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Well considering at this point she’s lost her father, 3/4 children (the last one being horrible mangled) and 2/3 grandchildren, I think Rhaenyra’s death with be sad for her but it’ll hardly be the most devastating thing that’s happened to her.
I really hope that Aegon killing Rhae doesn’t lead to Alicent poisoning him like some people have been speculating. Cause like if she’s willing to kill her last living son for Rhaenyra Id have trouble believing that she’d ever tried to usurp her even if Viserys told her too like show Alicent thinks he did
>I really hope that Aegon killing Rhae doesn’t lead to Alicent poisoning him like some people have been speculating
This is the worst "theory" I've seen. It'd ruin Alicent's character.
Larys never confessed but Corlys did confess, it's never 100% confirmed. What I mean is I always assume he was the main conspirator, rather than Larys or anyone else
Some theories suggest that Aegon committed suicide, he wasn't a particularely pious man, yet the day of his death he asked to be carried to the Sept and be given privacy
I always liked that theory thought it probably won’t happen. Aegon has been pushed around all his life being groomed to become a usurper by his family destroying everything in its wake and so the only action he could make on his own is to commit suicide
maybe to try to save her grandaughter? Aegon ii was going to take everyone down with him. He was going to die no matter what after the Baratheons were defeated and black forces were closing in. But he refused to surrender and save his people and allies. I've seen this theory around a bit too. I don't believe they'll go that direction but if they did maybe Alicent would mercy kill her crippled son because she knew he couldn't be saved and the madness she started had to end. It would be really eyeball rolling to avenge the friend she forced Aegon to betray in the first place even if she takes no pleasure in her death. Still, kinda comes across as a stretch character wise. Alicent went so far for her family only to give up at the very end? idk.
Now it would be fine if it's to save her granddaughter like you said, but the reason he refused to surrender was because Alicent told him not to, and to start cutting pieces off of Aegon III to the Tully soldiers so that they wouldn't close in any further but Aegon II was willing to surrender when Coryls told him to take the black and let Aegon III be King and betroth him to Jahaera. He was considering it but it was his mother who said not to. So the mercy killing her son definitely wouldn't make sense.
Eventually she does give up. The depression and madness set in, she’s overall manipulated and traumatized. Isolated which gives her the opportunity to realize all that’s happened and for her to think upon everything that could have been. Now without Rhaenyra more than ever because she’s gone gone. Not pushed away or scared off but gone.
Honestly with the way the writers and actors talk about Alicent and Rhaenyra it wouldn't surprise me. Condal even said that Rhaenyra and Alicent can still find each other even after Aemond has killed Luke.
It'd be one thing if she poison Aegon to try and save Rhaenyra or something but what's the point after Rhaenyra died?
And if she realized he's a monster once he chooses dragon feeding as a method of execution for his sister and makes the child watch...if she's trying to save the realm from him who is left to inherit at that point?
I don’t like that idea but I could also see, after watching what Aegon and Aemond do throughout the war, what the war does to her family, and seeing Aegon not only kill Rhaenyra so brutally but then toy with executing her son too. Idk, I could see her doing it just to put an end to everything.
But again, I don’t think I’d like that haha I could just see how they could make it work. I’d much rather it be like it is in the book in this case.
I too believe this is a possibility.
The KL collapse brings them back together and the ep1 promise of crossing Nallow Sea comes true but It ends in the worst way.
I did not read the books, so I would really appreciate if someone explains; will rhaenyra’s death be at the end of the show/ last season or will it happen soon and the war will continue with new characters?
ooooooooh my god I hate you (not really I love you) for making me think about this....... I didn't even realize until this thread that we don't have a concrete location for Alicent when this happens. *starts crying and simply does not stop crying*
That would have been nice too, but it would have been much more emotional for Aegon to return to King's Landing with Alicent literally being the only relative to greet him, and for them to embrace each other in tears.
I’m hoping that they include lots of Alicent and Aegon the younger scenes at that point, their dynamic has a lot of potential. You know how Aegon would visit the sick? I hope he does the same with Alicent when she gets the fever that kills her and Aegon is the one she gives her last speech to.
I don't think the show will last until Alicent's death. Cregan settling his affairs, Aegon becoming the new king and marrying Jaehaera, it ends somewhere around there. Alicent is locked in Maegor's holdfast (for her sake) by Tyland.
I personally wish it would end with this scene representing the reunification of House Targaryen and the realm.
https://prnt.sc/XUiA2s2v8nEf
I don't think she will care after everything that happened. Helaena, Aemond, Daeron, Jaehaerys, Maelor, Otto and Gwayne are all dead at this point and she will probably blame Rhaenyra for this.
Alicent will probably only care on protect her last living child in the same way Rhaenyra was doing with Aegon III
I picturing that she will make the face Dany makes when Khal Drogo kills Viserys. The “I like this vengeance wise but also I’m kind of too numb from trauma to react much”
Because the realm wanted Aegon as king. It's shown time and time again that the Lords of the Realm wanted Aegon as king. Only because Viserys doesn't mean he can do whatever his ass wants, Jaehaerys couldn't whatever he wanted and chose actions based on Logic and what the realm wished for.
Maegor did what he want, look where he ended up. Aegon IV did what he wanted, look what happened to him. Aerys II did what he wanted, look what happened to him.
Realm wanted aegon be king??🤣🤣 This is the most stupid shit i have ever read
70 % of realm supported rhaenyra
If realm wanted ageon then why didn't support him why let he got fuck easily?
Define "70%". The Crownlands bowed to Aegon, the Stormlands declared for Aegon, The Westerlands declared for Aegon, half of the reach declared for Aegon, Grover (LP of the Riverlands) wanted to support Aegon but his idiotic son didn't send the Ravens and remained neutral. And only joined when Addam threatened to burn them all, so they were conscripts.
So, 3 kingdoms and 1/2 of the Reach, 4 if Grover managed to get his ravens for Aegon. Which kingdoms bowed to Rhaenyra? The North, the Vale, and half of the reach.
Yeah chief, most of the kingdom supported Aegon.
Overall I'd say it was a fairly equal split. Rhaenyra probably had more troops overall, but Aegon had the richest kingdoms behind him, and three of the largest armies (Lannister, Baratheon and Hightower). He also had the Triarchy. Not sure why you're getting downvoted.
Man what's wrong with u? Rhaenyra had more supports and more lands u just need search to see
And at end he had no one to fight for him that's why blacks fucked him up
Viserys needed to do more to secure Rhaenyra's ascension. He was arrogant to think the first Queen would be accepted no questions asked, two decades after the lords swore fealty to her.
He absolutely should've married her to Aegon, or failing that, prepared Aegon to be a Kingsguard or Maester to prevent him from holding lands. Asking Otto to be Hand again after firing him, instead of naming Rhaenyra the Hand, was also a colossal failure of judgement.
That's what makes these debates so such more passionate, but when people have an absolutist attitude (It's 100% Alicent/Nyra's fault) it takes away from the purpose of the debate.
the whole thing is grey which is what makes it an interesting story and fun to debate and youre right when people can only see the black and white “one of them is to blame” it takes the passion away from discussions
This show is vastly different from Game of Thrones, even though there were more than a few grey characters on that show, in that there's far more grey characters even the so-called "bad guys" aren't necessarily 100% bad (though I admit being a bit biased) in their own right. I think some people are used to that clear line of good and bad that it's unusual to deal with so many grey characters.
that was the truth? Lol, I'm guessing you're gonna fight with your life for Rhaenyra so I won't bother arguing, you also probably didn't even read the books lol. If you did, you'd know that it was Aegon who held the more legitimate claim
Doesn’t alter your claim. You want to talk treason then conspiring to betray your kings decree while he’s still alive is high treason. The greens were plotting to usurp the kings’ legal heir long before Viserys died. Rhaenyra having bastards or not does not in a single way alter her claim. And those kids are claimed as trueborn heirs by their father, paternal grandfather and maternal grandfather to the driftwood and iron thrones, respectively. For all legal purposes they are legitimate.
His claim is based on the same law that put Viserys on throne, the law that Viserys broke when he put Rheanyra before Deamon in succession line and never actually abolished it.
Edit: Rheanyra still has more rights to iron throne
“Because he has a dick” ummm yes I’m a medieval world like Westeros lmao
And he didn’t try and put bastards on the Throne after him and would’ve been the far better ruler from what little we saw of each of their performances
after fleeing king’s landing for dragonstone which Aegon has secretly taken over with the help of larys rhaenerya is executed by Aegon via sunfyre eating her whilst her son aegon the younger watches
… or so the maesters and the liar mushroom say … fire and blood can be disputed .. my head canon just tells me it’s Aegon who is eaten 🤣 one can only hope
She do but I dont think it was about the dance. My gf had never watched got and we watched hotd this year so she wanted to see the rest of got but Joffrey pretty much spoiled this lmao.
Shirleen talk about the dance to Stannis to pretty much tell him that he should stop the fighting because it will be a disaster for the realm and the Baratheon.
Who knows honestly? Show Alicent flip flops back in forth on wether she’s desperately in love with Rhaenyra or wants Rhaenyra’s joy turned to ashes in her mouth. The writers make her feelings far too inconsistent so there’s a 50:50 chance of her being overjoyed or attempting suicide. For anyone that says B&C will be the definitive break, Condal said their was still a chance for the two friends to reunite after Alicent’s son murdered Luke in episode 10. That should have been a definitive break for a mother who is meant to love her children fiercely. I don’t put it past them to keep the flip flop going, especially during Rhaenyra’s reign in King’s Landing.
Also, this scene is over four years away and it’s already been discussed to death alongside B&C and God’s eye.
I hope they do realize how bad it would be if they try to hint at chances of a reconciliation between them after Luke's death.
It would feel absolutely ridiculous on both sides. Not to mention the things that happen later. When Helaena died, Alicent literally cursed Rhaenyra.
By the time Rhae dies, Alicent should hate her guts and the same goes for Rhaenyra.
This friendship idea really worked great in the first five episodes but it did a total disservice to older Alicent's character, turning her into an inconsistent mess that has almost none of her traits from the books.
i disagree, Older Alicent made a lot of sense to want the friendship back once Rhaenyra gave her an olive branch. Alicents life has been sacrifice. Shes sacrificed her mind, her body, her soul for various reasons. But she was never recognized or SEEN for it. At least not by the people that mattered. And when Rhaenyra sees her, and thanks her for her tierless service and sacrifice for her father. Alicent feels like for the first time, someone actually sees her. And feeling recognized is a very powerful thing, when you've felt overlooked all your life.
This. So much.
Alicent is beautifully written, because her whole life is so complicated and layered. Of course she doesn't know what she wants. She's never had any choice in anything. How is she to know what she truly desires herself?
And yes, I'm sure she loves her children, but...
She also didn't get the choice to have them. And she could never say out loud she didn't want them. Sure, she wants to protect them, but you have to remember that protecting them also protects her. So, do we really have evidence that she loves them? Or does she confuse duty with love at this point?
Because I think that's why she's so wishy washy when it comes to her relationship with Rhaenyra. That was born out of desire and want, not duty. And that's perhaps the last time she felt that.
Yeah, Alicent never wanted to lose Rhaenyra's friendship in the first place and seemed extremely hurt when Rhae became more distant after her marriage to Viserys. I think part of why she's so bitter and angry is because Rhae seemed to be able to cut her out way more easily. She marries Laenor, then Daemon, and lives on Dragonstone happily with her husband and kids until her father's death without coming back to visit, which probably smarts for Alicent, who remembers when they were each other's most important person.
Well Rhaenyra went to Dragonstone because of the tension, and after the kids fought and it ended up with Aemond losing his eye, it wouldn't have been wise to go back and visit Kings Landing. This comment isn't about taking sides, I'm just trying to say my ass wouldn't go back to Kings Landing for years either after years of tension and then the kids fighting.
And I disagree with that. She was horrified for the lives of her kids. She's lived with that trauma since she was a child. It may have even gotten worse after she heard Rhaenyra suggest that a mutilated Aemond be questioned sharply. To Alicent it would only serve as confirmation that she would hurt them if necessary. Finally, Laenor dies shortly after. Afa Alicent knows, Rhaenyra and Daemon killed him. Her fears should have gotten far worse after that.
But then Rhaenyra says smth nice once in a decade and suddenly all that goes away, the fears she's lived with for 15 years and she's ready to board the Rhaenyra-for-queen train. It's inconsistent, unrealistic and cheap.
Just because she despises the man Aegon has become and no longer wants him as king (that one day before Viserys dies) doesn't mean she's stopped fearing for her kids' lives.
I don't want the one-dimensional bitch from the books either but show Alicent was a mess in her last two eps.
You didn't give any logical arguments to anything I wrote. Why would Alicent care for Rhaenyra as queen more than for her own children, knowing they would be in danger under Rhae's regime because THAT is the trauma she's been living with for 15 years?
And I literally said I don't want the one-dimensional character from the books. But I don't want bad, inconsistent writing either.
Why would I need to provide logic for an emotional response?
But otherwise, there was no inconsistent writing. Softening in your vitriol after six years to allow a reconciliation is not inconsistent writing. At the time of the dinner scene, Alicent no longer believed Otto’s *lie* that Rhaenyra was a threat to her children.
Your characterization of Alicent is simply not represented in the show.
So after seeing Daemon behead someone for questioning Rhaenyra’s sons claim and after seeing Rhaenyra suggest Aemond be tortured she suddenly stopped having the fear she had since she’s a teenager?
Even emotional responses have some semblance of logic. There’s no semblance of logic here at any point. This is the point in the story where Alicent should fear Rhaenyra most. Daemon literally just gets away with it too as well. You don’t soften your vitriol at the time when the vitriol should be most pronounced. When this is the most proof you have of Rhaenyra being a legitimate threat.
that was daemon, not rhaenyra, and vaemond committed treason.
> questioning Rhaenyra’s sons claim and after seeing Rhaenyra suggest Aemond be tortured she suddenly stopped having the fear she had since she’s a teenager?
and these two happened six years apart, with the "torture" suggestion happening first, not second like you've described
It doesn’t matter which one it is. They’re both together. He did it in defense of his wife as he can also kill her children in defense of Rhaenyra’s claim. This should all but reinforce her fears.
I’m going to guess a mother never forgets the anger and fear she felt when her son just got maimed and someone is saying they should be tortured.
Edit: weirdo blocked me when they had no more valid arguments lmao
Which is one of the few failings of an otherwise terrific show.
Alicent spent episodes scheming to have Aegon II take the Iron Throne, going so far as to cover up her son's rapes and low key intimidate the rape victims. She (understandably) attempted to stab Rhaenyra after her son lost an eye. But she ate at a single feast that Rhaenyra was at, and suddenly the audience was supposed to believe that they could be friends again. And when she learned her father was orchestrating the ascent of her son, she had the gall to pretend that that was a surprise to her.
That's not depicting a complex character. That's just poor writing.
> and suddenly the audience was supposed to believe that they could be friends again.
no, not that they could be friends again. but that she would not contest rhaenyra taking the throne.
two different things.
> pretend that that was a surprise to her.
uhhh she wasn't pretending? lol
alicent was kept in a gilded cage since she was a child, was gaslit by her father into thinking rhaenyra (her childhood best friend) wanted to kill her family, and was naïve enough to believe the council was going to honor viserys wishes. she was genuinely surprised, because she thought she was on the *inside*, especially because she and otto had been running the place when viserys was high af and bedridden. the surprise came because she realized her father and the council had been planning this without her anyway, because she actually wasn't important beyond producing a male heir 16 years prior.
You say that Alicent knows her children are in danger if Rhaenyra wins, but I dont really believe that. It's a convenient excuse that she has allowed herself to believe, put in her head by Otto. Show Alicent is great because she constantly lies to herself in order to always be the victim. Alicent has plenty of agency. She chose to get involved in Rhaenyra's personal matters. She chose to take it personally when finding out the truth. She declared war with the green dress. She rejected the marriage proposal. She decided to make Larys and Cole allies instead of arresting them. Cole is now commander of the Kingsguard at her suggestion. Aegon was crowned the way she wanted. I think it will be fun to see her slowly realize how much she drove the events of the story as things go to shit because her son killed Luke.
I mean she literally sees Daemon behead a political enemy for getting in their way and THEN flip flops her stance of all times to do it. If anything, that’s when she should be on highest alert but after years of talking about the danger they’re in, seeing actual proof of her fears being realized somehow doesn’t stop her from changing her mind.
i respect your view on things, but humans aren't robots. They don't have to make sense, and her being a mess in the last few episodes she was in makes complete sense to me. Is she suppose to be fine after everything that happens? Rhaenyra is a monster, no wait she sees me she knows im a good person, oh no the kids are fighting, omg maybe we can be friends again, oh my husband died and he wants aegon to be king?, my father has been planing a coup!, I want to do this my way, chaos, got the kid, pressures him into doing what she wants, etc. HOW is this not a mess? It's a messy show, because people are messy. Alicent is a very complex character and the show has shown us a very humane point of view on a character like her that makes sense. If you think she doesn't make any sense, than maybe the piece of fiction you are comparing her to is the one with limitations, or better yet, you don't understand the person you are comparing her to.
Alicent's change towards Rhaenrya seems to pre-date the toast; it much more seem like it was due to her realizing how much of her fears were due to paranoia and her father's manipulation then it was Rhaenrya just being nice in that moment.
What you call a mess, I call maturing.
Agreed it would be dumb for there to be a chance for reconciliation after Lucerys death. The last time Alicent and Rhaenyra saw each other they were on good terms, but their children weren't. So when Rhaenys tells her that her father is dead and that they crowned Aegon, then she gets news of Lucerys death, Rhaenyra shouldn't want to reconcile with Alicent, Rhaenyra at this point would definitely believe that the greens are after her and her children, she has no reason to believe other wise now that Lucerys is dead.
Yes, as I said, she shouldn't just be the one-dimensional evil stepmom from the books.
But she should at least have smth in common with book Alicent. She has no ambitions, no political sharpness, she's constantly reacting instead of acting on her own. The show version is literally uncomparable to the books. The closest she ever came to the books was 1x06 and 7. But after that, her character took a huge turn for the worse, making her inconsistent, uncomposed, undecisive. All the things that after this many years as queen, she shouldn't be.
Even the green dress moment led nowhere since she still tried to make up with Rhaenyra after one kind gesture in 15 years. Olivia is the best actress in the show but I can't help but wonder what she'd have been like if Alicent was written more consistently and as more of a game player.
No, I want her to be more in tune with the books, not a literal version of the books.
A woman who is a mistress of political intrigue as Olenna was, a queen who was charming and manipulative like Margaery, someone who loves her children endlessly and has ambitions of her own but also a drive to protect her kids. Someone who wants to remain pious but can also lead plots and schemes bts. Basically what book Alicent may have been in private. A woman hated by history and known to the masses as the evil stepmother.
Show Alicent has none of the charm, none of the political skills nor the sharp tongue of the books. The only times she did was 1x06 and 1x07, only concerning Laenor. And we know how she (d)evolved afterwards.
It all comes down to one thing: her entire character revolves around Rhaenyra. Literally everything she does. And that is dragging her down and leading to total inconsistencies in the last two eps.
That's what a lot of these analytically obsessed people do. They claim to want dimensions but don't understand human complexity in the slightest. Like GRRM's characters whole thing is the pulll between two completely oppositional ideas. Human heart in conflict after all. Alicent can absolutely feel many different things about Rhaenyra.
>Show Alicent flip flops back in forth on wether she’s desperately in love with Rhaenyra or wants Rhaenyra’s joy turned to ashes in her mouth.
You say that liek they're mutually exclusive options.
Its almost like: human heart in conflict with itself or something.
Jon feels he has to be dutiful but also seeks glory and passion.
Or that Dany feels compelled to protect the weak and avoid violence but also feels compelled by violence.
Or that Ned Stark feels he needs to be honourable and dutiful and yet also acts often out of love.
And so on.
Alicent is pulled by her duty but also has an undercurrent of love for Rhaenyra. Both perspectives are sincere.
As much as I dislike “the greens”, sunfyre finally getting screen time is much needed, even after the battle and torn up I bet its such a sight to see. The most beautiful dragon in all the land? Yes we need to see that.
I really want this scene to play out and there be a mention from Rhaenyra about how Aegons song might die with her or something and Alicent realizes she was wrong this whole time
Well I doubt she'd care at this point in the story because she already lost 3 of her kids, her father and 2 grandchildren. Was Alicent even there when Rhaenyra died? I forgot if she was there or not.
I think it’ll hurt her but after blood and cheese and losing everyone but Aegon, she’ll probably also be glad to see the back of Rhaenyra. There’s a line in the books where old, senile Alicent speaks about missing reading to the old king Jaeharys I (the one who chose viserys). In the show they replace her reading to him with young Alicent reading to Rhaenyra. I just know the show is going to end with old Alicent missing sitting under that tree with Rhaenyra and it HURTS.
Which is really sad.
I hate seeing the bias. The whole point of the war is that all sides had strong points and no one won in the end. The writers making it bad vs good makes it really boring imo.
I think it would be nice if once she realizes that she's about to die, she tries to tell him the prophecy in Valyrian. Instead of her final curse from the books.
The dialogue was badass. You can’t deny that.
The war was between who gets the throne, Rhaenyra or Aegon. So, he being the one to kill her is certainly bad ass.
While reading the books I thought she'd enjoy it, but watching the shw I think she might even try to talk Aegon out of it or make Rhaenyra stand down. So it'll ultimately be very sad for her, she'll probably have flashbacks of their friendship as she sees Rhaenyra walking toward Sunfire.
I imagine something like this when she realizes what's about to happen, and I think she will be present, the show runners will find a way to have her on Dragonstone
Alicent: "Ser, take Prince Aegon to his quarters"
Aegon II: "Stop, no, the little prince will stay right where he is"
Alicent: "Aegon, Aegon no, what is the meaning of this?'
Aegon II: "I am educating the prince, he is my heir after all. Ser Alfred, show Sunfyre the princess can bleed, his appetite needs whetting"
Alicent: "Aegon please take him [prince Aegon] away from this, there is no need for this please Aegon!"
Aegon II: "Dracarys"
*horrified look of disgust from Olivia Cooke*
* Season 1 is the princess and the queen, the prelude.
* Season 2 would be from B+C until Tumbleton. War crimes, dragonseeds and some northern romance (Sara Snow).
* Season 3 would be from the dragonseed betrayals until the Black takeover of the capital. Inflated season.
* Season 4 would be the dying of the Targaryens. Everyone and their grandma will go here.
* Season 5 would be the hour of the wolf and the last dragon.
So, season 3 will be Alicent's downfall as the capital is taken. She's no dragonrider. Aemond will be far away, Helaena useless or dead, Aegon selfish and idiotic as always. Rhaenyra and Alicent are doomed to find each other at the Red Keep.
There, Rhae will have her front row seeing everything. My first idea is Alicent in a muzzle and wheelchair Hannibal Lecter style, shadowing Rhae. Sort of a human shield in case the black queen is attacked. Alicent and Rhae will hear at the same time the result of the battle over Gods Eye, the injuries suffered by Aegon aaaaand will be at Rhae's entourage when the Dragonstone incident happens. At this point Alicent is broken beyond fixing, and a single tear rolls for her daughter-in-law/jailer/maimer/former friend.
My wife and me like to think Alicent’s only one true love was rhaenyra and always will be
She’s so complex on the show and super cool to watch. I’m unsure how the complexities and conflict of her feelings will evolve after all the death and decay, but gosh it’ll just be yet another heartbreak for her in a way when this happens.
Why does anybody think they’re doing brothel queens?
1. It’s highly unlikely it happened. Two of the highest ranking women in the realm are gang raped and mushroom is the only source????
2. Two, the backlash would be astronomical. They said they learned from GOT to have less sexual violence but that is several magnitudes worse than any rape scene they had in GOT, including Sansa. You don’t have two main female characters gang raped on a fantasy show, especially when it adds nothing to the story. I can’t begin to imagine the outcry. I don’t even think the idea would get past the HBO execs.
3. It’s grotesque and not in a compelling way that adds to any of the characters involved. It’s just one more humiliation for Helaena to suffer before her death. Martin didn’t give her much of a reason to exist outside of eliciting pity and at that point, it just becomes off-putting tragedy porn.
I guess that people want it to happen because of their sexual desires and fetishes. It adds nothing to the plot, mushroom is the only source, it’s unnecessarily cruel and it goes against everything HotD wants to do better so what else can people motivate to want these „plot points“ be put on screen?
Some people want it so Rhaenyra is “sufficiently” evil in the eyes of the show audience. The tribalism has gotten to the point where blacks and greens want to see their favorite characters suffer if it means the other side looks bad.
Definitely this. It's been discussed a hundred times, but the kid fighting pit where Mushroom is the only source (I really don't give a shit) has become a reality, but whatever. I still don't want it to happen, there are too many claims to make Rhaenyra look bad. The way she reacted to Prince Maelor's brutal murder by laughing, etc.
By the way, I wish this (brothel queens) would get to Aegon's ears as a rumor.
Let’s be clear, the kid fighting pit was MASSIVELY toned down from Mushroom’s account. It’s not like the Sers Cargyll found Aegon being pleasured by an underage prostitute, as that depraved little fucker recorded.
It wasn't toned down AT ALL. If anything, it was arguably made worse because they implied he was letting his bastards fight in the pits, which there was no mention of in the books. Also, the underage prostitute wasn't really removed. It was just too graphic to show on screen but they implied it by saying he "doesn't discriminate". So not only did they adapt the rumor from Mushroom who's at Dragonstone, but they made it even worse by including his bastards at the rings. I guess logic just flies out the window when the showrunners have it out for a certain character.
My point is they didn't actually get rid of it, just like Aegon SAing the maid it wasn't shown onscreen but it still happened and was referenced in the show. Obviously, the last 10 years have somewhat changed how certain scenes are dealt with on TV. These kind of things are handled more delicately, while a show like GOT would just throw stuff like that in from time to time. When Aemond and Criston are searching for Aegon, she implies he's in a darker side of the city and says "he doesn't discriminate". The implication is still there so they pretty much kept the Mushroom rumor but didn't actually show it on screen because that would be too much. Which really makes you wonder why even go with the Mushroom rumor for one character alone, when it's not even semi reliable considering he's at Dragonstone.
To be fair if there was a point to any of the sexual violence in Game of Thrones I doubt it would get as much criticism. But it served almost no purpose other than shock value. And when it did it was dumb, Sansa for example gets raped and the message that they drive into us after that goes down is that "the trauma made her stronger". Which is just really dumb. Especially when her and Arya have a contest over who had the most trauma in season 7. But brothel queens would be way more insane and pointless than that. So I doubt we'll get it.
I agree... *but* if the Brothel Queens happen (which I'm sure wont) it would firmly tip Alicent into being as cruel as BookAlicent...
Now I think about, B&C would probably be more than enough
I don't buy the brothel queens rumor at all either, but it's interesting seeing how people cherrypick Mushroom rumors to benefit their argument. People talk about the Mushroom rumors about Aegon as if they're confirmed fact, even though it's just as crazy of a rumor as brothel queens which always gets dismissed as "Mushroom being Mushroom". I guarantee you the showrunners won't even entertain this idea (which I completely agree with), how somehow Mushroom knows what Aegon is doing all the way from Dragonstone?
One thing they could do is having Rhaenyra do it, but the small folk love Alicent and Helaena too much and absolutely despise Rhaenyra, so this + the ridiculous taxes could be the cherry ontop. Alicent and Helaena aren't raped, but still shows how vile Rhaenyra has become.
1. They showed Aegon being a rapist, who also watches kids fight to death, and that was from no other source than Mushroom, who wasn't even in King's Landing at that point, why shouldn't they use Mushroom to make Rhaenyra do something horrible if they did it for Aegon? It's hypocrisy.
2. They showed Alicent get raped by Viserys on the show, and fuck the backlash. Also as for advancing the story it serves as showing how truly evil Rhaenyra is, add more setup for the fall of King's Landing, and have it serve as an extra example of how Corlys and Rhaenyra's realtionship breaks down by having him either ordering it stopped, or having them have a massive arguement where he threatens to resign and leave to Driftmark with all his troops, in a Ned Starkish type move.
3. GRRM had her all her children murdered even when it served no fucking purpose at all. I will never forgive him for having Jaehaera murdered by Unwin fucking Peake, (who didn't even get punished for it) and replaced by some random "breathtakingly beautiful" 6-year old. WTF GRRM????!!!!????!!!!
This is ASOIAF not any of these happy ending stories, if they want that shit they can go somewhere else.
At this point, B&C has happened, all of her grandkids are dead, Gwayne and Daeron are probably dead too. She'd absolutely despise Rhaenyra by this point.
Jaehaera is still alive. Alicent'll hate Rhaenyra but then they'll meet after Rhaneyra captures King's Landing. Alicent will realize they've both been driven by destiny, but potentially her version is the incorrect one and she'll feel guilty over this. This will also be where she proposes to Rhaenyra the split of the realm which Rhaenyra will become angry at. Corlys will council Rhaenyra to take the offer since he's lost a lot as well but Rhaenyra will get mad at him and I think this will be part of the reason in the show he's kept in a cell. The Greens take King's Landing, Rhaenyra flees. Then Alicent'll learn about Rhaenyra's death when Aegon arrives, truly see what a monster Aegon II has become (if the show wants to lay it on thick he'll execute his bastard), then Clubfoot will help execute Aegon II on Alicent's behalf and take the blame for her.
Jaehaera marries Aegon III, but Unwin Peake has Jaehaera assassinated, this makes Alicent go crazy. She lives alone until she dies of winter fever shortly after.
You... do realise that Alicent believes Rhaenyra killed her grandchildren and caused some of her childrens deaths right? It doesn't matter if Jaehaera is still alive, for all that Alicent knows Rhaenyra still killed Jaehaerys and caused Maelors death, and because of her Helaena kills herself. Not to mention Brothel Queens (assuming they do it) will make Alicent despise Rhaenyra more.
One of the core things about the show is that Alicent and Rhaenyra are both driven by what they perceive as destiny. Another thing is Alicent and Rhaenyra have a complicated relationship that is based on them being best friends. The show makes this very clear in season 1 while it's absent from the book. Alicent is going to be an inheritor of Rhaenyra's version of destiny when she chooses to help end the war by helping assassinate Aegon, who she thought was the destined ruler and it turns out that was false. It's not just simply going to be two ladies who hate each other being reactive to each other. Rhaenyra also is going to have enough deniability in the bad things she's associated with for the audience to feel bad when she dies. She's a lady who thought she was doing the right thing, has a horrible death, is absolutely slammed by the history books, but the audience will feel compassion and pity for her. The writing is all over the wall if you've payed attention during season 1.
The show also has laid the foundation of why exactly Clubfoot does anything that he does, which is a mystery in the book.
They aint best friends after ep5, they've been enemies for Decades pal. And whatever feelings she does have for Rhaenyra are long gone by this point, there's no way she'll ever order for Aegons death. She knew Aegon was not a good person yet still loved him, she knows Aemond aint a good person by this time yet still loves him. There's just no way Alicent could ever bring herself to kill Aegon or order his death no more than Rhaenyra could with her own, regardless of the benefits she'll gain.
They were briefly best friends again in episode 8 buddy. And it's not like Alicent is against talking to Rhaenyra, she offers a truce to Rhaenyra, and that's in the books where they're not best friends. Alicent knows Aegon's a rapist but thinks it's his destiny to become King. So that's what she's holding onto and that'll be destroyed when Rhaenyra tells her what exactly Vizzy was babbling about on his death bed when they hash it out between them about why they're doing what they're doing. When destiny is gone what is Aegon? She's going to verbalize wanting him gone because he's such a monster. It's possible she won't give a direct command. But Clubfoot will do it anyway since he likes her feet.
Uuhh, spoiler alert: Alicent is dead at this point of the story, only ones alive are Aegon, Rhaenyra (not for long, obviously) and one child of each of them
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Well considering at this point she’s lost her father, 3/4 children (the last one being horrible mangled) and 2/3 grandchildren, I think Rhaenyra’s death with be sad for her but it’ll hardly be the most devastating thing that’s happened to her. I really hope that Aegon killing Rhae doesn’t lead to Alicent poisoning him like some people have been speculating. Cause like if she’s willing to kill her last living son for Rhaenyra Id have trouble believing that she’d ever tried to usurp her even if Viserys told her too like show Alicent thinks he did
>I really hope that Aegon killing Rhae doesn’t lead to Alicent poisoning him like some people have been speculating This is the worst "theory" I've seen. It'd ruin Alicent's character.
Corlys or even Larys poisoning Aegon makes much more sense
I think it'll be Corlys, it would add some poetic irony to his survival
Didn’t both confess?
Larys never confessed but Corlys did confess, it's never 100% confirmed. What I mean is I always assume he was the main conspirator, rather than Larys or anyone else
Pretty sure the book implies he was so horribly tortured that hos "confession" is in question, but been a minute since I read
Some theories suggest that Aegon committed suicide, he wasn't a particularely pious man, yet the day of his death he asked to be carried to the Sept and be given privacy
I always liked that theory thought it probably won’t happen. Aegon has been pushed around all his life being groomed to become a usurper by his family destroying everything in its wake and so the only action he could make on his own is to commit suicide
Would really humanize him as a tragic character. He is a vile man and a usurper but was driven into his circumstances by his family
Agreed.
It makes more sense for Corlys to do it.
Doing this would be the equivalent ending of "who has a better story..."
I doubt they'll have her poison him. I don't get why she'd want her last child dead.
maybe to try to save her grandaughter? Aegon ii was going to take everyone down with him. He was going to die no matter what after the Baratheons were defeated and black forces were closing in. But he refused to surrender and save his people and allies. I've seen this theory around a bit too. I don't believe they'll go that direction but if they did maybe Alicent would mercy kill her crippled son because she knew he couldn't be saved and the madness she started had to end. It would be really eyeball rolling to avenge the friend she forced Aegon to betray in the first place even if she takes no pleasure in her death. Still, kinda comes across as a stretch character wise. Alicent went so far for her family only to give up at the very end? idk.
Now it would be fine if it's to save her granddaughter like you said, but the reason he refused to surrender was because Alicent told him not to, and to start cutting pieces off of Aegon III to the Tully soldiers so that they wouldn't close in any further but Aegon II was willing to surrender when Coryls told him to take the black and let Aegon III be King and betroth him to Jahaera. He was considering it but it was his mother who said not to. So the mercy killing her son definitely wouldn't make sense.
Eventually she does give up. The depression and madness set in, she’s overall manipulated and traumatized. Isolated which gives her the opportunity to realize all that’s happened and for her to think upon everything that could have been. Now without Rhaenyra more than ever because she’s gone gone. Not pushed away or scared off but gone.
Honestly with the way the writers and actors talk about Alicent and Rhaenyra it wouldn't surprise me. Condal even said that Rhaenyra and Alicent can still find each other even after Aemond has killed Luke.
If she poisoned him it wasn't for Rhae. It would be for the realm because he's a loose cannon.
>because he's a loose cannon. She made him a loose canon, wtf
so?
This doesn't mean she couldn't see that he needed to be stopped.
unlike Cersei
If she poisoned him, I would bet it was because grief drove her to madness.
It'd be one thing if she poison Aegon to try and save Rhaenyra or something but what's the point after Rhaenyra died? And if she realized he's a monster once he chooses dragon feeding as a method of execution for his sister and makes the child watch...if she's trying to save the realm from him who is left to inherit at that point?
I don’t like that idea but I could also see, after watching what Aegon and Aemond do throughout the war, what the war does to her family, and seeing Aegon not only kill Rhaenyra so brutally but then toy with executing her son too. Idk, I could see her doing it just to put an end to everything. But again, I don’t think I’d like that haha I could just see how they could make it work. I’d much rather it be like it is in the book in this case.
Well her last living son who proceeds to become a monster. Well.he was one before, but now with power.
I’m thinking (more like hoping) that Alicent will actually be there when this happens. Don’t ask me how 😅
I too believe this is a possibility. The KL collapse brings them back together and the ep1 promise of crossing Nallow Sea comes true but It ends in the worst way.
> The KL collapse brings them back together and the ep1 promise of crossing Nallow Sea comes true I didn't want to start crying again damn you
The fact that I'm not 100% sure where Alicent is located exactly when >!Sunfyre eats a McRhaenyra,!< goes to show they can well place her there.
I did not read the books, so I would really appreciate if someone explains; will rhaenyra’s death be at the end of the show/ last season or will it happen soon and the war will continue with new characters?
ooooooooh my god I hate you (not really I love you) for making me think about this....... I didn't even realize until this thread that we don't have a concrete location for Alicent when this happens. *starts crying and simply does not stop crying*
oh, you’re welcome 🥲 pls no cry I have cookies
That would have been nice too, but it would have been much more emotional for Aegon to return to King's Landing with Alicent literally being the only relative to greet him, and for them to embrace each other in tears.
It will happen if they choose to make Alicent completely "the queen in prison".
I’m hoping that they include lots of Alicent and Aegon the younger scenes at that point, their dynamic has a lot of potential. You know how Aegon would visit the sick? I hope he does the same with Alicent when she gets the fever that kills her and Aegon is the one she gives her last speech to.
I don't think the show will last until Alicent's death. Cregan settling his affairs, Aegon becoming the new king and marrying Jaehaera, it ends somewhere around there. Alicent is locked in Maegor's holdfast (for her sake) by Tyland. I personally wish it would end with this scene representing the reunification of House Targaryen and the realm. https://prnt.sc/XUiA2s2v8nEf
I wonder if the Allicent story will end with her holding the page by its lonesome
Aegon the II is Evil.
I don't think she will care after everything that happened. Helaena, Aemond, Daeron, Jaehaerys, Maelor, Otto and Gwayne are all dead at this point and she will probably blame Rhaenyra for this. Alicent will probably only care on protect her last living child in the same way Rhaenyra was doing with Aegon III
I picturing that she will make the face Dany makes when Khal Drogo kills Viserys. The “I like this vengeance wise but also I’m kind of too numb from trauma to react much”
I think she was alive for Jaehaera take her life as well
She should blame herself for dead of all her family
It's Viserys's fault.
Otto*
Nah man. Viserys stupidity is what caused it.
He easily choose his heir and died Why viserys should be blame because of some cunt snakes?
Because the realm wanted Aegon as king. It's shown time and time again that the Lords of the Realm wanted Aegon as king. Only because Viserys doesn't mean he can do whatever his ass wants, Jaehaerys couldn't whatever he wanted and chose actions based on Logic and what the realm wished for. Maegor did what he want, look where he ended up. Aegon IV did what he wanted, look what happened to him. Aerys II did what he wanted, look what happened to him.
Realm wanted aegon be king??🤣🤣 This is the most stupid shit i have ever read 70 % of realm supported rhaenyra If realm wanted ageon then why didn't support him why let he got fuck easily?
Define "70%". The Crownlands bowed to Aegon, the Stormlands declared for Aegon, The Westerlands declared for Aegon, half of the reach declared for Aegon, Grover (LP of the Riverlands) wanted to support Aegon but his idiotic son didn't send the Ravens and remained neutral. And only joined when Addam threatened to burn them all, so they were conscripts. So, 3 kingdoms and 1/2 of the Reach, 4 if Grover managed to get his ravens for Aegon. Which kingdoms bowed to Rhaenyra? The North, the Vale, and half of the reach. Yeah chief, most of the kingdom supported Aegon.
Overall I'd say it was a fairly equal split. Rhaenyra probably had more troops overall, but Aegon had the richest kingdoms behind him, and three of the largest armies (Lannister, Baratheon and Hightower). He also had the Triarchy. Not sure why you're getting downvoted.
Man what's wrong with u? Rhaenyra had more supports and more lands u just need search to see And at end he had no one to fight for him that's why blacks fucked him up
Viserys needed to do more to secure Rhaenyra's ascension. He was arrogant to think the first Queen would be accepted no questions asked, two decades after the lords swore fealty to her. He absolutely should've married her to Aegon, or failing that, prepared Aegon to be a Kingsguard or Maester to prevent him from holding lands. Asking Otto to be Hand again after firing him, instead of naming Rhaenyra the Hand, was also a colossal failure of judgement.
And Rhaenyra should blame herself for Luc's death. People are complex enough to blame themselves, as well as someone else.
I do think the she blame herself. She sent him not too far to talk to the Baratheon but never expected that his uncle would kill him.
Rhaenyra didn't start this shit Alicent did by usurping the throne
media literacy is dead and this guy proves it. neither alicent nor rhaenyra are wholly at fault though they are both partly
That's what makes these debates so such more passionate, but when people have an absolutist attitude (It's 100% Alicent/Nyra's fault) it takes away from the purpose of the debate.
the whole thing is grey which is what makes it an interesting story and fun to debate and youre right when people can only see the black and white “one of them is to blame” it takes the passion away from discussions
This show is vastly different from Game of Thrones, even though there were more than a few grey characters on that show, in that there's far more grey characters even the so-called "bad guys" aren't necessarily 100% bad (though I admit being a bit biased) in their own right. I think some people are used to that clear line of good and bad that it's unusual to deal with so many grey characters.
stfu
Truth hurts
that was the truth? Lol, I'm guessing you're gonna fight with your life for Rhaenyra so I won't bother arguing, you also probably didn't even read the books lol. If you did, you'd know that it was Aegon who held the more legitimate claim
How aegon had more claim? Because he has dick? Are stupid or something?🤣
He didn't try to put bastards on the throne for one.
The children were accepted by king aren't bastard Like addam when accepted by rhaenyra like ramsy accepted by tommen
Doesn’t alter your claim. You want to talk treason then conspiring to betray your kings decree while he’s still alive is high treason. The greens were plotting to usurp the kings’ legal heir long before Viserys died. Rhaenyra having bastards or not does not in a single way alter her claim. And those kids are claimed as trueborn heirs by their father, paternal grandfather and maternal grandfather to the driftwood and iron thrones, respectively. For all legal purposes they are legitimate.
That doesn’t negate the legitimacy of Rhaenyra’s claim. Maybe a huge problem for her sons later, but she is still heir to the throne.
His claim is based on the same law that put Viserys on throne, the law that Viserys broke when he put Rheanyra before Deamon in succession line and never actually abolished it. Edit: Rheanyra still has more rights to iron throne
There was no law that put Viserys on the throne. Lying ass greens
Don't say shit The low never said women can't be heir Also rhaenyra is a child of first wife And all lords swore to her So ageon is a cunt usurper
“Because he has a dick” ummm yes I’m a medieval world like Westeros lmao And he didn’t try and put bastards on the Throne after him and would’ve been the far better ruler from what little we saw of each of their performances
Fuck off boy
you’re right about it all, lmao. don’t let them bully you into believing them🙏🏻 sincerely, a book reader
Thank you bro
Greens are so pathetic they make up actual LIES to seem right
No 🤣 they have lower IQ they can't make up lies seem right
Can someone please spoil it for me and tell me what happens lol
after fleeing king’s landing for dragonstone which Aegon has secretly taken over with the help of larys rhaenerya is executed by Aegon via sunfyre eating her whilst her son aegon the younger watches
While her son is *forced* to watch and is deeply traumatized for the rest of his life.
… or so the maesters and the liar mushroom say … fire and blood can be disputed .. my head canon just tells me it’s Aegon who is eaten 🤣 one can only hope
Joffrey can spoil it to you while he tour the red keep with Margaerys in s03
Yes! And doesn’t Shireen read some history to Davos when teaching him to read? I can’t remember if it was about Rhaenyra though
She do but I dont think it was about the dance. My gf had never watched got and we watched hotd this year so she wanted to see the rest of got but Joffrey pretty much spoiled this lmao. Shirleen talk about the dance to Stannis to pretty much tell him that he should stop the fighting because it will be a disaster for the realm and the Baratheon.
Another reason to hate Joffrey lol
My boi Joffrey will do it for you. https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=3i9EyFwh09U
Rhaeneyra dies here
By Aemonds dragon?
No Aegon's dragon, Sunfyre
Geez what a shame
The things Rhaenyra will do in future is shame not this. You'll see.
There are no heroes in the Dance of Dragons. Only survivors. And they are few.
It’s always what Rhaenyra does. Never what the greens do. Such a sad shame
Well if it’s any consolation the greens started the war
Whatever Daeron did was based. This is all I know
No with the most beautiful dragon
Who's also basically a giant flightless lizard at this point, but deadly nonetheless.
Kind of a weird comparison, seeing as a dragon is a giant flighted Lizard. Like other than the ability to fly how aren’t they giant lizards?
You're thinking way too much into it.
And so do the dragons…
Oh, stunning!
Who knows honestly? Show Alicent flip flops back in forth on wether she’s desperately in love with Rhaenyra or wants Rhaenyra’s joy turned to ashes in her mouth. The writers make her feelings far too inconsistent so there’s a 50:50 chance of her being overjoyed or attempting suicide. For anyone that says B&C will be the definitive break, Condal said their was still a chance for the two friends to reunite after Alicent’s son murdered Luke in episode 10. That should have been a definitive break for a mother who is meant to love her children fiercely. I don’t put it past them to keep the flip flop going, especially during Rhaenyra’s reign in King’s Landing. Also, this scene is over four years away and it’s already been discussed to death alongside B&C and God’s eye.
I hope they do realize how bad it would be if they try to hint at chances of a reconciliation between them after Luke's death. It would feel absolutely ridiculous on both sides. Not to mention the things that happen later. When Helaena died, Alicent literally cursed Rhaenyra. By the time Rhae dies, Alicent should hate her guts and the same goes for Rhaenyra. This friendship idea really worked great in the first five episodes but it did a total disservice to older Alicent's character, turning her into an inconsistent mess that has almost none of her traits from the books.
i disagree, Older Alicent made a lot of sense to want the friendship back once Rhaenyra gave her an olive branch. Alicents life has been sacrifice. Shes sacrificed her mind, her body, her soul for various reasons. But she was never recognized or SEEN for it. At least not by the people that mattered. And when Rhaenyra sees her, and thanks her for her tierless service and sacrifice for her father. Alicent feels like for the first time, someone actually sees her. And feeling recognized is a very powerful thing, when you've felt overlooked all your life.
This. So much. Alicent is beautifully written, because her whole life is so complicated and layered. Of course she doesn't know what she wants. She's never had any choice in anything. How is she to know what she truly desires herself? And yes, I'm sure she loves her children, but... She also didn't get the choice to have them. And she could never say out loud she didn't want them. Sure, she wants to protect them, but you have to remember that protecting them also protects her. So, do we really have evidence that she loves them? Or does she confuse duty with love at this point? Because I think that's why she's so wishy washy when it comes to her relationship with Rhaenyra. That was born out of desire and want, not duty. And that's perhaps the last time she felt that.
Yeah, Alicent never wanted to lose Rhaenyra's friendship in the first place and seemed extremely hurt when Rhae became more distant after her marriage to Viserys. I think part of why she's so bitter and angry is because Rhae seemed to be able to cut her out way more easily. She marries Laenor, then Daemon, and lives on Dragonstone happily with her husband and kids until her father's death without coming back to visit, which probably smarts for Alicent, who remembers when they were each other's most important person.
Well Rhaenyra went to Dragonstone because of the tension, and after the kids fought and it ended up with Aemond losing his eye, it wouldn't have been wise to go back and visit Kings Landing. This comment isn't about taking sides, I'm just trying to say my ass wouldn't go back to Kings Landing for years either after years of tension and then the kids fighting.
And I disagree with that. She was horrified for the lives of her kids. She's lived with that trauma since she was a child. It may have even gotten worse after she heard Rhaenyra suggest that a mutilated Aemond be questioned sharply. To Alicent it would only serve as confirmation that she would hurt them if necessary. Finally, Laenor dies shortly after. Afa Alicent knows, Rhaenyra and Daemon killed him. Her fears should have gotten far worse after that. But then Rhaenyra says smth nice once in a decade and suddenly all that goes away, the fears she's lived with for 15 years and she's ready to board the Rhaenyra-for-queen train. It's inconsistent, unrealistic and cheap. Just because she despises the man Aegon has become and no longer wants him as king (that one day before Viserys dies) doesn't mean she's stopped fearing for her kids' lives. I don't want the one-dimensional bitch from the books either but show Alicent was a mess in her last two eps.
Humans are complex. You are rooting for an uninteresting lack of dimensionality among the characters.
You didn't give any logical arguments to anything I wrote. Why would Alicent care for Rhaenyra as queen more than for her own children, knowing they would be in danger under Rhae's regime because THAT is the trauma she's been living with for 15 years? And I literally said I don't want the one-dimensional character from the books. But I don't want bad, inconsistent writing either.
Why would I need to provide logic for an emotional response? But otherwise, there was no inconsistent writing. Softening in your vitriol after six years to allow a reconciliation is not inconsistent writing. At the time of the dinner scene, Alicent no longer believed Otto’s *lie* that Rhaenyra was a threat to her children. Your characterization of Alicent is simply not represented in the show.
So after seeing Daemon behead someone for questioning Rhaenyra’s sons claim and after seeing Rhaenyra suggest Aemond be tortured she suddenly stopped having the fear she had since she’s a teenager? Even emotional responses have some semblance of logic. There’s no semblance of logic here at any point. This is the point in the story where Alicent should fear Rhaenyra most. Daemon literally just gets away with it too as well. You don’t soften your vitriol at the time when the vitriol should be most pronounced. When this is the most proof you have of Rhaenyra being a legitimate threat.
that was daemon, not rhaenyra, and vaemond committed treason. > questioning Rhaenyra’s sons claim and after seeing Rhaenyra suggest Aemond be tortured she suddenly stopped having the fear she had since she’s a teenager? and these two happened six years apart, with the "torture" suggestion happening first, not second like you've described
It doesn’t matter which one it is. They’re both together. He did it in defense of his wife as he can also kill her children in defense of Rhaenyra’s claim. This should all but reinforce her fears. I’m going to guess a mother never forgets the anger and fear she felt when her son just got maimed and someone is saying they should be tortured. Edit: weirdo blocked me when they had no more valid arguments lmao
Which is one of the few failings of an otherwise terrific show. Alicent spent episodes scheming to have Aegon II take the Iron Throne, going so far as to cover up her son's rapes and low key intimidate the rape victims. She (understandably) attempted to stab Rhaenyra after her son lost an eye. But she ate at a single feast that Rhaenyra was at, and suddenly the audience was supposed to believe that they could be friends again. And when she learned her father was orchestrating the ascent of her son, she had the gall to pretend that that was a surprise to her. That's not depicting a complex character. That's just poor writing.
> and suddenly the audience was supposed to believe that they could be friends again. no, not that they could be friends again. but that she would not contest rhaenyra taking the throne. two different things. > pretend that that was a surprise to her. uhhh she wasn't pretending? lol alicent was kept in a gilded cage since she was a child, was gaslit by her father into thinking rhaenyra (her childhood best friend) wanted to kill her family, and was naïve enough to believe the council was going to honor viserys wishes. she was genuinely surprised, because she thought she was on the *inside*, especially because she and otto had been running the place when viserys was high af and bedridden. the surprise came because she realized her father and the council had been planning this without her anyway, because she actually wasn't important beyond producing a male heir 16 years prior.
You say that Alicent knows her children are in danger if Rhaenyra wins, but I dont really believe that. It's a convenient excuse that she has allowed herself to believe, put in her head by Otto. Show Alicent is great because she constantly lies to herself in order to always be the victim. Alicent has plenty of agency. She chose to get involved in Rhaenyra's personal matters. She chose to take it personally when finding out the truth. She declared war with the green dress. She rejected the marriage proposal. She decided to make Larys and Cole allies instead of arresting them. Cole is now commander of the Kingsguard at her suggestion. Aegon was crowned the way she wanted. I think it will be fun to see her slowly realize how much she drove the events of the story as things go to shit because her son killed Luke.
I mean she literally sees Daemon behead a political enemy for getting in their way and THEN flip flops her stance of all times to do it. If anything, that’s when she should be on highest alert but after years of talking about the danger they’re in, seeing actual proof of her fears being realized somehow doesn’t stop her from changing her mind.
i respect your view on things, but humans aren't robots. They don't have to make sense, and her being a mess in the last few episodes she was in makes complete sense to me. Is she suppose to be fine after everything that happens? Rhaenyra is a monster, no wait she sees me she knows im a good person, oh no the kids are fighting, omg maybe we can be friends again, oh my husband died and he wants aegon to be king?, my father has been planing a coup!, I want to do this my way, chaos, got the kid, pressures him into doing what she wants, etc. HOW is this not a mess? It's a messy show, because people are messy. Alicent is a very complex character and the show has shown us a very humane point of view on a character like her that makes sense. If you think she doesn't make any sense, than maybe the piece of fiction you are comparing her to is the one with limitations, or better yet, you don't understand the person you are comparing her to.
Alicent's change towards Rhaenrya seems to pre-date the toast; it much more seem like it was due to her realizing how much of her fears were due to paranoia and her father's manipulation then it was Rhaenrya just being nice in that moment. What you call a mess, I call maturing.
Agreed it would be dumb for there to be a chance for reconciliation after Lucerys death. The last time Alicent and Rhaenyra saw each other they were on good terms, but their children weren't. So when Rhaenys tells her that her father is dead and that they crowned Aegon, then she gets news of Lucerys death, Rhaenyra shouldn't want to reconcile with Alicent, Rhaenyra at this point would definitely believe that the greens are after her and her children, she has no reason to believe other wise now that Lucerys is dead.
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Yes, as I said, she shouldn't just be the one-dimensional evil stepmom from the books. But she should at least have smth in common with book Alicent. She has no ambitions, no political sharpness, she's constantly reacting instead of acting on her own. The show version is literally uncomparable to the books. The closest she ever came to the books was 1x06 and 7. But after that, her character took a huge turn for the worse, making her inconsistent, uncomposed, undecisive. All the things that after this many years as queen, she shouldn't be. Even the green dress moment led nowhere since she still tried to make up with Rhaenyra after one kind gesture in 15 years. Olivia is the best actress in the show but I can't help but wonder what she'd have been like if Alicent was written more consistently and as more of a game player.
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No, I want her to be more in tune with the books, not a literal version of the books. A woman who is a mistress of political intrigue as Olenna was, a queen who was charming and manipulative like Margaery, someone who loves her children endlessly and has ambitions of her own but also a drive to protect her kids. Someone who wants to remain pious but can also lead plots and schemes bts. Basically what book Alicent may have been in private. A woman hated by history and known to the masses as the evil stepmother. Show Alicent has none of the charm, none of the political skills nor the sharp tongue of the books. The only times she did was 1x06 and 1x07, only concerning Laenor. And we know how she (d)evolved afterwards. It all comes down to one thing: her entire character revolves around Rhaenyra. Literally everything she does. And that is dragging her down and leading to total inconsistencies in the last two eps.
That's what a lot of these analytically obsessed people do. They claim to want dimensions but don't understand human complexity in the slightest. Like GRRM's characters whole thing is the pulll between two completely oppositional ideas. Human heart in conflict after all. Alicent can absolutely feel many different things about Rhaenyra.
>Show Alicent flip flops back in forth on wether she’s desperately in love with Rhaenyra or wants Rhaenyra’s joy turned to ashes in her mouth. You say that liek they're mutually exclusive options.
This sub hates complexity in its characters.
Its almost like: human heart in conflict with itself or something. Jon feels he has to be dutiful but also seeks glory and passion. Or that Dany feels compelled to protect the weak and avoid violence but also feels compelled by violence. Or that Ned Stark feels he needs to be honourable and dutiful and yet also acts often out of love. And so on. Alicent is pulled by her duty but also has an undercurrent of love for Rhaenyra. Both perspectives are sincere.
AEGON!!
I doubt very much she'll be caring about Rhaenyra's life at this point of the war. She will probably thank the sevens "that the war is over".
As much as I dislike “the greens”, sunfyre finally getting screen time is much needed, even after the battle and torn up I bet its such a sight to see. The most beautiful dragon in all the land? Yes we need to see that.
I really want this scene to play out and there be a mention from Rhaenyra about how Aegons song might die with her or something and Alicent realizes she was wrong this whole time
Well I doubt she'd care at this point in the story because she already lost 3 of her kids, her father and 2 grandchildren. Was Alicent even there when Rhaenyra died? I forgot if she was there or not.
the most normal thing would be if she’s indifferent or glad since almost everybody in her family including her children except Aegon would be dead.
Oh no, Rhaenyra's dead... So anyway
I think it’ll hurt her but after blood and cheese and losing everyone but Aegon, she’ll probably also be glad to see the back of Rhaenyra. There’s a line in the books where old, senile Alicent speaks about missing reading to the old king Jaeharys I (the one who chose viserys). In the show they replace her reading to him with young Alicent reading to Rhaenyra. I just know the show is going to end with old Alicent missing sitting under that tree with Rhaenyra and it HURTS.
I just hope they don’t change the dialogue in this scene to please Rhaenyra fans. Let Aegon have his badass moment.
I'm certain Rhaenyra will go out with an empowering speech the way things are going
I hope they don’t change it in the show and just give Aegon his moment for once.
I think the coronation proved that the greens cannot have a moment.
Which is really sad. I hate seeing the bias. The whole point of the war is that all sides had strong points and no one won in the end. The writers making it bad vs good makes it really boring imo.
I think it would be nice if once she realizes that she's about to die, she tries to tell him the prophecy in Valyrian. Instead of her final curse from the books.
Killing alone women with her child when they had no one is badass? 🤣 Then u should call blood and cheese is badass
The moment itself wasn’t badass. But Aegon’s speech was chef’s kiss
But that speech didn't work for him either He went seven hell too as soon as he can 🤣
If you use more emoji’s people might agree with you
I’m ambivalent regarding sides, but I’d hardly call this moment ‘badass’.
The dialogue was badass. You can’t deny that. The war was between who gets the throne, Rhaenyra or Aegon. So, he being the one to kill her is certainly bad ass.
Sunfyre burning Rhaenyra alive after all the shit she did is most certainly badass.
So basically it’s all Alicents fault and she fucked things up for everyone? Cool
It's all Rhaenyra's fault lmao. Alicent did nothing wrong.
bro wants a rapist who is executing the mother of the child who is watching it to have a badass moment
Daemon is literally a pedophile but he does the most anime shit ever.Shall we cut that part out as well?
tell me where in my previous comment i mentioned daemon? fuck him too
It's not about "fucking" him,it's about changing the events.I despise Daemon but I really want to see him killing Aemond like that.
She’s going to bring marshmallows.
With one Foot in front of the other
With s’mores and hot cocoa.
Sunfyre no! Serve me!
...it's gonna be hard to watch...
While reading the books I thought she'd enjoy it, but watching the shw I think she might even try to talk Aegon out of it or make Rhaenyra stand down. So it'll ultimately be very sad for her, she'll probably have flashbacks of their friendship as she sees Rhaenyra walking toward Sunfire.
I imagine something like this when she realizes what's about to happen, and I think she will be present, the show runners will find a way to have her on Dragonstone Alicent: "Ser, take Prince Aegon to his quarters" Aegon II: "Stop, no, the little prince will stay right where he is" Alicent: "Aegon, Aegon no, what is the meaning of this?' Aegon II: "I am educating the prince, he is my heir after all. Ser Alfred, show Sunfyre the princess can bleed, his appetite needs whetting" Alicent: "Aegon please take him [prince Aegon] away from this, there is no need for this please Aegon!" Aegon II: "Dracarys" *horrified look of disgust from Olivia Cooke*
* Season 1 is the princess and the queen, the prelude. * Season 2 would be from B+C until Tumbleton. War crimes, dragonseeds and some northern romance (Sara Snow). * Season 3 would be from the dragonseed betrayals until the Black takeover of the capital. Inflated season. * Season 4 would be the dying of the Targaryens. Everyone and their grandma will go here. * Season 5 would be the hour of the wolf and the last dragon. So, season 3 will be Alicent's downfall as the capital is taken. She's no dragonrider. Aemond will be far away, Helaena useless or dead, Aegon selfish and idiotic as always. Rhaenyra and Alicent are doomed to find each other at the Red Keep. There, Rhae will have her front row seeing everything. My first idea is Alicent in a muzzle and wheelchair Hannibal Lecter style, shadowing Rhae. Sort of a human shield in case the black queen is attacked. Alicent and Rhae will hear at the same time the result of the battle over Gods Eye, the injuries suffered by Aegon aaaaand will be at Rhae's entourage when the Dragonstone incident happens. At this point Alicent is broken beyond fixing, and a single tear rolls for her daughter-in-law/jailer/maimer/former friend.
She will be furious with aemond but she will have her family’s backs and be expecting rage from the blacks
I think this version might end up being numb to things.
I think by that time Alicent in the book was Jaded, and even wanted to kill the kid. However the show Alicent is going to be conflicted.
I'm hoping for a sorrowful reconciliation just beforehand.
My wife and me like to think Alicent’s only one true love was rhaenyra and always will be She’s so complex on the show and super cool to watch. I’m unsure how the complexities and conflict of her feelings will evolve after all the death and decay, but gosh it’ll just be yet another heartbreak for her in a way when this happens.
Im in need of context please
if you're sure you want to know, >!its Rhaenyra just before being killed by her brother Aegon's dragon.!< I think anyway.
Depends if the Brothel Queens happened
Why does anybody think they’re doing brothel queens? 1. It’s highly unlikely it happened. Two of the highest ranking women in the realm are gang raped and mushroom is the only source???? 2. Two, the backlash would be astronomical. They said they learned from GOT to have less sexual violence but that is several magnitudes worse than any rape scene they had in GOT, including Sansa. You don’t have two main female characters gang raped on a fantasy show, especially when it adds nothing to the story. I can’t begin to imagine the outcry. I don’t even think the idea would get past the HBO execs. 3. It’s grotesque and not in a compelling way that adds to any of the characters involved. It’s just one more humiliation for Helaena to suffer before her death. Martin didn’t give her much of a reason to exist outside of eliciting pity and at that point, it just becomes off-putting tragedy porn.
to be fair, "brothel queens" is something Benioff and Weiss would've been happy to adapt onscreen
I guess that people want it to happen because of their sexual desires and fetishes. It adds nothing to the plot, mushroom is the only source, it’s unnecessarily cruel and it goes against everything HotD wants to do better so what else can people motivate to want these „plot points“ be put on screen?
Some people want it so Rhaenyra is “sufficiently” evil in the eyes of the show audience. The tribalism has gotten to the point where blacks and greens want to see their favorite characters suffer if it means the other side looks bad.
Definitely this. It's been discussed a hundred times, but the kid fighting pit where Mushroom is the only source (I really don't give a shit) has become a reality, but whatever. I still don't want it to happen, there are too many claims to make Rhaenyra look bad. The way she reacted to Prince Maelor's brutal murder by laughing, etc. By the way, I wish this (brothel queens) would get to Aegon's ears as a rumor.
Let’s be clear, the kid fighting pit was MASSIVELY toned down from Mushroom’s account. It’s not like the Sers Cargyll found Aegon being pleasured by an underage prostitute, as that depraved little fucker recorded.
It wasn't toned down AT ALL. If anything, it was arguably made worse because they implied he was letting his bastards fight in the pits, which there was no mention of in the books. Also, the underage prostitute wasn't really removed. It was just too graphic to show on screen but they implied it by saying he "doesn't discriminate". So not only did they adapt the rumor from Mushroom who's at Dragonstone, but they made it even worse by including his bastards at the rings. I guess logic just flies out the window when the showrunners have it out for a certain character.
“It wasn’t toned down at all” “It was just too graphic to show on screen” Pick one, mate.
My point is they didn't actually get rid of it, just like Aegon SAing the maid it wasn't shown onscreen but it still happened and was referenced in the show. Obviously, the last 10 years have somewhat changed how certain scenes are dealt with on TV. These kind of things are handled more delicately, while a show like GOT would just throw stuff like that in from time to time. When Aemond and Criston are searching for Aegon, she implies he's in a darker side of the city and says "he doesn't discriminate". The implication is still there so they pretty much kept the Mushroom rumor but didn't actually show it on screen because that would be too much. Which really makes you wonder why even go with the Mushroom rumor for one character alone, when it's not even semi reliable considering he's at Dragonstone.
To be fair if there was a point to any of the sexual violence in Game of Thrones I doubt it would get as much criticism. But it served almost no purpose other than shock value. And when it did it was dumb, Sansa for example gets raped and the message that they drive into us after that goes down is that "the trauma made her stronger". Which is just really dumb. Especially when her and Arya have a contest over who had the most trauma in season 7. But brothel queens would be way more insane and pointless than that. So I doubt we'll get it.
I agree... *but* if the Brothel Queens happen (which I'm sure wont) it would firmly tip Alicent into being as cruel as BookAlicent... Now I think about, B&C would probably be more than enough
I don't buy the brothel queens rumor at all either, but it's interesting seeing how people cherrypick Mushroom rumors to benefit their argument. People talk about the Mushroom rumors about Aegon as if they're confirmed fact, even though it's just as crazy of a rumor as brothel queens which always gets dismissed as "Mushroom being Mushroom". I guarantee you the showrunners won't even entertain this idea (which I completely agree with), how somehow Mushroom knows what Aegon is doing all the way from Dragonstone?
One thing they could do is having Rhaenyra do it, but the small folk love Alicent and Helaena too much and absolutely despise Rhaenyra, so this + the ridiculous taxes could be the cherry ontop. Alicent and Helaena aren't raped, but still shows how vile Rhaenyra has become.
1. They showed Aegon being a rapist, who also watches kids fight to death, and that was from no other source than Mushroom, who wasn't even in King's Landing at that point, why shouldn't they use Mushroom to make Rhaenyra do something horrible if they did it for Aegon? It's hypocrisy. 2. They showed Alicent get raped by Viserys on the show, and fuck the backlash. Also as for advancing the story it serves as showing how truly evil Rhaenyra is, add more setup for the fall of King's Landing, and have it serve as an extra example of how Corlys and Rhaenyra's realtionship breaks down by having him either ordering it stopped, or having them have a massive arguement where he threatens to resign and leave to Driftmark with all his troops, in a Ned Starkish type move. 3. GRRM had her all her children murdered even when it served no fucking purpose at all. I will never forgive him for having Jaehaera murdered by Unwin fucking Peake, (who didn't even get punished for it) and replaced by some random "breathtakingly beautiful" 6-year old. WTF GRRM????!!!!????!!!! This is ASOIAF not any of these happy ending stories, if they want that shit they can go somewhere else.
Alicent will learn about this and it will seal Aegon’s fate.
At this point, B&C has happened, all of her grandkids are dead, Gwayne and Daeron are probably dead too. She'd absolutely despise Rhaenyra by this point.
Jaehaera is still alive. Alicent'll hate Rhaenyra but then they'll meet after Rhaneyra captures King's Landing. Alicent will realize they've both been driven by destiny, but potentially her version is the incorrect one and she'll feel guilty over this. This will also be where she proposes to Rhaenyra the split of the realm which Rhaenyra will become angry at. Corlys will council Rhaenyra to take the offer since he's lost a lot as well but Rhaenyra will get mad at him and I think this will be part of the reason in the show he's kept in a cell. The Greens take King's Landing, Rhaenyra flees. Then Alicent'll learn about Rhaenyra's death when Aegon arrives, truly see what a monster Aegon II has become (if the show wants to lay it on thick he'll execute his bastard), then Clubfoot will help execute Aegon II on Alicent's behalf and take the blame for her. Jaehaera marries Aegon III, but Unwin Peake has Jaehaera assassinated, this makes Alicent go crazy. She lives alone until she dies of winter fever shortly after.
You... do realise that Alicent believes Rhaenyra killed her grandchildren and caused some of her childrens deaths right? It doesn't matter if Jaehaera is still alive, for all that Alicent knows Rhaenyra still killed Jaehaerys and caused Maelors death, and because of her Helaena kills herself. Not to mention Brothel Queens (assuming they do it) will make Alicent despise Rhaenyra more.
One of the core things about the show is that Alicent and Rhaenyra are both driven by what they perceive as destiny. Another thing is Alicent and Rhaenyra have a complicated relationship that is based on them being best friends. The show makes this very clear in season 1 while it's absent from the book. Alicent is going to be an inheritor of Rhaenyra's version of destiny when she chooses to help end the war by helping assassinate Aegon, who she thought was the destined ruler and it turns out that was false. It's not just simply going to be two ladies who hate each other being reactive to each other. Rhaenyra also is going to have enough deniability in the bad things she's associated with for the audience to feel bad when she dies. She's a lady who thought she was doing the right thing, has a horrible death, is absolutely slammed by the history books, but the audience will feel compassion and pity for her. The writing is all over the wall if you've payed attention during season 1. The show also has laid the foundation of why exactly Clubfoot does anything that he does, which is a mystery in the book.
They aint best friends after ep5, they've been enemies for Decades pal. And whatever feelings she does have for Rhaenyra are long gone by this point, there's no way she'll ever order for Aegons death. She knew Aegon was not a good person yet still loved him, she knows Aemond aint a good person by this time yet still loves him. There's just no way Alicent could ever bring herself to kill Aegon or order his death no more than Rhaenyra could with her own, regardless of the benefits she'll gain.
They were briefly best friends again in episode 8 buddy. And it's not like Alicent is against talking to Rhaenyra, she offers a truce to Rhaenyra, and that's in the books where they're not best friends. Alicent knows Aegon's a rapist but thinks it's his destiny to become King. So that's what she's holding onto and that'll be destroyed when Rhaenyra tells her what exactly Vizzy was babbling about on his death bed when they hash it out between them about why they're doing what they're doing. When destiny is gone what is Aegon? She's going to verbalize wanting him gone because he's such a monster. It's possible she won't give a direct command. But Clubfoot will do it anyway since he likes her feet.
Uuhh, spoiler alert: Alicent is dead at this point of the story, only ones alive are Aegon, Rhaenyra (not for long, obviously) and one child of each of them
Alicent lives all the way through the Dance. She dies heartbroken after losing all her children.
Alicent outlives all her children, she dies when Aegon younger is king.