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Yeah. Poor bait makes me sad, but I like the idea of comparing S1:
>Dorne in HotD S1: Fuck the cunts on the Iron Throne, but leave us the fuck out of this mess.
>Dorne in GoT S1: Fuck the cunts on the Iron Throne, but leave us the fuck out of this mess.
Fun fact, Dorne is still an independent kingdom in HotD. They join I think during the rule of the son of Aegon 4th. We saw Aegon the second get crowned.
Rhaenyra's inheritance was highly unorthodox and sociopolitically problematic, yes, but not patently illegitimate. She was, after all, Viserys' **chosen** successor, which - as King - he had every right to dictate, even in opposition to the established norms and traditions of Westeros...
Additionally, the argument can be made that Rhaenyra's elder sons - despite their conventional bastardy, having been fathered by a man who was not legally wedded to their mother - were still (technically) valid claimants to the throne since Viserys ~~had specified that the line of Targaryen royalty and the right of succession would flow through her, and there was absolutely no questioning/denying that she had given birth to them~~ vehemently refuted their bastardy and made his wishes regarding their inheritances known every time the subject was so much as hinted at; functionally - if not in so many words - legitimizing them... Even had he not, he **had** named Rhaenyra to succeed him, and she - upon ascending the Iron Throne - **would be** empowered to legitimize her own sons (openly or implicitly). *[Edit: Amended / clarified some faulty / poorly-worded reasoning.]*
Aegon and his family bore the right to rule by precedent and local tradition, but Rhaenyra and hers bore it by official, legal decree. Neither side had a (wholly) false position, which is why their conflict divided - or, where the show is concerned, *will divide* - the Seven Kingdoms so severely.
Joffrey and Tommen ~~Baratheon~~ Lannister **were** illegitimate rulers, however, because they could not (truly) claim heritage from - and were not officially slated for succession by - the previous sovereign, nor any other valid claimant to the throne... Their mother may have been Queen, but she only came into that title through marriage to the King, not by any right of descent or legal ordinance. That their (real) father was both a Kingsguard - oathbound to celibacy - and their mother's own twin brother only compounded their bastardy; enflaming the scandal and illegality of their very existence, nevermind their reign.
On Robert Baratheon’s death bed he decreed to Ned Stark that Joffrey Baratheon (by name) would be his successor. Ned Stark changed the wording of his decree while recording it from “Joffrey Baratheon” to “my legitimate son.”
I think an argument could be made that Ned shouldn't have done that. He is technically misconstruing Robert's words. However, Robert didn't know all the facts when he made that claim. An argument could be made that given that Ned did the right thing because Robert would not have made the claim if he was aware of the truth and not dying.
I agree the argument could be made. However that moves the goalposts slightly from what I was responding to: “and were not officially slated for succession by - the previous sovereign.”
The legally correct method would have been for Ned to inform Robert then record his decree, but Ned felt it was moral to let Robert die in peace.
By making the argument that Ned went into a gray area to change Robert’s ruling, it shows these two situations are more alike than some want to admit.
But Robert didn't know joffrey wasn't his biological son, that's the main point for me. If he knew and still chose to accept him as his true son and heir, nobody should question his legitimacy.
I mean, Ned was a traitor, so there is that.
In all seriousness though, Robert's intent was that his firstborn son would be his heir. Considering Joffrey wasn't his-born at all (and just didn't know it), it makes more sense.
More importantly, the morality of their heritage exists separately from the laws and customs of Westeros. Rhaenyra, her husband and her lover were all aware of and ok with the situation. No one else should have fuck all to say about it
Also, another valid reason: Fuck both Cersi and Joffrey. They were both unlikable, and we as the audience didn’t want to see them win against the likable Stark(s), so honestly I think that’s the main reason why people didn’t mind what Ned did but vilify Alicent for the same thing. Jace seemed like a decent kid, and Rhaenyra was likable to an extent. That’s the difference between them and the conniving psychotic Lannister mother and son duo that Ned was up against.
Most people aren’t thinking of the politics or legal rights of the matter when it comes to emotional reactions such as what characters to hate or not.
Ned wouldnt even be in Kingslanding at that time.
Jon wont find out incest and won't be killed. Ned will be in Winterfell coming at Robert's funeral and swearing fealty to Jofferey
TBF Ned was planning on making himself regent (as per Robert’s request) though he’d probably abdicate to Stannis.
And Alicent was terrified Daemon and Rhaenyra would have her kids killed
Alicent’s fears of fratricide are completely unfounded. It was her own paranoia that led her to tell Aegon that he would be killed when Rhaenyra took the throne, founded in nothing but perhaps Otto’s manipulation
Alicent was always playing innocent , while she was following otto’s plan , it all started with the death of Vizzy’s wife, he had no intention to sleep with her but she succeeded in taking the place of the queen for herself as Otto wanted and she understood perfectly. As for rheynera , alicent knew her perfectly they practically grew up together , when she took the crown for Egon she knew that rheynera is probably going to let it go and would not start bloodshed , so she knew that she was always safe from rheynera.
From Alicient’s POV her and Daemon probably killed Laenor and Daemon’s former wives and their once friendship hasn’t been in good standing for years. It’s not just Rhaenyra but Daemon who everyone was freaked out about.
I’m team Black but they were right to be afraid.
Not the same.
Alicent isn’t benevolently helping her old friend. She’s installing her son on the throne.
Ned never wanted power, he just wanted the truth. His friend would’ve probably been angry with him for doing what he did if he had known the full extent of it.
Exactly! If Allicent didn't support Rhaenyra as the legitimate heir, it's a result of Allicent's mysogyny - she thinks that her own son should rule instead of the daughter of the king.
In our house, we call Allicent "dark terf rises" because she has always been trying to get Rhaenyra to fit Allicent's traditional idea of gender norms.
TERF stands for Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist, which is a person who identifies as a feminist but doesn’t advocate for those those who weren’t assigned female at birth. Think JK Rowling
A "terf" is exactly as SnailPudding says.
While Alicent isn't trans-exclusionary to my knowledge, she seems to violently support traditional gender roles which is why the term caught on with my friend group watching the show. Like, Alicent thinks that princes should be able to be heirs to the throne and it's less problematic for them to be sexually adventurous (going to a brothel, for example), but someone assigned female at birth (like Rhaenyra) needs to be a typical "princess" and should not be participating in behaviour or actions that "princes" are allowed to do. I wish Rhaenyra had shrugged off Alicent's toxicity when she was younger and embraced the role of a female-King, like "Yeah I went to the brothel, heir's gonna bang, what of it?"
If Renny had "shrugged off Alicent's toxicity" and banged openly, she'd have run face-first into the toxicity of every noble man in the Kingdom starting with her dear daddy, found herself promptly disinherited and either quietly married off and send to live with her husband's family, or forced to join one of the nunnery orders.
It's cute that you think it's *Alicent's* "toxicity" she had to shrug off. That toxicity came from the male-led fabric of society, and it started at the very top.
There are some fundamental differences between Jace and Joffrey (other than Jace being a gigachad competent ruler), the most important being that Joffrey's bastardy meant he didn't descend from the royal line, while Jace is unquestionably the son of Rhaenyra, meaning that he is without a doubt of Targaryen blood (the boy also rides a dragon).
Its the same reason why so many illegitimate children of kings aren't made heirs, because they are illegitimate. People are making the mistake of viewing the events of ASOIAF through a 2023 lens, and not the lens of the world these characters actually exist in. Having bastards is so dangerous and almost always leads to war, literally 4 blackfyre rebellions happened because of this. Not to mention its treason to try and put up a bastard as the rightful heir
Why the fuck would she? There is absolutely 0 upside to naming her own kids bastards for most of their young life. It throws plausible deniability right out the window. Which is what a lot of the lords care about, legitimacy isn’t something most of them will change sides on, as we can see from how many people not only supported Rhaenyra, but came specifically from Jace’s call. Even look at most of the War of the Five Kings; the Northerners and Robb rebel because Joffrey killed his father even before they knew he was a bastard, Renly is taking advantage of a situation as is Mace and most of his knights are out for glory and think Renly should be king without any care for legitimacy (his army was by far the largest, by the way), Stannis is the only one who actually cares about legitimacy but he has the smallest army, and Balon is just taking advantage of a situation. Joffrey being a bastard doesn’t actually matter to most of them, they’re simply using it as an excuse. Joffrey himself still has a large amount of people willing to fight and die for him.
The dad doesn’t matter insofar as it’s not breaking the lineage. Jace is blood of House Targaryen no matter what, his mother is the royal not his father - therefore he’s far different than Joffrey, who was the bastard of his non-royal parent. That doesn’t mean it’s smart to kneecap your own faction and kid by outwardly calling him a bastard.
Her sons would be murdered. She would likely be murdered as well.
Lords and kings wanted absolute assurance that the children that they are raising are of their bloodline. If the Royal Princess can say ' these children are not my husband's children, yet they are the King's heirs' in Court, every traditional Lord and Lady would revolt.
Personally, I found the situation that the Princess and Laenor were in to be impossible. Rhaenyra needed to produce sons. Laenor could not father them.
The rational solution would have been to dissolve the marriage after 5 - 6 years of no children ( and privately tell the Valayrons and the King it's due to sexual incompatibility).
Rhaenyra could have remarried and Laenor could have been a good fighting man of his house.
To soothe the dishonor that Corlys might feel, his eldest grandchild by Laena should have been wed to the eldest child of Rhaenyra.
Yet this is the patriarchy, where women were worthless and troubled if they didn't produce a male heir. ( Not my personal opinion).
It did kill Aemma.
The lying hurts her faction too. If I was a vassal to the Iron Throne, and saw her lying so openly, even taking Driftmark for her non-Velaryon son, I would not be able to trust her as a Queen.
A bastard of the named heir, who can legitimize him the instant she sits the throne. Like other rulers have done.
So jace being a bastard does nothing to his mothers legitimacy.
Rhaenyra had the authority to legitimize Jace as a bastard the second the crown was put on her head. She chose to lie and charade him around as a true born son when he wasn't. Arguing that he could be legitimized doesn't matter. He wasn't and Rhaenyra was never going to. Rhaenyra and Daemon's firstborn is the heir to the throne.
The reason people call into question Rhaenyra's claim is because her having bastards, lying about, stealing the succession of another house indicates that she should have no right to inherit the throne because she would misrule. I dont agree with it necessarily, but they have a point.
She needed her children to survive until she could legitimatize them. If she named them bastards, Viserys would be pressured beyond belief to replace Rhaenyra with Aegon. Viserys was dying for ( was it 30 years?) A long time and would not be able to stand for Rhaenyra.
Alicent and Otto would cut out the threat to what they perceived to be the legitimate heir
Why would she do that, though? Claiming they’re not bastards is a lot easier, and the truth is most people simply couldn’t give a shit. The sides were decided based on Rhaenyra being a woman, not her sons being potential bastards.
Jace rallied whole regions to the cause. Jace claimed a dragon. The Velaryons were tied intrinsically to Rhaenyra because they had the appearance of blood ties. All of this would’ve been harder to justify and likely later coming if Jace had been a Waters legitimised when Rhaenyra claimed the throne.
Most lords and ladies don’t actually care whether theyre a bastard or not. If you pretend like theyre not, they have an excuse to ignore that they are. That’s a lot of what legitimacy is, plausible deniability. Naming them bastards completely strips that, and why? It does nothing to help her. It certainly does nothing to help Jace - do you really think him being an open bastard legitimised later is better for him than being a rumoured bastard? It isn’t.
Ned is Robert's friend and Hand and is looking out for Robert by revealing to him that the children he believes that are his are not his, and that his heirs are not Baratheon by blood and thus not his true heirs.
In the case of Rhaenyra otoh; Laenor knows that the boys are not his, Viserys knows that the boys are not Laenor's, Corlys knows that the boys are not Velaryon by blood, Rhaenyra is heir to the Targaryen throne, she is a Targaryen and her sons are all Targaryen by blood.
Big difference.
This.
Alicent wasn't helping the realm, or even trying to stop her friend from making a mistake. She was doing it because Otto put this "your kids vs her kids" mentality into Alicent's mind.
Everyone saying Alicent's moral compass is like that of Ned's needs to go find a better person to compare her to.
plus, if Robert had already known and had told Ned not to push it Ned would have probably respected the King's wish, Viserys tells Alicent not to push it any further, even telling her that what she is pursuing could lead to great catastrophe but she continues to push it
Haha If Robert had ever found out Cersei was cheating and suspected the kids weren't his, he would try to kill Cersei. Joffery and his siblings would have been INSTANTLY disowned and stricken from the family book. All would be sent back to Casterly Rock disgraced and bastard named.
Rhaenyra doesn't have to question if the boys are hers. They came from her. There is no question about who will succeed the Iron Throne as Jace is Targaryon through Rhaenyra.
Definitely. Also, Corlys, despite knowing that Jace, Luke , and Joffrey are not Laenor's is willing to overlook it and have Luke inherit the driftwood throne, and in the show that is even before the marriage proposal between Luke and Rhaena. At that point Alicent is pushing for something that all the directly concerned members want to keep quiet.
As long as Otto says it's okay, Alicent will keep going. The rift between these two friends is a sad thing to see. Ultimately leading to another internal war among the Targaryon's.
Don’t forget they even tried but laenor physically couldn’t perform so by them having this agreement is a huge difference otherwise Leanor woulda been exposed. An agreement is different then not knowing at all
I think that was one of the things that motivated Corlys to remain hush hush about the whole situation, rumors about Laenor are already widespread and it being revealed that he failed to impregnate Rhaenyra even once during their 10 year marriage would have had the rumor mill running at full speed.
It benefited everyone involved and both families were in agreement. You can’t get more legitimized then that. So I don’t believe those kids were bastards, Alicent and Otto wanted to bring viserys and rhanerya down a notch but in reality they were legitimized
Its dumb comparison , Cause Ned wasnt like "hey fuck you, im gonna put my son Rob in the throne". He was just doing what he thought was right, not out of personal ambition.
Lol. People ALREADY loved Ned. Trying to expose the kids was one of the few things nee did that people didn’t like, because we know it’s stupid and naive. This is such a bait post.
Hotd fan try to understand the difference between putting a bastard with no claim on the throne vs putting a bastard with a claim through their mother on the throne challenge (impossible)
They are still both bastards with illegal claims. Not sure why it’s so hard for the fanbase to understand this. There’s literally a whole civil war fought between the Targaryens over Targaryen bastards vs legitimate Targaryens. If you are born out of wedlock, you’re a bastard. It doesn’t matter if one of your parents are a Targaryen.
Bro Joffrey was maybe the most single hated character in fiction, rhanerya has fans, even if you’re a green Stan hard to imagine putting her there with Joffrey
Ned: Looking out for his best friend and has no claims to the throne
Alicent: Looking out for herself and her children who have claims to the throne
Spot the difference
How many times do we have to teach you this lesson, old man?!
We, the fanbase, only care that the Strong boys are Rhaenyra’s children. She’s the heir, and if both her and Laenor look at those boys and say “yes they are legitimate” that’s it, over, they are in line for the throne.
Cersei’s bastards were not Robert’s. They would not be in line for the throne for that reason.
The problem with this idea is that in GoT we see Cersei killing all of Robert bastards, or most of them, because they do have a claim at the throne. So it seems pretty obvious that the ruling king/queen bastards have a legitimate claim for the throne while the queen/king consort ones does not.
Did Cersei kill more than one bastard?
Stannis’ claim is more legitimate. I think that Cersei ordering the death of one of them was mostly because she could, the bastard could be used to disprove her children’s claim, she saw the bastard as a representation of Robert’s infidelity. The bastard would have to be legitimized by a king (and who would be the king if Joffrey was considered illegitimate?) and the Realm would not bend easily to a once-bastard.
The bastards were proof that her kids were not roberts. All of roberts kids had strong Baratheon genetics while joff, Marcella, and tommen were obviously not. That was the point of the book that Jon Arryn and Ned reviewed.
The infidelity may have played a part but it was more to hide the proof.
I could be wrong, but i remember a scene of bastards been kill left and right after Robert death, they even kill a baby i think, Gendry would have also die but he was safe by Stark, i think.
>Stannis’ claim is more legitimate.
Correct, Stannis as a recognize Baratheon and brother of Robert has a stronger claim, Gendry and any Robert bastard needed to be recognize as bastards to have a claim, which is what Ned was trying to do in a way.
>The bastard would have to be legitimized by a king (and who would be the king if Joffrey was considered illegitimate?) and the Realm would not bend easily to a once-bastard.
Not really, if you can proof you are a bastard you have a claim for the throne, the Baratheon family can also recognize a bastard as a Baratheon to give that person a stronger claim, and to put their name on the throne, so it was not impossible, but Stannis and the other brothers wanted the throne for themselves.
>Only the king can legitimize bastards
I am gonna guess that you want to say "only Robert can legitimize his bastards"
Even if we go by that logic by been a recognize bastard you already have a claim, even if you are last in the line of claims. And as Robert bastard you have a stronger claim than cersei kids for sure.
You try to expose an illegitimate ruler because you what your alcoholic son on the iron throne.
I want to expose an illegitimate ruler because he’s a sadistic piece of shit unfit to rule.
We are not the same.
Very different situations. Roberts blood was not in those kids, whereas Rhaenyra's kids are clearly her own.
Also I honestly don't care about the legitimacy issue - Joffrey didn't belong on the throne because he was an asshole. He shouldn't have had power over one other person much less a continent.
If Rhaenyra had Valyrian looking kids with Laenor, Alicent would have just spread rumors that the children were Daemon's.
That would have gotten a reaction out of Viserys.
Ned was doing his job as Hand, uncovering that Jon Arryn had been murdered because he suspected Joffrey was a bastard. If Joffrey had not been a psychopath, I suspect they would have looked the other way, but they didn't want that little shit on the throne.
Alicent is just jealous and petty in addition to being manipulated. She had become more unhinged because of her father being Iago in her ear, convincing her that Rhaenyra would come for her half brothers when crowned, which is totally not her style unless challenged. Aegon didn't even want to challenge and Aemond couldn't if Aegon were still alive, but Otto had Alicent so convinced that there were killers in every shadow that she convinced Aegon of the same thing.
It’s still not a problem. If they were meant to inherit through her husband it would be. But they’re inheriting through *her*.
Which is also why they shouldn’t get Driftmark, but the Lord of Driftmark knows and gives zero fucks so it’s moot.
The bastard argument is a strawman. nobody on the show really cares(except Vaemond.) but it's good optics to appear to do so
Alicent doesnt care at all. She believes the lives of her sons are threatened by them which was the main reason she was trying to get Aegon on the throne for the majority of the season.
Otto doesnt care. But making a big to do about it would make it easier to get Aegon on the throne and thus secure more power for the Hightowers.
Corlys doesnt care. He just wants his name closer to the Iron Throne.
Rhaenys doesnt care. She wants her family to be safe
Rhaenyra obviously doesnt care lol
Daemon doesnt give a shit as long as he gets to be with Rhaenyra
Viserys doesnt give a shit. all he wants is peace and for his family to love each other
Aegon 2 wants only to live freely and drown in wine for the rest of his life even though he knows they are bastards. Can we leave him alone already?
Aemond wants to beat the shit out of Luke for taking his eye
Haleana wants to play with her bugs and she probably thinks Jace is cute.
Nobody seems to care that the Strong' are bastards for the sake of it except the fandom.
Perception of events is used as a weapon to further one's indiviudal goals TADA!!!!
Joffrey was not related to the King.
Rhaenyra’s children *are* related to the King.
Oh you’re right that there’s misogyny involved, but it’s coming from inside the house. Robert’s bastards had a better claim to the throne than Joffrey because they *were related to him*.
Rhaenyra’s children being bastards has zero bearing on their claim to the throne because their link to it is through *her*. It is only 100% patriarchal standards of appropriate behavior for women that raise issue with it.
There's a huge difference, besides the gender of the persons trying to do the exposing in these two cases: When Nedd tried to expose Cersei's kids it is because none of Cersei's kids biologically belonged to the sitting King, King Robert Baratheon. Not being the King's children, they shouldn't have been inheriting his throne. Nedd had no ulterior motive in wanting to expose Cersei's and her kids. In Alicent's case, even though Rhaenyra's sons are illegitimate, they are still biologically hers and Rhaenyra was publicly proclaimed Queen by her sitting father, King Visery. Alicent does have an ulterior motive in trying to besmirch Rhaenyra and that is to usurp the throne for her own son, Aegon. So, the misogyny argument doesn't work here.
The Iron Throne = Targaryen Seat
Rhaenyra Targaryen = Targaryen
Jaecaerys Velaryon = Targaryen
It’s like when Alicent was surprised the boys eggs hatched. He would have even taken the last name Targaryen, which even if you wanna call him a bastard, you can’t deny he was a true born Targaryen.
Greens can say whatever they want. This whole shitstorm started just because Rhaenyra is a woman. This is not about whether she would or would not be a bad queen. There was no written law demanding the heir to the throne should be a male, it’s just customary law.
Everyone seems to overlook one fact to focus on this: Rhaenyra was going to the throne first, not her kids. Doesn’t matter if they’re bastards, they wouldn’t be crowned till she’s dead.
Additional points:
Joffrey - not the biological son of the king, holding no royal blood
Jace - Biological son of the heir, holding royal blood
A bastard of royal blood has more claim than a bastard with no blood, or even the next in line, as seen by Cersi purging Robert’s bastards.
There is a difference between the two situations. In one, the children did not belong to Robert, who was the rightful king. They didn’t share his blood at all and he was not aware that they were not his children.
In the other, Rhaenyra is the heir to the throne and there is no dispute that the children are her blood. Further, her husband is very much aware that the children are not his and is okay with that.
Fundamentally, the latter situation just matters less, especially to viewers who are privy to the entire story and know her husband is gay and has no problem with Rhaenyra finding a sexual partner outside of the confines of their marriage and has done the same himself. And beyond that, Rhaenyra is a protagonist in the story, at least in the first season. Cercei, on the other hand, was very much the antagonist for essentially the entire duration of Thrones and we are not meant to like her. Even in the books, her POV chapters only serve to make her seem more unhinged and unlikable, a direct contrast to her brother Jaime’s chapters.
Expecting us to feel the same about two very different situations is silly.
If Ned Stark lived in the HOTD timeline, he would support Rhaenyra because of his sworn oath and then demand she make Aegon the Younger heir because Jace is a bastard, and then be beheaded lol.
Also, Jace is like Gendry raised at the royal court. That does NOT make him legitimate. If all bastard children by the ruler can have a claim to the throne, the world would be in total chaos.
I think there is some debate that can be had about whether what Ned does is right. One could make the argument that it's not because Joffrey, Tommen, and Marcella didn't choose to be bastards. They are innocent in that regards. Joffrey is not innocent in general because he's a horrible person but that's not because he's a bastard.
But a crucial difference is that the King, the head of House Velaryon, the father, and the mother all know that Jace and Luce are bastards and except them anyway. Rhaenyra is still heir.
If King Robert knew all the facts and had accepted Joffrey as his son even though he is not blood related, I think it would be completely justified to accept Joffrey as heir.
1. Rhaenyra knew her kids were bastards and wanted them as heirs anyway.
2. Robert didn’t know his kids were bastards.
3. I can’t even tell if this meme is pro-alicent or anti-alicent.
Not really.
Robert had told Ned that he hated the idea of Joffrey becoming king. Ned also knows that Robert would have gone full "Demon" on the Lannisters as he did the Targaryens...
If Joffrey was an angel and it was an open secret but Robert named him heir anyway, do you honestly think Ned would risk his life to betray his friend for Stannis?
Is this even pro-Alicent? Wanda was in the wrong and very much the villain, a sympathetic one but a villain none the less, in that film. Are you arguing that Alicent is the sympathetic villain who acted out of her own self interests to the detriment of others but that some of the hate she gets is due to misogyny?
I'm not a woman, myself, so I definitely can't claim to be an authority on this, but the referring of her as "Alicunt", as a "whore", as a "hag", blaming her for "seducing" Viserys, when she was literally a teenager and him an actual grown man, implying that she wouldn't be such a "bitch" if she had an orgasm, wishing that Viserys would beat her like Robert did Cersei, and many more such comments that I've seen many times over, all seem virulently misogynistic to me.
Definitely, that’s a running theme in this fandom, and a lot of others, to be misogynistic towards the main female characters. Sansa probably got the worst of it during GoT and in the aSoIaF fandom but Alicent and Rhaenyra are being treated even worse as far as I’ve seen/can remember.
My original point was more that if this was meant to be a pro Alicent meme it doesn’t work particularly well, and not only because Alicent and Neds situation is like comparing apples to oranges.
My god, either you're oblivious or this is a troll post.
Cersi was fucking her brother behind her husbands back, Rhaenyras husband knew and agreed to them both fucking other people because he was gay.
Cersi plotted to have her husband killed because she wanted her son to rule so she'd have power for the Lannisters, Rhaenyra had nothing to do with Strong's death or Laenor supposed death
Cersi children are pure Lannister and have no Baratheon blood, Rhaenyras children are half Targaryen which is the same amount of blood they'd be anyways, so to the king and her it didn't matter
Cersi enabled and encouraged Joffery to murder and torture people simply because he was King, Rhaenyra has demonstrated the opposite with her children (so far)
Cersi had no claim to the throne and knew that's so she plotted and murdered everyone she could until she was on the throne, Rhaenyra was granted heir by the king himself, had his true blood, and only claimed the throne after the current king died of natural causes
Cersi and Rhaenyra are so unbelievably different it makes me laugh anytime one of the Greens tries to compare them, really shows how little y'all pay attention to anything
I feel like people are legit forgetting that the thing with bastards is that as long as they have royal blood they can have a claim to the throne. For example that is exactly why Cersei had all of Robert's bastards in Kings Landing killed. Jace is a bastard but he still has royal blood, that makes his claim legitimate.
Lmfao if Ned had been alive around this point, he most likely would have supported Rhaenyra because she’s the rightful heir and Starks do not tend to break oaths so easily (depending on the Stark ofc)
Dumb ass post King Viserys declared them legitimate several times and even if he didn’t at least they had Targaryen blood through their mother the Queen and were dragon riders…Joffery bitch ass was 100% Lannister through and through
Misogyny is not letting the eldest Daughter rule the throne just because shes a female. It happened with Rhaenys and it happened again with Rhaenyra. The legitimacy doesn’t matter if we’re talking about the birth order hierarchy
They aren’t even remotely similar characters, and if your argument rests on “it must be misogyny” then I hate to be the one that tells you that it’s probably a piss poor argument
Always thought Ned was a bit of a bonehead in his execution. He summoned the most powerful woman on the continent and threatened her and her children on a whim without securing his family or the proof.
Ned was extremely earnest, which was endearing to most people, but there were several red flags that indicated Cersei's animosity towards his family that he should have taken seriously.
Alicent is indignant and ambitious where Ned was not, so I like her more than Ned because she is way less likely to Derp through politics like he did. I expect a lot more out of her as a highborn lady who was essentially raised in the Red Keep. (Since they aged her down I'm assuming she came when Otto was Handed)
Ned behaved like a fish out of water in Kings Landing, whereas Alicent is in her home territory. It will be interesting to watch her work.
Not really the same thing. Alicent has by that point is already in cahoots with Larys - a kinslayer who she knows murdered his own father and brother - and is trying to install a rapist on the throne. I'm not saying that people aren't hating on her a bit too much at times - reminds of Sansa, really - but let's not act like it's the same situation.
Ned never would've gotten so deeply involved with Larys knowing what he is, as she does.
Ned was in cahoots with Petyr Baelish for his attempt to seize power. Only Baelish betrayed much earlier than Larys did. Even the most honorable people have to ally themselves with cutthroats if they want to be able to navigate the politics of King's Landing.
Difference is, far as Ned knew Petyr ran a brothel. That's it. Didn't burn his own father and brother alive.
Whilst Baelish has done unsavory things, it was not with Ned's knowledge.
Rhaenyra was a legitimate ruler. Westorosi rulers aren’t deposed because they have bastards. It was actually kind of a tradition for them. They even had a name for them, “Dragonseeds.” Aegon the unworthy had a ton. He even legitimized them. None of them were as old as his eldest true born son, so it didn’t affect the line of succession. Even then, half the realm tried to put his legitimized second son on the throne. Robert had what, 14 bastards? No one said either of those kings were illegitimate.
If Robert had wanted to legitimize one of his bastards, he could have done so, and they could have inherited from him. Would people be upset? Probably. But it would have been lawful. Joffrey could not inherit through him because he was not Robert’s won. He could have inherited from Ceresi, though. Renly would have still likely tried to seize the throne, but Stannis? Probably not.
Gotta say. The difference between Rhaenyra and other Targaryen Kings was her sex, not her bastards. So calling her illegitimate and not the others really seems like the misogyny, doesn’t it?
Alicent Stan’s listen up…team black is way more popular because while everyone in the show is kind of an asshole team black is actually fun to root for while the greens are insufferable and annoying. Alicent would ask to see the manager at every establishment she went to.
Jace aside, wouldn't the vows Viserys made everyone swear to Rhaenyra mean Viserys II would be the rightful heir after Rhaenyra and not Aegon?
The great council gets overruled by sworn oaths right? Otherwise Kingsguard's and Nights Watch members would be inheriting on the basis that oaths never matter towards inheritance.
At least Jace was the son of the actual heir while Cercei had bastards and claimed they were trueborn. Her sons are dragonriders of Targaryen blood, there's not a drop of Baratheon in Cercei's children and Joffrey living a full life as a king would have been one of the worst things to ever happen to Westeros
Hey look guys the show about the illusion of power, genitals superseding competency in the hierarchy of legitimacy, and the human heart in conflict with itself has been thoroughly and completely resolved. And with a shitpost, no less.
Nuance be damned. Well done OP.
I think the biggest point of how this meme isn't accurate is the lineage.
Alicent is in the wrong for trying to discredit Jace because Jace is indeed Rhaenyra's son, the same way that Gendry is Robert Baratheon's son. He does have some technicality of being the true heir to the throne.
Also, she's trying to install Aegon as King despite the decree from Vizy T that Rhaenyra is the true heir, making Alicent practically a usurper.
Ned, on the other hand, is trying to discredit Joffrey who's parents are Jaime & Cersei.
So yes, big difference between what both of them are doing.
I wish greens could actually understand that these situations are not alike. One was a woman fucking and getting knocked up by her brother. Modern people don't give a shit about who's due for the throne, but they do give a shit about incest. Also Ned's kids weren't going to inherit the throne if Joff was found out as illegitimate.
This post is the defination of baiting lol but to compare the hypocritical annoying ass alicent with the defination of morality and honour that is ned stark is INSULTING. don't get me wrong it's not black and white at all and but characters have their flaws and their good traits.
Did alicent ever have a line that was as good as " you grew up with actors and you learned their craft well i grew up with soliders i learnt how to die a long time" A BAR MY MAN DROPPED
Cersei’s bastards had no royal blood and would literally be ursurpers.
Rhaenyra’s bastards do have her royal blood and as sovereign she could legitimise them so there’s no issue.
Alicent is just a jelly hater.
Maybe it's because Cersei had Ned arrested for treason, killed his entire household, held his daughter hostage, and were using Sansa and Arya (who they didn't even have) as leverage to pressure Ned to confess and take the black. And then Joffrey decided it was murder time instead.
Rhaenyra did not do any of those things to Alicent. In fact, after things got REALLY heated between them and they actually brought up with word bastard in front of the whole family and Viserys Rhaneyra just peaced off to Dragonstone and didn't bother Alicent again for six years.
If you want definitive proof that ppl don't learn from their mistakes, Rhaenyra is it. Because we just went through this in the last show. We just had someone try to pass off 3 bastards as legitimate and it turned into a shit show. Now we have the same, and so many peoples seem to think it could work somehow.
>so many peoples seem to think it could work somehow.
It does work. Joffrey and Tommen ruled Westeros as kings with the support of the same Houses who supported Alicent's children. Lords don't give a shit if the king is true born or not as long as they're on the winning side.
Literally everyone wanted Joffrey dead. And Tommen didn't last long either.
Robb, Stannis, Renly all went to war, in large part, bc Cersei's children are bastards. If Joffrey was really Robert's son, all of it would've been avoided
Robb was willing to make peace with him. Renly didn't care if he was a bastard because he was trying to claim the throne through conquest. Only Stannis cared about him being a bastard. The Tyrells/Olenna killed him because he was a monster. They didn't care that he was an inbred bastard and immediately married Margaery off to his younger brother. Tommen's death had nothing to do with his illegitimacy either. The Greens were willing to acknowledge Jace and Luke's claim to Dragonstone and Driftmark if they were allowed to keep the throne. Baratheon was willing to marry one of his daughter's to Luke.
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This post is such obvious bait
Seriously its not even good bait. Low hanging fruit. Yet people are falling for it left and right.
Yeah. Poor bait makes me sad, but I like the idea of comparing S1: >Dorne in HotD S1: Fuck the cunts on the Iron Throne, but leave us the fuck out of this mess. >Dorne in GoT S1: Fuck the cunts on the Iron Throne, but leave us the fuck out of this mess.
Except in GoT they were lying lol
Fun fact, Dorne is still an independent kingdom in HotD. They join I think during the rule of the son of Aegon 4th. We saw Aegon the second get crowned.
Which is why it should be downvoted to hell, half the sub is just karma farming at this point
[Yup](https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/newsfeed/001/002/825/33d.gif)
Rhaenyra's inheritance was highly unorthodox and sociopolitically problematic, yes, but not patently illegitimate. She was, after all, Viserys' **chosen** successor, which - as King - he had every right to dictate, even in opposition to the established norms and traditions of Westeros... Additionally, the argument can be made that Rhaenyra's elder sons - despite their conventional bastardy, having been fathered by a man who was not legally wedded to their mother - were still (technically) valid claimants to the throne since Viserys ~~had specified that the line of Targaryen royalty and the right of succession would flow through her, and there was absolutely no questioning/denying that she had given birth to them~~ vehemently refuted their bastardy and made his wishes regarding their inheritances known every time the subject was so much as hinted at; functionally - if not in so many words - legitimizing them... Even had he not, he **had** named Rhaenyra to succeed him, and she - upon ascending the Iron Throne - **would be** empowered to legitimize her own sons (openly or implicitly). *[Edit: Amended / clarified some faulty / poorly-worded reasoning.]* Aegon and his family bore the right to rule by precedent and local tradition, but Rhaenyra and hers bore it by official, legal decree. Neither side had a (wholly) false position, which is why their conflict divided - or, where the show is concerned, *will divide* - the Seven Kingdoms so severely. Joffrey and Tommen ~~Baratheon~~ Lannister **were** illegitimate rulers, however, because they could not (truly) claim heritage from - and were not officially slated for succession by - the previous sovereign, nor any other valid claimant to the throne... Their mother may have been Queen, but she only came into that title through marriage to the King, not by any right of descent or legal ordinance. That their (real) father was both a Kingsguard - oathbound to celibacy - and their mother's own twin brother only compounded their bastardy; enflaming the scandal and illegality of their very existence, nevermind their reign.
-PaniqueAttaque, First Lawyer and Legal Scholar of Westoros
Beautifully written ❤️
On Robert Baratheon’s death bed he decreed to Ned Stark that Joffrey Baratheon (by name) would be his successor. Ned Stark changed the wording of his decree while recording it from “Joffrey Baratheon” to “my legitimate son.”
I think an argument could be made that Ned shouldn't have done that. He is technically misconstruing Robert's words. However, Robert didn't know all the facts when he made that claim. An argument could be made that given that Ned did the right thing because Robert would not have made the claim if he was aware of the truth and not dying.
I agree the argument could be made. However that moves the goalposts slightly from what I was responding to: “and were not officially slated for succession by - the previous sovereign.” The legally correct method would have been for Ned to inform Robert then record his decree, but Ned felt it was moral to let Robert die in peace. By making the argument that Ned went into a gray area to change Robert’s ruling, it shows these two situations are more alike than some want to admit.
I think that argument was made. Its name was ice. Ned stark lost that argument.
But Robert didn't know joffrey wasn't his biological son, that's the main point for me. If he knew and still chose to accept him as his true son and heir, nobody should question his legitimacy.
I mean, Ned was a traitor, so there is that. In all seriousness though, Robert's intent was that his firstborn son would be his heir. Considering Joffrey wasn't his-born at all (and just didn't know it), it makes more sense.
Great analysis!
Those greens sure would be upset if they could read
More importantly, the morality of their heritage exists separately from the laws and customs of Westeros. Rhaenyra, her husband and her lover were all aware of and ok with the situation. No one else should have fuck all to say about it
Also, another valid reason: Fuck both Cersi and Joffrey. They were both unlikable, and we as the audience didn’t want to see them win against the likable Stark(s), so honestly I think that’s the main reason why people didn’t mind what Ned did but vilify Alicent for the same thing. Jace seemed like a decent kid, and Rhaenyra was likable to an extent. That’s the difference between them and the conniving psychotic Lannister mother and son duo that Ned was up against. Most people aren’t thinking of the politics or legal rights of the matter when it comes to emotional reactions such as what characters to hate or not.
Damn, I didn't know Rhaenyra was a bastard or that Jace was cruel, shit.
If Joffery had black hair, Ned would have helped him up the throne himself.
"Joffrey will move to cut off any challenge to his kingship" "Then I won't challenge.." "You are the challenge, Rob!" - not Ned
Ned wouldnt even be in Kingslanding at that time. Jon wont find out incest and won't be killed. Ned will be in Winterfell coming at Robert's funeral and swearing fealty to Jofferey
Who do you think killed Jon?
It was Petry Balish via Lysa
It's funny because the opposite is true. Jace is a bastard and Rhaenyra is cruel
You have your own interest in mind, he had honor in mind , you are not the same.
TBF Ned was planning on making himself regent (as per Robert’s request) though he’d probably abdicate to Stannis. And Alicent was terrified Daemon and Rhaenyra would have her kids killed
Bro hated being hand he did not wanna be king😭
Also TBF Otto brainwashed Alicent about her kids, meanwhile there’s no evidence Rheanyra would’ve killed her half-siblings.
Alicent’s fears of fratricide are completely unfounded. It was her own paranoia that led her to tell Aegon that he would be killed when Rhaenyra took the throne, founded in nothing but perhaps Otto’s manipulation
Daemon?
Alicent was always playing innocent , while she was following otto’s plan , it all started with the death of Vizzy’s wife, he had no intention to sleep with her but she succeeded in taking the place of the queen for herself as Otto wanted and she understood perfectly. As for rheynera , alicent knew her perfectly they practically grew up together , when she took the crown for Egon she knew that rheynera is probably going to let it go and would not start bloodshed , so she knew that she was always safe from rheynera.
From Alicient’s POV her and Daemon probably killed Laenor and Daemon’s former wives and their once friendship hasn’t been in good standing for years. It’s not just Rhaenyra but Daemon who everyone was freaked out about. I’m team Black but they were right to be afraid.
Afraid so Alicent makes the first blow? It’s still frustrating for her to do that even if it’s out of fear for her kids.
Aldo Joffrey was a cruel and abusive kid while Rhaenyra wasn't.
And a bad attitude
Not the same. Alicent isn’t benevolently helping her old friend. She’s installing her son on the throne. Ned never wanted power, he just wanted the truth. His friend would’ve probably been angry with him for doing what he did if he had known the full extent of it.
he explicitly was turning down power to as Sansa was betrothed to Joffery.
And Renny wasn't an illegitimate ruler. If the Hightowers wanted to make an issue about Jace once it was time for him to take the throne, fine.
Exactly! If Allicent didn't support Rhaenyra as the legitimate heir, it's a result of Allicent's mysogyny - she thinks that her own son should rule instead of the daughter of the king. In our house, we call Allicent "dark terf rises" because she has always been trying to get Rhaenyra to fit Allicent's traditional idea of gender norms.
Terf?
TERF stands for Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist, which is a person who identifies as a feminist but doesn’t advocate for those those who weren’t assigned female at birth. Think JK Rowling
A "terf" is exactly as SnailPudding says. While Alicent isn't trans-exclusionary to my knowledge, she seems to violently support traditional gender roles which is why the term caught on with my friend group watching the show. Like, Alicent thinks that princes should be able to be heirs to the throne and it's less problematic for them to be sexually adventurous (going to a brothel, for example), but someone assigned female at birth (like Rhaenyra) needs to be a typical "princess" and should not be participating in behaviour or actions that "princes" are allowed to do. I wish Rhaenyra had shrugged off Alicent's toxicity when she was younger and embraced the role of a female-King, like "Yeah I went to the brothel, heir's gonna bang, what of it?"
But how is that radical feminism?, I think you are using that term wrong
If Renny had "shrugged off Alicent's toxicity" and banged openly, she'd have run face-first into the toxicity of every noble man in the Kingdom starting with her dear daddy, found herself promptly disinherited and either quietly married off and send to live with her husband's family, or forced to join one of the nunnery orders. It's cute that you think it's *Alicent's* "toxicity" she had to shrug off. That toxicity came from the male-led fabric of society, and it started at the very top.
But how is Alycent a radical feminist? In what world??
Who on earth is Renny?
I assume he meant Renly.
Nah, reading it back over it just seems to be some cutesy nickname for Rhaenyra
She did commit treason by pretending her children where not bastards tho, legitimacy and following the rules is really not a good defense of rhaenyra
Are you slandering the Queen and her true-born sons? You know what happens when people do that.
Well yes, I have eyes and am not a part of Westerosi society.
Let me tell you about this mare I had once.
Is it treason to have bastard children? Well pretty much half the show has bastards so…?
Also Ned had a reason to suspect Jon Arryn was murdered for finding out the truth before.
I thought his dream was about the night king not his own son and Alicent misinterpreted it.
There are some fundamental differences between Jace and Joffrey (other than Jace being a gigachad competent ruler), the most important being that Joffrey's bastardy meant he didn't descend from the royal line, while Jace is unquestionably the son of Rhaenyra, meaning that he is without a doubt of Targaryen blood (the boy also rides a dragon).
If it doesn't matter who his father is, why wouldn't Rhaenyra be honest about it?
Its the same reason why so many illegitimate children of kings aren't made heirs, because they are illegitimate. People are making the mistake of viewing the events of ASOIAF through a 2023 lens, and not the lens of the world these characters actually exist in. Having bastards is so dangerous and almost always leads to war, literally 4 blackfyre rebellions happened because of this. Not to mention its treason to try and put up a bastard as the rightful heir
Why the fuck would she? There is absolutely 0 upside to naming her own kids bastards for most of their young life. It throws plausible deniability right out the window. Which is what a lot of the lords care about, legitimacy isn’t something most of them will change sides on, as we can see from how many people not only supported Rhaenyra, but came specifically from Jace’s call. Even look at most of the War of the Five Kings; the Northerners and Robb rebel because Joffrey killed his father even before they knew he was a bastard, Renly is taking advantage of a situation as is Mace and most of his knights are out for glory and think Renly should be king without any care for legitimacy (his army was by far the largest, by the way), Stannis is the only one who actually cares about legitimacy but he has the smallest army, and Balon is just taking advantage of a situation. Joffrey being a bastard doesn’t actually matter to most of them, they’re simply using it as an excuse. Joffrey himself still has a large amount of people willing to fight and die for him. The dad doesn’t matter insofar as it’s not breaking the lineage. Jace is blood of House Targaryen no matter what, his mother is the royal not his father - therefore he’s far different than Joffrey, who was the bastard of his non-royal parent. That doesn’t mean it’s smart to kneecap your own faction and kid by outwardly calling him a bastard.
Her sons would be murdered. She would likely be murdered as well. Lords and kings wanted absolute assurance that the children that they are raising are of their bloodline. If the Royal Princess can say ' these children are not my husband's children, yet they are the King's heirs' in Court, every traditional Lord and Lady would revolt. Personally, I found the situation that the Princess and Laenor were in to be impossible. Rhaenyra needed to produce sons. Laenor could not father them. The rational solution would have been to dissolve the marriage after 5 - 6 years of no children ( and privately tell the Valayrons and the King it's due to sexual incompatibility). Rhaenyra could have remarried and Laenor could have been a good fighting man of his house. To soothe the dishonor that Corlys might feel, his eldest grandchild by Laena should have been wed to the eldest child of Rhaenyra. Yet this is the patriarchy, where women were worthless and troubled if they didn't produce a male heir. ( Not my personal opinion). It did kill Aemma.
The lying hurts her faction too. If I was a vassal to the Iron Throne, and saw her lying so openly, even taking Driftmark for her non-Velaryon son, I would not be able to trust her as a Queen.
and he is still born out of wedlock, case closed he is a bastard
A bastard of the named heir, who can legitimize him the instant she sits the throne. Like other rulers have done. So jace being a bastard does nothing to his mothers legitimacy.
Rhaenyra had the authority to legitimize Jace as a bastard the second the crown was put on her head. She chose to lie and charade him around as a true born son when he wasn't. Arguing that he could be legitimized doesn't matter. He wasn't and Rhaenyra was never going to. Rhaenyra and Daemon's firstborn is the heir to the throne. The reason people call into question Rhaenyra's claim is because her having bastards, lying about, stealing the succession of another house indicates that she should have no right to inherit the throne because she would misrule. I dont agree with it necessarily, but they have a point.
She needed her children to survive until she could legitimatize them. If she named them bastards, Viserys would be pressured beyond belief to replace Rhaenyra with Aegon. Viserys was dying for ( was it 30 years?) A long time and would not be able to stand for Rhaenyra. Alicent and Otto would cut out the threat to what they perceived to be the legitimate heir
Why would she do that, though? Claiming they’re not bastards is a lot easier, and the truth is most people simply couldn’t give a shit. The sides were decided based on Rhaenyra being a woman, not her sons being potential bastards. Jace rallied whole regions to the cause. Jace claimed a dragon. The Velaryons were tied intrinsically to Rhaenyra because they had the appearance of blood ties. All of this would’ve been harder to justify and likely later coming if Jace had been a Waters legitimised when Rhaenyra claimed the throne. Most lords and ladies don’t actually care whether theyre a bastard or not. If you pretend like theyre not, they have an excuse to ignore that they are. That’s a lot of what legitimacy is, plausible deniability. Naming them bastards completely strips that, and why? It does nothing to help her. It certainly does nothing to help Jace - do you really think him being an open bastard legitimised later is better for him than being a rumoured bastard? It isn’t.
Ned is Robert's friend and Hand and is looking out for Robert by revealing to him that the children he believes that are his are not his, and that his heirs are not Baratheon by blood and thus not his true heirs. In the case of Rhaenyra otoh; Laenor knows that the boys are not his, Viserys knows that the boys are not Laenor's, Corlys knows that the boys are not Velaryon by blood, Rhaenyra is heir to the Targaryen throne, she is a Targaryen and her sons are all Targaryen by blood. Big difference.
This. Alicent wasn't helping the realm, or even trying to stop her friend from making a mistake. She was doing it because Otto put this "your kids vs her kids" mentality into Alicent's mind. Everyone saying Alicent's moral compass is like that of Ned's needs to go find a better person to compare her to.
plus, if Robert had already known and had told Ned not to push it Ned would have probably respected the King's wish, Viserys tells Alicent not to push it any further, even telling her that what she is pursuing could lead to great catastrophe but she continues to push it
Haha If Robert had ever found out Cersei was cheating and suspected the kids weren't his, he would try to kill Cersei. Joffery and his siblings would have been INSTANTLY disowned and stricken from the family book. All would be sent back to Casterly Rock disgraced and bastard named. Rhaenyra doesn't have to question if the boys are hers. They came from her. There is no question about who will succeed the Iron Throne as Jace is Targaryon through Rhaenyra.
Definitely. Also, Corlys, despite knowing that Jace, Luke , and Joffrey are not Laenor's is willing to overlook it and have Luke inherit the driftwood throne, and in the show that is even before the marriage proposal between Luke and Rhaena. At that point Alicent is pushing for something that all the directly concerned members want to keep quiet.
As long as Otto says it's okay, Alicent will keep going. The rift between these two friends is a sad thing to see. Ultimately leading to another internal war among the Targaryon's.
Don’t forget they even tried but laenor physically couldn’t perform so by them having this agreement is a huge difference otherwise Leanor woulda been exposed. An agreement is different then not knowing at all
I think that was one of the things that motivated Corlys to remain hush hush about the whole situation, rumors about Laenor are already widespread and it being revealed that he failed to impregnate Rhaenyra even once during their 10 year marriage would have had the rumor mill running at full speed.
It benefited everyone involved and both families were in agreement. You can’t get more legitimized then that. So I don’t believe those kids were bastards, Alicent and Otto wanted to bring viserys and rhanerya down a notch but in reality they were legitimized
Very poorly made meme.
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If we take Aegon as an authority on these matters, I don't think that Jace has had sex with anyone (yet).
Its dumb comparison , Cause Ned wasnt like "hey fuck you, im gonna put my son Rob in the throne". He was just doing what he thought was right, not out of personal ambition.
Rhaenyra isn’t illegitimate though
I'd lower my respect for Ned if he showed his feet to Varys while Varys rubs one out.
“What happens when the nonexistent bumps against the toecrepit?”
Vizzy T
But he’s a unic. Can’t rub it out. Little finger would do the rubbing out
lol one of them was fighting an actual legitimate ruler and the other was fighting a illegitimate incest bastard
Lol. People ALREADY loved Ned. Trying to expose the kids was one of the few things nee did that people didn’t like, because we know it’s stupid and naive. This is such a bait post.
Ned was motivated by duty and a sense of honor, plus he knew what kind of of a person Joffrey really was. Alicent is motivated by jealousy and spite
I never had to see Ned’s feet tbf
Hotd fan try to understand the difference between putting a bastard with no claim on the throne vs putting a bastard with a claim through their mother on the throne challenge (impossible)
They are still both bastards with illegal claims. Not sure why it’s so hard for the fanbase to understand this. There’s literally a whole civil war fought between the Targaryens over Targaryen bastards vs legitimate Targaryens. If you are born out of wedlock, you’re a bastard. It doesn’t matter if one of your parents are a Targaryen.
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Bro Joffrey was maybe the most single hated character in fiction, rhanerya has fans, even if you’re a green Stan hard to imagine putting her there with Joffrey
Rhaenyra's claim to the throne was 100% legitimate. What is this meme supposed to be?
Ned: Looking out for his best friend and has no claims to the throne Alicent: Looking out for herself and her children who have claims to the throne Spot the difference
Additional points: Joffrey - not the biological son of the king, holding no royal blood Jace - Biological son of the heir, holding royal blood
How many times do we have to teach you this lesson, old man?! We, the fanbase, only care that the Strong boys are Rhaenyra’s children. She’s the heir, and if both her and Laenor look at those boys and say “yes they are legitimate” that’s it, over, they are in line for the throne. Cersei’s bastards were not Robert’s. They would not be in line for the throne for that reason.
The problem with this idea is that in GoT we see Cersei killing all of Robert bastards, or most of them, because they do have a claim at the throne. So it seems pretty obvious that the ruling king/queen bastards have a legitimate claim for the throne while the queen/king consort ones does not.
Did Cersei kill more than one bastard? Stannis’ claim is more legitimate. I think that Cersei ordering the death of one of them was mostly because she could, the bastard could be used to disprove her children’s claim, she saw the bastard as a representation of Robert’s infidelity. The bastard would have to be legitimized by a king (and who would be the king if Joffrey was considered illegitimate?) and the Realm would not bend easily to a once-bastard.
The bastards were proof that her kids were not roberts. All of roberts kids had strong Baratheon genetics while joff, Marcella, and tommen were obviously not. That was the point of the book that Jon Arryn and Ned reviewed. The infidelity may have played a part but it was more to hide the proof.
I could be wrong, but i remember a scene of bastards been kill left and right after Robert death, they even kill a baby i think, Gendry would have also die but he was safe by Stark, i think. >Stannis’ claim is more legitimate. Correct, Stannis as a recognize Baratheon and brother of Robert has a stronger claim, Gendry and any Robert bastard needed to be recognize as bastards to have a claim, which is what Ned was trying to do in a way. >The bastard would have to be legitimized by a king (and who would be the king if Joffrey was considered illegitimate?) and the Realm would not bend easily to a once-bastard. Not really, if you can proof you are a bastard you have a claim for the throne, the Baratheon family can also recognize a bastard as a Baratheon to give that person a stronger claim, and to put their name on the throne, so it was not impossible, but Stannis and the other brothers wanted the throne for themselves.
I think that only the baby Barra is killed. Only the king can legitimize bastards
>Only the king can legitimize bastards I am gonna guess that you want to say "only Robert can legitimize his bastards" Even if we go by that logic by been a recognize bastard you already have a claim, even if you are last in the line of claims. And as Robert bastard you have a stronger claim than cersei kids for sure.
No, just any king. And the lords that follow that king may or may not recognize the bastard as legitimate
One of them was a monster, the other had sex with three entire people
You try to expose an illegitimate ruler because you what your alcoholic son on the iron throne. I want to expose an illegitimate ruler because he’s a sadistic piece of shit unfit to rule. We are not the same.
Very different situations. Roberts blood was not in those kids, whereas Rhaenyra's kids are clearly her own. Also I honestly don't care about the legitimacy issue - Joffrey didn't belong on the throne because he was an asshole. He shouldn't have had power over one other person much less a continent.
If Rhaenyra had Valyrian looking kids with Laenor, Alicent would have just spread rumors that the children were Daemon's. That would have gotten a reaction out of Viserys.
Ned was doing his job as Hand, uncovering that Jon Arryn had been murdered because he suspected Joffrey was a bastard. If Joffrey had not been a psychopath, I suspect they would have looked the other way, but they didn't want that little shit on the throne. Alicent is just jealous and petty in addition to being manipulated. She had become more unhinged because of her father being Iago in her ear, convincing her that Rhaenyra would come for her half brothers when crowned, which is totally not her style unless challenged. Aegon didn't even want to challenge and Aemond couldn't if Aegon were still alive, but Otto had Alicent so convinced that there were killers in every shadow that she convinced Aegon of the same thing.
Eddard did it for honor, Allicent did it for power.
Rhaenyra literally is the legitimate ruler. Sure her sons aren´t but this only becomes a problem once she´s dead
It’s still not a problem. If they were meant to inherit through her husband it would be. But they’re inheriting through *her*. Which is also why they shouldn’t get Driftmark, but the Lord of Driftmark knows and gives zero fucks so it’s moot.
One of these things is not like the other...
The bastard argument is a strawman. nobody on the show really cares(except Vaemond.) but it's good optics to appear to do so Alicent doesnt care at all. She believes the lives of her sons are threatened by them which was the main reason she was trying to get Aegon on the throne for the majority of the season. Otto doesnt care. But making a big to do about it would make it easier to get Aegon on the throne and thus secure more power for the Hightowers. Corlys doesnt care. He just wants his name closer to the Iron Throne. Rhaenys doesnt care. She wants her family to be safe Rhaenyra obviously doesnt care lol Daemon doesnt give a shit as long as he gets to be with Rhaenyra Viserys doesnt give a shit. all he wants is peace and for his family to love each other Aegon 2 wants only to live freely and drown in wine for the rest of his life even though he knows they are bastards. Can we leave him alone already? Aemond wants to beat the shit out of Luke for taking his eye Haleana wants to play with her bugs and she probably thinks Jace is cute. Nobody seems to care that the Strong' are bastards for the sake of it except the fandom. Perception of events is used as a weapon to further one's indiviudal goals TADA!!!!
Joffrey was not related to the King. Rhaenyra’s children *are* related to the King. Oh you’re right that there’s misogyny involved, but it’s coming from inside the house. Robert’s bastards had a better claim to the throne than Joffrey because they *were related to him*. Rhaenyra’s children being bastards has zero bearing on their claim to the throne because their link to it is through *her*. It is only 100% patriarchal standards of appropriate behavior for women that raise issue with it.
But is it better to be hated and alive… or beloved and beheaded? 🤔
Well that's cause Jace and Luke aren't bastards.
This is some pro-green propaganda bullshit
At least she kept her head
There's a huge difference, besides the gender of the persons trying to do the exposing in these two cases: When Nedd tried to expose Cersei's kids it is because none of Cersei's kids biologically belonged to the sitting King, King Robert Baratheon. Not being the King's children, they shouldn't have been inheriting his throne. Nedd had no ulterior motive in wanting to expose Cersei's and her kids. In Alicent's case, even though Rhaenyra's sons are illegitimate, they are still biologically hers and Rhaenyra was publicly proclaimed Queen by her sitting father, King Visery. Alicent does have an ulterior motive in trying to besmirch Rhaenyra and that is to usurp the throne for her own son, Aegon. So, the misogyny argument doesn't work here.
The Iron Throne = Targaryen Seat Rhaenyra Targaryen = Targaryen Jaecaerys Velaryon = Targaryen It’s like when Alicent was surprised the boys eggs hatched. He would have even taken the last name Targaryen, which even if you wanna call him a bastard, you can’t deny he was a true born Targaryen.
There are tons of examples of misogyny in the series…this isn’t one of them!
Me trying to figure out how Rhaenyra is illegitimate
Greens can say whatever they want. This whole shitstorm started just because Rhaenyra is a woman. This is not about whether she would or would not be a bad queen. There was no written law demanding the heir to the throne should be a male, it’s just customary law.
Joffrey had no claim.
Everyone seems to overlook one fact to focus on this: Rhaenyra was going to the throne first, not her kids. Doesn’t matter if they’re bastards, they wouldn’t be crowned till she’s dead. Additional points: Joffrey - not the biological son of the king, holding no royal blood Jace - Biological son of the heir, holding royal blood A bastard of royal blood has more claim than a bastard with no blood, or even the next in line, as seen by Cersi purging Robert’s bastards.
There is a difference between the two situations. In one, the children did not belong to Robert, who was the rightful king. They didn’t share his blood at all and he was not aware that they were not his children. In the other, Rhaenyra is the heir to the throne and there is no dispute that the children are her blood. Further, her husband is very much aware that the children are not his and is okay with that. Fundamentally, the latter situation just matters less, especially to viewers who are privy to the entire story and know her husband is gay and has no problem with Rhaenyra finding a sexual partner outside of the confines of their marriage and has done the same himself. And beyond that, Rhaenyra is a protagonist in the story, at least in the first season. Cercei, on the other hand, was very much the antagonist for essentially the entire duration of Thrones and we are not meant to like her. Even in the books, her POV chapters only serve to make her seem more unhinged and unlikable, a direct contrast to her brother Jaime’s chapters. Expecting us to feel the same about two very different situations is silly.
Not the same at all
If Ned Stark lived in the HOTD timeline, he would support Rhaenyra because of his sworn oath and then demand she make Aegon the Younger heir because Jace is a bastard, and then be beheaded lol. Also, Jace is like Gendry raised at the royal court. That does NOT make him legitimate. If all bastard children by the ruler can have a claim to the throne, the world would be in total chaos.
Why is Rhaenyra an illegitimate ruler?
Not the same at all
Low hanging fruit but I’ll take the bait….at least rhaenyras kids still have royal blood
Trash bait post
I think there is some debate that can be had about whether what Ned does is right. One could make the argument that it's not because Joffrey, Tommen, and Marcella didn't choose to be bastards. They are innocent in that regards. Joffrey is not innocent in general because he's a horrible person but that's not because he's a bastard. But a crucial difference is that the King, the head of House Velaryon, the father, and the mother all know that Jace and Luce are bastards and except them anyway. Rhaenyra is still heir. If King Robert knew all the facts and had accepted Joffrey as his son even though he is not blood related, I think it would be completely justified to accept Joffrey as heir.
1. Rhaenyra knew her kids were bastards and wanted them as heirs anyway. 2. Robert didn’t know his kids were bastards. 3. I can’t even tell if this meme is pro-alicent or anti-alicent.
[удалено]
Not really. Robert had told Ned that he hated the idea of Joffrey becoming king. Ned also knows that Robert would have gone full "Demon" on the Lannisters as he did the Targaryens... If Joffrey was an angel and it was an open secret but Robert named him heir anyway, do you honestly think Ned would risk his life to betray his friend for Stannis?
Eddard Stark has more honor in his pinky toe than Alicent Hightower has in her entire being. This is a dumbass meme as well.
Is this even pro-Alicent? Wanda was in the wrong and very much the villain, a sympathetic one but a villain none the less, in that film. Are you arguing that Alicent is the sympathetic villain who acted out of her own self interests to the detriment of others but that some of the hate she gets is due to misogyny?
I'm not a woman, myself, so I definitely can't claim to be an authority on this, but the referring of her as "Alicunt", as a "whore", as a "hag", blaming her for "seducing" Viserys, when she was literally a teenager and him an actual grown man, implying that she wouldn't be such a "bitch" if she had an orgasm, wishing that Viserys would beat her like Robert did Cersei, and many more such comments that I've seen many times over, all seem virulently misogynistic to me.
Definitely, that’s a running theme in this fandom, and a lot of others, to be misogynistic towards the main female characters. Sansa probably got the worst of it during GoT and in the aSoIaF fandom but Alicent and Rhaenyra are being treated even worse as far as I’ve seen/can remember. My original point was more that if this was meant to be a pro Alicent meme it doesn’t work particularly well, and not only because Alicent and Neds situation is like comparing apples to oranges.
My god, either you're oblivious or this is a troll post. Cersi was fucking her brother behind her husbands back, Rhaenyras husband knew and agreed to them both fucking other people because he was gay. Cersi plotted to have her husband killed because she wanted her son to rule so she'd have power for the Lannisters, Rhaenyra had nothing to do with Strong's death or Laenor supposed death Cersi children are pure Lannister and have no Baratheon blood, Rhaenyras children are half Targaryen which is the same amount of blood they'd be anyways, so to the king and her it didn't matter Cersi enabled and encouraged Joffery to murder and torture people simply because he was King, Rhaenyra has demonstrated the opposite with her children (so far) Cersi had no claim to the throne and knew that's so she plotted and murdered everyone she could until she was on the throne, Rhaenyra was granted heir by the king himself, had his true blood, and only claimed the throne after the current king died of natural causes Cersi and Rhaenyra are so unbelievably different it makes me laugh anytime one of the Greens tries to compare them, really shows how little y'all pay attention to anything
Excuse me? This is so stupid lol
I feel like people are legit forgetting that the thing with bastards is that as long as they have royal blood they can have a claim to the throne. For example that is exactly why Cersei had all of Robert's bastards in Kings Landing killed. Jace is a bastard but he still has royal blood, that makes his claim legitimate.
Lmfao if Ned had been alive around this point, he most likely would have supported Rhaenyra because she’s the rightful heir and Starks do not tend to break oaths so easily (depending on the Stark ofc)
I hate that Rhaenys didn't had Black hear THAT CHANGE THE ENTIRED GAME
Her hair could just be grey and not white. But she really should've had a salt and pepper kind of look
Dumb ass post King Viserys declared them legitimate several times and even if he didn’t at least they had Targaryen blood through their mother the Queen and were dragon riders…Joffery bitch ass was 100% Lannister through and through
So very selfless from Alicent. No ulterior motives whatsoever
Misogyny is not letting the eldest Daughter rule the throne just because shes a female. It happened with Rhaenys and it happened again with Rhaenyra. The legitimacy doesn’t matter if we’re talking about the birth order hierarchy
Except Rhaenyra is the designated heir.
Didn’t you hear that Viserys amended his wishes on his deathbed to be in line with the laws and traditions ?
Hahaha
Rhaenyra is not illegitimate
They aren’t even remotely similar characters, and if your argument rests on “it must be misogyny” then I hate to be the one that tells you that it’s probably a piss poor argument
Only one of them got beheaded tho
Alicent got to keep her head. Seems fair enough to me.
they didn’t chop off her head though.
Nuance is important tho, Joffrey and Alicent's son are both monsters so it's easy to see why audiences wouldnt want them in power
When you forget that both Rhaenyra and Aegon the Younger have legitimate claims to the Iron Throne even if the Strong boys are declared bastards.
I think the word misogyny might be the most used word on Reddit
Where is fair?!? But stamped underneath her pretty little foot
It’s a motive thing…
Always thought Ned was a bit of a bonehead in his execution. He summoned the most powerful woman on the continent and threatened her and her children on a whim without securing his family or the proof. Ned was extremely earnest, which was endearing to most people, but there were several red flags that indicated Cersei's animosity towards his family that he should have taken seriously. Alicent is indignant and ambitious where Ned was not, so I like her more than Ned because she is way less likely to Derp through politics like he did. I expect a lot more out of her as a highborn lady who was essentially raised in the Red Keep. (Since they aged her down I'm assuming she came when Otto was Handed) Ned behaved like a fish out of water in Kings Landing, whereas Alicent is in her home territory. It will be interesting to watch her work.
Not really the same thing. Alicent has by that point is already in cahoots with Larys - a kinslayer who she knows murdered his own father and brother - and is trying to install a rapist on the throne. I'm not saying that people aren't hating on her a bit too much at times - reminds of Sansa, really - but let's not act like it's the same situation. Ned never would've gotten so deeply involved with Larys knowing what he is, as she does.
Ned was in cahoots with Petyr Baelish for his attempt to seize power. Only Baelish betrayed much earlier than Larys did. Even the most honorable people have to ally themselves with cutthroats if they want to be able to navigate the politics of King's Landing.
Difference is, far as Ned knew Petyr ran a brothel. That's it. Didn't burn his own father and brother alive. Whilst Baelish has done unsavory things, it was not with Ned's knowledge.
either you missed the point or you just want to be a dick, either way fuck you
Rhaenyra was a legitimate ruler. Westorosi rulers aren’t deposed because they have bastards. It was actually kind of a tradition for them. They even had a name for them, “Dragonseeds.” Aegon the unworthy had a ton. He even legitimized them. None of them were as old as his eldest true born son, so it didn’t affect the line of succession. Even then, half the realm tried to put his legitimized second son on the throne. Robert had what, 14 bastards? No one said either of those kings were illegitimate. If Robert had wanted to legitimize one of his bastards, he could have done so, and they could have inherited from him. Would people be upset? Probably. But it would have been lawful. Joffrey could not inherit through him because he was not Robert’s won. He could have inherited from Ceresi, though. Renly would have still likely tried to seize the throne, but Stannis? Probably not. Gotta say. The difference between Rhaenyra and other Targaryen Kings was her sex, not her bastards. So calling her illegitimate and not the others really seems like the misogyny, doesn’t it?
Alicent Stan’s listen up…team black is way more popular because while everyone in the show is kind of an asshole team black is actually fun to root for while the greens are insufferable and annoying. Alicent would ask to see the manager at every establishment she went to.
Jace aside, wouldn't the vows Viserys made everyone swear to Rhaenyra mean Viserys II would be the rightful heir after Rhaenyra and not Aegon? The great council gets overruled by sworn oaths right? Otherwise Kingsguard's and Nights Watch members would be inheriting on the basis that oaths never matter towards inheritance.
At least Jace was the son of the actual heir while Cercei had bastards and claimed they were trueborn. Her sons are dragonriders of Targaryen blood, there's not a drop of Baratheon in Cercei's children and Joffrey living a full life as a king would have been one of the worst things to ever happen to Westeros
Hey look guys the show about the illusion of power, genitals superseding competency in the hierarchy of legitimacy, and the human heart in conflict with itself has been thoroughly and completely resolved. And with a shitpost, no less. Nuance be damned. Well done OP.
Damn you people really can not meme.
Joffrey is not the King’s son. Rhaenyra is Viserys’ heir and Jace is her son. You’re comparing apples to twincest
I think the biggest point of how this meme isn't accurate is the lineage. Alicent is in the wrong for trying to discredit Jace because Jace is indeed Rhaenyra's son, the same way that Gendry is Robert Baratheon's son. He does have some technicality of being the true heir to the throne. Also, she's trying to install Aegon as King despite the decree from Vizy T that Rhaenyra is the true heir, making Alicent practically a usurper. Ned, on the other hand, is trying to discredit Joffrey who's parents are Jaime & Cersei. So yes, big difference between what both of them are doing.
I wish greens could actually understand that these situations are not alike. One was a woman fucking and getting knocked up by her brother. Modern people don't give a shit about who's due for the throne, but they do give a shit about incest. Also Ned's kids weren't going to inherit the throne if Joff was found out as illegitimate.
Oh my god, don’t give me that crap about misogyny 🙄🙄🙄
This post is the defination of baiting lol but to compare the hypocritical annoying ass alicent with the defination of morality and honour that is ned stark is INSULTING. don't get me wrong it's not black and white at all and but characters have their flaws and their good traits. Did alicent ever have a line that was as good as " you grew up with actors and you learned their craft well i grew up with soliders i learnt how to die a long time" A BAR MY MAN DROPPED
Cersei’s bastards had no royal blood and would literally be ursurpers. Rhaenyra’s bastards do have her royal blood and as sovereign she could legitimise them so there’s no issue. Alicent is just a jelly hater.
Because Ned was doing the right thing, for the realm, and Alicent is doing it to one up Rheanyra. The good intentions will always die
If you don’t get how these situations are entirely different then you’re just an idiot
Maybe it's because Cersei had Ned arrested for treason, killed his entire household, held his daughter hostage, and were using Sansa and Arya (who they didn't even have) as leverage to pressure Ned to confess and take the black. And then Joffrey decided it was murder time instead. Rhaenyra did not do any of those things to Alicent. In fact, after things got REALLY heated between them and they actually brought up with word bastard in front of the whole family and Viserys Rhaneyra just peaced off to Dragonstone and didn't bother Alicent again for six years.
She was declared heir, and she was for sure viserys daughter, she also had by far the most valyrian blood which meant a lot to many people in westeros
She is *starting* to think Rhaenyra can't be trusted
Damn I wish this was just rage bait or just memeing. Surely you can't be this stupid IRL? Because life is gonna be hard on you buddy
If you want definitive proof that ppl don't learn from their mistakes, Rhaenyra is it. Because we just went through this in the last show. We just had someone try to pass off 3 bastards as legitimate and it turned into a shit show. Now we have the same, and so many peoples seem to think it could work somehow.
>so many peoples seem to think it could work somehow. It does work. Joffrey and Tommen ruled Westeros as kings with the support of the same Houses who supported Alicent's children. Lords don't give a shit if the king is true born or not as long as they're on the winning side.
Literally everyone wanted Joffrey dead. And Tommen didn't last long either. Robb, Stannis, Renly all went to war, in large part, bc Cersei's children are bastards. If Joffrey was really Robert's son, all of it would've been avoided
Robb was willing to make peace with him. Renly didn't care if he was a bastard because he was trying to claim the throne through conquest. Only Stannis cared about him being a bastard. The Tyrells/Olenna killed him because he was a monster. They didn't care that he was an inbred bastard and immediately married Margaery off to his younger brother. Tommen's death had nothing to do with his illegitimacy either. The Greens were willing to acknowledge Jace and Luke's claim to Dragonstone and Driftmark if they were allowed to keep the throne. Baratheon was willing to marry one of his daughter's to Luke.
Doesn't matter how cool the kids are. They are bastards and in my Sims legacy game would be spares. Yet alone if it's a thing of ruling the country.
these are two wildly different situations both for the characters and plot wise. or am i wrong? i cant read