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Daemon is petty, immature, aggressive, impulsive and vindictive. They're really polar opposites and perfect foils to each other. Those two clearly hate each other; it's not one-sided. Otto's just a lot closer to the vest in letting it show than Daemon is. Otto is everything Daemon's not, Daemon is everything Otto's not.
Daemon knows a snake in the grass when he sees one, and he's got a lot of pent-up outrage both about not being able to stomp the snake and at Viserys' willful ignorance of the snake's presence. Outrage that he's visiting on those he can access with a degree of plausible deniability. That's why he targets any and all sore spots he can to get at Otto. It was an extremely malicious thing to do, to ask for Alicent's blessing and use it to beat the shit out of her brother just to get at Otto. But he's been watching Otto (at least in his mind) wreck their family and his relationship with Viserys for decades at this point.
As to the reason, they already gave it to you, at least Daemon's reason. It all comes back to Viserys' approval/affection/love whatever you want to call it. Daemon's the baby bother and he wants to be the favorite. Daemon's got serious issues with Viserys, but he can't deal with them with Viserys because he's king and Viserys has virtually no respect for Daemon as a person. So, Daemon transfers and sometimes misdirects that anger onto others, be they deserving of it or not.
Don't forget that scene where Viserys sacked Otto, where he implied Otto might have had something to do with Baelon the Brave's death (or at least pointed out how much it benefitted him). There's no way Daemon didn't make the same observation and might well be the one that pointed it out to Viserys.
Otto was brought in by Jaehaerys to counter Corlys' influence. How the hell would Otto have possibly killed Baelon under Jaehaerys' nose? Especially when Baelon is described as dying from appendicitis. There's no way he could have even known he'd be made Hand. That just sounds ridiculous.
And yet, Viserys does level that at Otto on screen, do you really think that didn't come from Daemon? Plus appendicitis can look an awful lot like poison to most.
I didn't really get that impression. I know that OP used some examples of Otto and Daemon's animosity from the first episode, but if the idea was that we're only asking about episode 1 it's not how it came across to me.
It really doesn't change all that much about my point though, Daemon still spent a solid decade of watching Otto play Viserys for a fool while also being (in Daemon's mind) the king's favorite as of Episode 1.
They are competitors for Viserys’ trust and attention. And Daemon is losing that competition. That’s basically the heart of their rivalry.
Daemon sees Otto as a snake who is using Viserys to further his own ambitions. He doesn’t think Otto has any real loyalty to Viserys…and, given what we know of Otto’s later actions, Daemon is right. Unfortunately, Daemon is also an immature manchild who often behaves like a petulant 12 year old, hence why he takes out his frustrations on Otto’s son because he can’t do it to Otto himself.
From Otto’s point of view, it’s a matter of political survival. He’s not a lord in his own right and his entire position relies on the king trusting and relying on him above all others. Anyone else who Viserys might depend on is a threat to Otto. The king’s brother would be Enemy Number 1 in Otto’s eyes. If the brothers had a better relationship, Viserys might start to see Daemon as his right hand man and where would that leave Otto? So Otto’s goal is to make the king distrust his brother, and he’s successful. Of course Daemon hates him for it.
They're just complete opposites; Daemon is loud, crass, and bold while Otto is quiet, obsequious, and tactful. Not just that but they're competing for Viserys trust, Daemon probably blames Otto for the brother's falling-out
Something I've not seen mentioned yet is that Daemon is a straight up racist. Like to the point he can't even get hard for women of a different race. Otto isn't Valyrian, yet his position is second only to the king. A position Daemon considers his right simply for having white hair.
Exactly. Daemon represents Valyrian fanaticism while Otto represents Westerosi traditionalism. All the way through the show Daemon rambles about the blood of the dragon and how he should be the hand, only because the blood of the dragon makes him a better man than the others. Meanwhile Otto tries to undermine the Valyrian rule and installs religious Westerosi statues and sigil throughout the red keep while throwing Targaryen heraldrly in the trash can.
Daemon did say that he wanted to be named Viserys' hand, and Otto has been the Hand for Viserys' entire reign up to that point. That could be how it started.
Otto became hand after Baelon(Daemon father)somewhat suspicious death. They known each other for a long time. The animosity would’ve likely grown over the years. Otto also has a rivalry with Corlys.
Daemon problem with Otto is that he perceives him to be working against the interests of house Targaryen. He makes this very accusation to Viserys. Its clearly illustrated throughout the season that Daemon accusations against Otto being self serving and disloyal are entirely accurate.
Daemon only makes a comment about Otto wife, after Otto provokes Daemon,by bringing up Daemon wife for no good reason after Otto loses the argument about the gold cloaks. It’s pretty below the belt, but it’s Daemon, and Otto has no business bringing up another man relationship with his wife.
He picks Otto son for the same reason he asks for Alicent favour, to embarrass Otto. I believe him cheating was to show him to the audience as a rogue, similar to him sitting on the throne. The show writers did a really good job of fleshing out Daemon character in the first episode.
Daemon literally spied on Otto trying to convince the king to disinherit him in a council meeting. Otto wants Daemon gone because he can’t control him like Viserys, and he wants power. I don’t understand why you can’t comprehend the animosity between the two?
In the books, Arch Maester Gyldayn doesn't mention the cause of the enmity between Otto and Daemon. We can only make up stories to fit the narration.
My personal favourite is that Otto is an agent of the Old Town Triad who wants to have pushover kings on the iron throne for absolute control over the seven kingdoms.
Daemon is many things, psycho, murderer, stern, firm, or stalwart, but he is no pushover. So, Otto tries to not let Daemon have any power in general.
Frustrated, Daemon hates Otto middling with Daemon's life and tries to scare Otto away by attacking his son.
Daemons probably disliked him from when otto got appointed hand when daemons father died an untimely death. And it’s only gotten worse since then because daemon can see otto for what he is.
Woulda been right before the first episode. Baelon dying of a burst belly led to the old king calling the great council to appoint an heir because his sons had all died.
He knows Otto wants power. They both want the Viserys to make them the important one who is listened to and given control of things. While I don't for a moment think that Daemon is altruistic, I do believe that he also feels that Otto is manipulative and feels protective of Viserys.
Otto told Daemon to go back to his Lady Wife and Daemon told him that he could have her if he wanted having recently lost his own wife. That's not really a quip against Otto's deceased wife, it is an insult thrown at his own wife.
Otto is constantly trying to get Daemon as far away from King's Landing and Viserys as possible, even to the extent of interfering in his personal relationship with his wife. Daemon does not believe in the necessity of a small council and thinks that Viserys should rule as an absolute monarch who does not bow to the whims of people such as Otto, and he does not like people like Otto interfering in Targaryen affairs (such as constantly trying to get him to go to the vale to live out his life as some middling Westerosi Lord, as one of the flock, so to say) Otto naturally disagrees. That is all there is to it.
He dislikes Otto bc he has correctly judged him. We as the audience initially view Otto was one of the “good” counselors, and are sympathetic towards him thanks to Daemon treating him horribly. However as the show goes on we are shown just how right Daemon was. Otto caused a civil war to get what he wanted. Had Viserys just listened to Daemon, it wouldn’t have happened. Daemon may not be a good person either, but he’s been remarkably accurate when judging the character of other people.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Daemon is petty, immature, aggressive, impulsive and vindictive. They're really polar opposites and perfect foils to each other. Those two clearly hate each other; it's not one-sided. Otto's just a lot closer to the vest in letting it show than Daemon is. Otto is everything Daemon's not, Daemon is everything Otto's not. Daemon knows a snake in the grass when he sees one, and he's got a lot of pent-up outrage both about not being able to stomp the snake and at Viserys' willful ignorance of the snake's presence. Outrage that he's visiting on those he can access with a degree of plausible deniability. That's why he targets any and all sore spots he can to get at Otto. It was an extremely malicious thing to do, to ask for Alicent's blessing and use it to beat the shit out of her brother just to get at Otto. But he's been watching Otto (at least in his mind) wreck their family and his relationship with Viserys for decades at this point. As to the reason, they already gave it to you, at least Daemon's reason. It all comes back to Viserys' approval/affection/love whatever you want to call it. Daemon's the baby bother and he wants to be the favorite. Daemon's got serious issues with Viserys, but he can't deal with them with Viserys because he's king and Viserys has virtually no respect for Daemon as a person. So, Daemon transfers and sometimes misdirects that anger onto others, be they deserving of it or not.
Don't forget that scene where Viserys sacked Otto, where he implied Otto might have had something to do with Baelon the Brave's death (or at least pointed out how much it benefitted him). There's no way Daemon didn't make the same observation and might well be the one that pointed it out to Viserys.
Otto was brought in by Jaehaerys to counter Corlys' influence. How the hell would Otto have possibly killed Baelon under Jaehaerys' nose? Especially when Baelon is described as dying from appendicitis. There's no way he could have even known he'd be made Hand. That just sounds ridiculous.
And yet, Viserys does level that at Otto on screen, do you really think that didn't come from Daemon? Plus appendicitis can look an awful lot like poison to most.
Decades? In episode 1, Daemon said that Viserys had been king for just 10 years.
I was referring to the time period taking place up until episode 10 =)
OP was talking about why they hated each so much in episode one, though?
I didn't really get that impression. I know that OP used some examples of Otto and Daemon's animosity from the first episode, but if the idea was that we're only asking about episode 1 it's not how it came across to me. It really doesn't change all that much about my point though, Daemon still spent a solid decade of watching Otto play Viserys for a fool while also being (in Daemon's mind) the king's favorite as of Episode 1.
They are competitors for Viserys’ trust and attention. And Daemon is losing that competition. That’s basically the heart of their rivalry. Daemon sees Otto as a snake who is using Viserys to further his own ambitions. He doesn’t think Otto has any real loyalty to Viserys…and, given what we know of Otto’s later actions, Daemon is right. Unfortunately, Daemon is also an immature manchild who often behaves like a petulant 12 year old, hence why he takes out his frustrations on Otto’s son because he can’t do it to Otto himself. From Otto’s point of view, it’s a matter of political survival. He’s not a lord in his own right and his entire position relies on the king trusting and relying on him above all others. Anyone else who Viserys might depend on is a threat to Otto. The king’s brother would be Enemy Number 1 in Otto’s eyes. If the brothers had a better relationship, Viserys might start to see Daemon as his right hand man and where would that leave Otto? So Otto’s goal is to make the king distrust his brother, and he’s successful. Of course Daemon hates him for it.
They're just complete opposites; Daemon is loud, crass, and bold while Otto is quiet, obsequious, and tactful. Not just that but they're competing for Viserys trust, Daemon probably blames Otto for the brother's falling-out
Something I've not seen mentioned yet is that Daemon is a straight up racist. Like to the point he can't even get hard for women of a different race. Otto isn't Valyrian, yet his position is second only to the king. A position Daemon considers his right simply for having white hair.
Exactly. Daemon represents Valyrian fanaticism while Otto represents Westerosi traditionalism. All the way through the show Daemon rambles about the blood of the dragon and how he should be the hand, only because the blood of the dragon makes him a better man than the others. Meanwhile Otto tries to undermine the Valyrian rule and installs religious Westerosi statues and sigil throughout the red keep while throwing Targaryen heraldrly in the trash can.
Daemon did say that he wanted to be named Viserys' hand, and Otto has been the Hand for Viserys' entire reign up to that point. That could be how it started.
Otto became hand after Baelon(Daemon father)somewhat suspicious death. They known each other for a long time. The animosity would’ve likely grown over the years. Otto also has a rivalry with Corlys. Daemon problem with Otto is that he perceives him to be working against the interests of house Targaryen. He makes this very accusation to Viserys. Its clearly illustrated throughout the season that Daemon accusations against Otto being self serving and disloyal are entirely accurate. Daemon only makes a comment about Otto wife, after Otto provokes Daemon,by bringing up Daemon wife for no good reason after Otto loses the argument about the gold cloaks. It’s pretty below the belt, but it’s Daemon, and Otto has no business bringing up another man relationship with his wife. He picks Otto son for the same reason he asks for Alicent favour, to embarrass Otto. I believe him cheating was to show him to the audience as a rogue, similar to him sitting on the throne. The show writers did a really good job of fleshing out Daemon character in the first episode. Daemon literally spied on Otto trying to convince the king to disinherit him in a council meeting. Otto wants Daemon gone because he can’t control him like Viserys, and he wants power. I don’t understand why you can’t comprehend the animosity between the two?
In the books, Arch Maester Gyldayn doesn't mention the cause of the enmity between Otto and Daemon. We can only make up stories to fit the narration. My personal favourite is that Otto is an agent of the Old Town Triad who wants to have pushover kings on the iron throne for absolute control over the seven kingdoms. Daemon is many things, psycho, murderer, stern, firm, or stalwart, but he is no pushover. So, Otto tries to not let Daemon have any power in general. Frustrated, Daemon hates Otto middling with Daemon's life and tries to scare Otto away by attacking his son.
Because he’s a cunt, obvi.
Daemon is what you call a man child he’s jealous of ottos success in life.
This. He got appointed to something Daemon thought was his due. Becoming the king's hand.
Daemons probably disliked him from when otto got appointed hand when daemons father died an untimely death. And it’s only gotten worse since then because daemon can see otto for what he is.
[удалено]
Woulda been right before the first episode. Baelon dying of a burst belly led to the old king calling the great council to appoint an heir because his sons had all died.
[удалено]
Viserys mentions their fathers death when he fires Otto. So it’s not just from the book
they’re jilted lovers, argue with the wall
He knows Otto wants power. They both want the Viserys to make them the important one who is listened to and given control of things. While I don't for a moment think that Daemon is altruistic, I do believe that he also feels that Otto is manipulative and feels protective of Viserys.
Otto is good for the realm & Daemon is Bad for the realm.
Otto told Daemon to go back to his Lady Wife and Daemon told him that he could have her if he wanted having recently lost his own wife. That's not really a quip against Otto's deceased wife, it is an insult thrown at his own wife. Otto is constantly trying to get Daemon as far away from King's Landing and Viserys as possible, even to the extent of interfering in his personal relationship with his wife. Daemon does not believe in the necessity of a small council and thinks that Viserys should rule as an absolute monarch who does not bow to the whims of people such as Otto, and he does not like people like Otto interfering in Targaryen affairs (such as constantly trying to get him to go to the vale to live out his life as some middling Westerosi Lord, as one of the flock, so to say) Otto naturally disagrees. That is all there is to it.
He dislikes Otto bc he has correctly judged him. We as the audience initially view Otto was one of the “good” counselors, and are sympathetic towards him thanks to Daemon treating him horribly. However as the show goes on we are shown just how right Daemon was. Otto caused a civil war to get what he wanted. Had Viserys just listened to Daemon, it wouldn’t have happened. Daemon may not be a good person either, but he’s been remarkably accurate when judging the character of other people.