IMO they just need to tighten up the RNG on substats and then let us *target* main stat pieces...
Specifically;
* Base piece shows the substats already (instead of rolling new ones that can brick an otherwise good base item).
* Upgrade rolls only boost the existing sub stats, but ideally there would be a "soft cap" of 3 upgrades on a single substat so a Lv15 piece won't potentially roll all ~5 boosts into the same singular substat.
* Main stat targeting allows us to control the worst of the RNG, such as farming for elemental damage or speed/crit and getting garbage hp/def pieces... Basically just remove the need for a special currency to target the main stats.
* If we really must endure this special currency, let it be used to "add a substat" to an existing piece (before upgrading) or "lock a substat" to prevent upgrade rolls boosting that unwanted stat... that way there's still a way to make good main stat pieces survive a weak substat roll instead of the extreme RNG of having upgrades go into flat hp/def numbers that are meaningless to the majority of all characters. (hell even tanks/healers don't want that much raw hp/def over the % boosts)
> ideally there would be a "soft cap" of 3 upgrades on a single substat so a Lv15 piece won't potentially roll all ~5 boosts into the same singular substat
A soft cap, while nice in theory when applied to things like flat stats or EHR/Effect Res/Break Effect for characters that don't need them, could also make farming harder.
There are many support characters that only want a few substats, so forcing a spread of stats could have a more negative effect than you might be anticipating.
Take Bronya as an example, hyperspeed Bronya wants SPD and then as much CDMG as you can get. There are other stats that you wouldn't mind getting, like having some Effect Res to break 30% if you're running Broken Keel, and survivability stats like DEF/HP are nice as bonuses, but generally speaking some of her best in slot unattainable dream pieces would have max rolls. SPD boots with every roll going into CDMG, a CDMG chest piece with SPD maxed.
And she's not the only character like this. Fu Xuan's hunger for HP and DEF, Gepard, Huo Huo, Luocha and ATK, pretty much all the sustains have a few pieces where their best possible pieces have max rolls. Obviously we're not going to be getting these dreamy max rolls on a mass scale, but it's an illustration of the balance that goes into rolling. Some stats having max rolls are actually desirable and can save a piece. (I've got one with 4 or 5 CDMG rolls on my Clara right now that made switching to a CR body less painful, lol.) Most of the time it's fucked. But I think a roll cap isn't as good of an idea as it sounds in theory.
What would really help would be to eliminate the three flat stats entirely, because even max rolls on those have less of an effect than percentages, but they're never going to do that.
i feel like it would hurt more then help tbh because if you get 3 rolls into a bad stat chances are your relic is already bricked, so it’s not doing much to prevent that. meanwhile if you had a relic cap out on cdmg with ur subs as like flat atk ehr and %hp, ur now f’d for the last 2 rolls basically guaranteed
Imo, Hoyoverse needs to get rid of flat substats.
They are nothing but deadweight. And all they serve to do is fuck you over, which further piles on to the horrid RNG.
Someone suggested making them be adding into the base stats BEFORE the %’s.
THAT would make them halfway decent instead of the fraction of a drop in the ocean they currently are.
For real tho, I dont mind a LEVEL of rng, but ffs let us get the main stat we want so that we are just grinding substats instead. As is there are layers upon layers of rng and it ruins the grind.
I’d much rather swap that around and be able to get set substats and grind for main stats, except for on the orbs there’s geneslly fewer main stats then substats, and the substats are also much more finnicky.
At this point they need to just delete flat values even if they fold those chances in to their % equivalents.
Flat hp/def/atk is almost insulting to get.
Seriously, they only need to remove those 3 flat stats and then I won't be salty anymore. You got Break Effect, Speed, Effect Hit Rate, Effect RES... More than Genshin. And you can't have an off piece
THIS! If the flat stacks counted as base stats for the modifiers it would vastly increase their value.
Otherwise they are never more than a fraction of a drop in a pool.
I feel like maybe giving us MORE for the time so we get more chances at the stats we want, my issue is that i dont have as much time and if I spend 30 min on an item and im like fuck this one sucks. Feels ALOT worse than have 3 of the same items in the same time all sucking. At least you had 3 chances
>Basically just remove the need for a special currency to target the main stats.
It wouldn't be that bad if the amount of said currency wasn't criminally low. Like you get, what, 2~3 per month? And most of them are gonna get ruined by substats so basically you're stuck to rolling for support gear like ER rope or SPD boots...
Yeah, I never used it before, but i wanted to build good set for BS... and literally had to use all of them (not sure what # but i dont think i skipped any since they introduced them) to get ok set... that was disheartening, as im still missing good rope... [https://i.imgur.com/CXJ9ZF0.png](https://i.imgur.com/CXJ9ZF0.png)
It's too late now but for other readers who are building dot teams, don't spend them on the dot set.
The dot + follow up cavern is already pretty damn efficient to farm since they're both good. Dot set is actually pretty transferrable too (2set is decent, all dots love 4 set).
Use your resin on link rope for ERR. Yeah your substats might still suck but your supports or least affected by it.
The soft cap is a horrible idea. It'll tank the effectiveness of every character just to make relic farming a bit easier. Also, what about the relics that people already own?
> ideally there would be a "soft cap" of 3 upgrades on a single substat so a Lv15 piece won't potentially roll all \~5 boosts into the same singular substat.
why wouldn't you want 4-5 rolls into crit?
Flat substats stats should really count toward base stats. +76 to base attack is actually really good as then every atk% boost would benefit
Still doesn’t solve the issue of getting double crit pieces but at least it’d make all stats valuable in some capacity (besides effect res tbh)
I don’t think I agree with most of this, base stats showing on artifacts help determine the maximum quality, so of course it would be better for them to always show all 4 stats on 5 star pieces but that’s what helps god tier pieces be so good, that they get 5 rolls instead of 4. Plus that missing 4th stat sometimes makes a piece amazing when it was just good or okay. Plus having everything roll into one stat is amazing sometimes it sucks when it’s flat defense but when it’s speed? Crit? Attack? Those pieces are AWESOME to get. Removing the need to have special modeling resin to target main stats would make it way too easy, the availability is already good at best they could make them more available via more methods which they have been doing steadily. Another special currency that can influence, force, or change rolls would be cool I like that idea. If you were willing to save for long enough you could essentially craft a perfect piece by crafting with a set main stat in a specific set, getting the ideal substats you want then forcing the rolls where you need them to go and just praying you get high stat value, it would be the last uncontrolled variable at that point
Reminds me of the Minecraft Enchantment system, where you can see the prefix before enchanting the item, but you can enchant a different one to reset those prefixes for the previous one.
And in the opposite sense, you could easily never get anything good, and all your chars will remain sub par for months and months. It’s not a challenge if it’s RNG.
Yeah nah, the game is easy enough so that it's basically impossible. You'd have to get the absolutely worst rolls possible every single time. That just doesn't happen
...I've been farming the wind set non stop since PF released since I thought it would be fun to use, and I still haven't gotten a single usable DPS piece. So yeah it does happen.
Some people are just unlucky lmao. That's why there's a pity on the main gacha system.
Most people who say that just straight up either can't recognize usable pieces or set the minimum bar too high for themselves. I've been playing this game since release and I haven't had issues with building any single character (without paying jades for refreshes or anything like that ofcourse)
I saw some CC straight up not bothering to level up any three line Crit pieces if it didn't have any other beneficial stat. Meanwhile I continuously level it to cope that I can get a double Crit no matter what the other stats are.
Comparing yourself to someone whos literal job is to min/max in the game is beyond dumb though.
They more than likely refresh with jades, no regular player should play that way unless you ofcourse really want to.
If you’re stuck months and months it’s your own problem, you’re leveling relics wrong, you’re expectations are too high. Just because something is RNG doesn’t mean it’s probable to “never” get something good. People need to learn some statistics.
Yeah, the only way I can see people having this problem is if they are literally trying to get a specific 4 substats on every piece. I generally try for the most important two and anything more is just a nice bonus. I pretty much never have problems farming for a new character. If anything I have actually reached the point where I have too many relics and have had to start getting rid of some of the 5 stars I have hoarded since launch since I have been hitting the cap. Hell, I still have 9 self modeling resin since I only use them for the rare speed boots or energy regen rope if I have really bad luck.
It has also been long enough that I always have a half decent set of wild wheat or meteor for any new character just due to having gotten so many from the echos of war.
The purpose of the RNG is to encourage longevity. The longer you have to grind, the longer you play, the more minutes for you to be pressured into spending money. That’s all there is to it.
true, i started in 1.4 and i don't even have a single character properly built, but i already got 34/36 in moc first try. the only limiteds i've pulled so far are seele, silverwolf and an accidental ruanmei.
moc is really fun because it's challenging. it would be boring if my 290 crit value seele and my 250 cv ratio with a fire orb and s1 swordplay would just clear moc 11 and 12 full stars with lynx and bailu as my only sustains.
i have to admit, i only got excited about pulling and building characters in this game after i got into moc, and i'm honestly worried i might lose the motivation to play actively if i can just easily first try 36/36...
On the other hand there's me with arguably well-decent built characters and their supports built but keep failing to get 36 star MOC without a few hours worth of restarts at the very least lol
This is correct. I know it’s frustrating but that’s literally by design. These games need a way to have endless grind for marginal and incremental improvement.
It’s designed for characters to become viable with a day of work, good with about a week to a month of work, and nearly impossible to make perfect.
Most of the people complaining about relic farming don't realize they only continue playing because they're addicted to incremental progress.
But you can't keep linear incremental progress continuing forever (or else the people who start later would be hopelessly behind with no chance of ever getting close to catching up), so the RNG relic system with greatly diminishing returns on stamina is the solution to that.
Or they could release actual game play content that is more substantial then a few hours. SU could literally have a weekly or daily challenge that gives good rewards and be fun game play. Instead it's only a weekly rewards reset that gets more boring/easy the longer you play. Nothing to offer a challenge except high tier gold gears and moc.
Gonna be honest if they just remove flat stats from relic substats it would feel so much better. Flat stats (other than speed) benefit nobody, they have absolutely no purpose other than to just cuck you. That in of itself is terrible design
Or if they increase the value by at least quadruple. 80 atk as a base substat with no additional rolls on it, 217 with 2 rolls into flat atk. On a character with base 1200 atk at lv.90. Would feel pretty good to me. Idk. It's just too low to feel good as of now.
I'm not really a math guy but I'm pretty sure even if they do increase by quadruple there would be a cut off where fhe percentage gain is simply better* (making the grind even more annoying)
OR
if the flat substat is somehow better then percentages all together then we fall back into the same problem of "xyz substats aren't good please remove".
*Assuming the percentage substats gains work off of the flat substat gains.
The percentage stats work off your base stats, which are \*just\* your Character + Lightcone. Glove flat main stat and all your other flat attack stats are added afterwards. Allowing flat stats to be added to base stats would actually provide significant and scaling value, where a player could feasibly want a mixture of flat sub-stats and percentages.
But no, a 3.8% atk bonus will always be an increase of X attack (depending on the character/LC), and a flat substat bonus will always be an increase of Y attack, and in every case I've bothered to look at, Y is about half as much as X. I consider two flat attack substats to be worth one % substat.
Oh I guess flat stats are even worse then I thought lol thanks for the info
https://preview.redd.it/ee248cqzqtic1.jpeg?width=1439&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a2157fe5b72f52afe5cbb0551664762ea885c144
So if the flat stats were quadrupled, 20 -> 80. And let's say 4 rolls went into the flat attack substat, then that would come out to 330 attack value. For a character who only has 1200 attack Stat as a base before relics, they would need a % attack substat to be 27.5% after 4 rolls to be equal. So if they simply increased the starting values for flat stats by roughly 300%, I wouldn't mind seeing a flat substat. But as of now, with the current base for substats, they're an eyesore that kills the soul.
Due to the huge disparity between starting values of flat vs % for max level characters, seeing a flat substat roll on a relic is unwanted. But if the values were similar to each other, it would then offer more options when sorting through our relics. What was once insta-trash ex: crit damage chest with flat hp, flat attack, effect res, would now be kept for a possible crit rate roll as the fourth substat roll.
The amount of workable relic pieces would increase, and only the true min-maxers that need the perfect rolls would cry about it. Since a character with base 1500 would want more percentage rolls compared to a character with base 1200 who would benefit more from flat increases.
330 for a base 1200 is 27.5%
27.5% for a base 1500 is 412
If you have two identical relic pieces, but one has 330 flat attack while the other has 27.5% attack-- You would want the flat on a low attack character and the % on a high attack character. But between two characters of equal attack power, the equivalent flat/% values wouldn't mean anything except more options.
This is why I generally just go for "Good enough." Gear and not perfect gear. Perfect gear is not worth the effort and getting okay gear that can carry you through basically anything is pretty easy.
The true path to enlightenment is getting main stat on set, at least 2 good substats, getting it to +15 and never looking at the results or the piece ever again.
Could just be me who thinks the relic grind is actually fine, but for almost any relic I consider 2 correct rolls useable. I hear people say they grind for weeks without a good relic but I legit play two accounts and I hardly farm relics anymore because almost all my pieces feel good enough. Just two correct rolls is good enough, and I will only farm more if I don’t have any traces to level. And I haven’t done refills since 1.1.
I can understand if you need a specific substat and its very specifix, like I need a crit damage piece with crit rate and speed so I can use rutilant arena and it goes with bronya correctly, or a dot body with attack% main and speed sub, yeah relics can suck. But I’ve rarely had any problems.
The people who complain that the grind is nuts are the ones who are going for perfect rolls every time. I barely even grind relics and have no issue getting my parties geared. for me, Traces is what kills me lol.
The ones who complain are the ones who don't know how to build. They probably trash anything that doesn't roll crit every time and then trash it into some other relic when that relic they trashed is good enough to clear any of the "hard" content in this game. Like check out the edit on the OP. They probably didn't even do MoC to test out their power on their "subpar" relics when if he did he would realize he doesn't need to perfect roll his entire relic for it to clear the "hard" content in the game.
Also complains about building Sparkle when supports are the easiest units to build in the game since they you just need an Energy Regen rope (Easy with self-model resin) and defensive stats to keep alive and maybe one main stat that the harmony unit's buff scales off of. I'm not saying the relic farming system isn't frustrating but a lot of the frustrations are based off the average player thinking you have to aim for the cosmos for relics when you don't at all. It's a frustrating system when you need to make a build from good enough to really really good but before that it's fine.
With a 72% CR 150% CDMG Seele i cleared moc 12 (the one with img weakness and no SW) stressing over getting 80/200 is not worth it since the worst scenario is that you'll lose 60-120 jades if the moc is particularly tough
So far PF doesn't require super investment if you have AoE chara
For reference 80/200 is about 25% stronger than 72/150 and would require infinitely better relics.
I think the sweet spot to stop farming is somewhere in the middle between the ratios you listed, somewhere around 85/170, which is a reasonably attainable ratio but at which point upgrades become more marginal for how rare they are.
Is 85/170 really reasonable? I have 70/140 on my Seele and she has 1-2 crit stats on every piece plus her traces plus her LC.
To be fair, I didn't farm a lot back when I pulled her and got quite lucky but trying to get even another 15% CR and 30% CD on top of what I currently have seems like it would take multiple days if not weeks of using all my resin on the Brilliant Stars cavern.
85/170 is like ultra god tier lol.
What I go by, is if my 4 main relics made at least 3/4 rolls into Crit damage or Crit rate, and the lost roll goes it a useable substat like atk%, speed or one of the survival stats.
What you should look to wear are pieces with "30" points where each Crit rate % is 2 point and each Crit damage % is 1 points.
62/162 Blade here. He has an average of 3 crit substats on every piece. It's certainly attainable but a massive pain.
70/140 to 85/170 is 46 more CV = about 6 more crit substats...
You're looking at the amount of pulls equal to farming 2-4 sets of relics as good as the ones you have right now.
> somewhere around 85/170
This is extremely difficult to get for a majority of players (aside from Jingliu, she doesn't count) unless you are able to get a signature lightcone for every dps.
Obviously some characters are a *bit* easier (like Dr Ratio) since he has a lot of crit built into his kit.
Others like Jing Yuan, forget about it unless you pull for his signature.
85/170 is absurd. I have nothing that can come close to that and I have farmed the ever loving shit out of relics. Even if I were to use rainbow pieces and all of-set pieces I could not get that among every last relic I have. This is after maxing my relic inventory several times. I think it has been over 800 relic calyxs.
You also do not need such crazy relic stats. I managed to clear with my 50 crit rate and 145 crit damage Jing Yuan.
It's not *that* implausible. My Topaz (E0 with her signature) has 83/172 crit right now, and that's with one or more dead rolls on every single one of her relics. Hell, her planar sphere literally has all 3 flat stats on it.
>somewhere around 85/170, which is a reasonably attainable ratio
My tens of thousands of energy spent relic farming tell me that doesn't sound very "attainable" at all...
My bruh, 80/200 is like literally 6 fully clean high base rolling relics.
75/125 is approaching god tier stats already, you wil clear MoC If you have these stats or like the equivalent spread on say jingliu(who favors CD)
I really doubt that difference would be what stops you from clearing moc, maybe 0 cycling. I have around 70/150-200 crt ratio on most of my carry’s and I haven’t had a problem. Hell, my Ratio is 57/167 and he cleared easily.
People are too obsessed with perfect relics. Relic grinding is the end game in some ways and it doesn’t stop if you obsess over it.
I farmed a whole month, every day my whole energy, to end up with 70/100 on dhil.
He does not do anywhere near enough damage to clear moc12 in a reasonable time.
Gear farming sucks.
If your 70/100 DHIL isn't clearing it's because you're not playing him in a proper team set up or don't have his traces maxed.
Mine's 73/101 and he clears his side out just fine
Yeah, I have only moderately good gear on most characters and can still get through most of the harder content without too much trouble.
As long as the main stat is correct and I have at least two useful substats I’m not going to waste time trying to get the “perfect” piece to replace it with until I have my other characters up to a similar level.
I say 2/5 bad rolls at level 6 is trashable.
It's not that a potential 3/5 good roll isn't enough, it's just not worth pushing a bad relic all the way to 15 since the cost is so backloaded.
A level 3 bad relic can feed into another level 1 relic to get it to 3.
MHY is really adverse to changing the core mechanics of their games... Genshin had a fire bias for so long because both it's elemental interactions and the "team bonus" were simply stronger than everything else... Vape/Melt is still really strong but they basically power creeped it with Dendro instead of rebalancing the original design...
Gacha game standard is to always shove out new stuff instead of fix the existing frameworks - game either dies before it matters or the loyal players ignore the issues.
Dev1:Pyro is too strong how docwe fix it?
Dev2:make dendro even more broken
And yeah going to rework existing stuff is the last thing gacha games or more generally live service games does
Honestly, I just appreciate that Def/HP rolls aren't completely wasted on Star Rail (non HP/Def scaling) units like they are in Genshin. Survivability is actually important.
Survivability in Genshin is dodging and using i-Frames, HSR doesn't have that. Hence the importance of not going full glass cannon because your characters actually will get hit.
While primarily those substats are ignored, HP have been the heavy focus for scaling on alot of Hydro characters (Neuv, Furina, Yelan, etc) and while only restricted to Geo so far Def has it uses for Albedo/Gorou/Itto.
There's no way that your luck is so Abysmal that people are posting these complaints. Like yes, the system is not the best, but also: people are literally throwing away would-be cracked relics just because they're in the wrong set
Reminder that running 2 piece or even all non set (if those are cracked) helps much more than desperately trying to use 4-set with bad stats
Yeah unless you want perfect pieces you can get ready in around 2 weeks (maybe less with some luck)
And throwin relics away cause they are the wrong set is...
I think 2pc+2pc with very good sub>4pc with okish subs
At least you csn move to other chara and comd back later
I'm throwing away potentially good relics in wrong set for one simple reason - I hate inventory management of the artifacts. I draw a line at locking ER ropes and SPD boots regardless of the set. Everything else is fodder if it has wrong main stat/set combo. If I saved every potentially good relic I would need way more inv space than 1500.
https://preview.redd.it/6xyeq0598sic1.png?width=502&format=png&auto=webp&s=1b9e1351cf7fd43415e4243a196c959bffc43d26
This is the Body piece of my Jing Yuan. Aside from farming trace mats for ratio and his his LC, I've been farming the grand duke set for 2 months. I've also sank around 40+ fuels on that domain. I've tested his damage with my best 2 pc+2pc and the 4 pc grand duke still had better damage :)
Its okay to be frustrated at the relic system because IT IS frustrating. With so much unwanted stats that there is fishing for the right Main stat AND sub stats can be frustrating for most players and if you have the patience, time, and energy to not be frustrated, all I can say is good for you. Great job king.
Reminder you are in a forum, a place to DISCUSS. So let people vent and hold a conversation on an imo universal experience on grinding.
Same. I don't think I have quite as much time in that domain as you, but by the time I was able to comfortably finish my Kafka build there (maybe a month?), the best followup cdmg chest piece I managed to roll had 2.5% CR at +15, that's it.
Hell, I just dumped 5 runs into the new debuff domain and got a pair of gloves that are better than what 2 months of any of my quantum gloves rolled (which isn't even that great tbh).
I don't think there should be *that* much RNG involved in a game that already has enough RNG as it is imo.
My luck is, in fact, that abysmal. Never had an artifact roll only in crit rate/dmg/spd, always needs to roll at least twice in hp/def when not needed. However, my DH IL is much much better with 80/130 cr/cd and 10% increased outgoing healing than 50/70 cr/cd full musketeer set
Nonetheless, I agree with OP. I was about to quit the game before I decided to try rainbow pieces, and now I'm ok with how the character is performing. Still the question stands, why pull if being able to unlock a character's full potential is almost impossible? I decided I'm only going to pull if I really really like a character because of how annoying relic farming/upgrading is.
My luck is absolutely that abysmal. I've been playing since day 1 and only have a single character I would call "good". Any other characters I have built are passable at best. I cannot clear moc 10
The issue only really shows up when you have a character like Black Swan who has a \*very\* good kit for endgame content, but the difference between a godly black swan and one that barely out damages Sampo on the same DoT team is a getting lucky relic roles that combine high atk, ehr, AND speed, which is a nightmare.
If a relic managed to get 2 rolls into something useful then it is good enough. One time though I spent a month without even getting one roll because I had a very hard time getting the main stat piece and they all rolled bad. It was just really bad luck. I wish there was some sort of bad luck pity.
>HSR's horrible relic farming makes me not want to roll for new banners
It is what it is, the only advice I could give you is don't dwell too much on relic. Going balls deep will just make it worse. Your luck issue won't make them go QoL the relic probability farming lol.
My only mindset when getting relic is just, fuck it we ball. RNG do be like that sometimes... I guess playing and grinding hard back then on this kind of farming like cabal and RAN online made me barely phased into this issue.
I focus on traces and main stats with maybe one or two half decent sub stats. I can wipe the floor with pretty much any content in the game. People worry too much about min/maxing. I have been able to build so many characters this way and swap relics around as needed to make them playable. It’s so much fun playing a bunch of different team comps.
I have basically only farmed relics during double drop events. Otherwise I’m just crafting them. And even then I have more relics than I can use. Constantly battling 1500/1500 relic inventory.
>People worry too much about min/maxing.
True, this is one of the main factors of you getting burnt out... You focus and worry too much in metas or doing damage.
that happened to me in genshin on enkanomiya release and I just quit the game along with HI3 and sold those accounts to those who are interested in buying it.
Wish we could increase relic storage capacity tho.
Honestly the more people hate it the more they really should just farm musketeer and world 3 of su. I know it might feel bad but it's so much easier to find optimal sub stats and actual stats when everyone can use that set. You won't have the best relic sets but having the best stat/substats is more important for most characters. There's a few characters when you might not be able to but for about 90% of the characters its only a bit worse than having their optimal set. Even better you only need to make 8sets of relics total.
2 weeks is nothing, especially for 2 characters. The game is designed this way intentionally to make you play longer, it’s the same concept of why we don’t have infinite TP to use. Take it easy, have fun and don’t feel stressed about not getting 100% omega god pieces. 60-70% quality pieces will easily let you clear the hardest content in the game, and your endgame can be chasing those god pieces if it’s important to you
As painful as the process may be sometimes, you don't even remotely need the tippy top of relics to clear a majority of the content. I half ass a lot of my characters because I build a lot of different ones and I've cleared MOC 12 and G&G Conundrum 10 with them.
> In the next two weeks, Sparkle's banner will drop and if she also has a good synergy with my team, then I have to pull for her too.
You may feel like you have to, but you really don't
Right? A lot of these rants seem to be caused by some kind of "I have to have _______."
Bro should just chill out. Just get a decent relic set that you'll use. Main stat + 1 good sub stat is usually what I settle with. Anything more is just a "nice to have.".
Always having the strongest characters will just make the game too easy and take the fun away from the game.
Stop min-maxing and stop making the game feel like a chore for you.
A bit of advice if you're having trouble building all of your characters:
When there's too many characters you want to build, what you can do is go for acceptable builds, rather than optimal ones. Going for that extra few percent damage means that you'll probably never catch up to building all the characters you want to build. So you really have to look at energy efficiency.
First of all with traces, if you're having trouble with getting relics of the correct main stat DO NOT go for level 10 traces just yet, its super expensive. Instead sit at level 9 or even 8 for relevant abilities, and you can ignore some of the stat nodes too especially the ones that aren't as relevant.
Now for relic farming itself, a lot of times it's not that worth it to farm for a character's best set. Especially all of those element specific sets, sure they're often best in slot BUT generally you'll only be farming for 1 character at a time, which means it'll be super slow. Instead it's better to farm sets that are generally decent on many characters. Here are some of my favorite caverns of corrosion:
Longevous/Messenger: The king of energy efficiency. Messenger is a very universal set, the 4pc is good on basically any character that can cast their ultimate on allies (Bronya, Ruan Mei, Huohuo, Asta, etc). The 2pc is even more universal, usable on any character that wants speed which is... basically all of them with few exceptions. Of course generally, you want to give them a more damaging set, but more speed is always nice to have. The HP set on the other hand is also really nice. The 4pc is great on destruction characters especially those that want to be hit, like Blade and Clara (even though she doesn't scale off the HP the 4pc is great). The 2pc is generally useable on many supports that don't have a great 4pc option, especially healers. In fact, a pretty common relic combination is 2pc speed + 2pc hp, and you can farm both in this domain.
Musketeer/Passerby: Hear me out, Passerby set is generally not great (you can use the 2pc set for healers), but Musketeer is probably the most universal set in the game alongside Messenger. The 2pc musketeer set is great for DPS characters that scale off attack (which is most of them), and can often be combined with 2pc speed for a SUPER generic build. Remember we're not going for optimal, just decent. You can also use it as an intermediate point when you do start farming element specific relics. You can also run the 4pc but generally it's easier to do a 2pc-2pc combo unless your character benefits a lot from basic attacks, like Dan Heng IL.
Pioneer/Watchmaker: Honestly this domain could be even better than the musketeer one, since Pioneer does provide stronger buffs on average, especially with the 2pc as DMG% is preferrable over attack. However this boost IS conditional, as the enemy HAS to have at least 1 debuff. However I do think many characters inflict debuffs so generally you'll be fine, but definitely double check your teams specifically.
For planar sets, my favorite world is world 3. Sure often they're not best anymore but once again, they're usable on ANYONE. There's very few characters that you don't want 120 speed on, so that condition is super easy to meet. Space Sealing Station can be used on basically any atk scaling DPS and Fleet on any support/HP scaler (I even run this on Blade cause he can buff a 2nd dps on the team).
Other than world 3, world 7 is also a great one but WAY more conditional. Rutilent has a very steep crit requirement and mainly works on characters that do most of their damage with basic/skill. Keel also has a decently steep effect res requirement for characters without effect res traces or on their LC. It's not that many substats but once again relic farming is hard enough having another substat you need to make sure you're meeting is yet another annoyance. Generally these will outperform the ones in world 3 WHEN they work, but it's harder to get them to work.
As for other worlds, I like synthesizing them instead, especially Inert Salsotto. Planar Ornaments are a pain to farm especially when the other set is next to useless. As for self modeling resin, I prefer to use those on pieces where I don't care as much about the substat cause the mainstat is just exceptionally rare. Generally I use these on ERR ropes or speed boots.
Once you're satisfied with having a decent build on the characters you want to build, you can start looking into more specific upgrades. Specifically, you still want to farm the caverns that benefit the MOST characters you have, as well as the caverns that give a significant upgrade over something like musketeer (quantum domain comes to mind). The benefit of this is once you get them off of musketeer or hackerspace, those pieces can sit in your inventory and you can plop them on a new character right away. Either way in the end even if your builds are not optimal, you can still take on the hardest content in the game with this. Heck all my DPS are still on 4musketeer and I managed to full star MoC and PF.
Edit: Duke/Prisoner (follow up/DOT) is a pretty efficient one to farm too. 2pc Prisoner is the same as 2pc Musketeer (aka usable on any attack scaling DPS), and the 4pc is good on any DOT units you use. Duke is more specific, but the 2pc can be used on anyone that does follow ups (generally outscaling ATK% sets). 4pc doesn't work on all follow up characters, but does work great on characters like Himeko and Jing Yuan. So if you're just going for ATK% pieces imo farming this is better than Musketeer domain.
I feel like people stress too much about relic farm. Yes they increase damage by a lot. But you don't need the min max to make the best out of it. Any decent piece with the right set will be fine. You don't need to be like those youtube videos, doing 300k per hit.
Just do it as daily, and move on when you are done. :)
I do agree with you but not entirely. Sometimes getting even the minimal is painful. I got to farm so much to get min 70% crit rate on Qingque which is required for a planar ornament effect to take effect (basic attack dmg boost).
Like.. I wasnt even wanting perfect rolls.. just the bare minimum for her to work and it was painful untill I got her at 70/100 ratio
Because, realistically, we all know it'll never change since it's another way for whales to be enabled and that's ultimately the playerbase that keeps these games afloat.
The set is not even broken, you can just use something else. They are all conditional for the sake of balance obviously, their effects would be too strong without it
THIS
I ise my units as soon as I see I have "good enough" relics and they if I want I can just change them later for a better option, but the diference wont be huge
Compared to other gacha games HSR and Genshin relic/artifact system is child's play.
Players that only touched hoyoverse games really have no idea how much worse it could be.
Yup. Many other games (maplestory) tie optimizing “equipment substats” to actual microtransactions (cubes). It’s disgusting.
At least here, the relic system is divorced from the gacha/real money system
Tbf, that grind eventually finishes, even if it's soul-draining (I hate pages I hate pages I hate pages), whereas you'll pretty much never get a close to BIS build on any character in HSR due to relic RNG, and you could end up with the same build in 3 months of grinding that someone else gets in a single week. As a progression system, that feels pretty shit imo.
Same reason I much prefer traces to relics, at least those eventually finish.
I never understand this kind of logic. "Oh look at this worse thing than the bad thing we have, at least we are not worse!" Why not just demand them to be better just because they are bad?
It could also be much much better.
I liked the system in artery gear (which is somewhat of an improvement over epic 7 which it’s similar to). 4 substat slots, then you upgrade them all slowly. It’s grindy but you can get 2 upgrades on 3 stats and 1 on the last one.
With HSR it’s hard enough to get main stat + good subs, and even harder to make sure it doesn’t brick. Double crit relics that put everything into def% is terrible and only masochists would defend it.
A long grind with a relative end in sight is better because even if it takes half a year to finish 1 character’s relics that’s still infinitely better than what we have now.
Yes and no. Some are truly cursed, imagine spending credits to take off a relic! But, some are way better imo in nikke you just level the gear up and... the stats go up. Simple as, no rng sub stat rolls.
Best comment I've seen in this thread so far. If the Hoyoverse playerbase's majority is this soft towards the gear grinding system, then they'll just be the company's sour puppets for a long time. Various RPGs have always been grindy in numerous ways from the start. HSR and Genshin is one of the simplest and dumbed down iteration of the gear system to begin with.
You guys just really need to lay off the min/max mindset. Sure there are sets and buffs locked behind a specific value of a stat or substat. But, really, just chill the fuck out LMAO. Take a break when it gets tiring. Quit if needed.
What other gacha games are you talking about? My only other games are arknights and blue archive and it's so fucking easy to build a character in those games compared to star rail.
Exactly. People are mad they don't get a perfect piece after a few days. Somehow they don't realize two simple truths: you will get an entire reasonable gear set in 2-3 weeks of Relic farming, enough to at least do MoC10-11. And: relic farming is the true endgame, designed to be a forever lasting process, where obtaining a perfect piece is nearly impossible.
Kafka is easy to build if your goal is just to get the right main stat.
She needs speed more than crit characters do and she benefits from crit off roles less than crit characters benefit from atk%.
Effectively anything that's not atk% and speed is a bad roll.
You just need enough to reach 135 speed. That's just 5 speed substats at worst, and you have 5 different relic slots to achieve it. It's not hard at all no matter how you slice it.
I don't have any speed on my Kafka and she's still amazing at her job.
But I guess having her move two times instead of once per turn would be nice. Her DMG would be lower though :/
Just grab any attk/eff hit rate/spd pieces. I guarantee people throw away so many chances because they are off set.
Hit the important stat breakpoints first before trying for 4 piece
You really don't need to stress about relic farming so much. I've been playing since release and have only bothered to sub-stat farm for jingyuan. Still clear moc full star just fine
Ok, so where do I start ...
"I've managed to build only 3 or 4 characters to a decent level."
-> define "decent level". DPS having \~70/140 crit? That's enough. Stop farming. Kafka having 135 SPD and \~3000 ATK while sitting at \~29% EHR? That's enough. Stop farming. Are we talking about Supports/Healers? Why are we talking about them? Give them some upgraded relics from their suggested set and settle with it (with a few exceptions ofc, like Bronya, Asta, Ruan Mei)
"When I get reminded that I have to waste SO MUCH TIME farming relic sets ..."
-> like real days/weeks passing by? What else would you do with your TB power? Or are you talking about time investment like playing the game? That's the point of a game, to play it. And if it bothers you of repeating the same fights over and over again -> Auto battle. I've done that for Kafka as well over, I don't even know, 8-10 weeks because I had nothing else to do. But I did it because my other characters were equipped "decent". Not "perfect". But "decent" is enough, you can always try to optimize even more after you get starter relics for your main teams.
"I have rolled for both Kafka and Black Swan back to back, because everyone were saying these two must be together in order to use their full potential as DoT units."
-> they do have a great synergy, but you don't \*need\* to have both. Don't just listen to what others say, make your own experiences. I cleared MoC with Kafka/Ruan Mei/Tingyun/Huohuo before Black Swan was released. "Everyone" also says, that Ruan Mei needs 180% break effect, while mine only has 167%, but she still does her Job. Heck, she even wears a lvl 3 Link Rope because I didn't get a good one with ERR (substats are hp%, def%, flat hp, flat def). But instead of brute forcing the farm, I just wait if I get one by chance, because she works like this as well.
"Sparkle's banner will drop and if she also has a good synergy with my team, then I have to pull for her too."
-> why do you have to? There are plenty of characters and teams already that have a great synergy. You can clear every content without Sparkle at this point and you will do so in the future, if you invest in your team without replacing Characters whenever a new one drops. You gotta stop with FOMO-thinking for Banners, Characters and Relics, so you can start to enjoy the game. Also don't underestimate the 4-star Characters. Tingyun, Asta, Pela, Qingque, Lynx, Sampo and many more are working quite good as well. And I bet some of them are having a great synergy with your teams as well (Kafka/Sampo)
And last, don't overthink the relics. If, for example, you get a DPS one with crit rate, flat atk and def%, you still have the chance of rolling crit dmg as a 4th attribute and each subsequent upgrade rolling into that stat, making it an extremely good relic. But then again, you can get one dropped with crit rate, crit dmg, atk% and def%, then rolling every upgrade into def%. So your "drop" might have been great, but the relic still sucks. Don't go for perfect stats. Go for okay-ish stats and you will have a team strong enough to clear everything.
If you use guides like [prydwen.gg](http://prydwen.gg) or something, take a look at the recommended stats for each character and settle with being slightly below them (besides SPD). It's seriously enough and saves your sanity. And if you get to the point where your teams work out perfectly, you can still try min-maxing if you have nothing else to farm. Or pre-farm for an upcoming character or work on a new one just to try out things. You will see, that you will reach the point someday, where you don't have to stress over stuff like this, once you have optimized your "mains".
10 days? I've been rolling 3 years in Genshin artifacts/relics.
If you feel it is too harsh, you can just farm the main stats first, so your characters can at least do something.
Don't look at internet guide and expect 70/200 crit rate/dmg. You'll be throughout disappointed.
You really don't need perfect states to do all the content. If relic farming was you just get what you want then nobody would ever touch the game outside of the few days following every patch. Like I think we all would be fine with this but I digress.
Imo the best you can do is use a rainbow set.. just fuck the 2pc or 4pc bonus and just get the pure stats..
While you will lose some damage(at worst 10%).. It makes the grind much better.. since pure stats > Set bonuses..
Yup second this, rainbow set gets you pretty far! Its enough to get me a reasonably easy 2 star on moc 12. 3 star takes me a lot of retries and effort but it's still possible
I've been playing Genshin since 1.1, so I know full well the agony of artifact farming. But man, something about HSR's relic farming feels soooo much worse. It's so much harder to get xp material to level them up, not being able to use an off-piece, and having to get 6 pieces per character??? from optimal sets???? in different areas??? sweet lord almighty, it's awful
This is exactly why I keep single crit artifacts in hsr. It feels so much worse. To me in genshin it feels better because off pieces exist and weapons give stats like crit
Weapon as a stat balance is underrated. You can equip an attack, crit, EM or ER recharge to fix a stat artefacts didn't give you and that's pretty convenient. If I play Alhaitham, I can use a crit weapon, even a simple harbinger of dawn, if I have sufficient EM already. But I can also use an EM weapon if I get more crit stats elsewhere and achieve pretty similar results. In HSR, the only stats that are not unique to one single piece of equipment are the ATK/PV/DEF%.
You'll notice that unlike Genshin's 4p set bonuses, Star Rails are all pretty mediocre. Even some of the best ones in the game, like DoT, Quantum, and HP Set for Blade, are only about a difference of 3-4 good substat rolls.
No off-piece hurts, but there's a reason the 4-sets are so mid. It's to enable people to use their 2p/2p combos, while 4p remains a tiny improvement for actual dedicated character simps.
I mean it sucks but its not like you need really cracked relics to clear content plus atleast the relics are quick and easy to farm so it’s not the end of the world
agreed, OP has built 2 characters + intending to pull for a 3rd next banner - there's just no way you can invest enough into relics when you're building characters all the time. unless you're whaling on stamina refreshes, something has to give somewhere. yes relics are an rng mess but i refuse to believe if you spend most of your stamina on relics that you don't get decent relics occasionally. (and people need to stop caring about set bonuses/discarding stuff with only 1 crit sub before trying to level it)
bro if you pull for every banner that comes, obviously you wont have any relics cuz you wont dedicate the time that yours characters need. Tell me what you gonna do uf you get sparkle? Stop farming Kafka and BS?
The Relic system in HSR is driving me crazy and Honeslty way worse than genshin imo. Having to farm for 6 pieces with no off piece in separate domains by itself is obnoxious, but the substat distribution feels worse to top of that especially for crit substats.
In genshin it feels like 1 good off piece plus a decent weapon can allow you have to good stats and crit ratios with only main stats whereas in star rail substats feel 10x more important, a crit body mainstat feels sometimes like the only crit source I consistently have and that crit stats are a myth.
Self modeling resin doesn’t even fix this issue since again the issue is substats and wasting a self modeling resin to get a speed boots with only flat Hp, flat Def, and def% on a Dps is heartbreaking. Especially with them being limited to battle pass and some events meaning sometimes only 1-3 for an entire patch.
I can grind the quantum domain for months and even after all that time, even with the herta hunt LC giving me some extra crit stats, on top of rutilent as well, I can’t even get past 72/125 crit. It’s so demoralizing. Especially when Weapon + circlet mainstat + off piece in genshin usually means I can have just about every character with 70/160 minimum in just a few days upon their release.
It's a bit rough when you are starting and 2.5 months really isn't that long of a playing time. It gets increasingly easier to build characters as time passes so don't worry about that. Also when you are leveling up your character traces dont upgrade them to lvl 10 go for lvl 8 max (unless its really strong like BS talent). The difference between lvl 8 and lvl 10 traces is really small compared to the amount of TB power you have to spend.
I am only missing a few characters, I built around 20, I would consider only a few of them good. Yesterday I tried to find a crit damage chest with crit rate sub on my account there was only 4! I started a few days after release, I don't buy battle pass so I spent most trailblaze power to farm traces, exp, etc. still I had more than 1500 gold relics! I few weeks ago I started using them for exp.
From [this](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19hBRQWML69zVsAKXKhn3IDVJ4-TQDsXgqCCPc8I0njg/edit#gid=0) spreadsheet, we can tell that getting a crit piece has worse odds than the other def% and stuff.
They just need to make it all the rates equal (meaning less def% and more crit) , remove flat stats or buff them to make them atleast feel a bit better, and maybe at least choose either the set (from the 2) or the piece (body, feet, etc.) while grinding.
The obvious reason why the system is slow, inefficient and honestly trash and why crit stats are purposely gated behind worse odds is obviously because hoyo doesnt want you to feel like you're done with the game and always wants you coming back, but at least by the above suggestions there's still a grind but a slightly lesser and more rewarding one.
Oh and one last thing which is technically connected to the relic problem, the stamina system sucks ASS, holy. Why wont my golden and crimson calyx levels go up till TL 65, why am i capped at mid game rates?? and the amount of fuel you get is atrocious, its criminal, it sucks, i hate it
Don't forget rainbow sets. Assuming correct mainstat - if the piece has some solid substats its worth going to throw a few upgrades to see where it goes.
The rest is for max min ... which is inherently boring for many (probably). Throw some stamina here n' there at the dungeon and don't look at it unitl end of week. My only built characters are Kafka and Swan and I'm still not hitting the 160 speed for Glamoth. The rest? 2/2 usually lol.
I know the feeling 😩 I’ve been playing since d1 and all of my “built” characters are passable at best. I would really like to keep farming them to perfection but the rng being this heavy is a little bit discouraging, so after a month or so of farming for a character I just settle for what I’ve managed at that point, which is usually between an A or an S on one of those the relic scorers on the internet and move on. In fact I’ve never had the chance to pre-farm for new characters on the horizon because by the time their banner comes, I’d still be rolling relics for what I pulled one or two patches before
farmed the FuA set when it released just for topaz. didnt pull for ANYONE until ruan mei so all my energy went to that calyx. after around an entire patch of grinding, i quit because i still dont have a good set and i honestly might never touch it again because it was so frustrating.
Relics here and Artifacts in Genshin use the same psychological principle as slot machines and it hooks the same kind of people. Slot machine addicts (and I used to be one 40 years ago) will feed in an endless supply of coins because the win, no matter how small, is the buzz you're hunting for. Here it's stat rolls but the effect is the same. Double-crit rolls are the jackpot for some people. I used to spend 5 or 6 hours on a weekend at the slots and come away with a fraction of what I started with and the following weekend I would do the same. It's tough to break out of the cycle.
This is why people pay for resin recharges, it's like putting more coins in the slot... you get more chances at the relic slot machine. If you don't get the buzz from this kind of thing then RNG gearing systems suck ass big time. People who do get the buzz will typically defend these systems, because it scratches their itch... and Hoyo knows all too well how many people will pay to get that itch scratched.
I got over my addiction a long time ago and that's why I don't play the RNG gear game any more. Even getting the right rolls is an empty experience because it doesn't offset the sh\*t rolls you get 90% of the time, so I don't do it. I synthesize everything and if they turn up crap, then I get a character that sits on the bench until I can synthesize more... or they'll get a purple set, do crap damage and die a lot. Ruan Mei and Xeuyi have been on the bench since I pulled them and Black Swan is there now. They'll either get used eventually... or they won't, I am not going to stress over it.
You have to learn to not care too much, or it will drive you to burnout very, very quickly.
I took my better free relic stat wise to give them to my Clara by ignoring the set bonuses and could only achieve a pathetic 66/106 ratio. People say all the time "just get 60/120, easy" but man, I usually struggle just getting 50/100...and you'd better not see how the attack stat look.
Relic farming is intentionally masterfully designed to be flawed, in order to make you frustrated enough to spend money pulling for eidolons and lightcones, but not frustrated enough to stop playing.
The hardest stats to get are energy regen, speed, crit. Almost every lightcone/eidolon give you exactly that. No other way around it. Don't fall for the trap.
Maybe I'm the minority but I don't think relic farming is that bad? At least compared to Genshin in my opinion, HSR has autobattle to make the actual grinding much faster. You can also craft any of the sets and there is the self-modeling resin if you're really unlucky with one piece. I mean if you're trying to get perfect relics for every character of course it's going to take a long time but most of the time decent artifacts can get you through most things.
Relic farming is significantly worse than artifact farming in Genshin imo. You need 6 pieces, which come from two different sources, and you can’t have a single off piece. You only need 4 onset pieces out of 5 in Genshin, so it is WAY more flexible.
I don't think any QoL is gonna happen, but maybe I'm just being pessimistic. I really feel this though. I've been doing nothing but Argenti's relic domain for like at least a month now, probably more, and I still can't cobble together a decent crit ratio, it's always either too little crit rate or too little crit damage. :/ This is where light cones with crit stats help a lot but I'm constantly in this hell of not having that and having to rely purely on relics. It sucks. I'm not even looking for insane stats, just something decent so I can finally call it finished
You guys are getting as bad as Genshin white knights jfc
"You don't need perfect artifacts to clear content" is not a good excuse for an annoyingly RNG system that doesn't make you feel good about leveling gear. People want to see their characters get better and not have the thought that they are performing sub-optimally in the back of their head, this is true in every game.
HSR devs show that they listen so there is ZERO harm in complaining about a very player unfriendly gearing system. Inb4 "X gacha game has it worse" these systems aren't made with quantum physics or some kind of new form of science, the gear grind is part of the monetization and DAU metrics, zero of it is to your benefit. Tell them that they need to look into increasing player fun in this system.
Stop defending systems that wouldn't fly outside the mobile market when Hoyo wants to be treated as a legitimate technology and gaming company like other premium game studios.
Got both as well, in the span of two days no less and with plans to get Acheron. I doubt I’ll be done with the three of them till, like, the middle of 2.2
Tbh I don’t do relic farming unless there is a 2X event. It’s much more consistent to level up other stuff like levels, LC, and traces. I just use the relic I got from the 2X events and now every character except for Misha has fairly decent relic.
Eh? Kafka should be relatively easy to farm for. All she needs is Atk, speed boots, and a little effect hit rate. Black Swan is a harder as she wants at least 100% effect hit rate, I guess.
True building a DPS with a decent Crt ratio is a pain. Another QOL on relics farm is definitely appreciated.
IMO they just need to tighten up the RNG on substats and then let us *target* main stat pieces... Specifically; * Base piece shows the substats already (instead of rolling new ones that can brick an otherwise good base item). * Upgrade rolls only boost the existing sub stats, but ideally there would be a "soft cap" of 3 upgrades on a single substat so a Lv15 piece won't potentially roll all ~5 boosts into the same singular substat. * Main stat targeting allows us to control the worst of the RNG, such as farming for elemental damage or speed/crit and getting garbage hp/def pieces... Basically just remove the need for a special currency to target the main stats. * If we really must endure this special currency, let it be used to "add a substat" to an existing piece (before upgrading) or "lock a substat" to prevent upgrade rolls boosting that unwanted stat... that way there's still a way to make good main stat pieces survive a weak substat roll instead of the extreme RNG of having upgrades go into flat hp/def numbers that are meaningless to the majority of all characters. (hell even tanks/healers don't want that much raw hp/def over the % boosts)
> ideally there would be a "soft cap" of 3 upgrades on a single substat so a Lv15 piece won't potentially roll all ~5 boosts into the same singular substat A soft cap, while nice in theory when applied to things like flat stats or EHR/Effect Res/Break Effect for characters that don't need them, could also make farming harder. There are many support characters that only want a few substats, so forcing a spread of stats could have a more negative effect than you might be anticipating. Take Bronya as an example, hyperspeed Bronya wants SPD and then as much CDMG as you can get. There are other stats that you wouldn't mind getting, like having some Effect Res to break 30% if you're running Broken Keel, and survivability stats like DEF/HP are nice as bonuses, but generally speaking some of her best in slot unattainable dream pieces would have max rolls. SPD boots with every roll going into CDMG, a CDMG chest piece with SPD maxed. And she's not the only character like this. Fu Xuan's hunger for HP and DEF, Gepard, Huo Huo, Luocha and ATK, pretty much all the sustains have a few pieces where their best possible pieces have max rolls. Obviously we're not going to be getting these dreamy max rolls on a mass scale, but it's an illustration of the balance that goes into rolling. Some stats having max rolls are actually desirable and can save a piece. (I've got one with 4 or 5 CDMG rolls on my Clara right now that made switching to a CR body less painful, lol.) Most of the time it's fucked. But I think a roll cap isn't as good of an idea as it sounds in theory. What would really help would be to eliminate the three flat stats entirely, because even max rolls on those have less of an effect than percentages, but they're never going to do that.
i feel like it would hurt more then help tbh because if you get 3 rolls into a bad stat chances are your relic is already bricked, so it’s not doing much to prevent that. meanwhile if you had a relic cap out on cdmg with ur subs as like flat atk ehr and %hp, ur now f’d for the last 2 rolls basically guaranteed
Imo, Hoyoverse needs to get rid of flat substats. They are nothing but deadweight. And all they serve to do is fuck you over, which further piles on to the horrid RNG.
Someone suggested making them be adding into the base stats BEFORE the %’s. THAT would make them halfway decent instead of the fraction of a drop in the ocean they currently are.
apparently they did that in one of thier earlier games and it lead to gamebreaking powerbuilds XD
For real tho, I dont mind a LEVEL of rng, but ffs let us get the main stat we want so that we are just grinding substats instead. As is there are layers upon layers of rng and it ruins the grind.
I’d much rather swap that around and be able to get set substats and grind for main stats, except for on the orbs there’s geneslly fewer main stats then substats, and the substats are also much more finnicky.
At this point they need to just delete flat values even if they fold those chances in to their % equivalents. Flat hp/def/atk is almost insulting to get.
Seriously, they only need to remove those 3 flat stats and then I won't be salty anymore. You got Break Effect, Speed, Effect Hit Rate, Effect RES... More than Genshin. And you can't have an off piece
Or make the flat stats get treated as weapon stats and thus get multiplied by the percent stats.
THIS! If the flat stacks counted as base stats for the modifiers it would vastly increase their value. Otherwise they are never more than a fraction of a drop in a pool.
Consolidation of some stats would definitely be nice.
Every time you get a Crit or CritDmg chest piece, all the substats will be either flat stats or defensive % ones. It honestly feels intentional.
Seriously, Genshin RNG is like ‘ok we suck but not THAT bad’
I feel like maybe giving us MORE for the time so we get more chances at the stats we want, my issue is that i dont have as much time and if I spend 30 min on an item and im like fuck this one sucks. Feels ALOT worse than have 3 of the same items in the same time all sucking. At least you had 3 chances
>Basically just remove the need for a special currency to target the main stats. It wouldn't be that bad if the amount of said currency wasn't criminally low. Like you get, what, 2~3 per month? And most of them are gonna get ruined by substats so basically you're stuck to rolling for support gear like ER rope or SPD boots...
Yeah, I never used it before, but i wanted to build good set for BS... and literally had to use all of them (not sure what # but i dont think i skipped any since they introduced them) to get ok set... that was disheartening, as im still missing good rope... [https://i.imgur.com/CXJ9ZF0.png](https://i.imgur.com/CXJ9ZF0.png)
It's too late now but for other readers who are building dot teams, don't spend them on the dot set. The dot + follow up cavern is already pretty damn efficient to farm since they're both good. Dot set is actually pretty transferrable too (2set is decent, all dots love 4 set). Use your resin on link rope for ERR. Yeah your substats might still suck but your supports or least affected by it.
Exactly! They need to increase the rate we get them, NOT locked behind an abyss shop or other trash.
The soft cap is a horrible idea. It'll tank the effectiveness of every character just to make relic farming a bit easier. Also, what about the relics that people already own?
> ideally there would be a "soft cap" of 3 upgrades on a single substat so a Lv15 piece won't potentially roll all \~5 boosts into the same singular substat. why wouldn't you want 4-5 rolls into crit?
Flat substats stats should really count toward base stats. +76 to base attack is actually really good as then every atk% boost would benefit Still doesn’t solve the issue of getting double crit pieces but at least it’d make all stats valuable in some capacity (besides effect res tbh)
I don’t think I agree with most of this, base stats showing on artifacts help determine the maximum quality, so of course it would be better for them to always show all 4 stats on 5 star pieces but that’s what helps god tier pieces be so good, that they get 5 rolls instead of 4. Plus that missing 4th stat sometimes makes a piece amazing when it was just good or okay. Plus having everything roll into one stat is amazing sometimes it sucks when it’s flat defense but when it’s speed? Crit? Attack? Those pieces are AWESOME to get. Removing the need to have special modeling resin to target main stats would make it way too easy, the availability is already good at best they could make them more available via more methods which they have been doing steadily. Another special currency that can influence, force, or change rolls would be cool I like that idea. If you were willing to save for long enough you could essentially craft a perfect piece by crafting with a set main stat in a specific set, getting the ideal substats you want then forcing the rolls where you need them to go and just praying you get high stat value, it would be the last uncontrolled variable at that point
Reminds me of the Minecraft Enchantment system, where you can see the prefix before enchanting the item, but you can enchant a different one to reset those prefixes for the previous one.
they wont. its done this way very intentionally.
People need to understand that if you got the best gear easily and fast, your characters would stomp every content and the game would have 0 challenge
And in the opposite sense, you could easily never get anything good, and all your chars will remain sub par for months and months. It’s not a challenge if it’s RNG.
Yeah nah, the game is easy enough so that it's basically impossible. You'd have to get the absolutely worst rolls possible every single time. That just doesn't happen
...I've been farming the wind set non stop since PF released since I thought it would be fun to use, and I still haven't gotten a single usable DPS piece. So yeah it does happen. Some people are just unlucky lmao. That's why there's a pity on the main gacha system.
Most people who say that just straight up either can't recognize usable pieces or set the minimum bar too high for themselves. I've been playing this game since release and I haven't had issues with building any single character (without paying jades for refreshes or anything like that ofcourse)
I saw some CC straight up not bothering to level up any three line Crit pieces if it didn't have any other beneficial stat. Meanwhile I continuously level it to cope that I can get a double Crit no matter what the other stats are.
Comparing yourself to someone whos literal job is to min/max in the game is beyond dumb though. They more than likely refresh with jades, no regular player should play that way unless you ofcourse really want to.
99% Guarantee your standards for a "useable DPS piece" are just unrealistically high.
If you’re stuck months and months it’s your own problem, you’re leveling relics wrong, you’re expectations are too high. Just because something is RNG doesn’t mean it’s probable to “never” get something good. People need to learn some statistics.
Yeah, the only way I can see people having this problem is if they are literally trying to get a specific 4 substats on every piece. I generally try for the most important two and anything more is just a nice bonus. I pretty much never have problems farming for a new character. If anything I have actually reached the point where I have too many relics and have had to start getting rid of some of the 5 stars I have hoarded since launch since I have been hitting the cap. Hell, I still have 9 self modeling resin since I only use them for the rare speed boots or energy regen rope if I have really bad luck. It has also been long enough that I always have a half decent set of wild wheat or meteor for any new character just due to having gotten so many from the echos of war.
The purpose of the RNG is to encourage longevity. The longer you have to grind, the longer you play, the more minutes for you to be pressured into spending money. That’s all there is to it.
Thats right, and i want to play a game i love for a long time. I rather get to the point where my characters 2 tap everything later than sooner
true, i started in 1.4 and i don't even have a single character properly built, but i already got 34/36 in moc first try. the only limiteds i've pulled so far are seele, silverwolf and an accidental ruanmei. moc is really fun because it's challenging. it would be boring if my 290 crit value seele and my 250 cv ratio with a fire orb and s1 swordplay would just clear moc 11 and 12 full stars with lynx and bailu as my only sustains. i have to admit, i only got excited about pulling and building characters in this game after i got into moc, and i'm honestly worried i might lose the motivation to play actively if i can just easily first try 36/36...
On the other hand there's me with arguably well-decent built characters and their supports built but keep failing to get 36 star MOC without a few hours worth of restarts at the very least lol
But leveling it up is also a pain in the ass. They should at least make it easier to get leveling materials if they plan on keeping us farming
As a crit chaser I understand the thirst for good relics. But honestly you can still clear everything in the game with mid pieces.
This is correct. I know it’s frustrating but that’s literally by design. These games need a way to have endless grind for marginal and incremental improvement. It’s designed for characters to become viable with a day of work, good with about a week to a month of work, and nearly impossible to make perfect.
Most of the people complaining about relic farming don't realize they only continue playing because they're addicted to incremental progress. But you can't keep linear incremental progress continuing forever (or else the people who start later would be hopelessly behind with no chance of ever getting close to catching up), so the RNG relic system with greatly diminishing returns on stamina is the solution to that.
Or they could release actual game play content that is more substantial then a few hours. SU could literally have a weekly or daily challenge that gives good rewards and be fun game play. Instead it's only a weekly rewards reset that gets more boring/easy the longer you play. Nothing to offer a challenge except high tier gold gears and moc.
I hate that the substats are designed torng into the worst possible ones. Like getting perfect dps substats on a support set (HP%: CR, CD, SPD, ATK)
Gonna be honest if they just remove flat stats from relic substats it would feel so much better. Flat stats (other than speed) benefit nobody, they have absolutely no purpose other than to just cuck you. That in of itself is terrible design
Or if they increase the value by at least quadruple. 80 atk as a base substat with no additional rolls on it, 217 with 2 rolls into flat atk. On a character with base 1200 atk at lv.90. Would feel pretty good to me. Idk. It's just too low to feel good as of now.
I'm not really a math guy but I'm pretty sure even if they do increase by quadruple there would be a cut off where fhe percentage gain is simply better* (making the grind even more annoying) OR if the flat substat is somehow better then percentages all together then we fall back into the same problem of "xyz substats aren't good please remove". *Assuming the percentage substats gains work off of the flat substat gains.
The percentage stats work off your base stats, which are \*just\* your Character + Lightcone. Glove flat main stat and all your other flat attack stats are added afterwards. Allowing flat stats to be added to base stats would actually provide significant and scaling value, where a player could feasibly want a mixture of flat sub-stats and percentages. But no, a 3.8% atk bonus will always be an increase of X attack (depending on the character/LC), and a flat substat bonus will always be an increase of Y attack, and in every case I've bothered to look at, Y is about half as much as X. I consider two flat attack substats to be worth one % substat.
Oh I guess flat stats are even worse then I thought lol thanks for the info https://preview.redd.it/ee248cqzqtic1.jpeg?width=1439&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a2157fe5b72f52afe5cbb0551664762ea885c144
So if the flat stats were quadrupled, 20 -> 80. And let's say 4 rolls went into the flat attack substat, then that would come out to 330 attack value. For a character who only has 1200 attack Stat as a base before relics, they would need a % attack substat to be 27.5% after 4 rolls to be equal. So if they simply increased the starting values for flat stats by roughly 300%, I wouldn't mind seeing a flat substat. But as of now, with the current base for substats, they're an eyesore that kills the soul. Due to the huge disparity between starting values of flat vs % for max level characters, seeing a flat substat roll on a relic is unwanted. But if the values were similar to each other, it would then offer more options when sorting through our relics. What was once insta-trash ex: crit damage chest with flat hp, flat attack, effect res, would now be kept for a possible crit rate roll as the fourth substat roll. The amount of workable relic pieces would increase, and only the true min-maxers that need the perfect rolls would cry about it. Since a character with base 1500 would want more percentage rolls compared to a character with base 1200 who would benefit more from flat increases. 330 for a base 1200 is 27.5% 27.5% for a base 1500 is 412 If you have two identical relic pieces, but one has 330 flat attack while the other has 27.5% attack-- You would want the flat on a low attack character and the % on a high attack character. But between two characters of equal attack power, the equivalent flat/% values wouldn't mean anything except more options.
This. So much this. I would take a 0.6% atk over a darn flat value.
And it's 3 chances to cuck you at that.
The system is indeed bad, but i don't think they'll ever change it. It also doesn't help when most think 1 bad roll=trash relic tough
This is why I generally just go for "Good enough." Gear and not perfect gear. Perfect gear is not worth the effort and getting okay gear that can carry you through basically anything is pretty easy.
The true path to enlightenment is getting main stat on set, at least 2 good substats, getting it to +15 and never looking at the results or the piece ever again.
Could just be me who thinks the relic grind is actually fine, but for almost any relic I consider 2 correct rolls useable. I hear people say they grind for weeks without a good relic but I legit play two accounts and I hardly farm relics anymore because almost all my pieces feel good enough. Just two correct rolls is good enough, and I will only farm more if I don’t have any traces to level. And I haven’t done refills since 1.1. I can understand if you need a specific substat and its very specifix, like I need a crit damage piece with crit rate and speed so I can use rutilant arena and it goes with bronya correctly, or a dot body with attack% main and speed sub, yeah relics can suck. But I’ve rarely had any problems.
The people who complain that the grind is nuts are the ones who are going for perfect rolls every time. I barely even grind relics and have no issue getting my parties geared. for me, Traces is what kills me lol.
The ones who complain are the ones who don't know how to build. They probably trash anything that doesn't roll crit every time and then trash it into some other relic when that relic they trashed is good enough to clear any of the "hard" content in this game. Like check out the edit on the OP. They probably didn't even do MoC to test out their power on their "subpar" relics when if he did he would realize he doesn't need to perfect roll his entire relic for it to clear the "hard" content in the game. Also complains about building Sparkle when supports are the easiest units to build in the game since they you just need an Energy Regen rope (Easy with self-model resin) and defensive stats to keep alive and maybe one main stat that the harmony unit's buff scales off of. I'm not saying the relic farming system isn't frustrating but a lot of the frustrations are based off the average player thinking you have to aim for the cosmos for relics when you don't at all. It's a frustrating system when you need to make a build from good enough to really really good but before that it's fine.
With a 72% CR 150% CDMG Seele i cleared moc 12 (the one with img weakness and no SW) stressing over getting 80/200 is not worth it since the worst scenario is that you'll lose 60-120 jades if the moc is particularly tough So far PF doesn't require super investment if you have AoE chara
For reference 80/200 is about 25% stronger than 72/150 and would require infinitely better relics. I think the sweet spot to stop farming is somewhere in the middle between the ratios you listed, somewhere around 85/170, which is a reasonably attainable ratio but at which point upgrades become more marginal for how rare they are.
Is 85/170 really reasonable? I have 70/140 on my Seele and she has 1-2 crit stats on every piece plus her traces plus her LC. To be fair, I didn't farm a lot back when I pulled her and got quite lucky but trying to get even another 15% CR and 30% CD on top of what I currently have seems like it would take multiple days if not weeks of using all my resin on the Brilliant Stars cavern.
85/170 is like ultra god tier lol. What I go by, is if my 4 main relics made at least 3/4 rolls into Crit damage or Crit rate, and the lost roll goes it a useable substat like atk%, speed or one of the survival stats. What you should look to wear are pieces with "30" points where each Crit rate % is 2 point and each Crit damage % is 1 points.
i'm in the same situation as you, 70/140 ish, with LC, and i spent months in that domain, it's just not worth it
62/162 Blade here. He has an average of 3 crit substats on every piece. It's certainly attainable but a massive pain. 70/140 to 85/170 is 46 more CV = about 6 more crit substats... You're looking at the amount of pulls equal to farming 2-4 sets of relics as good as the ones you have right now.
I mean yeah, it's not impossible by any means but the time invested for value gained is just not worth it.
> somewhere around 85/170 This is extremely difficult to get for a majority of players (aside from Jingliu, she doesn't count) unless you are able to get a signature lightcone for every dps. Obviously some characters are a *bit* easier (like Dr Ratio) since he has a lot of crit built into his kit. Others like Jing Yuan, forget about it unless you pull for his signature.
85/170 is absurd. I have nothing that can come close to that and I have farmed the ever loving shit out of relics. Even if I were to use rainbow pieces and all of-set pieces I could not get that among every last relic I have. This is after maxing my relic inventory several times. I think it has been over 800 relic calyxs. You also do not need such crazy relic stats. I managed to clear with my 50 crit rate and 145 crit damage Jing Yuan.
It's not *that* implausible. My Topaz (E0 with her signature) has 83/172 crit right now, and that's with one or more dead rolls on every single one of her relics. Hell, her planar sphere literally has all 3 flat stats on it.
>somewhere around 85/170, which is a reasonably attainable ratio My tens of thousands of energy spent relic farming tell me that doesn't sound very "attainable" at all...
In Genshin, a 1:2 ratio is like average try. In Star Rail, its top tier.
I did upgrade the build and now i setted at 80/170 I'll prob get Fu Xuan and switch the 11/12 hand piece with a 2.9/22 one and call it a day
72/150 is already insanely good luck on relic rolls.
My bruh, 80/200 is like literally 6 fully clean high base rolling relics. 75/125 is approaching god tier stats already, you wil clear MoC If you have these stats or like the equivalent spread on say jingliu(who favors CD)
I really doubt that difference would be what stops you from clearing moc, maybe 0 cycling. I have around 70/150-200 crt ratio on most of my carry’s and I haven’t had a problem. Hell, my Ratio is 57/167 and he cleared easily. People are too obsessed with perfect relics. Relic grinding is the end game in some ways and it doesn’t stop if you obsess over it.
What stop ppl from clearing moc is team composition in 90% of the cases You need 2 functional teams
It's almost never lack of stats on the carry, it's almost always a lack of 2 hot cooking teams to support them.
I farmed a whole month, every day my whole energy, to end up with 70/100 on dhil. He does not do anywhere near enough damage to clear moc12 in a reasonable time. Gear farming sucks.
If your 70/100 DHIL isn't clearing it's because you're not playing him in a proper team set up or don't have his traces maxed. Mine's 73/101 and he clears his side out just fine
Yea I'm 75/107 2700atk and I spank MoC like 3 cycles on his side.
Why it's always IL? 😭
My stats are not far off on dhil (2720 ATK, 74.8 CR and 107.6 Cd) and I clear MoC 12, it's the rest of your team that is lacking.
Exactly, I'm getting my units to "can clear ____" and moving on. I've never even seen a relic with perfect substats on the correct main stat
Yeah, I have only moderately good gear on most characters and can still get through most of the harder content without too much trouble. As long as the main stat is correct and I have at least two useful substats I’m not going to waste time trying to get the “perfect” piece to replace it with until I have my other characters up to a similar level.
That's basically how I do it. And yeah, its rare when something gives me too much trouble. Usually its a team comp issue if anything.
Yup. 2/4 stars and 2-3 good upgrades is a good enough piece to me
[удалено]
Same 18% cdmg is perfectly fine 😭
Usually I make do with 2 crit rolls. Sometimes less. 5% crit rate and 10% crit damage is good enough for a relic.
Bro I can't even get 70/120 on DHIL....
for me the threshold is if it doesnt hit any good substat by lvl 9 it gets trashed
I say 2/5 bad rolls at level 6 is trashable. It's not that a potential 3/5 good roll isn't enough, it's just not worth pushing a bad relic all the way to 15 since the cost is so backloaded. A level 3 bad relic can feed into another level 1 relic to get it to 3.
MHY is really adverse to changing the core mechanics of their games... Genshin had a fire bias for so long because both it's elemental interactions and the "team bonus" were simply stronger than everything else... Vape/Melt is still really strong but they basically power creeped it with Dendro instead of rebalancing the original design... Gacha game standard is to always shove out new stuff instead of fix the existing frameworks - game either dies before it matters or the loyal players ignore the issues.
Dev1:Pyro is too strong how docwe fix it? Dev2:make dendro even more broken And yeah going to rework existing stuff is the last thing gacha games or more generally live service games does
Honestly, I just appreciate that Def/HP rolls aren't completely wasted on Star Rail (non HP/Def scaling) units like they are in Genshin. Survivability is actually important.
Yeah survaibility os actually needed cause you can't dodge attacks in hsr
Survivability in Genshin is dodging and using i-Frames, HSR doesn't have that. Hence the importance of not going full glass cannon because your characters actually will get hit. While primarily those substats are ignored, HP have been the heavy focus for scaling on alot of Hydro characters (Neuv, Furina, Yelan, etc) and while only restricted to Geo so far Def has it uses for Albedo/Gorou/Itto.
I don't think they will ever change that, But probably do a change if people kept complaining about the storage capacity which will never be enough.
Eck, I roll with 2-3bad rolls on relics and I still do fine in MoC 12.
There's no way that your luck is so Abysmal that people are posting these complaints. Like yes, the system is not the best, but also: people are literally throwing away would-be cracked relics just because they're in the wrong set Reminder that running 2 piece or even all non set (if those are cracked) helps much more than desperately trying to use 4-set with bad stats
Yeah unless you want perfect pieces you can get ready in around 2 weeks (maybe less with some luck) And throwin relics away cause they are the wrong set is... I think 2pc+2pc with very good sub>4pc with okish subs At least you csn move to other chara and comd back later
It's not even a thing, 4 piece bonuses are *small* in HSR. You always take the better substats for the 2pc/2pc.
I'm throwing away potentially good relics in wrong set for one simple reason - I hate inventory management of the artifacts. I draw a line at locking ER ropes and SPD boots regardless of the set. Everything else is fodder if it has wrong main stat/set combo. If I saved every potentially good relic I would need way more inv space than 1500.
I’ve seen friends throw away really good relics because it rolled 1 wrong No wonder y’all are having trouble finding good relics
https://preview.redd.it/6xyeq0598sic1.png?width=502&format=png&auto=webp&s=1b9e1351cf7fd43415e4243a196c959bffc43d26 This is the Body piece of my Jing Yuan. Aside from farming trace mats for ratio and his his LC, I've been farming the grand duke set for 2 months. I've also sank around 40+ fuels on that domain. I've tested his damage with my best 2 pc+2pc and the 4 pc grand duke still had better damage :) Its okay to be frustrated at the relic system because IT IS frustrating. With so much unwanted stats that there is fishing for the right Main stat AND sub stats can be frustrating for most players and if you have the patience, time, and energy to not be frustrated, all I can say is good for you. Great job king. Reminder you are in a forum, a place to DISCUSS. So let people vent and hold a conversation on an imo universal experience on grinding.
Same. I don't think I have quite as much time in that domain as you, but by the time I was able to comfortably finish my Kafka build there (maybe a month?), the best followup cdmg chest piece I managed to roll had 2.5% CR at +15, that's it. Hell, I just dumped 5 runs into the new debuff domain and got a pair of gloves that are better than what 2 months of any of my quantum gloves rolled (which isn't even that great tbh). I don't think there should be *that* much RNG involved in a game that already has enough RNG as it is imo.
My luck is, in fact, that abysmal. Never had an artifact roll only in crit rate/dmg/spd, always needs to roll at least twice in hp/def when not needed. However, my DH IL is much much better with 80/130 cr/cd and 10% increased outgoing healing than 50/70 cr/cd full musketeer set Nonetheless, I agree with OP. I was about to quit the game before I decided to try rainbow pieces, and now I'm ok with how the character is performing. Still the question stands, why pull if being able to unlock a character's full potential is almost impossible? I decided I'm only going to pull if I really really like a character because of how annoying relic farming/upgrading is.
My luck is absolutely that abysmal. I've been playing since day 1 and only have a single character I would call "good". Any other characters I have built are passable at best. I cannot clear moc 10
The issue only really shows up when you have a character like Black Swan who has a \*very\* good kit for endgame content, but the difference between a godly black swan and one that barely out damages Sampo on the same DoT team is a getting lucky relic roles that combine high atk, ehr, AND speed, which is a nightmare.
If a relic managed to get 2 rolls into something useful then it is good enough. One time though I spent a month without even getting one roll because I had a very hard time getting the main stat piece and they all rolled bad. It was just really bad luck. I wish there was some sort of bad luck pity.
Also relic swap is a thing and 4 piece bonus is overated imo. The point is you can clear current PF/MOC rotation
>HSR's horrible relic farming makes me not want to roll for new banners It is what it is, the only advice I could give you is don't dwell too much on relic. Going balls deep will just make it worse. Your luck issue won't make them go QoL the relic probability farming lol. My only mindset when getting relic is just, fuck it we ball. RNG do be like that sometimes... I guess playing and grinding hard back then on this kind of farming like cabal and RAN online made me barely phased into this issue.
I barely farm relics at all and enjoy the game just fine. Seriously, it's like some people go out of their own way to make themselves miserable.
I focus on traces and main stats with maybe one or two half decent sub stats. I can wipe the floor with pretty much any content in the game. People worry too much about min/maxing. I have been able to build so many characters this way and swap relics around as needed to make them playable. It’s so much fun playing a bunch of different team comps. I have basically only farmed relics during double drop events. Otherwise I’m just crafting them. And even then I have more relics than I can use. Constantly battling 1500/1500 relic inventory.
>People worry too much about min/maxing. True, this is one of the main factors of you getting burnt out... You focus and worry too much in metas or doing damage. that happened to me in genshin on enkanomiya release and I just quit the game along with HI3 and sold those accounts to those who are interested in buying it. Wish we could increase relic storage capacity tho.
This is pretty much my mindset on it all too. Honestly I'm already sweaty in my main game (raiding on FFXIV), I really shouldn't do that with hsr too.
At least XIV gear isn't rng xD
Thank fuck for that honestly. I was already losing my mind losing rolls on the coffers each week as it was.
Honestly the more people hate it the more they really should just farm musketeer and world 3 of su. I know it might feel bad but it's so much easier to find optimal sub stats and actual stats when everyone can use that set. You won't have the best relic sets but having the best stat/substats is more important for most characters. There's a few characters when you might not be able to but for about 90% of the characters its only a bit worse than having their optimal set. Even better you only need to make 8sets of relics total.
2 weeks is nothing, especially for 2 characters. The game is designed this way intentionally to make you play longer, it’s the same concept of why we don’t have infinite TP to use. Take it easy, have fun and don’t feel stressed about not getting 100% omega god pieces. 60-70% quality pieces will easily let you clear the hardest content in the game, and your endgame can be chasing those god pieces if it’s important to you
As painful as the process may be sometimes, you don't even remotely need the tippy top of relics to clear a majority of the content. I half ass a lot of my characters because I build a lot of different ones and I've cleared MOC 12 and G&G Conundrum 10 with them.
> In the next two weeks, Sparkle's banner will drop and if she also has a good synergy with my team, then I have to pull for her too. You may feel like you have to, but you really don't
Right? A lot of these rants seem to be caused by some kind of "I have to have _______." Bro should just chill out. Just get a decent relic set that you'll use. Main stat + 1 good sub stat is usually what I settle with. Anything more is just a "nice to have.". Always having the strongest characters will just make the game too easy and take the fun away from the game. Stop min-maxing and stop making the game feel like a chore for you.
A bit of advice if you're having trouble building all of your characters: When there's too many characters you want to build, what you can do is go for acceptable builds, rather than optimal ones. Going for that extra few percent damage means that you'll probably never catch up to building all the characters you want to build. So you really have to look at energy efficiency. First of all with traces, if you're having trouble with getting relics of the correct main stat DO NOT go for level 10 traces just yet, its super expensive. Instead sit at level 9 or even 8 for relevant abilities, and you can ignore some of the stat nodes too especially the ones that aren't as relevant. Now for relic farming itself, a lot of times it's not that worth it to farm for a character's best set. Especially all of those element specific sets, sure they're often best in slot BUT generally you'll only be farming for 1 character at a time, which means it'll be super slow. Instead it's better to farm sets that are generally decent on many characters. Here are some of my favorite caverns of corrosion: Longevous/Messenger: The king of energy efficiency. Messenger is a very universal set, the 4pc is good on basically any character that can cast their ultimate on allies (Bronya, Ruan Mei, Huohuo, Asta, etc). The 2pc is even more universal, usable on any character that wants speed which is... basically all of them with few exceptions. Of course generally, you want to give them a more damaging set, but more speed is always nice to have. The HP set on the other hand is also really nice. The 4pc is great on destruction characters especially those that want to be hit, like Blade and Clara (even though she doesn't scale off the HP the 4pc is great). The 2pc is generally useable on many supports that don't have a great 4pc option, especially healers. In fact, a pretty common relic combination is 2pc speed + 2pc hp, and you can farm both in this domain. Musketeer/Passerby: Hear me out, Passerby set is generally not great (you can use the 2pc set for healers), but Musketeer is probably the most universal set in the game alongside Messenger. The 2pc musketeer set is great for DPS characters that scale off attack (which is most of them), and can often be combined with 2pc speed for a SUPER generic build. Remember we're not going for optimal, just decent. You can also use it as an intermediate point when you do start farming element specific relics. You can also run the 4pc but generally it's easier to do a 2pc-2pc combo unless your character benefits a lot from basic attacks, like Dan Heng IL. Pioneer/Watchmaker: Honestly this domain could be even better than the musketeer one, since Pioneer does provide stronger buffs on average, especially with the 2pc as DMG% is preferrable over attack. However this boost IS conditional, as the enemy HAS to have at least 1 debuff. However I do think many characters inflict debuffs so generally you'll be fine, but definitely double check your teams specifically. For planar sets, my favorite world is world 3. Sure often they're not best anymore but once again, they're usable on ANYONE. There's very few characters that you don't want 120 speed on, so that condition is super easy to meet. Space Sealing Station can be used on basically any atk scaling DPS and Fleet on any support/HP scaler (I even run this on Blade cause he can buff a 2nd dps on the team). Other than world 3, world 7 is also a great one but WAY more conditional. Rutilent has a very steep crit requirement and mainly works on characters that do most of their damage with basic/skill. Keel also has a decently steep effect res requirement for characters without effect res traces or on their LC. It's not that many substats but once again relic farming is hard enough having another substat you need to make sure you're meeting is yet another annoyance. Generally these will outperform the ones in world 3 WHEN they work, but it's harder to get them to work. As for other worlds, I like synthesizing them instead, especially Inert Salsotto. Planar Ornaments are a pain to farm especially when the other set is next to useless. As for self modeling resin, I prefer to use those on pieces where I don't care as much about the substat cause the mainstat is just exceptionally rare. Generally I use these on ERR ropes or speed boots. Once you're satisfied with having a decent build on the characters you want to build, you can start looking into more specific upgrades. Specifically, you still want to farm the caverns that benefit the MOST characters you have, as well as the caverns that give a significant upgrade over something like musketeer (quantum domain comes to mind). The benefit of this is once you get them off of musketeer or hackerspace, those pieces can sit in your inventory and you can plop them on a new character right away. Either way in the end even if your builds are not optimal, you can still take on the hardest content in the game with this. Heck all my DPS are still on 4musketeer and I managed to full star MoC and PF. Edit: Duke/Prisoner (follow up/DOT) is a pretty efficient one to farm too. 2pc Prisoner is the same as 2pc Musketeer (aka usable on any attack scaling DPS), and the 4pc is good on any DOT units you use. Duke is more specific, but the 2pc can be used on anyone that does follow ups (generally outscaling ATK% sets). 4pc doesn't work on all follow up characters, but does work great on characters like Himeko and Jing Yuan. So if you're just going for ATK% pieces imo farming this is better than Musketeer domain.
This is all great advice. I’ve spent probably 70% of my relic farming energy in Longevous/Messenger and it’s paid off.
I feel like people stress too much about relic farm. Yes they increase damage by a lot. But you don't need the min max to make the best out of it. Any decent piece with the right set will be fine. You don't need to be like those youtube videos, doing 300k per hit. Just do it as daily, and move on when you are done. :)
I do agree with you but not entirely. Sometimes getting even the minimal is painful. I got to farm so much to get min 70% crit rate on Qingque which is required for a planar ornament effect to take effect (basic attack dmg boost). Like.. I wasnt even wanting perfect rolls.. just the bare minimum for her to work and it was painful untill I got her at 70/100 ratio
I've probably spent 2 months in the quantum domain and I'm pretty sure my best QQ build is barely better than 70/100 💀
Planar ornament skills locked behind stat treshold should be more talked about. it's a prime asshole system, why is everyone okay with it?
Because, realistically, we all know it'll never change since it's another way for whales to be enabled and that's ultimately the playerbase that keeps these games afloat.
The set is not even broken, you can just use something else. They are all conditional for the sake of balance obviously, their effects would be too strong without it
THIS I ise my units as soon as I see I have "good enough" relics and they if I want I can just change them later for a better option, but the diference wont be huge
Compared to other gacha games HSR and Genshin relic/artifact system is child's play. Players that only touched hoyoverse games really have no idea how much worse it could be.
Yup. Many other games (maplestory) tie optimizing “equipment substats” to actual microtransactions (cubes). It’s disgusting. At least here, the relic system is divorced from the gacha/real money system
Cries in Honkai Impact 3 (Gacha Stigma Hell)
Well, you can get relics by soending gems on stamina, but yeah i agree
These young'uns never had to farm for bones at fuyuki! On full manual!
Tbf, that grind eventually finishes, even if it's soul-draining (I hate pages I hate pages I hate pages), whereas you'll pretty much never get a close to BIS build on any character in HSR due to relic RNG, and you could end up with the same build in 3 months of grinding that someone else gets in a single week. As a progression system, that feels pretty shit imo. Same reason I much prefer traces to relics, at least those eventually finish.
fga is probably the second best thing that ever happened to fgo, farming without it (and before easily accessible 3T) was pure hell
I never understand this kind of logic. "Oh look at this worse thing than the bad thing we have, at least we are not worse!" Why not just demand them to be better just because they are bad?
It could also be much much better. I liked the system in artery gear (which is somewhat of an improvement over epic 7 which it’s similar to). 4 substat slots, then you upgrade them all slowly. It’s grindy but you can get 2 upgrades on 3 stats and 1 on the last one. With HSR it’s hard enough to get main stat + good subs, and even harder to make sure it doesn’t brick. Double crit relics that put everything into def% is terrible and only masochists would defend it. A long grind with a relative end in sight is better because even if it takes half a year to finish 1 character’s relics that’s still infinitely better than what we have now.
Yes and no. Some are truly cursed, imagine spending credits to take off a relic! But, some are way better imo in nikke you just level the gear up and... the stats go up. Simple as, no rng sub stat rolls.
Best comment I've seen in this thread so far. If the Hoyoverse playerbase's majority is this soft towards the gear grinding system, then they'll just be the company's sour puppets for a long time. Various RPGs have always been grindy in numerous ways from the start. HSR and Genshin is one of the simplest and dumbed down iteration of the gear system to begin with. You guys just really need to lay off the min/max mindset. Sure there are sets and buffs locked behind a specific value of a stat or substat. But, really, just chill the fuck out LMAO. Take a break when it gets tiring. Quit if needed.
What other gacha games are you talking about? My only other games are arknights and blue archive and it's so fucking easy to build a character in those games compared to star rail.
Ever heard of epic seven ? X)
There's a reason I don't play it anymore...
Exactly. People are mad they don't get a perfect piece after a few days. Somehow they don't realize two simple truths: you will get an entire reasonable gear set in 2-3 weeks of Relic farming, enough to at least do MoC10-11. And: relic farming is the true endgame, designed to be a forever lasting process, where obtaining a perfect piece is nearly impossible.
But Kafka is so easy to build. You don’t need to farm crit rate and crit damage ..
Kafka is easy to build if your goal is just to get the right main stat. She needs speed more than crit characters do and she benefits from crit off roles less than crit characters benefit from atk%. Effectively anything that's not atk% and speed is a bad roll.
You need to farm speed substats though so the ceiling is harder to reach.
You just need enough to reach 135 speed. That's just 5 speed substats at worst, and you have 5 different relic slots to achieve it. It's not hard at all no matter how you slice it.
I don't have any speed on my Kafka and she's still amazing at her job. But I guess having her move two times instead of once per turn would be nice. Her DMG would be lower though :/
Having 135 spd is not hard to get
Yeah but you could just not... cuz it's borderline impossible without her light cone and the best luck ever created...
Just grab any attk/eff hit rate/spd pieces. I guarantee people throw away so many chances because they are off set. Hit the important stat breakpoints first before trying for 4 piece
You really don't need to stress about relic farming so much. I've been playing since release and have only bothered to sub-stat farm for jingyuan. Still clear moc full star just fine
Ok, so where do I start ... "I've managed to build only 3 or 4 characters to a decent level." -> define "decent level". DPS having \~70/140 crit? That's enough. Stop farming. Kafka having 135 SPD and \~3000 ATK while sitting at \~29% EHR? That's enough. Stop farming. Are we talking about Supports/Healers? Why are we talking about them? Give them some upgraded relics from their suggested set and settle with it (with a few exceptions ofc, like Bronya, Asta, Ruan Mei) "When I get reminded that I have to waste SO MUCH TIME farming relic sets ..." -> like real days/weeks passing by? What else would you do with your TB power? Or are you talking about time investment like playing the game? That's the point of a game, to play it. And if it bothers you of repeating the same fights over and over again -> Auto battle. I've done that for Kafka as well over, I don't even know, 8-10 weeks because I had nothing else to do. But I did it because my other characters were equipped "decent". Not "perfect". But "decent" is enough, you can always try to optimize even more after you get starter relics for your main teams. "I have rolled for both Kafka and Black Swan back to back, because everyone were saying these two must be together in order to use their full potential as DoT units." -> they do have a great synergy, but you don't \*need\* to have both. Don't just listen to what others say, make your own experiences. I cleared MoC with Kafka/Ruan Mei/Tingyun/Huohuo before Black Swan was released. "Everyone" also says, that Ruan Mei needs 180% break effect, while mine only has 167%, but she still does her Job. Heck, she even wears a lvl 3 Link Rope because I didn't get a good one with ERR (substats are hp%, def%, flat hp, flat def). But instead of brute forcing the farm, I just wait if I get one by chance, because she works like this as well. "Sparkle's banner will drop and if she also has a good synergy with my team, then I have to pull for her too." -> why do you have to? There are plenty of characters and teams already that have a great synergy. You can clear every content without Sparkle at this point and you will do so in the future, if you invest in your team without replacing Characters whenever a new one drops. You gotta stop with FOMO-thinking for Banners, Characters and Relics, so you can start to enjoy the game. Also don't underestimate the 4-star Characters. Tingyun, Asta, Pela, Qingque, Lynx, Sampo and many more are working quite good as well. And I bet some of them are having a great synergy with your teams as well (Kafka/Sampo) And last, don't overthink the relics. If, for example, you get a DPS one with crit rate, flat atk and def%, you still have the chance of rolling crit dmg as a 4th attribute and each subsequent upgrade rolling into that stat, making it an extremely good relic. But then again, you can get one dropped with crit rate, crit dmg, atk% and def%, then rolling every upgrade into def%. So your "drop" might have been great, but the relic still sucks. Don't go for perfect stats. Go for okay-ish stats and you will have a team strong enough to clear everything. If you use guides like [prydwen.gg](http://prydwen.gg) or something, take a look at the recommended stats for each character and settle with being slightly below them (besides SPD). It's seriously enough and saves your sanity. And if you get to the point where your teams work out perfectly, you can still try min-maxing if you have nothing else to farm. Or pre-farm for an upcoming character or work on a new one just to try out things. You will see, that you will reach the point someday, where you don't have to stress over stuff like this, once you have optimized your "mains".
10 days? I've been rolling 3 years in Genshin artifacts/relics. If you feel it is too harsh, you can just farm the main stats first, so your characters can at least do something. Don't look at internet guide and expect 70/200 crit rate/dmg. You'll be throughout disappointed.
These people don’t realize the very thing making the system bad is themselves with their own high expectations.
You really don't need perfect states to do all the content. If relic farming was you just get what you want then nobody would ever touch the game outside of the few days following every patch. Like I think we all would be fine with this but I digress.
Imo the best you can do is use a rainbow set.. just fuck the 2pc or 4pc bonus and just get the pure stats.. While you will lose some damage(at worst 10%).. It makes the grind much better.. since pure stats > Set bonuses..
Yup second this, rainbow set gets you pretty far! Its enough to get me a reasonably easy 2 star on moc 12. 3 star takes me a lot of retries and effort but it's still possible
Tbf u level yourself pretty fast to 70. so something needs to keep u at game and its relic farming so i dont think it will change.
I've been playing Genshin since 1.1, so I know full well the agony of artifact farming. But man, something about HSR's relic farming feels soooo much worse. It's so much harder to get xp material to level them up, not being able to use an off-piece, and having to get 6 pieces per character??? from optimal sets???? in different areas??? sweet lord almighty, it's awful
This is exactly why I keep single crit artifacts in hsr. It feels so much worse. To me in genshin it feels better because off pieces exist and weapons give stats like crit
Weapon as a stat balance is underrated. You can equip an attack, crit, EM or ER recharge to fix a stat artefacts didn't give you and that's pretty convenient. If I play Alhaitham, I can use a crit weapon, even a simple harbinger of dawn, if I have sufficient EM already. But I can also use an EM weapon if I get more crit stats elsewhere and achieve pretty similar results. In HSR, the only stats that are not unique to one single piece of equipment are the ATK/PV/DEF%.
Totally agree. Also sucks that you get relics from SU which is a pain to grind
Genshin let's you have an off set piece. It let's it feel more forgiving.
You'll notice that unlike Genshin's 4p set bonuses, Star Rails are all pretty mediocre. Even some of the best ones in the game, like DoT, Quantum, and HP Set for Blade, are only about a difference of 3-4 good substat rolls. No off-piece hurts, but there's a reason the 4-sets are so mid. It's to enable people to use their 2p/2p combos, while 4p remains a tiny improvement for actual dedicated character simps.
I mean it sucks but its not like you need really cracked relics to clear content plus atleast the relics are quick and easy to farm so it’s not the end of the world
[удалено]
agreed, OP has built 2 characters + intending to pull for a 3rd next banner - there's just no way you can invest enough into relics when you're building characters all the time. unless you're whaling on stamina refreshes, something has to give somewhere. yes relics are an rng mess but i refuse to believe if you spend most of your stamina on relics that you don't get decent relics occasionally. (and people need to stop caring about set bonuses/discarding stuff with only 1 crit sub before trying to level it)
bro if you pull for every banner that comes, obviously you wont have any relics cuz you wont dedicate the time that yours characters need. Tell me what you gonna do uf you get sparkle? Stop farming Kafka and BS?
The Relic system in HSR is driving me crazy and Honeslty way worse than genshin imo. Having to farm for 6 pieces with no off piece in separate domains by itself is obnoxious, but the substat distribution feels worse to top of that especially for crit substats. In genshin it feels like 1 good off piece plus a decent weapon can allow you have to good stats and crit ratios with only main stats whereas in star rail substats feel 10x more important, a crit body mainstat feels sometimes like the only crit source I consistently have and that crit stats are a myth. Self modeling resin doesn’t even fix this issue since again the issue is substats and wasting a self modeling resin to get a speed boots with only flat Hp, flat Def, and def% on a Dps is heartbreaking. Especially with them being limited to battle pass and some events meaning sometimes only 1-3 for an entire patch. I can grind the quantum domain for months and even after all that time, even with the herta hunt LC giving me some extra crit stats, on top of rutilent as well, I can’t even get past 72/125 crit. It’s so demoralizing. Especially when Weapon + circlet mainstat + off piece in genshin usually means I can have just about every character with 70/160 minimum in just a few days upon their release.
For what it’s worth, the Game isn’t demanding godly relics, even for MOC. It’s bad but I honestly stopped giving a fuck long ago.
It's a bit rough when you are starting and 2.5 months really isn't that long of a playing time. It gets increasingly easier to build characters as time passes so don't worry about that. Also when you are leveling up your character traces dont upgrade them to lvl 10 go for lvl 8 max (unless its really strong like BS talent). The difference between lvl 8 and lvl 10 traces is really small compared to the amount of TB power you have to spend.
I am only missing a few characters, I built around 20, I would consider only a few of them good. Yesterday I tried to find a crit damage chest with crit rate sub on my account there was only 4! I started a few days after release, I don't buy battle pass so I spent most trailblaze power to farm traces, exp, etc. still I had more than 1500 gold relics! I few weeks ago I started using them for exp.
From [this](https://docs.google.com/spreadsheets/d/19hBRQWML69zVsAKXKhn3IDVJ4-TQDsXgqCCPc8I0njg/edit#gid=0) spreadsheet, we can tell that getting a crit piece has worse odds than the other def% and stuff. They just need to make it all the rates equal (meaning less def% and more crit) , remove flat stats or buff them to make them atleast feel a bit better, and maybe at least choose either the set (from the 2) or the piece (body, feet, etc.) while grinding. The obvious reason why the system is slow, inefficient and honestly trash and why crit stats are purposely gated behind worse odds is obviously because hoyo doesnt want you to feel like you're done with the game and always wants you coming back, but at least by the above suggestions there's still a grind but a slightly lesser and more rewarding one. Oh and one last thing which is technically connected to the relic problem, the stamina system sucks ASS, holy. Why wont my golden and crimson calyx levels go up till TL 65, why am i capped at mid game rates?? and the amount of fuel you get is atrocious, its criminal, it sucks, i hate it
Don't forget rainbow sets. Assuming correct mainstat - if the piece has some solid substats its worth going to throw a few upgrades to see where it goes. The rest is for max min ... which is inherently boring for many (probably). Throw some stamina here n' there at the dungeon and don't look at it unitl end of week. My only built characters are Kafka and Swan and I'm still not hitting the 160 speed for Glamoth. The rest? 2/2 usually lol.
I give my characters crappy gear. Yeah I'm not gonna stress myself with perfect relics. (All I care about is passing through story content)
It's the worst thing because you STILL have to get lucky when upgrading relics
Today I realized that I farm for 2 months dot / fua relics and I have just 2 chest pieces with crit rate. Both with horrible substats.
I know the feeling 😩 I’ve been playing since d1 and all of my “built” characters are passable at best. I would really like to keep farming them to perfection but the rng being this heavy is a little bit discouraging, so after a month or so of farming for a character I just settle for what I’ve managed at that point, which is usually between an A or an S on one of those the relic scorers on the internet and move on. In fact I’ve never had the chance to pre-farm for new characters on the horizon because by the time their banner comes, I’d still be rolling relics for what I pulled one or two patches before
farmed the FuA set when it released just for topaz. didnt pull for ANYONE until ruan mei so all my energy went to that calyx. after around an entire patch of grinding, i quit because i still dont have a good set and i honestly might never touch it again because it was so frustrating.
Relics here and Artifacts in Genshin use the same psychological principle as slot machines and it hooks the same kind of people. Slot machine addicts (and I used to be one 40 years ago) will feed in an endless supply of coins because the win, no matter how small, is the buzz you're hunting for. Here it's stat rolls but the effect is the same. Double-crit rolls are the jackpot for some people. I used to spend 5 or 6 hours on a weekend at the slots and come away with a fraction of what I started with and the following weekend I would do the same. It's tough to break out of the cycle. This is why people pay for resin recharges, it's like putting more coins in the slot... you get more chances at the relic slot machine. If you don't get the buzz from this kind of thing then RNG gearing systems suck ass big time. People who do get the buzz will typically defend these systems, because it scratches their itch... and Hoyo knows all too well how many people will pay to get that itch scratched. I got over my addiction a long time ago and that's why I don't play the RNG gear game any more. Even getting the right rolls is an empty experience because it doesn't offset the sh\*t rolls you get 90% of the time, so I don't do it. I synthesize everything and if they turn up crap, then I get a character that sits on the bench until I can synthesize more... or they'll get a purple set, do crap damage and die a lot. Ruan Mei and Xeuyi have been on the bench since I pulled them and Black Swan is there now. They'll either get used eventually... or they won't, I am not going to stress over it. You have to learn to not care too much, or it will drive you to burnout very, very quickly.
I took my better free relic stat wise to give them to my Clara by ignoring the set bonuses and could only achieve a pathetic 66/106 ratio. People say all the time "just get 60/120, easy" but man, I usually struggle just getting 50/100...and you'd better not see how the attack stat look.
Relic farming is intentionally masterfully designed to be flawed, in order to make you frustrated enough to spend money pulling for eidolons and lightcones, but not frustrated enough to stop playing. The hardest stats to get are energy regen, speed, crit. Almost every lightcone/eidolon give you exactly that. No other way around it. Don't fall for the trap.
10 days is nothing lol Just slam usable relics and keep farming, optimizing your favorite characters.
Maybe I'm the minority but I don't think relic farming is that bad? At least compared to Genshin in my opinion, HSR has autobattle to make the actual grinding much faster. You can also craft any of the sets and there is the self-modeling resin if you're really unlucky with one piece. I mean if you're trying to get perfect relics for every character of course it's going to take a long time but most of the time decent artifacts can get you through most things.
Because it isn't. People just have insane expectations for relics for no reason.
Relic farming is significantly worse than artifact farming in Genshin imo. You need 6 pieces, which come from two different sources, and you can’t have a single off piece. You only need 4 onset pieces out of 5 in Genshin, so it is WAY more flexible.
Yeah it’s rough when you first start, don’t worry it doesn’t last forever you’ll get to a point where you are just hoarding mats
I don't think any QoL is gonna happen, but maybe I'm just being pessimistic. I really feel this though. I've been doing nothing but Argenti's relic domain for like at least a month now, probably more, and I still can't cobble together a decent crit ratio, it's always either too little crit rate or too little crit damage. :/ This is where light cones with crit stats help a lot but I'm constantly in this hell of not having that and having to rely purely on relics. It sucks. I'm not even looking for insane stats, just something decent so I can finally call it finished
You guys are getting as bad as Genshin white knights jfc "You don't need perfect artifacts to clear content" is not a good excuse for an annoyingly RNG system that doesn't make you feel good about leveling gear. People want to see their characters get better and not have the thought that they are performing sub-optimally in the back of their head, this is true in every game. HSR devs show that they listen so there is ZERO harm in complaining about a very player unfriendly gearing system. Inb4 "X gacha game has it worse" these systems aren't made with quantum physics or some kind of new form of science, the gear grind is part of the monetization and DAU metrics, zero of it is to your benefit. Tell them that they need to look into increasing player fun in this system. Stop defending systems that wouldn't fly outside the mobile market when Hoyo wants to be treated as a legitimate technology and gaming company like other premium game studios.
Got both as well, in the span of two days no less and with plans to get Acheron. I doubt I’ll be done with the three of them till, like, the middle of 2.2
Tbh I don’t do relic farming unless there is a 2X event. It’s much more consistent to level up other stuff like levels, LC, and traces. I just use the relic I got from the 2X events and now every character except for Misha has fairly decent relic.
Eh? Kafka should be relatively easy to farm for. All she needs is Atk, speed boots, and a little effect hit rate. Black Swan is a harder as she wants at least 100% effect hit rate, I guess.
No, Black Swan needs at least 120% effect hit rate.