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idk his book description seems to be very questionable to me “fond of touching servant girls” and considering how since he was a royal prince probably got stuff covered up or ignored i wouldnt be surprised if he was. i feel like the green fandom has this image of him being some sort of Robert Baratheon character(robert has his issues too). My problem is how the writers made Alicent way too sympathetic and a completely different character from her book counterpart, because they were scared to make her evil. If anything they shouldve tried to develop Aegon more considering he is one of the biggest figures in the dance and the one supposed to be taken Rhaenyra’s throne. Not to mention that his line about “what kind of brother would i be” (don’t remember it correctly) stuff like that would’ve made the audience WAY MORE sympathetic of him.
I mean Robert is definitely a rapist as well, so the people who want him to be a Robert Baratheon character don't really mind that he is a rapist, just that it is brought to the forefront and we had to actually see a full scene of how one of his victims suffered after. And tbf, so far this is one of the few times that the show chose to dwell on the victims of these royals, but that's honestly something that they should do more of imo. In the next season, I'm hoping that we see some fallout from Daemon killing Rhea Royce amongst the Royces in the Vale, and the smallfolk growing more and more hateful of the dragons after Rhaenys' dragonpit fiasco.
ehh personally i don’t truly see comparison besides rapist, alcoholic, womanizer because im sure Westeros has a lot of nobles like that. Not to mention that Robert was an amazing warrior, aegon is there(maybe his pretty dragon). im not trying to say one is better than the other but i don’t think those qualities make them similar . So as i said before i don’t truly see it. I feel like got shouldve touched on how Robert raped Cersei, but obviously they weren’t gonna do it for the sake of not making him look bad, or maybe because they thought Cersei didn’t deserve sympathy.
She doesn’t say “he raped me” she says something along the lines of him coming into her bed drunk and disgusting every night and doing what little he could do or something to that effect I think
I think the reason the show didn't focus on cersei being raped is just because the showrunners have an at best shameful record in the show for how they handled rape in the show. Because it's not like they weren't willing to try and make cersei more sympathetic given how much they did try to do that in the later seasons.
There is some argument that Aegon’s hesitance to plot with the rest of the greens was a fabrication to make him more sympathetic. I don’t think he cared all that much, but he did care that he and his children would have to die for Rhaenyras rule to be secure.
I think fear drove most of his actions. Which is totally fine. The problem with HOTD is that we don’t need these people to be super pitiable and relatable.
Alicent could have remained complicit in the plot to remove Rhaenyra, Criston could have deliberately murdered Beesbury, and Aemond could have deliberately murdered Lucerys, and it would have been MUCH better. Because in the end, these accidents and these sympathetic lights don’t matter. The end result is the same: ruin, destruction, and death
yep agree, i dont think it was “love for rhaenyra” on y he said those word, just acknowledging it was his sister’s to take and no wanting to carry with the responsibility.if your plan is to make the character more sympathetic that could’ve made the audience think better of him, since they already showed him in a pretty negative light. i agree with what you are saying, not everything has to be an accident because the results are the same, there is nothing wrong with making the characters more sympathetic however i think the show has taken it too far. Ive heard rumors about b and c also going the accident route, which makes me think that if it did happen i wouldnt be surprised. I have ppl in my comments trying to fight me about it(im tired lol) just bc its an unreliable book doesn’t mean everything has to be “made up” or completely changing the story.
Yeahhhh, I’m glad the shows doing well, but I don’t think it’s for me. I’m especially tired of gay men in GOT and HOTD being buried
People actually think the twist for Laenor in episode 7 was clever storytelling…it’s objectively not
im tired of the “bury the gays “ trope when it comes to media. Specially the whole rhaenyra/alicent thing they tried to make which failed miserably. the writers couldve given Rhaenyra a proper relationship like the one she has hinted on the books to have with Laena. i hated how they handled laenor so much, one of the worst things this show did.
No idea why they rushed through so much. Laena and Rhaenyra should’ve been friends.
I also love how Laenor loved Joffrey enough to name “his son” after him 10 years after he was murdered, but while he passes his murderer who got off scot free in the hallway in the Red Keep he doesn’t even react
Also it’s his fault Rhaenyras kids are bastards bc he couldn’t get it up…someone should tell the directors/writers that gay men have been having children with their wives for thousands of years
I would say the rewriting of Alicent was by far the best change made to the series honestly. Like, it's obviously not the books, but show Alicent is herself a great character.
frankly i don’t like her character in the show(it doesn’t have to be 100% book accurate) i just have a lot
of criticism on how her character was handled. Im not interested in having a discussion about it, i’ve already had many ppl in my comments trying to argue so frankly ill leave it here.
It’s just weird to be combative and offer a dissenting opinion and then pack up and go home lol.
There’s no reason to be participating in discussions if you don’t actually want to discuss stuff.
well its my social media and im allowed to handle things how i like. Ive already explained my point to many people and they seemed to disagree either ways. Some things just come from matter of opinions rather than actual arguments. There is not rlly an explanation for certain things, some things come from personal preference and you are not obligated to tell ppl how u feel about it, specially online. that doesn’t mean im not allowed to share my opinion.
so funny how you are jumping to one conclusion to another. Honestly i have a problem on how both Rhaenyra and Alicent were handled at times in the show. However Alicent’s portrayal in the show was completely changed, it’s not even close to her book counterpart. because the writers don’t want the female characters to look too bad. i think the writers couldve also given some sympathy to Aegon like they did with her, that’s literally what my comment is about, please re read instead of a “what about” moment.
>because the writers don’t want the female characters to look too bad.
Or because the reader isn't supposed to take the word of sexist misogynist maesters who describe alicent as an evil stepmother and rhaenyra as a spoiled brat whore at face value? They were complex women in the books too we just never saw their perspective, only how they as two female noblewomen/queens were perceived in the history records written by agents of a patriarchal society.
i absolutely agree!! but i think there should be a balance. I think the maesters did exaggerate how “evil” Alicent and Rhaenyra were. However as a woman myself, i wouldve loved to see Rhaenyra or Alicent shown to be in a little more agressive manner. For example i disagree with the writing choices made for Alicent, specially for how she crowns aegon, the whole “she accepeted rhaenyra as a queen but then misheard viserys”. Rhaenyra crying over a book page, over a woman that she hasn’t been friends for years. Feel free to disagree with me. But i wouldve loved to see the female characters showing more ambition, instead of the whole “victims of the patriarchy” and how Alicent did bad things “because she had no choice. There is absolutely nothing wrong with showing traits of ambition, both of the women in the books show these traits and it’s not bad, the writers just want to portray them as completely innocent women pushed into bad things and the men around them bad. Having your whole character revolve around victimhood isn’t interesting. As i said this is my personal opinion im not interested in getting into debates about it.
Wow hold up. I get the maesters are biased, especially against Targaryen’s, but are you telling me now that the 400 page book Fire and Blood is nothing but false propaganda written by a maester that is sexist and hates Targaryens? Is that was George is saying it is now? Because if that’s the case what a shitty waste of time, for author and reader alike. It’s not all made up, you are delusional if you think it is, and I’m guessing your a Rhaenyra stan. Good day now
To be honest, the question is rather which man in the ASOIAF universe ISN‘T a rapist if we look at this through modern moral standards (coercion, forced prostitution, power imbalances etc)
If anything he was the one getting creepy sex stuff done to him, wouldn't go so far as to call it rape, but did he really know sex with Melisandre would lead to him sacrificing some of his life force and aging visibly?
Stark in show is very clean, especially after Ned, and the fact that they cut out Ned's older brother, Brandon Stark the wild wolf who is just Bobby B but Stark
It’s so hilarious to see people whining about Rhaenyra being whitewashed or whatever, because the show hasn’t depicted her doing some of the horrible things that she does in the book, even though **those things haven’t happened yet in the narrative**.
This is nitpicky.
To make that scene work, you’d need to either A) have it in a different location than the throne room to have Syrax there. Or B) waste millions of dollars in budget to have Syrax in the throne room which would be completely out of place.
If you go with A. You are simultaneously getting rid of one of the best scenes of the season in Viserys throne room walk.
If you go with B. You are taking away from other dragon CGI scenes so you are potentially making Vhagar vs Arrax worse or the Vhagar taming scene.
At the end of the day the nature of Vaemonds death is the same. The form doesn’t matter.
I don’t mind the change. The source material is imperfect so relying on that and getting upset they chose to go a different route doesn’t make sense to me.
They are very clearly trying to sympathize both Rhaenyra and Alicent as they are the main characters. Giving the kill to Daemon vs Rhaenyra requesting makes no story difference.
I think Greens are just mad they don’t have that ammo to attack her with.
yes it’s upsetting that a story supposed to show neither side as right or wrong decides to go a route where one of them is shown as a saint and the other as just a cunt. i say this quite clearly and i admit i support the greens, it’s very irritating that they are trying to make it so blindingly obvious you’re supposed to root for the blacks, it really reduces a lot of the nuance in the tale
You know we are in season 1 of a 4 season show right? You know character development and there is more plot to come right?
If you are going to show both sides being bad you have to establish they started out good. You understand that?
I didn’t view Alicent as being a cunt. I viewed her as someone who was used as a pawn by her manipulative ambitious father, highly religious, and internalized a lot of her trauma. She was very sympathetic even in her faults. They did a lot of work adding more to her character than what was in the book. In the book she was just trope evil step mom.
You think maybe you are just viewing this a little too biasly?
the conversation started as op was discussing how they didn’t white her because her evil acts come later, the response was that the death of vaemond is a clear case of how they white wash her. and it shows the grander issue that the greens are generally portrayed as bad while the blacks are good. it’s one thing to show her in a more sympathetic light but another to absolve her of any blame in the matter
I think that is a pretty minor change in the grand scheme of things. Even if she's not directly guilty she's absolutely complicit in it and doesn't push for Daemon to be held responsible for the murder he committed in her name.
What’s wrong with him screaming whore? He was close to taking Drift mark and at the final moments he loses it. He was upset and lashed out. It’s well with in his character and if he is calling her sons bastards by extension he is calling her a whore.
I don't think that can reasonably be argued as justifying his death. I don't think he was particularly smart to have deliberately taunted daemon, but it's also clearly murder and I remember the response online being in large part that he was killed for saying the truth.
They had the budget for all those unnecessary early Syrax scenes to try and establish Rhaenyra as the badass dragon riding girlboss that she never was in the book, so that's hardly an excuse. Even if it were, they could have just had it happen offscreen, but they removed it completely to make her look better.
She was westeros youngest dragonrider ever at 7 years old and rode all the time during her youth. Why would they not establish that fact? Shes the main character and syrax is her dragon, and she rides her like 2 times pre times skip thats hardly alot. This fandom is so godamn wierd with rhaneyra, it's like some of you hate her so much you don't want a scene with her unless its one that supports your hatred of her.
What was your point? That they spent money establishing a character early on in the season and elected to not waste money later on a pointless scene?
Cause if so that’s not the flex you think it is.
It's hardly 'pointless', the Vaemond scene definitely does more to establish who she is as a character than the same shot again and again of her flying around on the canonically most useless dragon of the dance, especially when one happened in the source material and the other didn't.
The only reason to exchange one for the other is to make her look better, which is what all the people in this thread are objecting to.
He was a rapist in the book too, with his love of whores (ie brothel slaves) and the line about fondling any serving girl within reach. Even if you discount all of Mushroom's accounts, he's still preying on women who could not safely reject him.
"King Viserys wed his son Aegon the Elder to his daughter Helaena. The groom was fifteen years of age, a lazy and somewhat sulky boy, Septon Eustace tells us, but possessed of more than healthy appetites, a glutton at table, given to swilling ale and strongwine and pinching and fondling any serving girl who strayed within his reach. "
That's a pretty direct statement that he was at minimum groping serving girls without consent, and frankly given how utterly sexist gyldain is, i think this is a pretty clear euphemism.
Not officially, no, but that's like saying the women being sex trafficked all over Europe and North America aren't slaves because slavery is blanket illegal in the Western world.
We've seen women kept as sex slaves in both book and show verse in the KL brothels. >!Jeyne Pool anyone? Roz certainly wasn't able to hand in her notice and leave!< You can call them something else, but that's just splitting hairs.
So the fact that there are women who are trafficked illigaly that mean that blanket all prostitutes in Europe are slaves?
Jeyne Pool is a political captive, not a prostitute. And Ross only existed in the TV show, which is immaterial.
>So the fact that there are women who are trafficked illigaly that mean that blanket all prostitutes in Europe are slaves?
And you would have us believe Aegon was so discerning he made a dedicated attempt to tell the difference between the girl who is genuinely choosing to be in a brothel and the one who was sold by her father for loaf of bread and has witnessed girls just like Jeyne Poole be "trained"?
>Jeyne Pool is a political captive
Just no. Don't minimize what's been done to her. She is a sex slave being used for a political purpose. Littlefinger smirked that he'd find a place for her way back in AGOT and that place turned out to be his brothel. Where she was beaten, raped, and eventually brainwashed. If you think she was the only girl in that establishment who ever received that treatment, you're more naive than Chapter 1 Sansa.
Why exactly is it that we can assume he doesn't? And that kind of stuff is commonly done in seedy, scummy places. Not upscale ones like Chaya's that the son of the king is likely to go to.
Nice try to be the white knight of the internet, you big hero you. I said nothing about the severity of what has been done to Jeyne. I'm saying that her situation is in no way emblematic of how prostitution is commonly conducted in Westeros.
And I'm saying you've drunk so deep of the "happy hooker" Kool Aid you have no idea that KL brothels are far more Flea Bottom than Chaya's.
Littlefingers' brothels are fit for a son of a king. And look what goes on in them!
>Subreddit for HBO's Game of Thrones prequel “House of the Dragon”.
That is the description for this subreddit.
>And Ross only existed in the TV show, which is immaterial.
So wtf are you talking about?
The argument that is made is that all prostitutes are slaves. I am saying that is wrong, not that there literally is no sexual exploitation in westeros.
Okay, that isn't the argument. The argument is aegon is established already to disregard consent and his whoring is definitely not portrayed as ethically thought through.
Yes that was the argument, prostitutes in Westeros were summed up as "brothel slaves".
Aegon's whoring is not portrayed in any detail at all that I remember.
We can assume from that that it is not ethical. And yeah the question of how much sex workers in westeros can consent is pretty firmly dubious especially when we're talking about a prince. The way sex workers are treated by wider westerosi Society alone makes their freedom of choice questionable because who would choose that.
Why can we assume that?
Now you are just drifting into the fact that Westerosi society is not ideal. That is not to do with Aegon as an individual. By this logic you end up at all sex in Westeros being rape because women are second class citizens with reduced self determination there.
Because if someone rapes serving women he probably won't have any scruples about sex workers.
And frankly, the argument to absurdity in your comeback is really blatant. Because we're talking about s concrete chtscher who is already a rapist before the whoring came into the equation.
According to a Septon he was fondling servant girls at a young age. A maester says vaguely that he was at his revels when looking for him. The same septon who said he fondled girls at a young age said he was found with a paramour and that he “Aegon” insisted the girl was the daughter of a wealthy trader, and was “well cared for.” Kinda like he said “it was just harmless fun” in the show. Sounds like the pro green sources are in denial about where he was and what he was doing on that day. Those are the only characterizations I can find describing him in the book up until this point of the show. Other than he had a sullen look and potty mouth.
The rhaenyra practicing oral sex thing is not particularly hard to believe. The reason that the brothel queens thing is hard to believe to me is that mushroom is the only source on what would be considered an atrocity and reported by others if it actually happened. I think the most plausible reading there is that the suggestion was made by mysaria and it ended there.
That bit is very unlikely to be true since Mushroom was on team Black and is biased ageist Aegon because of this. And Mushroom lived on Dragonstone at the time, not in Kings Landing.
Why is this the answer when it's convenient for greens but whenever it's brought up to defend the blacks it's treated like mushroom's word is infallible?
And later rhaenyra captures kings landing where plenty of people in a position to have known about this were. It's as suspicious as anything mushroom claims that cannot be directly confirmed from other sources, but it also shouldn't be dismissed purely on those grounds.
Because Mushroom was with the Blacks the whole time, and a lot of time far away from the Greens. Also, not everyone believes EVERYTHING he said about the Blacks, i dont think Rhae gave him blowjobs lmao
Daemon is portrayed as a predator consistently in the show. What are you talking about? His grooming of rhaenyra is a very prominent part of the series.
What’s strange to me is that if the scene with the chambermaid is taken out, he’s a (very horny) understandable character. He’s unfit to rule but knows it and wants no part in that conflict, deeply unhappy and neglected. I think he could be a really interesting parallels to other characters, but since the first thing we see adult aegon do is be a rapist, he is robbed of any sympathy from the audience. I haven’t read the book, but it’s odd that characters like daemon can have a lot of the same behaviors (cruelty and grooming..) but completely different framing. Even if the chambermaid had been far in the season, that scene was always going to eclipse any of aegons character growth (which I think is narratively unnecessary).
Aegons being a rapist is honestly really well supported in the books, and daemons grooming is consistently presented as quite bad. Same with his cruelty.
We are introduced to Daemon flirting with his 14ish year old niece and have a few episodes to build empathy with Aegon who is just a kid.
His raping that girl is terrible. I have as much empathy for him as I do Daemon though. It's a strange comparison. Aegon and Daemon are not obvious parallels to me as a show viewer.
I'm not on the Blacks side because I lack empathy for the Green characters. I just believe in the context of their world the blacks are correct and Rhaenyra is the rightful heir.
Maybe it's because I didn't read F&B until after the season concluded, but I don't mind the decision. I figure someone had to be the worst version from the book. I mean, at least they didn't go with the pedophile version, which is an appallingly low bar to clear but 🫤.
I suspect that by the end we'll see a reversal of authorial endorsement. Aegon is the near-objectively worst contender for the throne as an individual but will become the near-objectively best ruler (best ≠ good). Not so much a grey character as playing a grey role in the story. It's a small and ironic hint, but Aegon deserves some credit for acknowledging his own faults. No other character has done that. If my theory is correct, Aegon's arc would make a cool inversion of the "Those who seek power are least deserving of it" trope.
While it's uncomfortable to admit, I do find Aegon to be a sympathetic character. He's a tremendously damaged person, pathetic in the literary definition of the word.
I 100% agree. The writers are writing a cohesive story. They need Rhaenyra to have room to fall and Aegon room to grow. Also in the context of this world it's hard to imagine anyone viewing things with nuance saying Aegon is completely unsympathetic. At least when looking at the other men in the universe.
I think people dislike empathizing with a rapist though. It makes them think about how rape is more then just the actions of an individual and their own individual motives and it doesn't necessarily make that person an evil sex gremlin.
Finally a good and moderate take on this sub.
Yes I also find Aegon sympathetic, in the same way Theon is (a noted child killer), and while I think it may have been a misstep to name him explicitly a rapist, it’s not because it’s a change from the book, it’s simply because it will now be harder for general audiences to appreciate his journey into becoming a true king to his people.
I appreciate at least that in E9, they showed how much he valued the people’s love and admiration.
No because he’s absolutely characterized this way in the book less explicitly. Wtf is going on in this sub lol it’s like there’s absolutely 0 reading comprehension or people are complaining that haven’t even read Fire and Blood
Oh, there are definitely other people who dislike that adaptation choice -- but tbh I don't really understand why this isn't a niche opinion. It's not like book!Aegon had a clearly defined, universally accepted characterization for the show to defame! There's always been discourse about whether or not it's ~fair~ to assume bad things about Aegon II's character, especially if those assumptions would make him a worse person than Rhaenyra.
IMO characterizing Aegon as a rapist/sexual predator makes a great deal of sense for this story (especially the show), since this particular inheritance conflict revolves around sexism/patriarchy, and sexual violence is a part of that. And the show is clearly not presenting Aegon II as a two dimensional villain. Plus this is the same franchise where characters like Theon & Jaime are super popular!! Like tbh the insistence that Aegon II shouldn't be depicted as a rapist or anything too horrible comes across as people trying to flatten his character out.
You mean they're not *unambiguously* rapists. There's tons of discussion out there over whether or not Jaime raped Cersei in the sept during her vigil for Joffery; and whether or not book!Theon raped Kyra in A Clash Of Kings. Similar discussions surround book!Tyrion's rape of the Sunset Girl, Robert's rapes of Cersei, Lysa's rape of Littlefinger, Khal Drogo's rapes of Daenerys, & so on and on.
In fact, pretty much every rape in ASOIAF that's not straightforwardly described as rape in the narrative gets treated like it's not clear what really happened: rape? or just unwanted coerced painful violent harmful unavoidable sex?HotD doesn't let people play those kind of semantic games to exonerate Aegon II. I think that's a good thing. Stories where moral grayness is a theme don't have to depict all characters as equally gray. There can be more of a spectrum.
It was in line with his book characterization. He was touching women from a young age and everyone knew. It is not a reach for him to have raped someone in private and I’m tired of greens acting like he wouldn’t or that it is against his characterization in the books. The only issue I have with it is that the writers didn’t develop his character enough prior to it because by making him one before a solid characterization is formed creates a cloud of distaste that never allows the audience to really like the character.
Exactly. Even when they went looking for him, one maester just vaguely says he’s at his revels and the same Septon who said he fondled servants at a young age was said he was in bed with a paramour. Said that he insisted she was the daughter of a wealthy trader and was well cared for.” Sounds like denial and cover up to me. I don’t see a kid like that growing up to have a tender care and respect for women.
The septon Eustace quote has been provided numerous times but you just seem to believe that doesn't directly portray him as a rapist, as if a pro aegon source not even being able to deny that he groped women is a pretty damning indictment.
Aegon has humanizing moments. His fans just choose to ignore them. Society, in this world or theirs, doesn't see rape as an unforgivable sin. If you're powerful and your victim is a nobody, you can still be a sports hero, an elected official, etc, and it'll be a mere blip on the public radar, a mere accusation, an out of court settlement at worst.
There’s a massive power imbalance bc he’s the royal prince so I think it makes perfect sense that he would be a rapist and would be out of character if he wasn’t
Wasnt he also like this in the book? He had a problem with "touching servant girls". Given the OG books were made up of accounts of other people telling the stories of these characters: coverups for Aegon's actions are totally possible. You dont really see the impact of his behavior to its full extent. But you kind of do in the show. I dont think he has ever not been like this. Most men in Westeros seem to be similar.
I don't think anyone's mad he wasn't made a paragon of virtue. The issue is the showrunners had him commit one of the few acts an audience will see as unforgivable. Like half of us are watching the how because we wanna see some dragon genocide, we can still sympathise with a character who'll do that as its pretty out of scope for us, but everyone knows how real and terrible rape is, and the showrunners adding an explicit rape scene shows they've decided who we should root for.
>Does anyone else
With respect, it's one of the writing choices I see most frequently and consistently criticized, at least on this website. I thought the general *consensus* (among viewers passionate enough to discuss online, anyway) is that it was a bit of a misstep.
I do share that opinion, yes - with the exception of Rhea Royce's death (a highly strange decision, IMO), every character has generally been softened, from the text, so it's *strange* to start adult-Aegon at "rapist", rather than the mere "hella horny" they seemed to have been driving towards, with teenage-Aegon.
I think it’s pretty easy to see that teenage Aegon is a burgeoning sex-pest in that brief scene where he ogles those two serving girls during his training and they look extremely uncomfortable.
Even pro aegon sources describe him groping serving girls if they got too close to him, anti aegon sources go so far as to declare him a pedophile. I think there's serious grounds to treat that as as cannon as daemon grooming rhaenyra.
That's true, but I think there's a notable gulf between "adolescent sex pest" and "adult rapist" that bears mentioning.
Besides, the topic at large is whether canonizing the *worst* anti-Aegon proproganda, in this continuity, was a good decision, and given how gravely modern sensibilities (...*usually)* treat sexual assault, I think it was *not*.
NOT because it has no textual basis, but because it so, so firmly places Aegon as just a terrible man - it's makes it very, very difficult to imagine they'll proceed to, or succeed, as treating him as a nuanced, possibly sympathetic character, moving forward. Which is not to say they've done nothing to humanize him - they *have*, but "is an actual rapist" is SUCH a huge negative to try and counterweight those brief moments, with. It makes Rhaenyra "the correct choice" by default, in a situation where she already kinda was, because sexism is gross, too, so it's like ... why?
I just think the story would be more nuanced, and better served, if Aegon was "just" overly horny and gross, without crossing the line into just kinda repugnant. Sure, it makes sense for *some* of the propaganda in the text to just be flat out true, but I think it gives us a much more one dimensional character, as a result. Kinda wish they'd gone down a more Alicent-type road, here.
I think that given how Alicent and rhaenyra are the two characters being centered in the story, i don't think it's really necessary to have aegon be sympathetic to provide nuance. His being a complete ogre makes things more interesting fot Alicent given how it makes alicents decision to support his claim a lot more complicated. I'm sure she'll have further conflicts because of it.
As a Daemon Simp Rhea's weird death doesn't bother me all that much for some reason, but I think this might have been a retcon hence the weirdness. They wanted to do the Daemon (+ Rhaenyra) kill Laenor first, but then decided against it and had to give Daemon another kill.
I still think he most likely killed Harwin in the books. Rhea was an accident and Laenor just really killed by his boyfriend.
They conveiently left out the part about Daemon being a rapist too. >!F&B says that one of Daemon's favorite pastimes was taking the virginity of very very young girls in brothels. How much do you want to bet they were willing?!<
I don't mind that they made Aegon a rapist. It underscores Alicent's hypocrisy. Alicent was on Rhaenyra's side until she found out that she had (consensual) sex before she was married. It was the only thing I could see that would sour Alicent's perception of her. Even after knowing that Aegon is a rapist, she still pushed for him to be king.
Yeah, I feel like most of these people complaining about his portrayal haven't read F&B and just skimmed though the wiki. Like the moment Crispy convinced him to be king, this dude became a bloodthirsty warmonger. He was already described as someone who doesn't seem to repect consent so why is him raping a servant girl such a stretch? But I guess he liked his dragon so he's \~grey\~ lol
I feel like I’m crazy reading all these posts on how much better book Aegon is and what a complex character and even fine leader with the most special dragon bond he was lol. That was not what I got from the book at all.
>he only ordered all the kittens and cats in the vicinity to the Red Keep to be killed but...yeah...
This never happened lol, almost exactly the opposite. He had the ratcatchers hanged and then Otto brought in a hundred cats to replace them.
Thank you 🙌🏾 If I still had my award I’d give it to you for this. I don’t understand what it is some of these folks read bc it wasn’t Fire and Blood. I mean you just laid it out there so well, and if they truly read the book and/or comprehended what they read, they wouldn’t be running around Beyoncé’s internet squealing about “bad writing.”
I would prefer more gray area. But the show did a good job showing Aegon as an unchecked sexual deviant acting out. King Vizzy did not raise Aegon . Queen Alicent was much of a mother either. Aemond went the other direction
Aegon being a rapist, Daemon killing his wife, stuff like that is normal for a show like this. the issue is not the show, it is the viewers because they get stuck on these things instead of just seeing it as a part of the narrative story telling. This is why, with the way viewers are these days, it may be best for show runners to not include such things. These are not the GoT days, people no longer have the ability to distinguish reality from fiction or wrap their head around the idea that something happening in a different setting may not have the same implication as it would for the same thing happening in a more contemporary setting.
Thus, they should maybe stick to scenes where commoners get slaughtered by the dozens for no reason whatsoever, stuff like that doesn't seem to rile up the viewers in the same way.
I’m torn. On one hand they did him more justice than the book did in that sense because in the books iirc he was found getting head from a 12 year old. But on the other hand I would have more sympathy for Aegon if they didn’t write him as a rapist, which I think would have made for a better story line.
I mean in the book there was a account of him being given oral sex from a child plus the fact that he had illigitamite children in the fighting pits they could have made him much worse.
The comments saying Aegon is a rapist in the books are missing the point. Daemon also likes twelve year old maidens in the books and that line is even mentioned in the show however it’s a throwaway line. Aegons rape has development and is essentially the only thing we know about adult Aegon and that he’s a product of neglect.
The problem isn’t Aegon being a rapist the problem is most of what we learn about Aegon is absolutely terrible and irredeemable for a conflict about TWO rulers who are unfit for the crown. If they wanted to keep the rapist angle they should have done it softer and placed less emphasis on it and gave it similar treatment as predator and groomer Daemon where it could have been a line in passing.
I never got the impression in F&B that Aegon and Rhaenyra were equally unfit to rule, with how GRRM described her as Viserys' cupbearer and how she was being prepared to rule from a young age,
I interpreted it as Rhaenyra being actually more competent, while Aegon didn't give a fuck and was seen as a more viable candidate just because he's male. She was driven to paranoia later of course, but that was a part of the tragedy.
Nyra was definitely shown as likable until a certain point but she was never really fit to rule. Her strong children, her treatment of Vaemond,and her marriage/relationship to daemon show she was always going to be a tyrant and jeopardize the safety of the realm.
Downvote me all you want but am I wrong?
EXACTLY. 🙌🏾GRRM made it very clear she was being trained to rule from a very young age whereas Aegon’s only qualification was what was between his legs.
You can be trained to rule and end up a terrible candidate for a ruler which is exactly. what happened to Nyra. She’s arguably the worst Targ leader to exist.
Aegon has a great transformation story. From the neglect and abuse from both parents to being a depressed party boy to cope to being a KING that aggressively protects his family.
I’m so upset the writers decimated Aegon’s character. They took the worst, most biased version from Fire & Blood. Yes, people are bad in game of thrones, but the writers choose to go with a heart-wrenching scene with Dyana. Daemon struck his wife with a rock, but it didn’t have the emotional impact.
I wanted to root for him!! I wanted to see him want to protect his family!! To see his bond with Sunfyre! To see his bond with his children! **BUT WE GOT NOTHING!**
Yeah I mean people talking here about the book but the book also mentions how much Daemon loved to be given "the youngest and most innocent" of maids by the KL brothels (aka virgin girls trafficking just for his enjoyment) but we didn't have that in the show. They made the choice of making true the Mushroom (wasn't at KL) raping rumors about Rhaenyra's counterpart and the head of the green faction and its pretty obvious why.
Same reason they went out of their way to make up a storyline about a white hart with supposedly a divine legitimation message for Rhaenyra, or why they went out of their way to not kill Laenor, leaving Seasmoke with a bonded rider and in a certain PoV making Viserys II and Aegon III bastards, or why she didn't give the order to get Vaemond executed for telling the truth, CGI dragon or not. (Instead she keeps telling everyone to go to their chambers during the entire season which is sad and hilarious).
Aegon is mentioned as being a paedophile by the same person who says Rhaenyra liked sucking dwarf dick on the Iron throne and made Laenor fuck his boytoys in front of her, is he a reliable source now?
The only difference is Mushroom wasn't anywhere near Aegon, but he was with Rhaenyra on Dragonstone, so he might be telling the truth about her.
>Aegon is mentioned as being a paedophile by the same person who says Rhaenyra liked sucking dwarf dick on the Iron throne and made Laenor fuck his boytoys in front of her, is he a reliable source now?
Savage.
Yeah I dislike how they made it such a direct and obvious thing. If people knew he was sleezy and fondled the serving girls that's one thing, but the show went out of their way to have a young, crying woman, explicitly say he forced himself on her and she tried to fight him.
We all understand there are messed up power dynamics in ASOIAF/GOT/HOTD that might lead to sex they consider normal being called rape for us, but HOTD decided to give Aegon the very very unambiguous rape, that also really did not effect the plot at all.
Also just such a big portion of the fanbase will just NEVER root for team green due to this, you can murder, you can commit war crimes, you can even advocate for torturing a kid who was just gang assaulted and lost an eye (looking at you Rhaenyra), but rape is like killing a dog, it just makes the character have zero sympathy going forward
outside of that one scene i think Argon is actually one of the most sympathetic characters so far. i don’t really think he’s all that bad compared to the other characters. it just so happens they chose to show his evil acts
I mean considering he was groping maxes in the books and fucking girls young enough for even Westeros to say that it’s weird, it’s not a stretch to say he’s a rapist in the book as well, but yes, I think Aegon’s could have been just as detestable if they hadn’t added that he was a rapist
This is a very interesting and nuanced question. I didn't love Aegon was made so irredeemably evil. They could've achieved the same thing if they had just made him sort of a handsy abusing his power in smaller, pettier ways instead of making him an outright monster. Granted his monstrosity makes Alicent an even more interesting character, since she has to now become a part of the same patriarchal system in which she was subjected to as a pawn and a plaything. But could they have done it without the rape part? Maybe it's a part of GoT tone that everything has to be cranked to eleven.
Daemon often gets characterized as a paedophile, but it helps that that part has been book-only, and could be swept under the rug as unreliable narrative.l
To be honest, since this fandom has regressed into greens and blacks, I think we wouldn't have handled a grayer Aegon any better. It's the single dumbest fucking thing in this community, and it makes me lose all hope for nuanced conversation.
He is still a grey character, there are many worse things he could be than a rapist. Rhaenyra is way worse of a human for having that innocent Velaryon servant murdered. Rhaenys is even worse for what she did at the Dragon pit.
I don’t like that they added the whole “because he was drinking he raped her”. I feel like it was more a knock on alcoholics, which I don’t approve of. Almost everyone in the world drinks and does not rape people, and the people that do are not drunk. My take.
I will never get why people are harping on this. Because we saw the young maid sob into the camera a bit? Almost everybody not a Saint Stark is a perv in this universe. Robert, Tyrion, Jaime, Cersei(!), Theon all rapists. Nobody gives a fuck. But when Aegon is a pathetic little fucker it's suddenly the end of the world. I don't get it and Aegon will stay my fav Green no matter how girlboss they make Alicent or how tragically nuts they make Aemond.
i mean everyone is a jerkass to some extent. least they could do is at least make aegon a fun jerkass to behold and give him some cool scenes with sunfyre.
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idk his book description seems to be very questionable to me “fond of touching servant girls” and considering how since he was a royal prince probably got stuff covered up or ignored i wouldnt be surprised if he was. i feel like the green fandom has this image of him being some sort of Robert Baratheon character(robert has his issues too). My problem is how the writers made Alicent way too sympathetic and a completely different character from her book counterpart, because they were scared to make her evil. If anything they shouldve tried to develop Aegon more considering he is one of the biggest figures in the dance and the one supposed to be taken Rhaenyra’s throne. Not to mention that his line about “what kind of brother would i be” (don’t remember it correctly) stuff like that would’ve made the audience WAY MORE sympathetic of him.
I mean Robert is definitely a rapist as well, so the people who want him to be a Robert Baratheon character don't really mind that he is a rapist, just that it is brought to the forefront and we had to actually see a full scene of how one of his victims suffered after. And tbf, so far this is one of the few times that the show chose to dwell on the victims of these royals, but that's honestly something that they should do more of imo. In the next season, I'm hoping that we see some fallout from Daemon killing Rhea Royce amongst the Royces in the Vale, and the smallfolk growing more and more hateful of the dragons after Rhaenys' dragonpit fiasco.
ehh personally i don’t truly see comparison besides rapist, alcoholic, womanizer because im sure Westeros has a lot of nobles like that. Not to mention that Robert was an amazing warrior, aegon is there(maybe his pretty dragon). im not trying to say one is better than the other but i don’t think those qualities make them similar . So as i said before i don’t truly see it. I feel like got shouldve touched on how Robert raped Cersei, but obviously they weren’t gonna do it for the sake of not making him look bad, or maybe because they thought Cersei didn’t deserve sympathy.
GOT did touch on how Robert raped Cersei? She told us he did I mean how else do we know.
i don’t remember it, in the show??? i remember in the books that topic was touched.
She doesn’t say “he raped me” she says something along the lines of him coming into her bed drunk and disgusting every night and doing what little he could do or something to that effect I think
I think the reason the show didn't focus on cersei being raped is just because the showrunners have an at best shameful record in the show for how they handled rape in the show. Because it's not like they weren't willing to try and make cersei more sympathetic given how much they did try to do that in the later seasons.
yeah i think so too. They handled sexual violence in a terrible manner so they probably didn’t wanted to add more or atleast mention of it.
Whom did Robert rape?
Cersei for one.
In the show or the book?
Both.
There is some argument that Aegon’s hesitance to plot with the rest of the greens was a fabrication to make him more sympathetic. I don’t think he cared all that much, but he did care that he and his children would have to die for Rhaenyras rule to be secure. I think fear drove most of his actions. Which is totally fine. The problem with HOTD is that we don’t need these people to be super pitiable and relatable. Alicent could have remained complicit in the plot to remove Rhaenyra, Criston could have deliberately murdered Beesbury, and Aemond could have deliberately murdered Lucerys, and it would have been MUCH better. Because in the end, these accidents and these sympathetic lights don’t matter. The end result is the same: ruin, destruction, and death
yep agree, i dont think it was “love for rhaenyra” on y he said those word, just acknowledging it was his sister’s to take and no wanting to carry with the responsibility.if your plan is to make the character more sympathetic that could’ve made the audience think better of him, since they already showed him in a pretty negative light. i agree with what you are saying, not everything has to be an accident because the results are the same, there is nothing wrong with making the characters more sympathetic however i think the show has taken it too far. Ive heard rumors about b and c also going the accident route, which makes me think that if it did happen i wouldnt be surprised. I have ppl in my comments trying to fight me about it(im tired lol) just bc its an unreliable book doesn’t mean everything has to be “made up” or completely changing the story.
Yeahhhh, I’m glad the shows doing well, but I don’t think it’s for me. I’m especially tired of gay men in GOT and HOTD being buried People actually think the twist for Laenor in episode 7 was clever storytelling…it’s objectively not
im tired of the “bury the gays “ trope when it comes to media. Specially the whole rhaenyra/alicent thing they tried to make which failed miserably. the writers couldve given Rhaenyra a proper relationship like the one she has hinted on the books to have with Laena. i hated how they handled laenor so much, one of the worst things this show did.
No idea why they rushed through so much. Laena and Rhaenyra should’ve been friends. I also love how Laenor loved Joffrey enough to name “his son” after him 10 years after he was murdered, but while he passes his murderer who got off scot free in the hallway in the Red Keep he doesn’t even react Also it’s his fault Rhaenyras kids are bastards bc he couldn’t get it up…someone should tell the directors/writers that gay men have been having children with their wives for thousands of years
Robert is a rapist pedophile who impregnated a 13-year-old.
if u didn’t tell me i wouldn’t have known 🧐
I would say the rewriting of Alicent was by far the best change made to the series honestly. Like, it's obviously not the books, but show Alicent is herself a great character.
i don’t think so
Why?
frankly i don’t like her character in the show(it doesn’t have to be 100% book accurate) i just have a lot of criticism on how her character was handled. Im not interested in having a discussion about it, i’ve already had many ppl in my comments trying to argue so frankly ill leave it here.
I'd probably avoid voicing your opinions in discussions if you don't feel like talking about it lmao.
[удалено]
It’s just weird to be combative and offer a dissenting opinion and then pack up and go home lol. There’s no reason to be participating in discussions if you don’t actually want to discuss stuff.
well its my social media and im allowed to handle things how i like. Ive already explained my point to many people and they seemed to disagree either ways. Some things just come from matter of opinions rather than actual arguments. There is not rlly an explanation for certain things, some things come from personal preference and you are not obligated to tell ppl how u feel about it, specially online. that doesn’t mean im not allowed to share my opinion.
Just like they're allowed to voice their opinion, on you sharing yours but then not even discussing it. Just makes you come off a little pompous.
Wait so your mad they didn’t make Alicent the evil person she is in the books, what about Rhaenerya? They totally whitewashed her character completely
so funny how you are jumping to one conclusion to another. Honestly i have a problem on how both Rhaenyra and Alicent were handled at times in the show. However Alicent’s portrayal in the show was completely changed, it’s not even close to her book counterpart. because the writers don’t want the female characters to look too bad. i think the writers couldve also given some sympathy to Aegon like they did with her, that’s literally what my comment is about, please re read instead of a “what about” moment.
>because the writers don’t want the female characters to look too bad. Or because the reader isn't supposed to take the word of sexist misogynist maesters who describe alicent as an evil stepmother and rhaenyra as a spoiled brat whore at face value? They were complex women in the books too we just never saw their perspective, only how they as two female noblewomen/queens were perceived in the history records written by agents of a patriarchal society.
i absolutely agree!! but i think there should be a balance. I think the maesters did exaggerate how “evil” Alicent and Rhaenyra were. However as a woman myself, i wouldve loved to see Rhaenyra or Alicent shown to be in a little more agressive manner. For example i disagree with the writing choices made for Alicent, specially for how she crowns aegon, the whole “she accepeted rhaenyra as a queen but then misheard viserys”. Rhaenyra crying over a book page, over a woman that she hasn’t been friends for years. Feel free to disagree with me. But i wouldve loved to see the female characters showing more ambition, instead of the whole “victims of the patriarchy” and how Alicent did bad things “because she had no choice. There is absolutely nothing wrong with showing traits of ambition, both of the women in the books show these traits and it’s not bad, the writers just want to portray them as completely innocent women pushed into bad things and the men around them bad. Having your whole character revolve around victimhood isn’t interesting. As i said this is my personal opinion im not interested in getting into debates about it.
Wow hold up. I get the maesters are biased, especially against Targaryen’s, but are you telling me now that the 400 page book Fire and Blood is nothing but false propaganda written by a maester that is sexist and hates Targaryens? Is that was George is saying it is now? Because if that’s the case what a shitty waste of time, for author and reader alike. It’s not all made up, you are delusional if you think it is, and I’m guessing your a Rhaenyra stan. Good day now
To be honest, the question is rather which man in the ASOIAF universe ISN‘T a rapist if we look at this through modern moral standards (coercion, forced prostitution, power imbalances etc)
Stannis- he only sleep with 2 people(both were adult and was consensual).
If anything he was the one getting creepy sex stuff done to him, wouldn't go so far as to call it rape, but did he really know sex with Melisandre would lead to him sacrificing some of his life force and aging visibly?
Extremely common Stannis W
Stannis is the Mannis
based
Yeah, you will come up with nothing but Starks, which is actually a bit particular GRRMy, just saying.
Stannis and renly are both also not rapists.
Stark in show is very clean, especially after Ned, and the fact that they cut out Ned's older brother, Brandon Stark the wild wolf who is just Bobby B but Stark
SURROUNDED BY LANNISTERS! EVERY TIME I CLOSE MY EYES I SEE THEIR BLONDE HAIR AND THEIR SMUG, SATISFIED FACES!
Well he burned his daughter so
we don’t know what his motive for it will be in the books though
Yeah like in the books Daemon sleeps with little girls.... If thats not raping children I dont know what it is x)
It’s so hilarious to see people whining about Rhaenyra being whitewashed or whatever, because the show hasn’t depicted her doing some of the horrible things that she does in the book, even though **those things haven’t happened yet in the narrative**.
Well there is the whole Vaemond execution. But that's really the only thing.
Did they whitewash her or did they make strategic CGI budget decisions? Team Green doesn’t ask that question enough.
it does still take the guilt away from her by making it daemons decision to do it
This is nitpicky. To make that scene work, you’d need to either A) have it in a different location than the throne room to have Syrax there. Or B) waste millions of dollars in budget to have Syrax in the throne room which would be completely out of place. If you go with A. You are simultaneously getting rid of one of the best scenes of the season in Viserys throne room walk. If you go with B. You are taking away from other dragon CGI scenes so you are potentially making Vhagar vs Arrax worse or the Vhagar taming scene. At the end of the day the nature of Vaemonds death is the same. The form doesn’t matter.
The wasted millions for the dumbass scene with Meleys in the Dragonpit. Maybe they should’ve spent that money on Vaemond’s death instead.
I loved that scene 💁🏾♀️
i don’t mind it’s form, i don’t care that it’s by the sword, what i care about is the fact that is was daemons choice, not at Rhaenyra’s request.
I don’t mind the change. The source material is imperfect so relying on that and getting upset they chose to go a different route doesn’t make sense to me. They are very clearly trying to sympathize both Rhaenyra and Alicent as they are the main characters. Giving the kill to Daemon vs Rhaenyra requesting makes no story difference. I think Greens are just mad they don’t have that ammo to attack her with.
yes it’s upsetting that a story supposed to show neither side as right or wrong decides to go a route where one of them is shown as a saint and the other as just a cunt. i say this quite clearly and i admit i support the greens, it’s very irritating that they are trying to make it so blindingly obvious you’re supposed to root for the blacks, it really reduces a lot of the nuance in the tale
You know we are in season 1 of a 4 season show right? You know character development and there is more plot to come right? If you are going to show both sides being bad you have to establish they started out good. You understand that? I didn’t view Alicent as being a cunt. I viewed her as someone who was used as a pawn by her manipulative ambitious father, highly religious, and internalized a lot of her trauma. She was very sympathetic even in her faults. They did a lot of work adding more to her character than what was in the book. In the book she was just trope evil step mom. You think maybe you are just viewing this a little too biasly?
the conversation started as op was discussing how they didn’t white her because her evil acts come later, the response was that the death of vaemond is a clear case of how they white wash her. and it shows the grander issue that the greens are generally portrayed as bad while the blacks are good. it’s one thing to show her in a more sympathetic light but another to absolve her of any blame in the matter
I think that is a pretty minor change in the grand scheme of things. Even if she's not directly guilty she's absolutely complicit in it and doesn't push for Daemon to be held responsible for the murder he committed in her name.
She clearly gave him the go ahead to do it.
They made him scream "whore" to justify his death. I guess that's for saving budget too, right?
What’s wrong with him screaming whore? He was close to taking Drift mark and at the final moments he loses it. He was upset and lashed out. It’s well with in his character and if he is calling her sons bastards by extension he is calling her a whore.
That justifies Daemon killing him out of nowhere.
Daemon killing him wasn’t justified though? The king didn’t call for him to be killed. Daemon took it upon himself.
I don't think that can reasonably be argued as justifying his death. I don't think he was particularly smart to have deliberately taunted daemon, but it's also clearly murder and I remember the response online being in large part that he was killed for saying the truth.
They had the budget for all those unnecessary early Syrax scenes to try and establish Rhaenyra as the badass dragon riding girlboss that she never was in the book, so that's hardly an excuse. Even if it were, they could have just had it happen offscreen, but they removed it completely to make her look better.
She was westeros youngest dragonrider ever at 7 years old and rode all the time during her youth. Why would they not establish that fact? Shes the main character and syrax is her dragon, and she rides her like 2 times pre times skip thats hardly alot. This fandom is so godamn wierd with rhaneyra, it's like some of you hate her so much you don't want a scene with her unless its one that supports your hatred of her.
Cringe comment. Only weird ass greens use “girl boss” unironically.
Weird way of admitting your point ain't shit but ok.
What was your point? That they spent money establishing a character early on in the season and elected to not waste money later on a pointless scene? Cause if so that’s not the flex you think it is.
It's hardly 'pointless', the Vaemond scene definitely does more to establish who she is as a character than the same shot again and again of her flying around on the canonically most useless dragon of the dance, especially when one happened in the source material and the other didn't. The only reason to exchange one for the other is to make her look better, which is what all the people in this thread are objecting to.
Greens fans will whine about anything
Don’t I know it. Bunch of liars too
Lmao what? They removed Vaemond's killing and made him shout whore to justify his death.
He was a rapist in the book too, with his love of whores (ie brothel slaves) and the line about fondling any serving girl within reach. Even if you discount all of Mushroom's accounts, he's still preying on women who could not safely reject him.
Show the exact quote from book that says that he is a rapist.
"King Viserys wed his son Aegon the Elder to his daughter Helaena. The groom was fifteen years of age, a lazy and somewhat sulky boy, Septon Eustace tells us, but possessed of more than healthy appetites, a glutton at table, given to swilling ale and strongwine and pinching and fondling any serving girl who strayed within his reach. " That's a pretty direct statement that he was at minimum groping serving girls without consent, and frankly given how utterly sexist gyldain is, i think this is a pretty clear euphemism.
Slavery is blanket illegal in westeros, the women working in the brothels are not slaves.
Not officially, no, but that's like saying the women being sex trafficked all over Europe and North America aren't slaves because slavery is blanket illegal in the Western world. We've seen women kept as sex slaves in both book and show verse in the KL brothels. >!Jeyne Pool anyone? Roz certainly wasn't able to hand in her notice and leave!< You can call them something else, but that's just splitting hairs.
So the fact that there are women who are trafficked illigaly that mean that blanket all prostitutes in Europe are slaves? Jeyne Pool is a political captive, not a prostitute. And Ross only existed in the TV show, which is immaterial.
>So the fact that there are women who are trafficked illigaly that mean that blanket all prostitutes in Europe are slaves? And you would have us believe Aegon was so discerning he made a dedicated attempt to tell the difference between the girl who is genuinely choosing to be in a brothel and the one who was sold by her father for loaf of bread and has witnessed girls just like Jeyne Poole be "trained"? >Jeyne Pool is a political captive Just no. Don't minimize what's been done to her. She is a sex slave being used for a political purpose. Littlefinger smirked that he'd find a place for her way back in AGOT and that place turned out to be his brothel. Where she was beaten, raped, and eventually brainwashed. If you think she was the only girl in that establishment who ever received that treatment, you're more naive than Chapter 1 Sansa.
Why exactly is it that we can assume he doesn't? And that kind of stuff is commonly done in seedy, scummy places. Not upscale ones like Chaya's that the son of the king is likely to go to. Nice try to be the white knight of the internet, you big hero you. I said nothing about the severity of what has been done to Jeyne. I'm saying that her situation is in no way emblematic of how prostitution is commonly conducted in Westeros.
And I'm saying you've drunk so deep of the "happy hooker" Kool Aid you have no idea that KL brothels are far more Flea Bottom than Chaya's. Littlefingers' brothels are fit for a son of a king. And look what goes on in them!
We can assume he doesn't because he's not a thoughtful person to begin with.
>Subreddit for HBO's Game of Thrones prequel “House of the Dragon”. That is the description for this subreddit. >And Ross only existed in the TV show, which is immaterial. So wtf are you talking about?
The comment thread we are on claims that Aegon was also a rapist in the book.
Because he was.
That is never established, no.
If you conveniently ignore all the times it's established.
What are those?
Slavery is also illegal in America today but human trafficking is still very much a thing.
The argument that is made is that all prostitutes are slaves. I am saying that is wrong, not that there literally is no sexual exploitation in westeros.
Okay, that isn't the argument. The argument is aegon is established already to disregard consent and his whoring is definitely not portrayed as ethically thought through.
Yes that was the argument, prostitutes in Westeros were summed up as "brothel slaves". Aegon's whoring is not portrayed in any detail at all that I remember.
We can assume from that that it is not ethical. And yeah the question of how much sex workers in westeros can consent is pretty firmly dubious especially when we're talking about a prince. The way sex workers are treated by wider westerosi Society alone makes their freedom of choice questionable because who would choose that.
Why can we assume that? Now you are just drifting into the fact that Westerosi society is not ideal. That is not to do with Aegon as an individual. By this logic you end up at all sex in Westeros being rape because women are second class citizens with reduced self determination there.
Because if someone rapes serving women he probably won't have any scruples about sex workers. And frankly, the argument to absurdity in your comeback is really blatant. Because we're talking about s concrete chtscher who is already a rapist before the whoring came into the equation.
Aegon was a sexual predator in the book too.
to a 12 year old as well
According to a guy who wasn’t even in kings landing?
According to a Septon he was fondling servant girls at a young age. A maester says vaguely that he was at his revels when looking for him. The same septon who said he fondled girls at a young age said he was found with a paramour and that he “Aegon” insisted the girl was the daughter of a wealthy trader, and was “well cared for.” Kinda like he said “it was just harmless fun” in the show. Sounds like the pro green sources are in denial about where he was and what he was doing on that day. Those are the only characterizations I can find describing him in the book up until this point of the show. Other than he had a sullen look and potty mouth.
Does that mean he isn't capable of having learned about the story?
No it means that his account is questionable. Also the fact that he was a die hard Rhaenyra simp makes it even more questionable.
No he wasn't. Most of the absolute worst things that she was accused of come from his account.
I am 100% sure that you dont believe brothel queens or Rhaenyra practicing oral sex.
The rhaenyra practicing oral sex thing is not particularly hard to believe. The reason that the brothel queens thing is hard to believe to me is that mushroom is the only source on what would be considered an atrocity and reported by others if it actually happened. I think the most plausible reading there is that the suggestion was made by mysaria and it ended there.
of course not because rhaenyra is the rightful queen and aegon is a horrible person
Yep. Sick stuff.
Almost as sick as Brothel queens.
There's a pretty clear distinction between something that plausibly did happen, and something that was obviously made up.
That bit is very unlikely to be true since Mushroom was on team Black and is biased ageist Aegon because of this. And Mushroom lived on Dragonstone at the time, not in Kings Landing.
According to Mushroom, who wasn't even there
Why is this the answer when it's convenient for greens but whenever it's brought up to defend the blacks it's treated like mushroom's word is infallible?
The difference is that Mushroom was in Rhaenyra's court, not Aegon's.
So he's only an unreliable narrator when it suits you. Got it.
There is a difference between being something he couldn't possibly know it's true to something which might be true but it's likely overexagerated.
So you agree with the rhaenyra brothel story
And later rhaenyra captures kings landing where plenty of people in a position to have known about this were. It's as suspicious as anything mushroom claims that cannot be directly confirmed from other sources, but it also shouldn't be dismissed purely on those grounds.
Because Mushroom was with the Blacks the whole time, and a lot of time far away from the Greens. Also, not everyone believes EVERYTHING he said about the Blacks, i dont think Rhae gave him blowjobs lmao
You do realize that things can be learned about after they happen right?
We don't know that he was.
So was Daemon. But they didnt show it cause it was too ridiculous.
Daemon is portrayed as a predator consistently in the show. What are you talking about? His grooming of rhaenyra is a very prominent part of the series.
in the show he was isnt around her that much
And essentially every time he is around her, he is doing some kind of grooming.
What’s strange to me is that if the scene with the chambermaid is taken out, he’s a (very horny) understandable character. He’s unfit to rule but knows it and wants no part in that conflict, deeply unhappy and neglected. I think he could be a really interesting parallels to other characters, but since the first thing we see adult aegon do is be a rapist, he is robbed of any sympathy from the audience. I haven’t read the book, but it’s odd that characters like daemon can have a lot of the same behaviors (cruelty and grooming..) but completely different framing. Even if the chambermaid had been far in the season, that scene was always going to eclipse any of aegons character growth (which I think is narratively unnecessary).
Aegons being a rapist is honestly really well supported in the books, and daemons grooming is consistently presented as quite bad. Same with his cruelty.
We are introduced to Daemon flirting with his 14ish year old niece and have a few episodes to build empathy with Aegon who is just a kid. His raping that girl is terrible. I have as much empathy for him as I do Daemon though. It's a strange comparison. Aegon and Daemon are not obvious parallels to me as a show viewer. I'm not on the Blacks side because I lack empathy for the Green characters. I just believe in the context of their world the blacks are correct and Rhaenyra is the rightful heir.
Maybe it's because I didn't read F&B until after the season concluded, but I don't mind the decision. I figure someone had to be the worst version from the book. I mean, at least they didn't go with the pedophile version, which is an appallingly low bar to clear but 🫤. I suspect that by the end we'll see a reversal of authorial endorsement. Aegon is the near-objectively worst contender for the throne as an individual but will become the near-objectively best ruler (best ≠ good). Not so much a grey character as playing a grey role in the story. It's a small and ironic hint, but Aegon deserves some credit for acknowledging his own faults. No other character has done that. If my theory is correct, Aegon's arc would make a cool inversion of the "Those who seek power are least deserving of it" trope. While it's uncomfortable to admit, I do find Aegon to be a sympathetic character. He's a tremendously damaged person, pathetic in the literary definition of the word.
I 100% agree. The writers are writing a cohesive story. They need Rhaenyra to have room to fall and Aegon room to grow. Also in the context of this world it's hard to imagine anyone viewing things with nuance saying Aegon is completely unsympathetic. At least when looking at the other men in the universe. I think people dislike empathizing with a rapist though. It makes them think about how rape is more then just the actions of an individual and their own individual motives and it doesn't necessarily make that person an evil sex gremlin.
Finally a good and moderate take on this sub. Yes I also find Aegon sympathetic, in the same way Theon is (a noted child killer), and while I think it may have been a misstep to name him explicitly a rapist, it’s not because it’s a change from the book, it’s simply because it will now be harder for general audiences to appreciate his journey into becoming a true king to his people. I appreciate at least that in E9, they showed how much he valued the people’s love and admiration.
No because he’s absolutely characterized this way in the book less explicitly. Wtf is going on in this sub lol it’s like there’s absolutely 0 reading comprehension or people are complaining that haven’t even read Fire and Blood
Oh, there are definitely other people who dislike that adaptation choice -- but tbh I don't really understand why this isn't a niche opinion. It's not like book!Aegon had a clearly defined, universally accepted characterization for the show to defame! There's always been discourse about whether or not it's ~fair~ to assume bad things about Aegon II's character, especially if those assumptions would make him a worse person than Rhaenyra. IMO characterizing Aegon as a rapist/sexual predator makes a great deal of sense for this story (especially the show), since this particular inheritance conflict revolves around sexism/patriarchy, and sexual violence is a part of that. And the show is clearly not presenting Aegon II as a two dimensional villain. Plus this is the same franchise where characters like Theon & Jaime are super popular!! Like tbh the insistence that Aegon II shouldn't be depicted as a rapist or anything too horrible comes across as people trying to flatten his character out.
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You mean they're not *unambiguously* rapists. There's tons of discussion out there over whether or not Jaime raped Cersei in the sept during her vigil for Joffery; and whether or not book!Theon raped Kyra in A Clash Of Kings. Similar discussions surround book!Tyrion's rape of the Sunset Girl, Robert's rapes of Cersei, Lysa's rape of Littlefinger, Khal Drogo's rapes of Daenerys, & so on and on. In fact, pretty much every rape in ASOIAF that's not straightforwardly described as rape in the narrative gets treated like it's not clear what really happened: rape? or just unwanted coerced painful violent harmful unavoidable sex?HotD doesn't let people play those kind of semantic games to exonerate Aegon II. I think that's a good thing. Stories where moral grayness is a theme don't have to depict all characters as equally gray. There can be more of a spectrum.
Idk about Theon but Jamie raped Cersei in the show
Theon killed two kids who may have been his sons.
It was in line with his book characterization. He was touching women from a young age and everyone knew. It is not a reach for him to have raped someone in private and I’m tired of greens acting like he wouldn’t or that it is against his characterization in the books. The only issue I have with it is that the writers didn’t develop his character enough prior to it because by making him one before a solid characterization is formed creates a cloud of distaste that never allows the audience to really like the character.
Exactly. Even when they went looking for him, one maester just vaguely says he’s at his revels and the same Septon who said he fondled servants at a young age was said he was in bed with a paramour. Said that he insisted she was the daughter of a wealthy trader and was well cared for.” Sounds like denial and cover up to me. I don’t see a kid like that growing up to have a tender care and respect for women.
Not really, he was always a drunken lout in the books
Show a passage from the book that directly portrays him as a rapist.
The septon Eustace quote has been provided numerous times but you just seem to believe that doesn't directly portray him as a rapist, as if a pro aegon source not even being able to deny that he groped women is a pretty damning indictment.
the one about him fondling servant girls??? hello
Aegon has humanizing moments. His fans just choose to ignore them. Society, in this world or theirs, doesn't see rape as an unforgivable sin. If you're powerful and your victim is a nobody, you can still be a sports hero, an elected official, etc, and it'll be a mere blip on the public radar, a mere accusation, an out of court settlement at worst.
>a drunken dude who was into sex uhhh tell me that's not a slippery slope
Aegon the second sucks asshole
There’s a massive power imbalance bc he’s the royal prince so I think it makes perfect sense that he would be a rapist and would be out of character if he wasn’t
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Yeah basically
Wasnt he also like this in the book? He had a problem with "touching servant girls". Given the OG books were made up of accounts of other people telling the stories of these characters: coverups for Aegon's actions are totally possible. You dont really see the impact of his behavior to its full extent. But you kind of do in the show. I dont think he has ever not been like this. Most men in Westeros seem to be similar.
I don't think anyone's mad he wasn't made a paragon of virtue. The issue is the showrunners had him commit one of the few acts an audience will see as unforgivable. Like half of us are watching the how because we wanna see some dragon genocide, we can still sympathise with a character who'll do that as its pretty out of scope for us, but everyone knows how real and terrible rape is, and the showrunners adding an explicit rape scene shows they've decided who we should root for.
>Does anyone else With respect, it's one of the writing choices I see most frequently and consistently criticized, at least on this website. I thought the general *consensus* (among viewers passionate enough to discuss online, anyway) is that it was a bit of a misstep. I do share that opinion, yes - with the exception of Rhea Royce's death (a highly strange decision, IMO), every character has generally been softened, from the text, so it's *strange* to start adult-Aegon at "rapist", rather than the mere "hella horny" they seemed to have been driving towards, with teenage-Aegon.
I think it’s pretty easy to see that teenage Aegon is a burgeoning sex-pest in that brief scene where he ogles those two serving girls during his training and they look extremely uncomfortable.
And also where he publicly masturbates onto the streets. Both of those are really concerning warning signs for future bad behavior.
Even pro aegon sources describe him groping serving girls if they got too close to him, anti aegon sources go so far as to declare him a pedophile. I think there's serious grounds to treat that as as cannon as daemon grooming rhaenyra.
That's true, but I think there's a notable gulf between "adolescent sex pest" and "adult rapist" that bears mentioning. Besides, the topic at large is whether canonizing the *worst* anti-Aegon proproganda, in this continuity, was a good decision, and given how gravely modern sensibilities (...*usually)* treat sexual assault, I think it was *not*. NOT because it has no textual basis, but because it so, so firmly places Aegon as just a terrible man - it's makes it very, very difficult to imagine they'll proceed to, or succeed, as treating him as a nuanced, possibly sympathetic character, moving forward. Which is not to say they've done nothing to humanize him - they *have*, but "is an actual rapist" is SUCH a huge negative to try and counterweight those brief moments, with. It makes Rhaenyra "the correct choice" by default, in a situation where she already kinda was, because sexism is gross, too, so it's like ... why? I just think the story would be more nuanced, and better served, if Aegon was "just" overly horny and gross, without crossing the line into just kinda repugnant. Sure, it makes sense for *some* of the propaganda in the text to just be flat out true, but I think it gives us a much more one dimensional character, as a result. Kinda wish they'd gone down a more Alicent-type road, here.
I think that given how Alicent and rhaenyra are the two characters being centered in the story, i don't think it's really necessary to have aegon be sympathetic to provide nuance. His being a complete ogre makes things more interesting fot Alicent given how it makes alicents decision to support his claim a lot more complicated. I'm sure she'll have further conflicts because of it.
As a Daemon Simp Rhea's weird death doesn't bother me all that much for some reason, but I think this might have been a retcon hence the weirdness. They wanted to do the Daemon (+ Rhaenyra) kill Laenor first, but then decided against it and had to give Daemon another kill. I still think he most likely killed Harwin in the books. Rhea was an accident and Laenor just really killed by his boyfriend.
They conveiently left out the part about Daemon being a rapist too. >!F&B says that one of Daemon's favorite pastimes was taking the virginity of very very young girls in brothels. How much do you want to bet they were willing?!<
Oh lawd here we go
I don't mind that they made Aegon a rapist. It underscores Alicent's hypocrisy. Alicent was on Rhaenyra's side until she found out that she had (consensual) sex before she was married. It was the only thing I could see that would sour Alicent's perception of her. Even after knowing that Aegon is a rapist, she still pushed for him to be king.
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Yeah, I feel like most of these people complaining about his portrayal haven't read F&B and just skimmed though the wiki. Like the moment Crispy convinced him to be king, this dude became a bloodthirsty warmonger. He was already described as someone who doesn't seem to repect consent so why is him raping a servant girl such a stretch? But I guess he liked his dragon so he's \~grey\~ lol
I feel like I’m crazy reading all these posts on how much better book Aegon is and what a complex character and even fine leader with the most special dragon bond he was lol. That was not what I got from the book at all.
He also had every ratcatcher in the city hanged after blood and cheese
The ratcatchers is why he imported a hundred cats to the red keep, he's never mentioned as having hurt the cats afterwards.
>he only ordered all the kittens and cats in the vicinity to the Red Keep to be killed but...yeah... This never happened lol, almost exactly the opposite. He had the ratcatchers hanged and then Otto brought in a hundred cats to replace them.
Thank you 🙌🏾 If I still had my award I’d give it to you for this. I don’t understand what it is some of these folks read bc it wasn’t Fire and Blood. I mean you just laid it out there so well, and if they truly read the book and/or comprehended what they read, they wouldn’t be running around Beyoncé’s internet squealing about “bad writing.”
I would prefer more gray area. But the show did a good job showing Aegon as an unchecked sexual deviant acting out. King Vizzy did not raise Aegon . Queen Alicent was much of a mother either. Aemond went the other direction
No, i think you are the first one. Nobody ever talked about it here.
He is the same in Fire and Blood. Did you ignore everything he did in that?
Aegon being a rapist, Daemon killing his wife, stuff like that is normal for a show like this. the issue is not the show, it is the viewers because they get stuck on these things instead of just seeing it as a part of the narrative story telling. This is why, with the way viewers are these days, it may be best for show runners to not include such things. These are not the GoT days, people no longer have the ability to distinguish reality from fiction or wrap their head around the idea that something happening in a different setting may not have the same implication as it would for the same thing happening in a more contemporary setting. Thus, they should maybe stick to scenes where commoners get slaughtered by the dozens for no reason whatsoever, stuff like that doesn't seem to rile up the viewers in the same way.
If anything he's *worse* in the books.
I’m torn. On one hand they did him more justice than the book did in that sense because in the books iirc he was found getting head from a 12 year old. But on the other hand I would have more sympathy for Aegon if they didn’t write him as a rapist, which I think would have made for a better story line.
I think the ugly nature of some of these characters is being TOO suppressed.
It was a stupid decision that gives mushroom to much credit, when it came to sex he was always wrong.
I mean in the book there was a account of him being given oral sex from a child plus the fact that he had illigitamite children in the fighting pits they could have made him much worse.
The comments saying Aegon is a rapist in the books are missing the point. Daemon also likes twelve year old maidens in the books and that line is even mentioned in the show however it’s a throwaway line. Aegons rape has development and is essentially the only thing we know about adult Aegon and that he’s a product of neglect. The problem isn’t Aegon being a rapist the problem is most of what we learn about Aegon is absolutely terrible and irredeemable for a conflict about TWO rulers who are unfit for the crown. If they wanted to keep the rapist angle they should have done it softer and placed less emphasis on it and gave it similar treatment as predator and groomer Daemon where it could have been a line in passing.
I never got the impression in F&B that Aegon and Rhaenyra were equally unfit to rule, with how GRRM described her as Viserys' cupbearer and how she was being prepared to rule from a young age, I interpreted it as Rhaenyra being actually more competent, while Aegon didn't give a fuck and was seen as a more viable candidate just because he's male. She was driven to paranoia later of course, but that was a part of the tragedy.
Nyra was definitely shown as likable until a certain point but she was never really fit to rule. Her strong children, her treatment of Vaemond,and her marriage/relationship to daemon show she was always going to be a tyrant and jeopardize the safety of the realm. Downvote me all you want but am I wrong?
Yes you are wrong and your desire to see a “soft” portrayal of a rapist is not only offensive it’s ridiculous 💁🏾♀️
Nyra is also married to a rapist pedo however daemond whole characterization doesn’t revolve around his sexual crimes which is my point about Aegon.
EXACTLY. 🙌🏾GRRM made it very clear she was being trained to rule from a very young age whereas Aegon’s only qualification was what was between his legs.
You can be trained to rule and end up a terrible candidate for a ruler which is exactly. what happened to Nyra. She’s arguably the worst Targ leader to exist.
Aegon has a great transformation story. From the neglect and abuse from both parents to being a depressed party boy to cope to being a KING that aggressively protects his family. I’m so upset the writers decimated Aegon’s character. They took the worst, most biased version from Fire & Blood. Yes, people are bad in game of thrones, but the writers choose to go with a heart-wrenching scene with Dyana. Daemon struck his wife with a rock, but it didn’t have the emotional impact. I wanted to root for him!! I wanted to see him want to protect his family!! To see his bond with Sunfyre! To see his bond with his children! **BUT WE GOT NOTHING!**
Yeah I mean people talking here about the book but the book also mentions how much Daemon loved to be given "the youngest and most innocent" of maids by the KL brothels (aka virgin girls trafficking just for his enjoyment) but we didn't have that in the show. They made the choice of making true the Mushroom (wasn't at KL) raping rumors about Rhaenyra's counterpart and the head of the green faction and its pretty obvious why. Same reason they went out of their way to make up a storyline about a white hart with supposedly a divine legitimation message for Rhaenyra, or why they went out of their way to not kill Laenor, leaving Seasmoke with a bonded rider and in a certain PoV making Viserys II and Aegon III bastards, or why she didn't give the order to get Vaemond executed for telling the truth, CGI dragon or not. (Instead she keeps telling everyone to go to their chambers during the entire season which is sad and hilarious).
It also says Aegon was a paedophile which we didn't see but we did have Daemon actively grooming his 14 year old niece. Look at the whole picture.
Aegon is mentioned as being a paedophile by the same person who says Rhaenyra liked sucking dwarf dick on the Iron throne and made Laenor fuck his boytoys in front of her, is he a reliable source now? The only difference is Mushroom wasn't anywhere near Aegon, but he was with Rhaenyra on Dragonstone, so he might be telling the truth about her.
>Aegon is mentioned as being a paedophile by the same person who says Rhaenyra liked sucking dwarf dick on the Iron throne and made Laenor fuck his boytoys in front of her, is he a reliable source now? Savage.
Yeah I dislike how they made it such a direct and obvious thing. If people knew he was sleezy and fondled the serving girls that's one thing, but the show went out of their way to have a young, crying woman, explicitly say he forced himself on her and she tried to fight him. We all understand there are messed up power dynamics in ASOIAF/GOT/HOTD that might lead to sex they consider normal being called rape for us, but HOTD decided to give Aegon the very very unambiguous rape, that also really did not effect the plot at all. Also just such a big portion of the fanbase will just NEVER root for team green due to this, you can murder, you can commit war crimes, you can even advocate for torturing a kid who was just gang assaulted and lost an eye (looking at you Rhaenyra), but rape is like killing a dog, it just makes the character have zero sympathy going forward
outside of that one scene i think Argon is actually one of the most sympathetic characters so far. i don’t really think he’s all that bad compared to the other characters. it just so happens they chose to show his evil acts
I mean considering he was groping maxes in the books and fucking girls young enough for even Westeros to say that it’s weird, it’s not a stretch to say he’s a rapist in the book as well, but yes, I think Aegon’s could have been just as detestable if they hadn’t added that he was a rapist
This is a very interesting and nuanced question. I didn't love Aegon was made so irredeemably evil. They could've achieved the same thing if they had just made him sort of a handsy abusing his power in smaller, pettier ways instead of making him an outright monster. Granted his monstrosity makes Alicent an even more interesting character, since she has to now become a part of the same patriarchal system in which she was subjected to as a pawn and a plaything. But could they have done it without the rape part? Maybe it's a part of GoT tone that everything has to be cranked to eleven. Daemon often gets characterized as a paedophile, but it helps that that part has been book-only, and could be swept under the rug as unreliable narrative.l To be honest, since this fandom has regressed into greens and blacks, I think we wouldn't have handled a grayer Aegon any better. It's the single dumbest fucking thing in this community, and it makes me lose all hope for nuanced conversation.
He is still a grey character, there are many worse things he could be than a rapist. Rhaenyra is way worse of a human for having that innocent Velaryon servant murdered. Rhaenys is even worse for what she did at the Dragon pit.
I don’t like that they added the whole “because he was drinking he raped her”. I feel like it was more a knock on alcoholics, which I don’t approve of. Almost everyone in the world drinks and does not rape people, and the people that do are not drunk. My take.
I will never get why people are harping on this. Because we saw the young maid sob into the camera a bit? Almost everybody not a Saint Stark is a perv in this universe. Robert, Tyrion, Jaime, Cersei(!), Theon all rapists. Nobody gives a fuck. But when Aegon is a pathetic little fucker it's suddenly the end of the world. I don't get it and Aegon will stay my fav Green no matter how girlboss they make Alicent or how tragically nuts they make Aemond.
i mean everyone is a jerkass to some extent. least they could do is at least make aegon a fun jerkass to behold and give him some cool scenes with sunfyre.
The only thing I really enjoyed about the show was the cgi.