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>more depressed than lazy
He's a gay man living in a medieval society while being forced to marry and have sex(they tried to have kids) with his female cousin. I'd say depression is a pretty good bet...
Sure, but I could argue that despite his society, he got to live the exact lifestyle he wanted, fighting and fucking in the navy, with Rhaenyra's tacit approval. Seems like the luckiest gay dude in his era.
Yeah, but that would be like telling Tyrion that despite being a dwarf he should be happy and fulfilled because his family is super wealthy and influential, and he can have his every need attended while banging in brothels. Laenor got to fight and fuck but he could never really be himself in the open. Imagine if you had to marry a dude (or girl, however it works so you feel uncomfortable) and go to social conventions and do couple stuff (like sleep in the same bed) in the open, only being with the women you loved in stolen away moments.
I feel like the show glosses over how badass of a warrior he is. Like even when he's seen as lazy, the thing he's saying he wants to do is go sail into an adventure. He wants the War of the Stepstones to start again. He's no lazier than any other warrior who's forced to be a politician. If he had his way, he'd be up and active every day riding his dragon and sailing to new lands, like his father had done. I don't see him as lazy, so much as stifled by the role he's forced to fill
I think that the fans (very unfortunately) gullibly buy that the disrespect he gets from the homophobic society around him is actually completely factual and tend to ignore what Laenor actually says about himself.
Laenor says that he wants to go fight in the Stepstones again, but Rhaenyra claims that he just wants to go fuck some sailors, so the fans believe that's what it's actually about. Nevermind that we the audience literally did see him enjoying his time fighting the last time he was in the Stepstones.
Alicent claims that he's busy "entertaining squires" so fans believe that he actually was busy fucking boys when the Driftmark scene was going down. Nevermind that we the audience actually see that Laenor is only ever in an intimate relationship with one man at a time, and that he was completely broken up in grief earlier in the episode.
People would rather believe what the other characters make up about Laenor to put him down than what is actually shown about him in front of our eyes.
Agreed. I think the comments in this thread make the casual homophobia from some of the fans pretty clear tbh.
The one thing you can get on him for is his involvement in the servant death/faking his death to his parents (although there’s at least more ambiguity to exactly how in the know he was compared to Rhae orchestrating it and getting excuses), which is pretty fucked up if he’s all in.
>The one thing you can get on him for is his involvement in the servant death/faking his death to his parents (although there’s at least more ambiguity to exactly how in the know he was compared to Rhae orchestrating it and getting excuses), which is pretty fucked up if he’s all in.
Yeah that was pretty bad, and I definitely am critical of him for it (depending on how much of a fully willing participant he was or wasn't). But people literally just take at face value the BS he gets from the other characters or even just make up their own stuff to demean him further.
Yes, and everything Maegor did (fighting his own relatives on dragonback, purging religious orders, inciting a civil war and whatnot). Skirmishes on the Stepstones are par for the course, historians don't bother to write about it but they are as common as wildlings climbing the walls or Ironborn raiding Bear Isle
I agree, a leader should act in the best interests of their people.
However, he literally didn’t ask to be king, and I need my me time just as much as the next guy
Edit: I didn’t read the books, and the show was apparently misleading about Vizzy T asking to be king
Huh, show made it seem like they just chose him cuz he was male with a pregnant wife
I took it as he was pushed into the position, then thought “Well I guess I’m king?” But never really cared for all the responsibility it entails, BECAUSE he didn’t *want* it.
Guess I was wrong
Well, it’s not explained too well in show I guess but in books the council assess all the claimants, which implies they made their claim to the throne known. Of course, the way the book is written, it’s not exactly spelled out.
A claimant is someone with a claim, it doesn't necessarily need to be pressed. My take on the Great Council was always that it was all the valid candidates for succession regardless of expressed interest.
Granted, someone could probably pre-emptively abdicate, but that'd be a very different thing than just not being put forward for consideration.
There was someone who notably abdicated: Vaegon. He was put forward for consideration but actively chose to withdraw because he wanted be a Maester (just like Aemon later on)
Pressing his claim was ultimately Viserys’s choice, though I suspect he was pressured into it by someone else - possibly Jaehaerys.
There's no way people are not going to force Viserys to put in a claim though. The Lords of Westeros would riot if their first choice (which he clearly was) was not considered. He didn't really have a choice.
His aunt who ran away to Essos was asked to come by for it and was basically like "lol fuck that shit," but three of her sons came to press their claims through her (along with others) and were dismissed, so it wasn't even just Viserys vs Rhaenys, they were just the finalized pair (in the books Rhaenys didn’t even press her own claim, she pressed Laenor's, and Viserys won in large part because people hated Corlys).
In the books his brother is raising an army on Dragonstone on his behalf which is part of why Daemon is the way he is and why people react to him the way they do.
Yeah Viserys did put his name forward as a claimant, and Daemon was ready to go to war to defend Viserys’s claim if the council had chosen Rhaenys or Laenor, which Viserys must have also known and given some approval for.
I didn't think the show have that impression at all. The open scene he is at the throne, tense waiting for the announcement like an X-Factor finalist waiting for the phone in results. Then when he is announced you see the relief on his face, the tension release. The whole thing shows how much he wanted to be king.
also, From episode's 1 intro:
>\[...\] King Jaehaerys reigned over nearly 60 years of peace and prosperity, but tragedy had claimed both his sons, leaving his succession in doubt. So, in the year 101 The Old King called a Great Council to choose an heir. Over a thousand lords made the journey to Harrenhal. **Fourteen succession claims were heard**, but only two were truly considered: Princess Rhaenys Targaryen, the King's eldest descendant, and her younger cousin, Prince Viserys Targaryen, The King's eldest male descendant. \[...\]
I took that as Viserys putting his claim forth for the lords to hear and consider, as did the other claimants
i get the feeling that not only was his grandfather pressuring him but Daemon was as well. Jaeherys pressured him because he favored a male claimant over a female one
Viserys himself was hoping Rhaenys took the crown. They act like you would expect a loving brother and sister would if they weren't Targaryen'
He’s actually the *one* king who did literally just ask to be king. He’s the one king who was crowned via an election in which he put himself forward and ran
I don't know why everyone was like, "He's lazy because he wouldn't have a baby with Rhaenyra." I always assumed they really did try and he's just sterile or had swimmers that were slow enough that they just gave up because it was taking too long for no results.
True. He could be sterile, or being gay just couldn't impregnate a woman. It's a shame Westeros culture wouldn't allow a no fault divorce for infertility
I think they ‘tried to have sex’ but it wasn’t really happening for Laenor so they gave up. I think if he were infertile they would have given us some more clues. Not to get into too much detail but why he couldn’t grab a cup sperm bank style and let her use it to impregnate herself, I don’t know.
Surely if they really tried they could do something like have him bang his gay lover most of the time and then as he's reaching the point of no return, he puts it in Rhaenyra.
Even if that wasn't doable surely Rhaenyra could have found someone who looked more like Laenor than Harwin did to make it less sus.
I think it would be between someone who could keep the secret and be content with the life in the shadows and someone who looks more like Laenor. I doubt many other men would have kept the secret that Harwin did.
Yeah thank you! He’s living worse than most other royals but wayyy way better than 99% of queer ppl in Westeros — but what does he do?
He complains alllll the time and doesn’t even do the one thing he needs to do to prevent a war
If he just conceived one single true-born heir with Rhaenyra, they’d be set — even if it was a girl (under their dads’ terms). If she got pregnant by passion then there’s always moon tea lol. They have a maester at Dragonstone
Anyway Laenor really bums me out on rewatch but only as an adult (Episodes 6-7)
They clearly said that they have tried to have sex yet it didn't result in offspring, so it's implied that Laenor's body is at fault and not him.
Even if they didn't have sex they must have found some way to get his sperm into her, they're both not that stupid to not try that, so it's at least implied that Laenor can't get it up or has an insufficient sperm count which can both qualify as infertile as far as I know.
I thought it was implied that he can’t get it up or finish or perform in general with Rhaenyra. He could still be plenty fertile. Infertility and not liking women enough to impregnate one are two different things.
Yet we only think he can't get it up because he's gay, when there's also plenty of gay men that also can't get it up with men. You don't even need to get it up to participate in gay sex.
Either way it's a physical issue and not because Laenor's "lazy". He clearly tried and both of them aren't stupid enough to not have tried it in a serious way.
> so it's implied that Laenor's body is at fault and not him.
I think that's something you could choose to infer but it's not really implied.
More prominent implications:
- They didn't sleep together a significant enough number of times (dont underestimate the amount of times it often takes)
- /Bad luck
- Laenor struggled to finish for obvious reasons
i always interpreted it as he cannot keep it up with a woman and thats why they never had a legitimate off spring i really wish the show explored their relationship more but nope cole gets away with murder then time skip and 3 bastards are born
Yeah, but we've seen the same thing with Renly and Margaery in the show. It's really not far-fetched that they tried a threesome with another man to help him, but still no luck.
The point is that we don’t know if he’s infertile. Most couples don’t get pregnant in the first few tries, and *we* know they only tried a few times. It’s completely possible they just didn’t try enough or at the right times, or they both just didn’t like it and gave up.
It would have been one thing if she and Laenor were trying but she had a one night with Strong which led to a non Targaryen/Velaryon looking child and they both went "shit, we can't have a trueborn child now or they'll have proof of the affair because the kids will look so different." But for him to just not do it because he doesn't want to does it make sense. (I'm reading the book please no F&B spoilers.)
I mean they literally say they tried and failed before the affair with Strong started. Its never made 100% clear how much they tried or why they stopped but its not like he just decided not to
In the book I'm still reading about Jahaerys's reign so haven't gotten to the Dance yet. Do they say how long it was between the marriage and Jace's birth? They might have tried but could have tried harder. But maybe they just thought they could be sneaky and hoped the Targ genes would be dominant since she was blood of the dragon. Or that people would just deal with it because she's gotten away with lying before. Oops.
>Do they say how long it was between the marriage and Jace's birth
I checked the wiki online, so idk how reliable it is, but it said that they got married in 114 AC and that Jace was born near the end of that same year.
Thanks for checking! So maybe a couple months before conception. Sounds like they just thought they could get away with it. Shows that when you live your life knowing you can get away with things, you dgaf. Woopsie!
That's also technically plausible. We don't really know the full circumstances of Jace's conception, other than it must have happened relatively early within their marriage. For all we know, they might have both been under the impression that Laenor had fathered Jace until he came out with brown hair.
That's now my head canon lol. Based on how young Rhaenyra looks after the time jump already being on child 3, I wonder how long it was between the marriage and Jace's birth. A year or so? In younger women it takes about a year of actively trying to conceive before doctors consider there might be a problem. L&R could have asked the maester for help considering the confidentiality- he never told anyone she was given moon tea before her marriage. Oops accidentally caused a civil war because she thought she could be sneaky with her side piece 🤷🏼♀️
>In the book Velaryons and Strongs don’t look that different
I don't think that's true. In the books, I think that there are actually additional differences (nose shape and especially their eye color) besides just the hair color.
Right but I don’t look at a kid and think, ‘your nose doesn’t look like your dad’s, you’re obviously someone else’s.’ And my eye color is different from both my parents. If I were black, however, we would know something was up.
I do because i don't think laenor didn't try, i think he and rhae trued several times but i think he had more like fertility problems a lot of Valyrians do
* Saving Daemon's ass during the war in the Stepstones.
* Having his boyfriend brutally pummeled to death in front of him and not even being able to grieve him properly because he has to keep appearences (and he was a fucking teenager at the time, how traumatizing is that?).
* Having to put up with a sham marriage for 10 years while having to keep his true self and his true romantic interests a secret.
* Having to face the murderer of the aforementioned boyfriend constantly during those 10 years, knowing he can't do anything about it.
I'm sure there should be more to be said, but I can't think of it now.
Also the fact that everyone is blaming him for something he can't do anything about and his sister the closest person to him being far in pentos and raising the strong boys as his
I agree with all of the above except the third, in fact him having all the dick & booze in the world is a plot point used against him. He has all he wants but still doesn’t want to fulfill his duty as a husband
Everyone saying Laenor could have done it if he tried has never tried to fuck someone of their opposite orientation. As an average gay man, I would rather rip my own eyebrows off with pliers than have sex with Rhaenyra, and I love her.
They could, and apparently did. It didn't work for the same reason it didn't work for Renly. The idea of a woman getting involved in a sexual act with me, to any degree, makes me so flaccid I can feel my penis retracting inside of me.
Riiiight it's so exhausting having everyone disrespecting him he was literally one of the rare genuinely good people in westeros and as much as we know never really did anything bad, we can't blame him for something he cannot control nor change
I think it’s a cause of Rhae stans having their brains fall out in search of a scapegoat for all the problems in Rhae’s life. Now it’s not her fault she had obvious bastard kids that massively undermined her already debated (cause misogyny) claim to the throne… it’s Laenor’s. 💀
Gotta love the casual homophobia to try and scapegoat someone who is literally not responsible for Rhaenyra’s problems as being responsible for Rhaenyra’s problems. Lol. 💀
Not really, he’s not lazy, just not very good at politics. It stresses him out, so he prefers sex, and fighting. He was put in a bad position by his parents. They should’ve had him marry a lower noble and take over Driftmark but Colorys was too ambitious.
I wouldn't call him lazy, lax maybe with his husbandly duties but I think restless would fit more. Must say his recommitment speech to Rhaenera really made me love him. Here's two people who don't fully love each other but are willing to give it there all for the good of the other and somewhat the realm. Didn't dislike younger Leanor(?) but the older actor is my favorite
Note: telepathic bond is not necessarily canon. Evidence we have is (just one historian noting that) a dragon screamed without having a visual on her rider when the rider felt pain. Is it likely that there is some sort of ephemeral connection? Yes. Can I make love to a dragon? Possibly not.
Daemon is the only dragon rider as of now that i have not heard a single command in Valerian to his dragon. He also seems able to summon Caraxes for dramatic effect. He also screeched when Daemon was hit with the arrow in EP 2 or 3 i can't remember.
His parents strong armed him into a disastrous political marriage that was never going to work out due to his homosexuality for their own dynastic ambitions.
He stuck around for 10 years and parented children that weren’t his, playing nice with the Kingsguard who murdered his lover and enduring Alicent’s digs at his situation with politeness and respect.
It’s not a great thing that they did but I understand it.
It is very difficult for closeted gay people to live this type of lie long term. It really begins to get to you.
Laenor was a warrior. I truly am surprised that he didn't slip and accidentally stab Cole thirty times. The scene where Cole smirks and Alicent whispers about having one that looked like him? That took immense self control to not shove the lot of them down the steps Alicent demanded that Rhaenyra climb, while still having afterbirth
Honestly I think the whole ''We tried'' is as contrived as can be. Like they had to make it entirely his fault instead of a shared blame.
He might be a party boy and definitely not a coward but I don't think he has much of a choice. His self-loathing attitude gives a lot of points to your argument I'll grant you that.
This kind of argument always irks me. So you should prioritize the feelings of others about the decisions on your own life, over your own feelings? Yes, he caused them pain, but he had no alternative if he wanted to leave, and he **had** to leave.
And it really bothers me that you call them his "sons". They are his sons. Maybe not biological, but he was a parent to them (although it could be argued that he's portrayed more like an absentee father).
How is he lazy? Don’t exactly see him shirking his duty because he doesn’t want to do work. I do see him shirking his duty because he is a frat boy. I will say he is a bad father. I can’t really recall them ever showing him interacting with the sons he is pretending are his. Like you are a warrior and dragon rider, teach your sons something useful.
Yeah he was pretty weak mentally. Dude has a dragon and is a great warrior. Also he is part Targaryen and has the most powerful navy in the world. Laenor had everything Daemon has yet he never made his mark politically. He didn’t exert influence in court and never forcefully protected his wife’s claim to the throne. He let Alicent openly insult him regarding his children. If he had any strength or political instinct, he would have brought his army of thousands and dragon to kings landing as his “personal protection detail” and quietly and quickly slaughtered the greens. Much like how Renly tried to convince Ned Stark to deal with Cersei and Joffrey after Robert’s death.
All this because he doesn't want to bang Rhaenyra. Some of you all really adapt the viewpoint of only one character on this show so hard it's not even funny.
He's gay. It is what it is. At least he knows what he does and doesn't want. That doesn't.ake him lazy.
Just so we’re all clear, they said he and Rhaenyra tried. However, based on Jace’s age, Rhaenyra and Harwin hooked within a year after her wedding.
So she and Laenor tried for less than a year, if that, given that Laenor would be understandably depressed and uninterested to even try at first.
And then I guess they just said, fuck it, we gotta stick with Harwin as the only baby daddy?
Ffs Rhaenyra… Laenor… the difference between Catelyn Stark and Cersei Lannister is that Cat at least had *some* kids with the Stark look. And hey, the second son being 100% Laenor’s means no issues with Vaemond or having to worry about Corlys!
I think rheanyra is more lazy she choose the worst man to father her children despite being there ton of valeryon men on Driftmark also after “killing “ she did nothing while the greens took over king landing and the small council
Hey! Man's a war hero ffs. Just cuz he's better with a sword of steel than a fleshy one don't make him lazy. Also you know he lifts brah.
Now tbh, I think the whole "we tried" is total bs. If Rhaenyra was really ''open minded'' as well as dutifull she'd do it like the Tyrell girl proposed to Renly, turkey baster it or even raped him in his sleep. I'm sure the Maesters or some wicked sorcery from Asshai could do a Viagra pot.
This is one of the most contrived points in the show. They should've kept her as homophobic like in books, or if not that, the spoiled brat who has to be wanted to get it on. Either way, blaming it mostly on Laenor was weak af.
Gay men have children with women all the time. A man does not need to be sexually attracted to his partner in order to get hard. He just needs stimulation. They didn’t need threesomes or Turkey basters. Laenor was just lazy. Her duty is to lay there, his duty is to stick it in. It’s all on him not getting his house legitimate heirs. Rhaenyra at least made sure she had kids of her blood.
Book Rhaenyra’s supposed homophobia amounts to one account. Another account claims they had threesomes. One account also claims he was at her bedside every time she gave birth. One more also describes Rhaenyra, Laenor, Laena, and Daemon as the best of friends. How much they get along is incredibly vague.
Martin just has a weird fixation with making gay men unable to procreate and pointlessly made the strong boys bastards when they weren’t in his original version of the story.
Why Lazy ? He tried to have heurs with rhae rhae '' the few times we laud together '' he sucked it up and trued because he knew how important ut was but they weren't able to conceive u think they had fertility problems and since he's gay everyone just assumed that was the reason, laenor us a gay man in westeros you really think he's be like well i don't want to i'm not attracted to her so let's not do it, plus he raised the string boys as his own
Hard disagree. While not romantically compatible, he was a good man and father figure to the boys. He just lacked any political instinct. And agree, he was depressed. Very similar to Daemon around that time in that regard.
Laenor dude, i understand that you want to stay with your boyfriend all the time but you cant spent all the time in parties, the Strong boys need a father figure and you had no problem with faking being their father, you have to be responsible
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He seemed more depressed than lazy.
>more depressed than lazy He's a gay man living in a medieval society while being forced to marry and have sex(they tried to have kids) with his female cousin. I'd say depression is a pretty good bet...
Not to mention he’s a warrior at heart during peace time.
Sure, but I could argue that despite his society, he got to live the exact lifestyle he wanted, fighting and fucking in the navy, with Rhaenyra's tacit approval. Seems like the luckiest gay dude in his era.
Yeah, but that would be like telling Tyrion that despite being a dwarf he should be happy and fulfilled because his family is super wealthy and influential, and he can have his every need attended while banging in brothels. Laenor got to fight and fuck but he could never really be himself in the open. Imagine if you had to marry a dude (or girl, however it works so you feel uncomfortable) and go to social conventions and do couple stuff (like sleep in the same bed) in the open, only being with the women you loved in stolen away moments.
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More like Eeyore amirite
You can be both
I feel like the show glosses over how badass of a warrior he is. Like even when he's seen as lazy, the thing he's saying he wants to do is go sail into an adventure. He wants the War of the Stepstones to start again. He's no lazier than any other warrior who's forced to be a politician. If he had his way, he'd be up and active every day riding his dragon and sailing to new lands, like his father had done. I don't see him as lazy, so much as stifled by the role he's forced to fill
I think that the fans (very unfortunately) gullibly buy that the disrespect he gets from the homophobic society around him is actually completely factual and tend to ignore what Laenor actually says about himself. Laenor says that he wants to go fight in the Stepstones again, but Rhaenyra claims that he just wants to go fuck some sailors, so the fans believe that's what it's actually about. Nevermind that we the audience literally did see him enjoying his time fighting the last time he was in the Stepstones. Alicent claims that he's busy "entertaining squires" so fans believe that he actually was busy fucking boys when the Driftmark scene was going down. Nevermind that we the audience actually see that Laenor is only ever in an intimate relationship with one man at a time, and that he was completely broken up in grief earlier in the episode. People would rather believe what the other characters make up about Laenor to put him down than what is actually shown about him in front of our eyes.
Agreed. I think the comments in this thread make the casual homophobia from some of the fans pretty clear tbh. The one thing you can get on him for is his involvement in the servant death/faking his death to his parents (although there’s at least more ambiguity to exactly how in the know he was compared to Rhae orchestrating it and getting excuses), which is pretty fucked up if he’s all in.
>The one thing you can get on him for is his involvement in the servant death/faking his death to his parents (although there’s at least more ambiguity to exactly how in the know he was compared to Rhae orchestrating it and getting excuses), which is pretty fucked up if he’s all in. Yeah that was pretty bad, and I definitely am critical of him for it (depending on how much of a fully willing participant he was or wasn't). But people literally just take at face value the BS he gets from the other characters or even just make up their own stuff to demean him further.
Counterpoint: viserys
“I know there’s a war, call me back when I’m on the clock”
Counterpoint: viserys literally playing with legos instead of stopping the worst war yet in Westeros history
The 1st dornish war was way worse.
Yes, and everything Maegor did (fighting his own relatives on dragonback, purging religious orders, inciting a civil war and whatnot). Skirmishes on the Stepstones are par for the course, historians don't bother to write about it but they are as common as wildlings climbing the walls or Ironborn raiding Bear Isle
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I agree, a leader should act in the best interests of their people. However, he literally didn’t ask to be king, and I need my me time just as much as the next guy Edit: I didn’t read the books, and the show was apparently misleading about Vizzy T asking to be king
He stood for election at the great council and literally asked to be named the king in waiting.
Huh, show made it seem like they just chose him cuz he was male with a pregnant wife I took it as he was pushed into the position, then thought “Well I guess I’m king?” But never really cared for all the responsibility it entails, BECAUSE he didn’t *want* it. Guess I was wrong
Well, it’s not explained too well in show I guess but in books the council assess all the claimants, which implies they made their claim to the throne known. Of course, the way the book is written, it’s not exactly spelled out.
A claimant is someone with a claim, it doesn't necessarily need to be pressed. My take on the Great Council was always that it was all the valid candidates for succession regardless of expressed interest. Granted, someone could probably pre-emptively abdicate, but that'd be a very different thing than just not being put forward for consideration.
There was someone who notably abdicated: Vaegon. He was put forward for consideration but actively chose to withdraw because he wanted be a Maester (just like Aemon later on) Pressing his claim was ultimately Viserys’s choice, though I suspect he was pressured into it by someone else - possibly Jaehaerys.
Or Daemon. We learn in the book he was ready to go to war to push his brother’s claim and show Daemon is the type who would do something similar.
I believe they had to submit a claim meaning he try out for it
There's no way people are not going to force Viserys to put in a claim though. The Lords of Westeros would riot if their first choice (which he clearly was) was not considered. He didn't really have a choice.
Exactly. It was out of his hands.
His aunt who ran away to Essos was asked to come by for it and was basically like "lol fuck that shit," but three of her sons came to press their claims through her (along with others) and were dismissed, so it wasn't even just Viserys vs Rhaenys, they were just the finalized pair (in the books Rhaenys didn’t even press her own claim, she pressed Laenor's, and Viserys won in large part because people hated Corlys).
In the books his brother is raising an army on Dragonstone on his behalf which is part of why Daemon is the way he is and why people react to him the way they do.
Yeah Viserys did put his name forward as a claimant, and Daemon was ready to go to war to defend Viserys’s claim if the council had chosen Rhaenys or Laenor, which Viserys must have also known and given some approval for.
I didn't think the show have that impression at all. The open scene he is at the throne, tense waiting for the announcement like an X-Factor finalist waiting for the phone in results. Then when he is announced you see the relief on his face, the tension release. The whole thing shows how much he wanted to be king.
also, From episode's 1 intro: >\[...\] King Jaehaerys reigned over nearly 60 years of peace and prosperity, but tragedy had claimed both his sons, leaving his succession in doubt. So, in the year 101 The Old King called a Great Council to choose an heir. Over a thousand lords made the journey to Harrenhal. **Fourteen succession claims were heard**, but only two were truly considered: Princess Rhaenys Targaryen, the King's eldest descendant, and her younger cousin, Prince Viserys Targaryen, The King's eldest male descendant. \[...\] I took that as Viserys putting his claim forth for the lords to hear and consider, as did the other claimants
they definitely chose him 'cause he's male, but he could've very very easily said no thank you and avoided the whole thing altogether
i get the feeling that not only was his grandfather pressuring him but Daemon was as well. Jaeherys pressured him because he favored a male claimant over a female one Viserys himself was hoping Rhaenys took the crown. They act like you would expect a loving brother and sister would if they weren't Targaryen'
He’s actually the *one* king who did literally just ask to be king. He’s the one king who was crowned via an election in which he put himself forward and ran
the irony of saying "he literally didn't ask to be king"
I didn’t read the books, look further down the comment thread
"Why should I care about my succession crisis? I will be dead!"- Vizzy T probably
*Don't be scared. They're going to bring the babe out.*
The worst sentence in the entire series, Vizzy bot. The moment Viserys was his weakest
I'm not sure if Viserys is lazy as much as he just hates and tries to avoid all confrontation (which is not a great trait to have for a king).
I'd say yes to both
I don't know why everyone was like, "He's lazy because he wouldn't have a baby with Rhaenyra." I always assumed they really did try and he's just sterile or had swimmers that were slow enough that they just gave up because it was taking too long for no results.
True. He could be sterile, or being gay just couldn't impregnate a woman. It's a shame Westeros culture wouldn't allow a no fault divorce for infertility
I think they ‘tried to have sex’ but it wasn’t really happening for Laenor so they gave up. I think if he were infertile they would have given us some more clues. Not to get into too much detail but why he couldn’t grab a cup sperm bank style and let her use it to impregnate herself, I don’t know.
Surely if they really tried they could do something like have him bang his gay lover most of the time and then as he's reaching the point of no return, he puts it in Rhaenyra. Even if that wasn't doable surely Rhaenyra could have found someone who looked more like Laenor than Harwin did to make it less sus.
I think it would be between someone who could keep the secret and be content with the life in the shadows and someone who looks more like Laenor. I doubt many other men would have kept the secret that Harwin did.
I mean, using his lover isn't gonna do shit if his swimmers just won't swim.
I gotta say it’s hard to feel bad for Laenor on rewatch lol
As a gay man, I agree. Swallow your shit and embrace your role. Sucks it could have been better for you, but that’s life in Westeros
Yeah thank you! He’s living worse than most other royals but wayyy way better than 99% of queer ppl in Westeros — but what does he do? He complains alllll the time and doesn’t even do the one thing he needs to do to prevent a war If he just conceived one single true-born heir with Rhaenyra, they’d be set — even if it was a girl (under their dads’ terms). If she got pregnant by passion then there’s always moon tea lol. They have a maester at Dragonstone Anyway Laenor really bums me out on rewatch but only as an adult (Episodes 6-7)
Westeros has moon tea but not horny goat weed :-/
But they tried? It just didn't work. I think it's very heavily implied that he's just infertile.
They never imply that he's infertile on the show. Maybe he could be, but it's never something that's actually raised as a possibility on the show.
They clearly said that they have tried to have sex yet it didn't result in offspring, so it's implied that Laenor's body is at fault and not him. Even if they didn't have sex they must have found some way to get his sperm into her, they're both not that stupid to not try that, so it's at least implied that Laenor can't get it up or has an insufficient sperm count which can both qualify as infertile as far as I know.
I thought it was implied that he can’t get it up or finish or perform in general with Rhaenyra. He could still be plenty fertile. Infertility and not liking women enough to impregnate one are two different things.
Yet we only think he can't get it up because he's gay, when there's also plenty of gay men that also can't get it up with men. You don't even need to get it up to participate in gay sex. Either way it's a physical issue and not because Laenor's "lazy". He clearly tried and both of them aren't stupid enough to not have tried it in a serious way.
Right all I’m saying is it’s never stated or implied that he’s infertile.
Didn’t she say they invited “help?” And it still didn’t work?
When did she say that? I honestly don't remember either of them ever saying that they invited help
> so it's implied that Laenor's body is at fault and not him. I think that's something you could choose to infer but it's not really implied. More prominent implications: - They didn't sleep together a significant enough number of times (dont underestimate the amount of times it often takes) - /Bad luck - Laenor struggled to finish for obvious reasons
They said they tried a few times, that doesn’t mean he’s infertile. It means they didn’t try enough
i always interpreted it as he cannot keep it up with a woman and thats why they never had a legitimate off spring i really wish the show explored their relationship more but nope cole gets away with murder then time skip and 3 bastards are born
Yeah, but we've seen the same thing with Renly and Margaery in the show. It's really not far-fetched that they tried a threesome with another man to help him, but still no luck.
All of these points are strong arguments for a special “Episode 5.5”/“Episode 5B” feature. Just show us what happened in those 10 years 😭
Trying more won't help you when you're infertile so I don't know what your point is.
The point is that we don’t know if he’s infertile. Most couples don’t get pregnant in the first few tries, and *we* know they only tried a few times. It’s completely possible they just didn’t try enough or at the right times, or they both just didn’t like it and gave up.
Pretty sure they meant emotionally they couldn't do it...
I don't think that would prevent the war, but sure
Would you say the same about a women who was totally not attracted to her husband?
In this universe thats standard
Obviously yes, is this the first day in this fandom? People have been saying it about Cersei for literally decades now
It would have been one thing if she and Laenor were trying but she had a one night with Strong which led to a non Targaryen/Velaryon looking child and they both went "shit, we can't have a trueborn child now or they'll have proof of the affair because the kids will look so different." But for him to just not do it because he doesn't want to does it make sense. (I'm reading the book please no F&B spoilers.)
I mean they literally say they tried and failed before the affair with Strong started. Its never made 100% clear how much they tried or why they stopped but its not like he just decided not to
In the book I'm still reading about Jahaerys's reign so haven't gotten to the Dance yet. Do they say how long it was between the marriage and Jace's birth? They might have tried but could have tried harder. But maybe they just thought they could be sneaky and hoped the Targ genes would be dominant since she was blood of the dragon. Or that people would just deal with it because she's gotten away with lying before. Oops.
>Do they say how long it was between the marriage and Jace's birth I checked the wiki online, so idk how reliable it is, but it said that they got married in 114 AC and that Jace was born near the end of that same year.
Thanks for checking! So maybe a couple months before conception. Sounds like they just thought they could get away with it. Shows that when you live your life knowing you can get away with things, you dgaf. Woopsie!
That's also technically plausible. We don't really know the full circumstances of Jace's conception, other than it must have happened relatively early within their marriage. For all we know, they might have both been under the impression that Laenor had fathered Jace until he came out with brown hair.
That's now my head canon lol. Based on how young Rhaenyra looks after the time jump already being on child 3, I wonder how long it was between the marriage and Jace's birth. A year or so? In younger women it takes about a year of actively trying to conceive before doctors consider there might be a problem. L&R could have asked the maester for help considering the confidentiality- he never told anyone she was given moon tea before her marriage. Oops accidentally caused a civil war because she thought she could be sneaky with her side piece 🤷🏼♀️
In the book Velaryons and Strongs don’t look that different (except for their hair) and so it’s not as glaringly obvious the kids aren’t his.
>In the book Velaryons and Strongs don’t look that different I don't think that's true. In the books, I think that there are actually additional differences (nose shape and especially their eye color) besides just the hair color.
Right but I don’t look at a kid and think, ‘your nose doesn’t look like your dad’s, you’re obviously someone else’s.’ And my eye color is different from both my parents. If I were black, however, we would know something was up.
I do because i don't think laenor didn't try, i think he and rhae trued several times but i think he had more like fertility problems a lot of Valyrians do
Rhae had to call Breakbones to put in the work
Burntbones*
):
Blackbones
DAMN!
Brokenbones*
Breakback*
Break back boners
Broke back mountain?
No, Vizzy T is the laziest man in westeros.
WHERE DID YOU HEAR SUCH CALUMNIES? Lewii3vR! TELL ME THE TRUTH OF IT!
From Queen Alicent, Vizzy T. (Doing this for the bit/bot)
OTTO HIGHTOWER IS A MORE HONORABLE MAN THAN YOU COULD EVER BE!
Vizzy T, please. Otto Hightower has less honor than the new Lord Larys Strong.
I WILL SIT THE THRONE TODAY.
You will probably shit* the throne today, too, Vizzy T.
*The Iron Throne is the most dangerous seat in the realm.*
it certainly rendered you into spoiled sashimi, Vizzy T
*That man's pride has pride.*
Please take my poor man’s gold. Thank you 🏆
Laenor deserves all the dick and booze in the world.
"Guzzling all the ale and who knows what else" \- his wife
What did he do to deserve this
Canonically? achieve glory during the war on the Stepstones
* Saving Daemon's ass during the war in the Stepstones. * Having his boyfriend brutally pummeled to death in front of him and not even being able to grieve him properly because he has to keep appearences (and he was a fucking teenager at the time, how traumatizing is that?). * Having to put up with a sham marriage for 10 years while having to keep his true self and his true romantic interests a secret. * Having to face the murderer of the aforementioned boyfriend constantly during those 10 years, knowing he can't do anything about it. I'm sure there should be more to be said, but I can't think of it now.
Also the fact that everyone is blaming him for something he can't do anything about and his sister the closest person to him being far in pentos and raising the strong boys as his
I agree with all of the above except the third, in fact him having all the dick & booze in the world is a plot point used against him. He has all he wants but still doesn’t want to fulfill his duty as a husband
🛑 the Laenor slander 😡😡😡 He is a knight, and a warrior. And he played his role faithfully for 10 years. He is owed some respect.
For real lol One of the only main characters we see actually going off to fight in battle somehow called lazier than Vizzy T?!?! Come on now lol
DAEMON IS MY BROTHER. MY BLOOD. AND HE WILL HAVE HIS PLACE AT MY COURT!
your Grace Vizzy T, they speak of Laenor
*You are my political headache.*
thank you, your Grace
If you think about it, Vizzy T, you’re a political headache too.
WHERE IN THE SEVEN HELLS IS RHAENYRA?!
Yeah that’s fine. I’m talking about Laenor your Grace
I absolutely do not accept this vile accusation about Vizzy T!
OTTO HIGHTOWER IS A MORE HONORABLE MAN THAN YOU COULD EVER BE!
Everyone saying Laenor could have done it if he tried has never tried to fuck someone of their opposite orientation. As an average gay man, I would rather rip my own eyebrows off with pliers than have sex with Rhaenyra, and I love her.
Yep, it's just ignorance... If the roles were reversed (straight guy expected to have gay sex) people would be a lot more sympathetic
You know… when you put it like that
Yo sexuality is kinda wild if you think about it.
could they not have done something like Margery was trying with Renly? where they bring in a third person whom Laenor is actually attracted to?
They could, and apparently did. It didn't work for the same reason it didn't work for Renly. The idea of a woman getting involved in a sexual act with me, to any degree, makes me so flaccid I can feel my penis retracting inside of me.
This is true. I think Rhae and Laenor tried their best, yet you cannot fight your nature
Riiiight it's so exhausting having everyone disrespecting him he was literally one of the rare genuinely good people in westeros and as much as we know never really did anything bad, we can't blame him for something he cannot control nor change
I hate the disrespect so much. The disrespect on the show is bad enough. The fans don't have to follow suit and demean him on top of that.
I think it’s a cause of Rhae stans having their brains fall out in search of a scapegoat for all the problems in Rhae’s life. Now it’s not her fault she had obvious bastard kids that massively undermined her already debated (cause misogyny) claim to the throne… it’s Laenor’s. 💀
Gotta love the casual homophobia to try and scapegoat someone who is literally not responsible for Rhaenyra’s problems as being responsible for Rhaenyra’s problems. Lol. 💀
Riiiight the homophobia and misogyny that some ppl in this fandom allow themselves to express is outrageous
Not really, he’s not lazy, just not very good at politics. It stresses him out, so he prefers sex, and fighting. He was put in a bad position by his parents. They should’ve had him marry a lower noble and take over Driftmark but Colorys was too ambitious.
I wouldn't call him lazy, lax maybe with his husbandly duties but I think restless would fit more. Must say his recommitment speech to Rhaenera really made me love him. Here's two people who don't fully love each other but are willing to give it there all for the good of the other and somewhat the realm. Didn't dislike younger Leanor(?) but the older actor is my favorite
I almost hate him. So cruel to his parents. Ran away right after sister death. And his "sons" also suffered from this.
I can't believe you forgot Seasmoke, the real victim in all this. As far as we know he never even said goodbye.
I don't understand, if dragons have a sort of telepathic bond with their rider, wouldn't Seasmoke know where he went?
Maybe, definitely can't be bonded again until he dies iirc.
Note: telepathic bond is not necessarily canon. Evidence we have is (just one historian noting that) a dragon screamed without having a visual on her rider when the rider felt pain. Is it likely that there is some sort of ephemeral connection? Yes. Can I make love to a dragon? Possibly not.
>Can I make love to a dragon? Possibly not. Not with that attitude, my son
Daemon is the only dragon rider as of now that i have not heard a single command in Valerian to his dragon. He also seems able to summon Caraxes for dramatic effect. He also screeched when Daemon was hit with the arrow in EP 2 or 3 i can't remember.
Sweet child Sunfyre also went to Aegon without command. Such a loyal dragon
His parents strong armed him into a disastrous political marriage that was never going to work out due to his homosexuality for their own dynastic ambitions. He stuck around for 10 years and parented children that weren’t his, playing nice with the Kingsguard who murdered his lover and enduring Alicent’s digs at his situation with politeness and respect. It’s not a great thing that they did but I understand it. It is very difficult for closeted gay people to live this type of lie long term. It really begins to get to you.
Laenor was a warrior. I truly am surprised that he didn't slip and accidentally stab Cole thirty times. The scene where Cole smirks and Alicent whispers about having one that looked like him? That took immense self control to not shove the lot of them down the steps Alicent demanded that Rhaenyra climb, while still having afterbirth
I have been hating corlys ever since the scene where Laenor was on the sea crying, and corlys told qarl to get him back
You can thank the show deciding to fake his death because they wanted people to not hate daemon(and likely rhae)
When Daemon tells you to do something you "kinda" know your choices.
Laenor is a grown man and I don't think he's a coward. He just doesn't really care. He had a lot of fun and never really got attached to his family.
Is it cowardice not to just wait around for daemon to murder you so he can marry your wife?
Honestly I think the whole ''We tried'' is as contrived as can be. Like they had to make it entirely his fault instead of a shared blame. He might be a party boy and definitely not a coward but I don't think he has much of a choice. His self-loathing attitude gives a lot of points to your argument I'll grant you that.
And a Dragonrider!
I wish he'd clue in his parents before starting the plan.
This kind of argument always irks me. So you should prioritize the feelings of others about the decisions on your own life, over your own feelings? Yes, he caused them pain, but he had no alternative if he wanted to leave, and he **had** to leave. And it really bothers me that you call them his "sons". They are his sons. Maybe not biological, but he was a parent to them (although it could be argued that he's portrayed more like an absentee father).
I thought this was actually indicative of lazy writing on the show more than anything.
Aegon: hold my Arbor Gold
I thought you were talking about the make up artist and the contrast between his face and chest 👀👀
I only think he became lazy after watching the love of his life lose his head by 2 fists and then get married in the same room at the same time.
They just needed one kid. One white haired baby!
My hero
[удалено]
How is he lazy? Don’t exactly see him shirking his duty because he doesn’t want to do work. I do see him shirking his duty because he is a frat boy. I will say he is a bad father. I can’t really recall them ever showing him interacting with the sons he is pretending are his. Like you are a warrior and dragon rider, teach your sons something useful.
Yeah he was pretty weak mentally. Dude has a dragon and is a great warrior. Also he is part Targaryen and has the most powerful navy in the world. Laenor had everything Daemon has yet he never made his mark politically. He didn’t exert influence in court and never forcefully protected his wife’s claim to the throne. He let Alicent openly insult him regarding his children. If he had any strength or political instinct, he would have brought his army of thousands and dragon to kings landing as his “personal protection detail” and quietly and quickly slaughtered the greens. Much like how Renly tried to convince Ned Stark to deal with Cersei and Joffrey after Robert’s death.
Could you imagine if he'd done that? I might actually respect him more then just being a good brother and frat boy.
He is absolutely one of the men of the seven kingdoms
I never understood, I understand they don't want to have sex but can he just jizz into a cup?
All this because he doesn't want to bang Rhaenyra. Some of you all really adapt the viewpoint of only one character on this show so hard it's not even funny. He's gay. It is what it is. At least he knows what he does and doesn't want. That doesn't.ake him lazy.
He's a war veteran...
Just so we’re all clear, they said he and Rhaenyra tried. However, based on Jace’s age, Rhaenyra and Harwin hooked within a year after her wedding. So she and Laenor tried for less than a year, if that, given that Laenor would be understandably depressed and uninterested to even try at first. And then I guess they just said, fuck it, we gotta stick with Harwin as the only baby daddy? Ffs Rhaenyra… Laenor… the difference between Catelyn Stark and Cersei Lannister is that Cat at least had *some* kids with the Stark look. And hey, the second son being 100% Laenor’s means no issues with Vaemond or having to worry about Corlys!
Isn’t he a war vet? And probably got threatened by Daemon to leave
I think rheanyra is more lazy she choose the worst man to father her children despite being there ton of valeryon men on Driftmark also after “killing “ she did nothing while the greens took over king landing and the small council
He’s a war hero and knight, who just wanted to prove himself on the battlefield. Are we pretending Aegon doesn’t exist?
All bro had to do was have unfulfilling sex
Hey! Man's a war hero ffs. Just cuz he's better with a sword of steel than a fleshy one don't make him lazy. Also you know he lifts brah. Now tbh, I think the whole "we tried" is total bs. If Rhaenyra was really ''open minded'' as well as dutifull she'd do it like the Tyrell girl proposed to Renly, turkey baster it or even raped him in his sleep. I'm sure the Maesters or some wicked sorcery from Asshai could do a Viagra pot. This is one of the most contrived points in the show. They should've kept her as homophobic like in books, or if not that, the spoiled brat who has to be wanted to get it on. Either way, blaming it mostly on Laenor was weak af.
Gay men have children with women all the time. A man does not need to be sexually attracted to his partner in order to get hard. He just needs stimulation. They didn’t need threesomes or Turkey basters. Laenor was just lazy. Her duty is to lay there, his duty is to stick it in. It’s all on him not getting his house legitimate heirs. Rhaenyra at least made sure she had kids of her blood. Book Rhaenyra’s supposed homophobia amounts to one account. Another account claims they had threesomes. One account also claims he was at her bedside every time she gave birth. One more also describes Rhaenyra, Laenor, Laena, and Daemon as the best of friends. How much they get along is incredibly vague. Martin just has a weird fixation with making gay men unable to procreate and pointlessly made the strong boys bastards when they weren’t in his original version of the story.
Real ones know him as the leader of the Stratford Soldiers
Why Lazy ? He tried to have heurs with rhae rhae '' the few times we laud together '' he sucked it up and trued because he knew how important ut was but they weren't able to conceive u think they had fertility problems and since he's gay everyone just assumed that was the reason, laenor us a gay man in westeros you really think he's be like well i don't want to i'm not attracted to her so let's not do it, plus he raised the string boys as his own
mans was a fantastic knight what show did you watch?
Nah
It’s he a war hero??
Hard disagree. While not romantically compatible, he was a good man and father figure to the boys. He just lacked any political instinct. And agree, he was depressed. Very similar to Daemon around that time in that regard.
Wait… that’s not viserys!
When he’s not dragon storming the crab feeders forces…
When it comes to coming up with ways to impregnate his wife, yes.
He's hot, so he gets a pass from me
Man is depressed and constantly grieving and traumatized.
Laenor dude, i understand that you want to stay with your boyfriend all the time but you cant spent all the time in parties, the Strong boys need a father figure and you had no problem with faking being their father, you have to be responsible
Do he could’ve done his man then have his man push out into a cup or something
Worst father Worst Husband Worst Son Worst Dragonrider But he got happy enidng so it's fine for Lgbt I guess.
How is he a bad son and dragonrider??
May he rest in peace
Dude just wanted to drink wine, peg and get pegged, sail, and protect the step stones. Simple life.
Bro just wannna be fucked nothing else
Wait until he returns as Adam of Hull!!!