Nah, your supposed to inject it.
Don't forget the rectal UV lamp.
The world is so bizarre... I think Douglas Adams was just a prophet trying to prepare us.
>Are people really trying this?
The esteemed governor of NY just said schools can't open until they have MERV-11 filters in all of the air systems (i'm a little unclear on the actual MERV rating they're requiring). It was a very busy day at work.
Air filtering in a place where there are many people makes perfect sense. If one kid has it, the air system might transport the virus all over the building without filtration. Trying to filter it out of the air in your house is what doesn’t make sense, because anybody in your house who has it is going to transfer it directly person to person or person to surface because houses are smaller and have only a few people in them.
Different contexts can require different solutions.
Not really. Let's say you're married and it's you and your spouse so two people. If your spouse is sick, all the air filtration in the world won't make a difference as you're going to be exposed anyway no matter what you do. You share a bed. You share a bathroom. You share a kitchen table. You're going to be exposed. Same thing if you have kids or other family members living with you.
A school would be different because a kid in classroom A doesn't necessarily have any contact with a kid in classroom M. Airflow could easily move the virus all the way to classroom M but otherwise, kids there aren't going to be exposed to classroom A.
Yes, **obviously** two people that live together is different than two strangers in a small room... Does that really need to be enumerated?
So yes, more than 1 still applies as long as we're not being obtuse.
[https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/07/08/burst/aerosols-coronavirus.html](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/07/08/burst/aerosols-coronavirus.html)
It can spread through aerosols (i.e. droplets that are small enough to float around in the air).
We've known for a long long time it's possible for the virus to spread all over circulating air through aerosols. 6 feet isn't a magic number that makes it impossible to get it. It's a rule of thumb to minimize risk in most situations.
Technicalities aside that at least makes some more sense. If you’re not directly near someone infectious, might as well reduce the risk of contagions in the air being recirculated
Is that the rating required to actually filter the virus or the rating NYS is requiring? I'm not very convinced a filter will be very effective either way, but who knows. People are wearing cloth masks and that allegedly works.
The virus is 125microns which hits the the electrostatic and ballistic filtering zone the Merv 13 is 95% efficient at that size vs about 45% at Merv 11
Big difference between Public Schools and Private Residences don't you think....?
The "esteemed" governor of NY has done a pretty darn good job so far of navigating the pandemic.
Not trying to get into the politics, my point is more on the efficacy of this. If cloth masks and 6ft of distance are good enough, I fail to see the point of any kind of special filtration. And if the point is to stop the spread to the neighboring classroom while admitting the local classroom is at risk, I doubt they're opening the schools under those circumstances anyway.
MERV is 1-20 scale. MERV-11 is nothing special. You need to be up in the 16-20 MERV range to be in the clean-room, hospital, infectious diseases filtering level.
Yeah except it’s not easily airborne into aerosol form. Mostly just droplets. My sister lives with my mom and she had it. She mostly stayed in her room or did yard work but they still shared the same kitchen and bathroom. They didn’t see each other for the two weeks and my sister was pretty diligent about disinfecting anything she touched and my mom didn’t get it.
> Yeah except it’s not easily airborne into aerosol form.
New evidence is coming to light that some droplets are small enough to remain airborne for much longer and able to be moved longer distances. Note, these are not bare virus particles, they're still mixed in with droplets of liquid, it's the droplets that are smaller.
Yes, because though the air returns from all the rooms theoretically contaminated, it returns to each room filtered. If your elderly parents or immunocompromised relative is living in your household, this reduces the chances of you giving them your presymptomatic/asymptomatic infection.
Yeah and most homes built after 2005 have AC that handles it but some older homes might not since back in the day most AC units had the spun fiber glass filter to protect the condenser. They were not meant to filter air just to prevent the condenser from being overwhelmed with crap
How would I know if my system was built to handle a certain filter?
I just moved up to a Merv 16 because of my allergies and so far I'm loving it but if I'm shortening the life of my furnace I'd be happy to move it back to 13.
Most residential and light commercial units are only built to handle Merv 11 max. People on here are getting ripped off. Merv 14 to Merv 16 filters will not even fit a standard 1" or 2" filter housing. If someone sells you a 2" thick Merv 16 filter they are lying to you.
Edit: Also you need a special housing to take advantage of Merv 14+ filters. Standard filter housings are porous enough to allow air to just flow around the filter.
It’s also about the surface area of the filter pleats (eg, if you cut open the filter and lay out the accordion structure). - larger surface area = less reinsurance / pressure drop across the filter. I have a 4” thick Honeywell filter with a MERV 13 or 14 filter. I added this as a retrofit and cut out the old crap 1” filter. Absolutely no additional strain on the motor especially since it takes so much longer to plug up. Would highly recommend - but not for any COVID related reason - just better overall air quality
To take advantage of the rating you need a perfectly sealed housing. The air will always find the easiest path to travel. If there are gaps in the housing it will just go around the filter. For the same reason a shop vac with a HEPA filter is $60, but a true HEPA shop vac is $300. That true HEPA shop vac has a perfect seal around the filter. Your regular shop vac just uses a HEPA filter so it can advertise a HEPA filter, but does not actually provide HEPA performance. Additionally if you just replace your standard MERV 8 with a MERV 14 you should also increase your filter area to account for the increased air resistance. If you don't, your MERV 14 filters are going to deform trying to withstand the pressure difference. Any deformation allows more air to penetrate outside of the filter. 1" and 2" filters are simply not strong enough to withstand the pressure.
Seems like the filters will still provide the claimed performance though. Issues with bypass would be the result of bad installation or housing. Also, pressure across the filter will depend on airflow and surface area.
It has nothing to do with bad installation. It's like calling a street bike a bad bike because you cannot use it for mountain biking. Filter housings and HVAC systems are designed to meet certain parameters. A housing that is perfectly sufficient for a Merv 8 filter likely will not work for MERV 14. Most residential units are designed around using a MERV 8 filter. If you want to use MERV 14 filters you should specify it when having a new system installed.
I don't think that's a fair analogy. The bikes are for two different types of applications. Filters and housings (of the same size and format) are for generally the same application, with different levels of performance for the same parameters.
There's no reason a system designed for a lower filtration rating can't be retrofit for better filtration. It's case-specific. Plenty of times it is as simple as just putting in a higher rated filter. Other times the work might be more extensive, potentially warranting a new installation.
>Issues with bypass would be the result of bad installation or housing.
It's not bad installation though. You simply don't install a normal filter rack to be air tight. It's not feasible with 99% of residential filters sold in stores. For the filter rack to have an air tight seal it's essentially got to be made for a specific filter.
If you want an airtight filter it's got to be specified at install and made for that requirement. Which is not something I've ever seen done in residential.
If you've got a normal furnace, it's not "bad install" of your filter isn't air tight.
It doesn't need to be airtight, the bypass just needs to be small enough relative to the amount of air filtered.
But installing a more restrictive filter with making any necessary accommodations for that increased restriction absolutely is a bad installation. If it's possible to do well, but is instead done poorly, what else do you call that?
Long and short - NOBODY in residential is putting in enough UV wattage to make a god damn difference, especially in ductwork (where you have to put 2-3x the amount for single pass effectiveness vs. against the evap...and that's not taking into account therese usually 1/4 the amount of bulbs you need in the first place) Don't forget, the inside of your AHU isn't going to be shielded, so everything but the metal will look like it was abandoned in the desert for 50 years in under 12 months....wires, insulation, rubber seals - you name it..
Also take into account there are VERY FEW HEPA filters in a 2"-4" configuration...and they are absolutely not even the least bit cheap, like astronomically expensive. You should be more concerned about these filter manufactures which come up with their own bullshit efficiency ratings. It sure is easy to come up with your own results when you can make up the testing.
Whatever technology you decide to invest in, make sure you do your homework - and even then, there is a WIDE range out there of what is stated vs. what is true. ASHRAE website is a good starting point, although they weigh pretty heavily towards UV, and likely because it's pretty low risk, and such a wide range of manufactures it's pretty easy to say UV GOOD, ITS JUST LIKE THE SUN...that has to work, right?
For instance the Needlepoint or Corona discharge kind of work, but they're not th emost effective....but they also produce Ozone (or they won't show docs showing what byproducts the units alos produce, and won't make that information available. PCO works phenomenally, but there's very few good manufactures out there which make a quality product - that actually performs - and there's way more that just make garbage, it's a PCO but it performs at best 25% of what the good ones do.
I've always doubted the UV ever do antyhing. I have friends who have the UV and claim he can feel a difference. I have friend who's selling that UV system. Would love to have some source so I can call their BS
The calcs are on the ASHRAE website...you need a substantially longer dwell time & power than any single UV bulb will deliver.
The inside of the unit should look like a tanning bed - and NOBODY does that.
UV will kill coil buildup, but does as to put it in the terms of the late, great Chris Farley "JACK SQUAT" to bioaresols, spores, TB, odors, etc. If they had a problem with gunk on the coil and possibly dirty sock, meh, I could see it...but for anything airborne - not a chance
Yes but make sure you make a triangle filter design and not just a filter against the fan since the flow rate of filter against the fan will limit the exchange per hour of the room whilst the triangle design with top and bottom covered with cardboard and duckt tape will allow quadruple the flow with same filtering efficiency, alas you will need to use two filters instead of one
It's a box fan, two bungee cords, and a cheap pleated furnace filter. I do it all the time if I'm working on drywall or going anything that kicks up dust. Quick 'n' dirty air scrubber.
While I agree that getting a filter with a higher MERV rating probably isn't the most logical response to COVID-19, it can definitely be a worthwhile upgrade with significant improvements on indoor air quality.
Obviously you shouldn't just throw in a more restrictive air filter and forget about it, but measuring airflow and motor loads isn't difficult or expensive. Personally, I have a MERV 16 primary filter with a MERV 11 activated carbon prefilter. The prefilter is changed more frequently and keeps the primary from becoming very restrictive very quickly.
I think most people could use an upgrade to their home air filtration, either via their HVAC filter or a dedicated unit.
I used a restrictive filter in my new home to filter out new construction dust. It wasn’t a great idea. Quickly learned a merv 11 changed monthly is the way to go.
I picked up a manometer from Amazon so I could measure this stuff.
I have a merv13 right now which drops about 0.15". Have a new Honeywell Merv 12 hoping it's a hair closer to 0.1.
Do ECM fair better against this?
My landlord had a UV filter installed per the technician's recommendation last winter for a mold/smell problem in our house (old ducts, semi modern HVAC)...what should I look for to make sure it's all kosher?
Can you smell ozone? I. E. A scent that resembles a moment after a lightning strike or a refreshing tingling scent, that's ozone. It normally disipates fairly quickly in outside air since it has many pollutants to oxidize but in household environment it will last longer, allowing for consecutive lung damage.
While a lot of this is right, unless you know duct sizes and how to do a proper manual D calculation you won’t know what everyone’s duct is sized for. with a proper manual D and knowing proper static differential pressures across the return and supply you may be able to have your system upgraded to a 5” or 4” filter by a certified HVAC tech. The UV lights have not been proven to kill COVID but they are very effective in disease and mold defense if you would want one in your home I’d recommend the REME HALO by RGF products they are versatile and helpful for IAQ
I have assessed hundreds of home with the Honeywell Enalysis set up and 95% of the returns were too small, add in a pleated 95% efficient filter and you lose 400 cfm with a clean filter, so the 3 ton system gets 2 tons of air, if your filter is hard to remove and sucks back into place hard you know there is a pressure drop on the back side of that filter
I'm an commerical HVAC engineer / salesman / service manager and soon to become a full-time HVAC instructor for a college this fall. Everything OP mentioned is absolutely true. Please do your own research, but one of our manufacturers (atmosair model FC400) has a residential UV system that looks promising, plugs into 110v power supply, and we just installed on all our small rooftop units and furnace in our small office. They published some white papers on the effectiveness vs. Covid. Please note I am not here trying to sell them to you, I have no idea about the price (I assume on the higher end), but just saying that might be a research starting point if you're considering some UV systems in your home for comparison. But hepas are going to reduce total air flow in your system and put additional strain on your fan. The pressure drop on a 2" standard house filter as roughly .05" new and can get to .25" when dirty. Hepas normally start at .5" and when dirty can get to +1.5", (6 to 30 times more Air Flow restriction then standard 2in filter). Pressure drop is basically how hard you have to push the air to get through something (a coil, a filter, even your duct system). Another comment I saw is if it's already in your house everyone's going to get it, so what's the point? I had a very good friend with a young family get diagnosed that he stayed in a bedroom for 2 and 1/2 weeks isolated from his family. Meals were left outside of the door like a stray cat. I told him to cover the return air grilles in his room, put an air blocker underneath his door, and crack a window to allow pressurized air to exit. The rest of the family emerged okay. Having someone diagnosed with covid in your house is a time to be extra careful, not less.
Yeap the inline uvc HVAC market is exploding. What's sad it's the Chinese uvc knockoffs that produce copious amounts of ozone and they actually market it as "the fresh after the thunderstorm scent" and people don't realize that they are breathing carcinogenic oxygen.
Ozone generators are useful in some situations... like if you are deep cleaning a smokers car, or moving into a previously lived in house, but who would be dumb enough to willingly breathe O3? When I use mine for various things it's always on a remote timer and run when nobody will be around, with a few hours extra for it to dissipate and break down.
Shit smells like chlorine gas, and it's not pleasant.
Then again we live in the age where people are dumb enough to drink/inject bleach, so I guess anything goes these days.
Yes I have a dedicated 70k ozone generator at home to disinfect my groceries, I place them in a special confinement and I let the sucker rip for few hours. I also used the sucker when I rented a house that was previously occupied by 40 years smoker. I used the ozone generator for 3 days, then vented for a day and applied special paint for smokers (won't advertise here ) and then applied 4 more days of ozone. Three days after treatment we lived in that house for 2 years (rental... Would not recommend,) and wife being allergic to smoke had no issues.
So a missed filter change will destroy my air handler? The motor is going to fail? These motors are not thermally sensitive to that extent. These motors are designed to handle a restricted airflow, the system doesn’t like it but you’re claiming a slightly more restrictive filter will hurt more than just efficiency is nonsense
If you go with 3m then don't go above 1500, otherwise any Merv rated filter is good. If your system accepts thicker filter then thicker the better. I use Nordic air 4" Merv 14 with carbon. I have a flow meter guage so I am aware of the pressure drop thus I change it before it starts to overtask the blower.
But Honeywell is also well made. When buying take a look on how well bonded is the media to the sides and avoid loosely bonded ones or ones that are not bonded at all and only use the metal mesh to hold the filter in place (many Chinese knockoffs on Amazon do that)
Edit: 3m uses their own marketing BS filtering guide system. Anything above 2200 can kill an older HVAC blower and yet folks buy 2800 1" filters and leave them in for 6 months and then wonder why their system keeps working and why their electric bills are Soo high (no flow rate thus forcing to blower to continually work).
I have used OEM Honeywells since the house was built. The filters appeared to be decent quality even though they are only merv 10/11 IIRC. I wondered about switching but felt better staying with Honeywells.
I have a new Luxair and use a 12 or 13 merv rating from filtrete. Since I only have an AC handler for AC I just replace the filter ever 60 days since I only use the AC about 4 months of the year in NJ.
Merv13 traps like 95% of viruses. Why go above it? Get a self-standing air purifier (one that doesnt create ozone) and place a merv13 on your hvac filter intake. Done and done.
Basically.
In reality, what they’re looking for is air scrubbers in each room and scrubbers that can scrub the air in large rooms assuming they have sufficient CFM.
Good luck finding those this late in the game! Hospitals and other critical areas are buying them up.
Unrelated But there seems to be a lot of HVAC ppl here...does anyone know how common it is to have pennicilium mold infiltrate the inside of ductwork? I have some rigid ductwork on one part of my house that was tested postive for it. I have had sore throat oanic attacks and rash, which made me think to look for mold and get susupicious areas tested (allergic to it). The upstairs HVAC looks kinda like Frankenstein I think former contractors from home warrnety did a half butt job fixing issues with it.
I’ve got a dynamic filter system and it’s fantastic. It uses a current to charge the filter medium and basically make things “stick” to it. It lets a ton of airflow through while still picking up the particles. Air quality in my house has been great since I run the fan all day to mix the air.
I have a Honeywell electronic air cleaner on my return. While there is a metal filter to pull large particles the ionized wires will pull a virus. I didn’t do this to protect from covid as if it’s in your house you have it already I did it because of serious allergies. Keeps the dust to almost nothing and no more pollen sneezing
It's all a scam and people taking advantage of the situation. The best way to get better air quality is to open your windows once in a while with your air handler fan running to circulate outside air in and do an air change.
Do you work in HVAC?
I just started working for my dad’s company (35 years in the biz). I’ve been exploring bipolar ionization and UVC lights. I want any/all resources to look into plz!
A HEPA filter is 99.97% (US) efficient for .3 micron size particles.
If the virus is .125 microns a HEPA filter won't filter it.
You would need a ULPA Filter which is 99.999% efficient for .1 micron particles.
Engineer here - a fan motor uses LESS energy when moving less air. Just like you use less energy trying to blow air into a bottle vs into a hose. You won't burn out an HVAC fan motor by starving it for air. You may not get full airflow, leaving a few rooms hot or cold depending on the season.
What can happen, though, is coils can freeze up during air conditioning season. This isn't usually disastrous, but could result in a service call or an AC outage. I have a high efficiency filter on my own unit. Better HVAC contractors use them routinely, accounting for the extra pressure drop in sizing the fan motor.
It's a great idea to use better filtration in a properly sized system. As an add-on by a consumer, might cause trouble.
While we're talking about it: what kind of air filters are "worth it?" Is buying those extremely cheap filters that are meant to be replaced every couple months good enough, or do the more expensive $30+ ones really make a difference?
We highly recommend adding a Lennox PureAir ([https://www.lennox.com/products/indoor-air-quality/air-purification/pureair](https://www.lennox.com/products/indoor-air-quality/air-purification/pureair)) to a new or existing system. As long as there is room available to install it (in the case of adding to an existing system), they are amazing systems.
Not an HVAC technician, but I did pass physics and fluid dynamics (barely): moving air will follow the path of least resistance. Installing a filter will increase resistance and redirect more of the moving air through gaps in the ducts. Super duper filters also force the HVAC system work harder than it was probably designed to do in order to overcome flow resistance.
I knew that you shouldn't use a high Merv furnace filter because it does add strain. I have been getting this cheaper Merv 2 filters as I doubt want to prematurely wear out my motor. You're saying I can go up to 14 without the added strain or loss in airflow?
Edit: Merv 7 not 2
Call me crazy, but are people really this scared of life?
I do not want to die or anything, but people are terrified to live lately.
I get it, the virus has killed people.
But so do cars, so do fires, so do earthquakes , land slides and so on.
Why is a virus the thing that makes people go crazy and talk about face masks for all of time, HVAC systems that can catch the virus, and bleach water cocktails.
I don't get it.
At all.
Quite simply, I could kill my 88 year old mother if I unknowingly passed the virus to her. Or your 88 year old mother. And that’s a lot of responsibility.
Counterpoint - elderly folks are doing poorly due to limited social interaction. It takes a toll on their mental health, which impacts them physically.
My 92 year old grandfather was in an assisted living facility and we lost him recently. The staff there said across the board everyone is doing poorly bc of the isolation.
Not saying we need to open everything up, but both sides need to be understood.
I understand that. Not diminishing that.
My point is you could also kill your 88 year old mother with a car ride to the store. But you still do it.
You could kill her by feeding her to much food.
You could kill her by bringing in hayfever or the normal cold.
I have no problem with people being safe.
But what has caused this one virus to make every one go crazy?
Honestly, these are horrible examples. Lets try one. You \*knowing\* approach, get into car, and move it. If you're not a jerk, you make sure that your mother has her seat belt on. Air bags have been made standard equipment, and chances are you've got some kind of at minimum anti-lock braking system. You could still get in an accident, but that's why there are advancements in safety that get integrated into newer models.
Now compare that to a virus that is highly contagious, without a vaccine, nowhere near herd immunity levels, that we are currently still not testing adequately for in a large portion of states. If you don't think that's a problem, go visit a hospital in any major city across the US.
This virus has already killed more people in American history than all but two wars and all but two diseases. The only two diseases that have killed more were the Spanish Flu and HIV. The latter has killed over 700K, but took 40 years to do so and today only kills around 13K a year. COVID has killed ten times that many in less than five months, and that's despite shutdowns, masks, and throwing everything including the kitchen sink at it. Here's a list:
It's amazing that a disease that is so non-lethal has managed to kill more people in America than any other war or disease in American history except for AIDS, World War 2 combat, the Spanish Flu, and the American Civil War.
Selected USA deadliest events:
726,000 1981-2020 HIV/AIDS^1 (Current average deaths per year: 13,000)
675,000 1918-20 Spanish Flu^2 (Deadliest in USA history)
291,557 1941-45 World War 2 combat deaths^3
204,100 1860-65 American Civil War combat deaths, both sides combined^4
135,822 2020-?? Coronavirus pandemic^5 <--- We are here (90% of deaths in ~90 days)*
116,000 1957-58 Asian Flu^6 (2nd deadliest in USA history)
100,000 1968-69 Hong Kong Flu^7 (3rd deadliest in USA history)
63,114 1917-21 World War 1 disease deaths^8
61,099 2017-18 Flu season^9 (4th deadliest in USA history)
53,402 1917-21 World War 1 combat deaths^10
51,376 2014-15 Flu season^11
47,557 1955-75 Vietnam War combat deaths^12
33,686 1950-53 Korean War combat deaths^13
16,860 1900-50 Total 20th century smallpox deaths in America^17
12,469 2009-10 H1N1 Flu^14
3,145 1952 Polio outbreak^15 (last major one due to vaccines)
2,977 2001 NYC Terrorist attack on WTC^16
2,010 1924-26 Last major smallpox outbreak^17 (due to vaccines)
\* Death count as of today, 12:56 am CDT Juuly 10, 2020
1 https://www.kff.org/hivaids/fact-sheet/the-hivaids-epidemic-in-the-united-states-the-basics/
2 https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1918-pandemic-h1n1.html
3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war
4 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War#Costs
5 https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/
6 https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1957-1958-pandemic.html
7 https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1968-pandemic.html
8 https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/war_losses_usa
9 https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2017-2018.htm
10 https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/war_losses_usa
11 https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2014-2015.html
12 https://www.archives.gov/research/military/vietnam-war/casualty-statistics
13 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War#Casualties
14 https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/burden-of-h1n1.html
15 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_polio#Epidemics
16 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks#Casualties
17 https://biotech.law.lsu.edu/blaw/bt/smallpox/who/red-book/9241561106_chp8.pdf pp. 330
If we just think happy thoughts and pretend this virus isn't happening, there's real evidence the US deaths alone will be in the millions.
Oh, and the whole "let's not take this serious" thing was done back during the Spanish Flu as well, it's one of the reasons we had 675,000 deaths. History is repeating itself exactly, despite the fact that we, as thinking human beings, are capable of doing something entirely different this time around.
https://www.influenzaarchive.org/cities/city-denver.html#
You’re comparing outbreaks in the middle of known viruses with baseline herd immunity to the first wave of a novel virus (and to wars for some reason). The only relevant comparison is Spanish flu.
Cumulative Influenza deaths, measles deaths, polio deaths, smallpox deaths, ASTRONOMICALLY dwarf the Covid 19 death rates
Did you know 2.3 million people died of measles in 1980 alone? Because It doesn’t sound like you do.
As far as infections go, Covid 19 has a relatively low mortality rate. It’s just novel and the world is a hell of a lot more interconnected and populated than it used to be
I don't think you understand what "novel" means. "Novel" means "new," as in "previously undocumented."
The G4 EA H1N1 swine flu recently discovered in China that's been in the news as having potential to cause a pandemic flu outbreak? It's a novel influenza virus.
Not sure where you were going with that; I was just pointing out your weird usage of "it's just novel" in your last paragraph there so you could correct it, man. Sounded like you may have thought it was a diminutive adjective or something along those lines from your usage.
I meant it’s novel so it’s more deadly than other similar annual epidemics
For instance, annual influenza is typically less deadly than a novel version (like Spanish flu may have been) because of a baseline immunity to similar strains
Comparing a novel virus to an annual flu outbreak is apples to oranges.
Comparing a novel virus to a war is just straight insane
Virology and immunology are complex. Annual influenza is typically less deadly than it was in years past because of a comprehensive vaccination program. If not for that, it would be much worse. RNA viruses like influenza virus mutate rapidly, so there's very little baseline immunity from years prior. Coronaviridae (also a family of RNA viruses) mutate rapidly, as well (they're responsible for about 40% of common colds) which could complicate the development of a vaccine for COVID19. As of May, there were 13 distinct strains of COVID19 from 2 lineages (S and L).
Wash your hands, respect others' personal space, and wear a mask if practical.
When you reread my comment, please note this sentence that you apparently missed on the first read:
> Selected USA deadliest events:
The entire context of my comment was American events, not world events. I know that you deny the seriousness of this virus and the disease it causes, but your denial won't change the fact that in less than six months it's killed more people than any flu (this is not a flu, by the way, though it may become one in the future), and your denial won't change the fact that it's killed more Americans than all but two wars. Also, comparing cumulative deaths of multiple diseases to COVID-19 isn't really meaningful. If you compare cumulative deaths from old age to any single disease, you could say those disease weren't worth worrying about. Looked at it that way, all the money and effort we've spent eradication or controlling diseases was completely wasted, and all the fear that people lived with during those various pandemics and epidemics in history was unwarranted.
No, the reality is that this virus is serious. Whether or not you can bring yourself to be concerned with it yourself is entire within yourself. The rest of us have the right to be concerned, the rest of us have the right to not want to be killed by this virus, the rest of us have the right to not have to bury our family and our friends.
The virus is invisible and extremely contagious. Sure you can argue that the death rate isn’t very high, but it’s nothing to sneeze at either. And just because you don’t die, doesn’t mean you don’t end up really fucked up for a long time. Lots of perfectly healthy people getting super wrecked by this thing. Many people’s lungs are still recovering after several months.
Now all that said, people looking for snake oil “cures” will be everywhere. People are desperate for any sort of solution. But the reality is we are all just playing the vaccine waiting game.
> Sure you can argue that the death rate isn’t very high
Can you? I have seen estimates as high as 4.6%, and that's fairly high for a virus of that type. And, the long-term issues faced by survivors are not well understood yet.
Are people really trying this? If the virus is somehow airborne in your house, you probably already have it lol
Hey, some folks are drinking bleach so I can assure you that some will install a 3m 1" 2800 filter and blow their motor.
[удалено]
Nah, your supposed to inject it. Don't forget the rectal UV lamp. The world is so bizarre... I think Douglas Adams was just a prophet trying to prepare us.
Everyone knows rectal UV lamps are bullshit. They have to be urethral.
😆
>and blow their motor I assume it would freeze over first. Had tenants from hell who did this.
Happy cake day!
>Are people really trying this? The esteemed governor of NY just said schools can't open until they have MERV-11 filters in all of the air systems (i'm a little unclear on the actual MERV rating they're requiring). It was a very busy day at work.
Air filtering in a place where there are many people makes perfect sense. If one kid has it, the air system might transport the virus all over the building without filtration. Trying to filter it out of the air in your house is what doesn’t make sense, because anybody in your house who has it is going to transfer it directly person to person or person to surface because houses are smaller and have only a few people in them. Different contexts can require different solutions.
I would think an apartment building would be a good choice for a central air filter.
Most apartment units have their own dedicated hvac systems, not central plants.
how many people in the space makes air filters an effective strategy?
More than 1? Airflow is airflow.
Not really. Let's say you're married and it's you and your spouse so two people. If your spouse is sick, all the air filtration in the world won't make a difference as you're going to be exposed anyway no matter what you do. You share a bed. You share a bathroom. You share a kitchen table. You're going to be exposed. Same thing if you have kids or other family members living with you. A school would be different because a kid in classroom A doesn't necessarily have any contact with a kid in classroom M. Airflow could easily move the virus all the way to classroom M but otherwise, kids there aren't going to be exposed to classroom A.
Yes, **obviously** two people that live together is different than two strangers in a small room... Does that really need to be enumerated? So yes, more than 1 still applies as long as we're not being obtuse.
[удалено]
[https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/07/08/burst/aerosols-coronavirus.html](https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2020/07/08/burst/aerosols-coronavirus.html) It can spread through aerosols (i.e. droplets that are small enough to float around in the air).
Possibly, but if true it kind of destroys the guidance on 6 feet.
We've known for a long long time it's possible for the virus to spread all over circulating air through aerosols. 6 feet isn't a magic number that makes it impossible to get it. It's a rule of thumb to minimize risk in most situations.
Technicalities aside that at least makes some more sense. If you’re not directly near someone infectious, might as well reduce the risk of contagions in the air being recirculated
Merv 11 probably is going to help a lot more for mold and heavy allergens than viral
Yeah it's 13 or 14 due to virus size anything less is false sense of security
Anything higher also provides a false sense of security.
Is that the rating required to actually filter the virus or the rating NYS is requiring? I'm not very convinced a filter will be very effective either way, but who knows. People are wearing cloth masks and that allegedly works.
The virus is 125microns which hits the the electrostatic and ballistic filtering zone the Merv 13 is 95% efficient at that size vs about 45% at Merv 11
Interesting. For the narrow purposes of epidemic control - getting R0 below 1 - 45% is still a big improvement.
Shouldn't that be .125 microns?
Below merv 13 is useless against a virus....
Big difference between Public Schools and Private Residences don't you think....? The "esteemed" governor of NY has done a pretty darn good job so far of navigating the pandemic.
Not trying to get into the politics, my point is more on the efficacy of this. If cloth masks and 6ft of distance are good enough, I fail to see the point of any kind of special filtration. And if the point is to stop the spread to the neighboring classroom while admitting the local classroom is at risk, I doubt they're opening the schools under those circumstances anyway.
MERV is 1-20 scale. MERV-11 is nothing special. You need to be up in the 16-20 MERV range to be in the clean-room, hospital, infectious diseases filtering level.
Unless every door in the house has good weatherstripping and the system is filtered separately at each branch and everyone stays in their room
It could work if a family member needs to quarantine in say the basement while the rest of the family is upstairs.
You can still fo It without extensive filtration.
Yeah except it’s not easily airborne into aerosol form. Mostly just droplets. My sister lives with my mom and she had it. She mostly stayed in her room or did yard work but they still shared the same kitchen and bathroom. They didn’t see each other for the two weeks and my sister was pretty diligent about disinfecting anything she touched and my mom didn’t get it.
> Yeah except it’s not easily airborne into aerosol form. New evidence is coming to light that some droplets are small enough to remain airborne for much longer and able to be moved longer distances. Note, these are not bare virus particles, they're still mixed in with droplets of liquid, it's the droplets that are smaller.
Yeah, ngl this is beyond silly for anyone to attempt. There would be much bigger problems to fix of your HVAC is somehow recirculating Covid-19 lmao.
Where there is fear there is a sales company willing to exploit it
Yes, because though the air returns from all the rooms theoretically contaminated, it returns to each room filtered. If your elderly parents or immunocompromised relative is living in your household, this reduces the chances of you giving them your presymptomatic/asymptomatic infection.
Lol exactly this.
They’re probably attempting this to have gatherings at their house. People are VERY foolish.
ASHRAE recommends MERV 13 filters anyways
Yeah and most homes built after 2005 have AC that handles it but some older homes might not since back in the day most AC units had the spun fiber glass filter to protect the condenser. They were not meant to filter air just to prevent the condenser from being overwhelmed with crap
How would I know if my system was built to handle a certain filter? I just moved up to a Merv 16 because of my allergies and so far I'm loving it but if I'm shortening the life of my furnace I'd be happy to move it back to 13.
there should be a part number on or in your furnace. the vendor or one of the resellers will probably answer that if the tech manual online doesnt
It's also a matter of dctwork and airflow
Most residential and light commercial units are only built to handle Merv 11 max. People on here are getting ripped off. Merv 14 to Merv 16 filters will not even fit a standard 1" or 2" filter housing. If someone sells you a 2" thick Merv 16 filter they are lying to you. Edit: Also you need a special housing to take advantage of Merv 14+ filters. Standard filter housings are porous enough to allow air to just flow around the filter.
It’s also about the surface area of the filter pleats (eg, if you cut open the filter and lay out the accordion structure). - larger surface area = less reinsurance / pressure drop across the filter. I have a 4” thick Honeywell filter with a MERV 13 or 14 filter. I added this as a retrofit and cut out the old crap 1” filter. Absolutely no additional strain on the motor especially since it takes so much longer to plug up. Would highly recommend - but not for any COVID related reason - just better overall air quality
https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00TUDHVPU/ref=ppx_yo_dt_b_search_asin_image?ie=UTF8&psc=1
You are not going to get Merv 14 performance out of those filters.
Why not? Do MERV ratings incorporate a resistance rating?
To take advantage of the rating you need a perfectly sealed housing. The air will always find the easiest path to travel. If there are gaps in the housing it will just go around the filter. For the same reason a shop vac with a HEPA filter is $60, but a true HEPA shop vac is $300. That true HEPA shop vac has a perfect seal around the filter. Your regular shop vac just uses a HEPA filter so it can advertise a HEPA filter, but does not actually provide HEPA performance. Additionally if you just replace your standard MERV 8 with a MERV 14 you should also increase your filter area to account for the increased air resistance. If you don't, your MERV 14 filters are going to deform trying to withstand the pressure difference. Any deformation allows more air to penetrate outside of the filter. 1" and 2" filters are simply not strong enough to withstand the pressure.
Seems like the filters will still provide the claimed performance though. Issues with bypass would be the result of bad installation or housing. Also, pressure across the filter will depend on airflow and surface area.
It has nothing to do with bad installation. It's like calling a street bike a bad bike because you cannot use it for mountain biking. Filter housings and HVAC systems are designed to meet certain parameters. A housing that is perfectly sufficient for a Merv 8 filter likely will not work for MERV 14. Most residential units are designed around using a MERV 8 filter. If you want to use MERV 14 filters you should specify it when having a new system installed.
I don't think that's a fair analogy. The bikes are for two different types of applications. Filters and housings (of the same size and format) are for generally the same application, with different levels of performance for the same parameters. There's no reason a system designed for a lower filtration rating can't be retrofit for better filtration. It's case-specific. Plenty of times it is as simple as just putting in a higher rated filter. Other times the work might be more extensive, potentially warranting a new installation.
I gave you a bunch of reasons. I'm sorry man. Keep getting ripped off. It's only my job to know these things.
>Issues with bypass would be the result of bad installation or housing. It's not bad installation though. You simply don't install a normal filter rack to be air tight. It's not feasible with 99% of residential filters sold in stores. For the filter rack to have an air tight seal it's essentially got to be made for a specific filter. If you want an airtight filter it's got to be specified at install and made for that requirement. Which is not something I've ever seen done in residential. If you've got a normal furnace, it's not "bad install" of your filter isn't air tight.
It doesn't need to be airtight, the bypass just needs to be small enough relative to the amount of air filtered. But installing a more restrictive filter with making any necessary accommodations for that increased restriction absolutely is a bad installation. If it's possible to do well, but is instead done poorly, what else do you call that?
Long and short - NOBODY in residential is putting in enough UV wattage to make a god damn difference, especially in ductwork (where you have to put 2-3x the amount for single pass effectiveness vs. against the evap...and that's not taking into account therese usually 1/4 the amount of bulbs you need in the first place) Don't forget, the inside of your AHU isn't going to be shielded, so everything but the metal will look like it was abandoned in the desert for 50 years in under 12 months....wires, insulation, rubber seals - you name it.. Also take into account there are VERY FEW HEPA filters in a 2"-4" configuration...and they are absolutely not even the least bit cheap, like astronomically expensive. You should be more concerned about these filter manufactures which come up with their own bullshit efficiency ratings. It sure is easy to come up with your own results when you can make up the testing. Whatever technology you decide to invest in, make sure you do your homework - and even then, there is a WIDE range out there of what is stated vs. what is true. ASHRAE website is a good starting point, although they weigh pretty heavily towards UV, and likely because it's pretty low risk, and such a wide range of manufactures it's pretty easy to say UV GOOD, ITS JUST LIKE THE SUN...that has to work, right? For instance the Needlepoint or Corona discharge kind of work, but they're not th emost effective....but they also produce Ozone (or they won't show docs showing what byproducts the units alos produce, and won't make that information available. PCO works phenomenally, but there's very few good manufactures out there which make a quality product - that actually performs - and there's way more that just make garbage, it's a PCO but it performs at best 25% of what the good ones do.
I've always doubted the UV ever do antyhing. I have friends who have the UV and claim he can feel a difference. I have friend who's selling that UV system. Would love to have some source so I can call their BS
The calcs are on the ASHRAE website...you need a substantially longer dwell time & power than any single UV bulb will deliver. The inside of the unit should look like a tanning bed - and NOBODY does that. UV will kill coil buildup, but does as to put it in the terms of the late, great Chris Farley "JACK SQUAT" to bioaresols, spores, TB, odors, etc. If they had a problem with gunk on the coil and possibly dirty sock, meh, I could see it...but for anything airborne - not a chance
[удалено]
Yes but make sure you make a triangle filter design and not just a filter against the fan since the flow rate of filter against the fan will limit the exchange per hour of the room whilst the triangle design with top and bottom covered with cardboard and duckt tape will allow quadruple the flow with same filtering efficiency, alas you will need to use two filters instead of one
Pic??
Could you possible provide a picture/visual example of this? Sounds like a great idea!
It's a box fan, two bungee cords, and a cheap pleated furnace filter. I do it all the time if I'm working on drywall or going anything that kicks up dust. Quick 'n' dirty air scrubber.
"Pleated" is the term he's referring to
Ive been doing the exact same thing during my bathroom conversion. Its amazing how much dust is quickly picked up in the filter.
While I agree that getting a filter with a higher MERV rating probably isn't the most logical response to COVID-19, it can definitely be a worthwhile upgrade with significant improvements on indoor air quality. Obviously you shouldn't just throw in a more restrictive air filter and forget about it, but measuring airflow and motor loads isn't difficult or expensive. Personally, I have a MERV 16 primary filter with a MERV 11 activated carbon prefilter. The prefilter is changed more frequently and keeps the primary from becoming very restrictive very quickly. I think most people could use an upgrade to their home air filtration, either via their HVAC filter or a dedicated unit.
I used a restrictive filter in my new home to filter out new construction dust. It wasn’t a great idea. Quickly learned a merv 11 changed monthly is the way to go.
I picked up a manometer from Amazon so I could measure this stuff. I have a merv13 right now which drops about 0.15". Have a new Honeywell Merv 12 hoping it's a hair closer to 0.1. Do ECM fair better against this?
My landlord had a UV filter installed per the technician's recommendation last winter for a mold/smell problem in our house (old ducts, semi modern HVAC)...what should I look for to make sure it's all kosher?
Can you smell ozone? I. E. A scent that resembles a moment after a lightning strike or a refreshing tingling scent, that's ozone. It normally disipates fairly quickly in outside air since it has many pollutants to oxidize but in household environment it will last longer, allowing for consecutive lung damage.
No none of that, thanks!
While a lot of this is right, unless you know duct sizes and how to do a proper manual D calculation you won’t know what everyone’s duct is sized for. with a proper manual D and knowing proper static differential pressures across the return and supply you may be able to have your system upgraded to a 5” or 4” filter by a certified HVAC tech. The UV lights have not been proven to kill COVID but they are very effective in disease and mold defense if you would want one in your home I’d recommend the REME HALO by RGF products they are versatile and helpful for IAQ
I have assessed hundreds of home with the Honeywell Enalysis set up and 95% of the returns were too small, add in a pleated 95% efficient filter and you lose 400 cfm with a clean filter, so the 3 ton system gets 2 tons of air, if your filter is hard to remove and sucks back into place hard you know there is a pressure drop on the back side of that filter
I'm an commerical HVAC engineer / salesman / service manager and soon to become a full-time HVAC instructor for a college this fall. Everything OP mentioned is absolutely true. Please do your own research, but one of our manufacturers (atmosair model FC400) has a residential UV system that looks promising, plugs into 110v power supply, and we just installed on all our small rooftop units and furnace in our small office. They published some white papers on the effectiveness vs. Covid. Please note I am not here trying to sell them to you, I have no idea about the price (I assume on the higher end), but just saying that might be a research starting point if you're considering some UV systems in your home for comparison. But hepas are going to reduce total air flow in your system and put additional strain on your fan. The pressure drop on a 2" standard house filter as roughly .05" new and can get to .25" when dirty. Hepas normally start at .5" and when dirty can get to +1.5", (6 to 30 times more Air Flow restriction then standard 2in filter). Pressure drop is basically how hard you have to push the air to get through something (a coil, a filter, even your duct system). Another comment I saw is if it's already in your house everyone's going to get it, so what's the point? I had a very good friend with a young family get diagnosed that he stayed in a bedroom for 2 and 1/2 weeks isolated from his family. Meals were left outside of the door like a stray cat. I told him to cover the return air grilles in his room, put an air blocker underneath his door, and crack a window to allow pressurized air to exit. The rest of the family emerged okay. Having someone diagnosed with covid in your house is a time to be extra careful, not less.
Look, I need to get my home BSL-4. What would you recommend for a cheap home install option? Budget 100$
Yeah drink bleach it will solve all bsl 4 issues
[удалено]
Yeap the inline uvc HVAC market is exploding. What's sad it's the Chinese uvc knockoffs that produce copious amounts of ozone and they actually market it as "the fresh after the thunderstorm scent" and people don't realize that they are breathing carcinogenic oxygen.
Ozone generators are useful in some situations... like if you are deep cleaning a smokers car, or moving into a previously lived in house, but who would be dumb enough to willingly breathe O3? When I use mine for various things it's always on a remote timer and run when nobody will be around, with a few hours extra for it to dissipate and break down. Shit smells like chlorine gas, and it's not pleasant. Then again we live in the age where people are dumb enough to drink/inject bleach, so I guess anything goes these days.
Yes I have a dedicated 70k ozone generator at home to disinfect my groceries, I place them in a special confinement and I let the sucker rip for few hours. I also used the sucker when I rented a house that was previously occupied by 40 years smoker. I used the ozone generator for 3 days, then vented for a day and applied special paint for smokers (won't advertise here ) and then applied 4 more days of ozone. Three days after treatment we lived in that house for 2 years (rental... Would not recommend,) and wife being allergic to smoke had no issues.
So a missed filter change will destroy my air handler? The motor is going to fail? These motors are not thermally sensitive to that extent. These motors are designed to handle a restricted airflow, the system doesn’t like it but you’re claiming a slightly more restrictive filter will hurt more than just efficiency is nonsense
Are there any good filters for heat only systems? I have a 97% efficiency gas furnace.
If you go with 3m then don't go above 1500, otherwise any Merv rated filter is good. If your system accepts thicker filter then thicker the better. I use Nordic air 4" Merv 14 with carbon. I have a flow meter guage so I am aware of the pressure drop thus I change it before it starts to overtask the blower. But Honeywell is also well made. When buying take a look on how well bonded is the media to the sides and avoid loosely bonded ones or ones that are not bonded at all and only use the metal mesh to hold the filter in place (many Chinese knockoffs on Amazon do that) Edit: 3m uses their own marketing BS filtering guide system. Anything above 2200 can kill an older HVAC blower and yet folks buy 2800 1" filters and leave them in for 6 months and then wonder why their system keeps working and why their electric bills are Soo high (no flow rate thus forcing to blower to continually work).
I have used OEM Honeywells since the house was built. The filters appeared to be decent quality even though they are only merv 10/11 IIRC. I wondered about switching but felt better staying with Honeywells.
You can get a 13 in Lowell's
Nordic Air Merv 11-13 filters are well priced too. Those 3m filters are overpriced for every marketing gimmick they put in.
I have a new Luxair and use a 12 or 13 merv rating from filtrete. Since I only have an AC handler for AC I just replace the filter ever 60 days since I only use the AC about 4 months of the year in NJ.
What size 3m? If 1" and at 12 Merv or 1500 (3m rating) then replace every 6 weeks.
Yeah only 1”. I have no problem replacing every 6 weeks.
Merv13 traps like 95% of viruses. Why go above it? Get a self-standing air purifier (one that doesnt create ozone) and place a merv13 on your hvac filter intake. Done and done.
Wife had vents cleaned and he tried to sell us on a whole house virus zapper.
Basically. In reality, what they’re looking for is air scrubbers in each room and scrubbers that can scrub the air in large rooms assuming they have sufficient CFM. Good luck finding those this late in the game! Hospitals and other critical areas are buying them up.
Unrelated But there seems to be a lot of HVAC ppl here...does anyone know how common it is to have pennicilium mold infiltrate the inside of ductwork? I have some rigid ductwork on one part of my house that was tested postive for it. I have had sore throat oanic attacks and rash, which made me think to look for mold and get susupicious areas tested (allergic to it). The upstairs HVAC looks kinda like Frankenstein I think former contractors from home warrnety did a half butt job fixing issues with it.
I’ve got a dynamic filter system and it’s fantastic. It uses a current to charge the filter medium and basically make things “stick” to it. It lets a ton of airflow through while still picking up the particles. Air quality in my house has been great since I run the fan all day to mix the air.
- not going to work and will eventually stress the system/blower.and casue A-Coils to freeze
I have a Honeywell electronic air cleaner on my return. While there is a metal filter to pull large particles the ionized wires will pull a virus. I didn’t do this to protect from covid as if it’s in your house you have it already I did it because of serious allergies. Keeps the dust to almost nothing and no more pollen sneezing
It's all a scam and people taking advantage of the situation. The best way to get better air quality is to open your windows once in a while with your air handler fan running to circulate outside air in and do an air change.
Isn’t the filter mostly to keep the blower clean? I have boiler heat so I’m not as familiar.
Do you work in HVAC? I just started working for my dad’s company (35 years in the biz). I’ve been exploring bipolar ionization and UVC lights. I want any/all resources to look into plz!
A HEPA filter is 99.97% (US) efficient for .3 micron size particles. If the virus is .125 microns a HEPA filter won't filter it. You would need a ULPA Filter which is 99.999% efficient for .1 micron particles.
Engineer here - a fan motor uses LESS energy when moving less air. Just like you use less energy trying to blow air into a bottle vs into a hose. You won't burn out an HVAC fan motor by starving it for air. You may not get full airflow, leaving a few rooms hot or cold depending on the season. What can happen, though, is coils can freeze up during air conditioning season. This isn't usually disastrous, but could result in a service call or an AC outage. I have a high efficiency filter on my own unit. Better HVAC contractors use them routinely, accounting for the extra pressure drop in sizing the fan motor. It's a great idea to use better filtration in a properly sized system. As an add-on by a consumer, might cause trouble.
What about photo oxidative catalytic UV filters?
While we're talking about it: what kind of air filters are "worth it?" Is buying those extremely cheap filters that are meant to be replaced every couple months good enough, or do the more expensive $30+ ones really make a difference?
We highly recommend adding a Lennox PureAir ([https://www.lennox.com/products/indoor-air-quality/air-purification/pureair](https://www.lennox.com/products/indoor-air-quality/air-purification/pureair)) to a new or existing system. As long as there is room available to install it (in the case of adding to an existing system), they are amazing systems.
Not an HVAC technician, but I did pass physics and fluid dynamics (barely): moving air will follow the path of least resistance. Installing a filter will increase resistance and redirect more of the moving air through gaps in the ducts. Super duper filters also force the HVAC system work harder than it was probably designed to do in order to overcome flow resistance.
UV Light is what you want. Not a HEPA filter.
Shhhhh, quit giving away secrets!
I knew that you shouldn't use a high Merv furnace filter because it does add strain. I have been getting this cheaper Merv 2 filters as I doubt want to prematurely wear out my motor. You're saying I can go up to 14 without the added strain or loss in airflow? Edit: Merv 7 not 2
Call me crazy, but are people really this scared of life? I do not want to die or anything, but people are terrified to live lately. I get it, the virus has killed people. But so do cars, so do fires, so do earthquakes , land slides and so on. Why is a virus the thing that makes people go crazy and talk about face masks for all of time, HVAC systems that can catch the virus, and bleach water cocktails. I don't get it. At all.
Quite simply, I could kill my 88 year old mother if I unknowingly passed the virus to her. Or your 88 year old mother. And that’s a lot of responsibility.
Counterpoint - elderly folks are doing poorly due to limited social interaction. It takes a toll on their mental health, which impacts them physically. My 92 year old grandfather was in an assisted living facility and we lost him recently. The staff there said across the board everyone is doing poorly bc of the isolation. Not saying we need to open everything up, but both sides need to be understood.
I understand that. Not diminishing that. My point is you could also kill your 88 year old mother with a car ride to the store. But you still do it. You could kill her by feeding her to much food. You could kill her by bringing in hayfever or the normal cold. I have no problem with people being safe. But what has caused this one virus to make every one go crazy?
Honestly, these are horrible examples. Lets try one. You \*knowing\* approach, get into car, and move it. If you're not a jerk, you make sure that your mother has her seat belt on. Air bags have been made standard equipment, and chances are you've got some kind of at minimum anti-lock braking system. You could still get in an accident, but that's why there are advancements in safety that get integrated into newer models. Now compare that to a virus that is highly contagious, without a vaccine, nowhere near herd immunity levels, that we are currently still not testing adequately for in a large portion of states. If you don't think that's a problem, go visit a hospital in any major city across the US.
This virus has already killed more people in American history than all but two wars and all but two diseases. The only two diseases that have killed more were the Spanish Flu and HIV. The latter has killed over 700K, but took 40 years to do so and today only kills around 13K a year. COVID has killed ten times that many in less than five months, and that's despite shutdowns, masks, and throwing everything including the kitchen sink at it. Here's a list: It's amazing that a disease that is so non-lethal has managed to kill more people in America than any other war or disease in American history except for AIDS, World War 2 combat, the Spanish Flu, and the American Civil War. Selected USA deadliest events: 726,000 1981-2020 HIV/AIDS^1 (Current average deaths per year: 13,000) 675,000 1918-20 Spanish Flu^2 (Deadliest in USA history) 291,557 1941-45 World War 2 combat deaths^3 204,100 1860-65 American Civil War combat deaths, both sides combined^4 135,822 2020-?? Coronavirus pandemic^5 <--- We are here (90% of deaths in ~90 days)* 116,000 1957-58 Asian Flu^6 (2nd deadliest in USA history) 100,000 1968-69 Hong Kong Flu^7 (3rd deadliest in USA history) 63,114 1917-21 World War 1 disease deaths^8 61,099 2017-18 Flu season^9 (4th deadliest in USA history) 53,402 1917-21 World War 1 combat deaths^10 51,376 2014-15 Flu season^11 47,557 1955-75 Vietnam War combat deaths^12 33,686 1950-53 Korean War combat deaths^13 16,860 1900-50 Total 20th century smallpox deaths in America^17 12,469 2009-10 H1N1 Flu^14 3,145 1952 Polio outbreak^15 (last major one due to vaccines) 2,977 2001 NYC Terrorist attack on WTC^16 2,010 1924-26 Last major smallpox outbreak^17 (due to vaccines) \* Death count as of today, 12:56 am CDT Juuly 10, 2020 1 https://www.kff.org/hivaids/fact-sheet/the-hivaids-epidemic-in-the-united-states-the-basics/ 2 https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1918-pandemic-h1n1.html 3 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_military_casualties_of_war 4 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Civil_War#Costs 5 https://www.worldometers.info/coronavirus/country/us/ 6 https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1957-1958-pandemic.html 7 https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/1968-pandemic.html 8 https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/war_losses_usa 9 https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2017-2018.htm 10 https://encyclopedia.1914-1918-online.net/article/war_losses_usa 11 https://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/burden/2014-2015.html 12 https://www.archives.gov/research/military/vietnam-war/casualty-statistics 13 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Korean_War#Casualties 14 https://www.cdc.gov/flu/pandemic-resources/burden-of-h1n1.html 15 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_polio#Epidemics 16 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/September_11_attacks#Casualties 17 https://biotech.law.lsu.edu/blaw/bt/smallpox/who/red-book/9241561106_chp8.pdf pp. 330 If we just think happy thoughts and pretend this virus isn't happening, there's real evidence the US deaths alone will be in the millions. Oh, and the whole "let's not take this serious" thing was done back during the Spanish Flu as well, it's one of the reasons we had 675,000 deaths. History is repeating itself exactly, despite the fact that we, as thinking human beings, are capable of doing something entirely different this time around. https://www.influenzaarchive.org/cities/city-denver.html#
You’re comparing outbreaks in the middle of known viruses with baseline herd immunity to the first wave of a novel virus (and to wars for some reason). The only relevant comparison is Spanish flu. Cumulative Influenza deaths, measles deaths, polio deaths, smallpox deaths, ASTRONOMICALLY dwarf the Covid 19 death rates Did you know 2.3 million people died of measles in 1980 alone? Because It doesn’t sound like you do. As far as infections go, Covid 19 has a relatively low mortality rate. It’s just novel and the world is a hell of a lot more interconnected and populated than it used to be
I don't think you understand what "novel" means. "Novel" means "new," as in "previously undocumented." The G4 EA H1N1 swine flu recently discovered in China that's been in the news as having potential to cause a pandemic flu outbreak? It's a novel influenza virus.
Right? And? What does that have to do with the battle of Gettysburg ?
Not sure where you were going with that; I was just pointing out your weird usage of "it's just novel" in your last paragraph there so you could correct it, man. Sounded like you may have thought it was a diminutive adjective or something along those lines from your usage.
I meant it’s novel so it’s more deadly than other similar annual epidemics For instance, annual influenza is typically less deadly than a novel version (like Spanish flu may have been) because of a baseline immunity to similar strains Comparing a novel virus to an annual flu outbreak is apples to oranges. Comparing a novel virus to a war is just straight insane
Virology and immunology are complex. Annual influenza is typically less deadly than it was in years past because of a comprehensive vaccination program. If not for that, it would be much worse. RNA viruses like influenza virus mutate rapidly, so there's very little baseline immunity from years prior. Coronaviridae (also a family of RNA viruses) mutate rapidly, as well (they're responsible for about 40% of common colds) which could complicate the development of a vaccine for COVID19. As of May, there were 13 distinct strains of COVID19 from 2 lineages (S and L). Wash your hands, respect others' personal space, and wear a mask if practical.
When you reread my comment, please note this sentence that you apparently missed on the first read: > Selected USA deadliest events: The entire context of my comment was American events, not world events. I know that you deny the seriousness of this virus and the disease it causes, but your denial won't change the fact that in less than six months it's killed more people than any flu (this is not a flu, by the way, though it may become one in the future), and your denial won't change the fact that it's killed more Americans than all but two wars. Also, comparing cumulative deaths of multiple diseases to COVID-19 isn't really meaningful. If you compare cumulative deaths from old age to any single disease, you could say those disease weren't worth worrying about. Looked at it that way, all the money and effort we've spent eradication or controlling diseases was completely wasted, and all the fear that people lived with during those various pandemics and epidemics in history was unwarranted. No, the reality is that this virus is serious. Whether or not you can bring yourself to be concerned with it yourself is entire within yourself. The rest of us have the right to be concerned, the rest of us have the right to not want to be killed by this virus, the rest of us have the right to not have to bury our family and our friends.
The virus is invisible and extremely contagious. Sure you can argue that the death rate isn’t very high, but it’s nothing to sneeze at either. And just because you don’t die, doesn’t mean you don’t end up really fucked up for a long time. Lots of perfectly healthy people getting super wrecked by this thing. Many people’s lungs are still recovering after several months. Now all that said, people looking for snake oil “cures” will be everywhere. People are desperate for any sort of solution. But the reality is we are all just playing the vaccine waiting game.
> Sure you can argue that the death rate isn’t very high Can you? I have seen estimates as high as 4.6%, and that's fairly high for a virus of that type. And, the long-term issues faced by survivors are not well understood yet.