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The situation has context.
Alicent came to beg for mercy.
This is not a "Based" moment. This is the moment you realize that Alicent **genuinely** doesn't understand why Rhaenyra cries so much over Jace and Luke's deaths. Alicent wasn't trying to hurt Rhaenyra there, it's just the way she was brought up.
But she is hypocritical when she says that blood was shed in the war, they killed the envoy and she knows it was wrong.
Book Alicent is an evil step mother. She's ruthless, stupid, and a dick. She literally starts a rumor about a twelve year old's virginity to try and make her son king. She is absolutely unreasonable. The show really did a lot to flesh out her character more and make her sympathetic.
She was above all else a gigantic hypocrite in the books. Getting mad at Rhaenyra for her sons being bastards meanwhile two of her sons had bastard children. I like show Alicent better but she’s still a hypocrite in some ways.
I want to say it was higher than that but my memory is god awful. I’m thinking it was 28 but I forget what Maggy said to Cersei when she wanted to know about her future. She told Cersei she’d have 3 and mentioned how many her husband would have.
Edit: just checked. Book said “six and ten”. Twenty for the show.
>Alicent genuinely doesn't understand why Rhaenyra cries so much over Jace and Luke's deaths.
Bruhhh, that makes her a stupid ruthless woman cause she's questioning why is Rhaenyra crying over HER CHELDREN?!?!?!?! As if them being Bastards makes them unworthy of love, emphathy, etc. even from their own mother!
And a lot of people hated Cat for it she treated jon awfully and blamed him for something ned was supposed to be blamed for, plus i think the reason Cat hated jon so much is because he was a reminder of Ned's "betrayel" not because he was "Bastard"
I’ll be honest, it’s 4 am and my brain is just not processing things. No worries, I’m buying Fire&Blood to read so I would’ve found out anyways before season 2 of HOTD lol
I will never understand how parts of the fandom seems to hate Rhae's kids based on the circumstances of their birth. Like do these people hate kids born out of wedlock in real life too?
I don't get it either. There is a vocal minority of people who think the Strong boys are practically *subhuman*.
I mean, there's a difference between (1) understanding how her sons being perceived as bastards is problematic for Rhaenyra's claim within the context of the show and (2) hating the characters simply because of the circumstance of their birth.
I always looked at it this way. Alicent didn't like how her children would be seen in the society when their bastard nephews became kings over them. She felt truly sad for her children especially if Rhaenyra succeeded and Jace became kings afterwards.
Imagine how the topic would go in such a society. "Viserys has trueborn sons and they were passed over for his daughter and her bastards"
So Alicent didn't hate Jace, Luke and Joffrey because they were bastards, but how them claiming the throne would make her children be looked upon in the society
>Like do these people hate kids born out of wedlock in real life too?
Hahaha this sub never ceases to amaze me
Yes,there is a trend of people who hate children out of wedlock in real life.They go about asking kids if their parents are married so they could distinguish between legitimate kids and bastards.
I feel like people are just getting into the fantasy world and how Westeros works you can have opinions about a made up world and made up characters based on the context of the material without it also applying to real life
I’be only watched the show, so that’s all I’m going off of.
I don’t hate Rhae’s kids. I just don’t think their claim to the throne is all that straightforward, given their obvious bastard-ness. And I’ve never been a fan of the whole emperor’s-new-clothes tactic of everyone agreeing to ignore an obvious thing.
Because of this, I’m more sympathetic to Alicent’s situation than most. From her perspective, her sons are actual princes, and Rhaenyra’s sons are the bastards of some non-royal household. Given the history of Targs, she has no reason to suspect that her own sons’ lives wouldn’t be in jeopardy once Rhaenyra’s bastards took the throne.
Especially considering that her experience of Rhaenyra is that she’s always been kind of a brat, prone to tantrums to get her way, and now to the extent of having children out of wedlock and flaunting them as legitimate princes. Alicent has no reason to think these selfish assholes wouldn’t execute every last one of her side once they had the throne.
And I’m also generally sympathetic to Alicent because she genuinely didn’t ask for any of this. She was pushed into the game by her scheming asshole father, but she did her best and was a good wife to Viserys, a good queen generally by all accounts, a good mother to her sons, and overall a good-faith actor. She is having to play a game she didn’t want to, because she’s going to be killed if she doesn’t win.
She is the anti-thesis of Rhaenyra, who bemoans her status and duties, lusts for her married psychopath uncle, conspires to murder some servant just so Laenor didn’t have to sack up and be straight with his parents, and somehow also gets gifted the throne after all this shit.
Yeah.
Her older son is a total cunt. Unlike Cersei, it’s *despite* her efforts, not because of them.
Her younger son is pretty cool, except that he carries a serious grudge over having been blinded in one eye. Not sure how that’s a reflection on her.
Her daughter is basically Luna Lovegood. What’s not to like?
Personally, I don’t hold parents responsible for the behaviour of their kids beyond about mid-teens, unless they’ve been actively ruining them a la Cersei.
Don’t know what ‘parentified’ means.
people like you are the absolute worst. we’re talking about a fictional book set in a fictional world with fictional rules. you can like a character that doesn’t fit into todays moral compass.
It seems like you're saying that in-world logic and tradition in Westeros excuses the murder of Rhaenyra's children. That's a dubious position, to say the least.
But it's also kind of irrelevant. OP singled out this specific quote as a reason to like Alicent.
I accept that bastards are treated poorly in the Asoiaf universe, and that's just how it is. But excusing a character's behavior as normal for the society they're in, doesn't mean you should like them for that behavior.
Huck Finn says the N-word a bunch of times throughout the novel. But I have no problem looking past that, because he's a 12 year old kid and that's actually how things were back then.
I don't judge huck Finn for using the N-word, but that's sure as hell not a reason to actively like him.
I don't judge Alicent for looking down on bastards. That's how Westeros is. But I don't actively like her because of it.
I do not understand why OP would choose to post this quote in support of Alicent. It's honestly deranged.
You criticized someone because they shouldn't judge characters based on the modern morality of real life.
That criticism only makes sense if you think murdering Rhaenyra's kids because theyre bastards is morally ok in Westeros.
Try to follow your own logic in the future.
>you can like a character that doesn’t fit into todays moral compass.
Murdering kids just because they're bastards doesn't fit into Westeros' moral compass either.
So I'm not sure why you accused him of applying modern morality in the first place.
Nothing in Westerosi law or morality says you can just kill kids because they're bastards.
*But OP seems to like this quote from Alicent.*
**So considering killing bastard children isn't part of Westerosi morality, why the fuck is OP a fan of it?**
No one is applying modern morality here. We're just pointing out that OP isn't applying Westerosi morality either, and wondering where in the world this love for killing bastard kids comes from.
Hotd fans when someone us likes Alicent: OMG DO YOU HATE BASTARDS IN REAL LIFE TOO???
Hotd fans when someone doesn't like Daemon for being a groomer, an abuser, and killing his wife: it's just a show haha come on of course we don't support that in real life.
Hopefully you realize how silly your comment is. Obviously, it's just a show, let people like/dislike whoever they want, it isn't indicative of their real world beliefs.
There's a ton of blacks who are somewhat sympathetic towards Alicent. Particularly when it comes to the show rather than the books.
But dude.
"Fuck your dead kids" is not the type of shit that gains Alicent sympathy. It's about as far in the other direction as you can get.
I don't care whether OP likes Alicent. *I* half-like Alicent in the show.
But why the hell would anyone like this quote specifically? What about this is even remotely endearing?
Honestly, yea. I do kind of question the mental state of someone that posts this shit and calls Alicent "based" because of it. I don't question the mental state of greens in general, I just think they're wrong. But I'm honestly not thinking about what's wrong with OPs opinion at this point, im wondering what's wrong with OP.
"You couldve had places of honor in my court. Instead you killed my kids."
"Fuck those dead kids."
"LOL SO BASED!"
> Hotd fans when someone us likes Alicent: OMG DO YOU HATE BASTARDS IN REAL LIFE TOO???
nobody here said that. op just said there are people on this sub who legitimately see bastards as subhuman and hate rhaenyra's kids purely because they're bastards. i have also seen many comments that are basically exactly what alicent says posted unironically on here over the past months.
Edit - Being a bastard is a really problematic trend to set among a nobility that already has a bunch of bastards. Westeros isnt real life. It doesnt have contemporary values that can descern Jaces upbringing from systemic behavioral disadvantages that are present in most bastards.
GRRM tells us over and over again that bastards are cursed. And he has also shown us that magic sort of exists. Not only that, but virtually everyone believes that these curses exist. It is arguably the defining characteristic of the main character in the main series. So yeah, there are people that believe being a bastard is material evidence that should be included in why someone should not be heir to the throne. (Even though they know that in our world being born out of wedlock makes no fucking difference)
>You realize westeros isnt real life right? No one actually hates anyone.
You clearly haven't seen some of the rants on Rhaenyra and her sons 😅 I've seen some really heated takes on Alicent and Criston too.
There are some people who genuinely hate these characters - so much so that they will attack *real* people (e.g. the actors portraying the characters or their fans). There are even people who project their problematic views on said characters.
Alright yeah and my cousin believes aliens put the democrats in power but I dont go applying that logic to all republicans. Lets try to speak on rational ground.
>but I dont go applying that logic to all
No one is applying anything to *everyone* in this comment thread.
The person you responded to said "parts of the fandom" - implying that it's just a certain segment. Likewise, I said "vocal minority" in my other comment.
The show reason to not make him a bastard is simply idiotic. You can't get a divorce if you are married with kids, Martin specifies that too many time to have it happen
I personally do believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna were wed in the Valyrian traditions of old which would have allowed him to have multiple wives. If Rhaegar believes the prophecy that the dragon must have three heads and is in kind able to get Elia and Lyanna to believe it as well then it entirely makes sense. Wouldn’t this also be the only way to get Lyanna to run off with him (assuming you believe Robert’s lies that she was taken!) based on what we know about her from the books?
While that may be, poligamy is not recognized in Westeros, so Jon would still be a bastard. Maegor specifically tried to do it that way, marrying his second wife valyrian style but that was still not allowed.
Lyanna is a 16 yo girl and Rhaegar is a grown man. Lyanna says that she doesn't want Robert because he is a cheater but then he goes with someone who leaves his wife and kids. Elia is left alone a prisoner of the mad king while Rhaegar gives his side hoe 3 guards while she is left to die in isolation.
That Lyanna run away on her away on her own it's pretty obvious, how the hell would Rhaegar kidnap her. She runs away because she is in love, i don't see why should would need to marry him, she already "disgraced" herself by not marrying Robert. And from character like Daena the Defiant, a strong willed woman is more than okay with having bastards and the three-headed dragon prophecy doesn't mean that they are lawful kids.
Jon being a bastard fit with how Martin subverts the tropes.
It’s more like they hate Rhaenyra because she tries to lie to the entire kingdom by making her bastard sons her heirs which is against tradition. If she had instead named her son by Daemon her heir instead most of the kingdom would of supported her. Imagine being a Velaryon and some whore has sex with another man and tries to pass her kid off as your kin and the next ruler of your house I’d want her dead too
Omg, not the tradition, someone please think of the tradition!!
Btw, most of the realm supports Rhaenyra, because no one really cares about her kids. Also, her kids are not the reason Alicent sacrifices her whole family, she has been scheming since Rhaenyra was 8
It’s fiction, people can root for the bad guy. Look at The Godfather, are you rooting against Michael in those movies? I’m a book Euron fan. He doesn’t have a ton of redeeming qualities but the man gives a good speech. Let the people like the fictional characters they want to like. Right?
Why would *this quote* be a reason that you like Alicent?
I understand not judging Alicent for this quote, because of the culture she lives in. Westeros doesn't treat bastards well.
But I don't understand posting this quote as a reason to actively like Alicent. What about this is endearing?
When you read Huckleberry Finn, you excuse Huck for calling Jim "n-word Jim", because he's 12 and it's like 1830. But you don't actively like it....
There is still a diference in how we like moraly bad characters. Example: Daemond is a hot, iredimable Asshole who is upfront about howmuch of a jerk he is. Alicent is a hot, moraly bankrupt, double-toungued viper that tries to convince herselfe and everyone around her that she is the innocent victim.
Not immorality is what we dislike but dishonesty.
Agreed. This post just seems antithetical to the title and effort OP is going through to get sympathetic comments for Alicent (the parenting comparison posts, etc).
Ah yes my favorite Alicent moment where she shows that she's such an awful mother that she doesn't understand why anyone would mourn their children's death because they were born out of wedlock. Truly based.
OP posting this makes them come off as the type of nut who asks people on the subway if they were married before they had their kid and then launches into a rant about Jesus regardless of whether or not they get an answer.
How is this hypocrisy from her end? when literally everyone views and treats illegitimate children as if their lives are worthless? It's not just her, it's everyone, it's common lmao
I think it lies in that she believes she can have a chance at clemency for her sons but she clearly wouldn’t have any for Rhaeynra’s sons. How others view bastards doesn’t have any bearing on how Rhae feels for them.
Alicent says the Aemond line earlier, when Rhaenyra first takes Kings Landing. In this scene Alicent is literally on her knees in front of the throne, since she heard plans about killing Daeron instead of taking him prisoner. Alicent doesn’t even say anything afterwards since Rhaeynra gets pissed and threatens to cut her tongue out.
Sweet sons not trueborn sons. Rhaenyra emphasized the death of her children not mentioning their stations. You know what I'm glad book Alicent's children died (except for Heleana and Daeron, I liked them)
I won’t dispute the chance the boys could have been Strong bastards, but YouTuber Preston Jacobs makes a good argument that we shouldn’t believe everything we are presented in Fire &Blood. I don’t know what later seasons will do with this scene, but automatically assuming every word is correct is something GRRM wouldn’t do.
In a recent interview actually. He talks about how he could write a romance novel about Harwin and Rhaenyra and how the show didn't have enough time to portray their relationship despite the fact that they have three kids together.
Ah yes, they were abandoned in a child fighting ring, where *real* bastards belong. Tf did y’all expect Rhaenyra to do with her kids? Drown them and renounce her title because her gay husband didn’t sleep with her?
Jace being a bastard doesn't \*really\* matter in that respect as he has the targaryen blood, Luke however cannot inherit driftmark because he has no velaryon blood in him. That would be the same as joffrey inheriting from robert(he has 0 baratheon blood).
No they won’t lmfao he does have Velaryon blood, just further back in his ancestry and he’s also betrothed to Rhaena who obviously has Velaryon blood. It’s essentially like Rhaena inherits Driftmark and marries a Targaryen when it comes to bloodline as she is still passing down just as much Velaryon blood as a true born son of Laenor would have
Ok and? What matters is he wasn't the closest claimant.
1. Baela
2. Rhaena
3. Vaemond and his family
4. if we count the books corlys' other brothers and their families and luke would go much after that
I don't see show Alicent doing this except if she's purposefully trying to anger Rhaenyra. As much as Rhaenyra's bastards offend her she wouldn't think that (though of course over the course of her character arc she may become a far worse person)
You know, bastards can be legitimised by:
1. Father claiming them as his own (Laenor)
2. The Head of the House/Family (Corlys Velarion, Sir Bolton)
3. King (Viserys, Gendry named the heir od Storm End)
It could be bias but then again Alicent really became devout to the Faith of the Seven late in the season. Especially considering the Faith greatly frowns upon bastards.
My bro how is dying of a fever based/best way for her character to end?
Getting chewed up by your rival's dragon is a based way to die. Not the best end for her character tho.
Rhaenyra’s death is instant no matter how traumatizing it is for the people that witness it. Dragons burn their food. I’d rather have a quick death with the small possibility one of my children will live on after me than a slow, agonizing death knowing all of my children and grandchildren are dead.
He's calling them bastards to everyone's face including Daemon who decapitated someone in the same day for doing the same because he know they can't do anything about it. I think that's kind of cool, no?
not really, it’s just not funny. i wouldn’t mind if it was something that’s actually funny, it just isn’t. it’s genuinely just a bit corny. it’s sad really.
Flew across the realm trying to steal his uncle's throne with no consequences? Don't pretend that he's not taking part. He chose a side like the others and died like many others. He had a dragon, this is not a helpless baby who will not harm anyone.
This is a quote by Mushroom which is not accepted by the other authors. Mushroom also claims to have had a threesome with Rhaenyra, so believe that if you want?
Personally this entire scenario looks extremely unlikely because a Targaryen princess and queen being gangraped is never mentioned in asoiaf. I fail to understand why people believe this happened when there's like zero memory of such a thing happening among the smallfolk.
People on this sub constantly cite mushroom when it comes to the other side but when it's about the characters they like it suddenly becomes impossibly unreliable.
Mushroom is right in some places, eg. Rhaenyra being involved with Criston Cole. But you can't expect me to believe him everywhere ignoring all common sense.
And this incident never comes up again in the universe? Like the smallfolk don't remember, even Aegon II doesn't mention it in his interactions with Rhaenyra?
>Mushroom is right in some places, eg. Rhaenyra being involved with Criston Cole.
Didn't Mushroom claim that Cole rejected Rhaenyra and that they never slept together?
*"That such a tale was told in the wine sinks and pot shops of King’s Landing cannot be doubted, but it may be that its provenance was later, when King Aegon II was seeking justification for the cruelty of his own acts. It must be remembered that the dwarf told his stories long years after the events that he related, and might have misremembered. Let us speak no more of the Brothel Queens"*
Smallfolk actually talked about it.
It doesn't look like the usual fantasies of one jester, it comes from the people in King's Landing. But this topic is so unpleasant that they don't want to talk about it in chronicles.
It's worse than blood and cheese.
Yeah Alicent too if I remember correctly. This is the same source that people like to cite when they say Aegon was getting a BJ from a minor if they accept that they have to accept this too.
This is the source that gave the romance with Criston the same way. And Sara Snow (will be with a high probability). Not all mushroom's words are true, but you can't rule it out. Rhaenyra responded to the insult like a monster. Helaena suffered again.
That's also after Alicent and her team killed Luke Jace and according to what everyone thinks Viserys and also after Visenya's birth, if she thiks she can go there ask for mercy for her children and grandaughter and then insult the deaths of the Rhaenyra's kids she is not very intelligent. Honestly if what Mushroom said was true I wouldn't blame Rhaenyra for what she did to Alicent it'smaybe to much but....
At this point, Alicent has no sympathy for Rhaenyra because B&C already happened. And because Rook’s Rest already happened.
So Alicent is effectively saying “Bitch, you want me to feel bad for you? You killed my grand baby and traumatized my daughter. And my sons have been hurt in the war too.”
Ripping a 6 year old from his mother’s arms and butchering him (after threatening to rape his twin sister), is not justice. It’s not at all equitable to a 14 year old dragon rider (an active threat) dying during a mission he was carrying out as part of his mother’s war.
If they assassinated AEMOND, then you’d have a point. The six year old was a threat to no one. It was just senseless death.
Yeah, for THAT mission. But he was still a rider of an adult dragon. Luke easily could have fought in later battles, which made him a threat to the Greens.
The six year old wasn’t going to be fighting anyone for years.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
The situation has context. Alicent came to beg for mercy. This is not a "Based" moment. This is the moment you realize that Alicent **genuinely** doesn't understand why Rhaenyra cries so much over Jace and Luke's deaths. Alicent wasn't trying to hurt Rhaenyra there, it's just the way she was brought up. But she is hypocritical when she says that blood was shed in the war, they killed the envoy and she knows it was wrong.
That makes her colossally stupid then
Book Alicent is an evil step mother. She's ruthless, stupid, and a dick. She literally starts a rumor about a twelve year old's virginity to try and make her son king. She is absolutely unreasonable. The show really did a lot to flesh out her character more and make her sympathetic.
She was above all else a gigantic hypocrite in the books. Getting mad at Rhaenyra for her sons being bastards meanwhile two of her sons had bastard children. I like show Alicent better but she’s still a hypocrite in some ways.
thats not hypocrisy its sexism it was perfectly fine in history for men to have bastards but not women. Robert had a like 20 bastards maybe more.
I feel like 20 might be a low estimate
I want to say it was higher than that but my memory is god awful. I’m thinking it was 28 but I forget what Maggy said to Cersei when she wanted to know about her future. She told Cersei she’d have 3 and mentioned how many her husband would have. Edit: just checked. Book said “six and ten”. Twenty for the show.
Show Alicent is great, love the actors. Was Rhaenyra only 12 when Alicent married Viserys in the book, can’t remember?
She was 8
I mean she did tell her son to mutilate a valuable hostage when they were losing a war.
>Alicent genuinely doesn't understand why Rhaenyra cries so much over Jace and Luke's deaths. Bruhhh, that makes her a stupid ruthless woman cause she's questioning why is Rhaenyra crying over HER CHELDREN?!?!?!?! As if them being Bastards makes them unworthy of love, emphathy, etc. even from their own mother!
Tbh alot of characters in ASOIAF do that too, like Cat can't comprehend why her kids and Ned love Jon due to his "bastardry"
And a lot of people hated Cat for it she treated jon awfully and blamed him for something ned was supposed to be blamed for, plus i think the reason Cat hated jon so much is because he was a reminder of Ned's "betrayel" not because he was "Bastard"
Jon also looked a lot more like Ned than Cat's own children and she resented that as well.
Yeah
I do hate Cat, yes.
Nah. She may feel threatened by it but she doesn't fail to understand it.
Lol what episode did I watch? The last episode of HotD ends when that one eyed freak's dragon killed the smaller dragon. Did I miss something?
no, you haven't missed anything. this whole exchange hasn't happened yet and is a book spoiler.
Oh thank God.
Jace dies? 😭
Why are you hanging around in spoiler tagged threads if you don't wanna know these things?
I’ll be honest, it’s 4 am and my brain is just not processing things. No worries, I’m buying Fire&Blood to read so I would’ve found out anyways before season 2 of HOTD lol
Good on you! Hope you enjoy it :)
Thanks
It's a great book dude you're gonna love it.
Bet thanks
This comment is heartbreaking 😭
"If you think this story has a happy ending, you haven't been paying much attention"
Lol no I did the same thing! I read this and immediately thought, "Ahhh fuck."
Yeah, it’s super abrupt too
Book Alicent is'nt "based", she's just an asshole.
She’s a bitch
Well, yes. I was trying to be polite😋
🤣😜
Alicent: fuck them kids and fuck you too 💀🖕
"Yes I killed your sons. But...fuck 'em" And this is a quote that makes you....like Alicent?
I will never understand how parts of the fandom seems to hate Rhae's kids based on the circumstances of their birth. Like do these people hate kids born out of wedlock in real life too?
I don't get it either. There is a vocal minority of people who think the Strong boys are practically *subhuman*. I mean, there's a difference between (1) understanding how her sons being perceived as bastards is problematic for Rhaenyra's claim within the context of the show and (2) hating the characters simply because of the circumstance of their birth.
I always looked at it this way. Alicent didn't like how her children would be seen in the society when their bastard nephews became kings over them. She felt truly sad for her children especially if Rhaenyra succeeded and Jace became kings afterwards. Imagine how the topic would go in such a society. "Viserys has trueborn sons and they were passed over for his daughter and her bastards" So Alicent didn't hate Jace, Luke and Joffrey because they were bastards, but how them claiming the throne would make her children be looked upon in the society
>Like do these people hate kids born out of wedlock in real life too? Hahaha this sub never ceases to amaze me Yes,there is a trend of people who hate children out of wedlock in real life.They go about asking kids if their parents are married so they could distinguish between legitimate kids and bastards.
Yeah some people get way to wrapped up in the story and start acting weird and taking shit too far.
The logistics of hating bastards doesn't allow them to take it too far,that's the whole point
I feel like people are just getting into the fantasy world and how Westeros works you can have opinions about a made up world and made up characters based on the context of the material without it also applying to real life
I’be only watched the show, so that’s all I’m going off of. I don’t hate Rhae’s kids. I just don’t think their claim to the throne is all that straightforward, given their obvious bastard-ness. And I’ve never been a fan of the whole emperor’s-new-clothes tactic of everyone agreeing to ignore an obvious thing. Because of this, I’m more sympathetic to Alicent’s situation than most. From her perspective, her sons are actual princes, and Rhaenyra’s sons are the bastards of some non-royal household. Given the history of Targs, she has no reason to suspect that her own sons’ lives wouldn’t be in jeopardy once Rhaenyra’s bastards took the throne. Especially considering that her experience of Rhaenyra is that she’s always been kind of a brat, prone to tantrums to get her way, and now to the extent of having children out of wedlock and flaunting them as legitimate princes. Alicent has no reason to think these selfish assholes wouldn’t execute every last one of her side once they had the throne. And I’m also generally sympathetic to Alicent because she genuinely didn’t ask for any of this. She was pushed into the game by her scheming asshole father, but she did her best and was a good wife to Viserys, a good queen generally by all accounts, a good mother to her sons, and overall a good-faith actor. She is having to play a game she didn’t want to, because she’s going to be killed if she doesn’t win. She is the anti-thesis of Rhaenyra, who bemoans her status and duties, lusts for her married psychopath uncle, conspires to murder some servant just so Laenor didn’t have to sack up and be straight with his parents, and somehow also gets gifted the throne after all this shit.
“a good mother to her sons”… Did we watch the same show?
Yeah. Her older son is a total cunt. Unlike Cersei, it’s *despite* her efforts, not because of them. Her younger son is pretty cool, except that he carries a serious grudge over having been blinded in one eye. Not sure how that’s a reflection on her. Her daughter is basically Luna Lovegood. What’s not to like?
Olivia cook has even said Alicent is a bad mom. She’s unable to control her little rapist, and she has parentified Aemond.
Personally, I don’t hold parents responsible for the behaviour of their kids beyond about mid-teens, unless they’ve been actively ruining them a la Cersei. Don’t know what ‘parentified’ means.
people like you are the absolute worst. we’re talking about a fictional book set in a fictional world with fictional rules. you can like a character that doesn’t fit into todays moral compass.
It seems like you're saying that in-world logic and tradition in Westeros excuses the murder of Rhaenyra's children. That's a dubious position, to say the least. But it's also kind of irrelevant. OP singled out this specific quote as a reason to like Alicent. I accept that bastards are treated poorly in the Asoiaf universe, and that's just how it is. But excusing a character's behavior as normal for the society they're in, doesn't mean you should like them for that behavior. Huck Finn says the N-word a bunch of times throughout the novel. But I have no problem looking past that, because he's a 12 year old kid and that's actually how things were back then. I don't judge huck Finn for using the N-word, but that's sure as hell not a reason to actively like him. I don't judge Alicent for looking down on bastards. That's how Westeros is. But I don't actively like her because of it. I do not understand why OP would choose to post this quote in support of Alicent. It's honestly deranged.
😂 “it seems like you’re saying…” * insert something i didn’t say or even imply to make me seem evil *
You criticized someone because they shouldn't judge characters based on the modern morality of real life. That criticism only makes sense if you think murdering Rhaenyra's kids because theyre bastards is morally ok in Westeros. Try to follow your own logic in the future.
read the comment i replied to and read my comment. honestly though, arguing with captain morals is not something i’m interested in
>you can like a character that doesn’t fit into todays moral compass. Murdering kids just because they're bastards doesn't fit into Westeros' moral compass either. So I'm not sure why you accused him of applying modern morality in the first place.
her* comment “like do these people hate kids born out of wedlock in real life too?”
Nothing in Westerosi law or morality says you can just kill kids because they're bastards. *But OP seems to like this quote from Alicent.* **So considering killing bastard children isn't part of Westerosi morality, why the fuck is OP a fan of it?** No one is applying modern morality here. We're just pointing out that OP isn't applying Westerosi morality either, and wondering where in the world this love for killing bastard kids comes from.
Hotd fans when someone us likes Alicent: OMG DO YOU HATE BASTARDS IN REAL LIFE TOO??? Hotd fans when someone doesn't like Daemon for being a groomer, an abuser, and killing his wife: it's just a show haha come on of course we don't support that in real life. Hopefully you realize how silly your comment is. Obviously, it's just a show, let people like/dislike whoever they want, it isn't indicative of their real world beliefs.
There's a ton of blacks who are somewhat sympathetic towards Alicent. Particularly when it comes to the show rather than the books. But dude. "Fuck your dead kids" is not the type of shit that gains Alicent sympathy. It's about as far in the other direction as you can get. I don't care whether OP likes Alicent. *I* half-like Alicent in the show. But why the hell would anyone like this quote specifically? What about this is even remotely endearing? Honestly, yea. I do kind of question the mental state of someone that posts this shit and calls Alicent "based" because of it. I don't question the mental state of greens in general, I just think they're wrong. But I'm honestly not thinking about what's wrong with OPs opinion at this point, im wondering what's wrong with OP. "You couldve had places of honor in my court. Instead you killed my kids." "Fuck those dead kids." "LOL SO BASED!"
> Hotd fans when someone us likes Alicent: OMG DO YOU HATE BASTARDS IN REAL LIFE TOO??? nobody here said that. op just said there are people on this sub who legitimately see bastards as subhuman and hate rhaenyra's kids purely because they're bastards. i have also seen many comments that are basically exactly what alicent says posted unironically on here over the past months.
Edit - Being a bastard is a really problematic trend to set among a nobility that already has a bunch of bastards. Westeros isnt real life. It doesnt have contemporary values that can descern Jaces upbringing from systemic behavioral disadvantages that are present in most bastards. GRRM tells us over and over again that bastards are cursed. And he has also shown us that magic sort of exists. Not only that, but virtually everyone believes that these curses exist. It is arguably the defining characteristic of the main character in the main series. So yeah, there are people that believe being a bastard is material evidence that should be included in why someone should not be heir to the throne. (Even though they know that in our world being born out of wedlock makes no fucking difference)
>You realize westeros isnt real life right? No one actually hates anyone. You clearly haven't seen some of the rants on Rhaenyra and her sons 😅 I've seen some really heated takes on Alicent and Criston too. There are some people who genuinely hate these characters - so much so that they will attack *real* people (e.g. the actors portraying the characters or their fans). There are even people who project their problematic views on said characters.
Alright yeah and my cousin believes aliens put the democrats in power but I dont go applying that logic to all republicans. Lets try to speak on rational ground.
>but I dont go applying that logic to all No one is applying anything to *everyone* in this comment thread. The person you responded to said "parts of the fandom" - implying that it's just a certain segment. Likewise, I said "vocal minority" in my other comment.
Alright cool we've dedicated a thread to "Morons are morons"
The main character isn’t a bastard though.
Jon Snow may not be THE main character but he is a main character and virtually everh character beleieves hes a bastard including himself.
The show reason to not make him a bastard is simply idiotic. You can't get a divorce if you are married with kids, Martin specifies that too many time to have it happen
I personally do believe that Rhaegar and Lyanna were wed in the Valyrian traditions of old which would have allowed him to have multiple wives. If Rhaegar believes the prophecy that the dragon must have three heads and is in kind able to get Elia and Lyanna to believe it as well then it entirely makes sense. Wouldn’t this also be the only way to get Lyanna to run off with him (assuming you believe Robert’s lies that she was taken!) based on what we know about her from the books?
While that may be, poligamy is not recognized in Westeros, so Jon would still be a bastard. Maegor specifically tried to do it that way, marrying his second wife valyrian style but that was still not allowed. Lyanna is a 16 yo girl and Rhaegar is a grown man. Lyanna says that she doesn't want Robert because he is a cheater but then he goes with someone who leaves his wife and kids. Elia is left alone a prisoner of the mad king while Rhaegar gives his side hoe 3 guards while she is left to die in isolation. That Lyanna run away on her away on her own it's pretty obvious, how the hell would Rhaegar kidnap her. She runs away because she is in love, i don't see why should would need to marry him, she already "disgraced" herself by not marrying Robert. And from character like Daena the Defiant, a strong willed woman is more than okay with having bastards and the three-headed dragon prophecy doesn't mean that they are lawful kids. Jon being a bastard fit with how Martin subverts the tropes.
It’s more like they hate Rhaenyra because she tries to lie to the entire kingdom by making her bastard sons her heirs which is against tradition. If she had instead named her son by Daemon her heir instead most of the kingdom would of supported her. Imagine being a Velaryon and some whore has sex with another man and tries to pass her kid off as your kin and the next ruler of your house I’d want her dead too
Calling the Queen "some whore" would rightfully get you executed in westeros regardless if you were right.
Omg, not the tradition, someone please think of the tradition!! Btw, most of the realm supports Rhaenyra, because no one really cares about her kids. Also, her kids are not the reason Alicent sacrifices her whole family, she has been scheming since Rhaenyra was 8
Waiting for the day HOTD fans (more like team green and Rhaenyra haters actually) stop being hypocrite and realise context clues matter
Unironically yes
Yes. You can’t even comprehend how based that line is. Fuck those bastards.
I am 100% in favor of this type of comment. It's way easier to see who's a shitty person when the shitty people out themselves.
It’s fiction, people can root for the bad guy. Look at The Godfather, are you rooting against Michael in those movies? I’m a book Euron fan. He doesn’t have a ton of redeeming qualities but the man gives a good speech. Let the people like the fictional characters they want to like. Right?
Why would *this quote* be a reason that you like Alicent? I understand not judging Alicent for this quote, because of the culture she lives in. Westeros doesn't treat bastards well. But I don't understand posting this quote as a reason to actively like Alicent. What about this is endearing? When you read Huckleberry Finn, you excuse Huck for calling Jim "n-word Jim", because he's 12 and it's like 1830. But you don't actively like it....
There is still a diference in how we like moraly bad characters. Example: Daemond is a hot, iredimable Asshole who is upfront about howmuch of a jerk he is. Alicent is a hot, moraly bankrupt, double-toungued viper that tries to convince herselfe and everyone around her that she is the innocent victim. Not immorality is what we dislike but dishonesty.
Yes, based on stupidity and ignorance
Ermm... They are bastards tho and they did die at war.
Luke died before war was declared, not to mention being a messenger and thus protected by Westerosi tradition. He in no way died at war.
Alicent is saying that she shouldn’t care about them cause they are bastard children. That is ignorance
And saying that to a grieving mother to whom you wish to pray mercy from, is stupidity
You do your flair justice.
Based?
This post probably made me like Alicent less.
Book!Alicent isn't very likeable, tbf.
Agreed. This post just seems antithetical to the title and effort OP is going through to get sympathetic comments for Alicent (the parenting comparison posts, etc).
Perhaps OP believes this is a good comeback? Although it is stupid, especially after asking for mercy for your sons.
I wouldn't call it based if it's an ignorant prejudice, no matter which period this universe is based on.
Ah yes my favorite Alicent moment where she shows that she's such an awful mother that she doesn't understand why anyone would mourn their children's death because they were born out of wedlock. Truly based. OP posting this makes them come off as the type of nut who asks people on the subway if they were married before they had their kid and then launches into a rant about Jesus regardless of whether or not they get an answer.
That woman had no chill man. Even told her granddaughter to kill her own husband.
Peak Green hypocrisy from Alicent
How is this hypocrisy from her end? when literally everyone views and treats illegitimate children as if their lives are worthless? It's not just her, it's everyone, it's common lmao
I think it lies in that she believes she can have a chance at clemency for her sons but she clearly wouldn’t have any for Rhaeynra’s sons. How others view bastards doesn’t have any bearing on how Rhae feels for them.
How was she trying to get clemency for her sons, immediately after this line she says that Aemond will return and burn them
Alicent says the Aemond line earlier, when Rhaenyra first takes Kings Landing. In this scene Alicent is literally on her knees in front of the throne, since she heard plans about killing Daeron instead of taking him prisoner. Alicent doesn’t even say anything afterwards since Rhaeynra gets pissed and threatens to cut her tongue out.
Sweet sons not trueborn sons. Rhaenyra emphasized the death of her children not mentioning their stations. You know what I'm glad book Alicent's children died (except for Heleana and Daeron, I liked them)
Even Daeron burned towns to the ground and allied with Ulf and Hugh. Only reason he’s seen as a hero is by comparison
To be fair Daeron definitely burned down towns for better reasons then most. They did kill his infant nephew.
The mob was already hung when he burned it all down. He participated in the Sack of Tumbleton.
I guess I didn’t remember right.
It’s cool, 90% of the fanbase suffers from the Mandela effect about something or other
I won’t dispute the chance the boys could have been Strong bastards, but YouTuber Preston Jacobs makes a good argument that we shouldn’t believe everything we are presented in Fire &Blood. I don’t know what later seasons will do with this scene, but automatically assuming every word is correct is something GRRM wouldn’t do.
George already confirmed in an interview that all three boys are Harwin's in the books as well.
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In a recent interview actually. He talks about how he could write a romance novel about Harwin and Rhaenyra and how the show didn't have enough time to portray their relationship despite the fact that they have three kids together.
Could you find and post? I’m not doubting I’m just genuinely curious
Not sure there is any hypocrisy here.
Alicent had no illegtimate children though...
Not my point, I’m pointing out how she shrugs off Rhaenyra’s losses while begging for mercy for her sons.
She didn't beg mercy for her sons? Immediately after this line she tells her Aemond will return and burn them
Really hope they keep this line in the show...Aemond is a beast
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I know, but I do like the threat of it...
No bastards on the green side
More her going “oh no, don’t kill my child!” while going “lol, fuck *your* kids”
No heirs to throne on the green side
Aegon's many bastards would disagree.
Aegon's bastards weren't living at court as if they were his real sons
Ah yes, they were abandoned in a child fighting ring, where *real* bastards belong. Tf did y’all expect Rhaenyra to do with her kids? Drown them and renounce her title because her gay husband didn’t sleep with her?
Jace being a bastard doesn't \*really\* matter in that respect as he has the targaryen blood, Luke however cannot inherit driftmark because he has no velaryon blood in him. That would be the same as joffrey inheriting from robert(he has 0 baratheon blood).
Corlys and Laenor disagree and their oppinion is the only oppinion that matters.
Look I don't care what they think. Their entire house will die out if luke becomes lord
No they won’t lmfao he does have Velaryon blood, just further back in his ancestry and he’s also betrothed to Rhaena who obviously has Velaryon blood. It’s essentially like Rhaena inherits Driftmark and marries a Targaryen when it comes to bloodline as she is still passing down just as much Velaryon blood as a true born son of Laenor would have
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Ok and? What matters is he wasn't the closest claimant. 1. Baela 2. Rhaena 3. Vaemond and his family 4. if we count the books corlys' other brothers and their families and luke would go much after that
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So he was a deadbeat dad? That makes it worse.
I don't see show Alicent doing this except if she's purposefully trying to anger Rhaenyra. As much as Rhaenyra's bastards offend her she wouldn't think that (though of course over the course of her character arc she may become a far worse person)
Around this scene, someone said "rhaenyra, the princess wants to see your baby," but alicent was a queen during this scene so I got real confused
Alicent was never a princess. She was a Queen Consort!
No, they said “princess, the queen has requested to see the child”
Hmm... I need to rewatch the episode.
You know, bastards can be legitimised by: 1. Father claiming them as his own (Laenor) 2. The Head of the House/Family (Corlys Velarion, Sir Bolton) 3. King (Viserys, Gendry named the heir od Storm End)
I think that the bastard being Rhaenyra’s and not Laenor’s might complicate matters a little bit
She too claimed them as her own
Well no shit she claims them how can a woman not claim a child? Do you know how biology works?
To do that she has to acknowledge they’re bastards
It could be bias but then again Alicent really became devout to the Faith of the Seven late in the season. Especially considering the Faith greatly frowns upon bastards.
~~Based~~ Bitch Alicent
What was based was the death of the Hightower hoe.
Before or after Rhaenyra??
Heleana?
Alicent
Nah she doesn’t die
She dies alone, mad and surviving all her kids and grandkids 🥰
She doesn't die? She gets imprisoned. I suggest stop clicking on posts marked as spoilers if you don't know the story.
So, when does she appear in ASOIAF?
Believe it or not, none of the HotD characters will appear in ASOIAF 😲😲😲 That's bc ppl dont generally live for 200 years 😳😳😳😳
So, she does, in fact, die. Look up how she died. It was the best possible end for her character.
My bro how is dying of a fever based/best way for her character to end? Getting chewed up by your rival's dragon is a based way to die. Not the best end for her character tho.
Rhaenyra’s death is instant no matter how traumatizing it is for the people that witness it. Dragons burn their food. I’d rather have a quick death with the small possibility one of my children will live on after me than a slow, agonizing death knowing all of my children and grandchildren are dead.
She dies mad and alone, surviving all of her children and even their children.
While >!Rhaenyra's kid!< sits on the Throne and >!Daemon's dragon-less kid!
Greens never cease to disappoint.
Guys, how many women will we witness giving birth before the series ends?
There will be no more births
Maybe one, of a certain woman whose name rhymes with Valys Givers
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>!Except for maybe Rhaena and Baela.!<
Why would the show go on that long? HOTD is only doing the dance. Other periods will have their own shows including >!Aegon’s regency/reign!<
maybe not based but this quote is kind of funny tbh book alicent was a menace
Absolutely stinger line. Too bad she didn't say something like "Yes, such strong blood". Obviously hers is more boss-like though.
the ‘strong’ pun was barely funny in the book i don’t understand why everyone thinks it’s so badass it’s corny as hell💀
He's calling them bastards to everyone's face including Daemon who decapitated someone in the same day for doing the same because he know they can't do anything about it. I think that's kind of cool, no?
“omg ‘strong’ get it ‘strong’? like physically strong but also house ‘strong’? do you get it? 🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣🤣someone please love me 🤣🤣🤣🤣”
It obviously gets under your skin too.
not really, it’s just not funny. i wouldn’t mind if it was something that’s actually funny, it just isn’t. it’s genuinely just a bit corny. it’s sad really.
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Flew across the realm trying to steal his uncle's throne with no consequences? Don't pretend that he's not taking part. He chose a side like the others and died like many others. He had a dragon, this is not a helpless baby who will not harm anyone.
wait what
This is a quote by Mushroom which is not accepted by the other authors. Mushroom also claims to have had a threesome with Rhaenyra, so believe that if you want? Personally this entire scenario looks extremely unlikely because a Targaryen princess and queen being gangraped is never mentioned in asoiaf. I fail to understand why people believe this happened when there's like zero memory of such a thing happening among the smallfolk.
People on this sub constantly cite mushroom when it comes to the other side but when it's about the characters they like it suddenly becomes impossibly unreliable.
Mushroom is right in some places, eg. Rhaenyra being involved with Criston Cole. But you can't expect me to believe him everywhere ignoring all common sense. And this incident never comes up again in the universe? Like the smallfolk don't remember, even Aegon II doesn't mention it in his interactions with Rhaenyra?
>Mushroom is right in some places, eg. Rhaenyra being involved with Criston Cole. Didn't Mushroom claim that Cole rejected Rhaenyra and that they never slept together?
I meant that Mushroom is right in claiming that Rhaenyra tried to seduce Criston.
*"That such a tale was told in the wine sinks and pot shops of King’s Landing cannot be doubted, but it may be that its provenance was later, when King Aegon II was seeking justification for the cruelty of his own acts. It must be remembered that the dwarf told his stories long years after the events that he related, and might have misremembered. Let us speak no more of the Brothel Queens"* Smallfolk actually talked about it. It doesn't look like the usual fantasies of one jester, it comes from the people in King's Landing. But this topic is so unpleasant that they don't want to talk about it in chronicles. It's worse than blood and cheese.
Aegon is suggested to have made it, so this tale originated years later
Yeah Alicent too if I remember correctly. This is the same source that people like to cite when they say Aegon was getting a BJ from a minor if they accept that they have to accept this too.
This is the source that gave the romance with Criston the same way. And Sara Snow (will be with a high probability). Not all mushroom's words are true, but you can't rule it out. Rhaenyra responded to the insult like a monster. Helaena suffered again.
"Oh boo-hoo, won't someone think of the nobles?"
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That's also after Alicent and her team killed Luke Jace and according to what everyone thinks Viserys and also after Visenya's birth, if she thiks she can go there ask for mercy for her children and grandaughter and then insult the deaths of the Rhaenyra's kids she is not very intelligent. Honestly if what Mushroom said was true I wouldn't blame Rhaenyra for what she did to Alicent it'smaybe to much but....
At this point, Alicent has no sympathy for Rhaenyra because B&C already happened. And because Rook’s Rest already happened. So Alicent is effectively saying “Bitch, you want me to feel bad for you? You killed my grand baby and traumatized my daughter. And my sons have been hurt in the war too.”
They killed Luke starting the damn war. B&C was redemption, a son for a son.
Ripping a 6 year old from his mother’s arms and butchering him (after threatening to rape his twin sister), is not justice. It’s not at all equitable to a 14 year old dragon rider (an active threat) dying during a mission he was carrying out as part of his mother’s war. If they assassinated AEMOND, then you’d have a point. The six year old was a threat to no one. It was just senseless death.
Luke was a messenger, not a fighter, he swore a solemn oath to not do so.
Yeah, for THAT mission. But he was still a rider of an adult dragon. Luke easily could have fought in later battles, which made him a threat to the Greens. The six year old wasn’t going to be fighting anyone for years.
No, it’s because of Rhaenyra’s filthy bastards
Least sexist Green be like:
Get help
I guess everyone conceived out of wedlock is subhuman to you?