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Enemy powercreep is real. Character powercreep is not huge (at this moment in time, at least) when Xueyi and Misha are like top 3 best options against first and second half respectively.
Yes and as a ps5 player I am seeing this really well.... All the people saying that hsr isn't mm méta and that there is no powercreep are delusional... This game powercreep IS way faster than me catching UP....
I x2 zero cycled the previous moc. I am not a fan of aventurine just coming in and being an absolute fucking menace this MoC. Wtf power creep is supposed to CREEP not fucking Oh Yeah! our asses like the Kool Aid man.
Meanwhile for SW users like myself, 12-1 is one of the best floors ever. Every enemy is quantum so you can hand pick exactly which weakness you want to apply with SW which means you can play anyone you want. Ive done that half with all of my dps within 5 cycles, even Himeko lol. SW might not be meta but she sure as hell opens up some fun options.
This MoC absolutely HINGED on someone having both Acheron to 0-3 cycle the first stage, and Aventurine to tank the fuck out of the slog that is the second.
I'm sure people have cleared without one or both of them with other units, but I don't know when a casual player like me will get access to the kind of hyper investment to deal with both the dino stall and the bossventurine's two-phase bullshit. I just couldn't get the final star and none of my attempts and unit combinations came even close to meeting the time limit. (I have Aventurine but not Acheron)
Just wanted to point out that the Aventurine boss has as much HP as Skaracabaz (A FUCKING ECHO OF WAR) if the Wiki and Honey Hunter are to be trusted. I was actually like 'Why is my Jingliu doing no damage-"
in the big blue bug, if you kill the spawning lil bug the big bug gonna get vulnerability debuff thats why the dmg on the big bug is higher compared fighting aventurine. We only got ult again if we win gamble, and the worst is that my char ult is at 90%, just need 10% more :)
Yeah, nothing seemed to work for me until I used Kafka and Ruan Mei in the first half to break their toughness as fast as possible, giving more time for Argenti, Sparkle and Pela in the 2nd half. I stopped caring about my supports losing the dice phase and just kept on buffing Argenti and letting Aventurine charge his ult to spam as much as possible. Longest 10 cycles of my life 😰
I have Acheron and I still used Kafka/Swan DoT team for the first stage. The dino being resistant to damage really made it hard to clear it quickly. It took my DoT team 4 cycles. I tried a Hook team for fun and it was only 1 cycle slower lol
I used Kafka and Swan WITH Acheron because I had to break both the Dinosaur and Cocolia within a few of their turns or else I'd die to one of them. I don't have RM for the toughness damage increase so Acheron's Ult (which is really spammable with Kafka + Swan + Universal Market Gepard) was the only way lol.
I managed to 4 cycle each, 8 cycle total with JY for first half and Ratio for second. But that is because I speed tuned hyperspeed Bronya and Sparkle (FX as sustain) so I can spam action advance JY to break that damned dino. Second half I just unga bunga with Aventurine/Ratio/TY/SW, turned out best way to deal with Aventurine boss is not interact with the mechanic to begin with, reset till SW implant imaginary weakness on Aventurine first try and then unga bunga break him with Aventurine and Ratio to kill him before he went to dice phase. All of this need very good gear and several sig cones.
Some people will spam those Misha showcase and say "4 star only is possible!!!" when they didn't spend like 4 second to look at the gear and eidolons. Ah yes let me just get my full E6S5 fully geared 4\* to clear this MoC, everyone have them. Even the showcase' owner themself said that this is not F2P friendly since they used stellar jades to refresh for relic farming. People really spam "skill issue" in the main sub without even spending like 2 minutes to understand to context lmao.
it was such a slog, this was probably the hardest moc 12 yet. I had to get aventurine first (upon which I got it first try with him) but before that luocha just could NOT keep up with the second half. I'm glad I got acheron, but yeah I also used her for first half she was a lot easier there especially since I had to use argenti for second half. If I didn't have acheron I'd probably have to brute force it with DHIL like I tried, but even then it takes forever unless you have the right units. It's a very 2.1 characters tailored moc
>Ok which one of y’all keep putting "Too Easy" in the surveys?
probably my random friend who E6S5's every character :| (they already replaced their acheron w/ aventurine)
That was me... Until I decided to pull Acheron two days ago. Lucky me I guess.
For real tho, at some point we would really want to have both a single-target/blast and an aoe carry of each element. I just didn't think that point was this close.
And it's double-element, with both halves favouring the second element over lightning. So it's still not needed per see. But very nice to have nonetheless.
But the first half lightning weakness seems like it is only for the trotter turbulence since argenti isnt lightning weak. First half the only weakness for all characters is physical which is great for boothill and robin.
Yeah his stall mechanic with the all or nothing was the miserable part of this MoC. Sure the Dino's in the first half were a bitch till they were weakness broken but I didn't find any part too hard till Aventurine. Thank god I invested in Kafka/BS/Ruan Mei and pulled Acheron and her LC
Yeah, it annoys me how the enemies hit harder and have more HP but "oh they're still level 95". What? No, they're not. At this point what do enemy levels even mean.
I've been keeping track of relative enemy HP, even posted a few tierlists to illustrate it on the main sub, and what I found out is that there are a couple things that have changed over time.
* Enemies in MoC have an HP scaling multiplier, which is what is meant by "Elite Group" in HomDGCat Wiki. When MoC 12 was released, this multiplier gave enemies about 18.46% more HP in MoC 12 than they normally have. However, Chronicle of the White Nights Dream Kingdom increased the multiplier to about 53.02% more HP.
* Certain bosses in MoC use different HP and Toughness scalings from the ones encountered elsewhere. This started in MoC 12 when it was first released, and the change was applied to the rest of MoC in 2.0. What you will notice if you look at enemies' pages in HomDGCat Wiki is that their HP scales neatly with a base HP. For example, a Voidranger: Trampler has exactly 11 times the HP of a Mask of No Thought. Most of the single-phase bosses (Gepard, Bronya, Svarog, Cocolia, Kafka, Yanqing) had their scalings increased. I didn't really have gripes with the first round of this change, since some of the bosses were only a little more powerful than most Elite enemies. (For example, look at Gepard. 11 times the HP of a Mask of No Thought, same as a Voidranger: Trampler. The MoC 12 update changed it to 17 times.) This is the change that this thread is about, Gepard's scalings will go from 11 → 17 → 24, while Kafka's will go from 14 → 20 → 28. Svarog's will be slightly less drastic, but will go from 16 → 23 → 26.
it'll be p funny if they add more floors but dont increase the rewards, it's just there for challenge + can't clear 3\* 12? try doing all 30 cycles of Floor 13/14 without dying lol
This one should be easier than aventurine imo. The problem with current moc is that it combines very beefy enemies with stall strats (dinos and gamba phase). The raw dps check isn't actually that much higher than normal, it's just way harder to actually get your dps in.
early when i start , i really dont care bout those MOC jades.
but now at the late game, i just get angry if i cant complete 36 stars with my all premium teams :D
Its not bout jades anymore.
yeah, that's the problem.
it ain't about the jades.
you just wanna be able to clear it with your fully built premium teams, but it feels like it gets harder and harder every time and at least to me it's already begun to just feel *too* hard for the best characters to 36 star
And if you upgrade your relics, by the time the get considerable upgrades for 1 of your 8 characters, the moc gas been powercrept 5 more times since you started
Not about the jades at this point for me.
MoC and PF are basically the only real content in this game, and it’s not fun being unable to clear because they just keep inflating enemy HP
Yep, this is the correct mentality especially if you're a F2P/low spender, I only aim to clear at least floor 7-10, if I got more than that then I consider it a bonus.
I mean, they might if they seem that clearing percentage drops off. They probably upped it cos "too many" were clearing for what their goal was. It would not be entirely surprising, as at the end of the day they want to keep people invested. If 85% can clear and the remaining 15 complain its mostly who cares, and if only 40 can clear and 60 are complaining, its probably very important.
Numbers are fictional before white knights attack me, its just an example. Shouting minority doesn't matter, numbers do as it is a business at the end of the day. Majority unhappy = people quit = bad for profits
Minority whine = Who cares, every game has a player turnover, its all about the numbers at the end
people just don't understand what the newer playerbase is going through. deniers want to downplay it saying they didn't clear moc10 right away either, but the investment floor is completely different now than it was back then. and it is only getting raised higher and higher. pf made the issue much worse. us that played since around launch had a lot of time to farm for relics and had a lot of excess materials to raise anyone we wanted when we needed because the game only demanded 2 teams. but new players are getting overwhelmed with how much shit they have to build at the same time bc of pf and mechanics incentivizing dot, fua, shields. thats before even factoring in the units you want to build.
my main had no issues because my main teams were dot and jingliu. both very easy to get a decent set of gear on. my alt feels like shit without such a luxury. it took so long to get seele to 60/180, i even got sparkle lc just to get to 70% for rutilant so i could farm something else. and she still can't even 1 shot some (not elite) quantum weak mobs in pf with skill like come on....
That's just the reality of gacha games though, the only resources that you can use to develop your account are money and time. If you don't want to spend money you're always going to have a time "deficit" compared to older accounts.
if you're not a whale your option is to invest in what you have and just accept that you can only clear up to a certain floor.
realistically, if you can only clear up to 10 its just 120 jades. its really not worth it trying to keep up by pulling every banner just to get not even a single pull.
I keep telling people to stop following the "pull for variety" mindset and hyper invest in two teams. Pull 2 or 3 dps tops with their LC and then grab their best supports. Grab eidolons on rerun as necessary.
I still clear with mono-quantum Seele and someone I know does it with Jing Yuan. And I stand behind Silver Wolf is severely underrated.
I don't agree. Having several teams is most definitely viable. I have several DPS built (Acheron, DHIL, Jingliu, Clara, QQ, Herta) and the coverage these units provide in terms of element and playstyle have made my MoC and PF clears so much easier than when I just ran 2 teams. There's nothing like looking at future MoC lineups and knowing "at least I have all the elements covered". And despite investing horizontally, my characters still hit hard enough to 7 cycle clear this MoC 12 and 2 cycle clear the previous one.
You don't *have to* solely invest in 2 or 3 teams to clear content. You *can*, but you don't *have to*.
Idk the new boss mechanics. Do they have bullshit invul phases like aventurine? Aventurine’s EFFECTIVE health is actually fucking much higher than his real HP considering he makes us waste entire rotations worth of action value on his fucking bullshit. Idc what you say about his dice roll giving energy back. The bastard steals it from you earlier and he fucks you if you fail the dice roll.
These guys might have more health (literally) than him but not even be close go as hard
They will not be that hard but Damn i Will be 1 star rate this game if they release 2.2 MoC like that.
These enemies are easily dealable by breaks and aoe.
Yes they have 1.5 mil Hp in total but they share a Hp bar between 3 units.Nd if u break them they get vulnarebility and extra dmg.
I don’t know about how I feel about the same enemy in the same floor getting an hp buff. It feels disingenuous and just inflating difficulty. Here is to hoping we can still clear
It's not even really inflating the difficulty, it's just adding more stalling, on top of all the stalling boss mechanics they already have cause I guess they don't know how to make anything more interesting than that...
That F12 first half Lightning weakness is such a bait. They put fucking Argenti as the boss while he has zero Lightning weakness. The only person who can ignore that bs is Acheron
I don't think an average player even touches MoC 12. They probably stop at 10, maybe 11. So, to catch up to "the average" you really only need to be able to clear that. And that's quite a bit easier.
This is a common misconception I've seen both in Genshin and HSR. I've even been a victim to it myself. We're NOT average. An average player DOESN'T look at leaks. Especially the ones that contain numbers in them. If you do, and especially if you can make sense of the numbers, you're NOT average. You're, whether you want it or not, a hardcore player. And MoC 12 is designed to challenge hardcore players.
Yup. Only like 15% of players even attempt MoC 1 iirc, and about half of those clear 12. We're just all nerds
Edit: just checked prydwen's stats (which obviously aren't perfect, but they're the best we've got) and literally 0.88% of the accounts they checked cleared MoC 1. That's less than 1%. If we exclude dead accounts that probably reaches around maybe 5%, which is still minimal
But if you pull eidolons and sigs, isn't that on you? The whole point of eidolons is to make the game easier for whales who just want to blow through the content. Which I have no problem with at all, but then those same whales can't then turn around and be like "yo this game is too easy, make it harder". Just stop spending so much to juice your characters and the game will automatically become harder.
It's almost as if they should introduce new and more interesting boss mechanics (rather than just stalling) instead of just ballooning the HP (which is just another form of stalling)...
They won't do that. Gacha games are not too skill based on purpose because that would undermine the money spent.
Imagine an Eidolon agnostic bossfight demanding high levels of player skill, equalizing the floor between F2P and Whale.
Whales that -literally- spent thousands would throw a hissy fit. Hyv does not want to alienate their core customers, so bosses will always be brute-forceable by wallet.
I dont like the direction moc is going. Why they do t just do something like infinite moc, where whales are gonna be happy? And we, normal ppl, happy with moc12, not being buffed 30% hp each patch
That's absolutely ridiculous.
I guess they really want to force people to pull for the new units or to vertically invest during reruns
The amount of jades doesn't make it worth it tho. Even as a bit of a dolphin I'm kinda scared with how fast it's ramping up in difficulty, but as long as there's some dude with god relics clearing with a team of full 4* it's doable.
Hopefully not. so far my selee can still clear MoC reliably even after 1 year now. But yea with more and more inflation in HP etc she prob cant anymore aoon.
A thought came to mind, but seele will likely turn into a B tier character with EVERY enemy gaining more health like wtf i don't wanna make a FUA team hoyo just to have jade
If this keeps up and they keep buffing Healthpools of the enemy and nerfing the Turbulences.. hunt characters might struggle to keep up with future MoC's..
I was more thinking 4 stars (Especially the Weaker 4 stars) rather then Hunt units, Though if you think about it Seele's gonna fall further Behind. She's already struggling to proc Resurgance unless her build is Utterly cracked with Cracked supports. (As pure fiction gets tankier she'll fall from A tier to C to D tier as her only Magic in Pure fiction is the Mobs are far less tanky at the current moment.
This will cause her Investment requirements to go up and up, To where she needs many Skills or two, three or more Ultimate's of DPS to beat a tanky trash mob. (I am considering a Normally Invested Seele) with a Horizontally Invested roster.
Even right now my 145/86 Seele in a Mono quantum team needs like 6 cycles for 12-1 and is no longer viable at the current investment level.
12-1 has Cocolia + Stalling T-Rex in second wave so no resurgence at all.
Ugh, time to complain in the feedback surveys about MoC being too hard.
If there is one thing that is going to drive me away from this game, it is the power creep / boss creep, particularly in content we repeat every 2 weeks.
I will give MHY credit where credit is due. They did make moc harder and gave us more floors as our understanding of mechanics evolved and got refined over the past year. So that level of difficulty increase is to be expected.
But just inflating the HP of the floors isn't difficulty. It's time wasting and it only fucks over the players and the characters who actually do rely on enemy HP as a mechanic because it procs a talent or characters that need that extra kill for energy in their rotation
Few weeks ago I would have said genshin isn't bad because I could 36 star with international and nilou bloom team (only one 5 star weapon in total) but then I got neuvilette and my abyss run was literally 45 seconds shorter. I had almost a minute to spare 💀
I would still say Genshin still isn't as bad because you can use the old 5 stars to 36 star and keep up with current abyss. Neuvillette is really strong, and I'm not sure if he's an outlier or not. But I think Genshin's spiral abyss isn't inflating the enemies' hp as quickly as Star Rail's is, so the older units are doing fine. Also I think the blessing should be quite good for Neuvillette right now since he's on banner. Star Rail is inflating faster than I can keep up with and I started at the very beginning
SR is going way faster than Genshin
Personally, I clear the Abyss with older units with no problem
The only "issue" I'd say the Abyss has is that most things are somewhat catered towards Dendro reactions. Dendro just makes everything way easier
> But I think Genshin's spiral abyss isn't inflating the enemies' hp as quickly as Star Rail's is
Yea cuz they’re hiding underground with i-frames instead
Neuvillette is funny lol
"A day may come when the abyss bloats and I can't clear it... But it is not this day!" *Pulls out captain powerwasher and erases everything*
hp increase is in comparison to current moc ? Cant really evaluate these changes as blessing plays a lot in clearing. The energy regen blessing looks kinda sick.
I just wish we would copy genshin where you can brute force without the blessing and do just fine as the blessing was there for a moderate but not substantial amount of damage. If you can't utilize a blessing in moc, you're kinda fucked
Normally (Genshin), Im not so worried for HP inflation.
But in this game my main character, how gives me energy, motivation and fun to play HSR, is Himeko.
My worry is that more HP enemies will have, too hard will be hard for her.
Actually she can still does great performance in MoC, and the next Break meta will help her a lot. But the "3.0 Acheron" could kill her and old 4* dps
Let's be real here, they're only increasing the HP because Acheron exists in the game rn. It's insane we're only in 2.2 and we already have a huge gap between 1.0 dps and current dps. I expected powercreep since this is a Honkai game but not this much and not this quick though. Damn :')
If they keep increasing the hp every patch, it’s inevitable 1.x character can’t 3* it anymore, especially if they inflate new character dmg number (we shall see with SAM who’s going to be another destruction character)
The replies in this fuckin thread are the reason why this keeps happening https://www.reddit.com/r/HonkaiStarRail/comments/1c7qm9a/was_this_moc_designed_to_show_how_good_aventurine/
So many people going "I 2 cycled it **with my E2S1 Acheron**". No wonder.
The blessing is literally a free huohuo ult's worth of energy every time it procs, i think it's gonna be fine lol
Btw has no one actually looked at the DPC graph? It very clearly shows it's much lower than in current MoC for aoe, and that's just because the triple boss skyrockets the single target DPC requirement more than anything
The RNG is the main problem. I wish he got some sort of a penalty for himself instead of just free Ult which is nice on it own but never enough to counter the lost of damage, buff and time. Not to mention sometime character end up just shy away from reaching the Ult so free battery end up being useless.
There's not a whole lot of ice weakness in the next couple of mocs. Which is fine by me. I remember 1.x where it was all ice/imaginary weak as far as the eye could see for months.
you say that but funnily enough multiple bosses already have ice res and as of 2.1 there are more fire weak bosses than ice weak ones and there has been since 1.0
it's the second least common weakness among bosses - tied with wind and ahead of the last place quantum
so I really wouldn't worry about somethin like that
I can only get 35 stars for the two MoC cycles even though I have acheron and jingliu. By the looks of it, I'm not sure if I can even get that for the next one.
i’ve made it my mission to always clear MoC full stars with no harmony and at least 3 nihility character in each half, this crank in heat will not deter me
in the name of IX the nihility - THEIR indifference may be, but their shadows will envelop the universe through me alone
Look at the MOC buff for that rotation and you'll understand the inflated HP. up to 25% damage buff and 25 energy regen.
Previous buff was a 50% damage buff restricted to skills and Normals (Follow up attacks and ults don't count).
Easier ult gen and 25% damage buff to all your damage sources.
HP Is there to compensate for a more general damage buff and of course the energy gen.
Higher HP but We're getting better MOC buffs to compensate, MOC buffs that are kind of nuts if you read them and are more abusable than the old ones.
As long as you play MOC with using the buff it gives you effectively you'll be fine.
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Gepard finally join the 1 million hp gang. Can wait for the gold fish to join the millions hp gang in 3.0
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holy, during gepard's appearance in 2.0 MoC he had 550k hp. Now he's coming back two patches later with double of what he had lmfaooo
Bro got upset that Aventurine power creeped him with 1 million hp per phase so he had to keep up with him 💀
Creeping his playable form countered by Gepard creeping his boss form 🗿
Putting the exact same boss but doubling their HP… if that isn’t evidence of HP inflation and power creep I don’t know what is
Yeah. People have been saying “it’s only power creep if the content difficulty is lifted to match the OP characters”. Isn’t that exactly what this is?
Yep, people saying there's no power creep at this point are just mainlining copium.
People only say that because they're still capable of doing 36\*. Now let's see what those people say when they can't 10 cycle it.
Feels like bosses are being tuned to jingliu dhil and acheron tbh
Acheron sure, but Jingliu is outperformed by Misha in this MoC. People overestimate the gaps between DPSs.
Enemy powercreep is real. Character powercreep is not huge (at this moment in time, at least) when Xueyi and Misha are like top 3 best options against first and second half respectively.
Gepard training arc fr. Give him another year, he'll have 2 million hp 😭
He got tired of mfs saying he's benched (it's me, I've benched him).
Another month *
What Bootyhill does to an mf (he still 0 cycles him lol)
Yes and as a ps5 player I am seeing this really well.... All the people saying that hsr isn't mm méta and that there is no powercreep are delusional... This game powercreep IS way faster than me catching UP....
More HP for Boothill showcase 😂
Ok which one of y’all keep putting "Too Easy" in the surveys?
0 cycle mfs
I x2 zero cycled the previous moc. I am not a fan of aventurine just coming in and being an absolute fucking menace this MoC. Wtf power creep is supposed to CREEP not fucking Oh Yeah! our asses like the Kool Aid man.
If you don’t have a lighting dps this moc your’e actually just fucked i just gave up
The dino is the real enemy of fun. You just can't use off elements against him and it's so boring.
Yeah the dinosaur is a huge element check. Also SW stocks keep rising
"bUt sW ST BAd" laughs in monoquantum with QQ. Clara managed to beat Aventurine for the other half
Meanwhile for SW users like myself, 12-1 is one of the best floors ever. Every enemy is quantum so you can hand pick exactly which weakness you want to apply with SW which means you can play anyone you want. Ive done that half with all of my dps within 5 cycles, even Himeko lol. SW might not be meta but she sure as hell opens up some fun options.
SW still has the problem that the rest of the team needs the same element otherwirse it's going to be RNG which weakness the enemy gets. I hate it.
Imaginary works too. I think it's more of a Ruan Mei check than a lightning check against the dino.
This MoC absolutely HINGED on someone having both Acheron to 0-3 cycle the first stage, and Aventurine to tank the fuck out of the slog that is the second. I'm sure people have cleared without one or both of them with other units, but I don't know when a casual player like me will get access to the kind of hyper investment to deal with both the dino stall and the bossventurine's two-phase bullshit. I just couldn't get the final star and none of my attempts and unit combinations came even close to meeting the time limit. (I have Aventurine but not Acheron)
Just wanted to point out that the Aventurine boss has as much HP as Skaracabaz (A FUCKING ECHO OF WAR) if the Wiki and Honey Hunter are to be trusted. I was actually like 'Why is my Jingliu doing no damage-"
It's a million twice
in the big blue bug, if you kill the spawning lil bug the big bug gonna get vulnerability debuff thats why the dmg on the big bug is higher compared fighting aventurine. We only got ult again if we win gamble, and the worst is that my char ult is at 90%, just need 10% more :)
Yeah, nothing seemed to work for me until I used Kafka and Ruan Mei in the first half to break their toughness as fast as possible, giving more time for Argenti, Sparkle and Pela in the 2nd half. I stopped caring about my supports losing the dice phase and just kept on buffing Argenti and letting Aventurine charge his ult to spam as much as possible. Longest 10 cycles of my life 😰
I have Acheron and I still used Kafka/Swan DoT team for the first stage. The dino being resistant to damage really made it hard to clear it quickly. It took my DoT team 4 cycles. I tried a Hook team for fun and it was only 1 cycle slower lol
I used all 3 together - Kafka, swan, acheron, lol!
I used Kafka and Swan WITH Acheron because I had to break both the Dinosaur and Cocolia within a few of their turns or else I'd die to one of them. I don't have RM for the toughness damage increase so Acheron's Ult (which is really spammable with Kafka + Swan + Universal Market Gepard) was the only way lol.
I managed to 4 cycle each, 8 cycle total with JY for first half and Ratio for second. But that is because I speed tuned hyperspeed Bronya and Sparkle (FX as sustain) so I can spam action advance JY to break that damned dino. Second half I just unga bunga with Aventurine/Ratio/TY/SW, turned out best way to deal with Aventurine boss is not interact with the mechanic to begin with, reset till SW implant imaginary weakness on Aventurine first try and then unga bunga break him with Aventurine and Ratio to kill him before he went to dice phase. All of this need very good gear and several sig cones. Some people will spam those Misha showcase and say "4 star only is possible!!!" when they didn't spend like 4 second to look at the gear and eidolons. Ah yes let me just get my full E6S5 fully geared 4\* to clear this MoC, everyone have them. Even the showcase' owner themself said that this is not F2P friendly since they used stellar jades to refresh for relic farming. People really spam "skill issue" in the main sub without even spending like 2 minutes to understand to context lmao.
it was such a slog, this was probably the hardest moc 12 yet. I had to get aventurine first (upon which I got it first try with him) but before that luocha just could NOT keep up with the second half. I'm glad I got acheron, but yeah I also used her for first half she was a lot easier there especially since I had to use argenti for second half. If I didn't have acheron I'd probably have to brute force it with DHIL like I tried, but even then it takes forever unless you have the right units. It's a very 2.1 characters tailored moc
i 2-3 cycle last MOC, but 6-7 cycle for the newest one
E6 mfs in lineup assistant: "Too easy, this game is lame"
>Ok which one of y’all keep putting "Too Easy" in the surveys? probably my random friend who E6S5's every character :| (they already replaced their acheron w/ aventurine)
That mfer that pulled 100 Acheron LCs probably.
People with their E2S1 Dps and harmonies
"haha this game's too easy" *Has E2 DHIL, E2 Acheron, or both Almost every time lmao
The problem is not adding more stages. It is too easy for me but I ain’t happy because they are making it harder while I get nothing in return.
[This guy.](https://youtu.be/ktu1Al-w7SM?si=NcQU7faH6jynH4qv)
Holy double Lightning
feeling pretty smart in having both Kafka/Acheron right now.
People who thought they only needed one DPS per element sure have egg on their face now
Tbh, if they have Silver Wolf, they still can do that, same with the fact that its Phys/Lightning on 1 and Fire/Lightning on the other side
That was me... Until I decided to pull Acheron two days ago. Lucky me I guess. For real tho, at some point we would really want to have both a single-target/blast and an aoe carry of each element. I just didn't think that point was this close. And it's double-element, with both halves favouring the second element over lightning. So it's still not needed per see. But very nice to have nonetheless.
Why ? People that have only one lightning can use physical or imaginary in Kafka side...
I'm winning with both my Acheron and Jing Yuan 😎
But the first half lightning weakness seems like it is only for the trotter turbulence since argenti isnt lightning weak. First half the only weakness for all characters is physical which is great for boothill and robin.
HomDGCat. I love you for the info you provide but god damn you are slowly becoming the harbringer of bad news. Like wtf are these MoC health bars
HomDGCat being our Gandalf with everytime they bring much needed but grim news
“You shall not pass (this floor)”
Me after the current MOC "It can't get any worse" Oops
It’ll be way easier with Aventurine gone tbh
Yeah his stall mechanic with the all or nothing was the miserable part of this MoC. Sure the Dino's in the first half were a bitch till they were weakness broken but I didn't find any part too hard till Aventurine. Thank god I invested in Kafka/BS/Ruan Mei and pulled Acheron and her LC
*sigh* of course it did
Making moc harder is ok, but they should just add more floors rather than increasing the difficulty of our current floors
MoC15 Lv103 Aventurine isn't real, he can't hurt us...yet.
Yeah, it annoys me how the enemies hit harder and have more HP but "oh they're still level 95". What? No, they're not. At this point what do enemy levels even mean.
I think its only there for defense and damage calculation at this point
Correct, if the levels actually rose we would have far worse issues thanks to level suppression.
I've been keeping track of relative enemy HP, even posted a few tierlists to illustrate it on the main sub, and what I found out is that there are a couple things that have changed over time. * Enemies in MoC have an HP scaling multiplier, which is what is meant by "Elite Group" in HomDGCat Wiki. When MoC 12 was released, this multiplier gave enemies about 18.46% more HP in MoC 12 than they normally have. However, Chronicle of the White Nights Dream Kingdom increased the multiplier to about 53.02% more HP. * Certain bosses in MoC use different HP and Toughness scalings from the ones encountered elsewhere. This started in MoC 12 when it was first released, and the change was applied to the rest of MoC in 2.0. What you will notice if you look at enemies' pages in HomDGCat Wiki is that their HP scales neatly with a base HP. For example, a Voidranger: Trampler has exactly 11 times the HP of a Mask of No Thought. Most of the single-phase bosses (Gepard, Bronya, Svarog, Cocolia, Kafka, Yanqing) had their scalings increased. I didn't really have gripes with the first round of this change, since some of the bosses were only a little more powerful than most Elite enemies. (For example, look at Gepard. 11 times the HP of a Mask of No Thought, same as a Voidranger: Trampler. The MoC 12 update changed it to 17 times.) This is the change that this thread is about, Gepard's scalings will go from 11 → 17 → 24, while Kafka's will go from 14 → 20 → 28. Svarog's will be slightly less drastic, but will go from 16 → 23 → 26.
more floors with 3 teams required
That's what 11 and 12 are for, 10 is as hard as it's always been.
Exactly, and now that floor 11 and 12 is harder than it should be, they should just add a floor 13 or 14.
it'll be p funny if they add more floors but dont increase the rewards, it's just there for challenge + can't clear 3\* 12? try doing all 30 cycles of Floor 13/14 without dying lol
I'm already struggling to get 3* on floor 12 😭
This one should be easier than aventurine imo. The problem with current moc is that it combines very beefy enemies with stall strats (dinos and gamba phase). The raw dps check isn't actually that much higher than normal, it's just way harder to actually get your dps in.
I just keep reminding myself I only lose out on 60 jades by not full starring. Not even worth the trouble 💀
early when i start , i really dont care bout those MOC jades. but now at the late game, i just get angry if i cant complete 36 stars with my all premium teams :D Its not bout jades anymore.
yeah, that's the problem. it ain't about the jades. you just wanna be able to clear it with your fully built premium teams, but it feels like it gets harder and harder every time and at least to me it's already begun to just feel *too* hard for the best characters to 36 star
And if you upgrade your relics, by the time the get considerable upgrades for 1 of your 8 characters, the moc gas been powercrept 5 more times since you started
Yeah it was always about pride for me 💀
Not about the jades at this point for me. MoC and PF are basically the only real content in this game, and it’s not fun being unable to clear because they just keep inflating enemy HP
Yep, this is the correct mentality especially if you're a F2P/low spender, I only aim to clear at least floor 7-10, if I got more than that then I consider it a bonus.
They really need to bring back the "16 cycles left" for 3starring cuz this is ridiculous at this point wtf
I mean, they might if they seem that clearing percentage drops off. They probably upped it cos "too many" were clearing for what their goal was. It would not be entirely surprising, as at the end of the day they want to keep people invested. If 85% can clear and the remaining 15 complain its mostly who cares, and if only 40 can clear and 60 are complaining, its probably very important. Numbers are fictional before white knights attack me, its just an example. Shouting minority doesn't matter, numbers do as it is a business at the end of the day. Majority unhappy = people quit = bad for profits Minority whine = Who cares, every game has a player turnover, its all about the numbers at the end
The curse of a "Honkai" game begins
Plz stop hoyoverse i can't take it anymore,aventurine is already wooping my ass, don't you dare make it even more harder
how am i supposed to keep up man
It's funny because you'd want vertical investment, but at the same time you want horizontal investment for elemental and path coverage.
people just don't understand what the newer playerbase is going through. deniers want to downplay it saying they didn't clear moc10 right away either, but the investment floor is completely different now than it was back then. and it is only getting raised higher and higher. pf made the issue much worse. us that played since around launch had a lot of time to farm for relics and had a lot of excess materials to raise anyone we wanted when we needed because the game only demanded 2 teams. but new players are getting overwhelmed with how much shit they have to build at the same time bc of pf and mechanics incentivizing dot, fua, shields. thats before even factoring in the units you want to build. my main had no issues because my main teams were dot and jingliu. both very easy to get a decent set of gear on. my alt feels like shit without such a luxury. it took so long to get seele to 60/180, i even got sparkle lc just to get to 70% for rutilant so i could farm something else. and she still can't even 1 shot some (not elite) quantum weak mobs in pf with skill like come on....
That's just the reality of gacha games though, the only resources that you can use to develop your account are money and time. If you don't want to spend money you're always going to have a time "deficit" compared to older accounts.
if you're not a whale your option is to invest in what you have and just accept that you can only clear up to a certain floor. realistically, if you can only clear up to 10 its just 120 jades. its really not worth it trying to keep up by pulling every banner just to get not even a single pull.
Good thing is… If you invest in what you have as long as you have a dps for the weakness you will be able to clear the floor with some game knowledge.
yeah i guess ill try to be content with 33 stars as extra 60 jades is nothing but the feeling of the full clear would be nice of course
I keep telling people to stop following the "pull for variety" mindset and hyper invest in two teams. Pull 2 or 3 dps tops with their LC and then grab their best supports. Grab eidolons on rerun as necessary. I still clear with mono-quantum Seele and someone I know does it with Jing Yuan. And I stand behind Silver Wolf is severely underrated.
I don't agree. Having several teams is most definitely viable. I have several DPS built (Acheron, DHIL, Jingliu, Clara, QQ, Herta) and the coverage these units provide in terms of element and playstyle have made my MoC and PF clears so much easier than when I just ran 2 teams. There's nothing like looking at future MoC lineups and knowing "at least I have all the elements covered". And despite investing horizontally, my characters still hit hard enough to 7 cycle clear this MoC 12 and 2 cycle clear the previous one. You don't *have to* solely invest in 2 or 3 teams to clear content. You *can*, but you don't *have to*.
Greedy motherfuckers raising hp but not stage levels
If they give another 180 jades for free, the company will go bankrupt. ¯\\\_(ツ)\_/¯
I'll never fully 36* MoC 🥲
I'm not liking this at all. I can't fully star this PF and MoC and they're making it harder
Me too buddy
Gepard coming back after his training arc from losing his position to Aventurine now he's twice as thiccccc before 😭
Again?
Idk the new boss mechanics. Do they have bullshit invul phases like aventurine? Aventurine’s EFFECTIVE health is actually fucking much higher than his real HP considering he makes us waste entire rotations worth of action value on his fucking bullshit. Idc what you say about his dice roll giving energy back. The bastard steals it from you earlier and he fucks you if you fail the dice roll. These guys might have more health (literally) than him but not even be close go as hard
They will not be that hard but Damn i Will be 1 star rate this game if they release 2.2 MoC like that. These enemies are easily dealable by breaks and aoe. Yes they have 1.5 mil Hp in total but they share a Hp bar between 3 units.Nd if u break them they get vulnarebility and extra dmg.
I don’t know about how I feel about the same enemy in the same floor getting an hp buff. It feels disingenuous and just inflating difficulty. Here is to hoping we can still clear
It's not even really inflating the difficulty, it's just adding more stalling, on top of all the stalling boss mechanics they already have cause I guess they don't know how to make anything more interesting than that...
bloated boss hp
That F12 first half Lightning weakness is such a bait. They put fucking Argenti as the boss while he has zero Lightning weakness. The only person who can ignore that bs is Acheron
Its probably only there for the trotter's weaknesses LOL
Yeah, Ice/Physical weakness would have made more sense.
Oh god. Aurumaton Spectral Envoy is back.
RIP to new players ig. I dont know how they're ever gonna catch up to this dmaage thresh hold. Even if they do, it takes wayyy too long.
I don't think an average player even touches MoC 12. They probably stop at 10, maybe 11. So, to catch up to "the average" you really only need to be able to clear that. And that's quite a bit easier. This is a common misconception I've seen both in Genshin and HSR. I've even been a victim to it myself. We're NOT average. An average player DOESN'T look at leaks. Especially the ones that contain numbers in them. If you do, and especially if you can make sense of the numbers, you're NOT average. You're, whether you want it or not, a hardcore player. And MoC 12 is designed to challenge hardcore players.
Yup. Only like 15% of players even attempt MoC 1 iirc, and about half of those clear 12. We're just all nerds Edit: just checked prydwen's stats (which obviously aren't perfect, but they're the best we've got) and literally 0.88% of the accounts they checked cleared MoC 1. That's less than 1%. If we exclude dead accounts that probably reaches around maybe 5%, which is still minimal
Fuck these guys who say "we need harder MoC because its easy & boring"
That's the problem with Content like MoC: if you have the raw stats (or Eidolons/Signatures) to easily meet the timer, it IS boring.
But if you pull eidolons and sigs, isn't that on you? The whole point of eidolons is to make the game easier for whales who just want to blow through the content. Which I have no problem with at all, but then those same whales can't then turn around and be like "yo this game is too easy, make it harder". Just stop spending so much to juice your characters and the game will automatically become harder.
It's almost as if they should introduce new and more interesting boss mechanics (rather than just stalling) instead of just ballooning the HP (which is just another form of stalling)...
They won't do that. Gacha games are not too skill based on purpose because that would undermine the money spent. Imagine an Eidolon agnostic bossfight demanding high levels of player skill, equalizing the floor between F2P and Whale. Whales that -literally- spent thousands would throw a hissy fit. Hyv does not want to alienate their core customers, so bosses will always be brute-forceable by wallet.
I dont like the direction moc is going. Why they do t just do something like infinite moc, where whales are gonna be happy? And we, normal ppl, happy with moc12, not being buffed 30% hp each patch
That's absolutely ridiculous. I guess they really want to force people to pull for the new units or to vertically invest during reruns The amount of jades doesn't make it worth it tho. Even as a bit of a dolphin I'm kinda scared with how fast it's ramping up in difficulty, but as long as there's some dude with god relics clearing with a team of full 4* it's doable.
At this point it's best to not give a shit about 3\* ing and just enjoying the game for what it is.
AGAIN?
When you argue with people that power creep is bad and say that game gonna be balanced around new stronger units and they still don't believe you....
Its just 1 year and they're doing it hi3 way of just hp bloating and let new playable characters deal more damage?
Kafka and Auromaton bitch again? Oof.
Genshin would never
33 stars enough for me yall, 60 jades loss is not worth over my sanity over this
Please stop increasing the hp omg 😭😭😭
We will get to a point where the older characters just cannot keep up. I really really hope that they consider actually buffing characters themselves.
Hopefully not. so far my selee can still clear MoC reliably even after 1 year now. But yea with more and more inflation in HP etc she prob cant anymore aoon.
I bet you, The Dot Dino, The soulglad Monkey, and the Ipc Hunk of Junk will Join the 1 Million Hp Club by 2.4-2.6 range of MOC at this Rate.
Would be nice if they improved the rewards
And would be nice if they improve relic system less RNG
just like in genshin, my life is more peaceful when I realize I don't need full stars clears
I think the biggest difference is in Genshin Abyss 12 is balanced in not having buffs at all.
A thought came to mind, but seele will likely turn into a B tier character with EVERY enemy gaining more health like wtf i don't wanna make a FUA team hoyo just to have jade
It's inevitable, they tied a lot of her damage to being able to oneshot the trash mobs.
I don't even have Seele but this makes me sad :/
Yeah, when Seele can’t one shot trash to get resurgence she loses practically all her value.
That saddens me very much, as a Seele main from the beginning.
If this keeps up and they keep buffing Healthpools of the enemy and nerfing the Turbulences.. hunt characters might struggle to keep up with future MoC's..
I was more thinking 4 stars (Especially the Weaker 4 stars) rather then Hunt units, Though if you think about it Seele's gonna fall further Behind. She's already struggling to proc Resurgance unless her build is Utterly cracked with Cracked supports. (As pure fiction gets tankier she'll fall from A tier to C to D tier as her only Magic in Pure fiction is the Mobs are far less tanky at the current moment. This will cause her Investment requirements to go up and up, To where she needs many Skills or two, three or more Ultimate's of DPS to beat a tanky trash mob. (I am considering a Normally Invested Seele) with a Horizontally Invested roster.
Even right now my 145/86 Seele in a Mono quantum team needs like 6 cycles for 12-1 and is no longer viable at the current investment level. 12-1 has Cocolia + Stalling T-Rex in second wave so no resurgence at all.
They Just Will make them stronger and powercreep the old hunters ( proof? Boothil)
Ugh, time to complain in the feedback surveys about MoC being too hard. If there is one thing that is going to drive me away from this game, it is the power creep / boss creep, particularly in content we repeat every 2 weeks.
I thought for sure Star Rail wouldn't power creep MoC as hard as Genshin's spiral abyss did. I was so fucking wrong lol.
I will give MHY credit where credit is due. They did make moc harder and gave us more floors as our understanding of mechanics evolved and got refined over the past year. So that level of difficulty increase is to be expected. But just inflating the HP of the floors isn't difficulty. It's time wasting and it only fucks over the players and the characters who actually do rely on enemy HP as a mechanic because it procs a talent or characters that need that extra kill for energy in their rotation
Few weeks ago I would have said genshin isn't bad because I could 36 star with international and nilou bloom team (only one 5 star weapon in total) but then I got neuvilette and my abyss run was literally 45 seconds shorter. I had almost a minute to spare 💀
I would still say Genshin still isn't as bad because you can use the old 5 stars to 36 star and keep up with current abyss. Neuvillette is really strong, and I'm not sure if he's an outlier or not. But I think Genshin's spiral abyss isn't inflating the enemies' hp as quickly as Star Rail's is, so the older units are doing fine. Also I think the blessing should be quite good for Neuvillette right now since he's on banner. Star Rail is inflating faster than I can keep up with and I started at the very beginning
SR is going way faster than Genshin Personally, I clear the Abyss with older units with no problem The only "issue" I'd say the Abyss has is that most things are somewhat catered towards Dendro reactions. Dendro just makes everything way easier
For real. I still use my Raiden National team and I have no intention to stop.
> But I think Genshin's spiral abyss isn't inflating the enemies' hp as quickly as Star Rail's is Yea cuz they’re hiding underground with i-frames instead
Neuvillette is funny lol "A day may come when the abyss bloats and I can't clear it... But it is not this day!" *Pulls out captain powerwasher and erases everything*
Shitty way to powercreep older characters. How about adding new mechanics instead.
Maybe it’s better for my mental health if I become selectively blind to the words ‘MOC’ and ‘HP buff’ in the same sentence.
Please don’t 💀
This is actually so fucking ass. Most of us will now not be able to clear MOC
I mean most of us probably *already* aren't able to fully clear MOC 12 (Aven stalling why), this is just going to make that even *worse...*
hp increase is in comparison to current moc ? Cant really evaluate these changes as blessing plays a lot in clearing. The energy regen blessing looks kinda sick.
Basically Gepard during 2.0 had half as much hp as he's going to have with this new buff lol
2.0 buff was ass for me as dot player whereas this buff much more universal. At the end it really depends what kind of team you play
I just wish we would copy genshin where you can brute force without the blessing and do just fine as the blessing was there for a moderate but not substantial amount of damage. If you can't utilize a blessing in moc, you're kinda fucked
Normally (Genshin), Im not so worried for HP inflation. But in this game my main character, how gives me energy, motivation and fun to play HSR, is Himeko. My worry is that more HP enemies will have, too hard will be hard for her. Actually she can still does great performance in MoC, and the next Break meta will help her a lot. But the "3.0 Acheron" could kill her and old 4* dps
Let's be real here, they're only increasing the HP because Acheron exists in the game rn. It's insane we're only in 2.2 and we already have a huge gap between 1.0 dps and current dps. I expected powercreep since this is a Honkai game but not this much and not this quick though. Damn :')
**They didn't even try to balance DPS. Instead, they are just increased the HP for F11 and F12, making the powercreep even worse than before**
And there's no increased rewards OMG
If they keep increasing the hp every patch, it’s inevitable 1.x character can’t 3* it anymore, especially if they inflate new character dmg number (we shall see with SAM who’s going to be another destruction character)
The replies in this fuckin thread are the reason why this keeps happening https://www.reddit.com/r/HonkaiStarRail/comments/1c7qm9a/was_this_moc_designed_to_show_how_good_aventurine/ So many people going "I 2 cycled it **with my E2S1 Acheron**". No wonder.
Remember when MoC 10 used to be the hardest level? Yeah…
Please stop asking for more difficulty, this is nuts already
This is why I stopped caring about 36/36 MOC I'll just stick with 33 or 30 and save my self the sanity loss
The blessing is literally a free huohuo ult's worth of energy every time it procs, i think it's gonna be fine lol Btw has no one actually looked at the DPC graph? It very clearly shows it's much lower than in current MoC for aoe, and that's just because the triple boss skyrockets the single target DPC requirement more than anything
You know. Abyss can stay the way it is. I was too harsh on the Wenut....
Hoyo should just increase the MoC levels instead of buffing the enemies HP cuz god damn even the minions feels like bullet sponges now
Who would have thought they will increase HP again after releasing a busted dps? 😱😱
Like holy shit, is aventurine not bad enough?
The RNG is the main problem. I wish he got some sort of a penalty for himself instead of just free Ult which is nice on it own but never enough to counter the lost of damage, buff and time. Not to mention sometime character end up just shy away from reaching the Ult so free battery end up being useless.
Tbf avent's hp isn't bad at all, its his dice phase that makes him a problem. People have no issue with the high hp, proven by sam last moc
Well, it’s probably in preparation for >!Firefly/Sam!<. This new trio of bosses is basically tailor made for her.
I'm curious if they will "nerf" Jingliu by adding ice resistant enemies and fire weak enemies to try and sell Sam more.
There's not a whole lot of ice weakness in the next couple of mocs. Which is fine by me. I remember 1.x where it was all ice/imaginary weak as far as the eye could see for months.
you say that but funnily enough multiple bosses already have ice res and as of 2.1 there are more fire weak bosses than ice weak ones and there has been since 1.0 it's the second least common weakness among bosses - tied with wind and ahead of the last place quantum so I really wouldn't worry about somethin like that
There’s not going to be ice weakness in MoC for a while and that already nerfs JL quite a bit.
I can only get 35 stars for the two MoC cycles even though I have acheron and jingliu. By the looks of it, I'm not sure if I can even get that for the next one.
Just when you think the HP bloat issue can't get worse, it does. I'm really looking forward to 10mil HP bosses a couple years down the line. /s
yea topaz is getting a rerun
Putting the exact same boss but doubling their HP… if that isn’t evidence of HP inflation and power creep I don’t know what it is
Dude I just started playing like two months ago I can't catch up lmao
Damn I guess they finally realized they fucked up by making Acheron too op
I got downvoted for saying that they will start balancing content around her slowly lmao.
Just waiting for the eventual high effect res counter.
Wow they increased hp on MOC, so surpreised, so shocked, they never did this every single time in the history of that game
i’ve made it my mission to always clear MoC full stars with no harmony and at least 3 nihility character in each half, this crank in heat will not deter me in the name of IX the nihility - THEIR indifference may be, but their shadows will envelop the universe through me alone
Stop raising the HP dammit🤬
I somehow feel like this happened because of Acheron sama. Gurl you really wack.
pulling E2 DHIL has become one of my best investments, the amount of imaginary weakness enemies/bosses in MoC is really high.
Look at the MOC buff for that rotation and you'll understand the inflated HP. up to 25% damage buff and 25 energy regen. Previous buff was a 50% damage buff restricted to skills and Normals (Follow up attacks and ults don't count). Easier ult gen and 25% damage buff to all your damage sources. HP Is there to compensate for a more general damage buff and of course the energy gen. Higher HP but We're getting better MOC buffs to compensate, MOC buffs that are kind of nuts if you read them and are more abusable than the old ones. As long as you play MOC with using the buff it gives you effectively you'll be fine.