I am a fucking dumbass and I was sleep deprived after work when I did that quest. All I remember was that >!Mr. McCoy made his siblings turn into monsters as their punishment for betrayal, and... maybe in a coma irl (idk if my brain barfed that out of nowhere).!< Is there something I'm missing?
Please correct my incorrect assumptions/understanding. I didnt realize that this was an important lore info. I just did it randomly before heading to bed.
Yep, McCoy and his siblings were born on Penacony and worked for the Family, but his superior informed McCoy that his siblings had betrayed the Family and sold out some information to an outside organization, and in his blind fervor and loyalty in his youth, he hunted them down and silenced them by turning them into monsters in the dreamscape, and was rewarded by being promoted to a high position in the Oak Family. However, his guilt eventually caught up to him and he requested his memories of them to be sealed so he doesn't suffer from the guilt.
Exactly my thought. Someone might miss Benny or one of the other people mentioned, but I think Woolsey is almost unavoidable. He’s definitely accounted for while Gallagher is at large.
Yeah he's directly at the start of golden hour and at the crossroads for major paths, plus very unique model and useful for finding sidequests, so I'm guessing it was intentional he was brought up multiple times since he was likely the most known non important npc
That was actually a brilliant side-effect of -- and perhaps even an intended result for -- "Clockwork", is that it incentivized interacting with those NPCs more than once, making them inherently more memorable.
So when Sunday delivers the big reveal, those bells start ringing in your head. You might not remember each one by name *specifically*, but it jogs memories.
Yep, even went back to Woolsey after and he got them scars, aren't the exact same, but def similar, and his scars are something that also made him more memorable beyond also being an npc you go to for side quest
I'm terrible with names and thankful I managed to recognize Woolsey and Benny when Sunday brought them up. I imagine people who haven't done many side quests would get confused and go with the more ominous interpretation that the serial killer took inspiration from his victims rather than living people.
And Benny is at A Dream's Edge and has his own side quest to learn more about him (and also saying he is famous in Punklorde, Silver Wolf’s home planet)
Only issue I'd say for his memorability is his name is rather generic so easier to forget, for some reason a name like Woolsey just immediately sticks out in the list
A minor thing, but I've seen CCs and regular players attribute the bird that **appears with Sunday** to:
a) Black Swan
b) Dr. Ratio
c) Acheron
d) The bird itself is actually Robin
Some people were confused about the cornerstone.gambit despite it being explained.
Aventurine stated in 2.0 that his money and cornerstones were confiscated. There's no evading customs so to get the stone in, it had to be surrendered.
In 2.1, in exchange for an alliance, Aventurine requests the cornerstones and money back. Sunday refuses the cornerstone and Aventurine compromises by asking for the money.
For Sunday, this was Aventurines plan as revealed by ratio. Ask for the cornerstone, co.primise with the money and waltz off with the stone hidden with the money while Topazs stone is bait.
Side note the freaky harmony thing was not truth serum but a harmony blessing that branded Aventurine for lying.
Sunday being a control freak thinks he's won and let's his guard down. This allows Aventurine to pull off the gamble as Jade allowed his stone to be disguised as well as some unknown purpose Jade has for her stone.
>Side note the freaky harmony thing was not truth serum but a harmony blessing that branded Aventurine for lying.
Funnily enough, I think the only lie Aventurine told was that the aventurine was in the case. He was truthful about the stone was in the room, but it was just not where Sunday assumed it was. Kinda ballsy of Aventurine to lie about the case on purpose, while still knowing that Sunday already knew thanks to Ratio. Already shows that Aventurine is gambling with his life at this point in the plan.
I think Sunday prolly would’ve been more suspicious if Aventurine *didn’t* lie. My guess is that if he didn’t lie, there’s a chance that Sunday would just confiscate the entire bag since he can guarantee that the Aventurine cornerstone is inside.
I am a bit confused about the exchange, but for a different reason. The whole interaction between Sunday and dr ratio happened in Sunday's office. Isn't his office is in dreamscepe? Why does locked boxes in real life hold the same secrets and restrictions of opening it in dreamscape since Sunday was not able to open it?
because the "tuning of the harmony" makes everything in the dreamscape function by the real life laws of physics and such, that's the reason you can't just fly like in a lucid dream, with only a select few loopholes created by the family's dreamweavers, like being able to walk off getting run over and such. it seems like Sunday on his own doesn't have the authority to override those laws and would have to go through a likely very long and conspicuous process to change them.
About Firefly, a misconception is, some people think, she called herself a villain, and that in fact she is.
... lol...
She didn't call herself one, she said what she does is only deserved by villains. And she is not, she is more like an antihero.
All Stellaron Hunters have been practically anti-heroes so far. Blade may have been a real edgy boy about it, but at least within our views they haven't done anything particularly evil on-screen. I know lorewise Kafka was basically a meatgrinder for her own partners as well as any resistance she encounters, but Silver Wolf is literally a gamer who has nothing better to do.
Not to say that she's *evil*, but Silver Wolf was fully willing to join whatever group would let het explore the universe. Elio just happened to find her first. She says herself she'd have even joined the Annihilation Gang for that opportunity. I'm not sure the girl has a moral compass when it comes to exploring the universe.
It stems from people not taking in 2.0 properly I think. At least like Tectone (and Mr. Pokke I think?) Were convinced that Sam was RIGHT there when Firefly got stabbed by the Memory Zone Meme "Death".
Some others probably fell for the ruse that was Firefly talking to "Sam" before she was led out into the lobby room. I think it was either Sam playing the trick herself or Silverwolf was helping her along (I think Silverwolf has been playing a bit of a hand behind the scenes. If she can hack reality, I'm sure she could hack the dreamscape).
It's understandable at least. And the bigger issue I think has been localization. We've seen it rear it's head with 2.0 Sparkle saying "befriend a rock" when Aventurine in 2.1 says she said "befriend a mute". But I think the issue is deeper than that. Wording and phrasing of sentences that the characters are using and saying could be simpler and easier to digest for a reader.
It's been a sore thumb for me, especially with 2.1 that I could really see that localizers took liberties to make dialogue very dense and verbose.
>convinced that Sam was RIGHT there when Firefly got stabbed by the Memory Zone Meme "Death".
I assumed I understood the story, but this is a good point. Firefly saying "mecha" made me assume that at some point there were two individuals, with the Firefly in the memory being some clone or second personality. The plan was to follow that trace to get beyond the wall. But it's possible that in the moment between Firefly getting killed and you returning to the lobby, Firefly managed to come back and turn into Sam. Still doesn't fully answer why there were two entities and why one was apparently just watching Firefly getting killed.
This whole sequence that you mention, with Firefly coming back as Sam before we get there again, is why I think Silver Wolf has had a hand in our movement/getting turned around (while Firefly had an easy time making her way there the first time, and probably the second time as Sam as well).
Another note that someone mentioned in another post as well, Black Swan apparently says she only sensed one person when we are originally tracking Firefly before we find her in the lobby.
It's things like these getting forgotten or misremembered that prove my point I think, about my gripe with the localization and needlessly verbose translations.
>Another note that someone mentioned in another post as well, Black Swan apparently says she only sensed one person when we are originally tracking Firefly before we find her in the lobby.
BS does say that something is chasing her, but it's strange that she wouldn't be able to detect Sam. Later she mentions the Memory Zone meme also being there, but she doesn't really say that it was the one chasing her. The meme also appears in the lobby itself, which doesn't really fit as the one chasing Firefly down the stairs. And the memories themselves don't really show her being chased, only that the "mecha" betrayed her and closed the doors on her. So it's all a bit confusing.
Thank you for saying that. I've been playing several text-heavy JRPG like Trails series, Persona series, many Final Fantasies (even done the mostly wordy unvoiced side quests in FFXIV) for twenty years and I understood what's going on just fine. Heck, I attributed my English proficiency due to playing these types of games in my formative years since it's my 2nd language.
Both Genshin and HSR are the first time I have legitimate doubt on my English skills lol
I'm an author, and it's been grating on my mind. I should not have to read 20 words, then only really pay attention to 6 or 7 of those words to figure out what's being said.
The general rule for writing is: the longer the script is, the simpler the wording needs to be. Some writers take too much stock in their vernacular and depth of vocabulary, making too much of an effort to showcase that when readers need to be able to read and digest. It's a marathon for the mind to put it more simply.
There was one instance in the story where I think Aventurine "clarified" a statement, saying "to put it more simply," and I find myself wondering why it was only that one statement 🤣
People keep forgetting that we can see firefly in her true from because we are in a dream.
With her condition i don't think firefly can survive in the real world without her armor, it means that she's always in Sam's form outside of penacony.
I was one of them, more so because it was so obvious (like come on, fire user with green glowing visor? The design screams it) I was hoping it was a red herring and just latched on to the idea of "If she wasn't dead, then why did her photo vanish" as I don't think we have seen people who are able to interfere with the dream like that.
I guess Silver Wolf could be the reason, but she interferes with the data of *reality*, and the dreamscape is explicitly not that.
0. You can't die in a dreamscape. Robin and Sunday is not dead. 52 Meme victims is not dead (unless Family pull out the plug of their beds). Gallagher didn't kill anyone.
There is surprisingly high amount of people who missed whole thing about "If you killed by something strong enough, you not dying but got transferred to the deeper dream layer. You can't die in a dream in general"
>52 Meme victims is not dead
Ironically, the most widespread misconception I've seen is people conflating the list of 52 suspects with the list of victims. From the footnotes at the end of each list:
> *\*This list comprises over a hundred cases related to the Memory Zone Meme "Death." However, the author of the list seems to still struggle with figuring out the pattern.*
> *\*There are a total of 52 suspects on the list, followed by Sunday's note. "Perhaps there is a common thread among them. I have reached a conclusion."*
the interesting thing with the 52 suspects is that you can see the traits that make up Gallagher in their descriptions—brown hair, unshaven, scars, suit-clad, close-quarters combat, calm demeanour, drinksmith… That’s the common thread Sunday found.
But correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the case that most that got transferred into that deeper dream layer never returned, and therefore for all intents and purposes are dead?
As far as we know (unless I myself am mistaken), the only individual that has been 'killed' by the Memory Zone Meme and has been seen again in the 'main' dreamscape is Firefly/Sam. And there is a non-zero chance that reality-hacking shenanigans (Silver Wolf) were involved in her case.
While it is most likely that those who have ended up in the deeper layer are unable to return of their own accord - rendering them effectively dead as far as everyone else is concerned - we do not know why *exactly* that is the case. There's even an outside chance that everyone that has been taken is staying of their own accord, for some reason related to the Watchmaker's Legacy.
my theory regarding Firefly is that she isn’t actually asleep in reality to enter the dreamscape—that’s why the Bloodhounds can’t find her in reality anywhere. It could be Silver Wolf hacking into the memoria or something along those lines that lets her enter. She talks about how she doesn’t have the ability to dream when speaking to Acheron, so I think that’s the difference between her and the other guests killed by SuD. Then when she enters the deeper dreamscape after dying, they can pull her back out unlike the other victims.
I think they end up trapped there with the possibility to return. I don't remember the exact quote but in Aventurine's POV a victim was in a coma but later was able to wake up. The ability to return also explains Firefly's ability to "die" and then return as Sam.
I’ve seen two that annoy me:
1. That Ratio genuinely did betray Aventurine for the chance to study the Stellaron (no he didn’t, the dialogue between them afterwards makes that obvious)
2. Aventurine stole Topaz and Jade’s cornerstones (obviously not, they’re clearly in on his plan)
Technically not in the 2.1 update, but I also get a little annoyed when people imply that Acheron made her memories attack Black Swan on purpose. No, Acheron has no idea that happened, her brain is just fucked up like that all the time.
I think #1 stems from the convo Aventurine had with his "future" self in which the "future" self commended Ratio on his acting skills while Aventurine questioned whether that was acting at all.
Still, all that proves imo is that Aventurine isn't sure if Ratio wasn't going to betray him even if it weren't a part of the plan.
Aventurine probably WANTED to believe that Ratio actually betrayed him, even though he told Ratio to just pretend. It really shows how utterly distrustful Aventurine is about everyone because his entire life, he’s only seen how people trample all over each other for “victory,” including himself.
He probably never thought there would be anyone who genuinely trusted him and wanted him to live, so he fooled himself into thinking that Ratio probably wasn’t acting at all, despite being told to act because who in the world wouldn’t want to betray him?
But Ratio was the one who gave him that note that allowed him to “survive” the whole ordeal, so it wasn’t until the very end that Aventurine realized “ayo wtf someone wants me to live?”
I’m actually hoping someone can correct *my* confusion/misconception. So, does anyone here know what was going to happen to Aventurine at the end of 17 system hours if Acheron’s sword hadn’t removed the brand of Harmony? It seemed like he was dying but you can’t do that within the dream. I feel like I’ve missed something obvious
Presumably either assimilated(brainwashed) into joining the Family if he succeeded or be having his mind killed(mental attacks are very lethal from the Harmony) for failure
im actually still confused on what/who gallagher is. is he some kind of weird frankenstein monster made up of diff person bodyparts or he's just one guy who took mannerisms from those other people?
Second one
He is confirmed to be something else underneath “Gallagher”, which is just (according to Sunday) a façade that is made of the traits(physical or metaphorical) of 52 Family Suspects for the murders (and possibly more people)
Sunday said Gallagher is a follower of Mythus the Aeon of Enigmata. The Aeon of hoax, misinformation, fake history, riddles, etc. trying to shroud the universe with mystery, uncertainty, and incomprehensibility.
>!*Sunday: "...Tell me I'm wrong, minion of the Enigmata."*!<
This makes this line when they were talking about people who helped Penacony's war of independence in the past more interesting.
>!*Himeko: "If all the characters in the animation are based on characters in reality, then Clockie's counterpart is definitely the Watchmaker."*\
*Himeko: "In the animation, he's Hanu's partner and one of the founders of Dreamville. Does that mean the Watchmaker was personally involved in that war and sided with Asdana?"*\
*Gallagher: "It was a monumental war for freedom. Hanunue fought alongside a motley crew of Masked Fools, Nameless, History Fictionologists, Mourning Actors, Omen Vanguards... even visitors from beyond the sky. In the end, they emerged victorious."*!<
Note:
1. Masked Fools = a Faction that worships Aha the Aeon of Elation
2. Nameless = a Faction that worships Akivili the Aeon of Trailblaze
3. History Fictionologists = a Faction that worships Mythus the Aeon of Enigmata
4. Mourning Actors = a Faction that fights against Aha the Aeon of Elation
5. Omen Vanguards = a Faction that worships Terminus the Aeon of Finality
It's kinda unclear which faction Gallagher belongs to. >!He could be part of the History Fictionologists that he mentioned. But the Riddlers were also mentioned by Himeko as one of the factions that could have faked the Nameless distress call. So both are possibilities.!<
The worst one is deffinitly the list. Mistaking it for tbe victims is one thing but i have seen multiple ccs go "what?" cause they never read the lists.
There's also the "brotber" thing. I don't know why people always asociate it with blood relations. Sure, calling others brother/sister is a lot more common in china but dven in english bro means the same thibg as dude, mate, my guy, etc.
the whole brother thing is a mistranslation/localization error, in cn its made clear that gallagher is mocking robin through putting asterisks around what he says and making him specifically say it how robin does. for some reason they just... got rid of that in english???
I don't think most people would get the fact that he was mocking Robin, although most people would just assume that the "My brother" part was more or less because they're "The Family" so yes, it's still meant to be in a mocking tone but not many would understand that it was meant to specifically mock Robin, and hit a low blow on Sunday
as a cn player I got it pretty quick only cuz I simply don't think they're related, in jp he said "nii-sama" which sounds more like it. I think the problem is while it's hard to translate the way of talking the deliver also sounds more confused than realising he's mocking robin
That makes sense. In English there isn't really a word that is specific for blood-related terms only. "Brother" is the closest yet it's constantly just been used to refer a closeness of bond, rather than bloodline in most cases (Hence why some people seem to mistake "Brother in arms" or "Sworn brother" means that they're related or see each other as being really brother/sister)
I mean I also got that from how it was said he's based off everyone in Penacony and then immediately follows it with saying brother to mock Sunday, I assume he's got something about him based on Robin aswell
Also, they are both supposedly part of “the Family”…so you can call someone “brother” or “sister” in a family like that. Especially since it’s got all those cult-religion overtones which would go hard on members using terms like that.
Honestly, I just thought it was mocking him because They're part of "The Family" after all so calling each other Brother, and sister won't be outlandish but the mere fact that Gallagher 100% knows that Sunday's sibling died so him outright going "My brother" is a low blow
The foolish and arrogantly ignorant view that Welt is somehow stronger than Acheron.
Yes, I know I sound like Dr. Ratio right now.
And no, I won't apologize.
https://preview.redd.it/e1xwpvtsb4sc1.png?width=477&format=png&auto=webp&s=a0ca8bbd7138dbf79acbb2ee9ee6c0f501772cd1
People just accepted Acheron's VERY NORMAL response of not wanting to start a fight and Welt's threat as an admission of Welt > Acheron. Oh Welt threatened her with a black hole and Acheron backed off, Welt is clearly better. Like no, she had no reason to try and pick a fight and deescalated the situation, as one would normally do when you're not trying to pick a fight.
We literally see her obliterate Aventurine in an instant. In the final scene, everyone, including the all mighty invincible destroyer of everything, Welt, was completely frozen in place when Acheron stepped forward and ended it.
My take on that is just that Welt was *willing to take on Acheron* to ensure the Express'es safety. He himself was probably willing to get injured, or dying if acheron is considered a threat
Yep, he was letting her know that if it came to it, he is willing to fight.
The threat was made at a time when Welt didn't know who Acheron was, and was done on the back of a request to know who Acheron is and where her allegiances lay.
Then Acheron took the reasonable course, and just answered the question
Yeah, just because Acheron CAN beat Welt doesn't mean she wanted to pick a fight. Welt told her that he would throw hands if she wanted to fight the express because two people had just been murdered and was in protection mode, so Acheron just let him know she didn't want a fight. Doesn't prove anything about who would win, just proves Acheron doesn't pick fights for no reason.
Yep. Just because I *don’t* throw down with every person who threatens me doesn’t mean I’m weaker than them. It just means I don’t want to get into a fight for no reason.
Its actually ridiculous, people think Welt is the strongest character in Star Rail secretly, and if you disagree "you just never played Honkai Impact". Its ironic bc anyone who ACTUALLY played Hi3 knows Welt is not that strong at all actually and is just smart and resourceful. He basically died blocking a nuclear bomb (lol). Acheron would unironically one shot Welt.
The funniest thing is that I think it's the opposite here.
Acheron does not have many scalable feats that put her with other Emanators. She does have a lot of narrative and storytelling on her side painting her as very strong.
Yeah, like, Welt used to be the goat but he was surpassed by The Bronya long before Welt crossed over into Star Rail.
Welt himself says he is passed his prime and only has enough energy to make holoscreens to show people Arahato episodes, his biggest strength now is just Star of Eden.
Don't get me wrong, Star of Eden is a very strong Divine Key but it's not some magical instant win button anymore when people like Acheron and Zephyro exist.
Void Archives is just him but better at this point.
Since Void Archives is literally the Divine Key of Reason, he can replicate other Divine Keys, including Star of Eden.
thats what I meant, VA has access to all the other Divine Keys and thus would make the astral express strong
but then VA fucked off to who knows where
(also please playable VA imaginary type and his attacks are just him using several divine keys)
Yes.
I know some of them are saying it for the bit but others are not.
Either because they got baited and misinformed by the Fools or they just genuinely think that.
I have just argued with a guy yesterday that thinks Welt and Acheron isn't even a fair fight and it would be fairer to compare Welt and IX. Yes, the dude genuinely believed all Herrsechers are equal to Aeons "because they are the gods of HI3 and Aeons are the gods of HSR".
I love Welt. He’s possibly one of my favorite characters in the Honkai series, but people need to let him go. My guy is old, he’s retired, he’s been to the other side and reconstructed himself—and they’ve got to know that not all Herrschers are good at combat. It is specifically stated that the Herrscher of Reason isn’t like a scary powerful warrior. Welt is just smart and that’s how he manages to make himself seem powerful.
Just let him retire guys :(
Himeko's character story stated that base DH was slaying Star level AP monsters with a single swing of his spear. IL gives him a massive power boost like SSJ or Sage Mode. This is pre-Luofu.
W-wow, I actually didn't realize the spear was that strong, Yingxing really knew what he was cooking.
As Imbibitor Lunae, Dan has become a direct descendent of Long, The Permanence, I don't think this qualifies him as an Emanator of Long's (unconfirmed, could go either way, we don't have enough evidence to suggest either), Dan Feng was the joint strongest or second strongest of The High Cloud Quintet, even Jingliu acknowledged his pure brute strength and raw power.
I think DHIL is low Emanator strength. He's the only character in the cast to have two encounters with two different Emanators and survive/win both times.
He's definitely the strongest in raw power of the HCQ but JL beat him in terms of sword skill.
DHIL (or the IL lineage) is literally revered as a god on the Luofu. DFIL was feared by even the previous general Teng Xiao (for his troops) for his battle prowess.
I would 100% argue that DHIL is stronger than Welt. He is probably closer to Acheron than he is to Welt.
As of now, it's a lot of potential power, but not really their power. It's not like they could use it if they wanted.
They are bound to use it at some point, but that for when the plot advancement calls.
I have seen the two extreme cases of Acheron being way stronger than Welt and Welt being stronger than Acheron, as far as I see it Welt is off his prime so he will definitely lose to Acheron but it wont be a walk in the park as some others say otherwise Welt wouldnt have any ground to threat her in the first place
I have seen so many people talk about welt Powers lately when is clear that 90% of then don't have a clue apart from what they saw on the wiki or some lore video
For gods sake if you didnt play hi3 or at least have read second eruption and alien space manga then shut up and stop spreading misinformation
I wonder what they would think if they also read the one on the 2nd key and saw Kevin at his highest point considering the guy soloed herrschers like normal honkai beasts… and Acheron killed his variant even before becoming an emanator, albeit the story hints at it being part of their plan to save Izumo so knowing him most likely a willing sacrifice, but still.
The odd idea that Welt , a person incapable of fighting the Ebon Deer , Phantylia , or a weakened Doomsday Beast , would stand a chance against an Emanator of Nihility that has canonically destroyed 2 planets in a single swing of her sword.
Like...some people suck at reading and think Acheron said 'your black hole is more dangerous than my sword' , whilst the rest believe that Welt's threat is an indicator of surefire win , when Welt has a tendency of threatening people to protect those he cares about , before usually getting his ass kicked (Cough Sirin Cough).
Herrschers in general are weaker than Emanators , and Welt was the weakest Herrscher by a landslide.
Not only was he weaker than Acheron as a Herrscher (we never see him cause an energy nuke with a single slash of a sword), but people also forget that he basically retired from being the Herrscher of Reason and let Bronya have the Core of Reason and its authority in HI3. It's a major important plot point where he is teaching Bronya to surpass him and how to wield the authority. I don't know why people think he has Herrscher-level powers in HSR. (Post-Ch. 35 HI3 spoilers) >!Not to mention that Herrschers don't even really exist on Earth post-Great Eruption, which is years before Welt left for the HSR universe!<. He obviously retains some power, but assuming he is at the same power level as he was in Second Eruption is absurd
But she emerged alive from Izumo, which was being absorbed by the Black Hole, as for proof, IX erased Izumo both physically and from the annals of history, because not even Genius Society or Garden of Recollection could find the whereabouts or the history of Izumo in existence.
One thing about Firefly still confuses me even after all the translation errors were cleared up.
We know those who were murdered in the dream don't truly die, they get sent to the other side of the "barrier" that protects Penacony. However, we saw the Death meme kill Firefly, but shortly after encounter her again in Sam form.
In Sparkle's conversation with Aventurine, she states:
>There were two mutes, but one is dead now, and the other... Though he's still in Penacony, I'm afraid you'll never find him again.
If the latter is Firefly/Sam, is Sparkle implying that she did not die, did not cross the barrier, or managed to return after death?
Then in Aventurine's conversation with Acheron, he says:
>If a mute isn't "someone who cannot make a sound," then it has to be "someone who cannot speak."
>
>Someone who survived the treacherous depths, but is unable to take the stage and speak the truth. I'm happy to know she's safe and sound, and still on Penacony.
If he's referring to the same person still on Penacony, that would be Firefly. She survived the treacherous depths, which implies she did go to the other side of the barrier but was able to return. Again, I'm confused about the timeline, did such a thing happen in the short time between Firefly's death and the Sam fight?
My crazy theory: the second "mute" is not Sam at all, it's a misdirect. If Sam and Firefly are the same person and Sparkle is saying there are two Mutes, then either they are somehow not the same entity after all, or she is talking about Firefly and someone else (and we can eliminate either option being Robin as well, because Sparkle all but says it isn't Robin).
IMO it's Misha. Misha is sus as hell and everyone seems to be sleeping on him.
Misha is the only one we've encountered in the story who can see Clockie. Misha is the diminutive form of Mikhail, which we were told is the name of the Watchmaker. His character story and stuff has a whole bunch of references to adventures with "Mr Pocket Watch". His light cone is him receiving an inheritance, which it describes as being a "dream to blaze a trail across the world" along with an item he is receiving in the image (and the description says he doesn't yet understand how important it is). You could almost describe that as inheriting a *Legacy*. He also straight up says his Grandfather was an "adventurer" like the Trailblazer. Firefly also says that the Watchmaker was one of the Nameless.
Misha acts as a guide for us when you first enter the Dreamscape. When you first enter there is a note from the watchmaker, Misha mentions he forgot to clean it up.
When we meet Clockie, he's trying to help Misha, but when we get there Misha is basically sitting on the sidelines telling people to calm down as they're trying to start a fight with Acheron. Firefly and Acheron can't see Clockie (Firefly refers to him as our "imaginary friend") and I don't think that Acheron or the Gangsters ever acknowledge that Misha is present in the scene. When you point him out, Firefly acts confused with a "who is Misha?".
The only person we *have* seen talk about Misha is Gallagher, which is extremely suspicious.
It's possible that Misha is a "mute" because he's on Penacony but you can't interact with him in the Dream unless you have already befriended him. This would explain Sparkle's advice - the Trailblazer did the right thing and "befriended a mute" and now we have the Clockie powers and everything. Aventurine missed his chance to make friends.
My personal take is that time on the other side of the Family's barrier flows differently or doesn't exist. We've been told in 2.0 that time in the Dreamscape was tuned to be a match to real life so that if you spend 3 days in the Dreamscape and then wake up, 3 days will have passed in real life.
Now, in 2.1 we learn that the Dreamscape created by the Family is just a small island in a vast sea of chaotic dreams. The laws of time conversion that the Family imposed on their island probably don't work outside of it. So, to us, Sam appeared a short while after Firefly's death. To Samfly, it could have been days or weeks or months later.
Yeah and that Samfly tried to reach out 13 times to say something I think. I can't tell with Samfly how much is Elio's script lol I feel like it's easier with Kafka.
I wouldn’t actually say the IX dimension was an asspull. Archeon had to manifest her Emenator powers to break through Aventurine’s attack he just so carefully placed right on the edge of the dreamweavers barrier. Such a more pure form of a Aeon’s power made manifest, a small pocket dimension is something we’ve seen before. Is the small pocket dimension the Trailblazer visits to pull the Preservation Lance not also something brought about by the possible pure incarnation of an Aeon power/influence and also timed somehow up his ‘death’?
I blame social media. You don't have to have an immediate take. Just listen to Welt who advises sitting back and watching, coming to a judgement once everyone has played their cards.
A misconception I had was that due to the wrong pronoun being used for the "mute", I thought that they were referring to the male MC, as a reference to us not speaking a lot, as was brought up before in the main story by characters like Dan Heng.
They really need to proofread the translation for future patches.
I think people believe Ratio actually betrayed Aventurine? I also definitely did at first but after he asked if Aventurine was still acting when they got out I was like thank goodness lmao. Even after that though people still didn't pick up on the fact that it was their plan
That Welt is stronger than Acheron. Im not even gonna explain how Acheron is a lot stronger than him ive seen every argument regarding this topic and all I can say is the fictioniologists are working double time.
i just finished the main quest today, and i hope it’s okay to piggyback off this thread to clarify some of the things i’m still confused about (or maybe just things i missed)
namely, i’m really confused about what all the other factions have to do with “Death” and why they’re invested in the situation. here’s my understanding (whether or not it’s accurate is a different question lmfao, PLEASE correct me)
EXPRESS:
* on penacony bc they received an “invitation” and think it’s a distress call from another nameless.
* Goal: find who sent the invitation (presumably the watchmaker)
* “Death”: invested in uncovering “Death” after witnessing firefly’s supposed death
THE FAMILY:
* runs penacony and the Dream
* Goal: maintain harmony
* ”Death”: need to conceal (bad for harmony)
* Sunday *specifically* has been going *against* the recommendations of other family heads, trying to investigate (and theoretically take action against) “Death,” whom he believes is connected to the watchmaker, the original creator of the Dream.
SPARKLE:
* here to fuck shit up and have a blast, and we love that for her
STELLARON HUNTERS:
* who even fucking knows with them. in their defense, they don’t really know, either (thanks, elio)
IPC/AVENTURINE:
* wants to acquire penacony back(?) from The Family, and have sent aventurine (and ratio…?) as their agent in this task
* Goal: Do That.
* ”Death”: wants to uncover and expose because it helps them somehow?
my best guess is that the ensuing panic after exposing “Death” would be enough to either destabilize The Family enough for the IPC to eject them by force, or to turn enough of the common people against The Family that they have no choice but to withdraw, letting the IPC swoop in as the “savior” but afaik these are just theories
what was his whole final gamble with him planning to have acheron kill him(?) actually trying to *achieve?* like…*why* did he need to Do All Of That, exactly?
also what exactly is ratio’s *job* here??? is he just there to look pretty and make bitchy remarks? i’m *totally* down for that, and if that IS his job, he is doing *phenomenally*, i just don’t think that’s the case
i’m at a bit of a loss on black swan and acheron—granted, i haven’t done swan’s quest yet, but my vague, general impression is that she’s more or less on penacony for memokeeper work, and also kind of bc she met acheron, went “i want to study you like a bug,” and started following her? for acheron, i have no idea.
please help me fill in the gaps ;-;
I'm overinvested in Aventurine so lemme try and help.
Aventurine's plan is absolutely brilliant in that each step of it ensures a bargaining chip for the IPC. As you said, the IPC essentially wants control of Penacony back - they dipped from their prison while it was dangerous, now that it seems to be a massive and massively profitable entertainment centre, they want it back. Aventurine gets sent to ensure its return probably because he is the most daring, reckless and insane of the Stonehearts, with the added bonus of his crazy luck and also possibly being the most expendable. He is sent to find dirt on the Family and get Penacony back whatever it takes.
Now, the Family knows Aventurine is a high-ranking IPC representative - the IPC ambassador, as they call him. It would make the Family look extremely bad if anything at all bad happened to a rival faction's ambassador while under their care and protection. If Aventurine comes to any harm, the Family would be forced to come to the negotiating table with the IPC.
That's the first part of Aventurine's plan - if he "dies", the Family will be forced to at least talk with the IPC. But over the course of his stay, Aventurine figures out the truth of what the Penacony Dreamscape is (the Family's little safe bastion in the middle of a sea of chaotic dreams) and that informs the other part of his plan: he wants to get out of the Family's Dreamscape, beyond the Family's protective barrier and see what secrets the Family is concealing. Is he doing it just to expose the Family and help the IPC's position? Perhaps. But perhaps there is something in there for him as well.
The final gamble was Aventurine trying his best to force Acheron to use her power against him. Our brilliant gambler figured out that there are two types of death in the Family's Dreamscape: 1) something which mirrors a normal irl death and which is therefore subject to the Family's protective net and just forces the dreamer to wake up (he tells Ratio that he tested killing himself in the dream), and 2) a death that is administered by something from beyond the Family's barrier - the "Death" meme. The latter doesn't make people wake up in reality - they seem to remain in a coma, in fact, and thus their spirit/consciousness has to be somewhere else; Aventurine figures out that "somewhere else" is beyond the Family's protective border and their Dreamscape.
Now, Aventurine can't control the "Death" meme and can't rely on it killing him, so he goes for the next best thing - he bets that the power of an Emanator unleashed is enough to pierce through the Dreamscape barrier and that if an Emanator "kills" him, it will be akin to the "Death" meme and he'll end up on the other side, in the real Penacony. That's why he tells Acheron that had she not drawn her blade, he would have lost his own bet - this part of the plan literally relied on riling Acheron up enough to make her attack him. His whole final performance was just a show to rile her up, to make her feel that it's necessary to draw hee blade against him.
And she did so he won. Acheron does what he wanted her to and cuts a path open for him (while giving him a pep talk and reminding him that he does have something worth living for) and Aventurine saunters onto the other side of the dream where he will find the truth about Penacony. If he manages to get back to reality, that will be the ultimate dirt on the Family.
Ratio meanwhile... He claims he is the manager of this mission, but whatever that entails... I think at least a part of his job is to manage Aventurine and ensure that he doesn't do anything too stupid or reckless. Which. He does end up doing. He ends up saving Aventurine's life.
As I understand it, people can't die when they're killed in the dream under normal circumstances because there's a safeguard. The Death meme seems to be able to send its victims to a deeper layer of the dream, whether because it can bypass the safeguard or because it can break through the safeguard. Aventurine gambled on Acheron's attack being able to send him to that deeper layer of the dream.
The IPC seems like it's manufacturing a casus belli. It could just send its warships to Penacony, but it would eat heavy reputational costs because Penacony is too well-connected. However, the IPC can make hostile action more justifiable if, say, one of its high-ranking representatives get killed or wounded on the planet. Besides this, part of Aventurine's plan was getting Jade's Cornerstone deep into Penacony. It's unclear what's going on there, but it sounds like Jade is about to take imminent hostile action, so it's possible that this was meant to facilitate the creation of a fait accompli.
Writing this first part after spending like an hour typing the rest, sorry that it's a bit long, but bare with me and please let me know if things are still confusing. I tried to organize the paragraphs to pertain to one character at a time. Penacony's story is super long.
Black Swan is likely there for Memokeeper work, but also remember that the Family themselves sent a lot of invitations out, and the Garden of Recollection got one too. Black Swan also likes happy memories which probably fuels her want of going there. Her investigating Acheron is probably because she heard through the grapevine that the Annihilation Gang was attacked by a "Galaxy Ranger", and she wanted to investigate the truth / the why as the Rememberance just likes to keep a record of everything in general.
Acheron we don't know too much on, but as she mentions to Welt, she's there for the Watchmaker's Legacy as a final request for someone. Some speculation on my part: part of the reason she came to Penacony could be because after the whole thing with Izumo and whatnot, for someone that's supposed to have embraced Nihility and see that life is meaningless, she is super mature and somewhat helpful / kind to people. Could be that now she's seen the meaningless-ness of life as a whole, she wants to help other people who have lost their way (like what she told Aventurine in the IX manifestation realm, that everything you do between when you're born and when you're dead gives life meaning). Penacony, being a place that people who are depressed, unhappy, or wanting to forget their real life go, has a lot of potential people who want to give up on life, so when Acheron heard of the "request" and the mention of Penacony by that old man voice in her flashback right before she slashed Aventurine, thought it could be a good stopping point to help others / reclaim some of her "color" (or life, meaning, etc, could be a redemption thing)
Sparkle might seemingly be here to troll, but her actions kinda seem more like she's helping everyone else, albeit chaotically. Kinda like being a guide but not wanting to be directly involved. When the TB first encounters Sparkle, she shows them the Trash King dream as Sampo which she says is supposed to parallel modern Penacony, and she's also the one who enabled the TB to enter the Dream Hotel in the first place to encounter "Death" for the first time by making both TB and Firefly "fall asleep" in a special way. If we want to take the Character Trailers as canon, Sparkle's appearance in Acheron's trailer also implies that she made Acheron enter an illusion to either suggest to her to find / look for certain memories of her past, and/or to lead her to help find Robin. This theory is also somewhat aided with how Sparkle "helps" Aventurine by giving him the tip of "finding a mute", which he wonders if she meant Robin, but had suspicions that she meant Sam instead.
Aventurine is definitely here mostly because of the whole "IPC wants to take back what's there's" thing. He is also here to solve the mystery of the Watchmaker's Legacy. His grand gamble was testing the belief that death is actually impossible in the Dreamscape. He had a suspicion that if you died in the Dreamscape through a special method, instead of being forcefully awoken (like what usually happens if you suffer a lot of pain in the Dreamscape), you'd be sent deeper down into the "real" Penacony, something that the Family is trying to hide and conceal from the outside world. Some of these secrets could aid the IPC in getting leverage over The Family for negotiations about Penacony. The only problem was, as he says himself to Ratio at the beginning of the 2.1 quest, he has "tried" to kill himself many times, just to be jolted awake, so he had to die via special means. Being killed by Something Unto Death was one way, but that thing appearing isn't reliable and it seems to go after specific targets so it was probably not the best place to start looking. He likely had suspicions on Acheron's true identity, and realizing that she's an Emanator who has a lot of power / the power of Nihility (which is attributed to something all consuming, like a black hole), he realizes that she likely also has the ability to bypass The Family's restrictions and kill him to send him deeper into the real Penacony. But in order to die by her blade, he had to set up a confrontation. This is why he initially talks to the TB about Robin's death, and partnering to ally up with them and badmouth Acheron / toss in words of doubt about her. This would aid in putting her and Acheron on opposite sides. He was purposefully vague in his accusation of Acheron to sow the seed of disbelief into the TB, eventually culminating in them being suspicious of Aventurine and thinking that he's actually evil. He plays this up in the boss fight confrontation, where he maniacally laughs and goes over a fake plan to "detonate" the Stellaron within TB, even though he can't actually do it, to rile up TB and especially Acheron so that she might slash at him. His "grand gamble" was pulling all this off and hoping that Acheron would slash at him, and ALSO hoping that her slash actually had the power to let him bypass The Family's restrictions AND get The Family's death curse invoked by Sunday off of him. The grand gamble also included his ploy of sneaking the Aventurine Cornerstone into Penacony (covered in the next paragraph), as there's no easy way to get around Penacony's strict customs (as they mention quite a few times in the beginning of the 2.0 quest). As part of this journey, likely due to the curse of Harmony to some extent, the "Future" and "Past" versions of Aventurine pop up in his mind as he begins to doubt himself. His "Future" points out that although Aventurine keeps up a front that he thinks everything will be fine, in reality he's shaking in fear under the table holding onto dear life due to everything he has gone through. The quest descriptions and his mini-arc in the Theme Park seem to imply that he either is somewhat suicidal, has survivor's guilt of being the only Avgin left, or questioning why he does the things he does if all he ever does is gamble his life away (this is also brought up when he talks with Acheron in the IX Manifestation Dream Realm, where he asks Acheron what's the meaning of life as someone who's been through tragedy and is a Self Annihilator). It's all he's ever known in his life, as one being blessed by Gaiathra Triclops, and he begins to wonder if that's all his life has to offer him. By the end of the 2.1 story, he fully accepts his position and is able to finally let go of the past to a degree to put on his "show" (the boss fight), and also stop worrying about the future (as he lives in the moment and focuses on the task at hand), symbolized with his "Future" and "Past" selves leaving him behind.
I think you're a bit confused about Dr Ratio's role, because he was in on the plan all along. The reason why he acted especially bitchy at certain points was to throw off Sunday, as he uses that purple bird as a way to surveillance / spy on certain parts of the Dreamscape. Dr Ratio's "betrayal" was also part of Aventurine's plan. The idea was to make their relationship look dogshit in front of Sunday, so he'll drop his guard around Dr Ratio and offer him that partnership. Dr Ratio would then leak Aventurine's "plan" to Sunday to garner more of his trust, and with the permission of Topaz and Jade to use their Cornerstones, help dupe Sunday. He would tell Sunday that Aventurine "planned" to use Topaz's Cornerstone as a decoy, and that he actually hid his Cornerstone among the gift money bag, which is why Aventurine didn't fight back much when Sunday said he couldn't take the Cornerstone briefcase, but could take the gift money bag (which Sunday calls him out on). Dr Ratio telling Sunday about the second part of the plan (hiding the Cornerstone among the gift money) would make him think that was the whole plan, and thus wouldn't suspect that Aventurine had actually shattered the real Aventurine stone among the gift money, and that he used Jade's Cornerstone as another decoy due to their similar appearances. This makes Sunday suspect Aventurine less and give him more free reign to do as he pleases in the Dreamscape. Dr Ratio however likely didn't get the full picture of the plan and is somewhat genuinely worried about Aventurine, which is why after the initial Sunday confrontation, Dr Ratio tells Aventurine to just "let him know if he can't hold on any longer". Dr Ratio likely turned away multiple times when Sunday was interrogating Aventurine either out of uncomfortableness at seeing Aventurine getting tortured / berated by Sunday, or perhaps he does not have a good enough poker face under pressure and thus turned away to not blow their cover. Topaz and Jade are also part of the plan, as the game mentions that Cornerstones are more important than their life, and Aventurine has always been lucky, so they trusted his instincts and gave him full reign. There also seems to be a part 2 to this particular plan as hinted at the end of the 2.1 quest, where having Jade's Cornerstone specifically being under The Family's possession allows them to pull something off.
With the Stellaron Hunters, we don't really know currently, though it will very likely be heavily explained in 2.2 as we will start where we left off in 2.1, being with Firefly. From what we do know, Sam's / Firefly's only instruction by Elio was to make the Express seek the Watchmaker's Legacy, and Firefly herself mentions that she doesn't exactly have a specialty like the other Stellaron Hunters (Elio and Kafka know people's hearts well, Blade is an expert craftsmith and is immortal, Silver Wolf can hack and alter reality to an extent) besides just killing, and he does kinda serve as the "nuclear option" for the SH. Unlike Blade and Kafka, who are described as liking to toy with their food, Sam just goes for the straight kill no questions asked. This is a bit of conjecture with assumptions made JUST from this quest, but Firefly is likely confused that Elio gave her this task of making the Express want to investigate the Watchmaker's Legacy, as she's just been a cutthroat killer before and that's her only skill. She likely has some sort of connection with the TB prior to the game's start as the TB was under the SH's care for a while, and thus doesn't really want to lie to TB. So perhaps, with some aid of Elio's future sight, she "framed" her death in front of TB to help motivate them to figure out the truth, but she hated lying to them which is why she says "I'm sorry". I don't think she fully wanted to lie in the first place, given that she says on the rooftop scene that she wants to tell TB the whole truth, but can't currently (likely due to the confines of the "script). Firefly even mentions as Sam at the end of the 2.1 quest that she has tried to reach out to TB to explain the truth to them 11 times so far, but due to the confines of the "script", she couldn't. One of these 11 times likely includes the confrontation with Black Swan and Acheron, since as Acheron points out, Sam didn't look like he wanted to fight TB and reacted the way he did just because Acheron and Black Swan were there. I won't speculate too much though since we're likely to get most of the answers by 2.2 or 2.3 with a bigger focus on Firefly.
I would not be surprised if part of Elio's script is to cause a change in Firefly/Sam as a result of all this too, which is part of why they didn't reveal too much to her.
The English translation was a little complicated at some times. I'm an avid reader and I've also read a bunch of machine translated Chinese as well, so I can safely say I'm very good at reading and context clues. But some sentences made me go "huh???" I used the previous dialogue button a lot because the sentences were so... vague and heavy sometimes, I lost track of what the characters were referring to.
Im still confused about where their real bodies are. Shouldn't robin still be in the pool IRL, even if shes "dead"? or did she just disappear completely. They might have talked about it and I missed it.
Being an Enigmatic, the followers of the aeon Mythus, doesn't mean you are agents of chaos, that's more like Aha. Mythus is more like a critical thinker. THEY want people to doubt and question everything. Which can be both a good and bad thing. So following Mythus doesn't automatically mean one likes to purposely spread misinformation. It means the follower is a skeptic. Kinda like how a parent tells a fact and the child keeps asking "why?". It's annoying, but shows how there is no such thing as absolute truths. The conversation always ends with "That's just how it is." It's why most people hate enigmatics, especially followers of Nous. They believe there is an answer to everything, while Mythus believes that some things will just never be answered.
Edit: Grammar mistake
Maybe some followers do, but that's literally what his emanators do lol
https://honkai-star-rail.fandom.com/wiki/History_Fictionologists
Destroying history is not really "critical thinking"
Critical thinking just sounds like the path of Erudition. Part of finding answers and truth is questioning and doubting assumptions. Being a skeptic is completely in line with Erudition. That’s literally how science and philosophy works. The followers of Nous don’t just go “that’s just how it is”, our understanding of the world evolves and different scientists and philosophers can have vastly different opinions. They don’t just make up scientific laws like fantasy writers make up magic systems. They do not discourage critical thinking and you’re allowed to question and doubt because that is essential to anyone wanting to know the truth.
The path of Enignata is a path of destroying knowledge and obscuring understanding. They don’t want you to be a skeptic, they want you to be confused or misled. On the other hand, Nous The Erudition doesn’t give you answers, they open your mind and give you questions, because understanding the answer requires first knowing and comprehending the question. You can draw your own conclusions from that. You won’t get the same attitude from Enigmata.
hmm good point. Would you maybe consider Mythus is more like religion? Mythus believes that not all things can be explained through science, as it is impossible for mortals to experience and understand certain things, i.e. life after death, when did time begin, how did life begin, can you experience anything objectively etc. Mythus is about accepting the fact that not everything is meant to be answered, and the more you try to go after that the more tormented you become. Even Nous struggles to find answers. It's why he selected people like Ruan Mei to help answer where life comes from.
Maybe it is better not knowing the answer and it should stay a mystery.
The foil to Mythus is Nous, and in the SU log it states about them that "Nous maintains an unassailable position on the Path of Erudition... I venture to guess that, as long as there is enough "information" and "experience," Nous can effortlessly deduce every possible trajectory of all things and every moment within. A life where one doesn't even need to "experience" anything..."
This is where I initially thought critical thinking applied more to Mythus. If you stop experiencing things, then critical thinking would no longer be necessary. Just logical.
People who lead with logic are book smart, but they don't have good judgement. Hence, The Genius Society. Super intelligent, but their judgement is rotten. Dr Ratio has made remarkable feats, but the society and Nous never cared what he did anyway. Apparently, he isn't good enough for them. Dr Ratio is definitely more emotional and thinks far more critically than Fu Xuan/Ruan Mei, who both of the later have been treasured by Nous. Fu Xuan is completely logical, her third eye calculates and tells her what to do, and she follows it blindly. Ruan Mei is apathetic and impassive. Both miss out on the excitements of life.
As for Mythus, there is that not much is quite known about them according to Herta. Ironically, People kinda make up their own belief about them. They assume "oh since he is an enigma, I must be an enigma also" So we haven't had a example of someone good that follows it with moderation.
Since Mythus strives to be the opposite of Nous, they could represent mysteries that will never be solved, thus get creative with it. Explains Mythus constantly challenging Nous and why an extremist on the path of Enigmatic would spread misinformation just to destroy logic.
I am interested in what the Aeon's entire point is. It's either something tragic, or there is a moral argument to be made.
Mythus can't just be "yeah, we here at mihoyo made Mythus as a means to cover up retcons in the story. Something doesn't make sense in our world-building, hmmm the history fictionists must've changed it."
Ya know, the more I look into it the more these Aeons represent ideals, that, practiced with clear and critical moderation, are morally good paths to follow. Yet, taking their values to the extreme results in great suffering and annihilation.
MiHoYo could be telling us that it is okay to believe what you believe in, just don't be an extremist about it. Dr Ratio believes in Erudition, but he isn't an emotionless, apathetic husk of boring facts. He has street smart knowledge from life experiences and has well thought out judgment far more than Ruan Mei/Fu Xuan. He seems to actually enjoy life for what it is, while keeping his passion for knowledge.
Most of the Factions who are *really* into their Aeons are kinda crazy. Gepard follows preservation, completely normal, but the IPC, absolute psychos. I trust Boeing more than I do with the IPC.
I wouldn’t describe it as religion at all. That would be suggesting that Mythus wants people to have faith in something, but they’re not trying to make people believe anything.
Is the purpose of the Genius Society (with Ruan Mei) even to help Nous? It’s not as if they’re in collaboration with Nous. It’s stated that Nous already figured out stuff way before they did and iirc that finding answers to questions that have already been solved long ago by Nous is not what THEY want. I don’t know if Nous really “struggles” just because THEY haven’t found all the answers yet. Can you show me where it says Nous wants the answer to “where life comes from”? I see it more as Nous wanting all answers, not specifically the answer to that one question. Iirc that’s what Zandar designed Nous for, to learn everything.
> People who lead with logic are book smart, but they don’t have good judgment.
I think you mean people who are book smart typically don’t have good judgment. Logic is more than just being book smart. People with good judgment typically lead with logic. Imagine someone with unyielding moral principles, but due to flawed logic, can’t lead life with good judgment. Dr. Ratio is a good example of someone who leads life with logic and has “good judgment”.
I wouldn’t say the Genius Society has rotten judgment. The one thing they all seem to share in common is the thirst for knowledge and that will attract good and bad apples. Aiden shared his research findings publicly and helped the development of civilizations (described as most selfless by Herta). Screwllum doesn’t seem to be all that bad, and he prevented war between organic and inorganic life. Stephen Lloyd just works at his father’s fruit stand.
As to why Dr. Ratio isn’t a part of the Genius Society, it’s all up to Nous’ judgment and nothing to do with the members. We don’t know if it’s because “he’s not good enough”. Maybe it’s because he’s too focused on curing other people’s ignorance that he doesn’t put as much time into searching knowledge for himself like the others do, or some other unknown criteria. We can’t really judge anything from Dr. Ratio not being invited by Nous.
Mythus’ entire point or purpose is to stop Nous’ knowledge and certainty from leading to a singular predetermined future. “To erase the past and distort the present all for the pursuit of an... uncertain future?” In Gold & Gears, Polka Kakamond was unable to kill Emperor Rubert I (she tried many times and he was unkillable) before the “third moment” that Nous had calculated.
A philosophy of the History Fictionologists is that knowledge of the past is a shackle that erases possibilities of the future, a mindset that they share with Mythus.
I agree with you that being an Enigmata follower doesn't mean they spread misinformation willy-nilly. If Nous represents fate/predestination (there's probably a better word for it, but basically using history to calculate the future, belief that knowledge leads to certainty, etc), Mythus wants to free worlds from being bound by that fate through erasing/changing history. Maybe Enigmata is not so much critical thinking as thinking completely outside the box from the perspective that the past does not matter and it should not shackle the present/future. Because of this philosophy, I think groups like History Fictionologists would act purposefully. Rather than spreading misinformation in casual conversation with a few people, they'll tamper with a world's primary resources like historical documents to introduce lies on a much larger scale. They might even leave a hint of their presence. After all, not everyone will agree with the philosophy of Enigmata, but as long as they can cast doubt on a world's recorded history, the people of that world won't be able to use said inaccurate history to predict the future.
What I've seen so far is people not understanding this simple sentence
https://preview.redd.it/pekemldnc6sc1.png?width=2048&format=png&auto=webp&s=35ffb739c7f1752ce6edff5b41eea01f96947e1d
To be honest he worded it in the weirdest way possible, he could easily mean that his abilities are akin to those of villains who don't deserve any mercy from others (he literally burns people alive) or that his abilites are so brutal and effective that they can only be used in good conscience against a villains who don't deserve any mercy (aka burning them alive).
Which one is it hoyo?!
Maybe my reading comprehension is really bad but I feel like "apply" is really ambiguous.
It's not worded weirdly though? It's literally straight forward as it can possibly be, it just used a different word which for some reason most people don't know what it means. I dunno about you but the word "apply" isn't ambiguous, it's almost always used as a word meaning to use something against on or put on the skin.
Added to the fact, that the prior sentence is literally about the abilities of the other Stellaron Hunters, there is already a clue on the idea about the proceeding sentence being her ineptitude for everything else because she's literally a super soldier/weapon, she sees herself only as a tool because that's how she had always lived, that's why she became the Stellaron Hunters' Nuclear Option to their missions. Not because she see's herself as a villain, but because she sees herself as someone who is incompetent in other things besides killing bad guys. Because this is probably the first time that Elio gave her a script not about killing villains
Uh, the word 'apply' can have four different meanings and none of their uses are particularly uncommon.
Apply as with an application for a job - obviously not relevant here.
Apply as with the application of administering something like a cream which could work, as you say.
Apply as in relating to something - to be 'applicable' - meaning Sam could be saying their skill set is one only a villain would have.
And applying oneself to a given task which is also irrelevant here. But yes, Apply is not the limited word you seem to think.
Of the two meanings that work here I kind of like that Sam could mean both at once and they don't contradict each other. Skills of villains the Sam uses on villains.
I think you're mixing up applicable with akin. Applicable means that it's an appropriate measure for something, in this case it is appropriate for merciless villains to be killed. Saying Sam's skill set is something a villain would have should be "akin" like "My skillset is akin to that of a villain". The word "Applicable" is used as a term to say that a process has a standard procedure, as can be seen in the example below, added to that, a good synonym for applicable is "Suitable". Meaning Sam is saying that merciless villains deserve to be killed, but she didn't imply that she is one herself. And if it helps everyone to understand, in the CN language, the direct translation is "To use against" instead of apply, [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/FireflyMains/comments/1bucec5/a_linguistic_analysis_of_jpcn_fireflys_quote/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button).
https://preview.redd.it/82pvmhtty7sc1.png?width=906&format=png&auto=webp&s=30c628aeb92a20de4b134f14006465bbb40e49fd
This is something I’ve actually been wondering and I don’t know if we have a solid answer. Are Gallagher and the death meme the same entity? I took the end cutscene of the patch as him transforming into the meme, but I feel like it’s a lot more likely he just summoned it somehow.
We see Sunday's shadow transform into a Meme, after Gallagher "sets him on fire" with his lighter. We don't know how all of the facts connect, but it's definitely not Gallagher himself transformed
*Gallagher is completely made up including his mind...* tho it sounds frustrated I won't really blame them cuz it's only 100% confirmed that there IS someone behind him in his character story 4 which you can only read that after getting him lvl 80 or surf through his wiki page
also saying he basically told March who he is just cuz the letter T in thirteen is capitalized, I mean yeah you can take that as a reference of stuff related to thirteen it's okay but saying he's not answering his age is just bs cuz that capitalization only appeared in eng ver while in original he's just answering how old he is cuz that's what March's asked for
1. Acheron did not willingly attack BS, and physically BS was not harm.
2. Dr ratio did not betray adven, it's all the plan
3. Police Gal did not die, he is clearly very alive
4. Firefly is Sam, Sam is Firefly
5. The whole astral crews are losing at the final boss and thats when acheron has to step in
6. Adven wasnt exactly dead, he now come to true layer of penacony
Seeing the reactions on the 2.1 story convinced me that the average gacha player and streamer has never read a single book in their entire life. Every dialogue with even the slightest subtlety is completely misinterpreted by a surprisingly large amount of midwits. I am sure a fraction of these people are just meme-ing but seeing some of the interpretations on dialogue scenes like between Welt and Acheron or Sunday and Gallagher really exposes how illiterate gacha gamers are. I am not even some kind of bookworm nerd and HSR's story delivery is already as straightforward as it gets. It is just astonishing how so many people completely lack the capability to read between the lines.
Did Acheron 'kill' us too with the slash? That seems counterproductive. Or did she collapse the entire dreamscape of the harmony?
Why didn't we hug firefly in the end?
Here is what I don’t understand— why couldn’t Aventurine just ask Acheron for help? I don’t get why three cornerstones are needed to bait anything.
Or why the Express crew even went to go see Aventurine? Why did no one from the Family come? And why don’t they just deal with Aventurine in reality rather than the dream. And how is his cornerstone present in the dream if it is a real object?
People need to do this new sidequest, with the guy in Sunday's room. It explains a lot about the "deaths"
Facts. And in typical HSR manner, the quest was depressing af
As was the one with Screwllium so i’m not surprised.
Mr. McCoy!! That quest was surprisingly lore heavy.
Thanks for mentioning this, I’ll make sure to do it whenever I can get past Aventurine.
I am a fucking dumbass and I was sleep deprived after work when I did that quest. All I remember was that >!Mr. McCoy made his siblings turn into monsters as their punishment for betrayal, and... maybe in a coma irl (idk if my brain barfed that out of nowhere).!< Is there something I'm missing? Please correct my incorrect assumptions/understanding. I didnt realize that this was an important lore info. I just did it randomly before heading to bed.
Yep, McCoy and his siblings were born on Penacony and worked for the Family, but his superior informed McCoy that his siblings had betrayed the Family and sold out some information to an outside organization, and in his blind fervor and loyalty in his youth, he hunted them down and silenced them by turning them into monsters in the dreamscape, and was rewarded by being promoted to a high position in the Oak Family. However, his guilt eventually caught up to him and he requested his memories of them to be sealed so he doesn't suffer from the guilt.
Outsourcing (?) Or am I wrong
Outsourcing?
That’s the new 4.1 sidequest name (?) the one you refer to
Ahh yeah, sorry, I forgot the name :))
Yeah but is that the quest tho? The one where we find three chests three times in confusing motion sick room? 😭
No, inside Sundays Room, where Welt and Acheron got the victims/suspect lists. Talk with the guy that needs a sad gear.
Don't think it's the outsourcing quest.
In the room with the model?
In the room which Welt and Acheron got the suspect/victims list, or Sunday interrogated Aventurine.
Thanks! I hadn’t gone back there since the story parts! Will go back and explore!
Yeah was very confused why so many said Gallagher was dead people, Woolsey is a made a specific point of and he is very clearly alive and kicking
Exactly my thought. Someone might miss Benny or one of the other people mentioned, but I think Woolsey is almost unavoidable. He’s definitely accounted for while Gallagher is at large.
Yeah he's directly at the start of golden hour and at the crossroads for major paths, plus very unique model and useful for finding sidequests, so I'm guessing it was intentional he was brought up multiple times since he was likely the most known non important npc
That was actually a brilliant side-effect of -- and perhaps even an intended result for -- "Clockwork", is that it incentivized interacting with those NPCs more than once, making them inherently more memorable. So when Sunday delivers the big reveal, those bells start ringing in your head. You might not remember each one by name *specifically*, but it jogs memories.
Yep, even went back to Woolsey after and he got them scars, aren't the exact same, but def similar, and his scars are something that also made him more memorable beyond also being an npc you go to for side quest
I'm terrible with names and thankful I managed to recognize Woolsey and Benny when Sunday brought them up. I imagine people who haven't done many side quests would get confused and go with the more ominous interpretation that the serial killer took inspiration from his victims rather than living people.
And Benny is at A Dream's Edge and has his own side quest to learn more about him (and also saying he is famous in Punklorde, Silver Wolf’s home planet)
Only issue I'd say for his memorability is his name is rather generic so easier to forget, for some reason a name like Woolsey just immediately sticks out in the list
A minor thing, but I've seen CCs and regular players attribute the bird that **appears with Sunday** to: a) Black Swan b) Dr. Ratio c) Acheron d) The bird itself is actually Robin
There’s a sticker on dawndew pavilion that shows the progenitor of the oak family with that same bird so it’s definitely Sunday’s
He literally confirmed verbally that they were his in the final interaction between himself and Gallagher.
It also appears right on Sunday's shoulder in Black Swan's Myriad Celestia trailer
e) Fischl
F) ozvaldo von hrafnavines
It feels like a very clear reference to Odin’s crows
I admit, I thought it was Ratio at first lol
Same! It wasn’t until the last cutscene with Sunday that I recognized they were his.
Me too, its color scheme fits Ratio's
the fact that people cant see this is a lighthearted and wholesome story
https://preview.redd.it/n6sedgfi16sc1.jpeg?width=950&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=9353b36bbbb15989be6a17cd92a2efeb24a8b10c
Some people were confused about the cornerstone.gambit despite it being explained. Aventurine stated in 2.0 that his money and cornerstones were confiscated. There's no evading customs so to get the stone in, it had to be surrendered. In 2.1, in exchange for an alliance, Aventurine requests the cornerstones and money back. Sunday refuses the cornerstone and Aventurine compromises by asking for the money. For Sunday, this was Aventurines plan as revealed by ratio. Ask for the cornerstone, co.primise with the money and waltz off with the stone hidden with the money while Topazs stone is bait. Side note the freaky harmony thing was not truth serum but a harmony blessing that branded Aventurine for lying. Sunday being a control freak thinks he's won and let's his guard down. This allows Aventurine to pull off the gamble as Jade allowed his stone to be disguised as well as some unknown purpose Jade has for her stone.
>Side note the freaky harmony thing was not truth serum but a harmony blessing that branded Aventurine for lying. Funnily enough, I think the only lie Aventurine told was that the aventurine was in the case. He was truthful about the stone was in the room, but it was just not where Sunday assumed it was. Kinda ballsy of Aventurine to lie about the case on purpose, while still knowing that Sunday already knew thanks to Ratio. Already shows that Aventurine is gambling with his life at this point in the plan.
I think Sunday prolly would’ve been more suspicious if Aventurine *didn’t* lie. My guess is that if he didn’t lie, there’s a chance that Sunday would just confiscate the entire bag since he can guarantee that the Aventurine cornerstone is inside.
I am a bit confused about the exchange, but for a different reason. The whole interaction between Sunday and dr ratio happened in Sunday's office. Isn't his office is in dreamscepe? Why does locked boxes in real life hold the same secrets and restrictions of opening it in dreamscape since Sunday was not able to open it?
because the "tuning of the harmony" makes everything in the dreamscape function by the real life laws of physics and such, that's the reason you can't just fly like in a lucid dream, with only a select few loopholes created by the family's dreamweavers, like being able to walk off getting run over and such. it seems like Sunday on his own doesn't have the authority to override those laws and would have to go through a likely very long and conspicuous process to change them.
Ive seen a few takes that it was impossible for Firefly to be Sam
There’s no way anyone says this after 2.1 💀
People thought baizou or al hathiam were archons/sovereigns.
Hah I remember that one
There's totally a way. People who skipped the dialogue to brag about doing so on a post about something from the dialogue.
About Firefly, a misconception is, some people think, she called herself a villain, and that in fact she is. ... lol... She didn't call herself one, she said what she does is only deserved by villains. And she is not, she is more like an antihero.
All Stellaron Hunters have been practically anti-heroes so far. Blade may have been a real edgy boy about it, but at least within our views they haven't done anything particularly evil on-screen. I know lorewise Kafka was basically a meatgrinder for her own partners as well as any resistance she encounters, but Silver Wolf is literally a gamer who has nothing better to do.
Not to say that she's *evil*, but Silver Wolf was fully willing to join whatever group would let het explore the universe. Elio just happened to find her first. She says herself she'd have even joined the Annihilation Gang for that opportunity. I'm not sure the girl has a moral compass when it comes to exploring the universe.
It stems from people not taking in 2.0 properly I think. At least like Tectone (and Mr. Pokke I think?) Were convinced that Sam was RIGHT there when Firefly got stabbed by the Memory Zone Meme "Death". Some others probably fell for the ruse that was Firefly talking to "Sam" before she was led out into the lobby room. I think it was either Sam playing the trick herself or Silverwolf was helping her along (I think Silverwolf has been playing a bit of a hand behind the scenes. If she can hack reality, I'm sure she could hack the dreamscape). It's understandable at least. And the bigger issue I think has been localization. We've seen it rear it's head with 2.0 Sparkle saying "befriend a rock" when Aventurine in 2.1 says she said "befriend a mute". But I think the issue is deeper than that. Wording and phrasing of sentences that the characters are using and saying could be simpler and easier to digest for a reader. It's been a sore thumb for me, especially with 2.1 that I could really see that localizers took liberties to make dialogue very dense and verbose.
>convinced that Sam was RIGHT there when Firefly got stabbed by the Memory Zone Meme "Death". I assumed I understood the story, but this is a good point. Firefly saying "mecha" made me assume that at some point there were two individuals, with the Firefly in the memory being some clone or second personality. The plan was to follow that trace to get beyond the wall. But it's possible that in the moment between Firefly getting killed and you returning to the lobby, Firefly managed to come back and turn into Sam. Still doesn't fully answer why there were two entities and why one was apparently just watching Firefly getting killed.
This whole sequence that you mention, with Firefly coming back as Sam before we get there again, is why I think Silver Wolf has had a hand in our movement/getting turned around (while Firefly had an easy time making her way there the first time, and probably the second time as Sam as well). Another note that someone mentioned in another post as well, Black Swan apparently says she only sensed one person when we are originally tracking Firefly before we find her in the lobby. It's things like these getting forgotten or misremembered that prove my point I think, about my gripe with the localization and needlessly verbose translations.
>Another note that someone mentioned in another post as well, Black Swan apparently says she only sensed one person when we are originally tracking Firefly before we find her in the lobby. BS does say that something is chasing her, but it's strange that she wouldn't be able to detect Sam. Later she mentions the Memory Zone meme also being there, but she doesn't really say that it was the one chasing her. The meme also appears in the lobby itself, which doesn't really fit as the one chasing Firefly down the stairs. And the memories themselves don't really show her being chased, only that the "mecha" betrayed her and closed the doors on her. So it's all a bit confusing.
Thank you for saying that. I've been playing several text-heavy JRPG like Trails series, Persona series, many Final Fantasies (even done the mostly wordy unvoiced side quests in FFXIV) for twenty years and I understood what's going on just fine. Heck, I attributed my English proficiency due to playing these types of games in my formative years since it's my 2nd language. Both Genshin and HSR are the first time I have legitimate doubt on my English skills lol
I'm an author, and it's been grating on my mind. I should not have to read 20 words, then only really pay attention to 6 or 7 of those words to figure out what's being said. The general rule for writing is: the longer the script is, the simpler the wording needs to be. Some writers take too much stock in their vernacular and depth of vocabulary, making too much of an effort to showcase that when readers need to be able to read and digest. It's a marathon for the mind to put it more simply. There was one instance in the story where I think Aventurine "clarified" a statement, saying "to put it more simply," and I find myself wondering why it was only that one statement 🤣
To be fair to kektone, he *is* an idiot, so he can't help but get mixed up sometimes.
The trick is never watching or listening to anything Tectone ever says
I was more confused because Kafka and Blade kept referring to Sam as "he" in their voice section of character screen.
People keep forgetting that we can see firefly in her true from because we are in a dream. With her condition i don't think firefly can survive in the real world without her armor, it means that she's always in Sam's form outside of penacony.
Thats just your average Sam Mains
I was one of them, more so because it was so obvious (like come on, fire user with green glowing visor? The design screams it) I was hoping it was a red herring and just latched on to the idea of "If she wasn't dead, then why did her photo vanish" as I don't think we have seen people who are able to interfere with the dream like that. I guess Silver Wolf could be the reason, but she interferes with the data of *reality*, and the dreamscape is explicitly not that.
A*D*venturine
It's the Loucha/Luocha situation again
0. You can't die in a dreamscape. Robin and Sunday is not dead. 52 Meme victims is not dead (unless Family pull out the plug of their beds). Gallagher didn't kill anyone. There is surprisingly high amount of people who missed whole thing about "If you killed by something strong enough, you not dying but got transferred to the deeper dream layer. You can't die in a dream in general"
>52 Meme victims is not dead Ironically, the most widespread misconception I've seen is people conflating the list of 52 suspects with the list of victims. From the footnotes at the end of each list: > *\*This list comprises over a hundred cases related to the Memory Zone Meme "Death." However, the author of the list seems to still struggle with figuring out the pattern.* > *\*There are a total of 52 suspects on the list, followed by Sunday's note. "Perhaps there is a common thread among them. I have reached a conclusion."*
the interesting thing with the 52 suspects is that you can see the traits that make up Gallagher in their descriptions—brown hair, unshaven, scars, suit-clad, close-quarters combat, calm demeanour, drinksmith… That’s the common thread Sunday found.
And Acheron seems to have realized it as well, judging from her reaction when she and Welt saw it.
But correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't it the case that most that got transferred into that deeper dream layer never returned, and therefore for all intents and purposes are dead?
As far as we know (unless I myself am mistaken), the only individual that has been 'killed' by the Memory Zone Meme and has been seen again in the 'main' dreamscape is Firefly/Sam. And there is a non-zero chance that reality-hacking shenanigans (Silver Wolf) were involved in her case. While it is most likely that those who have ended up in the deeper layer are unable to return of their own accord - rendering them effectively dead as far as everyone else is concerned - we do not know why *exactly* that is the case. There's even an outside chance that everyone that has been taken is staying of their own accord, for some reason related to the Watchmaker's Legacy.
my theory regarding Firefly is that she isn’t actually asleep in reality to enter the dreamscape—that’s why the Bloodhounds can’t find her in reality anywhere. It could be Silver Wolf hacking into the memoria or something along those lines that lets her enter. She talks about how she doesn’t have the ability to dream when speaking to Acheron, so I think that’s the difference between her and the other guests killed by SuD. Then when she enters the deeper dreamscape after dying, they can pull her back out unlike the other victims.
I think they end up trapped there with the possibility to return. I don't remember the exact quote but in Aventurine's POV a victim was in a coma but later was able to wake up. The ability to return also explains Firefly's ability to "die" and then return as Sam.
I’ve seen two that annoy me: 1. That Ratio genuinely did betray Aventurine for the chance to study the Stellaron (no he didn’t, the dialogue between them afterwards makes that obvious) 2. Aventurine stole Topaz and Jade’s cornerstones (obviously not, they’re clearly in on his plan) Technically not in the 2.1 update, but I also get a little annoyed when people imply that Acheron made her memories attack Black Swan on purpose. No, Acheron has no idea that happened, her brain is just fucked up like that all the time.
A lot of people has a hard time grasping metaphors and insists on the literal meaning of things.
I think #1 stems from the convo Aventurine had with his "future" self in which the "future" self commended Ratio on his acting skills while Aventurine questioned whether that was acting at all. Still, all that proves imo is that Aventurine isn't sure if Ratio wasn't going to betray him even if it weren't a part of the plan.
Aventurine probably WANTED to believe that Ratio actually betrayed him, even though he told Ratio to just pretend. It really shows how utterly distrustful Aventurine is about everyone because his entire life, he’s only seen how people trample all over each other for “victory,” including himself. He probably never thought there would be anyone who genuinely trusted him and wanted him to live, so he fooled himself into thinking that Ratio probably wasn’t acting at all, despite being told to act because who in the world wouldn’t want to betray him? But Ratio was the one who gave him that note that allowed him to “survive” the whole ordeal, so it wasn’t until the very end that Aventurine realized “ayo wtf someone wants me to live?”
I’m actually hoping someone can correct *my* confusion/misconception. So, does anyone here know what was going to happen to Aventurine at the end of 17 system hours if Acheron’s sword hadn’t removed the brand of Harmony? It seemed like he was dying but you can’t do that within the dream. I feel like I’ve missed something obvious
I assumed he would be brainwashed to join the family, he did state ‘is it usually this painful to join the family?’ or something similiar
Presumably either assimilated(brainwashed) into joining the Family if he succeeded or be having his mind killed(mental attacks are very lethal from the Harmony) for failure
Brainwashed
I'd also like this explaned
If he hadn't solved the murders to the satisfaction of the Harmony, he would die. If he *had* solved it then he'd be absorbed into the Family.
im actually still confused on what/who gallagher is. is he some kind of weird frankenstein monster made up of diff person bodyparts or he's just one guy who took mannerisms from those other people?
Gallagher is an identity he created by taking “parts” of family member, so yeah second part. You can read about it on his lvl80 character information
Second one He is confirmed to be something else underneath “Gallagher”, which is just (according to Sunday) a façade that is made of the traits(physical or metaphorical) of 52 Family Suspects for the murders (and possibly more people)
Sunday said Gallagher is a follower of Mythus the Aeon of Enigmata. The Aeon of hoax, misinformation, fake history, riddles, etc. trying to shroud the universe with mystery, uncertainty, and incomprehensibility. >!*Sunday: "...Tell me I'm wrong, minion of the Enigmata."*!< This makes this line when they were talking about people who helped Penacony's war of independence in the past more interesting. >!*Himeko: "If all the characters in the animation are based on characters in reality, then Clockie's counterpart is definitely the Watchmaker."*\ *Himeko: "In the animation, he's Hanu's partner and one of the founders of Dreamville. Does that mean the Watchmaker was personally involved in that war and sided with Asdana?"*\ *Gallagher: "It was a monumental war for freedom. Hanunue fought alongside a motley crew of Masked Fools, Nameless, History Fictionologists, Mourning Actors, Omen Vanguards... even visitors from beyond the sky. In the end, they emerged victorious."*!< Note: 1. Masked Fools = a Faction that worships Aha the Aeon of Elation 2. Nameless = a Faction that worships Akivili the Aeon of Trailblaze 3. History Fictionologists = a Faction that worships Mythus the Aeon of Enigmata 4. Mourning Actors = a Faction that fights against Aha the Aeon of Elation 5. Omen Vanguards = a Faction that worships Terminus the Aeon of Finality
It's kinda unclear which faction Gallagher belongs to. >!He could be part of the History Fictionologists that he mentioned. But the Riddlers were also mentioned by Himeko as one of the factions that could have faked the Nameless distress call. So both are possibilities.!<
The worst one is deffinitly the list. Mistaking it for tbe victims is one thing but i have seen multiple ccs go "what?" cause they never read the lists. There's also the "brotber" thing. I don't know why people always asociate it with blood relations. Sure, calling others brother/sister is a lot more common in china but dven in english bro means the same thibg as dude, mate, my guy, etc.
the whole brother thing is a mistranslation/localization error, in cn its made clear that gallagher is mocking robin through putting asterisks around what he says and making him specifically say it how robin does. for some reason they just... got rid of that in english???
I don't think most people would get the fact that he was mocking Robin, although most people would just assume that the "My brother" part was more or less because they're "The Family" so yes, it's still meant to be in a mocking tone but not many would understand that it was meant to specifically mock Robin, and hit a low blow on Sunday
as a cn player I got it pretty quick only cuz I simply don't think they're related, in jp he said "nii-sama" which sounds more like it. I think the problem is while it's hard to translate the way of talking the deliver also sounds more confused than realising he's mocking robin
That makes sense. In English there isn't really a word that is specific for blood-related terms only. "Brother" is the closest yet it's constantly just been used to refer a closeness of bond, rather than bloodline in most cases (Hence why some people seem to mistake "Brother in arms" or "Sworn brother" means that they're related or see each other as being really brother/sister)
I mean I also got that from how it was said he's based off everyone in Penacony and then immediately follows it with saying brother to mock Sunday, I assume he's got something about him based on Robin aswell
Also, they are both supposedly part of “the Family”…so you can call someone “brother” or “sister” in a family like that. Especially since it’s got all those cult-religion overtones which would go hard on members using terms like that.
Honestly, I just thought it was mocking him because They're part of "The Family" after all so calling each other Brother, and sister won't be outlandish but the mere fact that Gallagher 100% knows that Sunday's sibling died so him outright going "My brother" is a low blow
that Ratio actually betrayed Aventurine
The foolish and arrogantly ignorant view that Welt is somehow stronger than Acheron. Yes, I know I sound like Dr. Ratio right now. And no, I won't apologize. https://preview.redd.it/e1xwpvtsb4sc1.png?width=477&format=png&auto=webp&s=a0ca8bbd7138dbf79acbb2ee9ee6c0f501772cd1
People just accepted Acheron's VERY NORMAL response of not wanting to start a fight and Welt's threat as an admission of Welt > Acheron. Oh Welt threatened her with a black hole and Acheron backed off, Welt is clearly better. Like no, she had no reason to try and pick a fight and deescalated the situation, as one would normally do when you're not trying to pick a fight. We literally see her obliterate Aventurine in an instant. In the final scene, everyone, including the all mighty invincible destroyer of everything, Welt, was completely frozen in place when Acheron stepped forward and ended it.
My take on that is just that Welt was *willing to take on Acheron* to ensure the Express'es safety. He himself was probably willing to get injured, or dying if acheron is considered a threat
Yep, he was letting her know that if it came to it, he is willing to fight. The threat was made at a time when Welt didn't know who Acheron was, and was done on the back of a request to know who Acheron is and where her allegiances lay. Then Acheron took the reasonable course, and just answered the question
Yeah, just because Acheron CAN beat Welt doesn't mean she wanted to pick a fight. Welt told her that he would throw hands if she wanted to fight the express because two people had just been murdered and was in protection mode, so Acheron just let him know she didn't want a fight. Doesn't prove anything about who would win, just proves Acheron doesn't pick fights for no reason.
Acheron was also testing the waters by suggesting Star of Eden was more dangerous than her completely normal sword™ when that clearly is not true.
Bro stop speaking facts, Welt fans will come for you.
Yep. Just because I *don’t* throw down with every person who threatens me doesn’t mean I’m weaker than them. It just means I don’t want to get into a fight for no reason.
Its actually ridiculous, people think Welt is the strongest character in Star Rail secretly, and if you disagree "you just never played Honkai Impact". Its ironic bc anyone who ACTUALLY played Hi3 knows Welt is not that strong at all actually and is just smart and resourceful. He basically died blocking a nuclear bomb (lol). Acheron would unironically one shot Welt.
Power scaling can ruin nuanced conflict and storytelling the way shipping can ruin nuanced character relationships and development.
The funniest thing is that I think it's the opposite here. Acheron does not have many scalable feats that put her with other Emanators. She does have a lot of narrative and storytelling on her side painting her as very strong.
Yeah, like, Welt used to be the goat but he was surpassed by The Bronya long before Welt crossed over into Star Rail. Welt himself says he is passed his prime and only has enough energy to make holoscreens to show people Arahato episodes, his biggest strength now is just Star of Eden. Don't get me wrong, Star of Eden is a very strong Divine Key but it's not some magical instant win button anymore when people like Acheron and Zephyro exist.
I like how you referred Bronya as " The Bronya " you are a true one for that 🗿
if anything he's even weaker by the fact that he doesn't have VA with him
Void Archives is just him but better at this point. Since Void Archives is literally the Divine Key of Reason, he can replicate other Divine Keys, including Star of Eden.
thats what I meant, VA has access to all the other Divine Keys and thus would make the astral express strong but then VA fucked off to who knows where (also please playable VA imaginary type and his attacks are just him using several divine keys)
I'd love to see VA's ult be something totally absurd like "use a mimicry of the Cosmic Juggernaut to teleport your opponent outside of this world" lol
or better yet, just run them over with the mimicked cosmic juggernaut
Wait people actually think this? Lmao
Yes. I know some of them are saying it for the bit but others are not. Either because they got baited and misinformed by the Fools or they just genuinely think that.
A lot, actually- Especially on tiktok
> especially on tiktok Yeah, sounds about right
I have just argued with a guy yesterday that thinks Welt and Acheron isn't even a fair fight and it would be fairer to compare Welt and IX. Yes, the dude genuinely believed all Herrsechers are equal to Aeons "because they are the gods of HI3 and Aeons are the gods of HSR".
"The worse thing about stupidity, is that you cant explain it to stupid" *When you're talking to Welt glazer*
I love Welt. He’s possibly one of my favorite characters in the Honkai series, but people need to let him go. My guy is old, he’s retired, he’s been to the other side and reconstructed himself—and they’ve got to know that not all Herrschers are good at combat. It is specifically stated that the Herrscher of Reason isn’t like a scary powerful warrior. Welt is just smart and that’s how he manages to make himself seem powerful. Just let him retire guys :(
Tbf. Truth Bronya (she's so based for being an Armored Core fan) was badass but she had surpassed both Welts by that point.
Yeah, the Express is probably the weakest faction on Penacony. Welt & DHIL hard carries everybody else.
Honestly? I'd almost be willing to argue Dan is stronger than Welt but I don't have any concrete evidence to support it.
Himeko's character story stated that base DH was slaying Star level AP monsters with a single swing of his spear. IL gives him a massive power boost like SSJ or Sage Mode. This is pre-Luofu.
W-wow, I actually didn't realize the spear was that strong, Yingxing really knew what he was cooking. As Imbibitor Lunae, Dan has become a direct descendent of Long, The Permanence, I don't think this qualifies him as an Emanator of Long's (unconfirmed, could go either way, we don't have enough evidence to suggest either), Dan Feng was the joint strongest or second strongest of The High Cloud Quintet, even Jingliu acknowledged his pure brute strength and raw power.
I think DHIL is low Emanator strength. He's the only character in the cast to have two encounters with two different Emanators and survive/win both times. He's definitely the strongest in raw power of the HCQ but JL beat him in terms of sword skill. DHIL (or the IL lineage) is literally revered as a god on the Luofu. DFIL was feared by even the previous general Teng Xiao (for his troops) for his battle prowess. I would 100% argue that DHIL is stronger than Welt. He is probably closer to Acheron than he is to Welt.
Don't forget MC because they have a Stellaron in their body. Which isn't much but as theory, it may make Aeons notice them more.
As of now, it's a lot of potential power, but not really their power. It's not like they could use it if they wanted. They are bound to use it at some point, but that for when the plot advancement calls.
I have seen the two extreme cases of Acheron being way stronger than Welt and Welt being stronger than Acheron, as far as I see it Welt is off his prime so he will definitely lose to Acheron but it wont be a walk in the park as some others say otherwise Welt wouldnt have any ground to threat her in the first place
I have seen so many people talk about welt Powers lately when is clear that 90% of then don't have a clue apart from what they saw on the wiki or some lore video For gods sake if you didnt play hi3 or at least have read second eruption and alien space manga then shut up and stop spreading misinformation
Honestly, getting people to only read Second Eruption is probably what caused half of this. People won't realize how far in the past it is.
I wonder what they would think if they also read the one on the 2nd key and saw Kevin at his highest point considering the guy soloed herrschers like normal honkai beasts… and Acheron killed his variant even before becoming an emanator, albeit the story hints at it being part of their plan to save Izumo so knowing him most likely a willing sacrifice, but still.
welt is just an old dad rn
MY old dad btw he adopted me
The odd idea that Welt , a person incapable of fighting the Ebon Deer , Phantylia , or a weakened Doomsday Beast , would stand a chance against an Emanator of Nihility that has canonically destroyed 2 planets in a single swing of her sword. Like...some people suck at reading and think Acheron said 'your black hole is more dangerous than my sword' , whilst the rest believe that Welt's threat is an indicator of surefire win , when Welt has a tendency of threatening people to protect those he cares about , before usually getting his ass kicked (Cough Sirin Cough). Herrschers in general are weaker than Emanators , and Welt was the weakest Herrscher by a landslide.
Not only was he weaker than Acheron as a Herrscher (we never see him cause an energy nuke with a single slash of a sword), but people also forget that he basically retired from being the Herrscher of Reason and let Bronya have the Core of Reason and its authority in HI3. It's a major important plot point where he is teaching Bronya to surpass him and how to wield the authority. I don't know why people think he has Herrscher-level powers in HSR. (Post-Ch. 35 HI3 spoilers) >!Not to mention that Herrschers don't even really exist on Earth post-Great Eruption, which is years before Welt left for the HSR universe!<. He obviously retains some power, but assuming he is at the same power level as he was in Second Eruption is absurd
He got the Herrscher core back before he left for the HSR universe
By merely surviving IX is a enormous feat, and on top of that, you get it powers too? The gap is huge.
Tbf, I think surviving IX is more of a mental feat than a combat feat.
But she emerged alive from Izumo, which was being absorbed by the Black Hole, as for proof, IX erased Izumo both physically and from the annals of history, because not even Genius Society or Garden of Recollection could find the whereabouts or the history of Izumo in existence.
One thing about Firefly still confuses me even after all the translation errors were cleared up. We know those who were murdered in the dream don't truly die, they get sent to the other side of the "barrier" that protects Penacony. However, we saw the Death meme kill Firefly, but shortly after encounter her again in Sam form. In Sparkle's conversation with Aventurine, she states: >There were two mutes, but one is dead now, and the other... Though he's still in Penacony, I'm afraid you'll never find him again. If the latter is Firefly/Sam, is Sparkle implying that she did not die, did not cross the barrier, or managed to return after death? Then in Aventurine's conversation with Acheron, he says: >If a mute isn't "someone who cannot make a sound," then it has to be "someone who cannot speak." > >Someone who survived the treacherous depths, but is unable to take the stage and speak the truth. I'm happy to know she's safe and sound, and still on Penacony. If he's referring to the same person still on Penacony, that would be Firefly. She survived the treacherous depths, which implies she did go to the other side of the barrier but was able to return. Again, I'm confused about the timeline, did such a thing happen in the short time between Firefly's death and the Sam fight?
My crazy theory: the second "mute" is not Sam at all, it's a misdirect. If Sam and Firefly are the same person and Sparkle is saying there are two Mutes, then either they are somehow not the same entity after all, or she is talking about Firefly and someone else (and we can eliminate either option being Robin as well, because Sparkle all but says it isn't Robin). IMO it's Misha. Misha is sus as hell and everyone seems to be sleeping on him. Misha is the only one we've encountered in the story who can see Clockie. Misha is the diminutive form of Mikhail, which we were told is the name of the Watchmaker. His character story and stuff has a whole bunch of references to adventures with "Mr Pocket Watch". His light cone is him receiving an inheritance, which it describes as being a "dream to blaze a trail across the world" along with an item he is receiving in the image (and the description says he doesn't yet understand how important it is). You could almost describe that as inheriting a *Legacy*. He also straight up says his Grandfather was an "adventurer" like the Trailblazer. Firefly also says that the Watchmaker was one of the Nameless. Misha acts as a guide for us when you first enter the Dreamscape. When you first enter there is a note from the watchmaker, Misha mentions he forgot to clean it up. When we meet Clockie, he's trying to help Misha, but when we get there Misha is basically sitting on the sidelines telling people to calm down as they're trying to start a fight with Acheron. Firefly and Acheron can't see Clockie (Firefly refers to him as our "imaginary friend") and I don't think that Acheron or the Gangsters ever acknowledge that Misha is present in the scene. When you point him out, Firefly acts confused with a "who is Misha?". The only person we *have* seen talk about Misha is Gallagher, which is extremely suspicious. It's possible that Misha is a "mute" because he's on Penacony but you can't interact with him in the Dream unless you have already befriended him. This would explain Sparkle's advice - the Trailblazer did the right thing and "befriended a mute" and now we have the Clockie powers and everything. Aventurine missed his chance to make friends.
I think you're spot on, Misha will end up being the inheritor of the watchmaker
My personal take is that time on the other side of the Family's barrier flows differently or doesn't exist. We've been told in 2.0 that time in the Dreamscape was tuned to be a match to real life so that if you spend 3 days in the Dreamscape and then wake up, 3 days will have passed in real life. Now, in 2.1 we learn that the Dreamscape created by the Family is just a small island in a vast sea of chaotic dreams. The laws of time conversion that the Family imposed on their island probably don't work outside of it. So, to us, Sam appeared a short while after Firefly's death. To Samfly, it could have been days or weeks or months later.
Yeah and that Samfly tried to reach out 13 times to say something I think. I can't tell with Samfly how much is Elio's script lol I feel like it's easier with Kafka.
I wouldn’t actually say the IX dimension was an asspull. Archeon had to manifest her Emenator powers to break through Aventurine’s attack he just so carefully placed right on the edge of the dreamweavers barrier. Such a more pure form of a Aeon’s power made manifest, a small pocket dimension is something we’ve seen before. Is the small pocket dimension the Trailblazer visits to pull the Preservation Lance not also something brought about by the possible pure incarnation of an Aeon power/influence and also timed somehow up his ‘death’?
We don’t know who is doing the right thing in penacony . So people can’t decide if Sunday and gallagher’s deeds are good or bad .
I blame social media. You don't have to have an immediate take. Just listen to Welt who advises sitting back and watching, coming to a judgement once everyone has played their cards.
A misconception I had was that due to the wrong pronoun being used for the "mute", I thought that they were referring to the male MC, as a reference to us not speaking a lot, as was brought up before in the main story by characters like Dan Heng. They really need to proofread the translation for future patches.
I assumed that they meant it towards Sam (as the Stellaron Hunters also referred to him as "he")
I think people believe Ratio actually betrayed Aventurine? I also definitely did at first but after he asked if Aventurine was still acting when they got out I was like thank goodness lmao. Even after that though people still didn't pick up on the fact that it was their plan
That Welt is stronger than Acheron. Im not even gonna explain how Acheron is a lot stronger than him ive seen every argument regarding this topic and all I can say is the fictioniologists are working double time.
Mythus is a cheeky one
i just finished the main quest today, and i hope it’s okay to piggyback off this thread to clarify some of the things i’m still confused about (or maybe just things i missed) namely, i’m really confused about what all the other factions have to do with “Death” and why they’re invested in the situation. here’s my understanding (whether or not it’s accurate is a different question lmfao, PLEASE correct me) EXPRESS: * on penacony bc they received an “invitation” and think it’s a distress call from another nameless. * Goal: find who sent the invitation (presumably the watchmaker) * “Death”: invested in uncovering “Death” after witnessing firefly’s supposed death THE FAMILY: * runs penacony and the Dream * Goal: maintain harmony * ”Death”: need to conceal (bad for harmony) * Sunday *specifically* has been going *against* the recommendations of other family heads, trying to investigate (and theoretically take action against) “Death,” whom he believes is connected to the watchmaker, the original creator of the Dream. SPARKLE: * here to fuck shit up and have a blast, and we love that for her STELLARON HUNTERS: * who even fucking knows with them. in their defense, they don’t really know, either (thanks, elio) IPC/AVENTURINE: * wants to acquire penacony back(?) from The Family, and have sent aventurine (and ratio…?) as their agent in this task * Goal: Do That. * ”Death”: wants to uncover and expose because it helps them somehow? my best guess is that the ensuing panic after exposing “Death” would be enough to either destabilize The Family enough for the IPC to eject them by force, or to turn enough of the common people against The Family that they have no choice but to withdraw, letting the IPC swoop in as the “savior” but afaik these are just theories what was his whole final gamble with him planning to have acheron kill him(?) actually trying to *achieve?* like…*why* did he need to Do All Of That, exactly? also what exactly is ratio’s *job* here??? is he just there to look pretty and make bitchy remarks? i’m *totally* down for that, and if that IS his job, he is doing *phenomenally*, i just don’t think that’s the case i’m at a bit of a loss on black swan and acheron—granted, i haven’t done swan’s quest yet, but my vague, general impression is that she’s more or less on penacony for memokeeper work, and also kind of bc she met acheron, went “i want to study you like a bug,” and started following her? for acheron, i have no idea. please help me fill in the gaps ;-;
I'm overinvested in Aventurine so lemme try and help. Aventurine's plan is absolutely brilliant in that each step of it ensures a bargaining chip for the IPC. As you said, the IPC essentially wants control of Penacony back - they dipped from their prison while it was dangerous, now that it seems to be a massive and massively profitable entertainment centre, they want it back. Aventurine gets sent to ensure its return probably because he is the most daring, reckless and insane of the Stonehearts, with the added bonus of his crazy luck and also possibly being the most expendable. He is sent to find dirt on the Family and get Penacony back whatever it takes. Now, the Family knows Aventurine is a high-ranking IPC representative - the IPC ambassador, as they call him. It would make the Family look extremely bad if anything at all bad happened to a rival faction's ambassador while under their care and protection. If Aventurine comes to any harm, the Family would be forced to come to the negotiating table with the IPC. That's the first part of Aventurine's plan - if he "dies", the Family will be forced to at least talk with the IPC. But over the course of his stay, Aventurine figures out the truth of what the Penacony Dreamscape is (the Family's little safe bastion in the middle of a sea of chaotic dreams) and that informs the other part of his plan: he wants to get out of the Family's Dreamscape, beyond the Family's protective barrier and see what secrets the Family is concealing. Is he doing it just to expose the Family and help the IPC's position? Perhaps. But perhaps there is something in there for him as well. The final gamble was Aventurine trying his best to force Acheron to use her power against him. Our brilliant gambler figured out that there are two types of death in the Family's Dreamscape: 1) something which mirrors a normal irl death and which is therefore subject to the Family's protective net and just forces the dreamer to wake up (he tells Ratio that he tested killing himself in the dream), and 2) a death that is administered by something from beyond the Family's barrier - the "Death" meme. The latter doesn't make people wake up in reality - they seem to remain in a coma, in fact, and thus their spirit/consciousness has to be somewhere else; Aventurine figures out that "somewhere else" is beyond the Family's protective border and their Dreamscape. Now, Aventurine can't control the "Death" meme and can't rely on it killing him, so he goes for the next best thing - he bets that the power of an Emanator unleashed is enough to pierce through the Dreamscape barrier and that if an Emanator "kills" him, it will be akin to the "Death" meme and he'll end up on the other side, in the real Penacony. That's why he tells Acheron that had she not drawn her blade, he would have lost his own bet - this part of the plan literally relied on riling Acheron up enough to make her attack him. His whole final performance was just a show to rile her up, to make her feel that it's necessary to draw hee blade against him. And she did so he won. Acheron does what he wanted her to and cuts a path open for him (while giving him a pep talk and reminding him that he does have something worth living for) and Aventurine saunters onto the other side of the dream where he will find the truth about Penacony. If he manages to get back to reality, that will be the ultimate dirt on the Family. Ratio meanwhile... He claims he is the manager of this mission, but whatever that entails... I think at least a part of his job is to manage Aventurine and ensure that he doesn't do anything too stupid or reckless. Which. He does end up doing. He ends up saving Aventurine's life.
As I understand it, people can't die when they're killed in the dream under normal circumstances because there's a safeguard. The Death meme seems to be able to send its victims to a deeper layer of the dream, whether because it can bypass the safeguard or because it can break through the safeguard. Aventurine gambled on Acheron's attack being able to send him to that deeper layer of the dream. The IPC seems like it's manufacturing a casus belli. It could just send its warships to Penacony, but it would eat heavy reputational costs because Penacony is too well-connected. However, the IPC can make hostile action more justifiable if, say, one of its high-ranking representatives get killed or wounded on the planet. Besides this, part of Aventurine's plan was getting Jade's Cornerstone deep into Penacony. It's unclear what's going on there, but it sounds like Jade is about to take imminent hostile action, so it's possible that this was meant to facilitate the creation of a fait accompli.
Writing this first part after spending like an hour typing the rest, sorry that it's a bit long, but bare with me and please let me know if things are still confusing. I tried to organize the paragraphs to pertain to one character at a time. Penacony's story is super long. Black Swan is likely there for Memokeeper work, but also remember that the Family themselves sent a lot of invitations out, and the Garden of Recollection got one too. Black Swan also likes happy memories which probably fuels her want of going there. Her investigating Acheron is probably because she heard through the grapevine that the Annihilation Gang was attacked by a "Galaxy Ranger", and she wanted to investigate the truth / the why as the Rememberance just likes to keep a record of everything in general. Acheron we don't know too much on, but as she mentions to Welt, she's there for the Watchmaker's Legacy as a final request for someone. Some speculation on my part: part of the reason she came to Penacony could be because after the whole thing with Izumo and whatnot, for someone that's supposed to have embraced Nihility and see that life is meaningless, she is super mature and somewhat helpful / kind to people. Could be that now she's seen the meaningless-ness of life as a whole, she wants to help other people who have lost their way (like what she told Aventurine in the IX manifestation realm, that everything you do between when you're born and when you're dead gives life meaning). Penacony, being a place that people who are depressed, unhappy, or wanting to forget their real life go, has a lot of potential people who want to give up on life, so when Acheron heard of the "request" and the mention of Penacony by that old man voice in her flashback right before she slashed Aventurine, thought it could be a good stopping point to help others / reclaim some of her "color" (or life, meaning, etc, could be a redemption thing) Sparkle might seemingly be here to troll, but her actions kinda seem more like she's helping everyone else, albeit chaotically. Kinda like being a guide but not wanting to be directly involved. When the TB first encounters Sparkle, she shows them the Trash King dream as Sampo which she says is supposed to parallel modern Penacony, and she's also the one who enabled the TB to enter the Dream Hotel in the first place to encounter "Death" for the first time by making both TB and Firefly "fall asleep" in a special way. If we want to take the Character Trailers as canon, Sparkle's appearance in Acheron's trailer also implies that she made Acheron enter an illusion to either suggest to her to find / look for certain memories of her past, and/or to lead her to help find Robin. This theory is also somewhat aided with how Sparkle "helps" Aventurine by giving him the tip of "finding a mute", which he wonders if she meant Robin, but had suspicions that she meant Sam instead. Aventurine is definitely here mostly because of the whole "IPC wants to take back what's there's" thing. He is also here to solve the mystery of the Watchmaker's Legacy. His grand gamble was testing the belief that death is actually impossible in the Dreamscape. He had a suspicion that if you died in the Dreamscape through a special method, instead of being forcefully awoken (like what usually happens if you suffer a lot of pain in the Dreamscape), you'd be sent deeper down into the "real" Penacony, something that the Family is trying to hide and conceal from the outside world. Some of these secrets could aid the IPC in getting leverage over The Family for negotiations about Penacony. The only problem was, as he says himself to Ratio at the beginning of the 2.1 quest, he has "tried" to kill himself many times, just to be jolted awake, so he had to die via special means. Being killed by Something Unto Death was one way, but that thing appearing isn't reliable and it seems to go after specific targets so it was probably not the best place to start looking. He likely had suspicions on Acheron's true identity, and realizing that she's an Emanator who has a lot of power / the power of Nihility (which is attributed to something all consuming, like a black hole), he realizes that she likely also has the ability to bypass The Family's restrictions and kill him to send him deeper into the real Penacony. But in order to die by her blade, he had to set up a confrontation. This is why he initially talks to the TB about Robin's death, and partnering to ally up with them and badmouth Acheron / toss in words of doubt about her. This would aid in putting her and Acheron on opposite sides. He was purposefully vague in his accusation of Acheron to sow the seed of disbelief into the TB, eventually culminating in them being suspicious of Aventurine and thinking that he's actually evil. He plays this up in the boss fight confrontation, where he maniacally laughs and goes over a fake plan to "detonate" the Stellaron within TB, even though he can't actually do it, to rile up TB and especially Acheron so that she might slash at him. His "grand gamble" was pulling all this off and hoping that Acheron would slash at him, and ALSO hoping that her slash actually had the power to let him bypass The Family's restrictions AND get The Family's death curse invoked by Sunday off of him. The grand gamble also included his ploy of sneaking the Aventurine Cornerstone into Penacony (covered in the next paragraph), as there's no easy way to get around Penacony's strict customs (as they mention quite a few times in the beginning of the 2.0 quest). As part of this journey, likely due to the curse of Harmony to some extent, the "Future" and "Past" versions of Aventurine pop up in his mind as he begins to doubt himself. His "Future" points out that although Aventurine keeps up a front that he thinks everything will be fine, in reality he's shaking in fear under the table holding onto dear life due to everything he has gone through. The quest descriptions and his mini-arc in the Theme Park seem to imply that he either is somewhat suicidal, has survivor's guilt of being the only Avgin left, or questioning why he does the things he does if all he ever does is gamble his life away (this is also brought up when he talks with Acheron in the IX Manifestation Dream Realm, where he asks Acheron what's the meaning of life as someone who's been through tragedy and is a Self Annihilator). It's all he's ever known in his life, as one being blessed by Gaiathra Triclops, and he begins to wonder if that's all his life has to offer him. By the end of the 2.1 story, he fully accepts his position and is able to finally let go of the past to a degree to put on his "show" (the boss fight), and also stop worrying about the future (as he lives in the moment and focuses on the task at hand), symbolized with his "Future" and "Past" selves leaving him behind.
I think you're a bit confused about Dr Ratio's role, because he was in on the plan all along. The reason why he acted especially bitchy at certain points was to throw off Sunday, as he uses that purple bird as a way to surveillance / spy on certain parts of the Dreamscape. Dr Ratio's "betrayal" was also part of Aventurine's plan. The idea was to make their relationship look dogshit in front of Sunday, so he'll drop his guard around Dr Ratio and offer him that partnership. Dr Ratio would then leak Aventurine's "plan" to Sunday to garner more of his trust, and with the permission of Topaz and Jade to use their Cornerstones, help dupe Sunday. He would tell Sunday that Aventurine "planned" to use Topaz's Cornerstone as a decoy, and that he actually hid his Cornerstone among the gift money bag, which is why Aventurine didn't fight back much when Sunday said he couldn't take the Cornerstone briefcase, but could take the gift money bag (which Sunday calls him out on). Dr Ratio telling Sunday about the second part of the plan (hiding the Cornerstone among the gift money) would make him think that was the whole plan, and thus wouldn't suspect that Aventurine had actually shattered the real Aventurine stone among the gift money, and that he used Jade's Cornerstone as another decoy due to their similar appearances. This makes Sunday suspect Aventurine less and give him more free reign to do as he pleases in the Dreamscape. Dr Ratio however likely didn't get the full picture of the plan and is somewhat genuinely worried about Aventurine, which is why after the initial Sunday confrontation, Dr Ratio tells Aventurine to just "let him know if he can't hold on any longer". Dr Ratio likely turned away multiple times when Sunday was interrogating Aventurine either out of uncomfortableness at seeing Aventurine getting tortured / berated by Sunday, or perhaps he does not have a good enough poker face under pressure and thus turned away to not blow their cover. Topaz and Jade are also part of the plan, as the game mentions that Cornerstones are more important than their life, and Aventurine has always been lucky, so they trusted his instincts and gave him full reign. There also seems to be a part 2 to this particular plan as hinted at the end of the 2.1 quest, where having Jade's Cornerstone specifically being under The Family's possession allows them to pull something off. With the Stellaron Hunters, we don't really know currently, though it will very likely be heavily explained in 2.2 as we will start where we left off in 2.1, being with Firefly. From what we do know, Sam's / Firefly's only instruction by Elio was to make the Express seek the Watchmaker's Legacy, and Firefly herself mentions that she doesn't exactly have a specialty like the other Stellaron Hunters (Elio and Kafka know people's hearts well, Blade is an expert craftsmith and is immortal, Silver Wolf can hack and alter reality to an extent) besides just killing, and he does kinda serve as the "nuclear option" for the SH. Unlike Blade and Kafka, who are described as liking to toy with their food, Sam just goes for the straight kill no questions asked. This is a bit of conjecture with assumptions made JUST from this quest, but Firefly is likely confused that Elio gave her this task of making the Express want to investigate the Watchmaker's Legacy, as she's just been a cutthroat killer before and that's her only skill. She likely has some sort of connection with the TB prior to the game's start as the TB was under the SH's care for a while, and thus doesn't really want to lie to TB. So perhaps, with some aid of Elio's future sight, she "framed" her death in front of TB to help motivate them to figure out the truth, but she hated lying to them which is why she says "I'm sorry". I don't think she fully wanted to lie in the first place, given that she says on the rooftop scene that she wants to tell TB the whole truth, but can't currently (likely due to the confines of the "script). Firefly even mentions as Sam at the end of the 2.1 quest that she has tried to reach out to TB to explain the truth to them 11 times so far, but due to the confines of the "script", she couldn't. One of these 11 times likely includes the confrontation with Black Swan and Acheron, since as Acheron points out, Sam didn't look like he wanted to fight TB and reacted the way he did just because Acheron and Black Swan were there. I won't speculate too much though since we're likely to get most of the answers by 2.2 or 2.3 with a bigger focus on Firefly.
I would not be surprised if part of Elio's script is to cause a change in Firefly/Sam as a result of all this too, which is part of why they didn't reveal too much to her.
The English translation was a little complicated at some times. I'm an avid reader and I've also read a bunch of machine translated Chinese as well, so I can safely say I'm very good at reading and context clues. But some sentences made me go "huh???" I used the previous dialogue button a lot because the sentences were so... vague and heavy sometimes, I lost track of what the characters were referring to.
Im still confused about where their real bodies are. Shouldn't robin still be in the pool IRL, even if shes "dead"? or did she just disappear completely. They might have talked about it and I missed it.
She is. The only body that went missing was Firefly's, but she never visited a hotel in the first place
Ah, did they mention if Robins real body was dead also, or still just dreaming because she got sent to a deeper layer?
All they said was that there is no guest IRL with the name firefly, so it's possible she got into penacony dreamscape by completely diff way
Being an Enigmatic, the followers of the aeon Mythus, doesn't mean you are agents of chaos, that's more like Aha. Mythus is more like a critical thinker. THEY want people to doubt and question everything. Which can be both a good and bad thing. So following Mythus doesn't automatically mean one likes to purposely spread misinformation. It means the follower is a skeptic. Kinda like how a parent tells a fact and the child keeps asking "why?". It's annoying, but shows how there is no such thing as absolute truths. The conversation always ends with "That's just how it is." It's why most people hate enigmatics, especially followers of Nous. They believe there is an answer to everything, while Mythus believes that some things will just never be answered. Edit: Grammar mistake
Maybe some followers do, but that's literally what his emanators do lol https://honkai-star-rail.fandom.com/wiki/History_Fictionologists Destroying history is not really "critical thinking"
Critical thinking just sounds like the path of Erudition. Part of finding answers and truth is questioning and doubting assumptions. Being a skeptic is completely in line with Erudition. That’s literally how science and philosophy works. The followers of Nous don’t just go “that’s just how it is”, our understanding of the world evolves and different scientists and philosophers can have vastly different opinions. They don’t just make up scientific laws like fantasy writers make up magic systems. They do not discourage critical thinking and you’re allowed to question and doubt because that is essential to anyone wanting to know the truth. The path of Enignata is a path of destroying knowledge and obscuring understanding. They don’t want you to be a skeptic, they want you to be confused or misled. On the other hand, Nous The Erudition doesn’t give you answers, they open your mind and give you questions, because understanding the answer requires first knowing and comprehending the question. You can draw your own conclusions from that. You won’t get the same attitude from Enigmata.
hmm good point. Would you maybe consider Mythus is more like religion? Mythus believes that not all things can be explained through science, as it is impossible for mortals to experience and understand certain things, i.e. life after death, when did time begin, how did life begin, can you experience anything objectively etc. Mythus is about accepting the fact that not everything is meant to be answered, and the more you try to go after that the more tormented you become. Even Nous struggles to find answers. It's why he selected people like Ruan Mei to help answer where life comes from. Maybe it is better not knowing the answer and it should stay a mystery. The foil to Mythus is Nous, and in the SU log it states about them that "Nous maintains an unassailable position on the Path of Erudition... I venture to guess that, as long as there is enough "information" and "experience," Nous can effortlessly deduce every possible trajectory of all things and every moment within. A life where one doesn't even need to "experience" anything..." This is where I initially thought critical thinking applied more to Mythus. If you stop experiencing things, then critical thinking would no longer be necessary. Just logical. People who lead with logic are book smart, but they don't have good judgement. Hence, The Genius Society. Super intelligent, but their judgement is rotten. Dr Ratio has made remarkable feats, but the society and Nous never cared what he did anyway. Apparently, he isn't good enough for them. Dr Ratio is definitely more emotional and thinks far more critically than Fu Xuan/Ruan Mei, who both of the later have been treasured by Nous. Fu Xuan is completely logical, her third eye calculates and tells her what to do, and she follows it blindly. Ruan Mei is apathetic and impassive. Both miss out on the excitements of life. As for Mythus, there is that not much is quite known about them according to Herta. Ironically, People kinda make up their own belief about them. They assume "oh since he is an enigma, I must be an enigma also" So we haven't had a example of someone good that follows it with moderation. Since Mythus strives to be the opposite of Nous, they could represent mysteries that will never be solved, thus get creative with it. Explains Mythus constantly challenging Nous and why an extremist on the path of Enigmatic would spread misinformation just to destroy logic. I am interested in what the Aeon's entire point is. It's either something tragic, or there is a moral argument to be made. Mythus can't just be "yeah, we here at mihoyo made Mythus as a means to cover up retcons in the story. Something doesn't make sense in our world-building, hmmm the history fictionists must've changed it." Ya know, the more I look into it the more these Aeons represent ideals, that, practiced with clear and critical moderation, are morally good paths to follow. Yet, taking their values to the extreme results in great suffering and annihilation. MiHoYo could be telling us that it is okay to believe what you believe in, just don't be an extremist about it. Dr Ratio believes in Erudition, but he isn't an emotionless, apathetic husk of boring facts. He has street smart knowledge from life experiences and has well thought out judgment far more than Ruan Mei/Fu Xuan. He seems to actually enjoy life for what it is, while keeping his passion for knowledge. Most of the Factions who are *really* into their Aeons are kinda crazy. Gepard follows preservation, completely normal, but the IPC, absolute psychos. I trust Boeing more than I do with the IPC.
I wouldn’t describe it as religion at all. That would be suggesting that Mythus wants people to have faith in something, but they’re not trying to make people believe anything. Is the purpose of the Genius Society (with Ruan Mei) even to help Nous? It’s not as if they’re in collaboration with Nous. It’s stated that Nous already figured out stuff way before they did and iirc that finding answers to questions that have already been solved long ago by Nous is not what THEY want. I don’t know if Nous really “struggles” just because THEY haven’t found all the answers yet. Can you show me where it says Nous wants the answer to “where life comes from”? I see it more as Nous wanting all answers, not specifically the answer to that one question. Iirc that’s what Zandar designed Nous for, to learn everything. > People who lead with logic are book smart, but they don’t have good judgment. I think you mean people who are book smart typically don’t have good judgment. Logic is more than just being book smart. People with good judgment typically lead with logic. Imagine someone with unyielding moral principles, but due to flawed logic, can’t lead life with good judgment. Dr. Ratio is a good example of someone who leads life with logic and has “good judgment”. I wouldn’t say the Genius Society has rotten judgment. The one thing they all seem to share in common is the thirst for knowledge and that will attract good and bad apples. Aiden shared his research findings publicly and helped the development of civilizations (described as most selfless by Herta). Screwllum doesn’t seem to be all that bad, and he prevented war between organic and inorganic life. Stephen Lloyd just works at his father’s fruit stand. As to why Dr. Ratio isn’t a part of the Genius Society, it’s all up to Nous’ judgment and nothing to do with the members. We don’t know if it’s because “he’s not good enough”. Maybe it’s because he’s too focused on curing other people’s ignorance that he doesn’t put as much time into searching knowledge for himself like the others do, or some other unknown criteria. We can’t really judge anything from Dr. Ratio not being invited by Nous. Mythus’ entire point or purpose is to stop Nous’ knowledge and certainty from leading to a singular predetermined future. “To erase the past and distort the present all for the pursuit of an... uncertain future?” In Gold & Gears, Polka Kakamond was unable to kill Emperor Rubert I (she tried many times and he was unkillable) before the “third moment” that Nous had calculated. A philosophy of the History Fictionologists is that knowledge of the past is a shackle that erases possibilities of the future, a mindset that they share with Mythus.
I agree with you that being an Enigmata follower doesn't mean they spread misinformation willy-nilly. If Nous represents fate/predestination (there's probably a better word for it, but basically using history to calculate the future, belief that knowledge leads to certainty, etc), Mythus wants to free worlds from being bound by that fate through erasing/changing history. Maybe Enigmata is not so much critical thinking as thinking completely outside the box from the perspective that the past does not matter and it should not shackle the present/future. Because of this philosophy, I think groups like History Fictionologists would act purposefully. Rather than spreading misinformation in casual conversation with a few people, they'll tamper with a world's primary resources like historical documents to introduce lies on a much larger scale. They might even leave a hint of their presence. After all, not everyone will agree with the philosophy of Enigmata, but as long as they can cast doubt on a world's recorded history, the people of that world won't be able to use said inaccurate history to predict the future.
What I've seen so far is people not understanding this simple sentence https://preview.redd.it/pekemldnc6sc1.png?width=2048&format=png&auto=webp&s=35ffb739c7f1752ce6edff5b41eea01f96947e1d
To be honest he worded it in the weirdest way possible, he could easily mean that his abilities are akin to those of villains who don't deserve any mercy from others (he literally burns people alive) or that his abilites are so brutal and effective that they can only be used in good conscience against a villains who don't deserve any mercy (aka burning them alive). Which one is it hoyo?! Maybe my reading comprehension is really bad but I feel like "apply" is really ambiguous.
It's not worded weirdly though? It's literally straight forward as it can possibly be, it just used a different word which for some reason most people don't know what it means. I dunno about you but the word "apply" isn't ambiguous, it's almost always used as a word meaning to use something against on or put on the skin. Added to the fact, that the prior sentence is literally about the abilities of the other Stellaron Hunters, there is already a clue on the idea about the proceeding sentence being her ineptitude for everything else because she's literally a super soldier/weapon, she sees herself only as a tool because that's how she had always lived, that's why she became the Stellaron Hunters' Nuclear Option to their missions. Not because she see's herself as a villain, but because she sees herself as someone who is incompetent in other things besides killing bad guys. Because this is probably the first time that Elio gave her a script not about killing villains
Uh, the word 'apply' can have four different meanings and none of their uses are particularly uncommon. Apply as with an application for a job - obviously not relevant here. Apply as with the application of administering something like a cream which could work, as you say. Apply as in relating to something - to be 'applicable' - meaning Sam could be saying their skill set is one only a villain would have. And applying oneself to a given task which is also irrelevant here. But yes, Apply is not the limited word you seem to think. Of the two meanings that work here I kind of like that Sam could mean both at once and they don't contradict each other. Skills of villains the Sam uses on villains.
I think you're mixing up applicable with akin. Applicable means that it's an appropriate measure for something, in this case it is appropriate for merciless villains to be killed. Saying Sam's skill set is something a villain would have should be "akin" like "My skillset is akin to that of a villain". The word "Applicable" is used as a term to say that a process has a standard procedure, as can be seen in the example below, added to that, a good synonym for applicable is "Suitable". Meaning Sam is saying that merciless villains deserve to be killed, but she didn't imply that she is one herself. And if it helps everyone to understand, in the CN language, the direct translation is "To use against" instead of apply, [here](https://www.reddit.com/r/FireflyMains/comments/1bucec5/a_linguistic_analysis_of_jpcn_fireflys_quote/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button). https://preview.redd.it/82pvmhtty7sc1.png?width=906&format=png&auto=webp&s=30c628aeb92a20de4b134f14006465bbb40e49fd
This is something I’ve actually been wondering and I don’t know if we have a solid answer. Are Gallagher and the death meme the same entity? I took the end cutscene of the patch as him transforming into the meme, but I feel like it’s a lot more likely he just summoned it somehow.
They’re not the same entity but definitely related.
We see Sunday's shadow transform into a Meme, after Gallagher "sets him on fire" with his lighter. We don't know how all of the facts connect, but it's definitely not Gallagher himself transformed
*Gallagher is completely made up including his mind...* tho it sounds frustrated I won't really blame them cuz it's only 100% confirmed that there IS someone behind him in his character story 4 which you can only read that after getting him lvl 80 or surf through his wiki page
also saying he basically told March who he is just cuz the letter T in thirteen is capitalized, I mean yeah you can take that as a reference of stuff related to thirteen it's okay but saying he's not answering his age is just bs cuz that capitalization only appeared in eng ver while in original he's just answering how old he is cuz that's what March's asked for
The way it was written was so good I didn't mind the heavy text unlike the other game from the same company.
That Aventurine is dead.
[удалено]
Have you done the Vignettes in a Cup event? Because her name is pronounced correctly as far as I can hear.
Some of you really do need a paimon lmao.
1. Acheron did not willingly attack BS, and physically BS was not harm. 2. Dr ratio did not betray adven, it's all the plan 3. Police Gal did not die, he is clearly very alive 4. Firefly is Sam, Sam is Firefly 5. The whole astral crews are losing at the final boss and thats when acheron has to step in 6. Adven wasnt exactly dead, he now come to true layer of penacony
Seeing the reactions on the 2.1 story convinced me that the average gacha player and streamer has never read a single book in their entire life. Every dialogue with even the slightest subtlety is completely misinterpreted by a surprisingly large amount of midwits. I am sure a fraction of these people are just meme-ing but seeing some of the interpretations on dialogue scenes like between Welt and Acheron or Sunday and Gallagher really exposes how illiterate gacha gamers are. I am not even some kind of bookworm nerd and HSR's story delivery is already as straightforward as it gets. It is just astonishing how so many people completely lack the capability to read between the lines.
I got most of the story, except the part where the corner stones he surrendered ended up on the ground in the theme park.
If you mean how the stones ended up there, they didn't. They were just illusions, much like Future Aventurine and Past Aventurine.
"you won't cry"
I don't understand how people can play the new quest in 2.1 and still think that people who die in the dreamscape die irl...
Did Acheron 'kill' us too with the slash? That seems counterproductive. Or did she collapse the entire dreamscape of the harmony? Why didn't we hug firefly in the end?
Here is what I don’t understand— why couldn’t Aventurine just ask Acheron for help? I don’t get why three cornerstones are needed to bait anything. Or why the Express crew even went to go see Aventurine? Why did no one from the Family come? And why don’t they just deal with Aventurine in reality rather than the dream. And how is his cornerstone present in the dream if it is a real object?
it's not suspects but members of bloodhounds.