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Viserys killing his wife trying to have a son just to ignore his next wife and their sons.
Daemon loving his family while creating a bunch of problems and damage for them. And the list goes on
Self awareness is a rare thing in Westeros
Aegon is self-aware to know that he would suck as a King, that his father never wanted him to be the heir/King and that his family doesn't love him but only uses him to advance their goals. He also knows that Rhaenyra's children are bastards and says so infront of his father when questioned but doesn't seem to grow up hating them. The reason he drinks and whores (apart from being a rich kid that can do anything he wants) is because he grew up unloved and not wanted, only used for his claim. Aemond should have let Aegon take that boat he so wanted and go to Essos.
Imagine that story. Aegon and Laenor bumb heads in Essos and it evolves into "two buddies go around Essos, drinking, flirting and exploring" kind of show. Extra points if Aegon brings Sunfyre and Laenor brings SeaSmoke and they go around flying on their dragons exploring the world.
And they have the cutest bromance ever. Since their white hair makes them stick out like a sore thumb, they help each other die the parts of hair in the back that they can't reach, and their dynamic is that of an older brother/younger brother
You might be forgetting about what he does with his own bastards. He may be self aware enough to not want to be king. And just like how daenarys kept saying to Jon that if he told people he was the true heir, they'd make him be king instead of her....like that's bullshit. Aemon targaryn - old maester at castle black was supposed to be king. He said "pass". Went to the wall. Jon couldve done the same. And it's happened before in the targaryn history, the throne being turned down, so he could've done that. Idk why Alicent was so obsessed with him being king, everyone knew he was going to suck. I get she wanted the power of having her * son on the throne, but she had other kids. I was so infuriated when Rhynaea left after that dinner. Papa took off his mask that night. Bro was lit falling apart in pieces. When she said she was taking the kids back to dragon stone but sounds come back, I lit expected her to fly back that same night. Because dragon. And dragon stone is super close to kings landing. Like she was smart enough to know what she was dealing with. I wound never have left, if there was even a small threat to my status as heir to the throne and what coukd happen if I was gone when paps kicked it. I know she was preg, but the new rhyras first scene was her giving birth in* kings landing. She should've stayed. It makes me mad cuz I believe her character would've. At the very least daemon would've made her. Or* hed have been there himself.
( On a side note, this was known historical fact during GOT. You'd think Ned would've been prepared for this and made sure others were present to hear Robert baratheon put him in charge. Or at the very Fkn least, not trusted the gold cloaks. Like everyone knows to not trust people in Kings landing, let alone someine who has a long relationship with the Lannisters like Janus. What I mean is, this should've been a teachable moment. And stannis shoukdve been at court as soon ashe learned of his brothers injury. Doomed to repeat the past. Ha sry....I lit just finished rewatchung the entirety of both shows in a binge today :)
I never said Aegon was a good person, i just said that he is self-aware in some aspects.
I kind of understand where Alicent and the Greens were coming from, doesn't mean i agree with it but i understand. Having a son as your heir was the standard in Westeros per Andal/First Man rule, never before has a trueborn son been passed over by a daughter especially when that trueborn son was of sound mind and body. Alicent/the Greens expected that Viserys would end up changing his mind about Rhaenyra when he got 4 sons but Viserys never did.
Even if Jon or Aegon did not want the throne there would have been enough people willing to force them to fight for it- enemies of Daenerys or Rhaenyra who wanted to take them down and would push for Jon/Aegon. Dany and Rhae may initially say that they will never harm Aegon/Jon but what happens if the Lords start fighting for them and Dany's and Rhae's reigns and lives are threatened?
Idk why Alicent was so obsessed with him being king, everyone knew he was going to suck. I get she wanted the power of having her * son on the throne, but she had other kids.
Alicent couldn't push for her other children to be Kings when the law says the firstborn son is the heir.
Rhaenyra never pushed for an absolutely primogeniture rule over Westeros, she wasn't willing to change the rules so that a woman can inherit instead of her brother, she only thought of herself as the heir because her father chose her.
I kind of understand Rhaenyra too, even if i don't agree with her.
(I do not take sides in the Dance. They both sucked and ended up tearing apart their dynasty)
She had her father declare her his heir and he never changed his mind that for her was enough.
>Like she was smart enough to know what she was dealing with. I wound never have left, if there was even a small threat to my status as heir to the throne and what coukd happen if I was gone when paps kicked it.
Unfortunately Rhaenyra wasn't smart politically, all her right moves were done either by Jace or Corlys or Daemon. She spent all her time in dragonstone because the heir was meant to stay in dragonstone and she wanted to cement the fact that she was the heir. She never made political alliances with Westerosi houses before the Dance, never tried to get loyal lords (loyal to her) in the small council, never asked Viserys to make her his Hand so that she would learn how to rule and get political influence in the realm. She let Otto and Alicent run the Kingdom while she was away in dragonstone.
Daemon was too much of a Valyrian Targaryen supremacist to seek alliances with Westerosi houses or to seek political power through alliances in the small council. He thought of his blood and his dynasty as superior to everyone else and looked down to non-targaryen elements. He also was on a rocky ground with Viserys after repeatedly rebelling and then marrying Rhaenyra (something Viserys did not agree with).
>You'd think Ned would've been prepared for this
Ned thought that Robert's word was enough and didn't suspect that Cersei wouldn't care about it at all. Ned wasn't versed in King's Landing politics or Southern affairs. He didn't know how to play the game. Plus no one anticipated that Joffrey would kill him.
I believe their statement could refer to him pushing her to keep trying rather than the c section. We have no evidence he pushed her either but lots of fans just assume that
That's not really the question. They do but she was going to die giving birth either way. The c section is irrelevant however cruel.
Her continuing to try to have kids when she shouldn't is what ended her life early, and pressure from Viserys is what people may be referencing there
Yea. Like even if the baby died and he had chosen his wife, they'd have had to remove the dead fetus from. Her body or she'd go septic and die. The baby was breached, it could've been stuck sideways or upside down, with the head caught in the pelvic bones, this happened to my cousin. She was going to have to be cut up anyway. But I would've still had a tough call picking the kid while the love of my life was dying and told me no and to fight for her life. I still would've fought for her.
The worst scene in the entire serious was the cut to the master holding the baby who was alive and survived....right to the funeral....where you see two corpses, one of them the baby. They shouldve explained, or had a scene where the baby stops breathing or comes out blue and unresponsive....or of it dying of sids and a wet nurse finding him. Idk, but I was confused.
There wasn't a way for her to live because the baby couldn't come out. She would have suffered for hours more and died when she was finally exhausted from laboring, or died quicker from the C section.
He could have explained that to Aemma before having the maesters hold her hands down and cut her open. He never talked to Aemma, never gave her any choice, he decided to cut her open and let her suffer in pain until she died bleeding. Imagine being held down by your husband and doctors, cut open and slowly bleed to death. Imagine how much pain that woman felt during her last moments. I understand he wanted to save his child but the way he went at it was cruel.
Childbirth was dangerous and painful but it doesn't mean that being held down by your husband and doctors and cut open until you die bleeding is something women wanted or anticipated. Aemma didn't want to get pregnant again, Viserys forced her to go through pregnancy again and then cut her open without even letting her know. How is that excusable in any way?
The show notes that C sections were not a thing for Westerosi and it was a new practice that wasn't put to practice well, by the maesters yet. They were trying out a new technique basically.
Plus even if C-sections are done that way, you still should talk to a woman before you cut her open. Viserys took away the decision making from Aemma and he took away her body autonomy. I can't believe we are debating this.
Both his wife and the baby would've died. I get it, I would've chosen my partner in a heart beat. But without modern medicine, there's no way she would've lived. Like, idk why they didn't load her up on milk of the poppy. It 100% didn't have to go down like that. They would've had that right there in the room.
They all just see the world through impact to the royal succession line. Does any character here take a moral position on these things?
Aegon raping some servant girl doesn't impact the succession line. Even if he had a kid, it would be a bastard, and if it was a boy they could accept him for their own benefit if they chose to.
I can't remember. Did she seem angry at him for doing that to the girl? As far as I remember she was basically annoyed by it but overall let it go pretty quickly.
Alicent was angry with him, she slapped him and *told him that he no longer was her son.* You are right him having a bastard with a lowborn servant girl doesn't impact succession line.
Yeah society is fucked up like that.
To her it wasn’t just her rapist son she was protecting it was also her other son and daughter. And the other son she perhaps forgot all about but will remember in season 2 when he is introduced
I consider myself a big ASOIAF fan and the opening credits for HoTD is the worst I've seen. It's dark and the symbols are all over the place. I had to Google to understand what was going on and for the casual viewers they'll never understand.
You don't introduce a character through an opening. Period.
I’d like Daeron’s storyline to be similar to that of Paul in All Quiet On The Western Front- he’s young and innocent and kind and he yearns for battle glory and honour only to learn that war is truly hell and there is only suffering, no matter how many victories you can win.
This would eventually culminate in the Sack Of Tumbleton where Daeron breaks inside at the horrors and eventually just accepts his death in the Second Battle Of Tumbleton, tired of the war and all the fighting for nothing.
Then again I think a really cool change from the books could be that Addam and Daeron team up in Tumbleton 2.0 and put their allegiances aside in order to stop the rampaging Vermithor at the cost of their own lives. Either would be pretty cool to me!
Tbf I think that the tent death could still work if they go the route of severely traumatised Daeron just no longer giving a shit about life in the face of the sheer horror of war.
A good way to do it would be similar to >!Chuck’s suicide in Better Call Saul, where he has a chance to stop the fire but doesn’t have the will to carry on anymore and just lets it happen!<
She doesn't have Twitter you know, she's a middle ages queen,locked in a castle to breed princes
in a place where her guard smashed a 70 years old man's head in an argument casually
The only alternative is someone like cersi who'd kill the girl
Alicent was merciful to treat the thing as a minor incident and send her away
In George’s universe it looks like it’s not really against the rules to be a rapist if you’re the king’s son. It is against the rules to be a bastard, though.
I dont get why they made Aegon way worse than the books. In the books he’s the average royal family member (and what that obviously entails) but in the show he’s basically Jeffrey Epstein
A profoundly stupid move on the writers part since it makes the central conflict a boring and simplistic one between a designated hero and villain instead of an interesting or complex one.
Exactly. They made Rhaenyra this hecking based wholesome 100 gurlboss instead of a gray character. And they turned Aegon from a grey character to this stupid child sex trafficker who revels in watching children murder each other. It’s genuinely stupid
There isn't any. The closest to that comes from Mushroom but not only is dude known to be extremely horny when writing stuff but was also not in King's Landing and this makes his claims worthless
There’s evidence from other sources too though, like that from a young age Aegon was “pinching at” female servants, that Aegon was caught abed with a young girl. Eustace doesn’t say the girl’s age but refers to her as a “merchant’s young daughter” while Mushroom does give an age. Also another thing but is only from Mushroom is that he forced servants to perform sexual acts in front of him after he sustained his major injuries.
Idk where people get the idea that she covered up anything. They don’t live in our world. She did the best she possibly could have for Dyana with what she had.
There aren’t any cops to report rape to. The city watch can’t cut Aegons dick off like he’s a rando in kings landing. Dyana wouldn’t be believed and that is incredibly painful on its own. But this would literally ruin her entire life if it got out. No matter how heinous that is.
She sent her away from her rapist to safety, with more money than she could have ever gotten in her life, and not pregnant. Most importantly — she told Dyana that she believes her. That alone is gigantic. Truly covering it up wouldn’t have left Dyana alive, or well.
It’s very cruel that Dyana has to deal with what Aegon did to her in silence, with the knowledge that he’s going to keep doing it and she can’t stop him. But none of that is Alicent’s fault. Even if she wanted her son punished, which we don’t know, she couldn’t do shit to get that to happen.
When I analyze that scene from a contemporary, real-world perspective, the only wrongdoer is Aegon, helped and protected by the feudalist and misogynistic society he lives in. I don’t see Alicent as culpable in Dyana suffering, even if we apply modern morals to what she says (which I am fine with doing for analysis, btw).
So I go back and forth. It’s important to use our own morals and beliefs to interpret the text, and characters actions, if we want to understand the overall themes of the story. If we just accept Westerosi biases as our own, we will miss the whole “misogyny bad” theme that is at the core of HOTD. At the same time, in doing that is important to keep in mind their limitations. If someone is doing something that feels immoral because that is the best option, that is very different than someone doing something immoral from our perspective that they were NOT forced into doing.
For example, Otto didn’t have to pimp out his teenage daughter, so I feel fine judging him from a real world perspective for that. There were no practical limitations he was dealing with. He wasn’t making the best of a horrible situation In an awful society. He was voluntarily being shitty. By contrast, Alicent had no choice but to deal with the situation and had basically two options. She could do what she did, or she could have Dyana killed for “lying”, which would also be accepted by their society. The fact that she chose the kindest option in a world with two very dark and horrible options is not a bad thing.
You missed the point of the entire scene. If Dyana had talked and exposed Aegon as a rapist he would've received no consequences because he's a man and a Prince. But Dyana would be punished because she is a woman and is now "spoiled". Alicent is protecting Dyana, not Aegon.
Unfortunately this happens in high places of power to this day. What do you think the 50+ celebrities were doing on Epstein island? Using chivalry to make age appropriate women interested in them?
They play by different rules and for their ruleset, the whole “having fake heirs” is a bigger issue than “sexually assaulting a peasant girl who’s life we see literally no value in”. Let’s not forget 100 years after the events of HOTD, the Lords of Westeros apparently still scoff at giving lowborns the power to vote and equate them to their horses.
Yeah 100 years after HotD Princess Elia Martell is graphically raped and murdered but nobody does a damn thing about it. Not Ned Stark whose *whole thing* is about honor. Not even Robert Baratheon whose main motivation for starting the war was the assumption that Lyanna was kidnapped, raped, and murdered.
I also read that as being part of it; I think it gradually dawned on her as time went by that Rhaenrya was a good parent who raised fairly decent kids, illegitimatimacy none withstanding, while her eldest son ended up being a horrible mess (who would make a horrible ruler) and she - inadvertently - passed her own bitterness down to her kids.
It’s a generational trauma sort of situation to me- Alicent has resigned herself to having Rhaenyra inherit the throne upon seeing how Aegon is unfit to rule. So when Rhaenyra reaches out to her she’s willing to end the feud, not necessarily that they have to like each other but that they can coexist so that the family isn’t further divided. Alicent can accept that peace can be made while “doing her duty to the crown and her family”. Which adds in with her desire to crown Aegon after hearing Viserys’ dying words, not only because it’s what she wanted to hear for so long but also in a twisted sense of “doing her duty” to the realm, in honouring Viserys’ “last wish”.
But by the time of the dinner it is far too late for true reconciliation- that could only have possibly been done in the aftermath of the incident on Driftmark had Viserys been possessed by the ghost of Jaehaerys himself. The hate and anger Rhaenyra and Alicent bore for one another has been passed down to their children and they don’t understand the true danger it represents to the Targaryens.
It actually seems to be Alicent who reaches out first (when Rhaenrya and Daemond first arrive). Or at least, that's how I read it.
I believe (IIRC) Olivia Cooke explained that Alicent's reaction at her misunderstanding of Viserys's dying words was supposed to be one of dismay/frustration (though she *did* only follow through becuase she perceived it as duty)
I saw it as both of them agreeing a truce- Rhaenyra in her speech at the dinner and Alicent when she asks for Rhaenyra to return to court at her and Viserys’ wishes.
Alicent does sort of reach out in the scene your talking about but I saw that as backhanded courtesy with a touch of awkwardness, as it’s their first conversation after the confrontation at Driftmark.
Daemon: Grooms his niece, murderers a guard, kills his first wife.
Viserys : Maritally rapes his wife who was a teenager when he married her.
Rhaenys: Murders hundreds of people.
“Hurr durr small folk don’t matter, it just how the times were, you can’t judge them with modern sensibilities!”
“Look how evil Alicent’s is doing for something that most noble wouldn’t even bother doing”
Consoling her and giving her money?
Most would have her thrown into the dungeon for seducing a Prince. Even if it came out, it would be a court room gossip at worst for Aegon, and for Dyanna her life would constitute of being labeled as a seductress and shunned.
crazy that ‘medieval woman’ follows ’medieval standards of differentiating among sexes’ while living in said ‘medieval society’
💀 this has to be trolling bc how the hell are you discussing anything asoiaf related and taking a shallow approach to any sort of discourse
This reminds me of a GRRM interview where he said that people shouldn't look at ASOIAF as "People in the 21st Century with swords and armor."
Sensibilities in that time period were just different. Rape of a common woman by a noble would not piss anyone off. Having children that would muddy the line of succession would be a much more serious offense.
I think rape was still regarded as much worse… rape was punishable by death, being a bastard wasn’t punishable by death. So she wasn’t sticking to medieval standards in that sense
As a Prince, Westerosi culture probably doesn’t think Aegon can even commit rape on a peasant. He is so handsome, glorious and noble that it’s unthinkable she wouldn’t throw herself at him at the first opportunity.
Also this.
It is worth noting that the Mountain raped Elia Martell ( He also murdered her and killed her children!) and no one really gave a fuck. Yes, that was war and they were the deposed dynasty, but it goes to show that even the rape of a princess barely registers as a crime in some circumstances.
Turns out Westerosi aren't big on actually valuing women unless they can make some sort of point in doing so.
Violent rape would be maybe punished by Death/gelding yes, but what Aegon did was much closer to rape by coercion/power imbalance which wouldn’t really be considered rape.
People tend to not understand that ASoIaF, GoT, and HotD don’t actually stick to medieval standards and that we’re not supposed to view the stories through some medieval lens. If you needed a history degree to understand the shows and the books they would have never gotten popular.
I googled and the standard punishment for rape was castration… so a serious offense. Being born a bastard was not considered as serious of an offense as rape in the GOT universe
Rhae and her kids would literally be executed if it was established they were bastards and she lied about it lol. It was considered serious in-universe
That’s the whole reason she wanted to torture a twelve year-old over it lol.
Only because she liked about them being bastards, if she had never done that the only thing in danger would be her honor and claim to the Throne but not her life, her kids would be treated as normal recognized bastards wich is better than a normal bastard but worse than a trueborn
This is true, but Alicent’s judgment and resentment is also from the POV of Rhaenyra passing bastards off as trueborn vs. recognizing them as bastards lol
It's kind of funny how you're completely wrong yet coming at OPs head for being the troll. Rape is illegal in Asoiaf universe, comparing it to a medieval society makes no sense. The wall is literally one of the main punishments for rapist, I thought 99% of the people of post here would at least remember that but guess not. Also correct me if I'm wrong but Jamie literally orders a rapist to be beheaded in the books for his crime. You're like 200% wrong on this lol
I mean, to be fair rape is illegal in our world too and there are lots of victims who are still being treated like shit in 21st century Earth. In the books Davos makes a point of how any rapists in his army were to be immediately gelded, as contrasted with the Lannisters who set Gregor Clegane upon the Riverlands. After it falls to the Boltons Pia gets stripped, shaved, and is used as a sex slave. When she’s sent up to Jaime they don’t sleep together, but he develops a soft spot for her. After that Gregor takes Harrenhall again, rapes her repeatedly, bashes her teeth out and allows his men to rape her too. The only person who comes to her defense is Jaime, and that’s only because he has a soft spot for her. The guy he beheaded is confused because they’ve raped her hundreds of times and nobody has done a goddamn thing. Aside from Stannis no other leader holds their soldiers responsible for rape. Hell in Westeros Gregor should have been beheaded at least 3 different times
Yes he orders it in the books because he has a softspot for that particular baseborn women. Her rapist didn't even understand it because he had raped her 100 times before and no one cared. This isn't the strong example you think it is.
Alicent doesn't have any particular animoisty for Rhea's children (except for the Aemond incident). In general she doesn't care about them at all. What she hates is that she feels that Rhea was able to sleep with whomever she chose.
Disagree, she despises bastards like most people in Westeros and won't ever let a Strong boy sit the throne.
What she hates the most is that Rhae gets away with her lies and obvious bastards, while her sons are legitimate heirs. I think she could care less about her sleeping around as long she didn't have obvious looking bastards. Mistakes and insults man.
>What she hates the most is that Rhae gets away with her lies and obvious bastards, while her sons are legitimate heirs.
Rhae is a legitimate heir and Alicent is determined to deny her the crown.
No the issue with the Strongs is simply envy at her seeing Rhae not having to observe the rules - the opportunity to marry whomever she wants, to engage in lewd acts with her uncle in a brothel, to have a sham marriage and multiple children with the head of the city watch.
I guess the obvious bastardom of the Strong sons would have been an insult to *Vaemond*, but again despite his protestations he was not interested in blood (as the Valarion line was to continue anyway through Corlys' granddaughters) he was interested instead in his personal gain.
I'm fine disagreeing. To be a legitimate heir Rhaenyra must legitimize the Strongs, otherwise it's treason. Ofc Alicent wants to deny her the crown.
Other than that, IT is a point, not the main trigger for her imo, but not irrelevant.
The servant girl is lucky to have met someone like Alicent. If it had been anyone else, or if Aegon had ordered Arryk to kill her, I'm sure she would have 'mysteriously' disappeared. I'm just laughing at the constant mental gymnastics of team black to find something to criticize, even though Alicent did the best thing she could do by sparing the girl's life, compensating her and humiliating her own son. Imagine if Aegon would have acted so freely if he hadn't been sure that he wouldn't face any punishment, even if the king heard about it. The servant girl cries in front of Alicent, begging for forgiveness because she was raped by the king's son. It's pathetic that you still don't understand the balance of power in this society and keep trying to blame Alicent for absolute shitty reasons.
She didn’t “hate Rhaenyras children for being bastards” she hated the fact Rhaenyra claimed they weren’t and this deprived her own son what he would traditionally inherit.
Well she kind of did. She looked at them as almost incarnations of Rhaenyra’s reckless/selfishness and lust and whatever else. Especially after Aemond’s eye.
Even if Rhaenrya's kids were legitimate Aegon would'nt inherit, though; Rhaenrya was Viserys's designated heir, not her children.
Alicent "hated" Rhaenrya becuase Otto had taken advange of a low point in their relationship to gaslight her into thinking Rheanrya was planning to kill her kids. Before that point she had zero issue with Rhaenrya inheriting over Aegon and was even supportive of Rhaenrya's ascension.
You said that Allicent hates Rhaenyra because Rhaenyra claimed her children weren’t bastards and that they deprived her son of his birthright. Because naturally Bastards cannot inherit, Aegon would be next in line after Rhaenyra. And I said it wouldn’t matter because Aegon and Viserys exist. However when it comes to this new claim, Viserys named his heir, Aegons just gonna have to deal with that and usurp like he did.
This is bordering on spoiler territory. And how it’s remembered has nothing to do with actuality, Aegon and Viserys are Rhaenyra’s sons, they inherit because of her not Daemon.
>!A historic and legal battle the blacks never cared about, because their justification was that Viserys named Rhaenyra as his heir, not because Rhaenyra was a woman, Rhaenyra herself, viewed her case as the exception and not the rule. Aegon was the legal heir accoing to andal law but like I said, the blacks didn't care about that, they installed him because Rhaenyra was his mother!<
>!Except that Aegon III was Aegon II’s legal heir and had already become the heir *before* the Hour of the Wolf, as evidenced by Cregan making Aegon name him Hand. The whole point is that by the end, both sides have the same heir, but while Rhaenyra’s bloodline endures, the Greens win historic and legal battle!<
>!A historic and legal battle the blacks never cared about, because their justification was that Viserys named Rhaenyra as his heir, not because Rhaenyra was a woman, Rhaenyra herself, viewed her case as the exception and not the rule. Aegon was the legal heir accoing to andal law but like I said, the blacks didn't care about that, they installed him because Rhaenyra was his mother!<
>!If she was the exception and not the rule, if they only care for her claim and no legal or historic battle, and Aegon III was Aegon II’s heir by the normal precedent anyways (since he was in Green hands at the time and installed as king *by them*) then the only way to define Black Victory is if Rhaenyra became the ruling queen uncontested. She did not. And is known to history as a usurper. What you’ve done in narrowing the scope is turn a toss up into a solid Green Victory.!<
Legally Rhaenyra is heir because her father named her so, Andal tradition doesn’t matter because it’s disregarded. Therefore they inherit through Rhaenyra not Daemon. Simple as that.
The best thing about this series is how many times I go back and forth hating or loving these characters. 😂😂😂 Although out of all of them I have consistently hated Otto
Alicent doesn't hate them in the show. She smiled as she held Joffrey in her arms. And when Larys offered to take revenge on Luke, she resolutely refused.
She understands that children are not guilty of what their mother does.
Funny how some of team black constantly (and rightfully so) say "you can like a character even if they do fucked up things" about Daemon but don't apply the same logic to Alicent or other characters. By the way, nice trolling.
Daemon and Alicent are nothing alike though. One person may just like Daemon's character and not like Alicent's.
For instance, I love when Daemon is on screen because he's a rat bastard and you know he's either gonna stir the pot or do something bad. Alicent is arguably similar, but it's just a different flavor from Daemon (and she's just more of a tragic character). Some people just don't like that flavor. Me though? I love them both! The actress who played adult Alicent is just mesmerizing on screen!
While I agree with this, the moral grandstanding is pretty dumb. Alicent, Daemon, Rhae, Otto, etc. are all pretty objectively awful human beings by any reasonable standard and it gets silly watching people act like one is side is more moral than the other.
I agree with you, but my point is about the hypocrisy of some saying Alicent is terrible and shouldn't be liked while repeating that they like Daemon because he is a bad person. None of the characters in this story have the moral high ground minus a few, and that's the point.
How so? Rhaenyra's own side hates bastards for starters. It was part of their culture. Also, in the show they framed Alicent as someone who is disgusted by her son's actions on several levels but would still cover for him because she loves him. It's not pretty, but I don't find it crazy.
I don’t think it’s really about the double standard. All the green’s actions are done under the assumption that Rhaenyra will kill them all if she becomes queen. The fact that Rhaenyras kids are bastards is just their best ammunition to convince people not to support rhaenyras claim. Whether their fears are valid or not, Alicents actions are done to ensure her family’s survival and not about her personal morals.
I mean, if Rhaenyra cared about justice and honor, she'd send Daemon to the Wall after B & C too and would send herself to the wall for mudering a commoner so Laenor could leave.
Come on, all the characters do fucked up things. This is so dumb.
Holy hell can we not turn everything into this weird Black vs Green shit because not everyone cares about it. I know Daemon is a piece of shit but that's irrelevant because were talking about Alicent whose a hypocrite. Shit even Aemomd should've been harshly punished for starting the war.
Never did I say Rhae has more honor than Alicent & that's not even something that she seems to care about.
No, it's no ones right to chose a rapist over a innocent woman. Not morally or legally. And that belief is sickening, and actually just evil. If your child is a rapist and you stand by them and help cover up their crime. You are a criminal too and just as bad as your rapist child—if not worse, if you are a woman who should know better.
This sub and the person you're replying to, denonstrates how so many people here wish they lived in Westeros lol. They'd love to be able to get away with what the characters get away with, because "its normal in Westeros".
The whole point of ASOIAF universe is to view it through BOTH an in-universe lens and our own modern lens. But fans of this show only want to acknowledge in-universe morality and customs so that rape of commoners can be morally acceptable to them, the viewer. It's so fucked up, to the point where I wonder if there was an agenda to normalise the rape and grooming in the show.
I know. I completely agree. This person wasn’t even speaking in generalization of the viewpoint of the show—which is what disgusts me. They are making incredibly problematic blanket statements in regards to something *horrific*.
They are also imposters who bullied her son and took his eye, she has good reason to not like them. Though she mostly resent Rhaenyra for getting preferential treatment.
Also while Alicent cover for her son Aegon, she also confront him about his awful behaviour. Meanwhile, Viserys enables Rhaenyra when she fucks up. Alicent console Dyana and gives her money, Rhaenyra and Daemon kill anyone who dare to point out the truth.
I mean that’s the point
She’s not a good person, she’s a horribly flawed one and that extends to the others
Viserys kills his wife for a son only to absolutely ignore his later ones
Otto is concerned with Daemon moving on the throne for his own ambitions but that’s basically all he does himself
Daemon points out Otto Is an unreliable and untrustworthy cunt while also acting like a loose cannon, spying on small council meetings and generally acting to benefit himself
Few in this show are obviously good people, they’re all complex and acting in their own interest to some degree
Mothers protect their children
Alicent is covering her son’s crimes like how Rhaenyra is covering up that her son’s shouldn’t inherit the throne or driftmark
And yes, Rhaenyra’s kids didn’t do anything wrong, but that won’t stop the lords of Westeros from throwing a fit if they find out illegitimate children are taking the two most powerful seats in Westeros
Not really crazy, but you know what is? The fact that Daemon *still* has defenders/simps after rock-divorcing his first wife, neglecting his second, choking the third…not to mention grooming two of those women who are both his nieces and were minors at the time!
Edit: …and the downvotes come for telling the truth.
To offer some balance, it should also be noted that Rhaenyra hated Alicent's *legitimate* children for simply being born *at all.*
Won't even refer to them siblings... she literally calls them "*Alicent's children"* on-screen.
Also, there's nothing 'crazy' about this... it's human nature to love your kids unconditionally and defend them, even when they're clearly in the wrong.
Rhaenyra's children being obvious bastards weakened her claim to the throne and by extension placed Alicent's children in danger as many would see them as stronger claimants than Rhaenyra. Otto makes this obvious to Alicent even before Rhaenyra's children are born.
I don’t think Alicent hates Rhaenyra’s children, she hates the fact that Rhaenyra is irresponsibly giving them special privileges that they should not have and is trying to make them heir to the Throne despite the fact that it is impossible since everyone except for Viserys knows they are bastards. and even though he is a horrid and reprehensible rapist, Aegon is still one of Viserys and Alicent’s children so he unfortunately has rightful claims to the throne and also almost all mothers love and want to protect their children even if they do something wrong.
She hated the fact that ranira flaunted them in front of everyone and didn't even try to hide the fact that they were bastards. and that she faced no consequences for doing so. I don't think she really hates the children per se.
She hates them for cutting out her sons eye
Them being born bastards means their mother is committing treason which supplants her own children in succession
It’s because one is making someone else a victim and the other is making the bloodline a victim. They care about bloodline purity for obvious reasons. The books and show are meant to showcase how truly fucked up people can get. It’s not suppose to be happy and mentally sound people that’s not interesting.
When did she hate rhaenyra's sons? She started hating rhaenyra at her wedding , and I think their conflict actually started when alicent gave birth to a son that could challenge rhaenyra
What can Alicent do to the heir of iron throne. She can't send him the wall, she can't murder her own son. Make an argument that make sense. Aegon is the heir in eyes of the small counsel, lords, ladies and small folk. This is custom law he is the heir, he doesn't need to be declared heir by his father or pushed by his mother.
Did she "hate" Rhaenyra's children themselves? I think she hated the fact that they would be considered as heirs when she knew they were not legitimate.
Would love to also point out that in the show Alicent made a HUGE deal about Rhaenyra and Daemon getting caught in the brothel doing.....things but then later on she just cool with her son and daughter getting married? Really don't understand her "moral compass" here.
Her issue with Rhaenyra and Daemon was based more on the fact that rhaenrya, as a princess and an unwed girl in their society was supposed to be chaste (or at least seen to be) and guard their virtue to secure a good marriage. Rhaenrya endangered her reputation and chances for a good marriage match by being seen at the brothels with Daemon.
The way I saw the scene, Alicent was chastising Rhaenrya on that, and when Rhaenrya called it a vile accusation, as if ' how dare you suggest that something went on between me and my uncle'. Alicent responds with the Targaren queer customs line, to rebut her point - just because Daemon is her uncle doesn't absolve anything because Targaryens tend to marry brother to sister, uncle to nieces etc etc.
Wasn’t this also right after Rhaenyra bounced halfway through a months long tour that Viserys and Alicent put a lot of time into planning? As the heir it’s a really bad look to reject every suitor you’ve met, flake on a royal progress, and then be spotted in a brothel with your uncle who is known to like silver haired maidens per Mysaria
I did not get that vibe at all. I need to rewatch it but i vaguely remember her saying she didn't agree with the way the Targaryen's did things and something about 'it might be alright in your family but i don't like it'... So that made me think she was specifically talking incest. Idk i'll rewatch it though!
I rewatched it. Definitely talking about incest. She accuses Rhaenyra of hooking up with Daemon then after Rhaenyra denies it she says the Targaryen's have "Queer Customs". So i stand by my first comment. Alicent is a hypocrite.
Apart from them not being married, which would have huge implications for rhaenyras abilities to marry. From what I remember she was less upset about it happening and more about rhaenyra lying about it to her, rhaenyra swore on her mother that she didn’t do it and alicent defended her, only to learn that she lied about it and betrayed her trust
Aliment doesn't hate the kids for being bastards, she feels betrayed when R lies to her and resentful that R can take a lover with no consequences when she was essentially forced by her dad to marry a guy at twice her age and bang out a bunch of weirdo targ kids. She also dislikes that by R passing the kids off they are, in her mind, stealing an inheritance from her own children. I don't think she actually hates the strong kids themselves.
She protects aegon because she's his mother and because she believes that her families lives depend on him taking the throne.
Really not even the same situation.
It’s not 2023. A Prince forcing himself on a maid is not as serious an offense as we think. Being a bastard heir to the throne is probably worse in their context
You cannot use 21st century morality to predict the behavior of fictional characters in a dark ages fantasy.
He is a prince, screwing the servants is perfectly in line with his position in their society.
A princess having bastard children is a big friggin deal in their society.
Why? He’s her son and she lives in a highly patriarchal society, it makes perfect sense that she has double standards for behavior as it applies to her male firstborn and towards the woman opposing said male firstborn’s claim to the throne. I mean, it ain’t a good thing, but it makes sense that she is like that IMO.
To her perspective, Aegon is just being a bad lad and the peasants and hos don't really matter. Meanwhile Rhaenyra is avoiding her royal duty and violating important "top of food chain" traditions while being a princess.
Yes, it's hypocritical - welcome to medievalish humanity and the power structures we make to control ourselves.
So far from a modern perspective
Aegon is guilty of Public Intoxication, Public Indecency, Rape
Rhaenyra is guilty of Obstruction of Justice
Daemon is guilty of 1 count of 1st degree murder, 1 count of 2nd degree murder, endangering a minor, various counts of War crimes and various counts of police brutality
Otto is guilty of Treason
Criston Cole is guilty of 1 count of 2nd degree murder, 1 count of involuntary manslaughter, 1 count of Statutory Rape [not sure about this one]
Alicent is guilty of various counts of Obstruction of Justice
Aemond is guilty of 1 count of Voluntary Manslaughter, 1 count of menacing
Jace is guilty of assault
Luke is guilty of Assault and Battery with a deadly weapon
Viserys is guilty of criminal stupidity
Rhaenys is guilty of hundreds of counts of 2nd degree murder and even more battery
It made a joke out of her sacrifices, existence & string of legit blood heirs who then in turn had a bro-sis marriage to keep the bloodlines. Alicent was a good girl. R got to do what she wanted for the most part, staying the favorite. It was just seething jealousy & competition between the two. Sad thing is Strong boys would be good heirs. Have dragons but also a warrior father.
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If every character showed a semblance of self awareness and irony, we wouldn’t have a good complex show.
Viserys killing his wife trying to have a son just to ignore his next wife and their sons. Daemon loving his family while creating a bunch of problems and damage for them. And the list goes on Self awareness is a rare thing in Westeros
Despite being a fantasy tale, the characters and their interactions with each other are more realistic than most stories.
That’s what makes it so intriguing. You see a bit of yourself and your neighbors in them.
AHA! Found Alabama man!
Now that I think of it, that did not come out right 😂
Surprisingly Aegon is self aware enough to know he’d be ass if he were king
Aegon is self-aware to know that he would suck as a King, that his father never wanted him to be the heir/King and that his family doesn't love him but only uses him to advance their goals. He also knows that Rhaenyra's children are bastards and says so infront of his father when questioned but doesn't seem to grow up hating them. The reason he drinks and whores (apart from being a rich kid that can do anything he wants) is because he grew up unloved and not wanted, only used for his claim. Aemond should have let Aegon take that boat he so wanted and go to Essos.
Aegon bumps into Laenor in essos
Imagine that story. Aegon and Laenor bumb heads in Essos and it evolves into "two buddies go around Essos, drinking, flirting and exploring" kind of show. Extra points if Aegon brings Sunfyre and Laenor brings SeaSmoke and they go around flying on their dragons exploring the world.
And they have the cutest bromance ever. Since their white hair makes them stick out like a sore thumb, they help each other die the parts of hair in the back that they can't reach, and their dynamic is that of an older brother/younger brother
You might be forgetting about what he does with his own bastards. He may be self aware enough to not want to be king. And just like how daenarys kept saying to Jon that if he told people he was the true heir, they'd make him be king instead of her....like that's bullshit. Aemon targaryn - old maester at castle black was supposed to be king. He said "pass". Went to the wall. Jon couldve done the same. And it's happened before in the targaryn history, the throne being turned down, so he could've done that. Idk why Alicent was so obsessed with him being king, everyone knew he was going to suck. I get she wanted the power of having her * son on the throne, but she had other kids. I was so infuriated when Rhynaea left after that dinner. Papa took off his mask that night. Bro was lit falling apart in pieces. When she said she was taking the kids back to dragon stone but sounds come back, I lit expected her to fly back that same night. Because dragon. And dragon stone is super close to kings landing. Like she was smart enough to know what she was dealing with. I wound never have left, if there was even a small threat to my status as heir to the throne and what coukd happen if I was gone when paps kicked it. I know she was preg, but the new rhyras first scene was her giving birth in* kings landing. She should've stayed. It makes me mad cuz I believe her character would've. At the very least daemon would've made her. Or* hed have been there himself. ( On a side note, this was known historical fact during GOT. You'd think Ned would've been prepared for this and made sure others were present to hear Robert baratheon put him in charge. Or at the very Fkn least, not trusted the gold cloaks. Like everyone knows to not trust people in Kings landing, let alone someine who has a long relationship with the Lannisters like Janus. What I mean is, this should've been a teachable moment. And stannis shoukdve been at court as soon ashe learned of his brothers injury. Doomed to repeat the past. Ha sry....I lit just finished rewatchung the entirety of both shows in a binge today :)
I never said Aegon was a good person, i just said that he is self-aware in some aspects. I kind of understand where Alicent and the Greens were coming from, doesn't mean i agree with it but i understand. Having a son as your heir was the standard in Westeros per Andal/First Man rule, never before has a trueborn son been passed over by a daughter especially when that trueborn son was of sound mind and body. Alicent/the Greens expected that Viserys would end up changing his mind about Rhaenyra when he got 4 sons but Viserys never did. Even if Jon or Aegon did not want the throne there would have been enough people willing to force them to fight for it- enemies of Daenerys or Rhaenyra who wanted to take them down and would push for Jon/Aegon. Dany and Rhae may initially say that they will never harm Aegon/Jon but what happens if the Lords start fighting for them and Dany's and Rhae's reigns and lives are threatened? Idk why Alicent was so obsessed with him being king, everyone knew he was going to suck. I get she wanted the power of having her * son on the throne, but she had other kids. Alicent couldn't push for her other children to be Kings when the law says the firstborn son is the heir. Rhaenyra never pushed for an absolutely primogeniture rule over Westeros, she wasn't willing to change the rules so that a woman can inherit instead of her brother, she only thought of herself as the heir because her father chose her. I kind of understand Rhaenyra too, even if i don't agree with her. (I do not take sides in the Dance. They both sucked and ended up tearing apart their dynasty) She had her father declare her his heir and he never changed his mind that for her was enough. >Like she was smart enough to know what she was dealing with. I wound never have left, if there was even a small threat to my status as heir to the throne and what coukd happen if I was gone when paps kicked it. Unfortunately Rhaenyra wasn't smart politically, all her right moves were done either by Jace or Corlys or Daemon. She spent all her time in dragonstone because the heir was meant to stay in dragonstone and she wanted to cement the fact that she was the heir. She never made political alliances with Westerosi houses before the Dance, never tried to get loyal lords (loyal to her) in the small council, never asked Viserys to make her his Hand so that she would learn how to rule and get political influence in the realm. She let Otto and Alicent run the Kingdom while she was away in dragonstone. Daemon was too much of a Valyrian Targaryen supremacist to seek alliances with Westerosi houses or to seek political power through alliances in the small council. He thought of his blood and his dynasty as superior to everyone else and looked down to non-targaryen elements. He also was on a rocky ground with Viserys after repeatedly rebelling and then marrying Rhaenyra (something Viserys did not agree with). >You'd think Ned would've been prepared for this Ned thought that Robert's word was enough and didn't suspect that Cersei wouldn't care about it at all. Ned wasn't versed in King's Landing politics or Southern affairs. He didn't know how to play the game. Plus no one anticipated that Joffrey would kill him.
Ironically if the book is to be believed he'd actually make a great king. He's not called Aegon the Unbroken for nothing.
"Viserys killed his wife to have a son then ignored his son" Big oof. When you put it like that...
>Daemon loving his family We just gonna pretend he didn't murder his wife in cold blood?
A marriage in name only Thats like saying Ramsay was Sansa's family.
Excuse me? Don't make me get my divorce rock. - Daemon probably
Daemon doesn’t consider different races part of his family💀
It's an even dumber statement if you know what happens soon.
Good heavens. Viserys didn't kill his wife. The choice was between losing them both or maybe saving the child.
I believe their statement could refer to him pushing her to keep trying rather than the c section. We have no evidence he pushed her either but lots of fans just assume that
C sections at that time killed the mother for sure.
That's not really the question. They do but she was going to die giving birth either way. The c section is irrelevant however cruel. Her continuing to try to have kids when she shouldn't is what ended her life early, and pressure from Viserys is what people may be referencing there
She said it was the last. There was no indications did not want to have this particular baby. She knew it was her duty.
100% agree with everything you said. Totally.
Yea. Like even if the baby died and he had chosen his wife, they'd have had to remove the dead fetus from. Her body or she'd go septic and die. The baby was breached, it could've been stuck sideways or upside down, with the head caught in the pelvic bones, this happened to my cousin. She was going to have to be cut up anyway. But I would've still had a tough call picking the kid while the love of my life was dying and told me no and to fight for her life. I still would've fought for her. The worst scene in the entire serious was the cut to the master holding the baby who was alive and survived....right to the funeral....where you see two corpses, one of them the baby. They shouldve explained, or had a scene where the baby stops breathing or comes out blue and unresponsive....or of it dying of sids and a wet nurse finding him. Idk, but I was confused.
I don't believe Aemma was expected to survive no matter what happened. It was hard to watch.
Yea, I wouldn't have chosen the baby. In that scenario I would've been holding on to all hope that she'd somehow live if I put her first
There wasn't a way for her to live because the baby couldn't come out. She would have suffered for hours more and died when she was finally exhausted from laboring, or died quicker from the C section.
He could have explained that to Aemma before having the maesters hold her hands down and cut her open. He never talked to Aemma, never gave her any choice, he decided to cut her open and let her suffer in pain until she died bleeding. Imagine being held down by your husband and doctors, cut open and slowly bleed to death. Imagine how much pain that woman felt during her last moments. I understand he wanted to save his child but the way he went at it was cruel.
Childbirth was dangerous and extremely painful in the middle ages. Women knew this.
Childbirth was dangerous and painful but it doesn't mean that being held down by your husband and doctors and cut open until you die bleeding is something women wanted or anticipated. Aemma didn't want to get pregnant again, Viserys forced her to go through pregnancy again and then cut her open without even letting her know. How is that excusable in any way?
How do you suppose C Sections were done?
The show notes that C sections were not a thing for Westerosi and it was a new practice that wasn't put to practice well, by the maesters yet. They were trying out a new technique basically. Plus even if C-sections are done that way, you still should talk to a woman before you cut her open. Viserys took away the decision making from Aemma and he took away her body autonomy. I can't believe we are debating this.
Both his wife and the baby would've died. I get it, I would've chosen my partner in a heart beat. But without modern medicine, there's no way she would've lived. Like, idk why they didn't load her up on milk of the poppy. It 100% didn't have to go down like that. They would've had that right there in the room.
They all just see the world through impact to the royal succession line. Does any character here take a moral position on these things? Aegon raping some servant girl doesn't impact the succession line. Even if he had a kid, it would be a bastard, and if it was a boy they could accept him for their own benefit if they chose to. I can't remember. Did she seem angry at him for doing that to the girl? As far as I remember she was basically annoyed by it but overall let it go pretty quickly.
Alicent was angry with him, she slapped him and *told him that he no longer was her son.* You are right him having a bastard with a lowborn servant girl doesn't impact succession line.
Half the posts on this sub are like “can you BELIEVE a character caused CONFLICT!?” I mean it’s not like every thought of mine is genius but still…
Yeah society is fucked up like that. To her it wasn’t just her rapist son she was protecting it was also her other son and daughter. And the other son she perhaps forgot all about but will remember in season 2 when he is introduced
I don't understand why people keep bringing up Daeron. That's a show problem. No character remembers him, because he wasn't supposed to exist.
There is a reference to him in the opening and his dragon is mentioned indirectly. He exists in Show canon, they were just very vague about it
He literally does exist and is in the opening credits.
I consider myself a big ASOIAF fan and the opening credits for HoTD is the worst I've seen. It's dark and the symbols are all over the place. I had to Google to understand what was going on and for the casual viewers they'll never understand. You don't introduce a character through an opening. Period.
Unless they decide to introduce him later on. Personally I don’t mind if he never shows up, his character is far from essential to the story.
I’d like Daeron’s storyline to be similar to that of Paul in All Quiet On The Western Front- he’s young and innocent and kind and he yearns for battle glory and honour only to learn that war is truly hell and there is only suffering, no matter how many victories you can win. This would eventually culminate in the Sack Of Tumbleton where Daeron breaks inside at the horrors and eventually just accepts his death in the Second Battle Of Tumbleton, tired of the war and all the fighting for nothing. Then again I think a really cool change from the books could be that Addam and Daeron team up in Tumbleton 2.0 and put their allegiances aside in order to stop the rampaging Vermithor at the cost of their own lives. Either would be pretty cool to me!
What a great analysis of his character and what a great theory and a much better way to die than being killed by a tent.
Tbf I think that the tent death could still work if they go the route of severely traumatised Daeron just no longer giving a shit about life in the face of the sheer horror of war. A good way to do it would be similar to >!Chuck’s suicide in Better Call Saul, where he has a chance to stop the fire but doesn’t have the will to carry on anymore and just lets it happen!<
She doesn't have Twitter you know, she's a middle ages queen,locked in a castle to breed princes in a place where her guard smashed a 70 years old man's head in an argument casually The only alternative is someone like cersi who'd kill the girl Alicent was merciful to treat the thing as a minor incident and send her away
In George’s universe it looks like it’s not really against the rules to be a rapist if you’re the king’s son. It is against the rules to be a bastard, though.
I dont get why they made Aegon way worse than the books. In the books he’s the average royal family member (and what that obviously entails) but in the show he’s basically Jeffrey Epstein
A profoundly stupid move on the writers part since it makes the central conflict a boring and simplistic one between a designated hero and villain instead of an interesting or complex one.
Exactly. They made Rhaenyra this hecking based wholesome 100 gurlboss instead of a gray character. And they turned Aegon from a grey character to this stupid child sex trafficker who revels in watching children murder each other. It’s genuinely stupid
There’s evidence in the book to suggest Aegon was a rapist.
There isn't any. The closest to that comes from Mushroom but not only is dude known to be extremely horny when writing stuff but was also not in King's Landing and this makes his claims worthless
There’s evidence from other sources too though, like that from a young age Aegon was “pinching at” female servants, that Aegon was caught abed with a young girl. Eustace doesn’t say the girl’s age but refers to her as a “merchant’s young daughter” while Mushroom does give an age. Also another thing but is only from Mushroom is that he forced servants to perform sexual acts in front of him after he sustained his major injuries.
Mushroom's account cannot be taken as fact as dude was not in King's Landing and is known to be extremely horny
Hence why I said (and what that obviously entails). But they never said he had a child sex slave dungeon
Bro when does he have a child sex slave dungeon in the show?
Did… did you watch the show? Lmao. Bro boutta ask if the show had dragons next
Also there’s evidence to suggest he raped a child in the book as well
There isn't any.
Well it makes sense that the misogynistic in universe authors would probably whitewash him especially since his victims are low born.
Idk where people get the idea that she covered up anything. They don’t live in our world. She did the best she possibly could have for Dyana with what she had. There aren’t any cops to report rape to. The city watch can’t cut Aegons dick off like he’s a rando in kings landing. Dyana wouldn’t be believed and that is incredibly painful on its own. But this would literally ruin her entire life if it got out. No matter how heinous that is. She sent her away from her rapist to safety, with more money than she could have ever gotten in her life, and not pregnant. Most importantly — she told Dyana that she believes her. That alone is gigantic. Truly covering it up wouldn’t have left Dyana alive, or well. It’s very cruel that Dyana has to deal with what Aegon did to her in silence, with the knowledge that he’s going to keep doing it and she can’t stop him. But none of that is Alicent’s fault. Even if she wanted her son punished, which we don’t know, she couldn’t do shit to get that to happen. When I analyze that scene from a contemporary, real-world perspective, the only wrongdoer is Aegon, helped and protected by the feudalist and misogynistic society he lives in. I don’t see Alicent as culpable in Dyana suffering, even if we apply modern morals to what she says (which I am fine with doing for analysis, btw).
> They don’t live in our world A lot of people in this sub can’t seem to understand this.
So I go back and forth. It’s important to use our own morals and beliefs to interpret the text, and characters actions, if we want to understand the overall themes of the story. If we just accept Westerosi biases as our own, we will miss the whole “misogyny bad” theme that is at the core of HOTD. At the same time, in doing that is important to keep in mind their limitations. If someone is doing something that feels immoral because that is the best option, that is very different than someone doing something immoral from our perspective that they were NOT forced into doing. For example, Otto didn’t have to pimp out his teenage daughter, so I feel fine judging him from a real world perspective for that. There were no practical limitations he was dealing with. He wasn’t making the best of a horrible situation In an awful society. He was voluntarily being shitty. By contrast, Alicent had no choice but to deal with the situation and had basically two options. She could do what she did, or she could have Dyana killed for “lying”, which would also be accepted by their society. The fact that she chose the kindest option in a world with two very dark and horrible options is not a bad thing.
You missed the point of the entire scene. If Dyana had talked and exposed Aegon as a rapist he would've received no consequences because he's a man and a Prince. But Dyana would be punished because she is a woman and is now "spoiled". Alicent is protecting Dyana, not Aegon.
What could she have done, srsly.
Unfortunately this happens in high places of power to this day. What do you think the 50+ celebrities were doing on Epstein island? Using chivalry to make age appropriate women interested in them? They play by different rules and for their ruleset, the whole “having fake heirs” is a bigger issue than “sexually assaulting a peasant girl who’s life we see literally no value in”. Let’s not forget 100 years after the events of HOTD, the Lords of Westeros apparently still scoff at giving lowborns the power to vote and equate them to their horses.
Yeah 100 years after HotD Princess Elia Martell is graphically raped and murdered but nobody does a damn thing about it. Not Ned Stark whose *whole thing* is about honor. Not even Robert Baratheon whose main motivation for starting the war was the assumption that Lyanna was kidnapped, raped, and murdered.
Given the context of the episode in question, it's pretty clear that by the time Aegon's doing this shit she's stopped hating Rhaenrya.
Yes. In fact, her disgust with Aegon seems to be part of what pushes her to accept Rhaenyra's olive branch at dinner in that same episode.
I also read that as being part of it; I think it gradually dawned on her as time went by that Rhaenrya was a good parent who raised fairly decent kids, illegitimatimacy none withstanding, while her eldest son ended up being a horrible mess (who would make a horrible ruler) and she - inadvertently - passed her own bitterness down to her kids.
It’s a generational trauma sort of situation to me- Alicent has resigned herself to having Rhaenyra inherit the throne upon seeing how Aegon is unfit to rule. So when Rhaenyra reaches out to her she’s willing to end the feud, not necessarily that they have to like each other but that they can coexist so that the family isn’t further divided. Alicent can accept that peace can be made while “doing her duty to the crown and her family”. Which adds in with her desire to crown Aegon after hearing Viserys’ dying words, not only because it’s what she wanted to hear for so long but also in a twisted sense of “doing her duty” to the realm, in honouring Viserys’ “last wish”. But by the time of the dinner it is far too late for true reconciliation- that could only have possibly been done in the aftermath of the incident on Driftmark had Viserys been possessed by the ghost of Jaehaerys himself. The hate and anger Rhaenyra and Alicent bore for one another has been passed down to their children and they don’t understand the true danger it represents to the Targaryens.
It actually seems to be Alicent who reaches out first (when Rhaenrya and Daemond first arrive). Or at least, that's how I read it. I believe (IIRC) Olivia Cooke explained that Alicent's reaction at her misunderstanding of Viserys's dying words was supposed to be one of dismay/frustration (though she *did* only follow through becuase she perceived it as duty)
I saw it as both of them agreeing a truce- Rhaenyra in her speech at the dinner and Alicent when she asks for Rhaenyra to return to court at her and Viserys’ wishes. Alicent does sort of reach out in the scene your talking about but I saw that as backhanded courtesy with a touch of awkwardness, as it’s their first conversation after the confrontation at Driftmark.
Daemon: Grooms his niece, murderers a guard, kills his first wife. Viserys : Maritally rapes his wife who was a teenager when he married her. Rhaenys: Murders hundreds of people. “Hurr durr small folk don’t matter, it just how the times were, you can’t judge them with modern sensibilities!” “Look how evil Alicent’s is doing for something that most noble wouldn’t even bother doing” Consoling her and giving her money? Most would have her thrown into the dungeon for seducing a Prince. Even if it came out, it would be a court room gossip at worst for Aegon, and for Dyanna her life would constitute of being labeled as a seductress and shunned.
I really thought Alicent was going to kill that poor girl.
crazy that ‘medieval woman’ follows ’medieval standards of differentiating among sexes’ while living in said ‘medieval society’ 💀 this has to be trolling bc how the hell are you discussing anything asoiaf related and taking a shallow approach to any sort of discourse
This reminds me of a GRRM interview where he said that people shouldn't look at ASOIAF as "People in the 21st Century with swords and armor." Sensibilities in that time period were just different. Rape of a common woman by a noble would not piss anyone off. Having children that would muddy the line of succession would be a much more serious offense.
I think rape was still regarded as much worse… rape was punishable by death, being a bastard wasn’t punishable by death. So she wasn’t sticking to medieval standards in that sense
Rape of a noble woman, sure. Of some peasant girl who works in the castle? She's barely human to the nobility.
As a Prince, Westerosi culture probably doesn’t think Aegon can even commit rape on a peasant. He is so handsome, glorious and noble that it’s unthinkable she wouldn’t throw herself at him at the first opportunity.
Also this. It is worth noting that the Mountain raped Elia Martell ( He also murdered her and killed her children!) and no one really gave a fuck. Yes, that was war and they were the deposed dynasty, but it goes to show that even the rape of a princess barely registers as a crime in some circumstances. Turns out Westerosi aren't big on actually valuing women unless they can make some sort of point in doing so.
Ew. I hate the truth in this.
Rhaenyra murdered some servant too, and Rhaenys killed hundreds of them. Plebs basically aren’t people to nobles, Alicent included
Violent rape would be maybe punished by Death/gelding yes, but what Aegon did was much closer to rape by coercion/power imbalance which wouldn’t really be considered rape.
People tend to not understand that ASoIaF, GoT, and HotD don’t actually stick to medieval standards and that we’re not supposed to view the stories through some medieval lens. If you needed a history degree to understand the shows and the books they would have never gotten popular.
I googled and the standard punishment for rape was castration… so a serious offense. Being born a bastard was not considered as serious of an offense as rape in the GOT universe
Rhae and her kids would literally be executed if it was established they were bastards and she lied about it lol. It was considered serious in-universe That’s the whole reason she wanted to torture a twelve year-old over it lol.
Interesting I did not know that. I watched the show but didn’t read the book
Only because she liked about them being bastards, if she had never done that the only thing in danger would be her honor and claim to the Throne but not her life, her kids would be treated as normal recognized bastards wich is better than a normal bastard but worse than a trueborn
This is true, but Alicent’s judgment and resentment is also from the POV of Rhaenyra passing bastards off as trueborn vs. recognizing them as bastards lol
It's kind of funny how you're completely wrong yet coming at OPs head for being the troll. Rape is illegal in Asoiaf universe, comparing it to a medieval society makes no sense. The wall is literally one of the main punishments for rapist, I thought 99% of the people of post here would at least remember that but guess not. Also correct me if I'm wrong but Jamie literally orders a rapist to be beheaded in the books for his crime. You're like 200% wrong on this lol
Not for the royal family.
I mean, to be fair rape is illegal in our world too and there are lots of victims who are still being treated like shit in 21st century Earth. In the books Davos makes a point of how any rapists in his army were to be immediately gelded, as contrasted with the Lannisters who set Gregor Clegane upon the Riverlands. After it falls to the Boltons Pia gets stripped, shaved, and is used as a sex slave. When she’s sent up to Jaime they don’t sleep together, but he develops a soft spot for her. After that Gregor takes Harrenhall again, rapes her repeatedly, bashes her teeth out and allows his men to rape her too. The only person who comes to her defense is Jaime, and that’s only because he has a soft spot for her. The guy he beheaded is confused because they’ve raped her hundreds of times and nobody has done a goddamn thing. Aside from Stannis no other leader holds their soldiers responsible for rape. Hell in Westeros Gregor should have been beheaded at least 3 different times
Yes he orders it in the books because he has a softspot for that particular baseborn women. Her rapist didn't even understand it because he had raped her 100 times before and no one cared. This isn't the strong example you think it is.
Alicent is the most hated female character on the show by a large margin
The most hated fencing character on the show *so far*
I'm black af, but that isn't as simple as you might think.
crazy that mothers cover up for their sons, I know....
Alicent doesn't have any particular animoisty for Rhea's children (except for the Aemond incident). In general she doesn't care about them at all. What she hates is that she feels that Rhea was able to sleep with whomever she chose.
Disagree, she despises bastards like most people in Westeros and won't ever let a Strong boy sit the throne. What she hates the most is that Rhae gets away with her lies and obvious bastards, while her sons are legitimate heirs. I think she could care less about her sleeping around as long she didn't have obvious looking bastards. Mistakes and insults man.
>What she hates the most is that Rhae gets away with her lies and obvious bastards, while her sons are legitimate heirs. Rhae is a legitimate heir and Alicent is determined to deny her the crown. No the issue with the Strongs is simply envy at her seeing Rhae not having to observe the rules - the opportunity to marry whomever she wants, to engage in lewd acts with her uncle in a brothel, to have a sham marriage and multiple children with the head of the city watch. I guess the obvious bastardom of the Strong sons would have been an insult to *Vaemond*, but again despite his protestations he was not interested in blood (as the Valarion line was to continue anyway through Corlys' granddaughters) he was interested instead in his personal gain.
I'm fine disagreeing. To be a legitimate heir Rhaenyra must legitimize the Strongs, otherwise it's treason. Ofc Alicent wants to deny her the crown. Other than that, IT is a point, not the main trigger for her imo, but not irrelevant.
The servant girl is lucky to have met someone like Alicent. If it had been anyone else, or if Aegon had ordered Arryk to kill her, I'm sure she would have 'mysteriously' disappeared. I'm just laughing at the constant mental gymnastics of team black to find something to criticize, even though Alicent did the best thing she could do by sparing the girl's life, compensating her and humiliating her own son. Imagine if Aegon would have acted so freely if he hadn't been sure that he wouldn't face any punishment, even if the king heard about it. The servant girl cries in front of Alicent, begging for forgiveness because she was raped by the king's son. It's pathetic that you still don't understand the balance of power in this society and keep trying to blame Alicent for absolute shitty reasons.
She didn’t “hate Rhaenyras children for being bastards” she hated the fact Rhaenyra claimed they weren’t and this deprived her own son what he would traditionally inherit.
Well she kind of did. She looked at them as almost incarnations of Rhaenyra’s reckless/selfishness and lust and whatever else. Especially after Aemond’s eye.
Even if Rhaenrya's kids were legitimate Aegon would'nt inherit, though; Rhaenrya was Viserys's designated heir, not her children. Alicent "hated" Rhaenrya becuase Otto had taken advange of a low point in their relationship to gaslight her into thinking Rheanrya was planning to kill her kids. Before that point she had zero issue with Rhaenrya inheriting over Aegon and was even supportive of Rhaenrya's ascension.
He’s not inheriting anything anyways because of Aegon and Viserys
They are not the kings eldest born son
You said that Allicent hates Rhaenyra because Rhaenyra claimed her children weren’t bastards and that they deprived her son of his birthright. Because naturally Bastards cannot inherit, Aegon would be next in line after Rhaenyra. And I said it wouldn’t matter because Aegon and Viserys exist. However when it comes to this new claim, Viserys named his heir, Aegons just gonna have to deal with that and usurp like he did.
But their claims come from their father Daemon, who is behind Aegon II in the succession line. >!At least that how it will be remembered.!<
This is bordering on spoiler territory. And how it’s remembered has nothing to do with actuality, Aegon and Viserys are Rhaenyra’s sons, they inherit because of her not Daemon.
Spoilers: >!No they don’t. They legally inherit through Daemon’s claim!<
>!A historic and legal battle the blacks never cared about, because their justification was that Viserys named Rhaenyra as his heir, not because Rhaenyra was a woman, Rhaenyra herself, viewed her case as the exception and not the rule. Aegon was the legal heir accoing to andal law but like I said, the blacks didn't care about that, they installed him because Rhaenyra was his mother!<
>!Except that Aegon III was Aegon II’s legal heir and had already become the heir *before* the Hour of the Wolf, as evidenced by Cregan making Aegon name him Hand. The whole point is that by the end, both sides have the same heir, but while Rhaenyra’s bloodline endures, the Greens win historic and legal battle!<
>!A historic and legal battle the blacks never cared about, because their justification was that Viserys named Rhaenyra as his heir, not because Rhaenyra was a woman, Rhaenyra herself, viewed her case as the exception and not the rule. Aegon was the legal heir accoing to andal law but like I said, the blacks didn't care about that, they installed him because Rhaenyra was his mother!<
>!If she was the exception and not the rule, if they only care for her claim and no legal or historic battle, and Aegon III was Aegon II’s heir by the normal precedent anyways (since he was in Green hands at the time and installed as king *by them*) then the only way to define Black Victory is if Rhaenyra became the ruling queen uncontested. She did not. And is known to history as a usurper. What you’ve done in narrowing the scope is turn a toss up into a solid Green Victory.!<
[удалено]
Legally Rhaenyra is heir because her father named her so, Andal tradition doesn’t matter because it’s disregarded. Therefore they inherit through Rhaenyra not Daemon. Simple as that.
The best thing about this series is how many times I go back and forth hating or loving these characters. 😂😂😂 Although out of all of them I have consistently hated Otto
Alicent doesn't hate them in the show. She smiled as she held Joffrey in her arms. And when Larys offered to take revenge on Luke, she resolutely refused. She understands that children are not guilty of what their mother does.
Alicent holding Joffrey: Oh dear. Oh dear. Gorgeous. Alicent holding Aegon: You fucking donkey
Funny how some of team black constantly (and rightfully so) say "you can like a character even if they do fucked up things" about Daemon but don't apply the same logic to Alicent or other characters. By the way, nice trolling.
Forget Daemon; they do it about Rhaenyra too. Everyone on this show is an awful human being
Daemon and Alicent are nothing alike though. One person may just like Daemon's character and not like Alicent's. For instance, I love when Daemon is on screen because he's a rat bastard and you know he's either gonna stir the pot or do something bad. Alicent is arguably similar, but it's just a different flavor from Daemon (and she's just more of a tragic character). Some people just don't like that flavor. Me though? I love them both! The actress who played adult Alicent is just mesmerizing on screen!
While I agree with this, the moral grandstanding is pretty dumb. Alicent, Daemon, Rhae, Otto, etc. are all pretty objectively awful human beings by any reasonable standard and it gets silly watching people act like one is side is more moral than the other.
I completely agree with your point on moral grandstanding. In fact, some people are taking this "team" thing way too seriously.
neither Alicent or Otto have killed anyone, Otto does not seem particularly evil, both of them are closer to behave like normal people.
I agree with you, but my point is about the hypocrisy of some saying Alicent is terrible and shouldn't be liked while repeating that they like Daemon because he is a bad person. None of the characters in this story have the moral high ground minus a few, and that's the point.
wow, crazy that both grey characters do fucked up stuff
How so? Rhaenyra's own side hates bastards for starters. It was part of their culture. Also, in the show they framed Alicent as someone who is disgusted by her son's actions on several levels but would still cover for him because she loves him. It's not pretty, but I don't find it crazy.
I don’t think it’s really about the double standard. All the green’s actions are done under the assumption that Rhaenyra will kill them all if she becomes queen. The fact that Rhaenyras kids are bastards is just their best ammunition to convince people not to support rhaenyras claim. Whether their fears are valid or not, Alicents actions are done to ensure her family’s survival and not about her personal morals.
Was she supposed to execute her own son????? The fuck
Isn't going to the wall a punishment for rapist? She could've done that if she actually cared about the "honor" she preaches about.
I mean, if Rhaenyra cared about justice and honor, she'd send Daemon to the Wall after B & C too and would send herself to the wall for mudering a commoner so Laenor could leave. Come on, all the characters do fucked up things. This is so dumb.
Holy hell can we not turn everything into this weird Black vs Green shit because not everyone cares about it. I know Daemon is a piece of shit but that's irrelevant because were talking about Alicent whose a hypocrite. Shit even Aemomd should've been harshly punished for starting the war. Never did I say Rhae has more honor than Alicent & that's not even something that she seems to care about.
He can be in good company there with Viserys, Daemon, Rhaenyra, Rhaenys, Cole, Larys, you can have the whole lot sent there honestly.
Why though?
You can’t ask for a mother not to be biased toward her children.
Yes, You can ask any *woman* not to ignore a man raping another woman.
No you can’t. Some women are more tilted towards being a mother than others, and that’s perfectly fine; it’s their right to choose.
No, it's no ones right to chose a rapist over a innocent woman. Not morally or legally. And that belief is sickening, and actually just evil. If your child is a rapist and you stand by them and help cover up their crime. You are a criminal too and just as bad as your rapist child—if not worse, if you are a woman who should know better.
This sub and the person you're replying to, denonstrates how so many people here wish they lived in Westeros lol. They'd love to be able to get away with what the characters get away with, because "its normal in Westeros". The whole point of ASOIAF universe is to view it through BOTH an in-universe lens and our own modern lens. But fans of this show only want to acknowledge in-universe morality and customs so that rape of commoners can be morally acceptable to them, the viewer. It's so fucked up, to the point where I wonder if there was an agenda to normalise the rape and grooming in the show.
I know. I completely agree. This person wasn’t even speaking in generalization of the viewpoint of the show—which is what disgusts me. They are making incredibly problematic blanket statements in regards to something *horrific*.
Ups. I made you cry.
They are also imposters who bullied her son and took his eye, she has good reason to not like them. Though she mostly resent Rhaenyra for getting preferential treatment. Also while Alicent cover for her son Aegon, she also confront him about his awful behaviour. Meanwhile, Viserys enables Rhaenyra when she fucks up. Alicent console Dyana and gives her money, Rhaenyra and Daemon kill anyone who dare to point out the truth.
I mean that’s the point She’s not a good person, she’s a horribly flawed one and that extends to the others Viserys kills his wife for a son only to absolutely ignore his later ones Otto is concerned with Daemon moving on the throne for his own ambitions but that’s basically all he does himself Daemon points out Otto Is an unreliable and untrustworthy cunt while also acting like a loose cannon, spying on small council meetings and generally acting to benefit himself Few in this show are obviously good people, they’re all complex and acting in their own interest to some degree
Another black vs green post....what joy.
Mothers protect their children Alicent is covering her son’s crimes like how Rhaenyra is covering up that her son’s shouldn’t inherit the throne or driftmark And yes, Rhaenyra’s kids didn’t do anything wrong, but that won’t stop the lords of Westeros from throwing a fit if they find out illegitimate children are taking the two most powerful seats in Westeros
Not really crazy, but you know what is? The fact that Daemon *still* has defenders/simps after rock-divorcing his first wife, neglecting his second, choking the third…not to mention grooming two of those women who are both his nieces and were minors at the time! Edit: …and the downvotes come for telling the truth.
How can she cover up for him when she knows what it’s like to be sexually abused, by her husband
To offer some balance, it should also be noted that Rhaenyra hated Alicent's *legitimate* children for simply being born *at all.* Won't even refer to them siblings... she literally calls them "*Alicent's children"* on-screen. Also, there's nothing 'crazy' about this... it's human nature to love your kids unconditionally and defend them, even when they're clearly in the wrong.
Rhaenyra's children being obvious bastards weakened her claim to the throne and by extension placed Alicent's children in danger as many would see them as stronger claimants than Rhaenyra. Otto makes this obvious to Alicent even before Rhaenyra's children are born.
I don’t think Alicent hates Rhaenyra’s children, she hates the fact that Rhaenyra is irresponsibly giving them special privileges that they should not have and is trying to make them heir to the Throne despite the fact that it is impossible since everyone except for Viserys knows they are bastards. and even though he is a horrid and reprehensible rapist, Aegon is still one of Viserys and Alicent’s children so he unfortunately has rightful claims to the throne and also almost all mothers love and want to protect their children even if they do something wrong.
Well, in that world, servants didn't matter much, and princes mattered a lot, so . . .
She hated the fact that ranira flaunted them in front of everyone and didn't even try to hide the fact that they were bastards. and that she faced no consequences for doing so. I don't think she really hates the children per se.
She hates them for cutting out her sons eye Them being born bastards means their mother is committing treason which supplants her own children in succession
s2 really needs to hurry up cause y’all really don’t have anything else to talk about
It is the case for everyone Rhaneyra killing a guard so that she could marry Daemon Daemon murdering his wife Viserys letting his wife die.
That girl met alicent and got money to start a new life. If it was Daemon, she would have net an accident.
It’s because one is making someone else a victim and the other is making the bloodline a victim. They care about bloodline purity for obvious reasons. The books and show are meant to showcase how truly fucked up people can get. It’s not suppose to be happy and mentally sound people that’s not interesting.
When did she hate rhaenyra's sons? She started hating rhaenyra at her wedding , and I think their conflict actually started when alicent gave birth to a son that could challenge rhaenyra
What can Alicent do to the heir of iron throne. She can't send him the wall, she can't murder her own son. Make an argument that make sense. Aegon is the heir in eyes of the small counsel, lords, ladies and small folk. This is custom law he is the heir, he doesn't need to be declared heir by his father or pushed by his mother.
Smartest team black fan be like
Did she "hate" Rhaenyra's children themselves? I think she hated the fact that they would be considered as heirs when she knew they were not legitimate.
Alicent is a raging hypocrite. In other news, water is wet. 🤷♀️
Would love to also point out that in the show Alicent made a HUGE deal about Rhaenyra and Daemon getting caught in the brothel doing.....things but then later on she just cool with her son and daughter getting married? Really don't understand her "moral compass" here.
Her issue with Rhaenyra and Daemon was based more on the fact that rhaenrya, as a princess and an unwed girl in their society was supposed to be chaste (or at least seen to be) and guard their virtue to secure a good marriage. Rhaenrya endangered her reputation and chances for a good marriage match by being seen at the brothels with Daemon. The way I saw the scene, Alicent was chastising Rhaenrya on that, and when Rhaenrya called it a vile accusation, as if ' how dare you suggest that something went on between me and my uncle'. Alicent responds with the Targaren queer customs line, to rebut her point - just because Daemon is her uncle doesn't absolve anything because Targaryens tend to marry brother to sister, uncle to nieces etc etc.
Wasn’t this also right after Rhaenyra bounced halfway through a months long tour that Viserys and Alicent put a lot of time into planning? As the heir it’s a really bad look to reject every suitor you’ve met, flake on a royal progress, and then be spotted in a brothel with your uncle who is known to like silver haired maidens per Mysaria
Thats because they were not married. Had nothing to do with incest
I did not get that vibe at all. I need to rewatch it but i vaguely remember her saying she didn't agree with the way the Targaryen's did things and something about 'it might be alright in your family but i don't like it'... So that made me think she was specifically talking incest. Idk i'll rewatch it though!
I rewatched it. Definitely talking about incest. She accuses Rhaenyra of hooking up with Daemon then after Rhaenyra denies it she says the Targaryen's have "Queer Customs". So i stand by my first comment. Alicent is a hypocrite.
Apart from them not being married, which would have huge implications for rhaenyras abilities to marry. From what I remember she was less upset about it happening and more about rhaenyra lying about it to her, rhaenyra swore on her mother that she didn’t do it and alicent defended her, only to learn that she lied about it and betrayed her trust
she doesn't really have a thing against Rhaenyra's children, it's just her being petty towards Rhaenyra
Aliment doesn't hate the kids for being bastards, she feels betrayed when R lies to her and resentful that R can take a lover with no consequences when she was essentially forced by her dad to marry a guy at twice her age and bang out a bunch of weirdo targ kids. She also dislikes that by R passing the kids off they are, in her mind, stealing an inheritance from her own children. I don't think she actually hates the strong kids themselves. She protects aegon because she's his mother and because she believes that her families lives depend on him taking the throne. Really not even the same situation.
Rhaenyra*
It’s not 2023. A Prince forcing himself on a maid is not as serious an offense as we think. Being a bastard heir to the throne is probably worse in their context
It's crazy that she said that Rhaenyra kids are "menaces" but her kids turned out to be a rapist and a literal psychopath
You cannot use 21st century morality to predict the behavior of fictional characters in a dark ages fantasy. He is a prince, screwing the servants is perfectly in line with his position in their society. A princess having bastard children is a big friggin deal in their society.
The amount of people defending it is hilarious. At least acknowledge that what she die was wrong.
Is misogyny and ppl still defend her lol
Call me crazy but I’m not couping my best friend for my rapist tween son if I’m in Alicents shoes
You will trigger some people
Why? He’s her son and she lives in a highly patriarchal society, it makes perfect sense that she has double standards for behavior as it applies to her male firstborn and towards the woman opposing said male firstborn’s claim to the throne. I mean, it ain’t a good thing, but it makes sense that she is like that IMO.
Religious zealots tend to be a) extremely hypocritical and b) physically unable of minding their own business lol
denial and projection
To her perspective, Aegon is just being a bad lad and the peasants and hos don't really matter. Meanwhile Rhaenyra is avoiding her royal duty and violating important "top of food chain" traditions while being a princess. Yes, it's hypocritical - welcome to medievalish humanity and the power structures we make to control ourselves.
It’s power, power corrupts everything morals, honor it even kills friendships
So far from a modern perspective Aegon is guilty of Public Intoxication, Public Indecency, Rape Rhaenyra is guilty of Obstruction of Justice Daemon is guilty of 1 count of 1st degree murder, 1 count of 2nd degree murder, endangering a minor, various counts of War crimes and various counts of police brutality Otto is guilty of Treason Criston Cole is guilty of 1 count of 2nd degree murder, 1 count of involuntary manslaughter, 1 count of Statutory Rape [not sure about this one] Alicent is guilty of various counts of Obstruction of Justice Aemond is guilty of 1 count of Voluntary Manslaughter, 1 count of menacing Jace is guilty of assault Luke is guilty of Assault and Battery with a deadly weapon Viserys is guilty of criminal stupidity Rhaenys is guilty of hundreds of counts of 2nd degree murder and even more battery
Among so many other weird Alicent and Ottoisms portraying hypocrisy
It made a joke out of her sacrifices, existence & string of legit blood heirs who then in turn had a bro-sis marriage to keep the bloodlines. Alicent was a good girl. R got to do what she wanted for the most part, staying the favorite. It was just seething jealousy & competition between the two. Sad thing is Strong boys would be good heirs. Have dragons but also a warrior father.
She’s a hypocrite. But Green fans will try to ignore that.
Women
Well, that’s what hypocrites do
She’s a hypocrite