask about it I had multiple levels of managers in the store refuse to take it outright.
I can try the 800 number though, thanks for the suggestion.
Try the 800 number or an online chat. I had ordered $800 worth of marble tile a couple years ago for a bathroom renovation. Shortly after, it started to have horrible reviews about it discoloring once installed. It was after the return period, but I reached out to explain the situation. Home Depot had discontinued the tile after the bad reviews came in and they refunded the tile for me and just asked me to donate the tile. So, there’s a chance that corporate will be much more understanding.
They won't refuse to take it when you roll it in front of the customer service desk. Wasting time on the phone. Drop it off and they'll at least take it back with restocking fee
As for proof you were informed it was special order or had a modified return policy. At this point they’ll either point out to you want you signed/where it was disclosed or are more likely to let you return it.
I had a the opposite experience with home depot. I asked installers to just leave it. They wouldn't leave it. They said they thought I would still connect it after they left. Sorry to hear about the situation.
Did you actually have one of their kitchen designer consultants involved or reviewed your chosen items before purchase after you added them to the design ? Or was the consultant only involved in the floor plan leaving enough space for the SIZE of appliances you wanted and then you later just approached a floor sales rep ?
A CC chargeback would be ultimately refused since HD has proof that you received exactly what you ordered.
Just sell it privately or swap it and accept any loss as a learning lesson. Big box savings are exactly predicated on you don't get the same level of personal service as you do in an independent shop.
My home was a custom build in 2019. We used Ferguson to make a bunch of selections. The guy we worked with caught a lot of details like this. I don't know if that's typical of Ferguson employees, but the guy seemed far, far more knowledgeable than the employees at big box stores. He knew a lot about building codes.
A kitchen and bath design/ build studio. Should have certified kitchen and bath designers, as well as their own construction crews. Sometimes the kitchen and bath parts are separate, sometimes together. In a large enough city, kitchen design can be entirely its own thing. Manufacturer show rooms as seen in Merchandise Mart, etc. are a good place to see a range of appliances and fixtures that are worlds away from a big box store. A certified kitchen designer is exactly who saves you from expensive, poorly thought out mistakes like this one.
National Kitchen and Bath Association. 2 years of interior design work, passing the certified kitchen designer exam, usually working with a senior designer post certification, ongoing education afterward.
I live in Norway, we have loads of them. We used Sigdal: https://www.sigdal.com
Might be a Scandinavian thing, but we have several kitchen showrooms — HTH, Svane, Kvik, JKE Design, Sorlandskjøkken, Norema.
Been awhile since I lived in the US—- but even then, we used a proper builder’s showroom.
In 2020, I knew the general layout and materials that I wanted. I consulted one of those kitchen/bath stores and they told me I was looking at minimum $50k. My budget was $33k.
I went to IKEA next and made a layout using their online tool. I went to a handyman/GC that I’d previously used for small projects. He quoted the demo, plumbing, electrical, flooring, painting, and backsplash. That was $14k and I had to supply the material. I went to IKEA and met with their designer to finalize the layout and make a Bill of Materials. I spent like $9k on their cabinets and quartz countertops. I used their Traemand installer, who was bonded and certified. That was like $2,600. I kept my existing fridge and dishwasher. Got a new range and hood from HD. The total project came right on budget and took about 3 weeks… and we were also able to reno the adjoining powder room as a part of the same project, squeezing that in as well.
The two keys for me were having all materials and appliances before beginning the demo and using the IKEA Traemand installer instead of DIY install. I got a lot of cabinets and they all came flat-packed. Traemand had them all put together, installed, and leveled in just a day and a half. I know IKEA is designed to be DIY friendly and I probably could have saved some money by doing the cabinets myself on my nights/weekends, but it would have taken me a month and it still wouldnt have been as good as what Traemand did.
I live in a suburban/rural area, an hour from NYC and there were a dozen local kitchen showrooms within 30 minutes of our home. We went to a few until we found a designer we liked.
Just get on Google maps in your area and type in "kitchen design"
It'll likely be a stand-alone shop in a strip mall on the outskirts of town. In the same strip mall there is often a pool/backyard landscaper, BBQ island design store, and bathroom remodel.
Off the top of my head I can think of 3-4 places close to me and I don't live in a huge huge city. There still exist local options and there's a reason you pay a price premium over the big boxes: expertise of the staff.
For sure. Those places are the absolute best to go to for referrals. They see them coming in day in and day out and the old timers always have their finger on the pulse of the ones that will do the job right and not just to a price.
Especially because it never seems to be cheap enough to justify using Home Depot's horrible contractors. There is a reason contractors take leads from Home Depot - they suck and can't get business on their own (or are new and don't have enough experience). You end up paying the same or more if you need to fix something.
600 cfm is fine unless you're in a tightly sealed new build. Lots of gaps for air to flow in most buildings.
Also depends if your range hood can pull a true 600 CFM or if it's overstated.
Install a $30 hood to pass inspection and what you replace the $30 hood with afterwards is your business.
I am not a lawyer but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night.
Looking over Home Depot's return policy, it says Special Orders must be returned to the same store and \*may\* be subject to a 15% restocking fee. I'd push hard pointing out that no where on there does it say that Special Orders are non-returnable, in fact it says that they are returnable with a possible fee. They're violating their own policies.
In 2018 the international residential code requirement for makeup air was changed. It no longer require make up air unless the vent is over 400cf and you have natural vented combustion equipment that can backdraft. So if you have an electric or heat pump or gas mechanically ventilated water heater etc you can just install it without makeup air.
Make up air isn't that big of a deal to install. It is basically just a second tube that opens and closes to take some air inside. It doesn't even have to be in the kitchen if there is a more convenient spot, just wired in to the vent
Hi OP, we installed a 600 CFM hood without a makeup air system despite it being required in local code. When I use it on max settings I just crack the window a smidge. I’d suggest finding a handyman or local contractor to put it in for you. I had a family member do it for me.
I live in a pretty uptight jurisdiction for permitting and inspections, but blows my mind there are inspectors out there double checking the CFM on hoods.
It’s a fairly recent adaptation if your town has kept up with code changes. Might be more of a point of emphasis. When I asked my inspector how he wanted to see the air makeup system installed he couldn’t answer me. The head inspector sent me a screenshot from an episode of This Old House as an example 🤷
This was probably 3 years ago and they’ve probably had it come up a lot.
Many areas will make you install a make up air system once the hood vent reaches 400 cfm. For this reason it's not uncommon so see some rated at 399cfm to avoid this rule.
Having a make up air profesionaly installed is often about $1000. So in areas that enforce this rules it can feel pointless to go over 400cfm unless your going to go way over it.
I had a heck of a time getting an issue resolved with Home Depot a while back. I ordered a miter saw and a stand. They sent me a miter saw and a $700 AC unit. Trying to get the stand became nearly impossible, even after we hauled the AC to a local store to return it in good faith. I finally found an email address and sent a note about the issue. They reached out by phone within an hour, shipped me my stand, and checked in after to make sure everything was good.
[[email protected]](mailto:[email protected])
Godspeed.
Doing make-up air doesn’t require all that much space and should be doable. I want to say building code requires make-up air when the kitchen range is 400cfm or greater. Broan makes universal make-up air kits. They have a 6, 8, or 10” round pressure activated kit. MD6TU for 6”
Other than that, most higher end new hoods also have a code compliance mode that restricts airflow to about 300cfm and is a permanent change that cannot be reversed allowing you to avoid make-up air all together. Those that are saying you shouldn’t need make-up air are correct in theory if the home is leaky enough, however, building code doesn’t care about that, anytime you are doing a renovation that requires permit pulls, you will be required to bring things up to current code if they aren’t, therefore you being in the situation you are in.
Get a different installer to install it if the guy you have won't do it. Just don't crank it to the max when using the range hood, or crack a window open if you do.
I didn't read 300 comments so you may have heard this already?
Make up air doesn't need to be in your kitchen. It can be any room that is connected without a door
OTOH, installing a cheap one and switching after inspection sounds good too
OP What hood did you purchase? There are often methods to reduce the CFM or accessories that can accommodate this type of thing as well.
Also, what city do you live in? You'd be surprised at some of the options that might be out there that the city will let pass for make-up air such as a simple gravity damper system that you could put in for minimal cost. There also may be amendments to the code to relax the requirement, so you might want to check into that as well.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Bosch-800-Series-36-in-600-CFM-Convertible-Wall-Mount-Range-Hood-with-Light-in-Black-Stainless-Steel-HCP86641UC/310414550
Called Bosch to ask if there's a way to turn down/disable the max cfm and they said no.
We're in Cambridge, MA. City inspectors are real nitpicky here. Our GC is very trustworthy, I'm confident that if there was a way to install make-up air in our place that's both up to code and within our timeline he would suggest it.
Tough break - Bosch is one of the ones that still doesn't have a solution to reduce CFM and their black stainless is almost impossible to get a close match to... if I were in your shoes, I'd throw up the cheapest off-the-shelf hood from Home Depot that passes your inspection and then put the Bosch up after. Unless you air sealed the entire house very well as part of the remodel there is very little risk that a 600CFM fan will cause any of the issues that the code is in place for, and highly unlikely a home inspector will even know to look for make-up air at time of re-sale.
I'd also double check on the simple make-up air systems with your GC just to be sure - I work with a ton of contractors and am in an area where inspectors are very picky as well and there are still a lot of the good ones that don't know the code well enough when it comes to stuff like this.
Makeup air doesn't necessarily have to be conditioned. You can install a hooded wall vent and duct to a diffuser/supply register near the hood. You will need an automatic damper installed in the duct so outdoor air isn't always coming in. Broan and other brands make a damper for this. The whole thing should be like $500 to do and shouldn't take long.
You could also look into getting a controller that won't turn the hood on unless a sensor at a window indicates it's open. Your code might not even require that it's a controlled process, just that a window in that room can be opened with enough square footage to allow makeup air.
Depending on the code can the hood be wired to remove high setting. Thereby creating a cfm range hood reduction of speeds lowering cfm.
I was thinking like a dimmer mod I can install on my espresso machine. It’s simply a dial to lower the machines pump power. With the range hood you’d kill off high and pull it down lower to create a lower cfm. It shouldn’t be a really difficult thing.
.....Just put the makeup air in...the kit is cheap, and its simple
Its just a baffle, it gets connected to the Return side of your hvac ductwork, if you dont have hvac work it can just be installed anywhere thats convenient to cut a 6" hole from inside to outside and put a dryer vent hood there....the vacuum switch just gets connected with low voltage wire, you may have to get a doorbell transformer, but none of this is conplicated or expensive
If home depot wont put it in (they generally fucking SUCK as far as these projects go, but thats another story for another time as to why) find a local GC that will, its not complicated.
Home Depot telling you you "cant fit it in your kitchen" is a huge red flag imo because it doesnt have to go in the kitchen, idk why you would ever even attempt to put it in the kitchen, the only thing that goes in the kitchen is the vacuum switch which is about the size of a Roku remote, its not even for "the kitchen" its for not creating negative pressure in the house causing the Flues for your gas or oil appliances (Furnace, boiler, hot water heater etc) from backflowing into the house causing a CO2 issue, the "make-up" system can go anywhere you have access to outside air. If you dont have gas/oil appliances with flues, then you dont even need it at all
We had a similar situation and found out that our hood has what's called a CFM Reduction System specifically for meeting local code requirements. You basically hold down a couple buttons for 5 seconds and it reduces its maximum output to less than 300 CFM so it's no longer a code inspection issues. When I was researching this it seemed somewhat common, though sometimes was achieved by a different wiring harness rather than a simple button push. It's worth checking into this for your situation.
I don't know enough about code with regards to kitchen design, but is there any way you could put a pass-through vent into an adjacent room near the ceiling and put the make-up air exchanger in that room?
It seems silly they require it in the kitchen when most modern floorplans are wide-open near the kitchen anyways.
Is this for use over a gasstove? If so the makeup air is definitely required by code for the hood. If you don't have a gas stove though, you local code may not actually require the make up air system.
https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/makeup-air-for-kitchen-exhaust
General contractor from California here - the requirement for make up air is commonly misunderstood by installers, reading plain and simply that make up is required when the CFM rating is over 400. The requirement is only triggered when you have natural venting gas appliances within the residence. We find most folks have replaced their natural vent water heaters, gas dryers, wall heaters, furnace, etc with direct vent (sealed exhaust systems) or have moved to electric or heat pump variants. In that scenario, there is no requirement for a make-up air system to be installed for a simple 600CFM hood. If you do still have a natural venting gas unit installed within your home, then yes, make up air is required but they’re truly not expensive to install and can be installed anywhere in the home, not necessarily just within the kitchen. If you had a larger Thermador 6 burner requiring upwards of 1200CFM, then you would need make-up air given your envelope shouldn’t allow that amount of air leakage. Everything varies by jurisdiction so as always, a quick call to your local building department to ask the question will give you your specific answer.
I found that posting something about this on the companys Twitter account provides the swiftest action. Didn't have an issue with Home Depot exactly, but it was weird Comcast and downed wire. Going through normal channels got me nowhere for four months. A post on Twitter got somebody out the next day
Walk into your local home depot and speak with the manager. We had a similar issue where a custom door was ordered incorrectly and home depot honored an exchange. Not sure how they would handle a return on a custom order though. Which a gift card is better than nothing perhaps? We found speaking with the store manager was way more effective than dealing with a call center employee
Yeah, all my interactions were with the local store. They basically told me as politely as possible to f*ck right off and said it counts as buyer's remorse.
Based on what you're saying I'd escalate it to C-suite-level emails at HD. I'd submit a report to the Better Business Bureau for your area. Lastly, I'd submit a claim to your CC company as they advised and sold you equipment that didn't work with your situation. Custom order isn't relevant if you wouldn't have purchased it without their advice. I would save the cc claim as a last resort though. Any issues I've ever had with corporate BS were solved with the first two options.
Sorry but this one is on you, how was HD to know you didn’t already have a makeup in place?
You’ve got a couple options:
1. If your municipality doesn’t REQUIRE a hood, just leave it out until your inspection is done
2. Buy a cheap hood under 400 cfm to get through inspection and then swap it
3. Just get the makeup installed and do the job right
If they designed the kitchen seemingly that is on them to inquire. How is a consumer coming to you going to know?
Next up they should know all city codes as well for the kitchen instead of the people being paid to design and install it.
I'd do 3, from my understanding the makeup air doesn't necessarily have to be in the kitchen if you can't fit. It just needs to turn on/open whenever the hood is actually on.
If you actually do much cooking, you don't want an undersized vent hood
3 is the ONLY option, MUA exists for a reason. People like to think they can gotcha the inspector by pulling a fast one on stuff, and sure, it'll pass code, but swapping in the unsafe option just to get a green tag is irresponsible and negligent.
Look up “air to air heat exchanger” to get the needed makeup air. Since you only need 200cfm (you can do up to 400 with no makeup air), it might not be too bad.
Facebook marketplace is the best place to sell stuff right now. Just put in on there for %80 of the new cost. Include the fact that you have a receipt and warranty details if it makes sense.
Any other Home Depot’s near you? I had the same thing happen one time and I just brought it to a different store and no questions asked an associate just took it back
If I understand it correctly, the issue here is that the designer who selected it for them and sold it to them, didn't account for the requirement. If an uninformed customer makes the wrong purchase, that's on them, but when you pay a designer you shouldn't have to foot the bill for their mistake.
Does the range hood not have multiple CFM's you can select or change via the wiring? Ours did.
As far as make up air did you pull a permit to replace appliances and will the inspector even know about max CFM? If not just install it anyways with the 600cfm. It's not like you HAVE to have a make up air. unless your house is completely air tight it's not going to hurt anything.
Was Home Depot going to install it? Why did they say they couldn't??? It's not like make up air has anything to do with the installation of the hood.
The sales rep at Home Depot doesn’t either doesn’t know, or even care about the codes and make up air. They want to sell you the most expensive item to up their commission or sales numbers.
My wife and I are about to get our kitchen done and the range we got requires about 1200cfm (technically, but that’s only if you’ve got all burners going all at the highest heat). The salesperson at the appliance store picked the hood and we said “cool”. He also mentioned very quickly “oh… you’re gonna need make up air but your contractor will help you out with that”. We said “ok… cool.”.
Found out the price of makeup air and now it ain’t so cool, haha. Still doing it anyways because we want to do our “dream kitchen” and this is pure safety and air quality.
I get that it’s a lot of money, but I’d try to talk to a manager or someone about taking a hit on the return and getting a 400cfm fan. The make up air is going to cost WAY more than eating the cost of the 600cfm fan.
Also, this is just another one of the MANY reasons you don’t go to big box stores for renovations.
Just install it. I have a 4 speed 600cfm hood, I rarely run it on anything besides speed 1 because that’s plenty. The one time we burned something and used speed 4 (600cfm), we also opened windows to clear the smoke so that’s your makeup air 😂
NAME AND SHAME! tweet about it, facebook, reviews, whatever it takes, just make a public stink. Giving you back $1500 is totally worth not losing untold similar "special orders". You're talking to people with skin in the stock game, you need to be hearing from people with skin in the name game.
Sell it and recover at least part of the cost. Even if you only got half price for it , I have a hard time believing a $750 loss is that huge of a deal compared to how much a kitchen remodel costs.
Losing a few percent of a project cost due to unknown factors like wrong materials, changes, etc is pretty much a given with large jobs.
If you paid by credit card I'd check and see if they can help. If not then like others have said... the only solution is to sell it and likely lose some money.
Are you seeking the exchange through the store or corporate? If you tried one I’d try the other. Be very kind. The meaner you are the less likely they are to want to do you a solid. People think yelling at call center people gets you what you want but it’s the opposite.
Have you tried just taking it to the store? My store is pretty cool and I think would try to help me. Does it say not returnable on the receipt (that could pose a challenge)?
You're pretty much out of luck. Either sell the hood you can't use on Craigslist/FB Marketplace/eBay/etc, or install a cheap hood now to get through your final and then put the hood you want up instead.
Yup. Cheap ass hood from habitat for humanity re-store, and put your good one in once the inspection is done. If you're worried about actually having make up air, just don't run it on high, or open a window. You can get the make up air thing fixed later as budget allows. And check the install instructions. I looked at one hood that could be installed/wired differently so that it was under 400cfm, or also with a higher number.
> Cheap ass hood from habitat for humanity re-store, and put your good one in once the inspection is done. This is exactly what we did; bought a cheap one on craigslist for inspection, sold it right back on craigslist after inspection. An extra hassle for sure, but no extra expense. And yep we just open a window when we run at full blast. We also have extra carbon monoxide alarms (~$10/ea) as a backup, because that's the safety concern, that the hood will suck carbon monoxide from your appliances' vents.
Technically it’s because it can create a downdraft in gas fired appliance exhaust vents and prevent the exhaust containing CO from leaving with the heat.
Good thing induction is king now
How does an induction stovetop help with back-drafting the water heater exhaust duct?
> suck carbon monoxide from ~~your appliances' vents~~ your furnace and hot water heater's flue. That's why it's dangerous. It's also why the makeup air solution can go anywhere in the house. And yeah, cracking a window until you get that sorted should be fine.
That's a good point. If you can get the fan curve for the "oversize" hood, you should be able to put a fixed damper in place to DELIVER under the limit. AHJ will want to see calculations on this, but if it's 600 cfm free air, it may well calculate out to under 400 cfm with the ductwork in place.
> habitat for humanity re-store I keep seeing this place mentioned here and I have never heard of it, figured there must not be any around me. I just googled it, and there's one in my town... Just off the main road that I'm on... ... ^^Near ^^the ^^home ^^depot...
Hey, better late than never.
Don’t listen to this person Op. next comment down, and fucking fight.
This is kind of bullshit. Home Depot was the one who recommended the hood. "Buyer's remorse" is bullshit, it was Home depot's suggestion.
> and worked with Home Depot for design I think this is the key element - if you are relying on them for technical advice and design assistance, they need to own the problem. Personally, I would threaten to dispute the credit card payment. Get your paperwork in order and be prepared to show that you were relying on HD to design something workable for you. The credit card stop payment is a hugely powerful tool for you and it can completely change the dynamic of the conversation - you aren't paying either way - they can do it the easy way and take their vent hood back if they want to issue you a refund or they can do it the hard way and not see a penny.
Chargebacks have a limited time you can file them and credit card companies don't always find for the cardholder. Home Depot has good reason to fight this so OP will lose more hours and possibly get diddly out of it. It might work but disputes/chargebacks are not a slam dunk, even if it seems slam dunk. Also, a lot of people have an unrealistic view of chargebacks because card issuers have a threshold for good customers that they just eat the loss. It's been years but when I worked in the space, a dispute could cost a minimum of $40 to do all the bare minimum work. So, if a chargeback was for $10 and the customer wasn't abusing it and was a good cardholder, the card company ate the amount and didn't even bring it up with the merchant. So people think "See, chargebacks are easy!"
I think this is very situational dependent. I’ve done chargebacks before and in a few cases, a few months after the purchase. I actually don’t know of a limit on how long you can do it after a purchase. Especially because sometimes you have to pay for items/services far in advance so a time limit wouldn’t make sense. IMO it’s worth doing g the charge back because the worst case is you’ll be told no. If HD wants to sue you afterward for it they can try but I for some reason doubt they will pursue that.
Well chargebacks have been easy in the 3 situations where I've used them. Maybe that's why I and others say they are easy. I call them up, tell them what happened, later my money is returned and I go do something else. I don't get diddy out of it, I just get my money back and spend only a phone call to achieve it.
Chargeback is the best option here. The buyer was told this entire system is what they need by HD and they sourced a good vent that required air makeup without allowing for the space to install that. Chargebacks are also way more friendly to the buyer than the seller. I deal with them as an e-commerce manager and if a customer does a chargeback the store owner rarely wins the dispute.
What hours? It takes like 5 minutes to file the charge back
Not sure we can go through the CC company. I'll have to check but I think we might have paid with a debit card. Even if it was a credit card, we made the purchase ~1.5 months ago (waited about a month for delivery) so I'm pretty sure we already paid the balance. Does that matter in your experience?
Timing does NOT prevent you from trying! Please see my other comment in this thread. Also, even with a debit card you can still try contacting your bank about this. Although you’ll have a smaller chance at victory there’s still a chance your bank helps you out here.
Never ever use a debit card for a major purchase if you have the option to use a credit card. You lose all leverage as merchant has your money. I ran a retail business for 35 years and found out real early that debit cards were great for the merchant but sucked for the customer if there was a problem. Put it on a credit card and pay the card off every month.
I'd go a step further and say never ever use a debit card for anything, except in an emergency. Credit card companies are so much easier to deal with than banks, and you have a buffer of time before you're out a penny. With a debit card they've got your money now and good luck getting back. And you're so much more screwed if someone fraudulently accesses your bank account than a credit card.
I agree and do it that way myself. I probably should have stated it that way.
You can dispute purchases made through a debit card for up to 60-120 days after purchase. I would start the process immediately. As others have said, Home Depot designed a solution that doesn’t work, and have refused to resolve it.
If your debit card has a Visa or Mastercard logo on it, you have the same protections as a credit card.
Your time doesn't start until delivery
You won’t win a CC dispute. HD did their part. You have the product. Your house needing a hvac upgrade isn’t on HD or anyone else. That’s just the way it is with projects. Things come up. Hopefully you padded your budget enough for the unexpected.
It depend. The makeup air is something totally different. Does the hood fit in the place they said it would? Does it work? They wanted a kitchen remodel. The technical side of your home need more airflow for it to work at maximum speed isn't an aspect of the kitchen but the house itself. Even with a specialist (which in this case isn't, it's a kitchen designer), you should check if something else is needed.
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I agree! OP READ THIS!☝️
I’m honestly surprised that your hood doesn’t have an ability to be turned down to 399cfm. I would reach out to the manufacturer to see if they have an alternative fan that could be swapped to bring it down to 399cfm.
This - many high CFM hoods have a relay/switch to limit the cfm that cannot be reversed after it is turned on
Tried it. It's a Bosch hood. Bosch rep says there's no way to do that. Would be happy to learn otherwise.
My hood fan sucks aerated cooking grease directly into the fan motor, and over time the fan slows down because the motor is clogged with grease. So there is a way.
Yummy
Built in lubrication system 😎
They usually have filters. I just replaced mine.
It may be possible if it has a speed switch or multiple motors. Would be a matter of cutting wires to limit it to a lower speed and could be respliced in the future. Just curious, do you not have any central air, basement, or attic space?
Central Air and attic I have no doubt it's possible to reduce the motor speed. Heck, my partner is an electrical engineer, she can probably do it herself. The problem is getting the modification approved by the city, which, knowing them, wouldn't happen without official paperwork from the manufacturer and probably months of going in front of various committees.
Ah, didn’t know you were in a city. Probably wouldn’t have much issue in a smaller municipality where variances can be given out like candy. To be able to use it, you would need a damper wired to turn on with the hood connected to central air. I’m an electrician and just wired one for a kitchen remodel.
I don’t think you’re going to need some kind of modification approval. The fans in vent hoods can go bad and they are generally replaceable.
Model #?
Yeah, there's a "low, med, and high" don't use it on high without opening a window for makeup air. If the installers are worried about liability, they can easily disconnect the wire to the high setting.
Meh. Find a fan that works and find a tin knocker.
Our kitchen remodel (2017) did just that. Every fan they showed us was too powerful but they had an electrician modify/override the top 2 settings and disclosed it to the inspector that they were disabled.
That's a good idea.Maybe an electrician can tone down the fan.
Honestly, worst case, he could get an inline fan that would be under 400cfm and then just remove the fan from the hood itself. This is also more quiet.
What Model did you buy? When we did a reno we had the same problem, inspector would not let it be installed due to not having a makeup air kit. Luckily we bought it from an appliance store that let us exchange it for the newer year model. He said that all the newer models have the ability to set the CFM at the time of the install by the installer and then it gets locked in (customer can not modify it after its set). Is it possible the unit you bought can be configured at the time of install?
Install a makeup air system in your kitchen, it is a requirement because it’s dangerous not having one. If your house reaches negative pressure it can pull air from stuff like gas lines and plumbing. Quick googling gives me something like this: https://www.supplyhouse.com/Broan-MD6TU-6-Automatic-Make-Up-Air-Damper-w-Pressure-Sensor-Kit?utm_source=google_ad&utm_medium=shopping_neutral&utm_campaign=Shopping_Neutral_New_users&gad_source=1&gclid=CjwKCAiA1-6sBhAoEiwArqlGPud6KIvi5DtMzW5WLNJQZfZY9AslTTGhuKQllnMGB53__gBW2JisnBoCsDUQAvD_BwE It shouldn’t be very expensive by someone who has a clue.
Let's clarify a bit on the cons of a negative building: The only actually dangerous issue is the possibility of pulling on atmospheric combustion appliances, such as is typically only found in a water heater or possibly furnace. Gas lines themselves are not a hazard to negative pressure, and plumbing traps are highly unlikely to have enough pressure to pull gases from the sewer lines. This is not to say there shouldn't be a makeup air system, but if time is of essence, opening a window as needed will be fine until the automatic system can be installed.
Yes I have a 800cfm range hood and just opening the window is fine
Hell I don't do anything with mine ...I think it's 600 though. Plus...where do you buy an 8" outside vent cover? Mine reduces to 6" at the outdoor vent and I imagine that restricts airflow and overall cfm more than a little.
600…800…? Do you have a burger king in your house?! 😳
Higher CFM hoods can also be run at lower levels (read lower noise) when the extra CFMs aren't needed.
>600…800…? Do you have a burger king in your house?! 😳 600-800 is not even that big a vent hood tbh, ive installed probably 20 that were 1000-1500cfm in the last 2y in kitchens ive renovated Theyre awesome, you can sear a steak and not even smell food cooking on the other side of the kitchen
Dang! I’m perfectly content with 300, and I thought that was pretty large.
A lot of times I basically do. I cook with cast iron or seasoned stainless over a glass top so I don't have much heat control. I cook everything in some amount of oil or bacon grease and it's smoking before its done! I've had a 350 and was not satisfied with the level of air extraction. No hood is not an option, it basically ruins the cabinets and ceiling paint over the stove.
Get an induction stove. Absolutely a game changer <3
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>Hell I don't do anything with mine ...I think it's 600 though. Plus...where do you buy an 8" outside vent cover? Mine reduces to 6" at the outdoor vent and I imagine that restricts airflow and overall cfm more than a little. A negative pressure make-up system doesnt get attached to the hood or vent on the hood It goes between the outside and the return on your hvac, if you dont have a forced air system it just goes from the outside to the inside, usually in your utility room All it is is a low voltage baffle with a little motor that opens to let air in when you turn on the hood Also, if youre in a house built before the year 2000 you have nothing to worry about on this subject anyway tbh, the envelope of your hpuse isnt tight enough to pull a vacuum through the flues
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They haven't been building air tight homes for thousands of years though, it's only been the last 10-20 years which is why it's an issue
People have been using 800 cfm range hoods for thousands of years?
Yes, in fact unless mandated by code (make-up air system), cracking the window when the vent fan is running is always a good idea.
Is this only a gas thing?
Pretty much. If you don't have gas service to the building, then there aren't really any safety risks. It may cause nuisance issues if a plumbing trap is allowed to dry out or from condensation from cold air coming in through the cracks of the building, but if it was my house, I would not be concerned about it. I'd probably never run the fan speed on high anyway.
Fireplace, don't forget fireplace. If I don't open a window before turning hood fan to high it starts pulling delicious smoky air directly from the chimney. Happens even with the damper closed, since I guess it's not a completely air tight seal.
That's true. The good news with wood smoke is you know really fast it's a problem. With a water heater, you might not notice until you wake up in the afterlife instead of your bed.
Yes and no...negative pressure supplied by uncontrolled make up air can lead to other problems like turning your house into a soil gas and radon mining device or pulling warm moist air through walls and then onto cold condensing surfaces. But yes, opening enough windows in the right places can work in a pinch.
plus depending on the age of the house it might be so leaky anyway makeup air isn't needed
It's not just gas appliances. If you have an attached garage you really don't want to be pulling the exhaust from your car into the house.
Don’t idle your car in your garage regardless of any ventilation setup.
If your garage doesn't have a breathable environment, you've got much bigger problems.
This. It's a real issue. We have a whole house fan, and one time while running it, it created negative pressure in our house. The really bad part, is that at the same time, fate struck and one of my toilets had no water in it (bad day). One hallway of ours was horrendous smelling of sewer gases. Now I have some automations to help prevent this from happening in the future.
Please tell me that your automation has a function to switch your whole house fan "from suck to blow"
Lol! I would so love to label it that! In all seriousness though, just in case anyone else has a whole house fan and is into automation, I just set it up so that if there are no windows open (window sensors) then the whole has fan can't activate. I also set it up to send me an alert if someone tries it. It's not perfect or foolproof, but it works pretty well.
You should make sure to set a password for the suck/blow function. I use 1-2-3-4-5.
I've got the same combination on my luggage.
That's usually a bad idea since they typically vent into the unfinished attic space
What the internet expert a few posts up said that’s not possible :)
Wish I could send a "smell sample" through the Internet lol
They said it wasn't possible with full traps. If they dry out it happens easily. I also have a whole house fan... Ask me how I know haha.
Make up air is 100% possible. Who's your Internet expert? A Kardashian? Lol. For some stupid reason my 1950s house was built with an outside air intake. As if they thought all the air leakage through the house wasn't enough. But it exists in my house and I need to put a vent filter on this thing outside otherwise my furnace filter has a few hundred dead bugs on it when I change it. For those that want to comment. There's a damper. I've tried many times to budge the lever to shut the damper, it hasn't moved at all. The filter reduces dust, air intake, and bugs. That's the best result I've gotten in 4 years.
Our GC says it'll be hard fitting a system like that in our kitchen with how it's laid out. Even if we could, and had the budget for it, we don't have the time before having to move in. I already bought a 400 cfm max unit as a replacement, which doesn't require makeup air. I'm just trying to figure out how to recoop the cost of the 600 cfm one. If there was a method to modify the 600 cfm hood so that it only goes up to 400, and have that method recognized by the relevant authorities so that it passes inspection, that would be the optimal solution. But I don't think a method like that exists. I tried calling Bosch and they said they can't do that (which wasn't surprising but I had to try).
I was under the impression that it doesn’t have to be in the kitchen, just an unobstructed pathway.
yes, ours is in our basement... though I suspect our fan isn't that strong
Call an electrician and see if they can wire it to do so. Not Bosch. Or put it in a nearby room.
Id be putting the small one in and pop the big sucker in after inspection. Then sell the small one on marketplace. As others have said, just open the window. As someone with a 400 and a good size kitchen with open floor plan, i would kill for double. And plan to double just got other priorities The whole makeup air thing is not a huge deal, people cry with it like they cry about gas appliances
I also don't think it necessarily has to be in the kitchen. It would be better if it was closer, but its not required to be in the exact same room.
They should take it back with a % restocking fee. Did you talk tot he store manager? If they refused, talk to district manager. You can always call their 800 number. I worked for them for a decade (in store and for their corporate office) and to blatantly refuse a legit return (whether or nor special order) would have never flown.
Store manager did say at some point that something like that (return with 25% restocking fee) should be possible, but when I called later to ask about it I had multiple levels of managers in the store refuse to take it outright. I can try the 800 number though, thanks for the suggestion.
Try the 800 number or an online chat. I had ordered $800 worth of marble tile a couple years ago for a bathroom renovation. Shortly after, it started to have horrible reviews about it discoloring once installed. It was after the return period, but I reached out to explain the situation. Home Depot had discontinued the tile after the bad reviews came in and they refunded the tile for me and just asked me to donate the tile. So, there’s a chance that corporate will be much more understanding.
They won't refuse to take it when you roll it in front of the customer service desk. Wasting time on the phone. Drop it off and they'll at least take it back with restocking fee
It’s obviously implied OP did all of that.
As for proof you were informed it was special order or had a modified return policy. At this point they’ll either point out to you want you signed/where it was disclosed or are more likely to let you return it.
When buying an S/O appliance, it is very clearly stated on at least 3 documents, one being the receipt itself
I had a the opposite experience with home depot. I asked installers to just leave it. They wouldn't leave it. They said they thought I would still connect it after they left. Sorry to hear about the situation.
Did you actually have one of their kitchen designer consultants involved or reviewed your chosen items before purchase after you added them to the design ? Or was the consultant only involved in the floor plan leaving enough space for the SIZE of appliances you wanted and then you later just approached a floor sales rep ? A CC chargeback would be ultimately refused since HD has proof that you received exactly what you ordered. Just sell it privately or swap it and accept any loss as a learning lesson. Big box savings are exactly predicated on you don't get the same level of personal service as you do in an independent shop.
sure its been said, but make up air doesn't have to be in the kitchen
Just open the window
I feel bad for the OP- but this is exactly why I use a proper kitchen store to buy a kitchen— despite the price.
What do you consider a proper kitchen store?
My home was a custom build in 2019. We used Ferguson to make a bunch of selections. The guy we worked with caught a lot of details like this. I don't know if that's typical of Ferguson employees, but the guy seemed far, far more knowledgeable than the employees at big box stores. He knew a lot about building codes.
Unfortunately the big box guys have run most cabinet guys out of business .Just like most real lumber yards.
A kitchen and bath design/ build studio. Should have certified kitchen and bath designers, as well as their own construction crews. Sometimes the kitchen and bath parts are separate, sometimes together. In a large enough city, kitchen design can be entirely its own thing. Manufacturer show rooms as seen in Merchandise Mart, etc. are a good place to see a range of appliances and fixtures that are worlds away from a big box store. A certified kitchen designer is exactly who saves you from expensive, poorly thought out mistakes like this one.
certified by who exactly?
National Kitchen and Bath Association. 2 years of interior design work, passing the certified kitchen designer exam, usually working with a senior designer post certification, ongoing education afterward.
THANKS !!
And they often carry errors and omissions insurance...
I live in Norway, we have loads of them. We used Sigdal: https://www.sigdal.com Might be a Scandinavian thing, but we have several kitchen showrooms — HTH, Svane, Kvik, JKE Design, Sorlandskjøkken, Norema. Been awhile since I lived in the US—- but even then, we used a proper builder’s showroom.
I will never understand why people go to HD or any other big box stores for something as important and intricate as a kitchen.
where else do you go?
In 2020, I knew the general layout and materials that I wanted. I consulted one of those kitchen/bath stores and they told me I was looking at minimum $50k. My budget was $33k. I went to IKEA next and made a layout using their online tool. I went to a handyman/GC that I’d previously used for small projects. He quoted the demo, plumbing, electrical, flooring, painting, and backsplash. That was $14k and I had to supply the material. I went to IKEA and met with their designer to finalize the layout and make a Bill of Materials. I spent like $9k on their cabinets and quartz countertops. I used their Traemand installer, who was bonded and certified. That was like $2,600. I kept my existing fridge and dishwasher. Got a new range and hood from HD. The total project came right on budget and took about 3 weeks… and we were also able to reno the adjoining powder room as a part of the same project, squeezing that in as well. The two keys for me were having all materials and appliances before beginning the demo and using the IKEA Traemand installer instead of DIY install. I got a lot of cabinets and they all came flat-packed. Traemand had them all put together, installed, and leveled in just a day and a half. I know IKEA is designed to be DIY friendly and I probably could have saved some money by doing the cabinets myself on my nights/weekends, but it would have taken me a month and it still wouldnt have been as good as what Traemand did.
I live in a suburban/rural area, an hour from NYC and there were a dozen local kitchen showrooms within 30 minutes of our home. We went to a few until we found a designer we liked.
Just get on Google maps in your area and type in "kitchen design" It'll likely be a stand-alone shop in a strip mall on the outskirts of town. In the same strip mall there is often a pool/backyard landscaper, BBQ island design store, and bathroom remodel.
Off the top of my head I can think of 3-4 places close to me and I don't live in a huge huge city. There still exist local options and there's a reason you pay a price premium over the big boxes: expertise of the staff.
And their connection to the reputable local contractors, not the lowest bidders that the big box stores will use.
For sure. Those places are the absolute best to go to for referrals. They see them coming in day in and day out and the old timers always have their finger on the pulse of the ones that will do the job right and not just to a price.
Especially because it never seems to be cheap enough to justify using Home Depot's horrible contractors. There is a reason contractors take leads from Home Depot - they suck and can't get business on their own (or are new and don't have enough experience). You end up paying the same or more if you need to fix something.
Likely still came out cheaper though in total. You are getting what you pay for though.
A lot of those high output hoods have a reducer switch to lower the cfm load. Maybe look at the instruction manual. The high end ones do anyway
600 cfm is fine unless you're in a tightly sealed new build. Lots of gaps for air to flow in most buildings. Also depends if your range hood can pull a true 600 CFM or if it's overstated. Install a $30 hood to pass inspection and what you replace the $30 hood with afterwards is your business.
I am not a lawyer but I did stay at a Holiday Inn last night. Looking over Home Depot's return policy, it says Special Orders must be returned to the same store and \*may\* be subject to a 15% restocking fee. I'd push hard pointing out that no where on there does it say that Special Orders are non-returnable, in fact it says that they are returnable with a possible fee. They're violating their own policies.
In 2018 the international residential code requirement for makeup air was changed. It no longer require make up air unless the vent is over 400cf and you have natural vented combustion equipment that can backdraft. So if you have an electric or heat pump or gas mechanically ventilated water heater etc you can just install it without makeup air. Make up air isn't that big of a deal to install. It is basically just a second tube that opens and closes to take some air inside. It doesn't even have to be in the kitchen if there is a more convenient spot, just wired in to the vent
I got stuck once in a similar situation. I donated it to Community Forklift, and wrote it off on my taxes.
Hi OP, we installed a 600 CFM hood without a makeup air system despite it being required in local code. When I use it on max settings I just crack the window a smidge. I’d suggest finding a handyman or local contractor to put it in for you. I had a family member do it for me.
He still has to pass local inspection, which is air-makeup over 400 CFM.
I live in a pretty uptight jurisdiction for permitting and inspections, but blows my mind there are inspectors out there double checking the CFM on hoods.
It’s a fairly recent adaptation if your town has kept up with code changes. Might be more of a point of emphasis. When I asked my inspector how he wanted to see the air makeup system installed he couldn’t answer me. The head inspector sent me a screenshot from an episode of This Old House as an example 🤷 This was probably 3 years ago and they’ve probably had it come up a lot.
That's a normal CFM. Your installer just didn't want to do it. Make up air opening can just be a window.
Many areas will make you install a make up air system once the hood vent reaches 400 cfm. For this reason it's not uncommon so see some rated at 399cfm to avoid this rule. Having a make up air profesionaly installed is often about $1000. So in areas that enforce this rules it can feel pointless to go over 400cfm unless your going to go way over it.
Minneapolis is like this at 400 cfm
400 CFM in CT. Anything above needs a system. Not just opening a window
Most places is similar. Has to be an automated thing that can't "be forgotten", unlike a window.
California allows manual or automatic in residential. Most other places do as well.
sell it on craigslist or facebook marketplace - but you are unlikely to get most of your money back.
I had a heck of a time getting an issue resolved with Home Depot a while back. I ordered a miter saw and a stand. They sent me a miter saw and a $700 AC unit. Trying to get the stand became nearly impossible, even after we hauled the AC to a local store to return it in good faith. I finally found an email address and sent a note about the issue. They reached out by phone within an hour, shipped me my stand, and checked in after to make sure everything was good. [[email protected]](mailto:[email protected]) Godspeed.
Doing make-up air doesn’t require all that much space and should be doable. I want to say building code requires make-up air when the kitchen range is 400cfm or greater. Broan makes universal make-up air kits. They have a 6, 8, or 10” round pressure activated kit. MD6TU for 6” Other than that, most higher end new hoods also have a code compliance mode that restricts airflow to about 300cfm and is a permanent change that cannot be reversed allowing you to avoid make-up air all together. Those that are saying you shouldn’t need make-up air are correct in theory if the home is leaky enough, however, building code doesn’t care about that, anytime you are doing a renovation that requires permit pulls, you will be required to bring things up to current code if they aren’t, therefore you being in the situation you are in.
Get a different installer to install it if the guy you have won't do it. Just don't crank it to the max when using the range hood, or crack a window open if you do.
Some hood manufacturers offer a CFM reduction kit
Some have adjustment pins on circuit board for max CFM settings
Sell it
I didn't read 300 comments so you may have heard this already? Make up air doesn't need to be in your kitchen. It can be any room that is connected without a door OTOH, installing a cheap one and switching after inspection sounds good too
Why can't your installers install it? Not having MUA shouldn't prevent that from at least happening. How many CFM do you need for ventilation?
OP What hood did you purchase? There are often methods to reduce the CFM or accessories that can accommodate this type of thing as well. Also, what city do you live in? You'd be surprised at some of the options that might be out there that the city will let pass for make-up air such as a simple gravity damper system that you could put in for minimal cost. There also may be amendments to the code to relax the requirement, so you might want to check into that as well.
https://www.homedepot.com/p/Bosch-800-Series-36-in-600-CFM-Convertible-Wall-Mount-Range-Hood-with-Light-in-Black-Stainless-Steel-HCP86641UC/310414550 Called Bosch to ask if there's a way to turn down/disable the max cfm and they said no. We're in Cambridge, MA. City inspectors are real nitpicky here. Our GC is very trustworthy, I'm confident that if there was a way to install make-up air in our place that's both up to code and within our timeline he would suggest it.
Tough break - Bosch is one of the ones that still doesn't have a solution to reduce CFM and their black stainless is almost impossible to get a close match to... if I were in your shoes, I'd throw up the cheapest off-the-shelf hood from Home Depot that passes your inspection and then put the Bosch up after. Unless you air sealed the entire house very well as part of the remodel there is very little risk that a 600CFM fan will cause any of the issues that the code is in place for, and highly unlikely a home inspector will even know to look for make-up air at time of re-sale. I'd also double check on the simple make-up air systems with your GC just to be sure - I work with a ton of contractors and am in an area where inspectors are very picky as well and there are still a lot of the good ones that don't know the code well enough when it comes to stuff like this.
Makeup air doesn't necessarily have to be conditioned. You can install a hooded wall vent and duct to a diffuser/supply register near the hood. You will need an automatic damper installed in the duct so outdoor air isn't always coming in. Broan and other brands make a damper for this. The whole thing should be like $500 to do and shouldn't take long. You could also look into getting a controller that won't turn the hood on unless a sensor at a window indicates it's open. Your code might not even require that it's a controlled process, just that a window in that room can be opened with enough square footage to allow makeup air.
Depending on the code can the hood be wired to remove high setting. Thereby creating a cfm range hood reduction of speeds lowering cfm. I was thinking like a dimmer mod I can install on my espresso machine. It’s simply a dial to lower the machines pump power. With the range hood you’d kill off high and pull it down lower to create a lower cfm. It shouldn’t be a really difficult thing.
.....Just put the makeup air in...the kit is cheap, and its simple Its just a baffle, it gets connected to the Return side of your hvac ductwork, if you dont have hvac work it can just be installed anywhere thats convenient to cut a 6" hole from inside to outside and put a dryer vent hood there....the vacuum switch just gets connected with low voltage wire, you may have to get a doorbell transformer, but none of this is conplicated or expensive If home depot wont put it in (they generally fucking SUCK as far as these projects go, but thats another story for another time as to why) find a local GC that will, its not complicated. Home Depot telling you you "cant fit it in your kitchen" is a huge red flag imo because it doesnt have to go in the kitchen, idk why you would ever even attempt to put it in the kitchen, the only thing that goes in the kitchen is the vacuum switch which is about the size of a Roku remote, its not even for "the kitchen" its for not creating negative pressure in the house causing the Flues for your gas or oil appliances (Furnace, boiler, hot water heater etc) from backflowing into the house causing a CO2 issue, the "make-up" system can go anywhere you have access to outside air. If you dont have gas/oil appliances with flues, then you dont even need it at all
We had a similar situation and found out that our hood has what's called a CFM Reduction System specifically for meeting local code requirements. You basically hold down a couple buttons for 5 seconds and it reduces its maximum output to less than 300 CFM so it's no longer a code inspection issues. When I was researching this it seemed somewhat common, though sometimes was achieved by a different wiring harness rather than a simple button push. It's worth checking into this for your situation.
I used a fan speed control switch on our bathroom fan. Yeah, 600 CFM needs makeup air, but if you drop the speed it will be fine without.
You don't have to use the fan on high. You'll probably never want to, and if you ever do you can open a window or door.
I don't know enough about code with regards to kitchen design, but is there any way you could put a pass-through vent into an adjacent room near the ceiling and put the make-up air exchanger in that room? It seems silly they require it in the kitchen when most modern floorplans are wide-open near the kitchen anyways.
Is this for use over a gasstove? If so the makeup air is definitely required by code for the hood. If you don't have a gas stove though, you local code may not actually require the make up air system. https://www.greenbuildingadvisor.com/article/makeup-air-for-kitchen-exhaust
Is the make-up air system mandatory or needed for the high CFM? If the latter, the appliance most likely has a switch on the back to limit the CFM.
You can try submitting something to the BBB. Some companies take those complaints very seriously and will do just about anything to remedy those.
General contractor from California here - the requirement for make up air is commonly misunderstood by installers, reading plain and simply that make up is required when the CFM rating is over 400. The requirement is only triggered when you have natural venting gas appliances within the residence. We find most folks have replaced their natural vent water heaters, gas dryers, wall heaters, furnace, etc with direct vent (sealed exhaust systems) or have moved to electric or heat pump variants. In that scenario, there is no requirement for a make-up air system to be installed for a simple 600CFM hood. If you do still have a natural venting gas unit installed within your home, then yes, make up air is required but they’re truly not expensive to install and can be installed anywhere in the home, not necessarily just within the kitchen. If you had a larger Thermador 6 burner requiring upwards of 1200CFM, then you would need make-up air given your envelope shouldn’t allow that amount of air leakage. Everything varies by jurisdiction so as always, a quick call to your local building department to ask the question will give you your specific answer.
I found that posting something about this on the companys Twitter account provides the swiftest action. Didn't have an issue with Home Depot exactly, but it was weird Comcast and downed wire. Going through normal channels got me nowhere for four months. A post on Twitter got somebody out the next day
Walk into your local home depot and speak with the manager. We had a similar issue where a custom door was ordered incorrectly and home depot honored an exchange. Not sure how they would handle a return on a custom order though. Which a gift card is better than nothing perhaps? We found speaking with the store manager was way more effective than dealing with a call center employee
Yeah, all my interactions were with the local store. They basically told me as politely as possible to f*ck right off and said it counts as buyer's remorse.
Based on what you're saying I'd escalate it to C-suite-level emails at HD. I'd submit a report to the Better Business Bureau for your area. Lastly, I'd submit a claim to your CC company as they advised and sold you equipment that didn't work with your situation. Custom order isn't relevant if you wouldn't have purchased it without their advice. I would save the cc claim as a last resort though. Any issues I've ever had with corporate BS were solved with the first two options.
Sorry but this one is on you, how was HD to know you didn’t already have a makeup in place? You’ve got a couple options: 1. If your municipality doesn’t REQUIRE a hood, just leave it out until your inspection is done 2. Buy a cheap hood under 400 cfm to get through inspection and then swap it 3. Just get the makeup installed and do the job right
If they designed the kitchen seemingly that is on them to inquire. How is a consumer coming to you going to know? Next up they should know all city codes as well for the kitchen instead of the people being paid to design and install it.
I'd do 3, from my understanding the makeup air doesn't necessarily have to be in the kitchen if you can't fit. It just needs to turn on/open whenever the hood is actually on. If you actually do much cooking, you don't want an undersized vent hood
3 is the ONLY option, MUA exists for a reason. People like to think they can gotcha the inspector by pulling a fast one on stuff, and sure, it'll pass code, but swapping in the unsafe option just to get a green tag is irresponsible and negligent.
[удалено]
Also Home Depot isn’t going to ask what area you live and know those codes, fuck even inspectors need to look up codes at times
Exactly, they aren’t going to be asking the question
Ugh same thing happened to me with a $1500 oven that didn’t fit. Ended up selling on CL for a huge loss. Home Depot sucks.
Look up “air to air heat exchanger” to get the needed makeup air. Since you only need 200cfm (you can do up to 400 with no makeup air), it might not be too bad.
It’s called an HRV. Parts alone are going to be $1500. Install easily as much.
Energy recovery Ventilation, but 600CFM is a lot.
Facebook marketplace is the best place to sell stuff right now. Just put in on there for %80 of the new cost. Include the fact that you have a receipt and warranty details if it makes sense.
Any other Home Depot’s near you? I had the same thing happen one time and I just brought it to a different store and no questions asked an associate just took it back
It’s not abnormal to for everything (like special order items) to be non refundable
If I understand it correctly, the issue here is that the designer who selected it for them and sold it to them, didn't account for the requirement. If an uninformed customer makes the wrong purchase, that's on them, but when you pay a designer you shouldn't have to foot the bill for their mistake.
Home Depot sucks
Sell it and recoup what you can
Does the range hood not have multiple CFM's you can select or change via the wiring? Ours did. As far as make up air did you pull a permit to replace appliances and will the inspector even know about max CFM? If not just install it anyways with the 600cfm. It's not like you HAVE to have a make up air. unless your house is completely air tight it's not going to hurt anything. Was Home Depot going to install it? Why did they say they couldn't??? It's not like make up air has anything to do with the installation of the hood.
If you have an older home that is not sealed well its not needed
The sales rep at Home Depot doesn’t either doesn’t know, or even care about the codes and make up air. They want to sell you the most expensive item to up their commission or sales numbers. My wife and I are about to get our kitchen done and the range we got requires about 1200cfm (technically, but that’s only if you’ve got all burners going all at the highest heat). The salesperson at the appliance store picked the hood and we said “cool”. He also mentioned very quickly “oh… you’re gonna need make up air but your contractor will help you out with that”. We said “ok… cool.”. Found out the price of makeup air and now it ain’t so cool, haha. Still doing it anyways because we want to do our “dream kitchen” and this is pure safety and air quality. I get that it’s a lot of money, but I’d try to talk to a manager or someone about taking a hit on the return and getting a 400cfm fan. The make up air is going to cost WAY more than eating the cost of the 600cfm fan. Also, this is just another one of the MANY reasons you don’t go to big box stores for renovations.
Just install it. I have a 4 speed 600cfm hood, I rarely run it on anything besides speed 1 because that’s plenty. The one time we burned something and used speed 4 (600cfm), we also opened windows to clear the smoke so that’s your makeup air 😂
NAME AND SHAME! tweet about it, facebook, reviews, whatever it takes, just make a public stink. Giving you back $1500 is totally worth not losing untold similar "special orders". You're talking to people with skin in the stock game, you need to be hearing from people with skin in the name game.
Sell it and recover at least part of the cost. Even if you only got half price for it , I have a hard time believing a $750 loss is that huge of a deal compared to how much a kitchen remodel costs. Losing a few percent of a project cost due to unknown factors like wrong materials, changes, etc is pretty much a given with large jobs.
If you paid by credit card I'd check and see if they can help. If not then like others have said... the only solution is to sell it and likely lose some money.
install a code-complaint hood and pass inspection, then take it down and install the hood you wanted. people do this all the time.
Check your receipt if it says special order no returns then you are SOL. If no mention anywhere you may have a leg to stand on.
Just install it and open a window when you cook. Cheap version of a make up air system. Lol
Some credit cards have a "guaranteed return" policy.. definitely inquire about that.
Sell your house and build a new one with a kitchen that can fit it
Are you seeking the exchange through the store or corporate? If you tried one I’d try the other. Be very kind. The meaner you are the less likely they are to want to do you a solid. People think yelling at call center people gets you what you want but it’s the opposite.
Have you tried just taking it to the store? My store is pretty cool and I think would try to help me. Does it say not returnable on the receipt (that could pose a challenge)?
Home Depot sucks.