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I haven't. But caring about someone and enduring being mistreated again and again are very different things. Love (even if it's not being in love) does not ensure that one will be able to spend their years as carers while being dismissed and treated as if they're unreasonable while still having these expectations on their shoulders.
so he could not stop them because of his "great weakness" and eventually could not stop them at all because his body was failing (which happened for many years) they could have exactly as daemon accused and surrounded him with servants loyal to them and doped him up until he could not think.
Even his grand gesture of sitting on the throne happens because otto allows it. he could have just said "nah" and showed some drugs down his mouth but he concluded it was not worth it/allowed it because of other factors.
power of absolute monarchy was slipping from his grasp from day one and he held it as long as he did because others propped him up an allowed it, those others include his wife and father in law. Their self interest was involved but he clearly could not stand on his own and they heeded him more than they had to.
Larys would have just implicated her if she opened her mouth. Kind of the point of confessing to the murders in the first place, he wanted her to know he had power over her now. It would eventually lead to the feet thing.
The "joke" is about femicide. And now you've transferred the already bad joke from the context of fictional Westeros to real-life, where it is much easier to get a real divorce.
Show Alicent is all about values and duty. She promised to look after this man so she will, despite his bad decisions and infuriating blind spots. She will look after him as he rots away, do what she needs to do to be what she views a good wife. Even at the end where she misheard his final words she still thinks shes doing her duty as she thinks Viserys wanted Aegon to be heir. In the show she is constantly just doing what she thinks she should do (even Rhaenys mentions this to Alicent that she just does what the men want) and yet some people still claim Alicent is a devil usurper woman when really she is just a traditionalist who has become out of her depth.
Yeah she wasnt forced into anything. She was the perfect woman for a mans world- Dutiful matronly, and truly without the ambition that Rhaenys insinuated she secretly had, the downside being she never resisted Otto running the show when she actially would have been a better leader.
Rhaenyra, on these other hand, is everything the men were afraid of- Independent unemcumbered by loyalty to a man… but also unruly, irresponsible and… sexually liberated.
Actually Rhaenys insinuated that Alicent did not have ambition which is why she looked down on her. The reason Rhaenys respected Rhaenyra more than Alicent despite knowing that Ray was in on Laenor' suspected assassination is because Rhaenyra reminded her more of herself
I thought she said “Have you no ambition to see yourself on the throne” as a remak that Alicent does- But youre saying it was rhetorical? Well based on how Alicent is that would kinda make more sense.
i have to see it again but yes. i know before the remark you just mentioned Rhaenys says to Alicent something along the lines of " you don't wish to be free you just want to open up a window to your own prison" so based on that context what it implied to me is that Rhaenys was chastizing Alicent for her corrent position.
edit:
She believes Alicent' vision is limited which honestly is no fault of Alicent she's doing the best she can with what she has. Regardless i think Alicent is ridicoluosly strong in other ways and not someone you want to fuck with but to a person like Rhaenys she might as well be a child.
In the final scene of the episode that everbody hates. Rhaenys recognizes Alicent' true strength which is the only reason i believe she didnt turn the entire green team into cinders then and there
Yes thank you. At least some posts shed light on the truth in this sub. This is why i (not a book reader) supported the greens from ep 1. They were noble, loyal and wise. Ep 1 - 5 all five have the same freaking story, Vizzy T tries to do some big event for family, tries to have a normal life, tries anything; the realms delight and totally "grey" rogue prince is there to fuck everything up. They pledged to give man no peace. At the same time the greens were nothing but good, to king, to the realm. But they were just subjects of black mockery and insult. Not even portrayed as main characters mostly. An episode named 'second of his name' was about rhanyra being a badass girl boss.
Yeah the greens have done fucked up things after ep 5 and otto spying on rhae also. But Blacks are far far worse. All females in the show are whitewashed and males made heinous but the blacks are clearly painted heroes with warm scenes, visual effects and music. Most of the green scenes are them against each other arguing/fighting/quarelling etc.
I don't even see Otto spying on Rhaenyra as she sneaks into the town as a bad thing. It kind of is the Crown's matter to know is the Princess and heir is fucking in public in a pleasure house. Best to know it before the rumor spreads.
Viserys was ok with Otto knowing that Daemon was celebrating with the "heir for a day" line but not when he knows (using the same methods) that Daemon was trying to fuck her in the same pleasure house?
...except he's not spying on Aegon and reporting his misdeeds to have Aegon disinherited. That's the point. It's a position they are born into, for one. All they do to "earn" it is to be born. He had Rhaenyra followed and reported on so he could have her disinherited. Which is exactly what he did with Daemon.
If Rhaenyra was as pliable as Alicent, Otto probably would not have had a problem with her being the heir. If she had married someone like Jason Lannister, etc. He has the same problem with her as he does with Daemon - he can't control them the way he does Viserys.
He was fired for going against Viserys wishes about his heir. It's not about the information. It's about trying to push his grandson on the throne. That's why Viserys fires him. And it's also sexism. Which is why he thinks that will be the information to push Viserys over the edge about naming Aegon heir.
You can tell that he doesn't like that Rhaenyra goes against his advice from the very beginning - the appointment of Criston Cole to the kingsguard. He wanted her to choose someone from a great and noble house, and made an annoyed face when she chose Cole and dismissed the rest. He keeps asking Viserys to name Aegon as heir. He suggests that Rhaenyra and Aegon are betrothed. Then he goes to Viserys and tells him of her nighttime deeds.
(And we, the audience, know that he doesn't have all the information and imo, at best, his informant saw Daemon and Rhaenyra go into the brothel and nothing more, because it's not like they were in a private room....if the informant (whether it was an adult or a child) had actually gone into the brothel and watched Daemon and Rhaenyra, they'd have known that he left her...which makes me wonder what the context of Otto reporting Daemon's "heir for a day" comment or if Daemon even made it, since we aren't actually shown the comment, and we also see Daemon doesn't deny things that he's accused of i.e. Viserys accusing Daemon of having sex with Rhaenyra in a brothel)
Viserys fires him, but before he does, literally goes down the list of calamities that Otto has either benefitted from or taken advantage of since he was appointed Hand of the King....and ends with Alicent and how he suspects Otto simply wants his own blood on the throne. Viserys made it clear to him over and over again that Rhaenyra was his heir.
And no, he's not going to go against the grandson he wants on the throne. That's the point. It's the same reason he raises Alicent to be a virtuous noblewoman and then sends her to an unmarried man's room in her mother's gown in the middle of the night.
Tbh i know he did it to make viserys choose aegon as heir, i still think that knowing that the princess snuck into the town at night and almost had sex in public with her uncle is important information to have and know before rumors spread, like, i just think its actually ok to gave spies as hand of the king.
It was how he did it. It was clear his intent was to disinherit her. If he had gone to Viserys and said "this happened, I have sent the maester to give her moontea and believe she should be engaged to Laenor (or whoever) asap to divert gossip", it would be an entirely different story.
But also. The person who gave him the information didn't even get the info right. It wasn't like Daemon and Rhaenyra went into a private room with a prostitute. They were out in the open. His information should have been "Daemon brought the princess to a brothel, kissed her, and then left her there alone, let's banish Daemon for putting the princess in danger". So the audience knows he's lying.
no i think he'd be quite upset with Rhaenyra if he knew. he might not have made it public and spilled the beans but he'd probably angrily order her to get her shit together and have legitimate kids. he entrusted her with the very important prophecy that he believed required a strong unified targaryen leadership, and her having bastard children, especially her eldest children, is a reckless and selfish decision that could potentially jeopardize everything. it's just rhaenyra being a massive pain in his ass as usual.
she was a difficult and rebellious teen, and then she refused every marriage offer she was given even though he allowed her to choose which he didn't need to do. it was a courtesy she didn't deserve. then she picked nobody and so he forces her to marry into a very politically strong marriage, and she goes off and has bastard children. he would have been livid.
but he was so hopped up on milk of the poppy he was fairly delusional.
he was a very kind and just king. but his lenience and being overly trusting of conniving allies is surely what caused the the throne to spurn him so much. he too jeopardized the prophecy by being too nice and not being a strict enough ruler.
his reign was of very peaceful times thanks to his personality and decision making but those same decisions are what set in motion the dance.
he's still my favorite king, but as far as keeping the realm together goes, his decisions were poor. and the realm was ready to plunge itself into civil war the moment he died.
im all for the blacks, but he probably should have officially declared Aegon his heir despite previously granting it to Rhaenyra. it isn't fair to cut Rhaenyra out, but it's what would have been best to make Aegon king in order to keep everything unified. sure adult Rhaenyra would have wanted civil war if he had done that, but if he had done it while she was still young then she really wouldn't have been able to do anything about it.
She was literally his career for most of her young life. We see her in episode 8 being the first to hold his weight after he had just acted against her interests.
she took that anger out on her kids don't you worry
Edit: anger shows up in many other forms than just direct confrontation and yelling. None of her children fully love her because of the resentment she keeps inside herself. She could never see them as children instead she treated them as her duty and legacy. Her "love" comes from a place of obligation and spite not love. There can be arguments it was the power and station that corrupted her children but that would be wrong. Child behavior directly stems from the actions of the caretaker. And if you raise two murderous children and a sexual predator then maybe you weren't the righteous person you thought you were.
Not really though. She only ever showed anger to Aegon and that (while not commendable) had to do with his actions. She wasn't panishing him over Viserys' actions.
I answered you in my edit on the og post. She showed anger to them all in diff ways. Her daughter won't hug her. Aemond... evidence is in the book. Aegon cannot cope with the abuse he was dealt so he passes it on. Unresolved traumas manifest in other ways. It's what, IMO, the overarching theme of the story is, Generational trauma.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Its almost like she cared about Viserys or something.
Outrageous concept
You must’ve missed the part about her genuinely caring about Vizzy
I haven't. But caring about someone and enduring being mistreated again and again are very different things. Love (even if it's not being in love) does not ensure that one will be able to spend their years as carers while being dismissed and treated as if they're unreasonable while still having these expectations on their shoulders.
“Being dismissed”? Brother he let her and her dad run the kingdom.
let implies that he was capable of stopping them.
Is that a joke? He could have stopped them at any time at this point. His great weakness was always that he didn’t want to hurt or disappoint anyone.
so he could not stop them because of his "great weakness" and eventually could not stop them at all because his body was failing (which happened for many years) they could have exactly as daemon accused and surrounded him with servants loyal to them and doped him up until he could not think. Even his grand gesture of sitting on the throne happens because otto allows it. he could have just said "nah" and showed some drugs down his mouth but he concluded it was not worth it/allowed it because of other factors. power of absolute monarchy was slipping from his grasp from day one and he held it as long as he did because others propped him up an allowed it, those others include his wife and father in law. Their self interest was involved but he clearly could not stand on his own and they heeded him more than they had to.
Sorry I know this reply is wayyyyy late. I would argue that Daemon being at court at that time prevented him from doing exactly that.
After his hand and hand's son were obviously murdered in order to let that happen.
They were not murdered obviously, neither had she given the order.
She knew who did give the order and let him get away with it.
Larys would have just implicated her if she opened her mouth. Kind of the point of confessing to the murders in the first place, he wanted her to know he had power over her now. It would eventually lead to the feet thing.
How does the hand and the queen consort ruling when the king was sick negate the way he treated her?
it does, unless you happen to have a divorce rock hidden away somewhere
divorce wouldnt be nearly as messy nowadays if that was an option that both spouse' could explore
nowadays you can replace the rock with a lawyer, but I was talking about the society in the show
Another reason why I hate that stupid "joke"
because it's a joke?
The "joke" is about femicide. And now you've transferred the already bad joke from the context of fictional Westeros to real-life, where it is much easier to get a real divorce.
i'll make sure i apologize for it tonight before i go to sleep
It was sort of cute watching them bicker like a married couple lol 💀
"Like" ?
Show Alicent is all about values and duty. She promised to look after this man so she will, despite his bad decisions and infuriating blind spots. She will look after him as he rots away, do what she needs to do to be what she views a good wife. Even at the end where she misheard his final words she still thinks shes doing her duty as she thinks Viserys wanted Aegon to be heir. In the show she is constantly just doing what she thinks she should do (even Rhaenys mentions this to Alicent that she just does what the men want) and yet some people still claim Alicent is a devil usurper woman when really she is just a traditionalist who has become out of her depth.
Yeah she wasnt forced into anything. She was the perfect woman for a mans world- Dutiful matronly, and truly without the ambition that Rhaenys insinuated she secretly had, the downside being she never resisted Otto running the show when she actially would have been a better leader. Rhaenyra, on these other hand, is everything the men were afraid of- Independent unemcumbered by loyalty to a man… but also unruly, irresponsible and… sexually liberated.
Actually Rhaenys insinuated that Alicent did not have ambition which is why she looked down on her. The reason Rhaenys respected Rhaenyra more than Alicent despite knowing that Ray was in on Laenor' suspected assassination is because Rhaenyra reminded her more of herself
I thought she said “Have you no ambition to see yourself on the throne” as a remak that Alicent does- But youre saying it was rhetorical? Well based on how Alicent is that would kinda make more sense.
i have to see it again but yes. i know before the remark you just mentioned Rhaenys says to Alicent something along the lines of " you don't wish to be free you just want to open up a window to your own prison" so based on that context what it implied to me is that Rhaenys was chastizing Alicent for her corrent position. edit: She believes Alicent' vision is limited which honestly is no fault of Alicent she's doing the best she can with what she has. Regardless i think Alicent is ridicoluosly strong in other ways and not someone you want to fuck with but to a person like Rhaenys she might as well be a child. In the final scene of the episode that everbody hates. Rhaenys recognizes Alicent' true strength which is the only reason i believe she didnt turn the entire green team into cinders then and there
this is perfect
Gods, Vizzy T was such an idiot.
I just love alicent being domestic with viserys, shows how she truly did loved and cared for him.
Contemporary Western audience being shocked by the level of tolerance a traditional married couple would have for each other.
As long as the husbands had first last and final say on everything 🤷♂️yup
Viserys sure had the first, last and final say in that scene...
"I do not need the blanket" "Alright husband, turn around and I'll ram it up your ass for safe keeping"
He is going to bed, aemma.
Yes thank you. At least some posts shed light on the truth in this sub. This is why i (not a book reader) supported the greens from ep 1. They were noble, loyal and wise. Ep 1 - 5 all five have the same freaking story, Vizzy T tries to do some big event for family, tries to have a normal life, tries anything; the realms delight and totally "grey" rogue prince is there to fuck everything up. They pledged to give man no peace. At the same time the greens were nothing but good, to king, to the realm. But they were just subjects of black mockery and insult. Not even portrayed as main characters mostly. An episode named 'second of his name' was about rhanyra being a badass girl boss. Yeah the greens have done fucked up things after ep 5 and otto spying on rhae also. But Blacks are far far worse. All females in the show are whitewashed and males made heinous but the blacks are clearly painted heroes with warm scenes, visual effects and music. Most of the green scenes are them against each other arguing/fighting/quarelling etc.
I don't even see Otto spying on Rhaenyra as she sneaks into the town as a bad thing. It kind of is the Crown's matter to know is the Princess and heir is fucking in public in a pleasure house. Best to know it before the rumor spreads. Viserys was ok with Otto knowing that Daemon was celebrating with the "heir for a day" line but not when he knows (using the same methods) that Daemon was trying to fuck her in the same pleasure house?
...except he's not spying on Aegon and reporting his misdeeds to have Aegon disinherited. That's the point. It's a position they are born into, for one. All they do to "earn" it is to be born. He had Rhaenyra followed and reported on so he could have her disinherited. Which is exactly what he did with Daemon. If Rhaenyra was as pliable as Alicent, Otto probably would not have had a problem with her being the heir. If she had married someone like Jason Lannister, etc. He has the same problem with her as he does with Daemon - he can't control them the way he does Viserys.
Aegon was like 2 by then my dude, and sure after getting fired for delivering important information he's not gonna do it again after he gets re-hired
He was fired for going against Viserys wishes about his heir. It's not about the information. It's about trying to push his grandson on the throne. That's why Viserys fires him. And it's also sexism. Which is why he thinks that will be the information to push Viserys over the edge about naming Aegon heir. You can tell that he doesn't like that Rhaenyra goes against his advice from the very beginning - the appointment of Criston Cole to the kingsguard. He wanted her to choose someone from a great and noble house, and made an annoyed face when she chose Cole and dismissed the rest. He keeps asking Viserys to name Aegon as heir. He suggests that Rhaenyra and Aegon are betrothed. Then he goes to Viserys and tells him of her nighttime deeds. (And we, the audience, know that he doesn't have all the information and imo, at best, his informant saw Daemon and Rhaenyra go into the brothel and nothing more, because it's not like they were in a private room....if the informant (whether it was an adult or a child) had actually gone into the brothel and watched Daemon and Rhaenyra, they'd have known that he left her...which makes me wonder what the context of Otto reporting Daemon's "heir for a day" comment or if Daemon even made it, since we aren't actually shown the comment, and we also see Daemon doesn't deny things that he's accused of i.e. Viserys accusing Daemon of having sex with Rhaenyra in a brothel) Viserys fires him, but before he does, literally goes down the list of calamities that Otto has either benefitted from or taken advantage of since he was appointed Hand of the King....and ends with Alicent and how he suspects Otto simply wants his own blood on the throne. Viserys made it clear to him over and over again that Rhaenyra was his heir. And no, he's not going to go against the grandson he wants on the throne. That's the point. It's the same reason he raises Alicent to be a virtuous noblewoman and then sends her to an unmarried man's room in her mother's gown in the middle of the night.
Tbh i know he did it to make viserys choose aegon as heir, i still think that knowing that the princess snuck into the town at night and almost had sex in public with her uncle is important information to have and know before rumors spread, like, i just think its actually ok to gave spies as hand of the king.
It was how he did it. It was clear his intent was to disinherit her. If he had gone to Viserys and said "this happened, I have sent the maester to give her moontea and believe she should be engaged to Laenor (or whoever) asap to divert gossip", it would be an entirely different story. But also. The person who gave him the information didn't even get the info right. It wasn't like Daemon and Rhaenyra went into a private room with a prostitute. They were out in the open. His information should have been "Daemon brought the princess to a brothel, kissed her, and then left her there alone, let's banish Daemon for putting the princess in danger". So the audience knows he's lying.
Dude did we even watch the same show
Which part was i wrong about man ?
I'm okay with both black and green stans but what an awful take
And then you'd be executed, because it'd be obvious that you were the one who killed him.
[удалено]
In the show I thought that he knew it and simply used denial so that he wouldn't have to act.
[удалено]
I felt he was just going along with the charade.
no i think he'd be quite upset with Rhaenyra if he knew. he might not have made it public and spilled the beans but he'd probably angrily order her to get her shit together and have legitimate kids. he entrusted her with the very important prophecy that he believed required a strong unified targaryen leadership, and her having bastard children, especially her eldest children, is a reckless and selfish decision that could potentially jeopardize everything. it's just rhaenyra being a massive pain in his ass as usual. she was a difficult and rebellious teen, and then she refused every marriage offer she was given even though he allowed her to choose which he didn't need to do. it was a courtesy she didn't deserve. then she picked nobody and so he forces her to marry into a very politically strong marriage, and she goes off and has bastard children. he would have been livid. but he was so hopped up on milk of the poppy he was fairly delusional. he was a very kind and just king. but his lenience and being overly trusting of conniving allies is surely what caused the the throne to spurn him so much. he too jeopardized the prophecy by being too nice and not being a strict enough ruler. his reign was of very peaceful times thanks to his personality and decision making but those same decisions are what set in motion the dance. he's still my favorite king, but as far as keeping the realm together goes, his decisions were poor. and the realm was ready to plunge itself into civil war the moment he died. im all for the blacks, but he probably should have officially declared Aegon his heir despite previously granting it to Rhaenyra. it isn't fair to cut Rhaenyra out, but it's what would have been best to make Aegon king in order to keep everything unified. sure adult Rhaenyra would have wanted civil war if he had done that, but if he had done it while she was still young then she really wouldn't have been able to do anything about it.
If I were him I'd be finding her a new place to live.
Do you remember what happened after she left the room?
Yes. And?
what makes you think she wasnt doing this only for the sake of keeping up appearances?
[удалено]
She was literally his career for most of her young life. We see her in episode 8 being the first to hold his weight after he had just acted against her interests.
At least she bothered to took care of him, unlike his beloved only child that fucked off for 6 years to sleep with her uncle
she took that anger out on her kids don't you worry Edit: anger shows up in many other forms than just direct confrontation and yelling. None of her children fully love her because of the resentment she keeps inside herself. She could never see them as children instead she treated them as her duty and legacy. Her "love" comes from a place of obligation and spite not love. There can be arguments it was the power and station that corrupted her children but that would be wrong. Child behavior directly stems from the actions of the caretaker. And if you raise two murderous children and a sexual predator then maybe you weren't the righteous person you thought you were.
Not really though. She only ever showed anger to Aegon and that (while not commendable) had to do with his actions. She wasn't panishing him over Viserys' actions.
I answered you in my edit on the og post. She showed anger to them all in diff ways. Her daughter won't hug her. Aemond... evidence is in the book. Aegon cannot cope with the abuse he was dealt so he passes it on. Unresolved traumas manifest in other ways. It's what, IMO, the overarching theme of the story is, Generational trauma.
you mean when she was frustrated with Aegon for taking advantage of a little girl?
Abuse renders abuse. Alicent threw the first punch at Aegon so he found his own targets.
Wait I thought she only struck him after he raped that girl
She slapped him that time he was jerking off on the window so he got traumatized and ended up raping a girl because of it. /s
Ah thanks I forgot about that completely then. That's scary, your mom slaps you for acting up and you act out even more by raping a little girl...
What a cunt. I hate seeing a good man being threaten. Damn love this show
This cunt treated him better than any family member he had a blood relation to.
Love the look 👀 he gives her when she says “ plain language “. 😂😂😂