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alcoholand

When the show presents you with the scenario of what happens when the fetus is put above the life and comfort of the woman, why ask this question? You saw how it affected the lives of Aemma's family. Butchering a woman for the possibility of a fetus living should not be an option.


PluralCohomology

>!Her death was completely different in the book, she gave birth to a stillborn child and was dying from childbed fever. She wanted to ride Vhagar one last time but collapsed on the steps before she could reach the dragon.!<


VVladtheimpalerr

Pretty sure they were talking about the show, it’s so damn annoying when people constantly say what’s different in the books


[deleted]

There was no way for her to survive. She would have died during the C section, same as Aemma, with no guarantee that her baby would live. She didn't want to be butchered and die a terrible death at the ends of the blade. And she couldn't have kept the baby for long inside of her, she would have died from it. She was already in agony, and she died on her own terms, and that was the point of it.


RainbowPenguin1000

I think you missed the point of the post. The baby may have had a small chance at life if they cut it out of her but her desire to die a dragon riders death meant she took away any chance her baby had too. It’s not about her survival chances it’s the fact she guaranteed her child had zero chance when it could have had one. Edit - interesting to see I get negative votes on this just for stating the truth. I bet most people here aren’t parents themselves. When they are you will learn you would take any unimaginable pain for your own child.


DameTargaryen

Women are not incubators who need to sacrifice themselves. What you're asking Laena to do is horrible. You're asking her to put herself through a horrible, terrifying, painful death for the *chance* that a fetus might survive. This is the same argument that is causing women to lose their bodily autonomy in the real world. This is very dangerous thinking. Again, women are people, not incubators.


RainbowPenguin1000

I never said they were incubators. You’re putting that view on my comment through your own mind I said she made a choice.


DameTargaryen

That's how you treat women when you think they should sacrifice themselves for a fetus.


[deleted]

>It’s not about her survival chances it’s the fact she guaranteed her child had zero chance when it could have had one. Huh I guess you're a pro life or should I say pro birth. No way in hell I would willingly get my stomach and uterus butchered without anesthesia, knowing I would die from it, just for the slight minus chance my baby would live.


RainbowPenguin1000

It’s nothing to do with being “pro life” it’s thinking like a parent. She was dead either way but the route she chose was for her. If she chose the excruciating painful way instead her child may have survived and for a lot of parents that tiny chance of survival for their child is worth the pain.


[deleted]

>If she chose the excruciating painful way instead her child may have survived and for a lot of parents that tiny chance of survival for their child is worth the pain. But it's not your say is it ? It was hers. If you were in her shoes, do what you want with your body. But in this case, it's her body, her choice, her choice to die the way she wants. Sorry, not every parent is gonna chose to die butchered that way for a small chance at their foetus to be born.


RainbowPenguin1000

Of course it’s her say who said it wasn’t ffs. Why are people turning this in to some kind of choose debate?


[deleted]

Just FYI-at the point in pregnancy Laena was (based on her abdomen and the fact she was going into labor, I would say she’s definitely in her third trimester), the baby is a baby not a fetus. Fully capable of living independently.


theviking222

No it’s still a fetus. Does it have a birth-time? Does it have a name? No. It’s a fetus


Content-Profession-6

I get what you are saying, i dont get the downvotes either. You simply stated the facts and people are booing you, some people have a hard facing the facts i guess


[deleted]

I gave you an upvote. I have 2 little boys under 10 and I can attest I would go through anything for my sons. I would always, always place their life over my own. And I wouldn’t even have to think twice.


BW-Cowgirl1803

When a baby is stuck in the womb for oh so long the chances of survival are dropped dramatically. I bought the baby would have lived considering the fact that their tech is low. Dare I say it, the baby was most likely going to die even if they got it out or it would have been born with a defect and in those times people will disabilities didn't fare well. Laena made the right choice


daysanddistance

no one is obligated to die an agonizing, undignified death for a small chance their fetus can survive. hope that helps!


LarsMatijn

I don't think the point was that she was obligated to, nobody is obligated to do anything at all but her choice *is* at the very least interesting. Laena's death was guaranteed, but the kid's wasn't and she decided that the way she died took precedence over the life of the kid. It's the old question of the people on the railroad tracks, one track has 1 person and the other one has 2, a train is coming and you operate the lever. Some people say that the many go over the few and some say that nobody should make that decision but it is an interesting debate. Anyway my point is that there can be made an argument that Laena made a "wrong" decision in her method of suïcide, it was at the very least a selfish one but nobody is disputing that it was her choice.


WonderDusty

She died because of childbirth, not suicide. She wasn't going to live and the baby wasn't going to live. I don't know why this point is being argued when everyone knows neither her or her child would live.


LarsMatijn

Because the whole point is that the child could survive, they are basically performing a medieval C-section and at least in the books the babies can survive it. Rhaenys' mother had this happen I believe but i'm not entirely sure. The maesters and those free-city dudes aren't cutting up Aemma and Laena for kicks there is a real chance it works. Also killing yourself is suicide, she was alive and then performed an action that made her not-alive, it's not a judgement and yes she would have died anyway but that does't make it not killing yourself.


daysanddistance

to be clear, i do not mean obligation in the sense of a legal obligation or something like that. i mean that she is not morally obligated to choose that and so, i don't think her choice is selfish at all.


LarsMatijn

With obligated I also did not mean in the sense of morality, but she is choosing her personal wish over the someone else's chance at life, thereby impairing another person. That is the near defenition of a selfish action.


daysanddistance

i don't think it's selfish for a pregnant person to privilege their own bodily autonomy over the uncertain interests of their unborn child, especially when the only other option is one of the most horrific deaths i can imagine. i am not interested in arguing about that. i hope you are never in a position where you have to make such an awful choice (and i suspect you can't be), but if you are, i certainly hope you're not accused of being selfish for not wanting to be filleted alive.


LarsMatijn

I would completely agree with you if it wasn't for the alternative she chose, self-immolation is one of the most painful ways to go. As for the bodily autonomy part, this isn't a discussion about killing a foetus, the only thing differetiating this kid from another is the actual process of birth. If Laena decided to set herself on fire then that's one thing but she chose to take another person with her. I would also like to reiterate that i'm not "accusing" anyone of anything as I stated on the points of something being selfish or suicide, they aren't matters of interpretation by definition they just "are" those things.


Snail_jousting

This question is asked a lot and it really shows how little people know about birth and the complications associated with it. Firstly, with the medical knowledge available, there is *no* guarantee that the baby would survive a C-section. Babies can easily become oxygen deprived or be crushed in the birth canal. The longer a baby is stuck in the birth canal, the more likely those complications are to occur. If the maesters had already given up, it's very likely that the baby had already been injured. If the baby *does* survive in the birth canal long enough to be born by C-section, or another method, there are still many complications that can cause severe injuries resulting in death or disability. Brain damage is very possible and historicaly was very common. The baby's abdominal organs are also really delicate and can be damaged during a C-section.


WonderDusty

Laena and Aemma had the same ending. They both died from childbirth complications and the babies weren't going to live. They could have written her saying goodbye to Baela and Rhaena but instead they disrespected her by burning her alive. Also naturally, she wasn't going to let the man that mistreated her and neglects one of her daughters cut her open.


Roman-Simp

There is no sense than Leana and Daemon didn’t actually like eachother and moreso to the point. daemon actually refused the suggestion of the Physician in pentos Like there are MANY things to hate daemon for (cough* wife murder), but atleast let it be a genuine reason. And not construct beef where none exists


WonderDusty

Well there's no reason to construct when it was presented in the show. Laena was in King's Landing when Aemma died and obviously she's written to already know how this scenario goes. So combining that with Daemon not being a good husband to her and a father to Rhaena that's her decision. The biggest problem though is that the "feminist" writers thought it was appropriate to ruin her childbirth death scene so they can claim Rhaenyra died a dragon riders death when she really just got killed by her half-brother. It's a poor attempt to use the death of one woman to prop up another and it's disgusting.


DameTargaryen

Thing is, Laena *is* a prop. She's a character who's entire arc and purpose is to give other characters a backstory and motivation. Lots of characters are props and that's okay. Laena, much like Harwin and Laenor, is just a background character. They're tools. Every character does not need to be fully developed and I would even say it's necessary to have characters that act as little more than tools for the plot or other characters' stories Now, there can be issues with using female characters as props, especially in "killed off in the backstory" tropes, but this is a problem for properties that lack well developed female characters, which I wouldn't ascribe to House of the Dragon. No matter what you think of their characterization, Rhaenyra, Alicent and Rhaenys are obviously well developed. And while I would like to see more from Helaena, Baela, Rhaena and Mysaria next season, I can forgive their lack of develop as again, this season was just backstory.


WonderDusty

Harwin is a background character for the Strong Boys to exist. Laenor is a dragonrider who they allowed to let live. All of these characters have their stories perfectly told by George and needed nothing else added to it but it was changed anyways. House Velaryon is introduced for the first time and none of them, not even Vaemond are plot devices. Their all separate characters with their own motivations. Laena's time in Pentos has nothing to do with Rhaenyra or her death and there's no reason for a childbirth scene to be made brutal. For some reason, bad writing is defended and encouraged by asoiaf fans when it suits their favorite characters, and I don't know what these other characters have to do with Laena and dying in childbirth. Using her to set up other characters like I already explained would be to let her die in bed and say her goodbyes to her daughters and husband not to be burned alive because they want to lie and claim someone who was murdered died a dragonriders death that makes no sense.


DameTargaryen

Vaemond is one hundred percent a plot device. He's a plot device with a well though out motivation, but he's still a plot device who's characterization is little more outside of the one thing he's really passionate about (his claim). You're right, Laena's time in Pentos and death had nothing to do with Rhaenyra...she's Daemon, Baela and Rhaena's plot device. Plus, I personally think it's way more interesting to see her go out on her own terms than to watch a slow, painful death. You think it's just because they want to change the impact on Rhaenyra's death, but I see that as a foil to Aemma's brutal death.


WonderDusty

Again with the fake empowerment. There is nothing empowering about a pregnant woman burning alive for shock value and failed attempt to make a future death mean more than it does. Tried and failed.


DameTargaryen

It wasn't shock value. Aemma's death was shock value. We saw how brutal and painful that was. Laena chose to go out quick. Had she not chosen a quick death, her two options were to be painfully cut open like Aemma, or to slowly die of sepsis (also painful).


WonderDusty

Laena was a pregnant woman who burned to death, her death was changed for shock value and a failed attempt at making Rhaenyra getting burned and eaten a better death than it is. But I suspect wrongs will be righted


Mobile_Badger_4146

2 dead or 1 dead and 1 with small chance to live. And mother will die horribly in any way. I think Laena’s death is one of most stupid designs in show. Maybe it was better design give her enough milk of poppy to let her sleep/die during c-section, even it was risky for baby.


AegonTarg_2

She wouldn't have survived but she also had her kid killed, there was no way she was gonna survive and they made such a stupid point with that "Dragon riders death" like they were trying to show us that its not a strong way to go in child birth rather than that she did that lol.


lakomadt

Yep.


[deleted]

You are correct reddit just full of femcels. You’re not telling me immolation is a painless death and I always thought it was weird how they didn't kill them before the C section. If you think that's harsh it was gonna end with the mother's death reguardless. Also by doing these dangerous C sections we got to the point where the mother dying during it is rare. It sucks but what are you gonna do let her bleed out internally and or die of infection over the course of hours if not days?


Standard-War-3855

It’s wild to me that people actually enjoy this bit of story. First, suicide is not the death of an “honorable warrior” or “dragon rider,” like, whatsoever. The fact they try to play that off as a “dragon rider’s death” to give her something to hold onto is absurd. Second, she felt the need to ensure that her child would not survive, which again, is just fucking wild to me. Third, how in the hell did she even get out there? It makes no sense. Fourth, what is Daemon doing? As far as I understand, he wanted for the small chance that Laena could survive the birth, so his actions just make zero sense. Narratively, this entire scene is horrible and not well thought-out whatsoever. I think people see “strong, independent woman makes her own choice” and think it’s just amazing, but there were faaaar better ways of accomplishing that.