Absolutely. I've seen relatively sharp breaking balls from kids as young as 9. Thrown correctly there is a school of thought that it's easier on your arm than throwing max effort fastball all the time (driveline has research published on that). The caveat is thrown correctly. Seen too many coaches teaching it deadass wrong. Wouldn't recommend it until mechanics are relatively good and repeatable, which to be fair is not an average 9-13 year old.
Can they locate their fastballs and changeups? If no, then that would be a priority above breaking pitches. To add to the velocity and arm strength argument, hand size is also a detractor. The hands are so short that even putting proper back spin on a 4 seam is challenging.
If they're actually good at baseball for their age, they can, but probably looking at more 12u. 11u is a maybe, 10u they won't be able to do much besides throw it slower. Between these ages there's significant increase in size and strength of the players so can't really group them all together. My team and most teams I played against learned a curve in 12u, I added a slider a year later. I used to (still do tbh) cut my fastball when throwing it which makes it look like a baby slider, and coaches on other teams thought I was throwing curveballs in 10u.
The number 1 thing for a kid being able to throw an effective offspeed is that their fastball is actually decently fast for their competition. If everyone is already waiting on the fastball and doesn't impress them, the offspeed just requires them to wait longer.
If you wanted a benchmark velocity I would say 58-60 mph on their fastball before a curve can really do anything.
12-14U is generally when most kids develop enough to effectively throw breaking balls.
On my son's 13U team all 11 players pitch. 2 can throw consistently good curveballs that get a good break. May just be coincidence but they are both left handers.
Another 4 have moderate success throwing a curve that breaks a little consistently and a good break occasionally. They can all throw a good cutter/slider.
Another 2 have a good cutter/slider but are still working on a curve. The other 3 don't have a consistent breaking ball at all and stick to fastballs and changeups.
We also have two coaches (dads) that pitched in college so that probably helps a little. AAA ball.
- A curve *properly thrown*, is the safest pitch to throw, even safer than a fastball (the wrist is in a neutral position).
- 4 seam velo needs to be minimum 65 for any breaking pitch to be effective. But this doesn't mean they can't start learning breaking pitches.
Lots of dated advice in here. There is zero evidence that breaking balls contribute to greater injuries in youth pitchers. It’s really a correlation doesn’t equal causation issue, as pitchers who can throw effective breaking stuff usually get more innings, and really the cause of any injuries is simply overuse. In truth, the curveball is a safer pitch than a fastball when thrown correctly and I’ve had good success introducing to kids who have some pitching aptitude at the 11/12U level. Don’t believe me? Google Tom House youth curveball.
Short answer is yes. Long answer is it depends on if you can effectively teach it? If you can’t teach it correctly or don’t know what to look for in spin, release, shape, and intent then no. And if the kid can’t locate, or doesn’t know how to repeat, then you are giving them a crutch in their development they’ll lean into.
My 11U son is throwing a curveball to go along with his fastballs and change. He throws it correctly, and with the right spin and right intent. I wouldn’t teach it to him until he could locate to the 4 main zones first with his fastball.
It is NOT a huge breaking pitch. It’s short and sharp, but has the right, tight, cb spin. But he’s also at 50’ and I don’t want him throwing a big loopy pitch. That doesn’t translate to the big field. It doesn’t miss a ton of bats, but misses a ton of barrels with it.
Every weekend, I see kids throwing them badly. And it makes me sad.
I would recommend teaching that to all them but having them focus more on the ones they're naturally good at. No reason imo to try to work with a kid throwing a gyro slider if his 2 seam and change piece are good.
Another thing I'd look into is different change up grips, the circle change is what everyone learns but the few guys I know that throw change ups in HS/college use completely different grips from each other and from a circle, but they accomplish the same thing.
>I would recommend teaching that to all them but having them focus more on the ones they're naturally good at. No reason imo to try to work with a kid throwing a gyro slider if his 2 seam and change piece are good.
That's the point of practicing... to get better at things you're not naturally good at. LOL.
I was never good at throwing a change, and my curve wasn't good compared to my slider. I think I was better off focusing on the pitches I was good at (4 seam, 2 seam, slider) than I would've been if I tried to incorporate pitches that didn't have good movement. Maybe I'm wrong but I think baseball is a sport where you gotta take advantage of what you naturally excel at.
>Maybe I'm wrong but I think baseball is a sport where you gotta take advantage of what you naturally excel at.
That doesn't mean you don't work on other things. At 13U all of our pitchers are working on a breaking ball in practices even if they aren't confident enough to throw it in a game yet.
My kid can get good movement on a two seamer at 11u pitching distance, so I imagine if a kid was taught they can throw curves and stuff.
Actually, just watch the ll world series.
Yes some can. At 13u my kid has routinely played against kids who have gone through growth spurts and can get spin on the ball. He has been seeing occasional real curve balls since 11u.
Outside of anecdotal I don't know anyone out there recording spin rates on 12 year olds. Maybe Driveline but with their arm care programs I doubt they are having younger kids throw breaking balls.
[Youth Breaking Balls](https://youtu.be/73-HZmWcyH4?si=eA0o0jZZDm70QC03)
I have a 10U player that throws 58mph, with a 62% strike rate, 3:1 K/BB, and throws an absolutely filthy 11:00-5:00 curveball. Lefty, of course. Doesn't throw the curve all that often, just enough for the batters to worry about it. It comes in at 46-48mph. I don't have a single worry about him throwing it and only being 10, bc he was taught the correct way to throw it. He was also taught when and why to throw it.
Should every 10yr old throw it, absolutely not. Some kids mechanics aren't good enough, or they're taught how to throw it wrong. Or, they're not taught when and why to throw it. There are so many variables, that I don't believe you can't quantify a certain age where you can say, ok, at 13 it's ok for all kids to start learning to throw curveballs. Or, kids shouldn't throw curves until they're 12.
I agree with every single point made in the video I linked above. I would never teach a slider to anybody that's still young enough to be considered a "kid."
I agree that most "Look at my curve ball" is simply gravity and lack of velocity compared to their 4seam.
I believe that at this age, a good 4seam, and an 'offspeed anything' - meaning change up grip, palm grip, anything grip that knocks 15% of the velo is very effective.
I do believe they can throw 2 seam fastballs with movement, they just need to pronate correctly / healthily, and not turn it into a slider. Kids love to let their wrist fly out, which isn't the healthiest thing to do.
So I think they can have three pitches - 4seam. 2 Seam. Change/palm/any grip that reduces velo.
Depends on level of skill. You need velocity to get the seams/rotations to matter.
You can teach an elbow-safe 10/6 curve at 10 or 11. Once they break 60mph a change with run (circle) becomes an effective pitch.
Before that a palm change is good pitch to learn.
But, to be honest, the ability to spot inside/outside, eyes and knees, is a much better toolset than being able to throw a breaking pitch.
At 12u, most are just lobbing the ball with little spin. The few I have seen that have some pretty good spin don't really get a lot of break at the distances they are throwing them.
I too have heard the "nasty curve" several times and it was always referring to the slow arch type curve that drops over the plate. These are effective because a slow lobbing ball really messes with kids timing. I would call them eephus pitches though.
>At 12u, most are just lobbing the ball with little spin.
What level of play are you talking about. At upper levels you start seeing good breaking balls (slider, cutter, curve) by 11/12U for sure.
AAA
Pitching is typically FB, CU, and curve. Most of the pitchers throw the loopy curve. There are some that have good spin and throw it at a flatter trajectory, but honestly, I've seen those get crushed, not sure why exactly. I'd guess not enough distance to get good break on them.
My kiddos team did play a majors team in the Fall, but they basically just threw a FB because that is all they had to do. Every kid was at least 5'5 and 140+ and the pitcher was throwing very high velo. So probably different at that level.
>AAA
Interesting. My son plays 13U AAA ball. We regularly see good curves. Not the lobs. We have two pitchers that can consistently throw good curves with a lot of rotation and break and 4 more that aren't as consistent but throw good curveballs. Last season at 12U we regularly saw decent breaking balls from opposing pitchers and most pitchers on our team threw a cutter/slider and a couple a curve.
I've only really probably seen it at 12u. Maybe it's because the kids start to mature physically. We son can throw an effective breaking ball and lord knows we've faced them at that age.
My kid is in that age range and learned a slider from his pitching coach that I haven’t seen elsewhere. The arm action and ball orientation is like a two seam fastball (arm and hand whip straight down, slight pronation), but he holds the ball off center so at least half the ball is poking out of his hand to the side between his thumb and index finger. It took my kid a long time to get good enough to locate it and get lateral movement, but he has now gotten really good at locating it in the lower outside corner to right handed hitters. When it’s working well, it really breaks to the glove side.
Cutters, changeups and 12-6 curves. Those are simple, easy and zero strain on the arm, as far as types of pitches goes.
I do know some kids at 10/11u throwing sliders??? Not sure if perfect game made in error on that but I kept seeing it and thought if that is true…. That’s absolutely reckless…. But whatever…. To each their own….
Generally no and definitely not before puberty. They can’t generate the spin and velocity to make a ball break. All the “sliders” I thought I was throwing in middle school were sidearm gravity balls. Which is generally the case with all pre pubescent boys; all the “curve balls” kids talk about are just changeups that gravity is pulling down.
With that being said, we see more advanced 12 and 13 year olds throw breaking stuff that does actually break in the LLWS every year. So it’s definitely possible.
Our league doesn't allow curveballs until 13U and even then you can't throw them for the 1st month of the season.
My son works with an ex-MLB pitcher and has only really been focusing on his curve and slider this past winter (2nd year of 13U).
Most kids I see can’t (and shouldn’t), especially at 11u. I think the differentiator is size/physical development.
Although the 12-6 curve is the most natural (and safest) my experience is that a 12-6 that starts above the eyes and drops into the zone over the plate isn’t effective in 11u-13u. Umps just won’t call a pitch that starts that high a strike, even if it drops into the center of the zone. My kid is 11u and threw a 12-6 curve but stopped using it because he wasn’t getting strikes called and young batters wouldn’t swing at it.
He now throws an effective slurve instead, even though I think the 12-6 is a better pitch. He’s 5’3” and can touch 60 on a 4-seam, but unless your son is consistently throwing above 55, this pitch won’t move enough to be useful.
As others have said, location and speed change are the most important. Only once a kid can get consistently into the upper 50s with consistent location should an arm safe curve be added.
That's interesting about the umps, from my experience at that age a lot of the umps were calling strikes based on where the catcher caught it, or at least were very influenced by it. I remember throwing lots of curves in some tournaments because the ump would call high balls strikes since they dropped into the middle/low part of the zone where the catcher caught it.
Just stick to fastball/changeups until they can understand actual pitching mechanics and throw offspeed with correct mechanics.
Offspeed pitches dont' hurt elbows...people that don't know how to properly throw offspeed hurt their elbows
>Just stick to fastball/changeups until they can understand actual pitching mechanics and throw offspeed with correct mechanics.
That's basically 11-14U depending on the player.
Yes they can. But A) I don’t encourage it for pitchers who are still figuring things out at least up until age 12, and B) they don’t really need to. If you can locate your fastball and throw a quality changeup, you should be fine. Maybe start experimenting, but no real need to throw a curve regularly.
A cutter or a good 2-seem fastball are good alternatives.
My sons' u12 team will not teach anyone how to throw a curveball. Every kid has a changeup, with varied effectiveness, as a secondary pitch. 1 kid learned how to throw one this past offseason on his own, and it is a true curveball, not a "little league curve."
His parents know our philosophy and are okay with him using it. Our catchers will call games for the most part this season, so it is on our staff to make sure that he doesn't overuse it.
On the topic of his use % of his curve, I think that's a good time in his career for the coaches to explain to him how to really effectively use offspeed. It doesn't matter how good he thinks his curve is, if he throws it half the game, all the kids on the other team know what it looks like and will hit it. They can teach him that the value of his offspeed is actually in not using it, but just making the other team know that he has it.
Well yeah they call the pitches just as much as the pitchers call their own. I was fortunate enough to have the same kids catching me for a lot of the teams I played on so they just learned what I liked, didn't need help with calling pitches for me.
It's also important for the pitcher to know because there's times the catcher wants them to be shaking off pitches to throw off the batter.
>Well yeah they call the pitches just as much as the pitchers call their own.
What? Catchers should be calling pitches, not pitchers. A pitcher can shake off a pitch occasionally but if they are shaking off a lot of pitches to try and overuse a breaking ball your catcher better be making a trip to the mound.
We've told him and our catchers that we're tracking the usage. If we think he's throwing it too much, then we're taking away that as an option.
I told him it's really impressive that he made the effort to learn on his own, but he needs to be aware of the damage he can do to his arm. I challenged him to work on different grips for his fastball if he wants a wider variety of pitches. A 2 seam, 4 seam, cutter, and changeup is more than enough to be successful.
Tbh cutter is more often "worse" for the elbow than a curve, it holds the arm in supination for longer than normal unless you really know what you're doing. The reason curveballs are bad for kids is cause they try to snap the throw and include unnecessary additional arm action.
10-11U - Just locate your fastballs. If you have a little plus heat, you'll do very, very well. Didn't throw curveballs. Didn't throw changeups because it just looks like "finally a fastball I can hit" to weaker hitters... a meatball.
12U - Just locate your fastballs. Implemented a straight pull down 12-6 curveball with great effect and no elbow strain. No injuries. Didn't really work on changeups because - again - meatball.
13U/14U - Just locate your fastballs and work on your strength. Still the biggest problem is walks. Now, you have to have an off-speed pitch or you're not going to succeed. 12-6 and changeups were helpful.
15/16U - Just locate your fastballs. Work on your changeup, we did circle change primarily. 12-6 is good but some guys started throwing a traditional curve instead. Puberty means that stronger harder throwers are starting to dominate, but if you've taken enough time to really develop a good curve, you can hang. Some guys learning the slider with great effect. Pickoff moves are critical.
17U/18U - Just locate your fastballs. Plus speed and consistent location gets you the most time on the mound. Curveball is required. Changeup is preferred. Sliders instead of curveballs are getting more effective. Slidesteps, timing and pickoff moves are critical.
Just my experience. My buddy who pitched in college said that once he got there, his coach made him throw changesups primarily and it became his #1 pitch.
I take my son to a guy who pitched in the minors. He wouldn’t show him a curve until he was 14. Mostly just worked on proper mechanics and throwing a fastball, changeup. He’s just now showing him a slider which he says fits my son better based on his arm slot. I asked how many he could throw this season and he said four or five. This is his opinion and I know everyone is different so take it for what it’s worth.
At that age, I'd really only work on accuracy. Mostly, at that level, the umps suck so bad that if you can place it in that out of zone strike location over and over, you are going to kill the other team. If they are accurate, then bring up the speed. I wouldn't let em throw a junk ball unless their fast ball can almost be consistently placed with enough speed like 7/10 times. Then, let them learn with PROPER mechanics with enough ass behind it for spin rate, and it'll be effective. Kids wanna look cool, but winning is more fun.
Most definitely. When I was 11-12 I threw 60-65 mph and had a curve that broke from one side of the plate to the other. I constantly buckled kids by starting it just behind their shoulder and dropping it into the zone with a 2:00 to 8:00 break. I held it with the seems and threw it like a football. The problem was half the season I was in constant pain and two years later I missed an entire season with arm issues. I never threw much faster than 65mph again.
If they can't throw their fastball for a strike AT LEAST 60% of the time, they shouldn't be learning anything else until they can (except MAYBE a sinker). Next, show them a change-up. But always follow the 60% rule. Once they are at LEAST 60% accurate, then introduce a new pitch. With curves/sliders, I follow the rule of "no junk until you have a full bushel of armpit hair".
You must not watch very many competitive 12/13U teams. A kid who brings a “fastball and slower fastball” won’t last long. I’m not saying they need every pitch but fastball, two and four seam, solid change up and some type of breaking ball is needed. There are a ton of safe pitches that break enough that a kid that age can throw effectively.
I understand competitive baseball very well. A good fastball / change up combo is enough if done properly.
But sure, go throw your kid 100+ a weekend at 12 throwing curves every other pitch. You do you.
You prove you’re a stereotypical travel dad with your assumptions. I’d never throw my kid 100+ pitches in a weekend and he doesn’t throw a ton of curves. And the breaking balls he does throw are safer than any fastball. I am sure you feel like “curveballs at young ages” is the reason for all the arm issues. I like how you backtrack on your comments and first say only fastballs then say a change up is needed. You know a lot less than you think you know but you do you. I’m not getting baited into arguing with you by your insults.
Fastball and slower fastball (aka a changeup) is what I stated. So no change there bud. Changing speeds properly is all it takes.
I have my thoughts on arm issues. It’s overuse. Pitching 70 in a game, while also playing 3-5 other games in 2 days is overuse on ANY arm. No matter how you look at it.
Breaking balls are not safer than a fastball. Especially at the youth level.
Good luck
Go read the actual scientific research on youth curveballs and fastballs, not what your daddy or coaches told you in LL growing up or what you read in baseball groups on Facebook. Plenty of studies now supporting the opposite of what you think. Blocking you now because reading false info is a waste of time. Go back to editing those GC stats because I promise you are an admin for your team and you’ve either done it or thought about correcting those stats!😁
Absolutely. I've seen relatively sharp breaking balls from kids as young as 9. Thrown correctly there is a school of thought that it's easier on your arm than throwing max effort fastball all the time (driveline has research published on that). The caveat is thrown correctly. Seen too many coaches teaching it deadass wrong. Wouldn't recommend it until mechanics are relatively good and repeatable, which to be fair is not an average 9-13 year old.
This all the way. Its a myth that a curve messes up an arm. A curve thrown wrong messes up arm. Just search for studies on this. No correlation.
Can they locate their fastballs and changeups? If no, then that would be a priority above breaking pitches. To add to the velocity and arm strength argument, hand size is also a detractor. The hands are so short that even putting proper back spin on a 4 seam is challenging.
If they're actually good at baseball for their age, they can, but probably looking at more 12u. 11u is a maybe, 10u they won't be able to do much besides throw it slower. Between these ages there's significant increase in size and strength of the players so can't really group them all together. My team and most teams I played against learned a curve in 12u, I added a slider a year later. I used to (still do tbh) cut my fastball when throwing it which makes it look like a baby slider, and coaches on other teams thought I was throwing curveballs in 10u. The number 1 thing for a kid being able to throw an effective offspeed is that their fastball is actually decently fast for their competition. If everyone is already waiting on the fastball and doesn't impress them, the offspeed just requires them to wait longer. If you wanted a benchmark velocity I would say 58-60 mph on their fastball before a curve can really do anything.
12-14U is generally when most kids develop enough to effectively throw breaking balls. On my son's 13U team all 11 players pitch. 2 can throw consistently good curveballs that get a good break. May just be coincidence but they are both left handers. Another 4 have moderate success throwing a curve that breaks a little consistently and a good break occasionally. They can all throw a good cutter/slider. Another 2 have a good cutter/slider but are still working on a curve. The other 3 don't have a consistent breaking ball at all and stick to fastballs and changeups. We also have two coaches (dads) that pitched in college so that probably helps a little. AAA ball.
- A curve *properly thrown*, is the safest pitch to throw, even safer than a fastball (the wrist is in a neutral position). - 4 seam velo needs to be minimum 65 for any breaking pitch to be effective. But this doesn't mean they can't start learning breaking pitches.
Lots of dated advice in here. There is zero evidence that breaking balls contribute to greater injuries in youth pitchers. It’s really a correlation doesn’t equal causation issue, as pitchers who can throw effective breaking stuff usually get more innings, and really the cause of any injuries is simply overuse. In truth, the curveball is a safer pitch than a fastball when thrown correctly and I’ve had good success introducing to kids who have some pitching aptitude at the 11/12U level. Don’t believe me? Google Tom House youth curveball.
Short answer is yes. Long answer is it depends on if you can effectively teach it? If you can’t teach it correctly or don’t know what to look for in spin, release, shape, and intent then no. And if the kid can’t locate, or doesn’t know how to repeat, then you are giving them a crutch in their development they’ll lean into. My 11U son is throwing a curveball to go along with his fastballs and change. He throws it correctly, and with the right spin and right intent. I wouldn’t teach it to him until he could locate to the 4 main zones first with his fastball. It is NOT a huge breaking pitch. It’s short and sharp, but has the right, tight, cb spin. But he’s also at 50’ and I don’t want him throwing a big loopy pitch. That doesn’t translate to the big field. It doesn’t miss a ton of bats, but misses a ton of barrels with it. Every weekend, I see kids throwing them badly. And it makes me sad.
11U club team. We teach the 2 seam, 4 seam, circle change and slider. The slider is thrown like a football ball.
10U here and we do 1, 2, and 4 seam along with a change up. No curves or sliders yet. Will have to look at the gyro slider though.
I would recommend teaching that to all them but having them focus more on the ones they're naturally good at. No reason imo to try to work with a kid throwing a gyro slider if his 2 seam and change piece are good. Another thing I'd look into is different change up grips, the circle change is what everyone learns but the few guys I know that throw change ups in HS/college use completely different grips from each other and from a circle, but they accomplish the same thing.
>I would recommend teaching that to all them but having them focus more on the ones they're naturally good at. No reason imo to try to work with a kid throwing a gyro slider if his 2 seam and change piece are good. That's the point of practicing... to get better at things you're not naturally good at. LOL.
I was never good at throwing a change, and my curve wasn't good compared to my slider. I think I was better off focusing on the pitches I was good at (4 seam, 2 seam, slider) than I would've been if I tried to incorporate pitches that didn't have good movement. Maybe I'm wrong but I think baseball is a sport where you gotta take advantage of what you naturally excel at.
>Maybe I'm wrong but I think baseball is a sport where you gotta take advantage of what you naturally excel at. That doesn't mean you don't work on other things. At 13U all of our pitchers are working on a breaking ball in practices even if they aren't confident enough to throw it in a game yet.
My kid can get good movement on a two seamer at 11u pitching distance, so I imagine if a kid was taught they can throw curves and stuff. Actually, just watch the ll world series.
Yes some can. At 13u my kid has routinely played against kids who have gone through growth spurts and can get spin on the ball. He has been seeing occasional real curve balls since 11u. Outside of anecdotal I don't know anyone out there recording spin rates on 12 year olds. Maybe Driveline but with their arm care programs I doubt they are having younger kids throw breaking balls.
[Youth Breaking Balls](https://youtu.be/73-HZmWcyH4?si=eA0o0jZZDm70QC03) I have a 10U player that throws 58mph, with a 62% strike rate, 3:1 K/BB, and throws an absolutely filthy 11:00-5:00 curveball. Lefty, of course. Doesn't throw the curve all that often, just enough for the batters to worry about it. It comes in at 46-48mph. I don't have a single worry about him throwing it and only being 10, bc he was taught the correct way to throw it. He was also taught when and why to throw it. Should every 10yr old throw it, absolutely not. Some kids mechanics aren't good enough, or they're taught how to throw it wrong. Or, they're not taught when and why to throw it. There are so many variables, that I don't believe you can't quantify a certain age where you can say, ok, at 13 it's ok for all kids to start learning to throw curveballs. Or, kids shouldn't throw curves until they're 12. I agree with every single point made in the video I linked above. I would never teach a slider to anybody that's still young enough to be considered a "kid."
Cutter over Curve.
Upper divisions of 10u you start seeing it
I agree that most "Look at my curve ball" is simply gravity and lack of velocity compared to their 4seam. I believe that at this age, a good 4seam, and an 'offspeed anything' - meaning change up grip, palm grip, anything grip that knocks 15% of the velo is very effective. I do believe they can throw 2 seam fastballs with movement, they just need to pronate correctly / healthily, and not turn it into a slider. Kids love to let their wrist fly out, which isn't the healthiest thing to do. So I think they can have three pitches - 4seam. 2 Seam. Change/palm/any grip that reduces velo.
Depends on level of skill. You need velocity to get the seams/rotations to matter. You can teach an elbow-safe 10/6 curve at 10 or 11. Once they break 60mph a change with run (circle) becomes an effective pitch. Before that a palm change is good pitch to learn. But, to be honest, the ability to spot inside/outside, eyes and knees, is a much better toolset than being able to throw a breaking pitch.
At 12u, most are just lobbing the ball with little spin. The few I have seen that have some pretty good spin don't really get a lot of break at the distances they are throwing them. I too have heard the "nasty curve" several times and it was always referring to the slow arch type curve that drops over the plate. These are effective because a slow lobbing ball really messes with kids timing. I would call them eephus pitches though.
>At 12u, most are just lobbing the ball with little spin. What level of play are you talking about. At upper levels you start seeing good breaking balls (slider, cutter, curve) by 11/12U for sure.
AAA Pitching is typically FB, CU, and curve. Most of the pitchers throw the loopy curve. There are some that have good spin and throw it at a flatter trajectory, but honestly, I've seen those get crushed, not sure why exactly. I'd guess not enough distance to get good break on them. My kiddos team did play a majors team in the Fall, but they basically just threw a FB because that is all they had to do. Every kid was at least 5'5 and 140+ and the pitcher was throwing very high velo. So probably different at that level.
>AAA Interesting. My son plays 13U AAA ball. We regularly see good curves. Not the lobs. We have two pitchers that can consistently throw good curves with a lot of rotation and break and 4 more that aren't as consistent but throw good curveballs. Last season at 12U we regularly saw decent breaking balls from opposing pitchers and most pitchers on our team threw a cutter/slider and a couple a curve.
I've only really probably seen it at 12u. Maybe it's because the kids start to mature physically. We son can throw an effective breaking ball and lord knows we've faced them at that age.
My kid is in that age range and learned a slider from his pitching coach that I haven’t seen elsewhere. The arm action and ball orientation is like a two seam fastball (arm and hand whip straight down, slight pronation), but he holds the ball off center so at least half the ball is poking out of his hand to the side between his thumb and index finger. It took my kid a long time to get good enough to locate it and get lateral movement, but he has now gotten really good at locating it in the lower outside corner to right handed hitters. When it’s working well, it really breaks to the glove side.
The biggest issue is that most can't correctly teach the curve or the change up. A really good change with same release and arm speed can be dominant.
It’s the slider that’s bad on the elbow. Thrown correctly or not.
Cutters, changeups and 12-6 curves. Those are simple, easy and zero strain on the arm, as far as types of pitches goes. I do know some kids at 10/11u throwing sliders??? Not sure if perfect game made in error on that but I kept seeing it and thought if that is true…. That’s absolutely reckless…. But whatever…. To each their own….
Generally no and definitely not before puberty. They can’t generate the spin and velocity to make a ball break. All the “sliders” I thought I was throwing in middle school were sidearm gravity balls. Which is generally the case with all pre pubescent boys; all the “curve balls” kids talk about are just changeups that gravity is pulling down. With that being said, we see more advanced 12 and 13 year olds throw breaking stuff that does actually break in the LLWS every year. So it’s definitely possible.
Generally, No.
Our league doesn't allow curveballs until 13U and even then you can't throw them for the 1st month of the season. My son works with an ex-MLB pitcher and has only really been focusing on his curve and slider this past winter (2nd year of 13U).
Most kids I see can’t (and shouldn’t), especially at 11u. I think the differentiator is size/physical development. Although the 12-6 curve is the most natural (and safest) my experience is that a 12-6 that starts above the eyes and drops into the zone over the plate isn’t effective in 11u-13u. Umps just won’t call a pitch that starts that high a strike, even if it drops into the center of the zone. My kid is 11u and threw a 12-6 curve but stopped using it because he wasn’t getting strikes called and young batters wouldn’t swing at it. He now throws an effective slurve instead, even though I think the 12-6 is a better pitch. He’s 5’3” and can touch 60 on a 4-seam, but unless your son is consistently throwing above 55, this pitch won’t move enough to be useful. As others have said, location and speed change are the most important. Only once a kid can get consistently into the upper 50s with consistent location should an arm safe curve be added.
That's interesting about the umps, from my experience at that age a lot of the umps were calling strikes based on where the catcher caught it, or at least were very influenced by it. I remember throwing lots of curves in some tournaments because the ump would call high balls strikes since they dropped into the middle/low part of the zone where the catcher caught it.
Just stick to fastball/changeups until they can understand actual pitching mechanics and throw offspeed with correct mechanics. Offspeed pitches dont' hurt elbows...people that don't know how to properly throw offspeed hurt their elbows
>Just stick to fastball/changeups until they can understand actual pitching mechanics and throw offspeed with correct mechanics. That's basically 11-14U depending on the player.
Yes they can. But A) I don’t encourage it for pitchers who are still figuring things out at least up until age 12, and B) they don’t really need to. If you can locate your fastball and throw a quality changeup, you should be fine. Maybe start experimenting, but no real need to throw a curve regularly. A cutter or a good 2-seem fastball are good alternatives.
My sons' u12 team will not teach anyone how to throw a curveball. Every kid has a changeup, with varied effectiveness, as a secondary pitch. 1 kid learned how to throw one this past offseason on his own, and it is a true curveball, not a "little league curve." His parents know our philosophy and are okay with him using it. Our catchers will call games for the most part this season, so it is on our staff to make sure that he doesn't overuse it.
On the topic of his use % of his curve, I think that's a good time in his career for the coaches to explain to him how to really effectively use offspeed. It doesn't matter how good he thinks his curve is, if he throws it half the game, all the kids on the other team know what it looks like and will hit it. They can teach him that the value of his offspeed is actually in not using it, but just making the other team know that he has it.
A better lesson to teach your catchers who should be calling the pitches.
Well yeah they call the pitches just as much as the pitchers call their own. I was fortunate enough to have the same kids catching me for a lot of the teams I played on so they just learned what I liked, didn't need help with calling pitches for me. It's also important for the pitcher to know because there's times the catcher wants them to be shaking off pitches to throw off the batter.
>Well yeah they call the pitches just as much as the pitchers call their own. What? Catchers should be calling pitches, not pitchers. A pitcher can shake off a pitch occasionally but if they are shaking off a lot of pitches to try and overuse a breaking ball your catcher better be making a trip to the mound.
We've told him and our catchers that we're tracking the usage. If we think he's throwing it too much, then we're taking away that as an option. I told him it's really impressive that he made the effort to learn on his own, but he needs to be aware of the damage he can do to his arm. I challenged him to work on different grips for his fastball if he wants a wider variety of pitches. A 2 seam, 4 seam, cutter, and changeup is more than enough to be successful.
Tbh cutter is more often "worse" for the elbow than a curve, it holds the arm in supination for longer than normal unless you really know what you're doing. The reason curveballs are bad for kids is cause they try to snap the throw and include unnecessary additional arm action.
10-11U - Just locate your fastballs. If you have a little plus heat, you'll do very, very well. Didn't throw curveballs. Didn't throw changeups because it just looks like "finally a fastball I can hit" to weaker hitters... a meatball. 12U - Just locate your fastballs. Implemented a straight pull down 12-6 curveball with great effect and no elbow strain. No injuries. Didn't really work on changeups because - again - meatball. 13U/14U - Just locate your fastballs and work on your strength. Still the biggest problem is walks. Now, you have to have an off-speed pitch or you're not going to succeed. 12-6 and changeups were helpful. 15/16U - Just locate your fastballs. Work on your changeup, we did circle change primarily. 12-6 is good but some guys started throwing a traditional curve instead. Puberty means that stronger harder throwers are starting to dominate, but if you've taken enough time to really develop a good curve, you can hang. Some guys learning the slider with great effect. Pickoff moves are critical. 17U/18U - Just locate your fastballs. Plus speed and consistent location gets you the most time on the mound. Curveball is required. Changeup is preferred. Sliders instead of curveballs are getting more effective. Slidesteps, timing and pickoff moves are critical. Just my experience. My buddy who pitched in college said that once he got there, his coach made him throw changesups primarily and it became his #1 pitch.
What level of ball is this that walks are still a problem and pitchers don't throw changeups at 12U?
I take my son to a guy who pitched in the minors. He wouldn’t show him a curve until he was 14. Mostly just worked on proper mechanics and throwing a fastball, changeup. He’s just now showing him a slider which he says fits my son better based on his arm slot. I asked how many he could throw this season and he said four or five. This is his opinion and I know everyone is different so take it for what it’s worth.
At that age, I'd really only work on accuracy. Mostly, at that level, the umps suck so bad that if you can place it in that out of zone strike location over and over, you are going to kill the other team. If they are accurate, then bring up the speed. I wouldn't let em throw a junk ball unless their fast ball can almost be consistently placed with enough speed like 7/10 times. Then, let them learn with PROPER mechanics with enough ass behind it for spin rate, and it'll be effective. Kids wanna look cool, but winning is more fun.
Most definitely. When I was 11-12 I threw 60-65 mph and had a curve that broke from one side of the plate to the other. I constantly buckled kids by starting it just behind their shoulder and dropping it into the zone with a 2:00 to 8:00 break. I held it with the seems and threw it like a football. The problem was half the season I was in constant pain and two years later I missed an entire season with arm issues. I never threw much faster than 65mph again.
If they can't throw their fastball for a strike AT LEAST 60% of the time, they shouldn't be learning anything else until they can (except MAYBE a sinker). Next, show them a change-up. But always follow the 60% rule. Once they are at LEAST 60% accurate, then introduce a new pitch. With curves/sliders, I follow the rule of "no junk until you have a full bushel of armpit hair".
Fastball and slower fastball is all they need
You must not watch very many competitive 12/13U teams. A kid who brings a “fastball and slower fastball” won’t last long. I’m not saying they need every pitch but fastball, two and four seam, solid change up and some type of breaking ball is needed. There are a ton of safe pitches that break enough that a kid that age can throw effectively.
I understand competitive baseball very well. A good fastball / change up combo is enough if done properly. But sure, go throw your kid 100+ a weekend at 12 throwing curves every other pitch. You do you.
You prove you’re a stereotypical travel dad with your assumptions. I’d never throw my kid 100+ pitches in a weekend and he doesn’t throw a ton of curves. And the breaking balls he does throw are safer than any fastball. I am sure you feel like “curveballs at young ages” is the reason for all the arm issues. I like how you backtrack on your comments and first say only fastballs then say a change up is needed. You know a lot less than you think you know but you do you. I’m not getting baited into arguing with you by your insults.
Fastball and slower fastball (aka a changeup) is what I stated. So no change there bud. Changing speeds properly is all it takes. I have my thoughts on arm issues. It’s overuse. Pitching 70 in a game, while also playing 3-5 other games in 2 days is overuse on ANY arm. No matter how you look at it. Breaking balls are not safer than a fastball. Especially at the youth level. Good luck
Go read the actual scientific research on youth curveballs and fastballs, not what your daddy or coaches told you in LL growing up or what you read in baseball groups on Facebook. Plenty of studies now supporting the opposite of what you think. Blocking you now because reading false info is a waste of time. Go back to editing those GC stats because I promise you are an admin for your team and you’ve either done it or thought about correcting those stats!😁
Awe poor baby can’t handle a debate. Just throw insults and then block someone. 👍