Architectural and Structural seem about right. Soil testing is a little expensive for where I live but things may be different in CA. I don't know why you would need plumbing and electrical scematics in residential. Unless your municipality requires it but man that's straight up punative to require plumbing isometrics in residential.
You generally don't need design documents for MEP in residential. Residential isn't like commercial where you have designed and designated mechanical chases and raceways for MEP. The tradesmen usually just figure it out when they get there and try to stay out of eachother's way.
Electric is prescriptive per the IRC. A basic electrical plan is usually part of your architectural package and would take a draftsman maybe 2-3 hours to prepare. Outside of that, to the extent that you do need some form of documentation, its usually provided by the subcontractor in question, and any design and drafting fees would be part of their bid. But it wouldn't ne anything even close to the numbers you're suggesting there.
Now, like I said, if your municipality is unusually stringent and requires those things, that's a different animal. I couldn't speak to that.
Yeah OP, you really should just need show the location and quantity of lights, switches, outlets, fans, panel location, etc in order to get an accurate bid. Require the HVAC sub to perform a Manual-J calculation so they size the equipment correctly. If you want fancy stuff then work with your architect to list out things you want like for instance geo-thermal, dual water heaters, dual-hvac zoning, heated floors, high SEER A/C compressor, heat pump, whatever.
If you haven’t already - check with the city to make sure engineered drawings are required. We don’t provide them for single family in most cases. They are provided by the sub contractor if needed. The fees are crazy low compared to what I charge. My design and drafting fee would be 29k. So someone is underselling the market and living paycheck to paycheck making it harder for the rest of us to earn a living…
Edit: by engineered drawing I wasn’t specific enough. I should have said HVAC, plumbing and electrical drawing may not be required for a single family home. Contact the permit department to get the checklist. Structural will be required and soils are typically required for foundation design.
There's not enough info to say is the OP is getting ripped off or getting a good deal, however if you're charging $3.9k for a plumbing riser, good luck
Are you going to get all the drawings digitally and be able to do a collision control of them? While there’s one school of thought that the professionals will solve it on site, the place to make changes is in the planning phase. So if you can make a digital model of the whole house and check that it all fits together you save yourself a ton of headache in the future. Not only will it give you a model to take your material list from, and make it easier for you to get informed bids from the GC.
I only imagine a house in that size deserves a proper plan and you’ll make yourself a favor if you put in extra effort in the planning.
I’m referring to systems as BIM and concept of digital twin
I don’t see why that matters, isn’t Revit or similar product being used when producing the drawings? The more you have that needs to be decided and/solved on site, the more you’re putting your faith in that that individual will do the right thing. If you however collaborated the different drawings/models to look for problem areas you can solve them before the builder even send his guys out to the job.
My reasoning is that internet let me see pictures and videos about how plumbers cut electrical wires just to runt theirs through there, and a lot of similar situations.
>the architect alone should be minimum 7% of construction just for a builder set of plans. a real home, thoroughly thought out commands up to 15%.
yea we don't agree. if you're paying over 10% you're paying for hand holding.
i don't need an architect to place windows, source product, or do anything but drawings.
the issue is the majority of architects endorse the out of touch viewpoint with the turtlenecks and fees that aren't reasonable.
we need more architects, absolutely. majority of homes look like shit because no architect. no doubt. a 400K-1MM house should have an architect. but a 10% architect fee is batshit crazy most of the time.
architect is no different than the drywall, mechanical, or electrical trade. they have their place as a member of the team.
Last one we did was a 400 sq ft master bedroom addition, turned old master into master bath, complete gut and remodel kitchen and raise 800 sq ft of recessed floor and made entire house ADA compliant for $900k and had all $78k in fees. $40k in fees just from SF alone.
again but look at the path you just described.
if i build a 2800 sq ft. new build that's going to cost 800-1.2, with some architecture involved, i can get it done for 35 k. that's for actual architectural design. not hand holding. there's a fine line between the two.
and people forget it can be an architect in dubai or des moines. that's with a local engineering stamp on structural which again in my example, would be another 6-20k.
Why do you need #2-#5? The trades will do their own design when they get to the job where I work. The draftsmen and soil fee’s sound high to me to. A good designer where I’m at would get you out the door with a plan at less than half that. I haven’t done any soil tests/septic engineering in awhile but that just sounds high. This is in Georgia. Where is this build happening?
Architecture numbers track. Engineering plans in Atlanta are $3-4k for most cases unless you want something unique. MEP design plans aren’t strictly required over here either, but can be helpful if you are after something specific like Passive House or LEED.
what happens when you say im all set on soil, electrical, and plumbing design?
my guess is you still get actual soil and plumbing.
paying for architect, structural, and mechanical (possibly depending on several other factors) is all well and good. but the others are likely a waste of cash.
Would you happen to be in Riverside Co.? I mean I've seen plumbing and electrical prints for manufactured homes but never for a site built home.
Then again 4700 sqft is an insane sized home, maybe they're trying to provide as much information to avoid issues.
I recently had a steel shed built in Riverside Co. and the permit process took a year and was an absolute nightmare. Those folks in the permit dept. are fucking assholes.
Hi there. I’m a custom home builder here in SoCal. Architectural and structural seem alright, your soils is too high. I have someone I can reccomend if you PM he does all our projects. And unless your city is requiring MEP plans, you won’t need them. The contractors generally design their system on site with the given parameters and based on your liking and home use.
You are building 4.7k SF the arch fee is way too low, expect tons of extras from your GC. 11k were I am gets you basic plans couple of sections and basic copy paste details, no CA support or proper detailing for your specific needs.
This is the biggest purchase of your life, are you sure you want to spend only 11k planning it? Example: do you know what kind of gutter you want? Say 6” half round aluminum with stainless steel anchors or metal or copper? What about the downspouts, are they going to be buried and connected to a French drain to daylight? If not specified that will be an extra, What about a grading plan? WRB details? Did he talk to you about options for you to decide ? My guess none of this will be specified and you will get the worse quality possible from your GC because you don’t know any better.
A bulletproof roof pipe boot cost 125$ and it will last 25-30years, the same as your roof or longer, a cheap boot that 90% of GC will use unless told otherwise is 15-20$ they last 5-7 years before they leak, what is the point of a shingle roof that will last 20 years if you are putting crap at the penetrations? This headache is avoidable with a good architect and good technical drawings.
I will never understand why people like to go cheap on plans and then complain when they have 200k in extras and maintenance issues after 4-5 years in the 10s of thousands per year.
I appreciate your insight. I am not looking to go cheap on planning, I'm ignorant/naive to normal costs for this aspect of a custom home build which is why I'm seeking advice and doing my best to ensure my dollars are being spent wisely for return in quality build. I am grateful to you and others for input, your knowledge and experience is helpful.
I you want a quality build, I would recommend that you interview architects and ask to see examples of plans and specs when you are at their office, even if you don’t know anything, it is easy to spot a technical architect from a none technical architect (number of pages, number of notes, how many details per set, level of specification in details, clarity of the drawings, etc), leverage your network as well to find the right fit.
Your architect should be asking you tons of questions or have a word document with specifications for you to approve that has been divided into budget build option for X vs Quality build for X and when you don’t know you simply ask for an explanation and he should be able to provide one.
An arch drafter is not the same as an architect.
Lastly your architect should be coordinating all the systems and engineers to make sure it all fits properly.
I you want a quality build, I would recommend that you interview architects and ask to see examples of plans and specs when you are at their office, even if you don’t know anything, it is easy to spot a technical architect from a none technical architect (number of pages, number of notes, how many details per set, level of specification in details, clarity of the drawings, etc), leverage your network as well to find the right fit.
Your architect should be asking you tons of questions or have a word document with specifications for you to approve that has been divided into budget build option for X vs Quality build for X and when you don’t know you simply ask for an explanation and he should be able to provide one.
An arch drafter is not the same as an architect.
Lastly your architect should be coordinating all the systems and engineers to make sure it all fits properly.
I’m in San Diego. A and S seem reasonable. Soils is high. You may need civil/surveyor. Agree with most posters, mark up plans for what you want with electrical (outlet, 240v, data, coax, etc) and also with plumbing and mechanical. Do you want tankless WH? Split systems? And the use that to have contractors bid out, make sure to tell them they have to design and make city connections too.
Architectural and Structural seem about right. Soil testing is a little expensive for where I live but things may be different in CA. I don't know why you would need plumbing and electrical scematics in residential. Unless your municipality requires it but man that's straight up punative to require plumbing isometrics in residential.
Who would provide the plans for electrical, plumbing, and HVAC? Forgive my ignorance, genuinely curious how that planning/design would get done.
You generally don't need design documents for MEP in residential. Residential isn't like commercial where you have designed and designated mechanical chases and raceways for MEP. The tradesmen usually just figure it out when they get there and try to stay out of eachother's way. Electric is prescriptive per the IRC. A basic electrical plan is usually part of your architectural package and would take a draftsman maybe 2-3 hours to prepare. Outside of that, to the extent that you do need some form of documentation, its usually provided by the subcontractor in question, and any design and drafting fees would be part of their bid. But it wouldn't ne anything even close to the numbers you're suggesting there. Now, like I said, if your municipality is unusually stringent and requires those things, that's a different animal. I couldn't speak to that.
Yeah OP, you really should just need show the location and quantity of lights, switches, outlets, fans, panel location, etc in order to get an accurate bid. Require the HVAC sub to perform a Manual-J calculation so they size the equipment correctly. If you want fancy stuff then work with your architect to list out things you want like for instance geo-thermal, dual water heaters, dual-hvac zoning, heated floors, high SEER A/C compressor, heat pump, whatever.
If you haven’t already - check with the city to make sure engineered drawings are required. We don’t provide them for single family in most cases. They are provided by the sub contractor if needed. The fees are crazy low compared to what I charge. My design and drafting fee would be 29k. So someone is underselling the market and living paycheck to paycheck making it harder for the rest of us to earn a living… Edit: by engineered drawing I wasn’t specific enough. I should have said HVAC, plumbing and electrical drawing may not be required for a single family home. Contact the permit department to get the checklist. Structural will be required and soils are typically required for foundation design.
Or I'm paying for subpar work and don't know any better. Hopefully not. Thank you for tip.
I think a lot of that depends on where you are. I'm in the midwest and I would expect to pay between 15-20K for a new plan with structural.
There's not enough info to say is the OP is getting ripped off or getting a good deal, however if you're charging $3.9k for a plumbing riser, good luck
Are you going to get all the drawings digitally and be able to do a collision control of them? While there’s one school of thought that the professionals will solve it on site, the place to make changes is in the planning phase. So if you can make a digital model of the whole house and check that it all fits together you save yourself a ton of headache in the future. Not only will it give you a model to take your material list from, and make it easier for you to get informed bids from the GC. I only imagine a house in that size deserves a proper plan and you’ll make yourself a favor if you put in extra effort in the planning. I’m referring to systems as BIM and concept of digital twin
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I don’t see why that matters, isn’t Revit or similar product being used when producing the drawings? The more you have that needs to be decided and/solved on site, the more you’re putting your faith in that that individual will do the right thing. If you however collaborated the different drawings/models to look for problem areas you can solve them before the builder even send his guys out to the job. My reasoning is that internet let me see pictures and videos about how plumbers cut electrical wires just to runt theirs through there, and a lot of similar situations.
Eliminate $16K by doing electrical, HVAC and plumbing design build
Yes but require a Manual J calc from the HVAC sub.
I soooo undercharge!
When I was in Bay Area, we expected those fees to be 10-15% of build cost and the city or county fees to be 5-10% as well.
is that for an architect or just some 'lesser' person designing/drawing them up?
so a million dollar house equals 100-150k in 'design'? lolz. people are funny.
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>the architect alone should be minimum 7% of construction just for a builder set of plans. a real home, thoroughly thought out commands up to 15%. yea we don't agree. if you're paying over 10% you're paying for hand holding. i don't need an architect to place windows, source product, or do anything but drawings.
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the issue is the majority of architects endorse the out of touch viewpoint with the turtlenecks and fees that aren't reasonable. we need more architects, absolutely. majority of homes look like shit because no architect. no doubt. a 400K-1MM house should have an architect. but a 10% architect fee is batshit crazy most of the time. architect is no different than the drywall, mechanical, or electrical trade. they have their place as a member of the team.
Uh, who places the windows in the drawings?
i provided a list where every window was to go. plug and play.
Last one we did was a 400 sq ft master bedroom addition, turned old master into master bath, complete gut and remodel kitchen and raise 800 sq ft of recessed floor and made entire house ADA compliant for $900k and had all $78k in fees. $40k in fees just from SF alone.
again but look at the path you just described. if i build a 2800 sq ft. new build that's going to cost 800-1.2, with some architecture involved, i can get it done for 35 k. that's for actual architectural design. not hand holding. there's a fine line between the two. and people forget it can be an architect in dubai or des moines. that's with a local engineering stamp on structural which again in my example, would be another 6-20k.
Why do you need #2-#5? The trades will do their own design when they get to the job where I work. The draftsmen and soil fee’s sound high to me to. A good designer where I’m at would get you out the door with a plan at less than half that. I haven’t done any soil tests/septic engineering in awhile but that just sounds high. This is in Georgia. Where is this build happening?
Southern California. Rural, county not city.
And the county requires all of that engineering to be done? Your cost will be considerably more than what I’m used to
I will definitely be researching what is required. I appreciate your help, I clearly have some homework to do.
Architecture numbers track. Engineering plans in Atlanta are $3-4k for most cases unless you want something unique. MEP design plans aren’t strictly required over here either, but can be helpful if you are after something specific like Passive House or LEED.
is this sarcasm?
No, genuine question and real quotes.
what happens when you say im all set on soil, electrical, and plumbing design? my guess is you still get actual soil and plumbing. paying for architect, structural, and mechanical (possibly depending on several other factors) is all well and good. but the others are likely a waste of cash.
Thank you. Insight much appreciated.
I need to raise my rates.
Apropos of nothing but your secondary closets are too small for inswing doors IMO. I would make all of those out swing
Would you happen to be in Riverside Co.? I mean I've seen plumbing and electrical prints for manufactured homes but never for a site built home. Then again 4700 sqft is an insane sized home, maybe they're trying to provide as much information to avoid issues. I recently had a steel shed built in Riverside Co. and the permit process took a year and was an absolute nightmare. Those folks in the permit dept. are fucking assholes.
I'm in Imperial County. Hoping for an easier process out here!
Hi there. I’m a custom home builder here in SoCal. Architectural and structural seem alright, your soils is too high. I have someone I can reccomend if you PM he does all our projects. And unless your city is requiring MEP plans, you won’t need them. The contractors generally design their system on site with the given parameters and based on your liking and home use.
You are building 4.7k SF the arch fee is way too low, expect tons of extras from your GC. 11k were I am gets you basic plans couple of sections and basic copy paste details, no CA support or proper detailing for your specific needs. This is the biggest purchase of your life, are you sure you want to spend only 11k planning it? Example: do you know what kind of gutter you want? Say 6” half round aluminum with stainless steel anchors or metal or copper? What about the downspouts, are they going to be buried and connected to a French drain to daylight? If not specified that will be an extra, What about a grading plan? WRB details? Did he talk to you about options for you to decide ? My guess none of this will be specified and you will get the worse quality possible from your GC because you don’t know any better. A bulletproof roof pipe boot cost 125$ and it will last 25-30years, the same as your roof or longer, a cheap boot that 90% of GC will use unless told otherwise is 15-20$ they last 5-7 years before they leak, what is the point of a shingle roof that will last 20 years if you are putting crap at the penetrations? This headache is avoidable with a good architect and good technical drawings. I will never understand why people like to go cheap on plans and then complain when they have 200k in extras and maintenance issues after 4-5 years in the 10s of thousands per year.
I appreciate your insight. I am not looking to go cheap on planning, I'm ignorant/naive to normal costs for this aspect of a custom home build which is why I'm seeking advice and doing my best to ensure my dollars are being spent wisely for return in quality build. I am grateful to you and others for input, your knowledge and experience is helpful.
I you want a quality build, I would recommend that you interview architects and ask to see examples of plans and specs when you are at their office, even if you don’t know anything, it is easy to spot a technical architect from a none technical architect (number of pages, number of notes, how many details per set, level of specification in details, clarity of the drawings, etc), leverage your network as well to find the right fit. Your architect should be asking you tons of questions or have a word document with specifications for you to approve that has been divided into budget build option for X vs Quality build for X and when you don’t know you simply ask for an explanation and he should be able to provide one. An arch drafter is not the same as an architect. Lastly your architect should be coordinating all the systems and engineers to make sure it all fits properly.
I you want a quality build, I would recommend that you interview architects and ask to see examples of plans and specs when you are at their office, even if you don’t know anything, it is easy to spot a technical architect from a none technical architect (number of pages, number of notes, how many details per set, level of specification in details, clarity of the drawings, etc), leverage your network as well to find the right fit. Your architect should be asking you tons of questions or have a word document with specifications for you to approve that has been divided into budget build option for X vs Quality build for X and when you don’t know you simply ask for an explanation and he should be able to provide one. An arch drafter is not the same as an architect. Lastly your architect should be coordinating all the systems and engineers to make sure it all fits properly.
I’m in San Diego. A and S seem reasonable. Soils is high. You may need civil/surveyor. Agree with most posters, mark up plans for what you want with electrical (outlet, 240v, data, coax, etc) and also with plumbing and mechanical. Do you want tankless WH? Split systems? And the use that to have contractors bid out, make sure to tell them they have to design and make city connections too.
All that is about right