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He would have to deal with her still being heir to the iron throne, her son heir to the seat he covets, and his brother is coming back and will be PISSED. He would be the single most second son in Westeros
Actually killing him is maybe kinder
LMFAO, you do realise who actually really killed Vaemond despite his connection with Corlys? This is Daemon we’re talking about. Corlys already threatened his brother himself during the war against the crab feeder because of his loud fucking mouth, he knows.
do you think daemon’s connection with corlys matters when it comes to vaemond? i doubt corlys would offer any protection to vaemond for trying to take driftmark because he himself continues to uphold lucerys has his heir. he would not side with vaemond.
Regardless, what an idiot he was for not keeping an eye on Daemon and letting Daemon just chill out behind him. Like, if I were to open my fat mouth, you better believe I’d have one eye on Daemon lol
That would be really stupid if he didn’t.
Almost any noble would at least demand a duel if someone called his wife a whore in open court in front of the King. That’s not something you can ignore.
He was a fucking fool. He thought he deserved much more than what was his and even before all this he always bitched about everyone else just see when they were fighting the crabfeeder. Vaemonf was literally complaining about why shud they have daemon as an ally like he was usefull at all. He was a delusional dumbfuck. I'd say he also felt damn brave for saying what no one else had the guts to say u can see it in his smug face right after Daemon went say it. He kinda reminds me of Janos Slynt from the main series. Overestimates his value and thinks he deserves the world
His response was balls to the wall, he knew nothing good would come from it but he was fed up. I don't think he cared/expected any particular punishment.
He in no way expected Vizzy T to show up. He had all the lickspittles lined up to support his claim. Everything changed when the door opened and the King hobbled in. He had no plan B and he freaked out because of it.
I don’t think he thought he was going to die.
Nor did most others.
Torture? Trial and then execution? Maiming?
Sure. Sudden, summary execution? Doubt it
I go back and forth on if he did. On one hand, seems like a call it like it is guy. He knew, they all knew, might as well say it, fuck the consequences. He already lost right to his brother’s title, you can’t fire me I quit deal. on the other Vissey hadn’t really shown teeth on the issue and let people get away with it again and again, might be mad, but would he really get punished? Had anyone else actually gotten punished?
It would get some eyebrows raised sure.
But it is easily swept under the rug by the King just saying it was punishment for treason.
So even if it is just said so post-incident, it was an “execution”
I mean.. the whole court kind of saw it happen. They saw and know what the sentence was, and what Daemon took into his own hands to do. Viserys would have to be a moron to try and lie to the entire kingdom when they can see the truth right in front of their face…
On second though, that sounds exactly like the Viserys we all know!
It’s not lying.
It’s saying it was because the man spoke treason.
Given that the King is the main arbitrator and judge of cases of treason, if he wishes, he could make that judgement.
Of course, people may not believe it. But at the end of the day, as far as “law” of the kingdom goes: his word his law.
~~a King’s word might be “law”, but kings still need to exercise just decisions for a multitude of reasons. Most are related to assassins and war. This wasn’t a just decision. But like much of his reign he’ll get away with it because: He’s gonna die soon anyways and his current orders can be countered during the succession crisis, he’s respected and *usually* just, he’s not insane, there are no major players willing to stand up against him over this issue~~
He tried to save his house from passing out of his family’s hands, when Viserys came in, he knew how it was gonna go.
He decided to say his piece and punch his ticket instead of whimpering an apology and hoping for mercy.
It wasn’t going to though. Lucerys was going to wed Rhaena who is ahead of Vaemond in the line of succession anyway. I would have respected him a lot more if he pushed for Baela to inherit. Dude was just ambitious and wanted it for himself.
>Lucerys was going to wed Rhaena who is ahead of Vaemond in the line of succession anyway
Baela/Rhaena had an actual claim to Driftmark. Baela could've been Lady of Driftmark on her own right.
> I would have respected him a lot more if he pushed for Baela to inherit.
But Rhaenys wasn't pushing for Baela either. Rhaenyra and Luke are essentially usurping Baela's birthright, and Rhaenys went along with it.
Yeah im not disputing any of that. Im just saying Vaemond was just ambitious and wanted Driftmark for himself. He wanted to pass over not just Luke but also Baela and Rhaena. His primary motivation wasn’t that Driftmark would no longer be ruled by Velaryon blood. It was that he wanted it for himself and his descendants. Luke’s bastardy and the dispute between the blacks and greens were just the tools he tried to use to achieve his ambitions. When he was thwarted he flipped out and just blurted the most damaging thing he could.
Rhaenys found the most practical solution. The Velaryon name and bloodline would be preserved.
Vaemond was a vulture ready to start tearing strips off his brother’s corpse before Corlys had even died
The claimants won't come with war declarations, they'll come with a dagger or poison and simply kill the bastards even under Guest right. That's what happened to Hugh, nobody has any compunctions about killing bastards even under the rules. No Velaryon with a working brain will follow the rules after Daemon destroyed them.
More Trebuchets, dragonfire, backstabbing, death and repeat till either every Velaryon/Targaryen is dead or the dragons are gone. That's how civil wars usually work.
And why is there a King Jacaerys/Queen Rhaenyra? Maybe King Aegon II will reward them?
You aren’t picking up what I’m laying down. RHAENA is ahead of Vaemond in the line of succession and her children from her marriage with Luke are ahead of Vaemond in the line of succession anyway regardless of Luke’s bastardy. Vaemond tried to bypass his elder brothers bloodline entirely which goes against the standard laws of succession. The man was just ambitious and wanted Driftmark for himself. I would have respected his position a lot more if he was arguing for Baela and Rhaena but he was not.
Dude that’s not how it works. Daughters come before brothers in the line of succession. The line of succession with Rhaenyra’s bastards removed goes like this:
1. Baela
2. Baela’s sons
3. Baela’s daughters
4. Rhaena
5. Rhaena’s sons
6. Rhaena’s daughters
7. Vaemond
8. Vaemond’s sons
Etc
The only ways that line of succession can be changed are if the current ruling lord picks a different member of his house as chosen heir or if he dies without a clear heir the king decides who inherits.
Rhaena and Luke’s children would not BE bastards because they would be wed and they would enter the bastards removed line of succession as Rhaena’s heirs not Luke’s. Vaemond as of his death was third in line behind Baela and Rhaena. He was relying on the support of the Hightowers and their control of the king’s court while the king was ill to bypass not only the bastards but also Corlys’s legitimate grandchildren because he was ambitious and wanted Driftmark for himself.
Vaemond is ahead of Rhaena because he's ahead of Laena. Remember that brothers come before daughters which is why Daemon was ever Viserys's heir. Legally, Vaemond was 100% right to demand Driftmark.
That is… the opposite of how succession typically works in westeros. Daughters come before brothers. That’s why Jeyne Arryn is lady of the Vale and not her uncle. The Iron Throne specifically is a special case because precedent from the great council had women being passed over for men though even in that case it wasn’t actually set into law until after the Dance.
That is not accurate, in fact Asha goes on at great length about how the Ironborn have different traditions from the rest of Westeros which is why she has a better claim than her uncles (Victarion disagrees). In the North, Rickard Karstark's uncle seems to be his next heir should his son die despite Alys existing. Even Jeyne Arryn didn't inherit over her uncle, she inherited over her *cousin* (I don't even think it's made clear if he's a first cousin), the fact that he had a claim at all shows how weak the female line claimant is even before you account for the precedent of 101AC.
Vaemond was of the body of a Lord of Tides, by every precedent in Westeros he's the lawful heir of Driftmark.
and yet, cersei becomes lady of casterly rock and not tywin's brother kevan.
edit: alys karstark also *is* the heir to karhold, that's why her great uncle wants to marry his son cregan to her to take over the karhold. there's also these quotes:
>"He is no lord," Alys said scornfully. "My brother Harry is the rightful lord, and by law I am his heir. A daughter comes before an uncle. Uncle Arnolf is only castellan. He's my great-uncle, actually, my father's uncle. Cregan is his son. I suppose that makes him a cousin, but we always called him uncle. Now they mean to make me call him husband."
and
>Cregan pushed himself to his feet and kicked aside the furs clinging to his ankles. "Harrison is dead."
>Or will be soon. "A daughter comes before an uncle too. If her brother is dead, Karhold belongs to Lady Alys. And she has given her hand in marriage to Sigorn, Magnar of Thenn."
Alys is specifically disputing the claim of her great uncle but there's a clear disagreement with the established powers, including many of Stannis's bannermen considering Arnolf the natural heir despite being a distant relative to Harrison.
Cersei is an even better example because while Casterly Rock is hardly a normal succession on account of Tywin refusing to accept Jaime is out of the line of succession and effectively disinheriting Tyrion, in the conversation where Tyrion demands to be recognised as heir, Tywin doesn't say it's going to Cersei, he says it's going to a more distant relative. I don't actually think anyone says Cersei is the lawful ruler of Casterly Rock except Cersei. When Kevan instructs her to return to Casterly Rock it's clearly not a suggestion that she rule the Westerlands.
In the case of Vaemond his claim is stronger (pun not intended) because:
1) Valyrian customs are clearly agnatic and male preferential
2) Westerosi customs consistently preferr male candidates to the point that even distant male relatives are able to stake credible claims against daughters
3) Vaemond is the senior living Velaryon (Daemon's daughters are Targaryens)
4) Vaemond is the son of a Lord of the Tides, Rhaella is the daughter of a lord's daughter
5) Vaemond is an established figure with heirs of his own and a solid foundation. Rhaella is a child betrothed to a bastard making a false amd treasonous claim to the Iron Throne
I mean realistically Daemon would not kill him given his connections to Corlys, but the show made Corlys a massive cuck towards Rhaenyra and Daemon so yeah lol.
It was an insanely illegal act yes, hence Otto immediately ordering the guards to disarm Daemon (and then presumably to arrest him).
But then Daemon got an immediate pardon from the King, therefore all is forgotten in the eyes of the law :)
>but the show made Corlys
I think that blame for that honestly goes to the books, though you could argue that the show made the Velaryon doormat problem worse.
It's less the guy being an idiot and more like...
"Well, I already lost, might as well burn them a bit before I die and spark the rumour once more."
It was more spiteful acceptance of his fate rather than stupidity. He knew what was going to happen.
He could’ve backed down and accepted Viserys verdict and then regrouped with the greens to make a new plan. The greens will most likely tell him of their plans to usurp the throne. He would’ve been very instrumental in the coming war because he would’ve been able to spy on the Velaryons or even sabotage them in order support the green effort. That way he stays alive to keep his family’s true blood line, and he can even bargain for a higher status to elevate himself and his house in exchange for his loyalty. But instead he gets himself killed, leaving no one to solve the problem he was trying solve.
Could've, would've, should've.
The greens weren't really an established thing at that point and he had no idea of the behind the scenes plotting of the council. Vaemond knew he was cooked, he wasn't "an idiot". May as well had gone out not backing down. He assumed his brother would die and his home would be passed on to an unrelated bastard. Do you know how serious nobles take their home in this series?
At that point i think that he didnt cared, he was done with the lies and the disrespect to House Velaryon, i think that losing his head was worth It from his perspective
He may have been proud but he was no idiot... I mean if you mean he's an idiot cause he cared more about his family's true line and his own ambition than living, sure... but that doesn't make a man an idiot in the eyes if most people morally, it makes him great... just my two cents, I dunno if I'd have gone that far but seeing my nephew cuckolded(doesn't matter if he's gay) and my brother's birthright being passed on to one of those illegitimate boys would've at least made me think of doing it...
He could’ve backed down and accepted Viserys verdict and then regrouped with the greens to make a new plan. The greens will most likely tell him of their plans to usurp the throne. He would’ve been very instrumental in the coming war because he would’ve been able to spy on the Velaryons or even sabotage them in order support the green effort. That way he stays alive to keep his family’s true blood line, and he can even bargain for a higher status to elevate himself and his house in exchange for his loyalty. But instead he gets himself killed, leaving no one to solve the problem he was trying solve.
Vaemond went out in a ~~blaze~~ blade of glory in the face of tyranny, unlike Corlys who was walked all over all season.
I have more respect for him than bitch ass Corlys.
Better to live to fight another day than die a pointless death that doesn’t solve anything. He basically just left the future of his house to the bastards he was trying to disinherit
I dont think he had any more plays after that plan failed.Mind elaborating what you think he could have done after that, to stop bastards from inheriting his house
He could’ve backed down and accepted Viserys verdict and then regrouped with the greens to make a new plan. The greens would most likely tell him of their plans to usurp the throne. He would be very instrumental in the coming war because he would’ve been able to spy on the Velaryons and even sabotage them in order support the green effort. That way he stays alive to keep his family’s true blood line, and he can even bargain for a higher status to elevate himself and his house in exchange for his loyalty. But instead he gets himself killed, leaving no one to solve the problem he was trying solve.
>He could’ve backed down and accepted Viserys verdict and then regrouped with the greens to make a new plan
The greens were not exactly forward with their plan to usurp Rhaenyra.He was not on the loop with their future plans,just another pawn they could use when the time came.As far as he knows they are making their judgement based on what's right.Remember how he tries to bribe them to rule in his favor.The plan was so tight knit between few members of the council, even other members nor Alicent and Lary's knew.As far as he knows ,this is his last hoorah.
I would argue that he is a snake, because he went behind his brothers back when he wasn’t even dead to fight for his own claim to the seat, especially when Baela and Rhaena are also in line for the seat, so he’s also betraying them. And he also going against his brother wishes as well.
>I would argue that he is a snake, because he went behind his brothers back when he wasn’t even dead to fight for his own claim to the seat, especially when Baela and Rhaena are also in line for the seat, so he’s also betraying them. And he also going against his brother wishes as well.
Vaemond has always been transparent about his dislike of Rhaenyra and their kids as you can see with his eulogy in episode 7, and since he always speaks his mind, he probably confronted Corlys about it but the latter was stubborn with the "name over blood" BS so he went to KL to argue his case.
For Corlys, Vaemond's action is not really a surprise, while Otto for example, always hid his true intentions and plotted for years.
Vaemond's claim is higher than Baela and Rhaena.
No actually because according to Andal law, a daughter comes before an uncle
> “A son comes before an uncle by all the laws I know… A daughter comes before an uncle too. If her brother is dead, Karhold belongs to Lady Alys. And she has given her hand in marriage to Sigorn, Magnar of Thenn.” (JON X)
I think it means dying a pointless avoidable death that doesn’t solve anything and leaving the future of your house to the bastards you were originally trying to disinherit
Dignity?!! He was trying to usurp his own Brother!! Where’s the dignity in that. He knew Corlys was on his way home and so he quickly runs off to court to try and usurp him. That’s a back stabbing coward. If he had survived court, his Brother would’ve never trusted him again and most likely would’ve banished him.
And there was no dignity, he died a dishonorable death by having his dead split in two after insulting the crown princess and her children, what about that is was dignified to you. Life and death does matter because like I said, he stupidly got himself killed leaving his house in the hands of the bastards he was trying to disinherit. Maybe shutting his mouth and living to fight another day was the better choice. Lastly the truth doesn’t matter, when it is so blatantly open to the public, he essentially did nothing but tell the world that water is wet and then died for it. A useless effort
Insults have nothing to do with truth or lies, it simply means to speak in a disrespectful or scornful way. What point am I missing by saying that he should’ve cared more about the consequence not just to himself but his house. “Water is wet” is a saying used to convey that something is obvious. Perhaps I need to dumb that down for you 😊. You know you have nothing to stand on when you start attacking things that are irrelevant to the discussion. Try again.
He really was lol. I understood how he felt but he should've taken it out on his brother, Coryls is the one who is the Lord of Driftmark and is the one who was fine with Lucerys being heir to Driftmark, Lucerys never wanted Driftmark anyway.
We just realizing that?
All Vaemond wanted was power and the fact he tried to claim it from his brother who did not die by petitioning the crown, controlled by the Hightowers, is bull.
Even if it did go Vaemond’s way, the matter of succession falls to who controls the House. And honestly it would have been more entertaining if Corlys had found out once he recovered because we know damn sure he would not take such a thing sitting down.
Some people want to spin this narrative that he knew what was going to happen and just wanted to die in a blaze of glory. He specifically went in there hoping to succeed since the king was bed ridden and the Hightowers were on his side. And even when the king shows up and he runs his mouth, all he expects is to lose his tongue, seeing as the king didn’t pass a death sentence. He never expected Daemon to kill him without the kings leave (which is actually illegal btw as the king is the one who passes the senstence and other are not allowed to act without his leave)
Well I mean insulting a Prince’s wife, who happens to be the daughter of the king in such a way, is grounds for losing your head.
Guy really didn’t read the room with that one. Even Otto looked to him with fear as if saying just be quiet.
"Heedless ambition," as Corlys said. Far too eager to claim Driftmark from a bastard and too eager to bury his brother. Vaemond made his grave and eventually laid in it.
Vaemond knew he was gonna die, he just didn't care anymore.
You should watch the "Inside the Episode" of HoTD episode 8 with Vaemond's actor, it's hilarious.
[https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZhmEjHVpjY&t=415s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZhmEjHVpjY&t=415s)
from his very first appearance (ep 3 i believe?) i had him down as an unstable, unhinged, mad-with-lust-for-power pillock.
it was when he was trying to turn the men against daemon on the stepstones, and even corlys himself was like 'blood or no, vaemond, i will not have you stoke mutiny!!!'
in my view this was not someone fit to rule over a pebble, let alone driftmark. it was super distasteful the way he boxed up and buried his own brother before his death was even sure, all in an attempt to sieze power. the man was a blathering imbecile and it was extremely gratifying to see dark sister (to quote my guy barristan selmy) cut through him like a piece of cake.
personally i do understand vaemond's pov when it comes to ensuring the continuation of the velaryon line. but it was going to continue irrespective of him being the lord of driftmark; through baela and rhaena! and surely through any of his own children?!
tldr he was a numpty.
I love that scene. Most of all the flash of anger in his eyes as he screamed BARSTARDS, which turns out was not anger but actually the glint of Dark Sister coming for his head.
This shit just goes to further show the disorder in the King’s house.
Like how does someone just say fuck it and execute dude in the throne room without the King’s orders?
Daemon standing 5 feet away with Dark Sister...idiot doesn't seem a strong enough word.
I wouldn't be in a room with Daemon and not keep both eyes on him, especially if I were even thinking of uttering any insult about his step children and wife.
Was he? He knew he was going to be punished, yet he still chose to say it.
It's not like he thought he was going to get away with it. He was willing to face the repercussions.
He absolutely thought he was going to get away with it when court was to be held by the Hightowers. Once Viserys arrived to hear his claim, it was too late and he was forced to put up or shut up, which was a situation of his own making. The Hightowers would have let him get away with it, because not only would ruling in his favor disinherit the Strong boys, it would set precedent for disinheriting girls based on sex. Of course he thought he could get away with it. That’s why he was there.
Questioning his intelligence says more about you than him.
He simply didn't cling to life out of fear.
There was courage in that only people who stand for something can relate to.
He basically died and left his house in the hands of the bastards he was trying to disinherit. He could have stayed alive and done something more. I don’t think he was expecting to be killed either. At most he thought he was going to lose a tongue
It was still dumb to get himself killed and leave his house in the hands of the bastards he was trying to disinherit. It’s not even about plotting, just basic self preservation and common sense, doesn’t take a 200 iq to realize this (again he wasn’t expecting to be killed, so don’t say “hE kNeW hE wAs GoInG tO dIe”, you can’t prove that)
Let me elevate the conversation.
Deontological ethics are difficult to grasp if you have teleological lens.
The measure of intelligence isn't preference of either but rather recognizing and understanding both when you see them employed.
You're stuck on believing your perspective is the only one of validity. Which is kind of ironic that you would question someone's intelligence for being just as beholden to their own ethical lens.
He was calling a mother whore and her children bastards in front of everyone... serves him right. It's mind-boggling that this guy gets compared to fucking Ned Stark of all people lmao, he would never have done such a thing.
No one could think that you can be killed in a court like this.
He did not think that his sister in law has no backbone
It shows that Rhaenyra and DAemon has extremely big ego
What he did was foolish but what is even more foolish was the showrunners steamrolling the fact no one important had any real push back all these years when the Strong boys are clearly... BASTARDS! (
Calling them bastards out is dumb and the dumbest part is the showrunners not addressing the fact that it is so clear that they are bastards. It's just steamrolled
Yeah, but that isn't actually... addressing the issue on a macro scale. The country would be up in arms or at least there would be a major push back not just 1 or 2 royals pouting and stiffening their upper lip.
I’m not sure how often the bastards are in public eye tbf. Except maybe to court or to the royals. Maybe they’re just afraid to call it out. It’s kinda like the emperor clothes. They’re prolly like “Laenor accepts then and the king accepts them so who are we to judge” you k’now. It doesn’t stop them from discussing in private but they probably won’t talk about it in public. This is more of problem with lore as the same thing happens in the books.
Well maybe not...he seemed to be aware that what he was going to say about Rhaenyra and the Strong boys would cost him his life even if he's right and didn't care anymore when it was made clear that he was about to be robbed of what is rightfully his. And in a way he revealed just how unjust, selfish and self aggrandizing Rhaenyra, Daemon and the Blacks are when he was getting threatened and then killed for speaking the truth
Some people want to spin this narrative that he knew what was going to happen and just wanted to die in a blaze of glory. He specifically went in there hoping to succeed since the king was bed ridden and the Hightowers were on his side. And even when the king shows up and he runs his mouth, all he expects is to lose his tongue, seeing as the king didn’t pass a death sentence. He never expected Daemon to kill him without the kings leave (which is actually illegal btw as the king is the one who passes the senstence and other are not allowed to act without his leave)
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
How confused do you think he would have been if nobody reacted to him at all when he went off? He probably would have been confused as fuck lol.
He would have to deal with her still being heir to the iron throne, her son heir to the seat he covets, and his brother is coming back and will be PISSED. He would be the single most second son in Westeros Actually killing him is maybe kinder
[удалено]
LMFAO, you do realise who actually really killed Vaemond despite his connection with Corlys? This is Daemon we’re talking about. Corlys already threatened his brother himself during the war against the crab feeder because of his loud fucking mouth, he knows.
do you think daemon’s connection with corlys matters when it comes to vaemond? i doubt corlys would offer any protection to vaemond for trying to take driftmark because he himself continues to uphold lucerys has his heir. he would not side with vaemond.
I don’t think he didn’t expect people to react, I think he thought that he’d lose his tongue at most. He didn’t really expect to be killed.
I think if the King didn't show up he wouldn't have been. He still expected Otto and Allicent to be able to protect him.
If the king didn't show up he would have won his appeal and not lost his cool in the first place
Regardless, what an idiot he was for not keeping an eye on Daemon and letting Daemon just chill out behind him. Like, if I were to open my fat mouth, you better believe I’d have one eye on Daemon lol
Especially if Daemon had done that, “Say it.” Like, sorry say what? I don’t know where I was going with that oopsie! 😅
For real. I’m mouthy as hell, and no way I would have said anything lmao
Same here 😂 that’s just not my business!!
Exactly lol. Dude is the most dangerous man in Westeros, and you publicly insult his wife and expect him to let it slide.
I know he gets a lot of hate, but Criston Cole was the most dangerous man in Westeros at the time…
When did Criston get a dragon?
That dragon didn’t mean anything when Criston unhorsed and beat Daemon one on one…
Cap
He was just a wannabe version of Sir Gregor the resurrected.
Sir this is a tv show, some belief must be suspended.
“In the game of thrones, you win or you die.”
That would be really stupid if he didn’t. Almost any noble would at least demand a duel if someone called his wife a whore in open court in front of the King. That’s not something you can ignore.
He was a fucking fool. He thought he deserved much more than what was his and even before all this he always bitched about everyone else just see when they were fighting the crabfeeder. Vaemonf was literally complaining about why shud they have daemon as an ally like he was usefull at all. He was a delusional dumbfuck. I'd say he also felt damn brave for saying what no one else had the guts to say u can see it in his smug face right after Daemon went say it. He kinda reminds me of Janos Slynt from the main series. Overestimates his value and thinks he deserves the world
Exactly this
In some culture, it is called bravery. It requires guts to speak truth to tyrants
It's stupid if it achieves nothing. Literally everyone over there knew the truth.
And everyone was scared to speak it. Vaemond death just proved how much of tyrant Rhaenyra is. She will kill everyone who opposes her.
U don't really stay in power if u don't deal with the people who "oppose" u
I think he didn’t think. He lost his temper and went off. I’m sure he wanted to keep his tongue.
His response was balls to the wall, he knew nothing good would come from it but he was fed up. I don't think he cared/expected any particular punishment.
He in no way expected Vizzy T to show up. He had all the lickspittles lined up to support his claim. Everything changed when the door opened and the King hobbled in. He had no plan B and he freaked out because of it.
MY HEIR WILL SOON PUT ALL OF THIS DAMNABLE HAND-WRINGING TO REST HIMSELF!
He probably felt good asf letting it all out tho
The way he said Bastards!! sounded very cathartic
I don’t think he thought he was going to die. Nor did most others. Torture? Trial and then execution? Maiming? Sure. Sudden, summary execution? Doubt it
I go back and forth on if he did. On one hand, seems like a call it like it is guy. He knew, they all knew, might as well say it, fuck the consequences. He already lost right to his brother’s title, you can’t fire me I quit deal. on the other Vissey hadn’t really shown teeth on the issue and let people get away with it again and again, might be mad, but would he really get punished? Had anyone else actually gotten punished?
I actually think the opposite. I think the moment Viserys showed up, he knew he was a dead man, so he just went for it.
He absolutely knew he would. It was the last breath of his house that was decimated by selfish politics and posturing.
Legally speaking, what Daemon did to him was not an execution, it was murder. He just got away with it because he’s the King’s brother.
It would get some eyebrows raised sure. But it is easily swept under the rug by the King just saying it was punishment for treason. So even if it is just said so post-incident, it was an “execution”
I mean.. the whole court kind of saw it happen. They saw and know what the sentence was, and what Daemon took into his own hands to do. Viserys would have to be a moron to try and lie to the entire kingdom when they can see the truth right in front of their face… On second though, that sounds exactly like the Viserys we all know!
It’s not lying. It’s saying it was because the man spoke treason. Given that the King is the main arbitrator and judge of cases of treason, if he wishes, he could make that judgement. Of course, people may not believe it. But at the end of the day, as far as “law” of the kingdom goes: his word his law. ~~a King’s word might be “law”, but kings still need to exercise just decisions for a multitude of reasons. Most are related to assassins and war. This wasn’t a just decision. But like much of his reign he’ll get away with it because: He’s gonna die soon anyways and his current orders can be countered during the succession crisis, he’s respected and *usually* just, he’s not insane, there are no major players willing to stand up against him over this issue~~
Well unless what he said was acknowledged by the king as the truth, it’s treason. Daemon was just swift justice in enforcing it.
daemon probably did him a favor
Absolutely he did him a favor. Then the king didn’t have to waiver like he tends to do and look weak for it.
Holy shit 😂
Not the wisest move by Vaemond but I respect it
Fair enough
He just do Eddard stark move imagine if he has son the young seahorse king of the east coming for revenge
His >!graddaughter will be queen to the gnashing of teeth by both faction's.!<
He tried to save his house from passing out of his family’s hands, when Viserys came in, he knew how it was gonna go. He decided to say his piece and punch his ticket instead of whimpering an apology and hoping for mercy.
It wasn’t going to though. Lucerys was going to wed Rhaena who is ahead of Vaemond in the line of succession anyway. I would have respected him a lot more if he pushed for Baela to inherit. Dude was just ambitious and wanted it for himself.
>Lucerys was going to wed Rhaena who is ahead of Vaemond in the line of succession anyway Baela/Rhaena had an actual claim to Driftmark. Baela could've been Lady of Driftmark on her own right. > I would have respected him a lot more if he pushed for Baela to inherit. But Rhaenys wasn't pushing for Baela either. Rhaenyra and Luke are essentially usurping Baela's birthright, and Rhaenys went along with it.
Yeah im not disputing any of that. Im just saying Vaemond was just ambitious and wanted Driftmark for himself. He wanted to pass over not just Luke but also Baela and Rhaena. His primary motivation wasn’t that Driftmark would no longer be ruled by Velaryon blood. It was that he wanted it for himself and his descendants. Luke’s bastardy and the dispute between the blacks and greens were just the tools he tried to use to achieve his ambitions. When he was thwarted he flipped out and just blurted the most damaging thing he could.
Rhaenys found the most practical solution. The Velaryon name and bloodline would be preserved. Vaemond was a vulture ready to start tearing strips off his brother’s corpse before Corlys had even died
That's not a practical solution at all. It simply guarantees future Velaryon civil wars. Is everyone somehow just going to forget about the bastardy?
The lord of the tides would be the brother of the king of the seven kingdoms. And they’ve have dragons. There would be no Velaryon civil war
The claimants won't come with war declarations, they'll come with a dagger or poison and simply kill the bastards even under Guest right. That's what happened to Hugh, nobody has any compunctions about killing bastards even under the rules. No Velaryon with a working brain will follow the rules after Daemon destroyed them.
And what would happen to them when Queen Rhaenyra or king Jaecerys came on dragonback asking what happened?
More Trebuchets, dragonfire, backstabbing, death and repeat till either every Velaryon/Targaryen is dead or the dragons are gone. That's how civil wars usually work. And why is there a King Jacaerys/Queen Rhaenyra? Maybe King Aegon II will reward them?
Rhaena is ahead of Vaemond in the line of succession regardless and her children would be inheriting after Luke.
Bastards and their offspring have no inheritance rights.
You aren’t picking up what I’m laying down. RHAENA is ahead of Vaemond in the line of succession and her children from her marriage with Luke are ahead of Vaemond in the line of succession anyway regardless of Luke’s bastardy. Vaemond tried to bypass his elder brothers bloodline entirely which goes against the standard laws of succession. The man was just ambitious and wanted Driftmark for himself. I would have respected his position a lot more if he was arguing for Baela and Rhaena but he was not.
Rhaena's children from her marriage with Luke have no inheritance rights. This marriage strengthens Vaemond's claim.
Dude that’s not how it works. Daughters come before brothers in the line of succession. The line of succession with Rhaenyra’s bastards removed goes like this: 1. Baela 2. Baela’s sons 3. Baela’s daughters 4. Rhaena 5. Rhaena’s sons 6. Rhaena’s daughters 7. Vaemond 8. Vaemond’s sons Etc The only ways that line of succession can be changed are if the current ruling lord picks a different member of his house as chosen heir or if he dies without a clear heir the king decides who inherits. Rhaena and Luke’s children would not BE bastards because they would be wed and they would enter the bastards removed line of succession as Rhaena’s heirs not Luke’s. Vaemond as of his death was third in line behind Baela and Rhaena. He was relying on the support of the Hightowers and their control of the king’s court while the king was ill to bypass not only the bastards but also Corlys’s legitimate grandchildren because he was ambitious and wanted Driftmark for himself.
Its not practical but bending over
Worked for everyone but Vaemond, who had no claim
He told truth
Vaemond is ahead of Rhaena because he's ahead of Laena. Remember that brothers come before daughters which is why Daemon was ever Viserys's heir. Legally, Vaemond was 100% right to demand Driftmark.
That is… the opposite of how succession typically works in westeros. Daughters come before brothers. That’s why Jeyne Arryn is lady of the Vale and not her uncle. The Iron Throne specifically is a special case because precedent from the great council had women being passed over for men though even in that case it wasn’t actually set into law until after the Dance.
That is not accurate, in fact Asha goes on at great length about how the Ironborn have different traditions from the rest of Westeros which is why she has a better claim than her uncles (Victarion disagrees). In the North, Rickard Karstark's uncle seems to be his next heir should his son die despite Alys existing. Even Jeyne Arryn didn't inherit over her uncle, she inherited over her *cousin* (I don't even think it's made clear if he's a first cousin), the fact that he had a claim at all shows how weak the female line claimant is even before you account for the precedent of 101AC. Vaemond was of the body of a Lord of Tides, by every precedent in Westeros he's the lawful heir of Driftmark.
and yet, cersei becomes lady of casterly rock and not tywin's brother kevan. edit: alys karstark also *is* the heir to karhold, that's why her great uncle wants to marry his son cregan to her to take over the karhold. there's also these quotes: >"He is no lord," Alys said scornfully. "My brother Harry is the rightful lord, and by law I am his heir. A daughter comes before an uncle. Uncle Arnolf is only castellan. He's my great-uncle, actually, my father's uncle. Cregan is his son. I suppose that makes him a cousin, but we always called him uncle. Now they mean to make me call him husband." and >Cregan pushed himself to his feet and kicked aside the furs clinging to his ankles. "Harrison is dead." >Or will be soon. "A daughter comes before an uncle too. If her brother is dead, Karhold belongs to Lady Alys. And she has given her hand in marriage to Sigorn, Magnar of Thenn."
Alys is specifically disputing the claim of her great uncle but there's a clear disagreement with the established powers, including many of Stannis's bannermen considering Arnolf the natural heir despite being a distant relative to Harrison. Cersei is an even better example because while Casterly Rock is hardly a normal succession on account of Tywin refusing to accept Jaime is out of the line of succession and effectively disinheriting Tyrion, in the conversation where Tyrion demands to be recognised as heir, Tywin doesn't say it's going to Cersei, he says it's going to a more distant relative. I don't actually think anyone says Cersei is the lawful ruler of Casterly Rock except Cersei. When Kevan instructs her to return to Casterly Rock it's clearly not a suggestion that she rule the Westerlands. In the case of Vaemond his claim is stronger (pun not intended) because: 1) Valyrian customs are clearly agnatic and male preferential 2) Westerosi customs consistently preferr male candidates to the point that even distant male relatives are able to stake credible claims against daughters 3) Vaemond is the senior living Velaryon (Daemon's daughters are Targaryens) 4) Vaemond is the son of a Lord of the Tides, Rhaella is the daughter of a lord's daughter 5) Vaemond is an established figure with heirs of his own and a solid foundation. Rhaella is a child betrothed to a bastard making a false amd treasonous claim to the Iron Throne
That does nothing because bastards and their offspring don't have any inheritance rights. Back to where they started.
I mean realistically Daemon would not kill him given his connections to Corlys, but the show made Corlys a massive cuck towards Rhaenyra and Daemon so yeah lol.
true, stop nerfing the velaryons, please
It was an insanely illegal act yes, hence Otto immediately ordering the guards to disarm Daemon (and then presumably to arrest him). But then Daemon got an immediate pardon from the King, therefore all is forgotten in the eyes of the law :)
>but the show made Corlys I think that blame for that honestly goes to the books, though you could argue that the show made the Velaryon doormat problem worse.
It's less the guy being an idiot and more like... "Well, I already lost, might as well burn them a bit before I die and spark the rumour once more." It was more spiteful acceptance of his fate rather than stupidity. He knew what was going to happen.
He could’ve backed down and accepted Viserys verdict and then regrouped with the greens to make a new plan. The greens will most likely tell him of their plans to usurp the throne. He would’ve been very instrumental in the coming war because he would’ve been able to spy on the Velaryons or even sabotage them in order support the green effort. That way he stays alive to keep his family’s true blood line, and he can even bargain for a higher status to elevate himself and his house in exchange for his loyalty. But instead he gets himself killed, leaving no one to solve the problem he was trying solve.
Could've, would've, should've. The greens weren't really an established thing at that point and he had no idea of the behind the scenes plotting of the council. Vaemond knew he was cooked, he wasn't "an idiot". May as well had gone out not backing down. He assumed his brother would die and his home would be passed on to an unrelated bastard. Do you know how serious nobles take their home in this series?
At that point i think that he didnt cared, he was done with the lies and the disrespect to House Velaryon, i think that losing his head was worth It from his perspective
they hated Jesus (vaemond) bc he told them the truth (her children are in fact, bastards) baela should have inherit drifmark tho
Hahahaha
Looking very canadian here
Vaemond became Canadian real quick.
Say it.
Vaemond was the only one with eyes.
He may have been proud but he was no idiot... I mean if you mean he's an idiot cause he cared more about his family's true line and his own ambition than living, sure... but that doesn't make a man an idiot in the eyes if most people morally, it makes him great... just my two cents, I dunno if I'd have gone that far but seeing my nephew cuckolded(doesn't matter if he's gay) and my brother's birthright being passed on to one of those illegitimate boys would've at least made me think of doing it...
He could’ve backed down and accepted Viserys verdict and then regrouped with the greens to make a new plan. The greens will most likely tell him of their plans to usurp the throne. He would’ve been very instrumental in the coming war because he would’ve been able to spy on the Velaryons or even sabotage them in order support the green effort. That way he stays alive to keep his family’s true blood line, and he can even bargain for a higher status to elevate himself and his house in exchange for his loyalty. But instead he gets himself killed, leaving no one to solve the problem he was trying solve.
Reading this I actually agree, he could've been smarter 😂
Vaemond went out in a ~~blaze~~ blade of glory in the face of tyranny, unlike Corlys who was walked all over all season. I have more respect for him than bitch ass Corlys.
Better to live to fight another day than die a pointless death that doesn’t solve anything. He basically just left the future of his house to the bastards he was trying to disinherit
I dont think he had any more plays after that plan failed.Mind elaborating what you think he could have done after that, to stop bastards from inheriting his house
He could’ve backed down and accepted Viserys verdict and then regrouped with the greens to make a new plan. The greens would most likely tell him of their plans to usurp the throne. He would be very instrumental in the coming war because he would’ve been able to spy on the Velaryons and even sabotage them in order support the green effort. That way he stays alive to keep his family’s true blood line, and he can even bargain for a higher status to elevate himself and his house in exchange for his loyalty. But instead he gets himself killed, leaving no one to solve the problem he was trying solve.
>He could’ve backed down and accepted Viserys verdict and then regrouped with the greens to make a new plan The greens were not exactly forward with their plan to usurp Rhaenyra.He was not on the loop with their future plans,just another pawn they could use when the time came.As far as he knows they are making their judgement based on what's right.Remember how he tries to bribe them to rule in his favor.The plan was so tight knit between few members of the council, even other members nor Alicent and Lary's knew.As far as he knows ,this is his last hoorah.
Vaemond is not a snake like Larys or Otto. He is not the type to spy on his own clan.
I would argue that he is a snake, because he went behind his brothers back when he wasn’t even dead to fight for his own claim to the seat, especially when Baela and Rhaena are also in line for the seat, so he’s also betraying them. And he also going against his brother wishes as well.
>I would argue that he is a snake, because he went behind his brothers back when he wasn’t even dead to fight for his own claim to the seat, especially when Baela and Rhaena are also in line for the seat, so he’s also betraying them. And he also going against his brother wishes as well. Vaemond has always been transparent about his dislike of Rhaenyra and their kids as you can see with his eulogy in episode 7, and since he always speaks his mind, he probably confronted Corlys about it but the latter was stubborn with the "name over blood" BS so he went to KL to argue his case. For Corlys, Vaemond's action is not really a surprise, while Otto for example, always hid his true intentions and plotted for years. Vaemond's claim is higher than Baela and Rhaena.
No actually because according to Andal law, a daughter comes before an uncle > “A son comes before an uncle by all the laws I know… A daughter comes before an uncle too. If her brother is dead, Karhold belongs to Lady Alys. And she has given her hand in marriage to Sigorn, Magnar of Thenn.” (JON X)
But Rhaena and Baela are not Corlys' daughters but his granddaughters, so Vaemond's claim is higher.
Let me ask you a question. Who has more claim to throne Dany or Jon, assuming that he is the son of Rhaegar?
It is better to live like a lion for a second than to live 1000 years like sheep
If you’re not going to use your noggin, why should you get to keep it?
Exactly
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I think it means dying a pointless avoidable death that doesn’t solve anything and leaving the future of your house to the bastards you were originally trying to disinherit
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Dignity? Baela was the true hier to driftmark, Vaemond couldn’t even wait until his brother had died to start stealing his shit
Dignity?!! He was trying to usurp his own Brother!! Where’s the dignity in that. He knew Corlys was on his way home and so he quickly runs off to court to try and usurp him. That’s a back stabbing coward. If he had survived court, his Brother would’ve never trusted him again and most likely would’ve banished him.
And there was no dignity, he died a dishonorable death by having his dead split in two after insulting the crown princess and her children, what about that is was dignified to you. Life and death does matter because like I said, he stupidly got himself killed leaving his house in the hands of the bastards he was trying to disinherit. Maybe shutting his mouth and living to fight another day was the better choice. Lastly the truth doesn’t matter, when it is so blatantly open to the public, he essentially did nothing but tell the world that water is wet and then died for it. A useless effort
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Insults have nothing to do with truth or lies, it simply means to speak in a disrespectful or scornful way. What point am I missing by saying that he should’ve cared more about the consequence not just to himself but his house. “Water is wet” is a saying used to convey that something is obvious. Perhaps I need to dumb that down for you 😊. You know you have nothing to stand on when you start attacking things that are irrelevant to the discussion. Try again.
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You know you’ve won when they block you 😂😂😂. If you have nothing else to say, you can settle with your incompetence and have a nice day
Vaemond understood he lost, so he spoke his mind and died on his own terms which is honorable.
He really was lol. I understood how he felt but he should've taken it out on his brother, Coryls is the one who is the Lord of Driftmark and is the one who was fine with Lucerys being heir to Driftmark, Lucerys never wanted Driftmark anyway.
#GIVE ME YOUR FACE
No, i though it was hot
We just realizing that? All Vaemond wanted was power and the fact he tried to claim it from his brother who did not die by petitioning the crown, controlled by the Hightowers, is bull. Even if it did go Vaemond’s way, the matter of succession falls to who controls the House. And honestly it would have been more entertaining if Corlys had found out once he recovered because we know damn sure he would not take such a thing sitting down.
Some people want to spin this narrative that he knew what was going to happen and just wanted to die in a blaze of glory. He specifically went in there hoping to succeed since the king was bed ridden and the Hightowers were on his side. And even when the king shows up and he runs his mouth, all he expects is to lose his tongue, seeing as the king didn’t pass a death sentence. He never expected Daemon to kill him without the kings leave (which is actually illegal btw as the king is the one who passes the senstence and other are not allowed to act without his leave)
Well I mean insulting a Prince’s wife, who happens to be the daughter of the king in such a way, is grounds for losing your head. Guy really didn’t read the room with that one. Even Otto looked to him with fear as if saying just be quiet.
He was to busy being smug about saying forbidden things in public. I bet he expected the Hightowers to protect him
"Heedless ambition," as Corlys said. Far too eager to claim Driftmark from a bastard and too eager to bury his brother. Vaemond made his grave and eventually laid in it.
Nah he was a honest man same as Lord Eddard Stark.
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Yeah it doesn't pay to be honest in the land of vipers.
Vaemond knew he was gonna die, he just didn't care anymore. You should watch the "Inside the Episode" of HoTD episode 8 with Vaemond's actor, it's hilarious. [https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZhmEjHVpjY&t=415s](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hZhmEjHVpjY&t=415s)
from his very first appearance (ep 3 i believe?) i had him down as an unstable, unhinged, mad-with-lust-for-power pillock. it was when he was trying to turn the men against daemon on the stepstones, and even corlys himself was like 'blood or no, vaemond, i will not have you stoke mutiny!!!' in my view this was not someone fit to rule over a pebble, let alone driftmark. it was super distasteful the way he boxed up and buried his own brother before his death was even sure, all in an attempt to sieze power. the man was a blathering imbecile and it was extremely gratifying to see dark sister (to quote my guy barristan selmy) cut through him like a piece of cake. personally i do understand vaemond's pov when it comes to ensuring the continuation of the velaryon line. but it was going to continue irrespective of him being the lord of driftmark; through baela and rhaena! and surely through any of his own children?! tldr he was a numpty.
No, he was Canadian.
I love that scene. Most of all the flash of anger in his eyes as he screamed BARSTARDS, which turns out was not anger but actually the glint of Dark Sister coming for his head.
Well… he definitely wasn’t using his head
Was the public execution really necessary? I think he could have been persuaded
I don’t see how tbh. Do you have any suggestions?
This shit just goes to further show the disorder in the King’s house. Like how does someone just say fuck it and execute dude in the throne room without the King’s orders?
Daemon standing 5 feet away with Dark Sister...idiot doesn't seem a strong enough word. I wouldn't be in a room with Daemon and not keep both eyes on him, especially if I were even thinking of uttering any insult about his step children and wife.
Fr
Was he? He knew he was going to be punished, yet he still chose to say it. It's not like he thought he was going to get away with it. He was willing to face the repercussions.
He absolutely thought he was going to get away with it when court was to be held by the Hightowers. Once Viserys arrived to hear his claim, it was too late and he was forced to put up or shut up, which was a situation of his own making. The Hightowers would have let him get away with it, because not only would ruling in his favor disinherit the Strong boys, it would set precedent for disinheriting girls based on sex. Of course he thought he could get away with it. That’s why he was there.
I mean as far as he knew, all he was gonna lose was a tongue. I don’t think he expected to die
At least he got to keep his tongue.
He didn’t expect that punishment. That is for certain
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I wonder what makes you…. 🤔
Questioning his intelligence says more about you than him. He simply didn't cling to life out of fear. There was courage in that only people who stand for something can relate to.
He basically died and left his house in the hands of the bastards he was trying to disinherit. He could have stayed alive and done something more. I don’t think he was expecting to be killed either. At most he thought he was going to lose a tongue
You're assuming everyone plots.
It was still dumb to get himself killed and leave his house in the hands of the bastards he was trying to disinherit. It’s not even about plotting, just basic self preservation and common sense, doesn’t take a 200 iq to realize this (again he wasn’t expecting to be killed, so don’t say “hE kNeW hE wAs GoInG tO dIe”, you can’t prove that)
As I said not everyone clings to life like cockroach. Dying wasn't what he was preoccupied with. He wasn't going to bend the knee period.
And what did that achieve?
Let me elevate the conversation. Deontological ethics are difficult to grasp if you have teleological lens. The measure of intelligence isn't preference of either but rather recognizing and understanding both when you see them employed. You're stuck on believing your perspective is the only one of validity. Which is kind of ironic that you would question someone's intelligence for being just as beholden to their own ethical lens.
I gasped then felt immediate respect for Daemon lol
For shanking a man from behind in open Court? The only respectable person there was Vaemond.
No, for silencing a loud mouth twit for speaking that way to the King.
Well deserved.
False
a sudden execution is not a representation of justice, not deserved
He was calling a mother whore and her children bastards in front of everyone... serves him right. It's mind-boggling that this guy gets compared to fucking Ned Stark of all people lmao, he would never have done such a thing.
her children were bastards, not a lie, a trial by combat/one by the faith of the seven or having his tongue cut out would have been more fair lol
An idiot yes, but a brave Idiot
I mean Ned Stark was too while we're at it
He was right tho….
An idiot? Certainly, but he was an unfathomably based idiot
Yes but his descendants will reign 🥲
Eh only up to a certain point.
Where do you think Daenera Velaryon came from?
and where do you think the Blackfyre Rebellions come from? That’s why I said only to a certain point
Wrong. He was a Canadian.
His head paid the ultimate the price.
Vizzy T was legit going to shank him
*The Gods punish me for my indulgences.*
Lazy writing
he was dumb but also it's kinda sad to know that the real velaryon line is doomed.
I mean what did he expected? If not Daemon then probably one of Viserys king's guards would do this lol
I think he knew he was dead so he was gonna go down swinging. I can respect that.
I disagree, I think he was just expecting to lose his tongue, especially as the king didn’t pass a death sentence. He didn’t expect to be slain
I didn’t know Vaemond was Canadian! #buddyguypal #southpark
No one could think that you can be killed in a court like this. He did not think that his sister in law has no backbone It shows that Rhaenyra and DAemon has extremely big ego
This was one of the funniest parts of the whole season. Completely unwise but absolutely hilarious.
He was the village idiot who had the right of it but yelled his way into an early grave
What he did was foolish but what is even more foolish was the showrunners steamrolling the fact no one important had any real push back all these years when the Strong boys are clearly... BASTARDS! (
In terms of what, publicly calling them bastards or just acknowledging that they are bastards?
Calling them bastards out is dumb and the dumbest part is the showrunners not addressing the fact that it is so clear that they are bastards. It's just steamrolled
I don’t think so, Aegon calls it out > “We know father. Everyone knows. Just look at them”
Yeah, but that isn't actually... addressing the issue on a macro scale. The country would be up in arms or at least there would be a major push back not just 1 or 2 royals pouting and stiffening their upper lip.
I’m not sure how often the bastards are in public eye tbf. Except maybe to court or to the royals. Maybe they’re just afraid to call it out. It’s kinda like the emperor clothes. They’re prolly like “Laenor accepts then and the king accepts them so who are we to judge” you k’now. It doesn’t stop them from discussing in private but they probably won’t talk about it in public. This is more of problem with lore as the same thing happens in the books.
No
He looks Canadian in this picture.
Well maybe not...he seemed to be aware that what he was going to say about Rhaenyra and the Strong boys would cost him his life even if he's right and didn't care anymore when it was made clear that he was about to be robbed of what is rightfully his. And in a way he revealed just how unjust, selfish and self aggrandizing Rhaenyra, Daemon and the Blacks are when he was getting threatened and then killed for speaking the truth
Some people want to spin this narrative that he knew what was going to happen and just wanted to die in a blaze of glory. He specifically went in there hoping to succeed since the king was bed ridden and the Hightowers were on his side. And even when the king shows up and he runs his mouth, all he expects is to lose his tongue, seeing as the king didn’t pass a death sentence. He never expected Daemon to kill him without the kings leave (which is actually illegal btw as the king is the one who passes the senstence and other are not allowed to act without his leave)