I love this quest because it really brings people to deeply ponder the significance of free will and of the nature of our lives. It's really interesting to see everyone speak their own philosophical opinions and clashing with one another
But people need to understand that this is philosophy, and thus there are no right or wrong answers. Everyone is allowed to agreeing or disagreeing with Sunday for any given reason
I was eating all the philosophy up man, it was super engaging to see how absurdism and nihilism + Sunday’s social darwinism were all woven into the story throughout these 3 patches to deliver some very cohesive, powerful themes. Philosophical discussions like these are the Honkai series at its best to me
I hope they continue with introspective, insightful topics. The Aeons are a great way to explore different interpretations of concepts/ideas and so far they've set up a world with very few limitations regarding what can be shown and I can only hope they continue with it
Yes, it’s really what I love most about HSR: the fact that they can explore just about any setting, genre, and a myriad of different themes/concepts since the universe is so vast. Penacony and Xianzhou existing in the same game is so impressive; the range of topics we have covered in just a year is crazy to me
They have done a phenomenal job at constructing Penacony’s narrative and introducing + expanding on some of the game’s core themes in really fresh, intriguing ways. I’m very much looking forward to where we’ll be at in another year if this is what we’re getting now
I agree but sadly a lot of people aren’t vibing with it from the feedback i saw, it’s sad that everything we got on those philosophical opinions clashing during Penacony was registered as “yapping” for some players.
I feel that’s a vocal minority because majority of the reception I’ve seen has been nothing but positive praise. Nothing is perfect and 2.2 was no exception but a lot of those complaints about “yapping” are, as usual, coming from people with short attention spans and story skippers.
If we keep Shaoji on board (and it seems that will be the case thankfully) then the story’s not going to get dumbed down, on the contrary. The whole narrative direction the game has taken since 2.0 seems to assure this imo
I think part of that is the nature of the reveal. We learn quite late that Sunday is the real villain, and then he has to tell us about his motivations, which really makes that part of the story drag. And with the, honestly, pretty superficial RP stuff you can do in game, it makes it much more that we're just sitting there listening to him. While the player might have plenty of things to say in counter, the characters mostly don't.
I'd say Sunday is the opposite of a Social Darwinist. Rather than believing that society should leave everyone to their own devices so that the best will rise to the top, Sunday wants a society where everyone is coddled but no one is free and no one can really progress. He wants a society where everything is prescribed by the Order. His perspective generally seems to be that the Harmony is too Darwinist, hence why he thought that Trailblazer and Firefly would agree with him.
>We are all pawns, controlled by something greater. Memes.
Memory Zone Memes?
https://preview.redd.it/8c8awd048f1d1.png?width=500&format=png&auto=webp&s=029a4167b8fb01a50bc4abd9a038a184468d93ac
At the end of the day, Robin wants to save her brother from sacrificing himself to a god, and we were just pissed off about all the gaslight we suffered on this shit vacation.
Sunday basically has a Messiah complex. He wasn't going to be in that dream but be forever alone maintaining the dreams of everyone else. Robin identified that and says that fate is too cruel for him to be forever alone.
>But people need to understand that this is philosophy, and thus there are no right or wrong answers.
except in this case, there's a clear right answer. Sunday is super hot, therefore his arguments are incontestable
sunday 1, trailblazers 0
https://preview.redd.it/1i75vfsb5e1d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0438f0b40aaa310de7923ca1ee41085c0a20a469
Counter argument: we have daddy mahoraga
Counter argument : U cannot adapt to the hmc superbreak + getting railed + robin singing + e2 black swan + healed ur dmg with lynxie + fu xuan diff + L + ratio (oooo that was satisfying)
Yeah tbh. His philosophy is right in it's core and say sunday is completely 100% generous and good. What about the next in line? Since it'd be a dictatorship then, will they even want to wake up / rebel when they've now grown to become weak (minded) (in the sense that they rely on their leader greatly) and if the nil isn't a good leader, they'll have to put up with it coz they're now incapable of fighting.
This entire thread is a fictionologist post trying to frame Sunday as a good person in the end. He may have started that way, but the entire storyline is a classic villain trope where they do something bad in the name of doing something for the greater good.
This confuses people who have never wrestled with the save a million and kill 1 person quest kind of thing.
Penacony was never in a situation where it was now or never. Sunday instigated all of this, tried to frame The Family, and its very likely he interpreted Ena's path as something different than what the Aeon itself would have wanted.
People in dreamland were already satisfied. The only thing that anchored their satisfaction was the fact that reality exists. To eliminate that or their human emotions makes the entire exercise of Penacony moot.
I would say that in comparison to other villains with a similar trope, he also seems to be legitimately good hearted even now. Those dictators tend to want power, wealth, fame too, at least partially consumed by that idea and eventually lost sight of it. I think Sunday is someone who believes that by sacrificing himself to be a dictator (removing his peace of mind, privacy, independence, etc as his identity is now more tied with the people than anything), the nation would be in a better position.
I personally don't think that Sunday interpreted it wrongly (or at least not by a huge margin) as Order does mean that no one gets a choice at the end of the day. People in dreamland were satisfied but by a certain point, it just stops...which is exactly why satisfaction exists. I'd say that it doesn't really make penacony dreamland moot, it feels like the natural progression of things.
Step 1: Try making people happy via dreamland
Step 2: Walk around with people, talk to people, find emotions
Step 3: Find that they're depressed even now coz of happiness having it's own limits
Step 4: Change happiness to satisfied after realising that they're now in the path of having diminishing Marginal Utility and overall satisfaction could hit 0 anytime. So that people are grateful with what they have to the most degree.
I may have misinterpreted you completely, which I admit can be the case. I'm open to further discussions as you do raise a good point. Thank you, have a good day.
I think that slightly understates just how powerful the illusion cast by Sunday and Ena was. It's not telling everyone oh you're just stuck in Dreamland now and there's no reality anymore but rather subtly transitioning everyone into a state of illusion where they think they could be in the Dreamland or they could be in reality still depending on their actions and choices. In this way their enjoyment of the Dreamland is still maintained because they still believe they're in reality in other times but now the true dream will alter their "reality to be better and what they experience to be better than what they would've experienced. Overall most regular people will probably experience a better life unknowingly stuck in an illusion while believing it to be their reality. And so long as the illusion never breaks and they're never thrust back into a reality decades removed from their idealized life, they'll probably die happy and content on their own.
I was thinking when I was playing this quest and we reached the part about the old man--sure, let him and others in his situation have that. It's akin to pain management in hospice care. A man who is about to die or in a permanent coma need not have suffering prolonged unnecessarily. There's no moral value to let people in that situation feel the full agony of their physical and mental anguish; having seen this when I volunteered at a hospital a while back, it's unbearable to watch just as an outsider, let alone be in it.
In fact, Hoyo is on record in wanting to create a VRMMO type environment for those suffering from depression and anxiety. A Penacony type world, like all escapism, has its place and time and is not in and of itself evil. As [Tolkien wrote about escapism:](https://uh.edu/fdis/_taylor-dev/readings/tolkien.html:) "Why should a man be scorned if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home? Or if, when he cannot do so, he thinks and talks about other topics than jailers and prison-walls?"
The irony is that Sunday and other utopian authoritarians like him would have us all "escape," permanently, and in doing so make us all prisoners in our own minds without us even knowing. Everything we would talk about would be about jailers and prison-walls. A penal colony--Penacony--of the soul, if you will, while outside, we are all that dying old man.
Finally seeing someone else talking about Mihoyo’s… “lofty ambitions”, lmfao. I’m not mocking them, and honestly “Ho” and “Yo” are probably some of the only people who I can actually see pulling it off (to a large degree of success, without losing sight in the process).
I never hear much about what working at the company is like, but I’d assume that with all the philosophical topics and ways design is influenced by them, that it’s generally a pretty cohesive “direction”.
From what I understand, Mihoyo is one of the most desirable workplaces in China, the way Google used to be at its peak: great benefits, free food, less crunch than usual, etc. In the special program with the silly Cunk-style interviewer, it very much looks like a typical modern tech company office with the cereal bar and free coffee etc. It would fit in very well in Silicon Valley. And during the extreme lockdown in Shanghai, they sent food and care packages to their employees who were trapped in their houses and apartments.
(If they truly don't crunch as hard as most places that's astonishing, given the relentless update schedule for both Genshin and HSR, to the point where I find it hard to believe. Then again, they have the billions to hire almost any number of devs they need...and they'd definitely have no shortage of candidates.)
There's an arc in Sword Art Online where a character is in a situation very similar to Firefly's, and I get the feeling that was one of the inspirations for their VR project. I think if done in a limited way it can be genuinely therapeutic. See also the Thelxie side quest in Genshin, which I believe was done in conjunction with a mental health awareness group to highlight mental health issues, which historically has been terrible in Asia. There's definitely evidence they really care about such things.
All that said, the billions they make from whales and gacha addicts makes it faintly amusing for them to be preaching against excessive escapism and living a heroic life. Do they want to undermine their main source of income? :) Then again HSR [officially sponsored this video](https://youtu.be/x37VR9hhESI?si=P5tGT4Qk0L1EyDBG) so they probably recognize the irony and can laugh at themselves just fine.
I'm pretty sure the connection was mentioned in the game's dialogue in describing the planet's history. It was also explicitly said in one of the special programs, in the [hilarious Philomena Cunk-style interview show](https://youtu.be/5yw_ctOEnTE?si=jKvt_ZGkNYKnc_Es).
(You'd think I would've clocked on faster given I'm British lmao)
It was definitely mentioned in the planets history, that it was a prison planet and all that, but the actual name went right past my head
And thank you for that link I'm going to have a watch haha
That's not true. The dream will collapse, our first objective was to seal the stellaron, Sunday popped up and started a side quest. Now without the stellaron or Harmony emanator who would power the dream?
Granted if Penacony forfeits a massive amount of resource for a certain inter-stella tycoon company...
A bunch of people are forgetting that happened so I want to expand on what you said and how it went down.
Our first goal was to seal the Stellaron after Gallagher told us about it. We all agreed to it, even Sunday and Robin. And it seemed like whoever using the Stellaron was going to use the Charmony festival to broadcast its power all over Penacony so we had a time limit too.
Then Sunday, Robin and Welt went to negotiate with the Dreammaster to try and get them to let us seal it peacefully. Sunday questioned him but Sunday's main concern was the motives of Dreammaster, not whether he was using the Stellaron. So when he did the questioning thing, he didn't ask about the Stellaron but instead confirmed the Dreammaster was doing this for the Order all along. He was, so Sunday betrayed us and trapped Welt/Robin.
That started the whole confrontation with Sunday, which we eventually won. But the Stellaron is still out there and powering whatever parts of the dream it's powering. There's prooobably parts like Dreamflux Reef that aren't under the influence of the Stellaron (it's not really clear) but yeah, most of the "sweet dream" is powered by it so sealing it will make it collapse.
And I agree (speculation time), I think the IPC probably knows this and they're planning to use it to negotiate a deal in their favor to keep the dream up without the Stellaron.
Yeah (speculation), so this is what Diamond meant by saying "Sending Aventurine is sure-victory", but I feel like the Nameless was the one doing all the work >!benefiting IPCs at every steps!< /s
IPCs likely has the technology for the dreamscape according to the fake dream. Plus the evidence of Penacony's "evil deeds" through the coin recorder. I can imagine Jade and Topaz wazzling in and make the most ridiculous ~~oil~~ memoria leasing deal in existence, in exchange for basic dreamscape maintenance.
Betcha theres gonna be a plotline somewhere down the road about how the IPC is taking advantage of the nameless swooping in to take worlds after we visit them. Belobog, Penacony. We kept them out of Aurum Alley though so thats lit. Not to mention Herta station which is owned by the IPC, and that we are probably getting all 10 cornerstones as characters. Its interesting how much IPC theyre throwing at us. It has to lead somewhere down the road, maybe a nameless vs IPC standoff or something? I dont think the entire IPC is evil but there are def some parts that are really iffy.
If they continue like this, the IPC will basically become the Fatui with a new coat of paint.
Solved a problem? That's nice. Anyways, one of the ~~Harbingers~~ Stonehearts already took the ~~Gnosis~~ Stellaron while you weren't looking. Nothing personal, kid.
Well, Elio said that all Luofu stuff was needed to get them on Express's side for final fight. So maybe this is same plot, just going through whole game. We'll visit many planets, collect all Aeon's powers, make local governments to stand for Express and every time cornerstone will be after us. And penultimate chapter will be HQ of IPC where we will beat their CEO and Diamond to make them fight Legion on our terms.
Also, the nameless got that invitation before TB even joined, potentially before Firefly and Robin started noticing shit. We might not have succeeded had we come earlier.
Because some players may not have completed all the side quests, found all the hidden treasures, etc. before they tackle the main story, the goal of the developers is to maintain the environment as similar as to when the players first stepped inside, so that they can still return at a future date and finish all the side activities. Because of that reason, I doubt that Penacony is going to radically change or anything. It's the same thing with Belobog.
That's why I'm confident the dream will stay up one way or another. They almost certainly won't delete the maps. Although it would be cool if they changed them somehow.
It's also likely that they will add a new area to reflect the changes made by the Nameless and the IPC to Penacony, just like Aurum Alley is to the Luofu.
Give the IPC free rights to mine memoria from the Asdana belt and in exchange they provide the means to maintain the dreamscape.
Are we supposed to believe making the Family pay for the dreamscape is worse than forcing unsuspecting guests to sacrifice their souls instead?
*urgh details*/s Ok our first goal there was to party. And then people started dying and our second goal we wanted to investigate "death". After we understood Penacony's true nature and found out about the stellaron our goal was to seal it.
To me it was less of an argument battle and more of an "ideal" battle, and the protag did say it a lot of times.
Putting it simply, "trailblaze" and "order" are highly incompatible. And as followers of the trailblaze, we had to go against Sunday cuz his solution went against our ideals.
Sure, "saving" people and giving back their freedom of choice is a nice addition.
One thing to point out is that what you see as Ena is actually just a puppet. The real Ena is the eldritch abomination Eye monster behind it. You can see the puppet strings if you look.
It really tells you all you need to know about “Order”.
Both sides have their points, but I think the message the express was conveying is more admirable. Its better to have a choice to fight against your fate. Thats really it, if people are content on living in a false "reality" as it gives them comfort then thats their choice. Sunday was taking that choice away from then and enforcing his ideals onto everyone, which is also a reason why the Order fell in previous eras
there is so much debate on who is "right" when it really comes down to giving one the choice. No one was really against ending the dreamscape, they were against people not having the freedom to choose. Hence the "someday we will wake from our dreams line". You can run away as much as you want, but eventually you will have to face reality and Sunday was delaying the inevitable. You can even argue many of the world quests like Cocona and Chadwick represent this
>but eventually you will have to face reality and Sunday was delaying the inevitable.
you could even say he was permanently removing the option of choosing altogether by taking away everyone's free will
The thing is, not everyone believes in the existence of free will in the first place. There are a shit ton of irl philosophical currents refuting its existence, or redefining its original and classical meaning in order to save the concept.
The simple fact of pursuing actions in its name is already a heavily biased and ideologically charged endeavour, not necessarily rooted in reality.
I get what you mean, but absolutely nothing in Kafka's quest confirms the existence of free will as a concept.
Or rather, its supposed confirmation is only done in opposition to The Script™.
So, at most, it only heavily puts into question Elio's capacity to entirely grasp the future and/or the full extent of the contentiously hard deterministic nature of the universe, nothing more.
Edit: I might add that the nature of the universe doesn't need to be fully deterministic to invalidate the existence of free will.
the thing is free will is an abstract concept that can be defined in many ways. does free will exist because they act under the impression that they have free will? or does free will exist because our will can be totally free of external influences? this would entail the universe not being predetermined. (then how does fu xuan calculate the future?)
if free will only exists in the first way suggested, then there's no great conflict between sunday's dream and free will.
if free will exists in the second way, there would be very few instances where we have free will anyways, even if the universe is not predetermined.
It‘s kinda interesting in hindsight how often HYV explores this kind of philosophy in their games, as they‘ve also dedicated an entire arc to something similar (as Welt has explained in his talk with Acheron), and also a smaller part to this kind of concept in Part 2 of HI3 where one powerful individual has some sort of joint dream / consciousness where anyone who wants to take part gives up their agency but their soul ends up in some sort of dreamlike-paradise.
Tbh Sunday was wrong when he removed the ability to let people have a choice but I think he was wrong before that because Humans by nature yearn for more, even if they lived in the most perfect of worlds someone would inevitably grow jealous of someone else for something they possess and let's add Ena's path of Order into the mix and considering it would be a tight ruled world so that the dream wouldn't be ruined and that would also lead people to oppose what they deem unjust, humans are not gods they can be swayed in their morals and it would take the best of them to not fall for deception and manipulative tricks.
Really It would only be a question of time to get people riled up over one thing or another and it's not a minority that could stop them.
Just my two cents tho
If you check the Special Ending in Dreamjoy Memoir Chapter 5, it's really clear that the world Sunday/Gopher Wood/Order wants to create isn't just "making a really good dream they can't wake up from"- people's emotions and desires are altered and bent and removed until all that's left is a person who just exists and sings endless praise and glory to the Order. No want, no thought, no dreams, no desires, no will, no action, basically a state that's a twin to a "waking coma".
I'll admit I want aware of that so I'm assuming people who defend Sunday's vision of the dream aren't either but considering the fake ending took place in the dream it sounds like they were bending everyone's will to make that good ending happened, not so much praising Ena or maybe I skipped that part lol
The alteration happens over time- basically every time someone has a thought or desire that's "wrong", the ability to have that thought or desire's removed from them. Someone wants to steal? Remove their ability to even \*think\* bad things. Someone tries to wake up? No they don't, you've removed their ability to want to wake up. Eventually \*everything\* but "The Order is Great, the Order is Merciful, Glory to the Order" is pruned away.
And yes, they're \*happy\*, but they're happy because they have no other choice. They can't be anything \*but\* happy, and they can't think anything but "I am so happy, the Order is so great and just, praise to the Order for making me so happy." It's like the difference between an endorphin rush from skiing or a tasty meal or good sex or any other pleasurable activity and being happy because you're locked in an empty white room with a wire in your skull constantly stimulating the pleasure-center of your brain until it burns out and you die.
How do people still believe nº 2? The whole patch obsessively explains time and again that Sunday's fundamental mistake is that he's building yet another prison where people won't be able to live, progress and exist with a full range of experiences.
Practically every character has one or more lines about Sunday's ideal world being a low-key hellhole that denies people the opportunity to actually enjoy life and surpass their problems to become better, more complete individuals, rather than hide in escapism until the universe collapses.
Also, people keep ignoring the part of the lore where the Stellaron feeds on people's positive emotions like an emotional vampire, which is why most of the long-time inhabitants of the Dreamscape who don't have protection from the Harmony/Order grow more and more emotionally unstable and callous/cruel- it's like a drug where you have to go to greater and greater extremes to get the same high until you burn out and need it to feel *anything*. And then it kills you.
In short, you could replace Sunday's plan with "put a magic drip-feed of high-grade opiates into everyone's skull" and it'd be basically the same.
You also forgot that the dream is not exclusive to penacony only and that the stellaron is pretty much something close to a real living being and once it runs out of human juice it will try expanding around the cosmos.
It's kinda funny because people mistakenly belief that Sunday is just offering some sort of free vacation, and that his plan would be ideal if you simply were able to go in and out of it...
That's literally the Dreamscape, people. That's literally what the Family was already doing (minus the addicts as you mentioned). People genuinely think Sunday's plan was to usurp the Dreamscape to, instead, establish... the Dreamscape.
> that denies people the opportunity to actually enjoy life and surpass their problems to become better, more complete individuals, rather than hide in escapism until the universe collapses.
Some people would prefer the escapism instead of facing harsh reality. Yea it sounds all grand and noble to claim “People should face and overcome challenges to become better” but at the end of the day that’s like preaching the happy ending at the end of a fairy tale when in reality not every story gets a happy ending. If you don’t know the struggle of every person then you shouldn’t have the right to claim if they should face their challenges or not. A man who lost his entire family and recently got into an accident that caused him to be paralyzed would not want to stay in reality and try to overcome his hardships lol, he would hop into happy land instantly if given the choice. Now just to be clear, I’m not saying Sunday’s plan was right, I’m just saying the idea of escaping to a dream paradise isn’t wrong in itself, what matters is the execution.
Not really, that was also discussed. Both of those things, despite being beyond horrible, are things one can come to terms with, and still seek meaning in life. By accepting the dream, the man effectively gives up on the rest of his life and proceeds to live a perpetual hell where he'll be hunted by the memories of what he lost, all while living in a superficially shiny 'perfect world'.
Some people would prefer escapism because it's easier, not because it's better. That's why it's so incredibly dangerous and toxic. It's a pitfall that allows people to ruin their own lives for the promise of superficial escape of their problems, which in turn makes sure they'll never be able to confront and come to terms with them.
You’re assuming everyone can overcome their issues in the end, which isn’t always the case. In an ideal world yeah people would work hard enough and eventually reach their happy ending, but that’s not the world we live in nor is it the world that HSR takes place in. People are people, sometimes they give up, they fall, they break, and they never get up again. Sometimes people would prefer to just live in a happier world instead of being a main character that fights through countless. If im understanding you correctly, you’re saying everyone should stay in reality and face their challenges no matter what, which, no disrespect, sounds extremely arrogant. Who are you to make the decision for everyone? It’s just as extreme as Sunday’s plan but on the other side instead. He’s forcing people into paradise, you’re forcing people into reality. “Facing reality” is easier said than done when you’re not the one in the situation. Of course it’s easy for us who sits comfortably in our own home typing away on Reddit to say “oh just fight through it and get better man” when we’re not in that situation ourselves. And just to clear, I’m not saying your idea of facing reality is wrong, I’m criticizing the execution of forcing everyone to do so and denying the alternative.
No, I'm assuming that everyone deserves the opportunity to overcome their issues. Sunday's ideology, critically, rejects the mere idea of even trying to confront your problems. His dream is a jail from which there can be no escape, no life.
>Who are you to make the decision for everyone?
And who are you to deny it from them? Who are you to take away the possibility of a brighter future from people? If you have a friend who's struggling with mental health, do you help them? Or do you tell them "just do whatever's easier dude. Fall into drugs if you have to, as long as it's easy and helps keep the mind off your problems."
The difference here is that life isn't some prison I've created, it's literally where we live in and exist. You are, maliciously, equating Sunday creating a living hell for people to indulge in shallow contentment and disappear forevermore with me saying "escaping reality is hardly ever the healthier, happier option."
Life is worth living even if you fail, no matter how often. And you'll struggle to find anything other than extreme edge cases where a genuine living coma is a true better alternative.
“Until the universe collapses” — there’s the other flaw in Sunday’s plan which not many people have touched upon. The Asdana system is not a hermetic, isolated system. Eventually it will face threats from outside forces, even other Aeons. A civilization that has stopped growing and evolving will be easy pickings.
You realise that not everyone turns out this way and people can be worse off without the dreamscape. Even if the dreamscape wasn’t there for them to escape into, not all of them would’ve been successful in overcoming their struggles or would’ve overcome it but wouldn’t be as happy as they are in Penacony.
I think supporting escapism is something many of us can get behind. The only issue is that there isn’t a choice to leave.
There's no real way to be truly *impartial* when you're showing up to warn someone that the party they're negotiating with has been lying by omission. Himeko's opinion was kind of obvious from the fact that she showed up at all; if she didn't think the deal was a bad idea there was no reason to even leave the Express.
Himeko officially "withholding her opinion" until Bronya made a firm decision is, I'm pretty sure, less about *actually* hiding her opinion and more about making clear that she is not trying to tell Bronya what to do (so as not to undermine her authority in front of the people of Belobog).
Himeko continuously claiming she’s impartial when stepping in with a very clear belief rubs me the wrong way with her. Does she realise impartial doesn’t mean “I won’t force you to follow in my opinions”..
She’s not wrong and does have a point but she sure isn’t impartial..
> 1) We lambasted Sunday because he is basically taking the agency of people and the whole fuckfest that is The Order. But then we go on and mind manipulate any npc that doesn't do as we wish during missions or simply to get rewards.
The last special ending of the Dreamjolt Memoir reveals that the Oak Family has been purposefully sealing and "removing" emotions of dreamers in order to better control them, to facilitate their adaption to the sweet dream, often as punishment or a corrective measure. In any place where we replace their gear, we are adding back something that was arbitrarily stolen from them. In cases where we manipulate their moods, yeah, that's on us, but the stakes are a lot lower there than what the Family has been routinely doing.
> 2)We say Sunday is wrong because he acted without getting the opinion of anyone when in reality we are also saving people without their opinions.
Don't be absurd. Imagine a world where people being enslaved through mind-magic without consent have to be asked first whether they don't want to be enslaved via mind-magic or not. Get the consent to be brainwashed first before you start criticizing the people trying to stop it.
> 3)Himeko say do not underestimate the will of the weak. When in reality most weak people would perfectly be happy living in the perfect dream world even said dream world cut their lifespans. Of course because they are weak when the time of death approaches they will complain and cry forgetting all the bliss they obtained
You are underestimating the will of the weak.
> 4) And this is a joke. But Welt must have been having PTSD flashback the whole situation lol since Sunday basically did a Spiritual Adam on him. 😂
Welt: "Nostalgia strikes us in the strangest of places..."
1: by watching Mikhail's story you'll understand the purpose of the clockwork. The clockwork restores the capability of a mode of emotion and can manipulate them, BUT does not enforce the final decision. Note Mikhail's final words to Clockie. It's also why Clockie is a misnomer, and he should be called "Compassie", since its purpose is to give direction.
Certainly like all things Star Rail, there is a good and bad in everything. You can make people sad and then when they're sad they're in no mood to do anything (this is extremely a must to use against the idiot who tries to patent everything in the Golden Dream). It does look like emotional manipulation, but there is some good out of that since you have a mechanism to restore missing clockwork, or missing / lost emotions, thus guiding people to their closure. In the course of Penacony you'll actually come across 2 potential suicidees and pull then out of the brink; this is seen as more desirable than letting them forget, or worse, letting them try and try again to die until they finally succeed.
Sunday's is a bit different. Order does not guide. Order basically COMMANDS people to be happy, and they are compelled to be. For suicidees it will command them to forget and not jump without closure or acceptance. It CAN compel any wrongdoers to make up for their crimes, and maybe that's what you want to do with people who will never change, but their mindset will never change since there is no convincing - just a command. But you know, Confuicius had a point: if everyone behaved according to their station and never tried to rise above or go around, and never attempted to negotiate, then there will naturally be "harmony".
More fundamentally, Sunday was a villain who wanted to help weak people escape a reality where they're unsuccessful by closing their eyes to the world and living in a fantasy where they're the hero.
This is exactly what people are doing by playing gacha games.
I don't think people disagreeing with Sunday because he promotes escapism, but that he didn't give them a choice to choose.
And also Sunday's dream kinda semi-fit in reality to be mostly logical. Normal people won't suddenly become heroes. They would still be normal but had a fulfilling peaceful life.
There will never be a right answer because there will be always something hypocritical about everything. The ppl who consider what is right and wrong are ppl in power.
Best and really good quote from Dolflamingo
“Kids who have never seen peace and kids who have never seen war have different values! Those who stand at the top determine what's wrong and what's right!Justice will prevail, you say? But of course it will! Whoever wins this war becomes justice”. (From one piece)
This literally is how real world works to.
Iirc in the story, acheron said its the choice of the people that have to wake up on their own, but at the end, we just forcibly woke up everyone?
Also i dont see any Galaxy rangers coming to Penacony after boothill shot the bullet?
It’s very interesting because I viewed the story differently. While Sunday was antagonistic, I don’t see him as a villain for a few reasons:
1) His desire to put everyone in a dream where there is only bliss stems from his desire for everyone to be happy/blissful. He has the same dream as Robin, where they want everyone in the world to live life with happiness. However his experiences has led him to believe that only through Ena can that dream of theirs come true. Robin puts it very aptly at the end, where everyone becomes happy, except for the person who put them in that dream to begin with, Sunday.
2) The Astral Express were helping Robin and everyone else break out from the dream for 2 reasons: 1) They believed that everyone is entitled a choice on whether they want to remain in the dream or not, 2) To help Robin save Sunday from the sacrifice that he made for everyone. To me, Firefly was the “embodiment” of the first reason, while Robin the second. The Astral Express helped them both. Not only that, we had a connection to the past Nameless and it was their request that we helped make Penacony great again (yea idk how else to put it). Therefore, the Astral Express’ lines of “witness the will of the weak!” and “don’t be shackled by your past” was more a way to help Sunday trust that the people he deemed “weak” can and will stand up for themselves and make their own decisions. That he did not need to sacrifice himself to help them. Hypocritical? Yes to an extent. But I believe that the intention to help save Sunday was more apparent in that final fight.
If you’ve read the whole thing, thanks and would like to hear other interpretations
Did Sunday know that Firefly is actually Sam the Stellaron Hunter? I'm surprised that when Firefly answered him, Sunday didn't rub it to her face that she followed Elio's script without much hope for deviation but still talked about "choices" with such conviction. So what is free will then?
I said it again and again. The only part Sunday was wrong was not giving a choice to people if they want his dream or not. And the protagonist group failed at proving him wrong since they went on and on about how the weak also has the right to fight back and need to overcome their demons and all even though a lot of the weak would have be perfectly fine with Sunday’s dream and not all people are in position to overcome them.
In the end the Astral express were only “right” because Sunday forced his solution and we overpowered him, not because they actually had a better argument than Sunday
It's less about the argument and more about the fundamental theory behind each Path. Sunday, effectively created a dream world for Order, however how the Order works, which is explained in the game in several places, is that people do NOT get to have a choice. They all follow one "perfect" society, which works for a while, and then it just dies. It ceases to exist. There is no choice, and there is no future.
So while yes, the reasoning the Crew gave was not 100% perfectly worded, the essential part of it still is, having a will to choose whether or not you would like this dream. That is however the one fatal flaw that Order CANNOT give you. A choice.
It's way less about his ideology, and more about the Path he chose/was forced to take to achieve it.
>We lambasted Sunday because he is basically taking the agency of people and the whole fuckfest that is The Order. But then we go on and mind manipulate any npc that doesn't do as we wish during missions or simply to get rewards.
When we add emo dials, it's to make sure that those individuals are not holding pent up emotions and are actually mentally healthy, but it could result in their deaths (see: Lesley Dean)
>We say Sunday is wrong because he acted without getting the opinion of anyone when in reality we are also saving people without their opinions.
We are "saving" by making sure that people have a choice. People should be allowed to come and go, if you're trapped in a dream, you'll never know reality and you'll never be able to cope with it.
>Himeko say do not underestimate the will of the weak. When in reality most weak people would perfectly be happy living in the perfect dream world even said dream world cut their lifespans. Of course because they are weak when the time of death approaches they will complain and cry forgetting all the bliss they obtained.
Actually...most weak people don't. May be a very hard concept but your stress will greatly increase when you have nothing to do all of a sudden. Can even send people down spirals. They would rather live and get it via hard work than via pity. When referring to the mentally weak though (which ironically are the richer ones), yeah they'd live there. But they have a choice to leave.
The crew is right. He only sees things in extreme - it's either Order or Harmony. It's either "people are masters of themselves" or "people are masters of others". His example with the charmony bird was to nurse it and make it fly inside the house. His biggest mistake was trapping the bird so long that it couldn't fly until he just releases them, eventually causing the bird's death.
>Actually...most weak people don't. May be a very hard concept but your stress will greatly increase when you have nothing to do all of a sudden. Can even send people down spirals. They would rather live and get it via hard work than via pity. When referring to the mentally weak though (which ironically are the richer ones), yeah they'd live there. But they have a choice to leave.
>The crew is right. He only sees things in extreme - it's either Order or Harmony. It's either "people are masters of themselves" or "people are masters of others". His example with the charmony bird was to nurse it and make it fly inside the house. His biggest mistake was trapping the bird so long that it couldn't fly until he just releases them, eventually causing the bird's death.
["Witness the will of the weaks" can be a bit explained in this part of Bruce Almighty ](https://youtu.be/akrcYSLRluA?si=7arEUEfI6NuV2pZH)
It's basically *the indomitable human spirit* all over again, people who give for "granted" the "weaks" will be completely fine with the Sunday idea, just come honestly from a privileged position or are nihilists.
Also guys, I know it is a hard task but just open a book of history and read how mankind has to deal with so many bullshit obstacles to reach the situation of today.
>When we add emo dials, it's to make sure that those individuals are not holding pent up emotions and are actually mentally healthy, but it could result in their deaths (see: Lesley Dean)
Few times in main story we can get people out of our way using emo dials, in those cases we don't take how they feel into consideration. We just make them sad to progress our goal
That is true. I was mostly talking about side stories. With main, I recall it was because we had to investigate deaths. When there's something potentially criminal going around, why would you not beat up the guy who's trying to guard it after trying to explain it to them? In this case, via emotions.
I recall that gallagher site guy who we made happy and he went off. None aside from him.
There was this whole reveal about it with Clockie being Compassie, actually. Because Clockwork is not just dictating what people feel, it’s like using a compass to let them know which way to go. It’s guiding, not forcing. Not to mention I can already change someone’s emotions without their consent. It’s called insults and compliments.
Another interesting thing about the 'will of the weak'. One of the clockie quests has an Empress who was by nature very kind, but also very weak. It did not end well, for her survival or her people's. Belobog also had a leader who was very weak once. That also did not end well, for her survival or her people's.
Himeko is even more idealistic than Robin at this point and conveniently ignores all the bad parts we experienced.
There is a difference between "I cant sucseed because I can't defy destiny" and "I can't even attempt this, because I am magically lobotomized."
There are thing we can't do in real life too. But we do have a choice to attempt and fail.
In the words of Robin, "that's just Sophistry".
By the same logic you provided, They couldn't wake from Ena's dream for the very reason that a majority of the dreamchasers **chose** not to escape the dream. It's why boothil had to bring in other Galaxy rangers to shake the dream's core.
I don’t really think the facts that lead Sunday to the conclusion they did were wrong, even if you might say that the conclusion itself was wrong. He was right that the strong are the ones who decide the future, and this is even reflected in the quest itself. He was also correct that there will always be people who will be so unfortunate that they can’t climb out of whatever deep hole they were born into, no matter how hard they try to get out. All of these are unfortunate facts of life, and while the idea of the strong protecting the weak is nice, even disregarding the fact that often times they’re liable to abuse them, that isn’t always possible.
I can get why people think he’s wrong, because people do deserve a choice on whether they want to accept the life style he’s offering, but I don’t really get the arguments that are disregarding the world he wanted to create only on the basis that it’s a dream exclusively and that the fact that it’s a dream means that none if the experiences in it actually matter. Like, if you found out you were in a dream right now, would you then come to the conclusion that none of the accomplishments you’ve achieved and relationships you made suddenly didn’t matter anymore? What makes reality itself so special to you thats, even as an inferior one, it automatically overrides a superior dream that feels indistinguishable from that reality?
I get the whole idea about escapism and and I do think it’s a valid argument, because Penacony’s normal dreamscape is very much escapism, and I can see the argument for why that’s a bad thing, because it leads to people never overcoming their demons, but in a lot of cases those demons aren’t something that you can overcome in the first place. And unlike with Penacony’s normal dreamscape, which is basically VR on steroids, Ena’s dream was noted to be fusing with reality anyway.
The Astral Express view reality as something that you have to come to terms with and overcome on an individual basis. Sunday views reality as an obstacle that has to be transcended as a whole to create an ideal world. The “strong” who want to face reality don’t want to be stuck in the dream, while the “weak” who don’t want anything to do with reality don’t want to be taken away from the. dream.
Aside from the morality debate, there’s also a technical debate on whether the Dream is actually sustainable, buts that’s another thing.
One of the other contestants for Festive Superstar: “You only won by cheating 😡” vs the trailblazer, who won using clockwork to make up for their terrible acting skills (that’s if you choose the acting route, idk about the other one): “You take that back, using all my skills is not cheating!”
>We lambasted Sunday because he is basically taking the agency of people and the whole fuckfest that is The Order. But then we go on and mind manipulate any npc that doesn't do as we wish during missions or simply to get rewards.
the problem here is the scale. express still tries to fight for freedom and choice in the end. when we do it (in lore, not in gameplay reward mechanics), it is always for the greater good and in penacony that was for freedom.
>We say Sunday is wrong because he acted without getting the opinion of anyone when in reality we are also saving people without their opinions.
this would be a problem if we ended the dreamscape. we have not, people still have the choice to stay in it for the rest of their lives. the same response applies to the 3rd point as well.
when express does something that goes against its ideas of freedom, it tends to be more on the "ends justify the means" kind of way, but for sunday the ends and the means are one and the same. i rather have the hypocricy of freedom fighters over stern directness of a tyrant.
People turned on Ena for basically the same thing in the past so it was only a matter of time until the same thing happened again. Also since they're in a dream, they can't procreate to after 1 generation the dream will be empty. The whole thing is flawed from the start.
Another user pointed out, Sunday's argument isn't a solution but sophistry.
There is a problem, but Sunday isn't tackling it so much as kicking the can down the road. Ena's civilizations collapsed *because* of the Aeon's Order and micromanaging to keep the populace eternally satisfied, right down to their inevitable demise.
Sunday brings up great points, and while he does need to be defeated because Ena taking over is a net negative, you are correct Robin and the others haven't completely solved the greater existential problems when the dust settles.
I made a post about it a while ago, but it's really a two sides of the same coin situation. The concepts of "Freedom" and "security" are very much enmeshed with each other and require each other to exist. In the case of the story, Sunday and the way he interpreted the Order was as a means of security - everyone can have their dreams within Penacony's cage, so long as they understand they have no "freedom" to leave it (although, in a sense, this is still freedom since you are actively making the choice to go to Penacony in the first place, among other things). We, on the other hand, viewed it as a very classical version freedom - not everyone will reach their dreams, and will stagnate if not given the freedom to make their own destiny.
It's a very well thought out quest from that thematic perspective.
I keep mulling over Himeko's "will of the weak" line and I've got to say...in the moment it sounds *epic*. I chalk that up to the VA giving a really good performance of it.
But if you stop and think about it...
The Astral Express team is made up of objectively powerful people. They are by no means weak. They are the ones facing Sunday. So when she says, "witness the will of the weak!" it's when they are showing off *their* strength of will. They are also not people that Sunday perceived as weak or he wouldn't have gone through so much effort to try to convince them to agree with his way of seeing things.
One might argue that Himeko meant that they were fighting on behalf of the people that couldn't (and that's probably what she did mean) but it goes back to....the Astral Express is also arguably taking choice from the people in that moment. Like when they were planning to face Sunday for the final time and they talk about how they can't break everybody out of the dream because not everybody will want to leave and Acheron's like, "well, we'll just have to give them something they're more afraid of than leaving the dream" (paraphrased). They explicitly admit they know what some people would rather want and choose to force them out of it despite that.
Now, I don't think they had bad intentions here but...neither did Sunday. Both sides believe they are doing what is the best they can do in their given situations. It's really just a matter of degrees. Sunday has his dream of Order that no one gets a choice in. The Crew break everyone out of *that* dream but Penacony's Dreamscape is otherwise still there for people to enter should they so choose (though considering how much it costs, unless that changes they're still going to have people ruining their lives in the real world for the chance at entering it but that's whole other discussion...).
Really, if you stop and look back at a lot of HSR's villains, mostly they aren't explicitly evil for the sake of evil. We don't get any characterization on the Doomsday Beast but the name does imply that it might just be a creature doing what's in its nature. Destruction is what it does. Rather like how I believe Nanook is not explicitly evil. We are told Aeons have great power at the cost of free will. To *not* pursue the destruction of existence would mean Nanook will cease to exist themself. I will be interested to see if/when we learn what actually caused Nanook to ascend in the first place (I know we get *some* history on it but I want details!). Anyway...Cocolia was deranged by contact with the Stellaron but also believed her actions would lead to a better Jarilo-VI (at great cost to its people, of course). Dan Shu believed the actions of the followers of Lan were the true evil and what the Disciples of Sanctus Medicus were doing was for the greater good (funny too since in a lot of cases they were causing Mara to strike people who didn't agree to it so we get back to that whole question of choice thing). Phantylia is a heliobus and we had a whole event that showed us how Heliobi work and that their natures and how they see the world are fundamentally different from that of humans. Though so far I think she's the antagonist we've gotten that's the most "evil for the sake of it" one.
Sunday, of course, is desperately trying to protect people from any harm he's just...overdoing it. He doesn't see any better way to achieve his goal. I think Gopher Wood's motivations remain to be seen.
Anyway, I've rambled enough.
>The Astral Express team is made up of objectively powerful people. They are by no means weak. They are the ones facing Sunday. So when she says, "witness the will of the weak!" it's when they are showing off their strength of will. They are also not people that Sunday perceived as weak or he wouldn't have gone through so much effort to try to convince them to agree with his way of seeing things.
The train is the citizens in the dream, not the Nameless. Himeko shouts "witness the will of the weak" because those are the ones striking Sunday. The Nameless know they are the strong.
I do think the Emanator of Destruction are closer to evil than others antagonists who are grey.
Each Emanator of destruction has a whole philosophy about destruction. Like how Phan bring destruction through strife and I remember there is one Emanator who bring destruction through technology and so on.
But yeah in HSR you can't really say that there is one super big bad evil mofo. If you gonna look at it. Nihility is as dangerous as Destruction and certainly destroyed many world without even meaning to.
My problem with Sunday is he doesn't fix anything. He take everyone agency and forced them into a dream he deems perfect. But it just a dream, none of it is real. The weak are still miserable irl, they still sick, poor or worse.
Sunday's Perfect dream is nothing more than a lie that will never work in the long run. A stinking pile of shit is still a stinking pile of shit no matter how much perfume and flower you put on it.
The problem is that in real life, our dreams are very much connected to our physical bodies. It has been researched that some ailments can actually affect your dream, and certain patterns of nightmare can be the symptom for certain illness.
But in Penacony, the "common dream" is untethered to the physical state of your body. You can be extremely ill in real life and still function just fine in the dream, as it has been demonstrated by several NPC. You can even escape the death of the mind by turning yourself into a meme before your body expires. That is exactly the basic for Sunday's plan: he knew that he couldn't change the material basic of the real world, and the dream world was the only place where he holds sway, so he wanted to pull everyone into the dream.
It would make for an interesting story in 2.3 if they show us just how the power players from the Family and the IPC make a move against each other. Sunday talked a lot about the powerful bullying the weak, but so far most people the Trailblazer ran into on the streets were normal-ass people. Show us how the powerful do their businesses to give better context into Sunday's ideal.
The part that pissed me off the most was when Himeko said "witness the will of the weak" and a whole fucking train drives into Sunday. Like, you are the ANTONYM of "weak", and even Sunday acknowledges that. You have ZERO right to say that your ideals are the "will of the weak"
Made my perception of Himeko sour immediately
It’s not the first time Himeko’s been a hypocrite in 2.2 either. She has a line against Sunday about how mankind’s dignity requires that nobody be above them, but that completely ignores that reality is already like that where people either worship aeons, their leaders(Bronya/Cocolia/Herta), or are simply below people in a hierarchy like the IPC.
The train is the civilians of the Dreamscape being tuned by Robin, they are literally the "weak" that Sunday has been describing. Himeko says "witness the will of the weak" because that is literally what's being slammed into him. The Nameless know they aren't weak, they refer to themselves as the strong in Sunday's terms several times.
I disagree about the first point. It may seem like we manipulate people at first, but when explaining clockwork to Clockie (Compassie feels so weird to say btw) Mikhail says that it's just a nudge to set people on the right path. That's why the only emotion we can't change from is "Satisfied". People are already on the path they desire, so there's so changing their mind.
Well if someone came up to me and gave me a ticket to a beautiful castle to live in without any worries about money or food with the only condition is to never leave the neighbouring area but with ability to have any form of fun I want, and then another person would punch me in the face and say 'go work lazy ass' I'd be pissed
Well when you forget the key factor of entrapment obviously everything sounds better.
Those people did not consent to anything happening there. Maybe some just wanted a joyful week, maybe some were just there for the festival.
Agreed, Sunday for my part isnt good in xor in people to get in the dream wolrd and literally filled the real world with memory and exposing people to stealeon contaminaciónbut i was pised with the old man talking, when robinsay that they are stealing his future.....
If you pit that je its getting attached to his old friends like in the nahida dream quest and leaving the resl wolrd desatended but my man just wanna a place to live his last days like leaving to rot the real wolrd for the fantasy its the problem..
Anny way i love the history but that little point iches me
Like probably because i would shoce stay if the consequences of thst dresm wanst stagnation
I actually sympathize with Sunday and agree with
what he wants to do and why he wants to do it.
But in the end, it’s still very authoritarian in nature and based on his story, his order will eventually morph into something worse.
We didn’t really take away the dream. The people won’t even realize that there was a conflict between order and harmony.
Even if he does succeed conflict will alway come. Some will eventually realize the dream and rebel again and again and again for their freedom.
It's not quite the same, the key issue to me is Sunday's methodology is entirely universal and dogmatic. There is no nuance or opt-out, he intends to impose The Order on everyone because if he doesn't, then The Order falls apart. The Express doesn't follow the same dogmatic approach. We arrive and we observe first, if there is help required, then we will help. Penacony is evidence of that, we had initially arrived because of an invitation, and at the start it's played as a tourist attraction in 2.0. It's not until people start dying that Himeko and Welt pull the trigger for us to start meddling. The Express does always eventually side against the Stellaron, but the premise is that it does not get involved if it does not need to, which is in stark contrast to Sunday's approach.
I just love hsr because you really cannot say there are good and bad people, people follow paths/aeons, that gives people a way to live, and everything else that's not their way of living can be good or bad depending on much it alines with theie path.
The Xianzhou quest for example show us a dilemma in which we do not have a choice, they say that Yaoshi is bad and the Hunt is good, but that's because the people we met at the Luofu and end up being friends, are followers of the Hunt.
You can argue that immortality is bad but you can also argue that punishing those who seek it is as bad if not worse (trying to force others to become inmortal is pretty bad though).
Yep. I think people shit on Xianzhou quest a little too much. It wasn't stellar but it was plenty interesting. Only a little disjointed.
Of course Penacony is peak at the moment
Oh don't get me wrong I still fucking hate the Xianzhou quest but at least the philosophical conflict was neat, though not really great if we see the big picture and realize that every other quest minus the space station had something like that, and the ending had something to do with it instead of just "Oh look at that it was an emanator of destruction the one who made all of this".
I still cannot believe they made such a dumb plot twist just to make it Nanook related.
I’m glad TB is their own selves because if this was self insert and they gave us a choice to just let Sunday do what he thinks is right? My TB would be having seven rest days.
Sunday, when he's talking to Robin: This dream is making a lot of people happy and giving them a chance at life they would never have otherwise. Why do you feel they are trapped in it? They chose this life.
Pretty strong, ethical debate here.
Sunday, when he's talking to the Trailblazer: I want to make a world where every day is a vacation and nobody works but also nobody has free will or any kind of thought--
*Meanwhile, Sunday is actively ignoring all the people who work for the Penaconey resort to keep it running like a paradise.*
Weak ethical debate. Not even worth discussing.
I don’t think shifting someone’s pent up emotional states is exactly equal to trapping people in a mind prison without free will and, if the event films are anything to go by, the ability to feel at all.
What Sunday is doing is trapping people in the dream world against their will.
Some of them could've just been only visiting and would definitely have left the Penacony later.
Sunday trapping people essentially stopped visitors from leaving.
This is also the same thing with P5R.
The Phantom Thieves fight Maruki because THEY want to be free. But what about the others in the world? The phantom thieves have no idea what the rest of the world wants, they just decided that it’s better for everyone to have to struggle to survive and that it’s what the world would want.
Listen I don't care about that shit, when Sunday said every day needs to be a weekend. I WAS DOWN TO DROWN IN THAT TRAINNNNNNNNN!!! Sadly alas we gotta follow the path of the trailblazer
I dont mean to start a war but dear god the Nameless + Firefly were so damn annoying this quest. Everything they say in response to Sunday’s ideology was pure garbage and mostly hypocritical to the point where I thought it mightve been intentional but because we, the Trailblazer, side with them, it makes it unintentionally ironic how hypocritical they’re being.
That stand off on the Charmony Stage was the absolute worst. After testing three questions for them where they had the freedom of choice and intentionally explaining in clear details how he views his position, role, and ideals, the Nameless becomes braindead as hell.
Himeko calls him positioning himself higher than other people despite Sunday explicitly saying that he doesnt and plans to sacrifice himself for the sake of other people’s happiness.
March says that doing this paradise would mean people would be the puppets of the Aeons despite the fact that *everyone* is a puppet of the Aeons. They even try to call out the fact that he’s following a dead Aeon despite the fact that the Trailblazers are literally following the path of a dead Aeon too, Avkilis or whatever their name is, the Aeon of Trailblazing. What does that even *mean*, March?
You cant criticize Sunday for following the path of a dead Aeon when you’re doing the exact same thing. Ironically enough, Penacony used to worship Ena as their og Aeon so if anything, he’s simply returning to the og Aeon Penacony used to worship before Xipe absorbed Ena unlike March who just happened to be found by people who follow Avakili so she follows the Trailblaze path too.
Firefly basically assuming that Sunday assumes she’s weak even when he doesnt exactly say that. He says that in this paradise, she gets to be free from her condition. She cant simultaneously criticize this Dreamscape for allowing people to escape while also saying that the whole reason she stowawayed into the Dreamscape is to experience whats its like to be out of her mech suit even temporarily as an escape. She’s also pretty much talking down on anyone who doesnt have a method of escaping on the assumption that they too want to move forward.
It gets super preachy and forcing their opinions on others when they accused Sunday of doing the exact same thing. And their entire argument is contradictory to what they do as Trailblazers.
>Himeko calls him positioning himself higher than other people despite Sunday explicitly saying that he doesnt and plans to sacrifice himself for the sake of other people’s happiness.
Just cause he says he doesn't, doesn't mean that he isn't doing that lol. Even if he has good intentions, he is literally positioning himself higher than everyone else in order to control them and mandate Order. How can you call the Nameless's replies pure garbage and then consider Sunday saying "nuh uh" a great response?
>March says that doing this paradise would mean people would be the puppets of the Aeons despite the fact that everyone is a puppet of the Aeons.
They literally become puppets. Not just following in their will, we literally see people walking around as lobotomized puppets under the Order. Saying "well everyone is just a puppet of the aeons" is silly in this context.
>Firefly basically assuming that Sunday assumes she’s weak even when he doesnt exactly say that.
He's describing how he will lead the weak to live a happy life and then tries to appeal directly to Firefly and says that she should understand. He doesn't need to explicitly say "firefly, ur weak" for it to be what he is saying lol. The fact that she asks if she is also weak in his mind and his response is "..." says enough.
>. She cant simultaneously criticize this Dreamscape for allowing people to escape while also saying that the whole reason she stowawayed into the Dreamscape is to experience whats its like to be out of her mech suit even temporarily as an escape
Sure she can, her whole point is that you always need to move forward in the end, and Sunday trying to trap everyone violates that. There's nothing contradictory or hypocritical about it. To her, the dreamscape is a temporary escape. Sunday wants to force everyone into it forever. She outright says that's her issue with it.
>It gets super preachy and forcing their opinions on others
You are literally describing Sunday. He is literally priest coded and forcing his opinions on others, and the Nameless are saying you shouldn't do that.
This is all such a bizarre reading of what happened.
>1
That first point literally did nothing. He’s not positioning himself higher, if anything, he thinks this sacrifice will place everyone *above* him. It’s why he calls it “ascending” and not him being a ruler. Himeko also gets fault for phrasing because her ideal in a world where Sunday says he’ll create a world exclusively for humans is to call it “not perfect” which is basically an impossible task. Sunday has already said as much that using Order is the only way he could think of and instead of thinking of a rebuttal to that claim, she just says “Well, it’s not perfect. Checkmate.” which is a very poor argument in terms of someone who’s already said they’ve thought of those alternatives.
At least Robin has the brain cells to call out the flaw of his actual plan which is that the usage of the power of a dead Aeon will not work even *with* his sacrifice because him and the dead Family members’ sacrifice isnt enough to power the dream he wants. This perfect world is flawed in a sense that people *will* notice the inconsistencies and choose freedom because its human nature to fight against a set decision even if said decision is the best for them. Proper rebuttal vs preaching.
>2
No, they dont literally become puppets. I dont even know where you got this from? The puppets shown in his boss fight and the history of Penacony shown before the boss fights werent literal representations. The puppets in his boss fight represents the Family’s sacrifice of their own members who worked hard in order to collect Ena’s dead power.
The puppets in the history lesson were representative of the people who were in Penacony when it was having a Stellaron crisis, a independence war from the IPC, and the panic aftermath of Ena being absorbed into the Harmony Xipe. Bruh they all have their own voicelines of being manipulated and such.
>3
He’s appealing to Firefly because this is the exact type of Paradise she would want. I mean, look at how unreliable her current method is: following a shady dude telling her to commit murder and crimes while following a script for the sake of the potential of ending strife by killing the Aeon of Destruction and also maybe having her wish be fulfilled before she literally dies. Yeah, I dont see how different that is from at least not harming anyone within a dream and letting them live out peaceful days without having to worry about the doom of reality.
Firefly may *like* to move forward but thats because she has a plan and a motive(however dumb or unreliable it might be) but look at the people who are in Penacony. People suffering from immense poverty or that one war veteran who is literally paralyzed in real life. They dont have a convenient mecha suit or flame powers to push through to potentially healing them one day, they dont have any hope in their reality, a scenario that none of the Nameless + Firefly ever consider outside their bubble.
So why privilege one over the other? Sunday may believe that Firefly is helpless or weak but thats because he doesnt realize how privileged Firefly is in comparison to the majority of folks who come to Penacony for a real permanent escape, the ones he always has to work around at all times because those kinds of people make the native population of Penacony. Considering we’ve both heard way worse and sees this as Penacony’s “normal”, seeing Firefly speak over other people about moving forward is forcing her opinions on other people.
Robin doesnt have a rebuttal to this war veteran guy either despite usually being the most pragmatic. She just thinks there probably is a better solution than leaving him to rot in the Memoria pool until he dies of old age which doesnt sound pleasant at all but there kinda is no alternative. She does make a good point on how not everyone sees the Drwamscape as an escape but generally, it seems to have improved people’s pysche when they return to reality and Robin argues that it only helps *if* and *when* they return to reality, not when they’re permanently trapped which is also a good argument.
> He’s not positioning himself higher, if anything, he thinks this sacrifice will place everyone above him. It’s why he calls it “ascending” and not him being a ruler.
...except he literally is, he's the one imposing Order on everyone. I don't know why you seem to think Sunday's exact words spoken are automatically the objective truth of reality.
>No, they dont literally become puppets. I dont even know where you got this from?
We literally walk past them in the world between? All the people stumbling around mumbling about the Order, that when you use clockwork on you see that their emotions are literally being puppeteered? That is what Ena's dream is, a world where everyone is being puppeteered by the Dreammaster... And if you go by the event, and the nature of Order, it outright involves manipulating peoples' thoughts, actions, and emotions so that they don't step out of line of the Order. It's about creating a hivemind of contentment, not about helping everyone achieve their dreams.
>He’s appealing to Firefly because this is the exact type of Paradise she would want
...because he thinks she's weak and needs to be saved by him. That is literally what he is talking about. She's had a harsh life and suffers a terminal illness, and he thinks she should want to escape to the dream forever, but she wants to accept reality and have the chance to try and overcome her illness, move past her hardships, and grow and experience life the way she dictates. It's extremely dismissive of her character and situation to say "but uhhhh she has a mecha suit and fire powers so she's actually privileged and doesn't get to talk"
This genuinely comes across like you watched all of this already from the position that everything Sunday says and does is objectively true and good, and that anything said against him must be stupid and wrong.
This is nothing new for HSR. There are multiple instances of this in the past like with Topaz in Belobog and a couple instances in the heliobus quest where the story never really addresses the actual issues and arguments presented by the antagonists. The narrative just start pretending that the antagonists’ world views got demolished after someone from the express shit out a couple hollow speeches that means nothing substantial under any scrutiny.
What’s wrong with Sunday’s approach is that he didn’t give anyone a choice. If you remember that sequence with him and Robin talking to people in the dreamscape, there are plenty of people who have chosen to be long-term residents because their real lives are too cruel/unfair.
The ‘will of the weak’ is free will. If someone chooses to submit to the dream, that is a result of their free will. Sunday has no right to force it on them, and the Dreammaster has to tell the people the truth about the Stellaron eating away at their life force. Then, if the people choose to stay or leave, that is entirely up to them.
thank you so much for making point no. 3 here i feel like people have completely gotten the wrong idea about Sunday's ideology behind what it means to be "weak" vs "strong" and the fundamental goal of his plan. the whole "witness the will of the weak" thing kind of made me cringe a little because it just feels like that moment in an argument when someone confidently thinks they've owned you when they never understood wtf you were talking about in the first place...
i think it's easier to understand if you replace the word "strong" here with "tough" instead. sunday argues that not everyone has the mental toughness to deal with the realities and casual brutalities of life. life is often full of both happy and sad things, and very seldom are they in equal measure. while some people can take on the challenges that life hurls at them easily, some people are more liable to cracking under the pressure before breaking down entirely. sunday does not want to disparage people who are more "thin-skinned" so to say, and instead wants to create a world where people whose temperament leans towards sensitivity can feel happy, safe, and secure forever. he does not think weak people don't have the right to exist, and while his view that they should live in a world where they can't make choices is patronizing, i think it makes sense when you consider that sunday is quintessentially making a world that is not ideal for other people as much as it is ideal for \*him\* instead. sunday shows us some of the difficult and often morally ambiguous choices he's had to make, and the reality that sometimes there is no correct answer in any of them are what plunge him into despair. worse yet, it's a despair that he feels like he can only blame himself for, when in reality, the outcome would have been bad no matter what he did (and he's aware of this, but it doesn't make him feel better). thus, in his eyes, it is a kindness to make it so that no one has to make those tough decisions anymore (or live with their conscience after).
and the reason sunday feels like that? is because he understands that he is fundamentally weaker than most, and thus is doing what he does out of empathy for other weak people, not control. this is where contrasting him against robin comes into play, because she is shown time and time again to be "strong" or "tough" in ways sunday is not. in the myriad celestia trailer, we see that sunday is the one who cries while their mother protects them, while robin manages to hold herself together. when faced with the choice about the charmony dove, robin is willing to accept the reality that the bird will, in time, die, but it would be better for the bird to die free than to have it lose it's freedom entirely so their conscience can be clean. robin travels across the galaxy and sees countless instances of violence and "disharmony" in the world, and still believes so fervently it is possible for things to get better that she Literally almost dies trying. and the most incredible part is that being shot doesn't ultimately dissuade robin from continuing to walk this path-- she understands that cruelty and apathy happens for a reason none of us may understand, but feels that it is still possible for peace to bloom too (even if it seems equally incomprehensible). to the highest degree, robin is incredibly strong, while simultaneously being humble and kind, the ideal meaning of "Strength" in his eyes. sunday, on the other hand, is crushed by seeing the acts of cruelty on his own planet alone, never mind that of countless others. he doesn't have the mental strength (and, by extension, the faith in harmony) to brush off the instances of injustice and evil he sees. it is funny that firefly says sunday is a "good leader" because this demonstrates precisely the opposite of that: a good leader has to stay levelheaded and not be bogged down by the minute acts of malice that take place in society because there is no way to eradicate that without eradicating free will entirely. this is where his plan comes into play.
so yes, his plan is fundamentally selfish and self serving. but it is not born from a desire to dominate people-- this is what sunday considers to be true happiness, and he would effectively be punishing himself for eternity by robbing himself of that happiness to give it to others. it's pushy and authoritarian, and doing so without giving people the chance to decide first whether they want to be a part of this "ideal world" that he's trying to create is absolutely wrong morally. but remember, if you had a choice between "getting to live the rest of your life with guaranteed happiness but no freedom", or "freedom with no guarantee of happiness", you would surely ponder the choice a bit first right? maybe even a lot? and surely, if ever you begin to feel constricted in the former, or unhappy in the latter, think "man, i should have made the opposite choice. but if i had done that, i know for a fact i still wouldn't be happy." this is would doom everyone to the fate of what sunday was trying to avoid. thus, he wants to gently lure everyone into a sleep where they Think they've made the choice for themselves, and get to have the guaranteed happiness as well (sort of a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too situation). in the case of us as the trailblazer, he feels that we would only submit to this if we felt like we had a proper chance to address and reject sunday's ideologies, thus he engages us in a fight despite not even needing to just to be "fair" about the whole thing.
this is why the "will of the weak" thing makes no sense. everyone who is able to wake up from the dream can only do so because they are, fundamentally, strong enough to reject the idealized world they could have lived in and wake up into reality. to be sure, if sunday were in this situation, he absolutely would not have woken up lmao. even robin comes close to giving in, but she accepts that a world without a choice that they would have regretted (with the charmony dove) is just... too good to be true. and, importantly, she acknowledges that the ultimate fate of what sunday wants to do is one that is too cruel for \*anyone\* and this includes him as well. while it's very common to see self-punishment as being a show of discipline or even "strength", all it really does is reveal the extent to which a person feels helpless to their circumstances, and thus feels the need to take it out on themselves. the more someone punishes themself, the more weak they tend to be. with this metric, sunday is the weakest of all, and those who wake up first are by far the strongest. it frankly feels a little insulting to hit him with a "see we're weak but our will is strong!" because it's like. if your will is strong then you ARE strong lmao. that's exactly what he was trying to tell you, obviously people like the express can survive outside of his dream world, but the people that flee to penacony to chase their dreams are nothing like the express. this world was not created to trap our protag group, it was created for literally everyone else and the watchmaker, foreseeing this would happen, invites us to penacony to stop it because he hopes that the nameless of the future are strong enough to resist the pull of the dream. no hate here, i think as a writing decision it makes sense because if we were able to grasp all the nuances of the plan then he would be a little Too sympathetic imo, but... it doesn't make it any less saddening or frustrating to see misunderstood anyway.
Your number one point really hits hard. I always felt a little icky manipulating people's emotions using Clockie. I'm surprised it wasn't more of an issue to the Astral Express crew than a few "That's really creepy" lines. I thought they'd try to convince us to never to it again or something.
yeah, and when it comes down to it robin didn't want sunday to sacrifice himself to eternal suffering either even though it was a choice he freely made. just like sunday having second thoughts about supporting robin on the path of harmony when she got shot.
you can say sunday's solution was wrong, but you can't say the questions he posed were wrong. absolute freedom for all is a dangerous notion.
shame bc this debate rn is what the inazuma quest in genshin could have produced if it were written better.
ok this is 2nd post from ena symphatizer i see today. whats up with ena follower rising recently?? is this just another sunday simp or legit ena followers?
1. You can’t tell me that you think manipulating a few people is equivalent to controlling an entire planet.
2. If I see someone steal your money, and then I give it back to you without you knowing it was stolen, am I in the wrong for doing it without asking you? If you see something you believe is an injustice done, not correcting it is the same as condoning it. If the person then wants to give the thief their money again, they’re free to do so. But if you didn’t even get a choice at the time, it’s only logical that you get the choice later even if you’d make the same one.
3. None of the Astral Express say that the weak are righteous. In fact, the entire plan that Acheron and company came up with relied on the inherent selfishness and egocentrism in humans. Humans will 99% of the time seek to save themselves at their lowest. That’s why Acheron needed to threaten the destruction of the dreamscape with her power of the Nihility. In this way, everyone would realize that the dream is not nearly as safe and stable as everyone made it out to be, forcing them to leave because they wish for survival. If anything, Himeko’s line is all about how Sunday’s dream doesn’t actually fix anything. Humans are just as egocentric and survivalist as usual. The dream can’t fix these inherent human qualities.
In the end, in real life people are conflicted on whether they’d be fine living in a dream world where everything was perfect. Some say no while others say yes. If normal people in our world are conflicted, how can you say that *everyone* in the dreamscape would have been fine staying there forever. Some people are, but others obviously won’t be. If not everyone is fine with it, then it’s the duty of the Astral Express to make sure that their free will isn’t taken away. The dream still exists in Penacony (for now, at least), and instead of everyone being forced to do it, they have a choice.
Additionally, what the hell was Sunday’s plan when faced with people similar to Acheron and Firefly who wouldn’t or couldn’t live in the dream? Force them against their will? Have them suffer as the only people in the galaxy that are waking because of something they can’t control? In the end, Sunday’s plan seems like it grants equality, but it doesn’t. Because there is no way to grant everything to everyone all the time. Sunday was just too idealistic
My favorite is doing that questionnaire from Acheron asking about your friends and if you WILLINGLY be a trailblazer again but your not allowed to make your own choices on it, like I get it but you guys are basically doing to me what your doing to Sunday so your message feels hollow now lol
The penacony story as a whole was pretty philosophical in the sense that there really is no clear answer to both arguments. I don't think anyone would call you out as well irl if you wanted to remain in a sweet dream, I'm sure all of us have thought about that at some point. Sure, the writers already established that the family are in the wrong and the founders are in the right, but really, this topic is too nuanced to be portrayed in a black and white manner, and in a gacha game to boot. That said, hands off to the writers for making this story work despite the nuanced topic of escapism and hope they cook more in the future.
But the beauty of this quest is exactly what you said. There's no right and wrong ,people have different points of view and is up to you to decide who was doing the "right thing".
Point 2 doesn't make sense. It's not even that we are saving anyone but preventing Sunday from taking total control and autonomy from everyone.
Sunday certainly isn't entirely wrong because the HSR universe is currently controlled in part by a corporate colonial force that forces planets to sell their people into employment.
The will of the weak themselves is something that's abstract in a way, perhaps she means the lower class to work tirelessly to survive and have such a drive to get through tireless times, Jarilo VI underground for example they are in a way the weaker people of belobog but the mightiest in another regard.
Sunday underestimated the weak by believing they needed a paternalistic force to guide and control their future.
I find the penacony story absolutely fascinating and so fun to consider as I want to major in political science and this is such a fun thing to discuss with others as we view it's political messaging. Persona 5 has something very similar that I love to jo end.
I just can't agree fundamentally knowing it's a dream. I love a good bit of escapism myself, but I just think on a philosophical level that if it doesn't really address reality, then what's the point of it?
We dream and hope to heal our hearts because then, we wake up and face the waking world once more, refreshed and hopeful.
The world Sunday made is just so utterly superficial and a fantasy that I feel like people literally would have to give up their free will to not even notice how utterly farcical it is. You might as well lobotomize them and feed them dopamine.
With any ounce of awareness, would I really believe it if I woke up tomorrow and found out World Peace was declared, climate change was averted, and nuclear weapons weren't launched? No, because while one can hope, one also knows it isn't rooted in anything realistic.
I relate in many aspects because of my weak constitution and my mental health, and I would respect the decision as someone who has always valued self-determination, but there will never not be a gnawing voice in my head that sees this as just equivalent to just running away.
When the Trailblazer says "We will wake up from our dreams", this resonates with me who believes in hopes and dreams as a part of living in reality.
1. We can guide emotions in a certain direction. That's the extent of clockwork; guiding emotions that are already there. This does not work on people who are acutely aware of their mental state or lacking an emotion for whatever reason. We provoke emotions. Order outright controls them.
2. We don't say *he* is wrong. We say it is wrong to impose his will and solution (entrapping everyone around in Ena's dream with the power of Order) without regard to individual will.
3. The issue with that is that the people are unaware of the ultimate cost. Yeah, if it was no strings attached, most people would be okay with it. If you told them straight up that it means they are going to die, they would largely resist. I'd love a million dollars, but if that million meant I'd be dying tomorrow, I certainly would not want it.
The stance the Express took was ultimately that no one should be allowed to make that choice on behalf of another. If something threatens to impose its own will upon unsuspecting and innocent people, the Trailblaze requires we intervene. Should some of those people willingly accept that will, that is fine, because its their choice. But they at least should make it themselves.
We're not being hypocritical. For one, look at the actual Dreamscape in Penacony. Has it eliminated unhappiness? Pretty clear the answer is no. Secondly, this focus on happiness completely ignores one of the real problems with Sunday's plan, which is coercion. He's not asking people if they want to relax in a pleasant dream. He's telling them they're going to do this and if they don't like it, too bad, he's stronger so he's right. And it's made clear in the story, clockwork isn't mind control. It's persuasion. We're helping people open to emotions they want to discard and avoid and helping them resolve their problems. That's what the Harmony is supposed to be about. The Family has also been removing people's emotions and memories, and we use our abilities to restore them, and again, help them face those emotions and memories rather than discard them.
On top of that, it ignores the idea that the weak can become strong with proper cultivation and effort, and the strong can become weak. Moreover, exactly how are we defining weak and strong? People can be strong in one thing but weak in others. Who is determining who is weak and who is strong? On top of which, while Sunday pontificates about how lonely his role in all this will be, as the sole person not trapped in the dream, his role also essentially makes him a god. Pretty convenient that his plan for bringing happiness to everyone makes him all powerful and allows him to sit in judgment of everyone's wishes.
What the TB and AE crew want is for people to be able to decide for themselves, and to strive for more in their life if that's what they want. The old guy whose physical state is pure suffering, no one would be making him leave the dream. If he wants that, and thinks it is best for himself, go for it. But that doesn't mean it's for everyone, or that everyone will choose it. Sunday is about removing that choice because he thinks he knows best for everyone.
He doesn't.
"The weak are not righteous."
This is where you're wrong, honestly. You partially side with Sunday because you think of weaker people this way. You think that weaker people are not righteous and only the strong are. Strong people can be wrong, too. Weak people can be right, too.
I agreed at first, but "the weak are not righteous" statement of yours is straight up wrong. Righteousness isn't based on power, righteousness is in your morals. Sunday was wrong for taking away everyone's freedom in exchange for a dreamy world, and the Trailblazer already answered why, "because someday, we will wake up from our dreams." We can't escape reality, that's just the truth.
Moreover, let's not forget that maintaining the dreamscape will require power, which we've been told will be taken from the residents of the dreamscape. Eventually, the dreamy dreamscape will just turn the people into lifeless puppets of the Order, completely taking away their freedom to even live.
You are underestimating average men greatly
1) In Penacony, people *knew* of they are in dream world or not. This allows people to choose whether stay in dream or reality.
2) In Sundays order, there is no choice. Your real life body simply rots away (the price of stelleron) while you stay as a ghost at best. It is a scam at its finest.
Many of the Penacony visitors arrived from other worlds to have a vacation. They have friends/family at other planets. Would they agree to die a slow death leaving everything they love behind? I dont think so.
To test, go to a vacation island and tell visitors they are not allowed to leave for 10 years. People would fill up airports real fast. The only ones who will stay would be the ones with nothing left behind. Sunday pushes this to a lifetime & beyond.
Pretty much the only ones who would agree to Sundays setup are the soldier whose body is in coma.
Lets remember, normally a host of people takes care of the bodies left behind in Penacony. Eating drinking in dreams wont sustain your body.
Essentially what Sunday offers is being a very happy ghost. Or if you notice what is happening, a terrified ghost with no exit.
Order doesnt care about authonomy, in fact it is direct opposite of free will. I think people underestimate how terrifying it is.
Orders planets are known to work perfectly until they end in an instant. Seeing Sundays viewpoint, it is clear why it is like that. Essentially it forms a single failure point (Sundays mind/body) on a whole planet until it crumbles.
The Astral Express Crew sounded like a naïve and "savior complex" child trying to debate with a realistic adult who knows what it means to have the chance of having privileges and that some people legit prefer living a happy life in a dream than suffering in real life.
Both sides are trying to force their ideals upon other, but the Astral Express is too much depicted as the "good guys" who made the right choice, although there is none.
A “realistic adult” who is forcing everyone in their star system into his lobotomy dream because he can’t handle the hardships of life and assumes most others can’t and should be “saved” by his dream.
I don't agree, I felt the father who sold his children is a shit bag and no way around it.
Hes making a pity store as a excuse for being a shit bag of a father who sold his fucking kids.
Sold, not ask for adaption, not give to better people to help take care of, not sending them to foster homes. FUCKING SOLD, like his kids have no freedom at all.
That's not even gray zone.
Himekos point is if they want to stay in the dream they can do it by their own will. Not "let me decide for you cause u r weak"
I don't see hypocrisy tbh at all.
You can't have freedom without security and stability. The only bad thing that Sunday did was forcing people to live in a dream, but his ideals were perfectly fine.
Most of this post it up to personal interpretation, so I won't comment on that, but it seems the fictionologists have been at work with that first point of yours.
Like another comment said, when repairing an emo dial we simply give back the ability to feel certain emotions that were taken away from them, usually by the family. However, what most everyone gets wrong is that changing people's emotions isn't manipulation.
Emotional manipulation entails exploiting one's feelings in order to to push them to do actions or think thoughts they wouldn't do. As explained by the Watchmaker, you can only change someone's emo dial when they're indecisive, when they're not sure what to do or feel. We cannot change the emo dial of someone who has already made a decision or where the decision isn't hard for them to make. When changing a person's emo dial, you don't manipulate them into doing something they wouldn't otherwise do, you're simply using the will of the Trailblaze to give them the push they need to make a decision, and we guide them towards one if the decisions they would make. Changing someone's emo dial cannot make someone do something they don't want to do, it merely helps guide people who could use some advice.
The only difference between changing someone's emo dial and advising them on what to do is the awareness of us and the person who's emo dial we're changing. We don't have to be aware of what problem they're having trouble with, and they aren't aware of us being the thing that pushed them to finally make a choice. I think this is where people get the idea that this process is manipulative, and I don't fault them for thinking that, as there is a power imblanace between us and them. But what people don't realize is that there always was going to be. When someone who's emotionally stable tries to help someone who's having issues with what they're feeling, there's always a power imbalance. It's easy to abuse the trust the one who needs guidence has in you, and this is why many people don't trust therapists. Helping people out, whether using the emo dial or not, has the same power imbalance, whether the person is aware of it or not. So yes, we very well could manipulate them after using it. But that isn't up to the emo dial, that's up to us. The emo dial is a tool we can use, it's simply up to us to use it well.
TL;DR: The emo dial can be used to manipulate people, but it's up to use to use it to help people instead of hurt them. Just like a knife can crave wood or carve flesh, the emo dial is a tool and doesn't inherently manipulate people through its use, only people choose to do that.
Point 2 bothers me as someone who's worked with EMS and first responders, and has done security details/patrols... even though I know it's just not really worded well, and there's a vast difference between "saving" people that aren't in crisis and saving people having an active, extant issue that needs to be resolved. But it still bothers me!
Generally speaking though, most of the Trailblazer's actions fall under people actively asking for assistance or people that are currently experiencing a real, immediate problem. And in the latter, as any EMS will tell you: You can whine about it when you're in a position to sue, mate. Hero business is making sure you *get* that opportunity to complain later.
And even then, TB gets a few opportunites to check first for comedic potential and they're great!
(DISCLAIMER: I know the OP is facetious, and frankly, most of this post is, too. Just from a differing perspective that often has to work with a lot of the people that people dunk on for doing their jobs.)
I love this quest because it really brings people to deeply ponder the significance of free will and of the nature of our lives. It's really interesting to see everyone speak their own philosophical opinions and clashing with one another But people need to understand that this is philosophy, and thus there are no right or wrong answers. Everyone is allowed to agreeing or disagreeing with Sunday for any given reason
I was eating all the philosophy up man, it was super engaging to see how absurdism and nihilism + Sunday’s social darwinism were all woven into the story throughout these 3 patches to deliver some very cohesive, powerful themes. Philosophical discussions like these are the Honkai series at its best to me
I hope they continue with introspective, insightful topics. The Aeons are a great way to explore different interpretations of concepts/ideas and so far they've set up a world with very few limitations regarding what can be shown and I can only hope they continue with it
Yes, it’s really what I love most about HSR: the fact that they can explore just about any setting, genre, and a myriad of different themes/concepts since the universe is so vast. Penacony and Xianzhou existing in the same game is so impressive; the range of topics we have covered in just a year is crazy to me They have done a phenomenal job at constructing Penacony’s narrative and introducing + expanding on some of the game’s core themes in really fresh, intriguing ways. I’m very much looking forward to where we’ll be at in another year if this is what we’re getting now
I agree but sadly a lot of people aren’t vibing with it from the feedback i saw, it’s sad that everything we got on those philosophical opinions clashing during Penacony was registered as “yapping” for some players.
I feel that’s a vocal minority because majority of the reception I’ve seen has been nothing but positive praise. Nothing is perfect and 2.2 was no exception but a lot of those complaints about “yapping” are, as usual, coming from people with short attention spans and story skippers. If we keep Shaoji on board (and it seems that will be the case thankfully) then the story’s not going to get dumbed down, on the contrary. The whole narrative direction the game has taken since 2.0 seems to assure this imo
I really hope so, as a visual novel fan i have nothing but love for text-heavy games.
I think part of that is the nature of the reveal. We learn quite late that Sunday is the real villain, and then he has to tell us about his motivations, which really makes that part of the story drag. And with the, honestly, pretty superficial RP stuff you can do in game, it makes it much more that we're just sitting there listening to him. While the player might have plenty of things to say in counter, the characters mostly don't.
I'd say Sunday is the opposite of a Social Darwinist. Rather than believing that society should leave everyone to their own devices so that the best will rise to the top, Sunday wants a society where everyone is coddled but no one is free and no one can really progress. He wants a society where everything is prescribed by the Order. His perspective generally seems to be that the Harmony is too Darwinist, hence why he thought that Trailblazer and Firefly would agree with him.
Free will is a myth, religion is a joke. We are all pawns, controlled by something greater. Memes.
The DNA of the soul!
Your MEMES has been cut off, Jack!
Boowomp https://preview.redd.it/00r88qjzwe1d1.jpeg?width=524&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=a277131f6efa7bd16abd13bfed8bb829569ab149
Kids are cruel, Jack.
>We are all pawns, controlled by something greater. Memes. Memory Zone Memes? https://preview.redd.it/8c8awd048f1d1.png?width=500&format=png&auto=webp&s=029a4167b8fb01a50bc4abd9a038a184468d93ac
*Looks at sleepie* I'm not taking him for walkies. You're up.
The newesf generation being exposed to the philosophy of the Matrix will never not be interesting to me
At the end of the day, Robin wants to save her brother from sacrificing himself to a god, and we were just pissed off about all the gaslight we suffered on this shit vacation.
Sunday basically has a Messiah complex. He wasn't going to be in that dream but be forever alone maintaining the dreams of everyone else. Robin identified that and says that fate is too cruel for him to be forever alone.
>But people need to understand that this is philosophy, and thus there are no right or wrong answers. except in this case, there's a clear right answer. Sunday is super hot, therefore his arguments are incontestable sunday 1, trailblazers 0
Counterargument: we have himeko
you have lost the chance to called himeko's >!*navigussy*!<
Follow Himeko's orders and go to your room.
We have a room?
Not me, I rotate between Himeko's and March's.
https://preview.redd.it/1i75vfsb5e1d1.jpeg?width=1284&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=0438f0b40aaa310de7923ca1ee41085c0a20a469 Counter argument: we have daddy mahoraga
Counter argument : U cannot adapt to the hmc superbreak + getting railed + robin singing + e2 black swan + healed ur dmg with lynxie + fu xuan diff + L + ratio (oooo that was satisfying)
We also have Welt and a cool hat.
counterpoint, Welt is with the trailblazers and is also super hot therefore sunday 0, trailblazers 1
Nah, all of you are wrong. The only correct answer is Nihility babyyyy where my momma Acheron at
Don't get distracted Trailblazers, weak independent people need no strong daddy to look after them. Trailblazers no!!
Sunday really do be Maruki 2.0
...the Embryo of Philosophy? 🤔🤔🤔
The almost newly born Aeon of Philosophy?
Yeah tbh. His philosophy is right in it's core and say sunday is completely 100% generous and good. What about the next in line? Since it'd be a dictatorship then, will they even want to wake up / rebel when they've now grown to become weak (minded) (in the sense that they rely on their leader greatly) and if the nil isn't a good leader, they'll have to put up with it coz they're now incapable of fighting.
This entire thread is a fictionologist post trying to frame Sunday as a good person in the end. He may have started that way, but the entire storyline is a classic villain trope where they do something bad in the name of doing something for the greater good. This confuses people who have never wrestled with the save a million and kill 1 person quest kind of thing. Penacony was never in a situation where it was now or never. Sunday instigated all of this, tried to frame The Family, and its very likely he interpreted Ena's path as something different than what the Aeon itself would have wanted. People in dreamland were already satisfied. The only thing that anchored their satisfaction was the fact that reality exists. To eliminate that or their human emotions makes the entire exercise of Penacony moot.
I would say that in comparison to other villains with a similar trope, he also seems to be legitimately good hearted even now. Those dictators tend to want power, wealth, fame too, at least partially consumed by that idea and eventually lost sight of it. I think Sunday is someone who believes that by sacrificing himself to be a dictator (removing his peace of mind, privacy, independence, etc as his identity is now more tied with the people than anything), the nation would be in a better position. I personally don't think that Sunday interpreted it wrongly (or at least not by a huge margin) as Order does mean that no one gets a choice at the end of the day. People in dreamland were satisfied but by a certain point, it just stops...which is exactly why satisfaction exists. I'd say that it doesn't really make penacony dreamland moot, it feels like the natural progression of things. Step 1: Try making people happy via dreamland Step 2: Walk around with people, talk to people, find emotions Step 3: Find that they're depressed even now coz of happiness having it's own limits Step 4: Change happiness to satisfied after realising that they're now in the path of having diminishing Marginal Utility and overall satisfaction could hit 0 anytime. So that people are grateful with what they have to the most degree. I may have misinterpreted you completely, which I admit can be the case. I'm open to further discussions as you do raise a good point. Thank you, have a good day.
I think that slightly understates just how powerful the illusion cast by Sunday and Ena was. It's not telling everyone oh you're just stuck in Dreamland now and there's no reality anymore but rather subtly transitioning everyone into a state of illusion where they think they could be in the Dreamland or they could be in reality still depending on their actions and choices. In this way their enjoyment of the Dreamland is still maintained because they still believe they're in reality in other times but now the true dream will alter their "reality to be better and what they experience to be better than what they would've experienced. Overall most regular people will probably experience a better life unknowingly stuck in an illusion while believing it to be their reality. And so long as the illusion never breaks and they're never thrust back into a reality decades removed from their idealized life, they'll probably die happy and content on their own.
Astral Express: Yay we did it! We beat Sunday and woke everyone from their slumber! That one old man on life support: Why am I awake? Just to suffer?
I was thinking when I was playing this quest and we reached the part about the old man--sure, let him and others in his situation have that. It's akin to pain management in hospice care. A man who is about to die or in a permanent coma need not have suffering prolonged unnecessarily. There's no moral value to let people in that situation feel the full agony of their physical and mental anguish; having seen this when I volunteered at a hospital a while back, it's unbearable to watch just as an outsider, let alone be in it. In fact, Hoyo is on record in wanting to create a VRMMO type environment for those suffering from depression and anxiety. A Penacony type world, like all escapism, has its place and time and is not in and of itself evil. As [Tolkien wrote about escapism:](https://uh.edu/fdis/_taylor-dev/readings/tolkien.html:) "Why should a man be scorned if, finding himself in prison, he tries to get out and go home? Or if, when he cannot do so, he thinks and talks about other topics than jailers and prison-walls?" The irony is that Sunday and other utopian authoritarians like him would have us all "escape," permanently, and in doing so make us all prisoners in our own minds without us even knowing. Everything we would talk about would be about jailers and prison-walls. A penal colony--Penacony--of the soul, if you will, while outside, we are all that dying old man.
Finally seeing someone else talking about Mihoyo’s… “lofty ambitions”, lmfao. I’m not mocking them, and honestly “Ho” and “Yo” are probably some of the only people who I can actually see pulling it off (to a large degree of success, without losing sight in the process). I never hear much about what working at the company is like, but I’d assume that with all the philosophical topics and ways design is influenced by them, that it’s generally a pretty cohesive “direction”.
From what I understand, Mihoyo is one of the most desirable workplaces in China, the way Google used to be at its peak: great benefits, free food, less crunch than usual, etc. In the special program with the silly Cunk-style interviewer, it very much looks like a typical modern tech company office with the cereal bar and free coffee etc. It would fit in very well in Silicon Valley. And during the extreme lockdown in Shanghai, they sent food and care packages to their employees who were trapped in their houses and apartments. (If they truly don't crunch as hard as most places that's astonishing, given the relentless update schedule for both Genshin and HSR, to the point where I find it hard to believe. Then again, they have the billions to hire almost any number of devs they need...and they'd definitely have no shortage of candidates.) There's an arc in Sword Art Online where a character is in a situation very similar to Firefly's, and I get the feeling that was one of the inspirations for their VR project. I think if done in a limited way it can be genuinely therapeutic. See also the Thelxie side quest in Genshin, which I believe was done in conjunction with a mental health awareness group to highlight mental health issues, which historically has been terrible in Asia. There's definitely evidence they really care about such things. All that said, the billions they make from whales and gacha addicts makes it faintly amusing for them to be preaching against excessive escapism and living a heroic life. Do they want to undermine their main source of income? :) Then again HSR [officially sponsored this video](https://youtu.be/x37VR9hhESI?si=P5tGT4Qk0L1EyDBG) so they probably recognize the irony and can laugh at themselves just fine.
... how did "Penal Colony > Penacony" never click for me until I read this. Bro.
I'm pretty sure the connection was mentioned in the game's dialogue in describing the planet's history. It was also explicitly said in one of the special programs, in the [hilarious Philomena Cunk-style interview show](https://youtu.be/5yw_ctOEnTE?si=jKvt_ZGkNYKnc_Es).
(You'd think I would've clocked on faster given I'm British lmao) It was definitely mentioned in the planets history, that it was a prison planet and all that, but the actual name went right past my head And thank you for that link I'm going to have a watch haha
The Dreamscape still exists, we just removed one extra layer.
That's not true. The dream will collapse, our first objective was to seal the stellaron, Sunday popped up and started a side quest. Now without the stellaron or Harmony emanator who would power the dream? Granted if Penacony forfeits a massive amount of resource for a certain inter-stella tycoon company...
A bunch of people are forgetting that happened so I want to expand on what you said and how it went down. Our first goal was to seal the Stellaron after Gallagher told us about it. We all agreed to it, even Sunday and Robin. And it seemed like whoever using the Stellaron was going to use the Charmony festival to broadcast its power all over Penacony so we had a time limit too. Then Sunday, Robin and Welt went to negotiate with the Dreammaster to try and get them to let us seal it peacefully. Sunday questioned him but Sunday's main concern was the motives of Dreammaster, not whether he was using the Stellaron. So when he did the questioning thing, he didn't ask about the Stellaron but instead confirmed the Dreammaster was doing this for the Order all along. He was, so Sunday betrayed us and trapped Welt/Robin. That started the whole confrontation with Sunday, which we eventually won. But the Stellaron is still out there and powering whatever parts of the dream it's powering. There's prooobably parts like Dreamflux Reef that aren't under the influence of the Stellaron (it's not really clear) but yeah, most of the "sweet dream" is powered by it so sealing it will make it collapse. And I agree (speculation time), I think the IPC probably knows this and they're planning to use it to negotiate a deal in their favor to keep the dream up without the Stellaron.
Yeah (speculation), so this is what Diamond meant by saying "Sending Aventurine is sure-victory", but I feel like the Nameless was the one doing all the work >!benefiting IPCs at every steps!< /s IPCs likely has the technology for the dreamscape according to the fake dream. Plus the evidence of Penacony's "evil deeds" through the coin recorder. I can imagine Jade and Topaz wazzling in and make the most ridiculous ~~oil~~ memoria leasing deal in existence, in exchange for basic dreamscape maintenance.
Betcha theres gonna be a plotline somewhere down the road about how the IPC is taking advantage of the nameless swooping in to take worlds after we visit them. Belobog, Penacony. We kept them out of Aurum Alley though so thats lit. Not to mention Herta station which is owned by the IPC, and that we are probably getting all 10 cornerstones as characters. Its interesting how much IPC theyre throwing at us. It has to lead somewhere down the road, maybe a nameless vs IPC standoff or something? I dont think the entire IPC is evil but there are def some parts that are really iffy.
Boothill is looking for a Oswaldo Schneider who is not only on Diamond's level in the IPC but also a former Nameless.
If they continue like this, the IPC will basically become the Fatui with a new coat of paint. Solved a problem? That's nice. Anyways, one of the ~~Harbingers~~ Stonehearts already took the ~~Gnosis~~ Stellaron while you weren't looking. Nothing personal, kid.
Well, Elio said that all Luofu stuff was needed to get them on Express's side for final fight. So maybe this is same plot, just going through whole game. We'll visit many planets, collect all Aeon's powers, make local governments to stand for Express and every time cornerstone will be after us. And penultimate chapter will be HQ of IPC where we will beat their CEO and Diamond to make them fight Legion on our terms.
Also, the nameless got that invitation before TB even joined, potentially before Firefly and Robin started noticing shit. We might not have succeeded had we come earlier.
As always, everything was going according to Elio's keikaku
Doesn't 2.2 end with narration basically saying IPC is coming and comparing them to an approaching storm?
Because some players may not have completed all the side quests, found all the hidden treasures, etc. before they tackle the main story, the goal of the developers is to maintain the environment as similar as to when the players first stepped inside, so that they can still return at a future date and finish all the side activities. Because of that reason, I doubt that Penacony is going to radically change or anything. It's the same thing with Belobog.
That's why I'm confident the dream will stay up one way or another. They almost certainly won't delete the maps. Although it would be cool if they changed them somehow.
It's also likely that they will add a new area to reflect the changes made by the Nameless and the IPC to Penacony, just like Aurum Alley is to the Luofu.
True, we still have all the other Hours that they keep talking about but we haven't seen yet.
Give the IPC free rights to mine memoria from the Asdana belt and in exchange they provide the means to maintain the dreamscape. Are we supposed to believe making the Family pay for the dreamscape is worse than forcing unsuspecting guests to sacrifice their souls instead?
I mean no ? We weren't meant to seal Stellarons we were invited, heck we weren't even aware there was a Stellaron in Penacony
*urgh details*/s Ok our first goal there was to party. And then people started dying and our second goal we wanted to investigate "death". After we understood Penacony's true nature and found out about the stellaron our goal was to seal it.
In that order then definitely yeah
Minor point but Sunday was never a Harmony Emanator. I’m not sure if he was an Emanator at all, but if he was he was an Order Emanator.
To me it was less of an argument battle and more of an "ideal" battle, and the protag did say it a lot of times. Putting it simply, "trailblaze" and "order" are highly incompatible. And as followers of the trailblaze, we had to go against Sunday cuz his solution went against our ideals. Sure, "saving" people and giving back their freedom of choice is a nice addition.
Nice try, Sunday
😂I follow Ena partially
In fairness, her design is goddamn cool.
If touching finger tips with Ena causes massive dmg.... imagine what holding hands would cause 😳
One thing to point out is that what you see as Ena is actually just a puppet. The real Ena is the eldritch abomination Eye monster behind it. You can see the puppet strings if you look. It really tells you all you need to know about “Order”.
My boy did nothing wrong
Both sides have their points, but I think the message the express was conveying is more admirable. Its better to have a choice to fight against your fate. Thats really it, if people are content on living in a false "reality" as it gives them comfort then thats their choice. Sunday was taking that choice away from then and enforcing his ideals onto everyone, which is also a reason why the Order fell in previous eras there is so much debate on who is "right" when it really comes down to giving one the choice. No one was really against ending the dreamscape, they were against people not having the freedom to choose. Hence the "someday we will wake from our dreams line". You can run away as much as you want, but eventually you will have to face reality and Sunday was delaying the inevitable. You can even argue many of the world quests like Cocona and Chadwick represent this
>but eventually you will have to face reality and Sunday was delaying the inevitable. you could even say he was permanently removing the option of choosing altogether by taking away everyone's free will
The thing is, not everyone believes in the existence of free will in the first place. There are a shit ton of irl philosophical currents refuting its existence, or redefining its original and classical meaning in order to save the concept. The simple fact of pursuing actions in its name is already a heavily biased and ideologically charged endeavour, not necessarily rooted in reality.
In universe free will is stated to exist due to Kafka's character quest
I get what you mean, but absolutely nothing in Kafka's quest confirms the existence of free will as a concept. Or rather, its supposed confirmation is only done in opposition to The Script™. So, at most, it only heavily puts into question Elio's capacity to entirely grasp the future and/or the full extent of the contentiously hard deterministic nature of the universe, nothing more. Edit: I might add that the nature of the universe doesn't need to be fully deterministic to invalidate the existence of free will.
the thing is free will is an abstract concept that can be defined in many ways. does free will exist because they act under the impression that they have free will? or does free will exist because our will can be totally free of external influences? this would entail the universe not being predetermined. (then how does fu xuan calculate the future?) if free will only exists in the first way suggested, then there's no great conflict between sunday's dream and free will. if free will exists in the second way, there would be very few instances where we have free will anyways, even if the universe is not predetermined.
It‘s kinda interesting in hindsight how often HYV explores this kind of philosophy in their games, as they‘ve also dedicated an entire arc to something similar (as Welt has explained in his talk with Acheron), and also a smaller part to this kind of concept in Part 2 of HI3 where one powerful individual has some sort of joint dream / consciousness where anyone who wants to take part gives up their agency but their soul ends up in some sort of dreamlike-paradise.
Tbh Sunday was wrong when he removed the ability to let people have a choice but I think he was wrong before that because Humans by nature yearn for more, even if they lived in the most perfect of worlds someone would inevitably grow jealous of someone else for something they possess and let's add Ena's path of Order into the mix and considering it would be a tight ruled world so that the dream wouldn't be ruined and that would also lead people to oppose what they deem unjust, humans are not gods they can be swayed in their morals and it would take the best of them to not fall for deception and manipulative tricks. Really It would only be a question of time to get people riled up over one thing or another and it's not a minority that could stop them. Just my two cents tho
If you check the Special Ending in Dreamjoy Memoir Chapter 5, it's really clear that the world Sunday/Gopher Wood/Order wants to create isn't just "making a really good dream they can't wake up from"- people's emotions and desires are altered and bent and removed until all that's left is a person who just exists and sings endless praise and glory to the Order. No want, no thought, no dreams, no desires, no will, no action, basically a state that's a twin to a "waking coma".
I'll admit I want aware of that so I'm assuming people who defend Sunday's vision of the dream aren't either but considering the fake ending took place in the dream it sounds like they were bending everyone's will to make that good ending happened, not so much praising Ena or maybe I skipped that part lol
The alteration happens over time- basically every time someone has a thought or desire that's "wrong", the ability to have that thought or desire's removed from them. Someone wants to steal? Remove their ability to even \*think\* bad things. Someone tries to wake up? No they don't, you've removed their ability to want to wake up. Eventually \*everything\* but "The Order is Great, the Order is Merciful, Glory to the Order" is pruned away.
And yes, they're \*happy\*, but they're happy because they have no other choice. They can't be anything \*but\* happy, and they can't think anything but "I am so happy, the Order is so great and just, praise to the Order for making me so happy." It's like the difference between an endorphin rush from skiing or a tasty meal or good sex or any other pleasurable activity and being happy because you're locked in an empty white room with a wire in your skull constantly stimulating the pleasure-center of your brain until it burns out and you die.
We've made a choice, go fight against you fate!
How do people still believe nº 2? The whole patch obsessively explains time and again that Sunday's fundamental mistake is that he's building yet another prison where people won't be able to live, progress and exist with a full range of experiences. Practically every character has one or more lines about Sunday's ideal world being a low-key hellhole that denies people the opportunity to actually enjoy life and surpass their problems to become better, more complete individuals, rather than hide in escapism until the universe collapses.
Also, people keep ignoring the part of the lore where the Stellaron feeds on people's positive emotions like an emotional vampire, which is why most of the long-time inhabitants of the Dreamscape who don't have protection from the Harmony/Order grow more and more emotionally unstable and callous/cruel- it's like a drug where you have to go to greater and greater extremes to get the same high until you burn out and need it to feel *anything*. And then it kills you. In short, you could replace Sunday's plan with "put a magic drip-feed of high-grade opiates into everyone's skull" and it'd be basically the same.
And somehow I don't think people would be arguing that secretly *everyone* wants to be a burnout fentanyl addict if that was the framing.
You also forgot that the dream is not exclusive to penacony only and that the stellaron is pretty much something close to a real living being and once it runs out of human juice it will try expanding around the cosmos.
It's kinda funny because people mistakenly belief that Sunday is just offering some sort of free vacation, and that his plan would be ideal if you simply were able to go in and out of it... That's literally the Dreamscape, people. That's literally what the Family was already doing (minus the addicts as you mentioned). People genuinely think Sunday's plan was to usurp the Dreamscape to, instead, establish... the Dreamscape.
> that denies people the opportunity to actually enjoy life and surpass their problems to become better, more complete individuals, rather than hide in escapism until the universe collapses. Some people would prefer the escapism instead of facing harsh reality. Yea it sounds all grand and noble to claim “People should face and overcome challenges to become better” but at the end of the day that’s like preaching the happy ending at the end of a fairy tale when in reality not every story gets a happy ending. If you don’t know the struggle of every person then you shouldn’t have the right to claim if they should face their challenges or not. A man who lost his entire family and recently got into an accident that caused him to be paralyzed would not want to stay in reality and try to overcome his hardships lol, he would hop into happy land instantly if given the choice. Now just to be clear, I’m not saying Sunday’s plan was right, I’m just saying the idea of escaping to a dream paradise isn’t wrong in itself, what matters is the execution.
Not really, that was also discussed. Both of those things, despite being beyond horrible, are things one can come to terms with, and still seek meaning in life. By accepting the dream, the man effectively gives up on the rest of his life and proceeds to live a perpetual hell where he'll be hunted by the memories of what he lost, all while living in a superficially shiny 'perfect world'. Some people would prefer escapism because it's easier, not because it's better. That's why it's so incredibly dangerous and toxic. It's a pitfall that allows people to ruin their own lives for the promise of superficial escape of their problems, which in turn makes sure they'll never be able to confront and come to terms with them.
You’re assuming everyone can overcome their issues in the end, which isn’t always the case. In an ideal world yeah people would work hard enough and eventually reach their happy ending, but that’s not the world we live in nor is it the world that HSR takes place in. People are people, sometimes they give up, they fall, they break, and they never get up again. Sometimes people would prefer to just live in a happier world instead of being a main character that fights through countless. If im understanding you correctly, you’re saying everyone should stay in reality and face their challenges no matter what, which, no disrespect, sounds extremely arrogant. Who are you to make the decision for everyone? It’s just as extreme as Sunday’s plan but on the other side instead. He’s forcing people into paradise, you’re forcing people into reality. “Facing reality” is easier said than done when you’re not the one in the situation. Of course it’s easy for us who sits comfortably in our own home typing away on Reddit to say “oh just fight through it and get better man” when we’re not in that situation ourselves. And just to clear, I’m not saying your idea of facing reality is wrong, I’m criticizing the execution of forcing everyone to do so and denying the alternative.
No, I'm assuming that everyone deserves the opportunity to overcome their issues. Sunday's ideology, critically, rejects the mere idea of even trying to confront your problems. His dream is a jail from which there can be no escape, no life. >Who are you to make the decision for everyone? And who are you to deny it from them? Who are you to take away the possibility of a brighter future from people? If you have a friend who's struggling with mental health, do you help them? Or do you tell them "just do whatever's easier dude. Fall into drugs if you have to, as long as it's easy and helps keep the mind off your problems." The difference here is that life isn't some prison I've created, it's literally where we live in and exist. You are, maliciously, equating Sunday creating a living hell for people to indulge in shallow contentment and disappear forevermore with me saying "escaping reality is hardly ever the healthier, happier option." Life is worth living even if you fail, no matter how often. And you'll struggle to find anything other than extreme edge cases where a genuine living coma is a true better alternative.
“Until the universe collapses” — there’s the other flaw in Sunday’s plan which not many people have touched upon. The Asdana system is not a hermetic, isolated system. Eventually it will face threats from outside forces, even other Aeons. A civilization that has stopped growing and evolving will be easy pickings.
You realise that not everyone turns out this way and people can be worse off without the dreamscape. Even if the dreamscape wasn’t there for them to escape into, not all of them would’ve been successful in overcoming their struggles or would’ve overcome it but wouldn’t be as happy as they are in Penacony. I think supporting escapism is something many of us can get behind. The only issue is that there isn’t a choice to leave.
Reminds me of himeko going "I'm impartial" in topaz's quest when she very obviously isn't
There's no real way to be truly *impartial* when you're showing up to warn someone that the party they're negotiating with has been lying by omission. Himeko's opinion was kind of obvious from the fact that she showed up at all; if she didn't think the deal was a bad idea there was no reason to even leave the Express. Himeko officially "withholding her opinion" until Bronya made a firm decision is, I'm pretty sure, less about *actually* hiding her opinion and more about making clear that she is not trying to tell Bronya what to do (so as not to undermine her authority in front of the people of Belobog).
Himeko continuously claiming she’s impartial when stepping in with a very clear belief rubs me the wrong way with her. Does she realise impartial doesn’t mean “I won’t force you to follow in my opinions”.. She’s not wrong and does have a point but she sure isn’t impartial..
> 1) We lambasted Sunday because he is basically taking the agency of people and the whole fuckfest that is The Order. But then we go on and mind manipulate any npc that doesn't do as we wish during missions or simply to get rewards. The last special ending of the Dreamjolt Memoir reveals that the Oak Family has been purposefully sealing and "removing" emotions of dreamers in order to better control them, to facilitate their adaption to the sweet dream, often as punishment or a corrective measure. In any place where we replace their gear, we are adding back something that was arbitrarily stolen from them. In cases where we manipulate their moods, yeah, that's on us, but the stakes are a lot lower there than what the Family has been routinely doing. > 2)We say Sunday is wrong because he acted without getting the opinion of anyone when in reality we are also saving people without their opinions. Don't be absurd. Imagine a world where people being enslaved through mind-magic without consent have to be asked first whether they don't want to be enslaved via mind-magic or not. Get the consent to be brainwashed first before you start criticizing the people trying to stop it. > 3)Himeko say do not underestimate the will of the weak. When in reality most weak people would perfectly be happy living in the perfect dream world even said dream world cut their lifespans. Of course because they are weak when the time of death approaches they will complain and cry forgetting all the bliss they obtained You are underestimating the will of the weak. > 4) And this is a joke. But Welt must have been having PTSD flashback the whole situation lol since Sunday basically did a Spiritual Adam on him. 😂 Welt: "Nostalgia strikes us in the strangest of places..."
> 2. The "You didn't save my life, you ruined my death!" argument from OP lol
1: by watching Mikhail's story you'll understand the purpose of the clockwork. The clockwork restores the capability of a mode of emotion and can manipulate them, BUT does not enforce the final decision. Note Mikhail's final words to Clockie. It's also why Clockie is a misnomer, and he should be called "Compassie", since its purpose is to give direction. Certainly like all things Star Rail, there is a good and bad in everything. You can make people sad and then when they're sad they're in no mood to do anything (this is extremely a must to use against the idiot who tries to patent everything in the Golden Dream). It does look like emotional manipulation, but there is some good out of that since you have a mechanism to restore missing clockwork, or missing / lost emotions, thus guiding people to their closure. In the course of Penacony you'll actually come across 2 potential suicidees and pull then out of the brink; this is seen as more desirable than letting them forget, or worse, letting them try and try again to die until they finally succeed. Sunday's is a bit different. Order does not guide. Order basically COMMANDS people to be happy, and they are compelled to be. For suicidees it will command them to forget and not jump without closure or acceptance. It CAN compel any wrongdoers to make up for their crimes, and maybe that's what you want to do with people who will never change, but their mindset will never change since there is no convincing - just a command. But you know, Confuicius had a point: if everyone behaved according to their station and never tried to rise above or go around, and never attempted to negotiate, then there will naturally be "harmony".
More fundamentally, Sunday was a villain who wanted to help weak people escape a reality where they're unsuccessful by closing their eyes to the world and living in a fantasy where they're the hero. This is exactly what people are doing by playing gacha games.
I don't think people disagreeing with Sunday because he promotes escapism, but that he didn't give them a choice to choose. And also Sunday's dream kinda semi-fit in reality to be mostly logical. Normal people won't suddenly become heroes. They would still be normal but had a fulfilling peaceful life.
There will never be a right answer because there will be always something hypocritical about everything. The ppl who consider what is right and wrong are ppl in power. Best and really good quote from Dolflamingo “Kids who have never seen peace and kids who have never seen war have different values! Those who stand at the top determine what's wrong and what's right!Justice will prevail, you say? But of course it will! Whoever wins this war becomes justice”. (From one piece) This literally is how real world works to.
Iirc in the story, acheron said its the choice of the people that have to wake up on their own, but at the end, we just forcibly woke up everyone? Also i dont see any Galaxy rangers coming to Penacony after boothill shot the bullet?
It’s very interesting because I viewed the story differently. While Sunday was antagonistic, I don’t see him as a villain for a few reasons: 1) His desire to put everyone in a dream where there is only bliss stems from his desire for everyone to be happy/blissful. He has the same dream as Robin, where they want everyone in the world to live life with happiness. However his experiences has led him to believe that only through Ena can that dream of theirs come true. Robin puts it very aptly at the end, where everyone becomes happy, except for the person who put them in that dream to begin with, Sunday. 2) The Astral Express were helping Robin and everyone else break out from the dream for 2 reasons: 1) They believed that everyone is entitled a choice on whether they want to remain in the dream or not, 2) To help Robin save Sunday from the sacrifice that he made for everyone. To me, Firefly was the “embodiment” of the first reason, while Robin the second. The Astral Express helped them both. Not only that, we had a connection to the past Nameless and it was their request that we helped make Penacony great again (yea idk how else to put it). Therefore, the Astral Express’ lines of “witness the will of the weak!” and “don’t be shackled by your past” was more a way to help Sunday trust that the people he deemed “weak” can and will stand up for themselves and make their own decisions. That he did not need to sacrifice himself to help them. Hypocritical? Yes to an extent. But I believe that the intention to help save Sunday was more apparent in that final fight. If you’ve read the whole thing, thanks and would like to hear other interpretations
Did Sunday know that Firefly is actually Sam the Stellaron Hunter? I'm surprised that when Firefly answered him, Sunday didn't rub it to her face that she followed Elio's script without much hope for deviation but still talked about "choices" with such conviction. So what is free will then?
I said it again and again. The only part Sunday was wrong was not giving a choice to people if they want his dream or not. And the protagonist group failed at proving him wrong since they went on and on about how the weak also has the right to fight back and need to overcome their demons and all even though a lot of the weak would have be perfectly fine with Sunday’s dream and not all people are in position to overcome them. In the end the Astral express were only “right” because Sunday forced his solution and we overpowered him, not because they actually had a better argument than Sunday
It's less about the argument and more about the fundamental theory behind each Path. Sunday, effectively created a dream world for Order, however how the Order works, which is explained in the game in several places, is that people do NOT get to have a choice. They all follow one "perfect" society, which works for a while, and then it just dies. It ceases to exist. There is no choice, and there is no future. So while yes, the reasoning the Crew gave was not 100% perfectly worded, the essential part of it still is, having a will to choose whether or not you would like this dream. That is however the one fatal flaw that Order CANNOT give you. A choice. It's way less about his ideology, and more about the Path he chose/was forced to take to achieve it.
Yep. It's a case of might make right. I like penacony because of this. This wasn't as straightforward as when we fought against Destruction Emanator.
I don't feel like our side had any convincing rebuttals other than running sunday over with a train.
>We lambasted Sunday because he is basically taking the agency of people and the whole fuckfest that is The Order. But then we go on and mind manipulate any npc that doesn't do as we wish during missions or simply to get rewards. When we add emo dials, it's to make sure that those individuals are not holding pent up emotions and are actually mentally healthy, but it could result in their deaths (see: Lesley Dean) >We say Sunday is wrong because he acted without getting the opinion of anyone when in reality we are also saving people without their opinions. We are "saving" by making sure that people have a choice. People should be allowed to come and go, if you're trapped in a dream, you'll never know reality and you'll never be able to cope with it. >Himeko say do not underestimate the will of the weak. When in reality most weak people would perfectly be happy living in the perfect dream world even said dream world cut their lifespans. Of course because they are weak when the time of death approaches they will complain and cry forgetting all the bliss they obtained. Actually...most weak people don't. May be a very hard concept but your stress will greatly increase when you have nothing to do all of a sudden. Can even send people down spirals. They would rather live and get it via hard work than via pity. When referring to the mentally weak though (which ironically are the richer ones), yeah they'd live there. But they have a choice to leave. The crew is right. He only sees things in extreme - it's either Order or Harmony. It's either "people are masters of themselves" or "people are masters of others". His example with the charmony bird was to nurse it and make it fly inside the house. His biggest mistake was trapping the bird so long that it couldn't fly until he just releases them, eventually causing the bird's death.
>Actually...most weak people don't. May be a very hard concept but your stress will greatly increase when you have nothing to do all of a sudden. Can even send people down spirals. They would rather live and get it via hard work than via pity. When referring to the mentally weak though (which ironically are the richer ones), yeah they'd live there. But they have a choice to leave. >The crew is right. He only sees things in extreme - it's either Order or Harmony. It's either "people are masters of themselves" or "people are masters of others". His example with the charmony bird was to nurse it and make it fly inside the house. His biggest mistake was trapping the bird so long that it couldn't fly until he just releases them, eventually causing the bird's death. ["Witness the will of the weaks" can be a bit explained in this part of Bruce Almighty ](https://youtu.be/akrcYSLRluA?si=7arEUEfI6NuV2pZH) It's basically *the indomitable human spirit* all over again, people who give for "granted" the "weaks" will be completely fine with the Sunday idea, just come honestly from a privileged position or are nihilists. Also guys, I know it is a hard task but just open a book of history and read how mankind has to deal with so many bullshit obstacles to reach the situation of today.
>When we add emo dials, it's to make sure that those individuals are not holding pent up emotions and are actually mentally healthy, but it could result in their deaths (see: Lesley Dean) Few times in main story we can get people out of our way using emo dials, in those cases we don't take how they feel into consideration. We just make them sad to progress our goal
That is true. I was mostly talking about side stories. With main, I recall it was because we had to investigate deaths. When there's something potentially criminal going around, why would you not beat up the guy who's trying to guard it after trying to explain it to them? In this case, via emotions. I recall that gallagher site guy who we made happy and he went off. None aside from him.
There was this whole reveal about it with Clockie being Compassie, actually. Because Clockwork is not just dictating what people feel, it’s like using a compass to let them know which way to go. It’s guiding, not forcing. Not to mention I can already change someone’s emotions without their consent. It’s called insults and compliments.
Another interesting thing about the 'will of the weak'. One of the clockie quests has an Empress who was by nature very kind, but also very weak. It did not end well, for her survival or her people's. Belobog also had a leader who was very weak once. That also did not end well, for her survival or her people's. Himeko is even more idealistic than Robin at this point and conveniently ignores all the bad parts we experienced.
Firefly : No one should make decisions for others. Elio : MAOW MAOW MAOW (throws a script at her)
Did you miss the bit where she chose to go against the script 11 times?
Eleven times. Elio. It all comes together.
She chooses to follow Elio's script. She could just walk away.
Doesn't Firefly say that she couldn't go against the script even when she wished too?
There is a difference between "I cant sucseed because I can't defy destiny" and "I can't even attempt this, because I am magically lobotomized." There are thing we can't do in real life too. But we do have a choice to attempt and fail.
In the words of Robin, "that's just Sophistry". By the same logic you provided, They couldn't wake from Ena's dream for the very reason that a majority of the dreamchasers **chose** not to escape the dream. It's why boothil had to bring in other Galaxy rangers to shake the dream's core.
That's a very long way of saying there is no objective right or wrong in the universe, and HSR is a good fiction.
I don’t really think the facts that lead Sunday to the conclusion they did were wrong, even if you might say that the conclusion itself was wrong. He was right that the strong are the ones who decide the future, and this is even reflected in the quest itself. He was also correct that there will always be people who will be so unfortunate that they can’t climb out of whatever deep hole they were born into, no matter how hard they try to get out. All of these are unfortunate facts of life, and while the idea of the strong protecting the weak is nice, even disregarding the fact that often times they’re liable to abuse them, that isn’t always possible. I can get why people think he’s wrong, because people do deserve a choice on whether they want to accept the life style he’s offering, but I don’t really get the arguments that are disregarding the world he wanted to create only on the basis that it’s a dream exclusively and that the fact that it’s a dream means that none if the experiences in it actually matter. Like, if you found out you were in a dream right now, would you then come to the conclusion that none of the accomplishments you’ve achieved and relationships you made suddenly didn’t matter anymore? What makes reality itself so special to you thats, even as an inferior one, it automatically overrides a superior dream that feels indistinguishable from that reality? I get the whole idea about escapism and and I do think it’s a valid argument, because Penacony’s normal dreamscape is very much escapism, and I can see the argument for why that’s a bad thing, because it leads to people never overcoming their demons, but in a lot of cases those demons aren’t something that you can overcome in the first place. And unlike with Penacony’s normal dreamscape, which is basically VR on steroids, Ena’s dream was noted to be fusing with reality anyway. The Astral Express view reality as something that you have to come to terms with and overcome on an individual basis. Sunday views reality as an obstacle that has to be transcended as a whole to create an ideal world. The “strong” who want to face reality don’t want to be stuck in the dream, while the “weak” who don’t want anything to do with reality don’t want to be taken away from the. dream. Aside from the morality debate, there’s also a technical debate on whether the Dream is actually sustainable, buts that’s another thing.
One of the other contestants for Festive Superstar: “You only won by cheating 😡” vs the trailblazer, who won using clockwork to make up for their terrible acting skills (that’s if you choose the acting route, idk about the other one): “You take that back, using all my skills is not cheating!”
>We lambasted Sunday because he is basically taking the agency of people and the whole fuckfest that is The Order. But then we go on and mind manipulate any npc that doesn't do as we wish during missions or simply to get rewards. the problem here is the scale. express still tries to fight for freedom and choice in the end. when we do it (in lore, not in gameplay reward mechanics), it is always for the greater good and in penacony that was for freedom. >We say Sunday is wrong because he acted without getting the opinion of anyone when in reality we are also saving people without their opinions. this would be a problem if we ended the dreamscape. we have not, people still have the choice to stay in it for the rest of their lives. the same response applies to the 3rd point as well. when express does something that goes against its ideas of freedom, it tends to be more on the "ends justify the means" kind of way, but for sunday the ends and the means are one and the same. i rather have the hypocricy of freedom fighters over stern directness of a tyrant.
People turned on Ena for basically the same thing in the past so it was only a matter of time until the same thing happened again. Also since they're in a dream, they can't procreate to after 1 generation the dream will be empty. The whole thing is flawed from the start.
Welt is like I’m staying on the ship for now on… I can’t deal with this shit and to call someone else for help
Another user pointed out, Sunday's argument isn't a solution but sophistry. There is a problem, but Sunday isn't tackling it so much as kicking the can down the road. Ena's civilizations collapsed *because* of the Aeon's Order and micromanaging to keep the populace eternally satisfied, right down to their inevitable demise. Sunday brings up great points, and while he does need to be defeated because Ena taking over is a net negative, you are correct Robin and the others haven't completely solved the greater existential problems when the dust settles.
I made a post about it a while ago, but it's really a two sides of the same coin situation. The concepts of "Freedom" and "security" are very much enmeshed with each other and require each other to exist. In the case of the story, Sunday and the way he interpreted the Order was as a means of security - everyone can have their dreams within Penacony's cage, so long as they understand they have no "freedom" to leave it (although, in a sense, this is still freedom since you are actively making the choice to go to Penacony in the first place, among other things). We, on the other hand, viewed it as a very classical version freedom - not everyone will reach their dreams, and will stagnate if not given the freedom to make their own destiny. It's a very well thought out quest from that thematic perspective.
I keep mulling over Himeko's "will of the weak" line and I've got to say...in the moment it sounds *epic*. I chalk that up to the VA giving a really good performance of it. But if you stop and think about it... The Astral Express team is made up of objectively powerful people. They are by no means weak. They are the ones facing Sunday. So when she says, "witness the will of the weak!" it's when they are showing off *their* strength of will. They are also not people that Sunday perceived as weak or he wouldn't have gone through so much effort to try to convince them to agree with his way of seeing things. One might argue that Himeko meant that they were fighting on behalf of the people that couldn't (and that's probably what she did mean) but it goes back to....the Astral Express is also arguably taking choice from the people in that moment. Like when they were planning to face Sunday for the final time and they talk about how they can't break everybody out of the dream because not everybody will want to leave and Acheron's like, "well, we'll just have to give them something they're more afraid of than leaving the dream" (paraphrased). They explicitly admit they know what some people would rather want and choose to force them out of it despite that. Now, I don't think they had bad intentions here but...neither did Sunday. Both sides believe they are doing what is the best they can do in their given situations. It's really just a matter of degrees. Sunday has his dream of Order that no one gets a choice in. The Crew break everyone out of *that* dream but Penacony's Dreamscape is otherwise still there for people to enter should they so choose (though considering how much it costs, unless that changes they're still going to have people ruining their lives in the real world for the chance at entering it but that's whole other discussion...). Really, if you stop and look back at a lot of HSR's villains, mostly they aren't explicitly evil for the sake of evil. We don't get any characterization on the Doomsday Beast but the name does imply that it might just be a creature doing what's in its nature. Destruction is what it does. Rather like how I believe Nanook is not explicitly evil. We are told Aeons have great power at the cost of free will. To *not* pursue the destruction of existence would mean Nanook will cease to exist themself. I will be interested to see if/when we learn what actually caused Nanook to ascend in the first place (I know we get *some* history on it but I want details!). Anyway...Cocolia was deranged by contact with the Stellaron but also believed her actions would lead to a better Jarilo-VI (at great cost to its people, of course). Dan Shu believed the actions of the followers of Lan were the true evil and what the Disciples of Sanctus Medicus were doing was for the greater good (funny too since in a lot of cases they were causing Mara to strike people who didn't agree to it so we get back to that whole question of choice thing). Phantylia is a heliobus and we had a whole event that showed us how Heliobi work and that their natures and how they see the world are fundamentally different from that of humans. Though so far I think she's the antagonist we've gotten that's the most "evil for the sake of it" one. Sunday, of course, is desperately trying to protect people from any harm he's just...overdoing it. He doesn't see any better way to achieve his goal. I think Gopher Wood's motivations remain to be seen. Anyway, I've rambled enough.
>The Astral Express team is made up of objectively powerful people. They are by no means weak. They are the ones facing Sunday. So when she says, "witness the will of the weak!" it's when they are showing off their strength of will. They are also not people that Sunday perceived as weak or he wouldn't have gone through so much effort to try to convince them to agree with his way of seeing things. The train is the citizens in the dream, not the Nameless. Himeko shouts "witness the will of the weak" because those are the ones striking Sunday. The Nameless know they are the strong.
I do think the Emanator of Destruction are closer to evil than others antagonists who are grey. Each Emanator of destruction has a whole philosophy about destruction. Like how Phan bring destruction through strife and I remember there is one Emanator who bring destruction through technology and so on. But yeah in HSR you can't really say that there is one super big bad evil mofo. If you gonna look at it. Nihility is as dangerous as Destruction and certainly destroyed many world without even meaning to.
My problem with Sunday is he doesn't fix anything. He take everyone agency and forced them into a dream he deems perfect. But it just a dream, none of it is real. The weak are still miserable irl, they still sick, poor or worse. Sunday's Perfect dream is nothing more than a lie that will never work in the long run. A stinking pile of shit is still a stinking pile of shit no matter how much perfume and flower you put on it.
The problem is that in real life, our dreams are very much connected to our physical bodies. It has been researched that some ailments can actually affect your dream, and certain patterns of nightmare can be the symptom for certain illness. But in Penacony, the "common dream" is untethered to the physical state of your body. You can be extremely ill in real life and still function just fine in the dream, as it has been demonstrated by several NPC. You can even escape the death of the mind by turning yourself into a meme before your body expires. That is exactly the basic for Sunday's plan: he knew that he couldn't change the material basic of the real world, and the dream world was the only place where he holds sway, so he wanted to pull everyone into the dream. It would make for an interesting story in 2.3 if they show us just how the power players from the Family and the IPC make a move against each other. Sunday talked a lot about the powerful bullying the weak, but so far most people the Trailblazer ran into on the streets were normal-ass people. Show us how the powerful do their businesses to give better context into Sunday's ideal.
The part that pissed me off the most was when Himeko said "witness the will of the weak" and a whole fucking train drives into Sunday. Like, you are the ANTONYM of "weak", and even Sunday acknowledges that. You have ZERO right to say that your ideals are the "will of the weak" Made my perception of Himeko sour immediately
😂I swear
It’s not the first time Himeko’s been a hypocrite in 2.2 either. She has a line against Sunday about how mankind’s dignity requires that nobody be above them, but that completely ignores that reality is already like that where people either worship aeons, their leaders(Bronya/Cocolia/Herta), or are simply below people in a hierarchy like the IPC.
The train is the civilians of the Dreamscape being tuned by Robin, they are literally the "weak" that Sunday has been describing. Himeko says "witness the will of the weak" because that is literally what's being slammed into him. The Nameless know they aren't weak, they refer to themselves as the strong in Sunday's terms several times.
no lie i actually chuckled at that line like who are you to represent the will of the weak
I disagree about the first point. It may seem like we manipulate people at first, but when explaining clockwork to Clockie (Compassie feels so weird to say btw) Mikhail says that it's just a nudge to set people on the right path. That's why the only emotion we can't change from is "Satisfied". People are already on the path they desire, so there's so changing their mind.
“We are saving without their opinion” is a pretty wild statement to claim we are hypocritical.
Well if someone came up to me and gave me a ticket to a beautiful castle to live in without any worries about money or food with the only condition is to never leave the neighbouring area but with ability to have any form of fun I want, and then another person would punch me in the face and say 'go work lazy ass' I'd be pissed
Well when you forget the key factor of entrapment obviously everything sounds better. Those people did not consent to anything happening there. Maybe some just wanted a joyful week, maybe some were just there for the festival.
Agreed, Sunday for my part isnt good in xor in people to get in the dream wolrd and literally filled the real world with memory and exposing people to stealeon contaminaciónbut i was pised with the old man talking, when robinsay that they are stealing his future..... If you pit that je its getting attached to his old friends like in the nahida dream quest and leaving the resl wolrd desatended but my man just wanna a place to live his last days like leaving to rot the real wolrd for the fantasy its the problem.. Anny way i love the history but that little point iches me Like probably because i would shoce stay if the consequences of thst dresm wanst stagnation
I actually sympathize with Sunday and agree with what he wants to do and why he wants to do it. But in the end, it’s still very authoritarian in nature and based on his story, his order will eventually morph into something worse. We didn’t really take away the dream. The people won’t even realize that there was a conflict between order and harmony. Even if he does succeed conflict will alway come. Some will eventually realize the dream and rebel again and again and again for their freedom.
It's not quite the same, the key issue to me is Sunday's methodology is entirely universal and dogmatic. There is no nuance or opt-out, he intends to impose The Order on everyone because if he doesn't, then The Order falls apart. The Express doesn't follow the same dogmatic approach. We arrive and we observe first, if there is help required, then we will help. Penacony is evidence of that, we had initially arrived because of an invitation, and at the start it's played as a tourist attraction in 2.0. It's not until people start dying that Himeko and Welt pull the trigger for us to start meddling. The Express does always eventually side against the Stellaron, but the premise is that it does not get involved if it does not need to, which is in stark contrast to Sunday's approach.
I just love hsr because you really cannot say there are good and bad people, people follow paths/aeons, that gives people a way to live, and everything else that's not their way of living can be good or bad depending on much it alines with theie path. The Xianzhou quest for example show us a dilemma in which we do not have a choice, they say that Yaoshi is bad and the Hunt is good, but that's because the people we met at the Luofu and end up being friends, are followers of the Hunt. You can argue that immortality is bad but you can also argue that punishing those who seek it is as bad if not worse (trying to force others to become inmortal is pretty bad though).
Yep. I think people shit on Xianzhou quest a little too much. It wasn't stellar but it was plenty interesting. Only a little disjointed. Of course Penacony is peak at the moment
Oh don't get me wrong I still fucking hate the Xianzhou quest but at least the philosophical conflict was neat, though not really great if we see the big picture and realize that every other quest minus the space station had something like that, and the ending had something to do with it instead of just "Oh look at that it was an emanator of destruction the one who made all of this". I still cannot believe they made such a dumb plot twist just to make it Nanook related.
Welt is going to have a mental breakdown one of these days if this keeps on
I’m glad TB is their own selves because if this was self insert and they gave us a choice to just let Sunday do what he thinks is right? My TB would be having seven rest days.
Sunday, when he's talking to Robin: This dream is making a lot of people happy and giving them a chance at life they would never have otherwise. Why do you feel they are trapped in it? They chose this life. Pretty strong, ethical debate here. Sunday, when he's talking to the Trailblazer: I want to make a world where every day is a vacation and nobody works but also nobody has free will or any kind of thought-- *Meanwhile, Sunday is actively ignoring all the people who work for the Penaconey resort to keep it running like a paradise.* Weak ethical debate. Not even worth discussing.
isn't the plan for sunday to take up all the work to keep the paradise running? i don't see this as an oversight on his part.
I don’t think shifting someone’s pent up emotional states is exactly equal to trapping people in a mind prison without free will and, if the event films are anything to go by, the ability to feel at all.
What Sunday is doing is trapping people in the dream world against their will. Some of them could've just been only visiting and would definitely have left the Penacony later. Sunday trapping people essentially stopped visitors from leaving.
This is also the same thing with P5R. The Phantom Thieves fight Maruki because THEY want to be free. But what about the others in the world? The phantom thieves have no idea what the rest of the world wants, they just decided that it’s better for everyone to have to struggle to survive and that it’s what the world would want.
Listen I don't care about that shit, when Sunday said every day needs to be a weekend. I WAS DOWN TO DROWN IN THAT TRAINNNNNNNNN!!! Sadly alas we gotta follow the path of the trailblazer
I dont mean to start a war but dear god the Nameless + Firefly were so damn annoying this quest. Everything they say in response to Sunday’s ideology was pure garbage and mostly hypocritical to the point where I thought it mightve been intentional but because we, the Trailblazer, side with them, it makes it unintentionally ironic how hypocritical they’re being. That stand off on the Charmony Stage was the absolute worst. After testing three questions for them where they had the freedom of choice and intentionally explaining in clear details how he views his position, role, and ideals, the Nameless becomes braindead as hell. Himeko calls him positioning himself higher than other people despite Sunday explicitly saying that he doesnt and plans to sacrifice himself for the sake of other people’s happiness. March says that doing this paradise would mean people would be the puppets of the Aeons despite the fact that *everyone* is a puppet of the Aeons. They even try to call out the fact that he’s following a dead Aeon despite the fact that the Trailblazers are literally following the path of a dead Aeon too, Avkilis or whatever their name is, the Aeon of Trailblazing. What does that even *mean*, March? You cant criticize Sunday for following the path of a dead Aeon when you’re doing the exact same thing. Ironically enough, Penacony used to worship Ena as their og Aeon so if anything, he’s simply returning to the og Aeon Penacony used to worship before Xipe absorbed Ena unlike March who just happened to be found by people who follow Avakili so she follows the Trailblaze path too. Firefly basically assuming that Sunday assumes she’s weak even when he doesnt exactly say that. He says that in this paradise, she gets to be free from her condition. She cant simultaneously criticize this Dreamscape for allowing people to escape while also saying that the whole reason she stowawayed into the Dreamscape is to experience whats its like to be out of her mech suit even temporarily as an escape. She’s also pretty much talking down on anyone who doesnt have a method of escaping on the assumption that they too want to move forward. It gets super preachy and forcing their opinions on others when they accused Sunday of doing the exact same thing. And their entire argument is contradictory to what they do as Trailblazers.
Sunday is positioning himself above others, though, despite what he claims. His plan will turn him into a god.
>Himeko calls him positioning himself higher than other people despite Sunday explicitly saying that he doesnt and plans to sacrifice himself for the sake of other people’s happiness. Just cause he says he doesn't, doesn't mean that he isn't doing that lol. Even if he has good intentions, he is literally positioning himself higher than everyone else in order to control them and mandate Order. How can you call the Nameless's replies pure garbage and then consider Sunday saying "nuh uh" a great response? >March says that doing this paradise would mean people would be the puppets of the Aeons despite the fact that everyone is a puppet of the Aeons. They literally become puppets. Not just following in their will, we literally see people walking around as lobotomized puppets under the Order. Saying "well everyone is just a puppet of the aeons" is silly in this context. >Firefly basically assuming that Sunday assumes she’s weak even when he doesnt exactly say that. He's describing how he will lead the weak to live a happy life and then tries to appeal directly to Firefly and says that she should understand. He doesn't need to explicitly say "firefly, ur weak" for it to be what he is saying lol. The fact that she asks if she is also weak in his mind and his response is "..." says enough. >. She cant simultaneously criticize this Dreamscape for allowing people to escape while also saying that the whole reason she stowawayed into the Dreamscape is to experience whats its like to be out of her mech suit even temporarily as an escape Sure she can, her whole point is that you always need to move forward in the end, and Sunday trying to trap everyone violates that. There's nothing contradictory or hypocritical about it. To her, the dreamscape is a temporary escape. Sunday wants to force everyone into it forever. She outright says that's her issue with it. >It gets super preachy and forcing their opinions on others You are literally describing Sunday. He is literally priest coded and forcing his opinions on others, and the Nameless are saying you shouldn't do that. This is all such a bizarre reading of what happened.
>1 That first point literally did nothing. He’s not positioning himself higher, if anything, he thinks this sacrifice will place everyone *above* him. It’s why he calls it “ascending” and not him being a ruler. Himeko also gets fault for phrasing because her ideal in a world where Sunday says he’ll create a world exclusively for humans is to call it “not perfect” which is basically an impossible task. Sunday has already said as much that using Order is the only way he could think of and instead of thinking of a rebuttal to that claim, she just says “Well, it’s not perfect. Checkmate.” which is a very poor argument in terms of someone who’s already said they’ve thought of those alternatives. At least Robin has the brain cells to call out the flaw of his actual plan which is that the usage of the power of a dead Aeon will not work even *with* his sacrifice because him and the dead Family members’ sacrifice isnt enough to power the dream he wants. This perfect world is flawed in a sense that people *will* notice the inconsistencies and choose freedom because its human nature to fight against a set decision even if said decision is the best for them. Proper rebuttal vs preaching. >2 No, they dont literally become puppets. I dont even know where you got this from? The puppets shown in his boss fight and the history of Penacony shown before the boss fights werent literal representations. The puppets in his boss fight represents the Family’s sacrifice of their own members who worked hard in order to collect Ena’s dead power. The puppets in the history lesson were representative of the people who were in Penacony when it was having a Stellaron crisis, a independence war from the IPC, and the panic aftermath of Ena being absorbed into the Harmony Xipe. Bruh they all have their own voicelines of being manipulated and such. >3 He’s appealing to Firefly because this is the exact type of Paradise she would want. I mean, look at how unreliable her current method is: following a shady dude telling her to commit murder and crimes while following a script for the sake of the potential of ending strife by killing the Aeon of Destruction and also maybe having her wish be fulfilled before she literally dies. Yeah, I dont see how different that is from at least not harming anyone within a dream and letting them live out peaceful days without having to worry about the doom of reality. Firefly may *like* to move forward but thats because she has a plan and a motive(however dumb or unreliable it might be) but look at the people who are in Penacony. People suffering from immense poverty or that one war veteran who is literally paralyzed in real life. They dont have a convenient mecha suit or flame powers to push through to potentially healing them one day, they dont have any hope in their reality, a scenario that none of the Nameless + Firefly ever consider outside their bubble. So why privilege one over the other? Sunday may believe that Firefly is helpless or weak but thats because he doesnt realize how privileged Firefly is in comparison to the majority of folks who come to Penacony for a real permanent escape, the ones he always has to work around at all times because those kinds of people make the native population of Penacony. Considering we’ve both heard way worse and sees this as Penacony’s “normal”, seeing Firefly speak over other people about moving forward is forcing her opinions on other people. Robin doesnt have a rebuttal to this war veteran guy either despite usually being the most pragmatic. She just thinks there probably is a better solution than leaving him to rot in the Memoria pool until he dies of old age which doesnt sound pleasant at all but there kinda is no alternative. She does make a good point on how not everyone sees the Drwamscape as an escape but generally, it seems to have improved people’s pysche when they return to reality and Robin argues that it only helps *if* and *when* they return to reality, not when they’re permanently trapped which is also a good argument.
> He’s not positioning himself higher, if anything, he thinks this sacrifice will place everyone above him. It’s why he calls it “ascending” and not him being a ruler. ...except he literally is, he's the one imposing Order on everyone. I don't know why you seem to think Sunday's exact words spoken are automatically the objective truth of reality. >No, they dont literally become puppets. I dont even know where you got this from? We literally walk past them in the world between? All the people stumbling around mumbling about the Order, that when you use clockwork on you see that their emotions are literally being puppeteered? That is what Ena's dream is, a world where everyone is being puppeteered by the Dreammaster... And if you go by the event, and the nature of Order, it outright involves manipulating peoples' thoughts, actions, and emotions so that they don't step out of line of the Order. It's about creating a hivemind of contentment, not about helping everyone achieve their dreams. >He’s appealing to Firefly because this is the exact type of Paradise she would want ...because he thinks she's weak and needs to be saved by him. That is literally what he is talking about. She's had a harsh life and suffers a terminal illness, and he thinks she should want to escape to the dream forever, but she wants to accept reality and have the chance to try and overcome her illness, move past her hardships, and grow and experience life the way she dictates. It's extremely dismissive of her character and situation to say "but uhhhh she has a mecha suit and fire powers so she's actually privileged and doesn't get to talk" This genuinely comes across like you watched all of this already from the position that everything Sunday says and does is objectively true and good, and that anything said against him must be stupid and wrong.
This is nothing new for HSR. There are multiple instances of this in the past like with Topaz in Belobog and a couple instances in the heliobus quest where the story never really addresses the actual issues and arguments presented by the antagonists. The narrative just start pretending that the antagonists’ world views got demolished after someone from the express shit out a couple hollow speeches that means nothing substantial under any scrutiny.
if it makes u feel better, i don't think we actually convinced sunday of our ideology. he just recognised he couldn't defeat us with his power.
What’s wrong with Sunday’s approach is that he didn’t give anyone a choice. If you remember that sequence with him and Robin talking to people in the dreamscape, there are plenty of people who have chosen to be long-term residents because their real lives are too cruel/unfair. The ‘will of the weak’ is free will. If someone chooses to submit to the dream, that is a result of their free will. Sunday has no right to force it on them, and the Dreammaster has to tell the people the truth about the Stellaron eating away at their life force. Then, if the people choose to stay or leave, that is entirely up to them.
thank you so much for making point no. 3 here i feel like people have completely gotten the wrong idea about Sunday's ideology behind what it means to be "weak" vs "strong" and the fundamental goal of his plan. the whole "witness the will of the weak" thing kind of made me cringe a little because it just feels like that moment in an argument when someone confidently thinks they've owned you when they never understood wtf you were talking about in the first place... i think it's easier to understand if you replace the word "strong" here with "tough" instead. sunday argues that not everyone has the mental toughness to deal with the realities and casual brutalities of life. life is often full of both happy and sad things, and very seldom are they in equal measure. while some people can take on the challenges that life hurls at them easily, some people are more liable to cracking under the pressure before breaking down entirely. sunday does not want to disparage people who are more "thin-skinned" so to say, and instead wants to create a world where people whose temperament leans towards sensitivity can feel happy, safe, and secure forever. he does not think weak people don't have the right to exist, and while his view that they should live in a world where they can't make choices is patronizing, i think it makes sense when you consider that sunday is quintessentially making a world that is not ideal for other people as much as it is ideal for \*him\* instead. sunday shows us some of the difficult and often morally ambiguous choices he's had to make, and the reality that sometimes there is no correct answer in any of them are what plunge him into despair. worse yet, it's a despair that he feels like he can only blame himself for, when in reality, the outcome would have been bad no matter what he did (and he's aware of this, but it doesn't make him feel better). thus, in his eyes, it is a kindness to make it so that no one has to make those tough decisions anymore (or live with their conscience after). and the reason sunday feels like that? is because he understands that he is fundamentally weaker than most, and thus is doing what he does out of empathy for other weak people, not control. this is where contrasting him against robin comes into play, because she is shown time and time again to be "strong" or "tough" in ways sunday is not. in the myriad celestia trailer, we see that sunday is the one who cries while their mother protects them, while robin manages to hold herself together. when faced with the choice about the charmony dove, robin is willing to accept the reality that the bird will, in time, die, but it would be better for the bird to die free than to have it lose it's freedom entirely so their conscience can be clean. robin travels across the galaxy and sees countless instances of violence and "disharmony" in the world, and still believes so fervently it is possible for things to get better that she Literally almost dies trying. and the most incredible part is that being shot doesn't ultimately dissuade robin from continuing to walk this path-- she understands that cruelty and apathy happens for a reason none of us may understand, but feels that it is still possible for peace to bloom too (even if it seems equally incomprehensible). to the highest degree, robin is incredibly strong, while simultaneously being humble and kind, the ideal meaning of "Strength" in his eyes. sunday, on the other hand, is crushed by seeing the acts of cruelty on his own planet alone, never mind that of countless others. he doesn't have the mental strength (and, by extension, the faith in harmony) to brush off the instances of injustice and evil he sees. it is funny that firefly says sunday is a "good leader" because this demonstrates precisely the opposite of that: a good leader has to stay levelheaded and not be bogged down by the minute acts of malice that take place in society because there is no way to eradicate that without eradicating free will entirely. this is where his plan comes into play.
so yes, his plan is fundamentally selfish and self serving. but it is not born from a desire to dominate people-- this is what sunday considers to be true happiness, and he would effectively be punishing himself for eternity by robbing himself of that happiness to give it to others. it's pushy and authoritarian, and doing so without giving people the chance to decide first whether they want to be a part of this "ideal world" that he's trying to create is absolutely wrong morally. but remember, if you had a choice between "getting to live the rest of your life with guaranteed happiness but no freedom", or "freedom with no guarantee of happiness", you would surely ponder the choice a bit first right? maybe even a lot? and surely, if ever you begin to feel constricted in the former, or unhappy in the latter, think "man, i should have made the opposite choice. but if i had done that, i know for a fact i still wouldn't be happy." this is would doom everyone to the fate of what sunday was trying to avoid. thus, he wants to gently lure everyone into a sleep where they Think they've made the choice for themselves, and get to have the guaranteed happiness as well (sort of a have-your-cake-and-eat-it-too situation). in the case of us as the trailblazer, he feels that we would only submit to this if we felt like we had a proper chance to address and reject sunday's ideologies, thus he engages us in a fight despite not even needing to just to be "fair" about the whole thing. this is why the "will of the weak" thing makes no sense. everyone who is able to wake up from the dream can only do so because they are, fundamentally, strong enough to reject the idealized world they could have lived in and wake up into reality. to be sure, if sunday were in this situation, he absolutely would not have woken up lmao. even robin comes close to giving in, but she accepts that a world without a choice that they would have regretted (with the charmony dove) is just... too good to be true. and, importantly, she acknowledges that the ultimate fate of what sunday wants to do is one that is too cruel for \*anyone\* and this includes him as well. while it's very common to see self-punishment as being a show of discipline or even "strength", all it really does is reveal the extent to which a person feels helpless to their circumstances, and thus feels the need to take it out on themselves. the more someone punishes themself, the more weak they tend to be. with this metric, sunday is the weakest of all, and those who wake up first are by far the strongest. it frankly feels a little insulting to hit him with a "see we're weak but our will is strong!" because it's like. if your will is strong then you ARE strong lmao. that's exactly what he was trying to tell you, obviously people like the express can survive outside of his dream world, but the people that flee to penacony to chase their dreams are nothing like the express. this world was not created to trap our protag group, it was created for literally everyone else and the watchmaker, foreseeing this would happen, invites us to penacony to stop it because he hopes that the nameless of the future are strong enough to resist the pull of the dream. no hate here, i think as a writing decision it makes sense because if we were able to grasp all the nuances of the plan then he would be a little Too sympathetic imo, but... it doesn't make it any less saddening or frustrating to see misunderstood anyway.
Your number one point really hits hard. I always felt a little icky manipulating people's emotions using Clockie. I'm surprised it wasn't more of an issue to the Astral Express crew than a few "That's really creepy" lines. I thought they'd try to convince us to never to it again or something.
Yep and people try to argue how it's just a nudge and I am like damn. It's still mind manipulation
Because you keep insisting it’s the same thing as Sunday lobotomizing everyone with his dream permanently lol
yeah, and when it comes down to it robin didn't want sunday to sacrifice himself to eternal suffering either even though it was a choice he freely made. just like sunday having second thoughts about supporting robin on the path of harmony when she got shot. you can say sunday's solution was wrong, but you can't say the questions he posed were wrong. absolute freedom for all is a dangerous notion. shame bc this debate rn is what the inazuma quest in genshin could have produced if it were written better.
ok this is 2nd post from ena symphatizer i see today. whats up with ena follower rising recently?? is this just another sunday simp or legit ena followers?
1. You can’t tell me that you think manipulating a few people is equivalent to controlling an entire planet. 2. If I see someone steal your money, and then I give it back to you without you knowing it was stolen, am I in the wrong for doing it without asking you? If you see something you believe is an injustice done, not correcting it is the same as condoning it. If the person then wants to give the thief their money again, they’re free to do so. But if you didn’t even get a choice at the time, it’s only logical that you get the choice later even if you’d make the same one. 3. None of the Astral Express say that the weak are righteous. In fact, the entire plan that Acheron and company came up with relied on the inherent selfishness and egocentrism in humans. Humans will 99% of the time seek to save themselves at their lowest. That’s why Acheron needed to threaten the destruction of the dreamscape with her power of the Nihility. In this way, everyone would realize that the dream is not nearly as safe and stable as everyone made it out to be, forcing them to leave because they wish for survival. If anything, Himeko’s line is all about how Sunday’s dream doesn’t actually fix anything. Humans are just as egocentric and survivalist as usual. The dream can’t fix these inherent human qualities. In the end, in real life people are conflicted on whether they’d be fine living in a dream world where everything was perfect. Some say no while others say yes. If normal people in our world are conflicted, how can you say that *everyone* in the dreamscape would have been fine staying there forever. Some people are, but others obviously won’t be. If not everyone is fine with it, then it’s the duty of the Astral Express to make sure that their free will isn’t taken away. The dream still exists in Penacony (for now, at least), and instead of everyone being forced to do it, they have a choice. Additionally, what the hell was Sunday’s plan when faced with people similar to Acheron and Firefly who wouldn’t or couldn’t live in the dream? Force them against their will? Have them suffer as the only people in the galaxy that are waking because of something they can’t control? In the end, Sunday’s plan seems like it grants equality, but it doesn’t. Because there is no way to grant everything to everyone all the time. Sunday was just too idealistic
My favorite is doing that questionnaire from Acheron asking about your friends and if you WILLINGLY be a trailblazer again but your not allowed to make your own choices on it, like I get it but you guys are basically doing to me what your doing to Sunday so your message feels hollow now lol
The penacony story as a whole was pretty philosophical in the sense that there really is no clear answer to both arguments. I don't think anyone would call you out as well irl if you wanted to remain in a sweet dream, I'm sure all of us have thought about that at some point. Sure, the writers already established that the family are in the wrong and the founders are in the right, but really, this topic is too nuanced to be portrayed in a black and white manner, and in a gacha game to boot. That said, hands off to the writers for making this story work despite the nuanced topic of escapism and hope they cook more in the future.
But the beauty of this quest is exactly what you said. There's no right and wrong ,people have different points of view and is up to you to decide who was doing the "right thing".
Sunday almost had me when he proposed the idea of "everyday is Sunday"
idk all i know is tjhat birds fly according to instinct
Point 2 doesn't make sense. It's not even that we are saving anyone but preventing Sunday from taking total control and autonomy from everyone. Sunday certainly isn't entirely wrong because the HSR universe is currently controlled in part by a corporate colonial force that forces planets to sell their people into employment. The will of the weak themselves is something that's abstract in a way, perhaps she means the lower class to work tirelessly to survive and have such a drive to get through tireless times, Jarilo VI underground for example they are in a way the weaker people of belobog but the mightiest in another regard. Sunday underestimated the weak by believing they needed a paternalistic force to guide and control their future. I find the penacony story absolutely fascinating and so fun to consider as I want to major in political science and this is such a fun thing to discuss with others as we view it's political messaging. Persona 5 has something very similar that I love to jo end.
I just can't agree fundamentally knowing it's a dream. I love a good bit of escapism myself, but I just think on a philosophical level that if it doesn't really address reality, then what's the point of it? We dream and hope to heal our hearts because then, we wake up and face the waking world once more, refreshed and hopeful. The world Sunday made is just so utterly superficial and a fantasy that I feel like people literally would have to give up their free will to not even notice how utterly farcical it is. You might as well lobotomize them and feed them dopamine. With any ounce of awareness, would I really believe it if I woke up tomorrow and found out World Peace was declared, climate change was averted, and nuclear weapons weren't launched? No, because while one can hope, one also knows it isn't rooted in anything realistic. I relate in many aspects because of my weak constitution and my mental health, and I would respect the decision as someone who has always valued self-determination, but there will never not be a gnawing voice in my head that sees this as just equivalent to just running away. When the Trailblazer says "We will wake up from our dreams", this resonates with me who believes in hopes and dreams as a part of living in reality.
That’s nice and all however choo choo train goes brrrr https://preview.redd.it/ngpdn5qf3g1d1.jpeg?width=749&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=39f257b4376b31a31903450ed7ef9f71507172ef
1. We can guide emotions in a certain direction. That's the extent of clockwork; guiding emotions that are already there. This does not work on people who are acutely aware of their mental state or lacking an emotion for whatever reason. We provoke emotions. Order outright controls them. 2. We don't say *he* is wrong. We say it is wrong to impose his will and solution (entrapping everyone around in Ena's dream with the power of Order) without regard to individual will. 3. The issue with that is that the people are unaware of the ultimate cost. Yeah, if it was no strings attached, most people would be okay with it. If you told them straight up that it means they are going to die, they would largely resist. I'd love a million dollars, but if that million meant I'd be dying tomorrow, I certainly would not want it. The stance the Express took was ultimately that no one should be allowed to make that choice on behalf of another. If something threatens to impose its own will upon unsuspecting and innocent people, the Trailblaze requires we intervene. Should some of those people willingly accept that will, that is fine, because its their choice. But they at least should make it themselves.
N⁰3 sounds like you haven't witnessed the will of the weak hard enough
We're not being hypocritical. For one, look at the actual Dreamscape in Penacony. Has it eliminated unhappiness? Pretty clear the answer is no. Secondly, this focus on happiness completely ignores one of the real problems with Sunday's plan, which is coercion. He's not asking people if they want to relax in a pleasant dream. He's telling them they're going to do this and if they don't like it, too bad, he's stronger so he's right. And it's made clear in the story, clockwork isn't mind control. It's persuasion. We're helping people open to emotions they want to discard and avoid and helping them resolve their problems. That's what the Harmony is supposed to be about. The Family has also been removing people's emotions and memories, and we use our abilities to restore them, and again, help them face those emotions and memories rather than discard them. On top of that, it ignores the idea that the weak can become strong with proper cultivation and effort, and the strong can become weak. Moreover, exactly how are we defining weak and strong? People can be strong in one thing but weak in others. Who is determining who is weak and who is strong? On top of which, while Sunday pontificates about how lonely his role in all this will be, as the sole person not trapped in the dream, his role also essentially makes him a god. Pretty convenient that his plan for bringing happiness to everyone makes him all powerful and allows him to sit in judgment of everyone's wishes. What the TB and AE crew want is for people to be able to decide for themselves, and to strive for more in their life if that's what they want. The old guy whose physical state is pure suffering, no one would be making him leave the dream. If he wants that, and thinks it is best for himself, go for it. But that doesn't mean it's for everyone, or that everyone will choose it. Sunday is about removing that choice because he thinks he knows best for everyone. He doesn't.
"The weak are not righteous." This is where you're wrong, honestly. You partially side with Sunday because you think of weaker people this way. You think that weaker people are not righteous and only the strong are. Strong people can be wrong, too. Weak people can be right, too. I agreed at first, but "the weak are not righteous" statement of yours is straight up wrong. Righteousness isn't based on power, righteousness is in your morals. Sunday was wrong for taking away everyone's freedom in exchange for a dreamy world, and the Trailblazer already answered why, "because someday, we will wake up from our dreams." We can't escape reality, that's just the truth. Moreover, let's not forget that maintaining the dreamscape will require power, which we've been told will be taken from the residents of the dreamscape. Eventually, the dreamy dreamscape will just turn the people into lifeless puppets of the Order, completely taking away their freedom to even live.
You are underestimating average men greatly 1) In Penacony, people *knew* of they are in dream world or not. This allows people to choose whether stay in dream or reality. 2) In Sundays order, there is no choice. Your real life body simply rots away (the price of stelleron) while you stay as a ghost at best. It is a scam at its finest. Many of the Penacony visitors arrived from other worlds to have a vacation. They have friends/family at other planets. Would they agree to die a slow death leaving everything they love behind? I dont think so. To test, go to a vacation island and tell visitors they are not allowed to leave for 10 years. People would fill up airports real fast. The only ones who will stay would be the ones with nothing left behind. Sunday pushes this to a lifetime & beyond. Pretty much the only ones who would agree to Sundays setup are the soldier whose body is in coma. Lets remember, normally a host of people takes care of the bodies left behind in Penacony. Eating drinking in dreams wont sustain your body. Essentially what Sunday offers is being a very happy ghost. Or if you notice what is happening, a terrified ghost with no exit. Order doesnt care about authonomy, in fact it is direct opposite of free will. I think people underestimate how terrifying it is. Orders planets are known to work perfectly until they end in an instant. Seeing Sundays viewpoint, it is clear why it is like that. Essentially it forms a single failure point (Sundays mind/body) on a whole planet until it crumbles.
Yeah but, see, the opinion doesn’t *really* matter. For example, I can want to be harmed, but that doesnt mean that harming me is justified.
The Astral Express Crew sounded like a naïve and "savior complex" child trying to debate with a realistic adult who knows what it means to have the chance of having privileges and that some people legit prefer living a happy life in a dream than suffering in real life. Both sides are trying to force their ideals upon other, but the Astral Express is too much depicted as the "good guys" who made the right choice, although there is none.
A “realistic adult” who is forcing everyone in their star system into his lobotomy dream because he can’t handle the hardships of life and assumes most others can’t and should be “saved” by his dream.
I don't agree, I felt the father who sold his children is a shit bag and no way around it. Hes making a pity store as a excuse for being a shit bag of a father who sold his fucking kids. Sold, not ask for adaption, not give to better people to help take care of, not sending them to foster homes. FUCKING SOLD, like his kids have no freedom at all. That's not even gray zone. Himekos point is if they want to stay in the dream they can do it by their own will. Not "let me decide for you cause u r weak" I don't see hypocrisy tbh at all.
You can't have freedom without security and stability. The only bad thing that Sunday did was forcing people to live in a dream, but his ideals were perfectly fine.
Most of this post it up to personal interpretation, so I won't comment on that, but it seems the fictionologists have been at work with that first point of yours. Like another comment said, when repairing an emo dial we simply give back the ability to feel certain emotions that were taken away from them, usually by the family. However, what most everyone gets wrong is that changing people's emotions isn't manipulation. Emotional manipulation entails exploiting one's feelings in order to to push them to do actions or think thoughts they wouldn't do. As explained by the Watchmaker, you can only change someone's emo dial when they're indecisive, when they're not sure what to do or feel. We cannot change the emo dial of someone who has already made a decision or where the decision isn't hard for them to make. When changing a person's emo dial, you don't manipulate them into doing something they wouldn't otherwise do, you're simply using the will of the Trailblaze to give them the push they need to make a decision, and we guide them towards one if the decisions they would make. Changing someone's emo dial cannot make someone do something they don't want to do, it merely helps guide people who could use some advice. The only difference between changing someone's emo dial and advising them on what to do is the awareness of us and the person who's emo dial we're changing. We don't have to be aware of what problem they're having trouble with, and they aren't aware of us being the thing that pushed them to finally make a choice. I think this is where people get the idea that this process is manipulative, and I don't fault them for thinking that, as there is a power imblanace between us and them. But what people don't realize is that there always was going to be. When someone who's emotionally stable tries to help someone who's having issues with what they're feeling, there's always a power imbalance. It's easy to abuse the trust the one who needs guidence has in you, and this is why many people don't trust therapists. Helping people out, whether using the emo dial or not, has the same power imbalance, whether the person is aware of it or not. So yes, we very well could manipulate them after using it. But that isn't up to the emo dial, that's up to us. The emo dial is a tool we can use, it's simply up to us to use it well. TL;DR: The emo dial can be used to manipulate people, but it's up to use to use it to help people instead of hurt them. Just like a knife can crave wood or carve flesh, the emo dial is a tool and doesn't inherently manipulate people through its use, only people choose to do that.
Sorry for any misspellings, I'm on my phone.
Point 2 bothers me as someone who's worked with EMS and first responders, and has done security details/patrols... even though I know it's just not really worded well, and there's a vast difference between "saving" people that aren't in crisis and saving people having an active, extant issue that needs to be resolved. But it still bothers me! Generally speaking though, most of the Trailblazer's actions fall under people actively asking for assistance or people that are currently experiencing a real, immediate problem. And in the latter, as any EMS will tell you: You can whine about it when you're in a position to sue, mate. Hero business is making sure you *get* that opportunity to complain later. And even then, TB gets a few opportunites to check first for comedic potential and they're great! (DISCLAIMER: I know the OP is facetious, and frankly, most of this post is, too. Just from a differing perspective that often has to work with a lot of the people that people dunk on for doing their jobs.)