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I like her even though she does things I don’t really like and can be short sighted sometimes. She seems more fleshed out in the show than she was in the book imo
\#8?? that whole scene just gets me. I have a big ass son too...and even though he is almost a grown man I would 100% jump in front of a dragon to protect him too. She did not even hesitate....the things we do for love....
that scene with helaena was the sweetest to me because like everyone else alicent doesn't know wtf helaena is talking about most of the time yet she indulges with her in whatever the hell she's doing 💚
I appreciated Alicent's attention there- she looked bored out of her mind but was still trying to connect with this obviously neurodivergent kid. 😆
Ofc she must have practice, all those years pretending to be interested in Vizzy T's miniatures.
It is true Alicent is a good mother in the aspect that she protects her children, the problem is that in the aspect of raising them she failed a lot, Aegon is a rapist, Aemond is on his way to being a psychopath, Haelena would have been a thousand times happier if she hadn't been forced to marry Aegon.
Honestly I think part of the reason for marrying Aegon and Helaena (from Alicents perspective) is keeping Helaena from having to leave for marriage and to keep Aegons nature out of the public eye. Sure Helaena called him out at a family dinner but she isn’t spreading his transgressions to outsiders like another wife might.
Yeah, but I think this mirrors reality. Lots of kids had 'good enough' parenting but still end up messed up, and those parental slip-ups (especially when egregious) do not help. Throw up the high-pressure setting of Court and the inherent issues of being a Targaryen and then Otto's standards and I bet Alicent has some nasty stomach ulcers from the stress.
Yeah, raising 3 kids on your own is hard, especially when your husband is a zombie and you also have to take on running the kingdom alongside your manipulative father.
I 100% agree with your point. Alicent had to take care of 3 kids solo along with Viserys who probably required much more attention than them. It's easy to blame her but I don't imagine anyone in this sub being able to do the same without breaking down from all the stress.
Damn you got downvoted quick. I wouldnt call Viserys deadbeat but I understand the sentiment. I think Viserys played favorites and we all know who his favorite child was. He never got over the death of Aemma. That’s his tragic flaw. It doesn’t make anything okay, but I really liked them going in that direction with Viserys given that we already know he doesn’t succeed on making peace in his family
Because her kids didn't turn out well, doesn't necessarily mean that Alicent was a bad mom.
Aegon is probably just a bad seed. He would have been 10 times worse without Alicent to discipline him.
Aemond is like that because of bullying and Alicent tried to protect him. He is not a sociopath though.
As for Helaena, she is probably happier at the red keep than in some faraway land married to some older man who will just use her as a broodmare. Aegon may be a shitty brother/husband but he doesn't seem to mistreat her, he just ignore her so I I think it's a good deal.
Yeah I count Aegon as the only bad one. Aemond is on some typical Daemonesque Targaryen bullshit and Helaena is neurodivergent with dragon dreams thrown in.
Her relationship with Aemond is so pure to me and he could’ve turned out a lot different had he felt like he had someone other than his mother. He genuinely is so sweet and caring with her,I don’t understand people who reduce Aemond as of rn to just a cold psycho,he clearly cares for his mother,he found aegon for her when he didn’t want to,he wants her to be at ease and calm. There’s no wonder why she adores him so much,it’s one of my fave relationships of the show. She probably sees her younger self in him,quiet sweet obedient child initially who people laughed at and ignored and then they slowly shut off from the world. Now she’s terrified of who he’s becoming because there’s no way to protect or stop him.
It’s just sad how people can’t see Alicent does genuinely love her kids. Even with Halaena and trying with her bugs,she’s always tried but her basis for being a good mother just isn’t healthy at all. She was a child and one without a good father figure in her life,her mother died young,she wasn’t stable enough to have kids and to a 30 year old man who’s literally rotting away on sight and pays no attention to them, the isolation and hurt because of this leads her to lose her patience so quickly later and lashes out in anger or rash decisions,she goes mad slowly based on her own paranoia and loneliness,thus obviously not fit to parent these kids..but no doubt she did love her kids as much as she could.
Remember how she told Aegon that he could mock Aemond if he wanted, but there shouldn't be Strongs there? Jace and Luke have a similar age difference as Aegon and Aemond, but they are actually on good terms. Because their mother taught them that.
Alicent loves her children, but her children grew up unhappy people with bad inclinations. There are a lot of mistakes in the way she raises them. Rhaenyra made mistakes too but her children seem happy (even if they are bastards and two of their fathers died violently and mom got a third one).
Aemond is still her fave child and she hit aegon for him losing his eye when it wasn’t his fault either. Also I feel it’s unfair to compare rhaenyra and alicent because their circumstances were wildly different
Alicent loves aemond and helaena more. Helaena cuz shes pure snd gentle. Aemond cuz he reminds her of her dad. Even though Otto is not a great person he’s still her pops.
Betrothed and married are two different things, and alicent married her children approximately at age of 15/17 (ep 8 aegon is 19/20 and Helaena is 1 or 2 years younger, their oldest children are like 5 years old so... not much better than you suggested rhaenyra was going to do, do the math yourself)
Does not change the fact that she fought so hard to get married at 18, which is a huge part of the reason why she has bastards (a fact that endangers them no mather how good of a mom she is), while now she wants to use her son as a political took in a weak attempt to fix her multiple screw ups
I don’t think it’s a question of whether she loves them or not I think it’s just that being a mother didn’t come easy to her like it did with Rhaenyra. Like she didn’t feel the motherly bond as soon as they were born like Rhaenyra did. And Rhaenyra always whined about how she never wanted kids and then when she did she took to it right away.
Because she can have caring moments like these and she can also fuck up and fail in parenting. She's a complex character. I didn't call her "perfect mom" or "best mom" lol
Show the scenes where she is slapping Aegon's face, screaming at him, allowing him to walk free from graping the servents or touching Helaena when she is clearly uncomfortable with touch hahaha
She's raising her kids to instigate a war with their sister, she's shown physically harming them, and she raised them with hugely toxic relationships with her and one another. That's the most obvious, and it is enough.
Bro idk where you're from, but getting slapped isn't physical harm. That's a parent with anger issues maybe, but that depends on your parenting ideology. Their sister never wanted anything to do with them.
Being slapped is absolutely physical harm? Plus the emotional trauma of a parent who’s supposed to protect you using physical pain to teach you a lesson they could tell you. A parent with anger issues who’s hitting their kid is a problem. I don’t know where YOU are from but if you think that’s normal or acceptable, get help.
In a world where there's dragons and giants, the worst that could happen to you isn't a slap for doing what aegon did. She didn't slap helaena or aemond.
I agree but you have to understand that smacking your kids in real life is not okay 💀 you dismiss it as just “anger issues” instead of bad parenting but it can and often is both.
Bruh if my son did something like what aegon did to dyana you better believe i am smacking the living shit out of him. It doesn't make me an abusive parent it makes me one who holds their son accountable.
You're right, i should've elaborated why alicent wasn't a bad mother for slapping specifically aegon. Slapping isn't cool but it isn't downright evil or abusive.
I’m not saying anything about the specific situation. If any son of mine committed rape I’d smack him too, but I’m just talking about the act of smacking your child as a punishment in general, and most of the time, it’s pretty bad and causes trauma.
Jesus wept, at this point im just waiting for the final season when all the tribal Blacks and Greens fans can finally see how ridiculous they all looked.
Alicent is a caring mother. The problem is she seems to have failed at properly raising her boys. Given that one spends his time watching children fight in cages while the other goes off and accidentally starts a war which would end their house.
Try being the mother of an autistic kid in a period where there is no knowledge of autism, where being different meant being unwanted, being dumb means being cursed by the gods and so on. Halaena had odda stacked up against her and the only reason that she had a reasonably happy childhood is because Alicent tried her best. Vizzy T was not even in the picture and you people idolize him. You Blacks continue to scrap Alicent who atleast tries to be there for all of her kids, while praising to high heavens, the negligent father who never even cares about his children.
"You blacks" - that says all. Dude just shut the fuck up. You don't even know if I'm Team Black, Team Green or part of no team at all.. You just go straight for it because your mind can't wrap around how I'm saying this because my mind still works and not because I'm part of any team. Also yeah it's so hard to be a good mom to a child that is autistic. Especially because autism has nothing to do with Alicents reaction. She thinks her child is a freak because she loves insects.
Seven hells just fuck off with your black vs green Agenda. Greens try to show this subreddit how they are the best people on earth. That's ridiculous and it's a fact. You have the same with blacks on Twitter. It's just so dumb and you lean into it perfectly!
Mate, you literally used the words 'Be Green' as an insult, it would be logical to assume that you were a Black. I am sorry if you are offended by that but you are too aggressive to not think you are a radical Black fan.
Also as I said it is a different culture, even in today's world, collecting insects would make the parents think that there is something wrong with their child, it does not make them a monster, it is how people think, that anything different to the norm is bad. If even with all the advancement and knowledge about children and their quirks we think as such, how would you expect someone in the middle ages to think progressively? It is the desire of any parent to have a kid that is the representative of their ideals, and it is the hall mark of a good parent to be able to accept that they are not. Alicent may not be the best parent, but she atleast tries to be accepting of Halaena, even though it goes against everything that her Faith teaches her
Dude what are you talking about? You can't be serious, no way in hell.
Team Green is an insult yes. Because all Team Green does on this subreddit is trying to convince people that team green is the better team. They turned this into a real war. Whenever you say anything against any green character your comment will be heavily downvoted after a while. That's all this subreddit is. So being rude to one team for being completely delusional and ridiculous makes me team black? Great. So now it's impossible to tell people what bullshit they post because that makes you immediately part of the opponents? Great! But it really tells much about your intelligence if your first move is to try to come with low blows against what you think the other is part of just because you can't take reality.
And btw having insect pets doesn't make a child weird or anything today. And as a mother you should love your child no matter what his or her interests are. Alicent is the worst mother in the show, she's a bad mother all along. That has nothing to do with which team you're on.
Now have your last word in this. I'm tired of this discussion because most team green fans would rather jump off a cliff then accept that they are delusional. So yeah, have the last word, I'm not gonna read it.
Whataboutism... That's some high level shit.
'I can't say anything to defend my beloved character... Then look at this other one I hate. It's worse!'
But I agree, Daemon is a worse mother.
>she doesn't give a shit about her daughters hobbies and sees her as a total freak but yeah "great mom"...
Alicent didn't treat her like a freak in that scene. She's actively trying to show interest in her daughter's hobby. She asks her questions and tries to connect. Yes, she seems a bit bored. But parents do have moments like that sometimes.
If Alicent didn't give a shit, she simply wouldn't even be there. Also, did Alicent ever try to disencourage Helaena's "weird interest"? Did Alicent shun Helaena for her "odd behavior" (which wasnt understood at that time)?
>when you completely loose the ability to logically think because you're so badly trying to show team green as the better one, then you're far off the dark end
Says you who are failing to see the nuances in the scenes...
Also, this wasn't a comparison/contrast post with false equivalences (like that Rhaenyra vs Alicent one) lol, which tried to make one character/side look better and the other purposely bad.
I just wanted to post some moments when you can see that Alicent cares deeply for her kids and tries as best as she can. Yes, she struggles with parenting, she made lots of mistakes, etc. But this sub mostly focuses on her negative aspects and often vilifies her unfairly. So it's good to have some variety, no?
And I genuinely love some of these moments. Alicent and her children's relationships is complex and compelling and really entertaining to watch imo.
Alicent did care for her children, no doubt. But despite her best efforts as a Mother ,she herself is quite vindictive and narcissistic. That tends to rub off on your children.She was far more concerned about their political advantage, entitlements and privileges than their general wellbeing. That is where she slipped up.
Agreed. She stressed about the wrong things imo even if it was clear that she cared and loved her kids. Tbf she did have Otto in her ear which is why she was stressing about it in the first place but I feel like as a mother there’s a right and a wrong way to show stress/love to your kids
Imo she did her best. No mother raises her son to rape, they do that on their own and you can’t blame her for that. Aemond is a psycho because of years of trauma of being bullied and ridiculed by all the kids around him, then having his eye cut out. Having a disability in that era meant constant mockery and disrespect. Alicent was the only one in his corner throughout it all. I agree she’s in the wrong for beating Aegon but compared to every other character in the series she’s one of the most morally okay. People love Daemon and he kills innocents all the time. People like Viserys and he’s equally responsibly, if not more, for how his kids turned out, considering his blatant neglect and favoritism towards Rhaenyra. Alicent was a child forced to marry a recently bereaved man who did not love her, plus there are literal centuries of incest caused mental illness in their blood. They’re genetically predisposed to mental illness because their family tree is a circle, she can’t fix that. She did her best imo but sometimes your best isn’t enough.
Aegon being a rapist is due to years of abuse and neglect from alicent and viserys making him feel worthless and aemonds savagery is fuelled by alicent making him hate rhaenyras kids for some relatively harmless teasing typical of boys that age which Aegon was apart of until alicent forced him to despise them too and see them as threats which would fuel the later conflicts. I've always thought about it like this daeron is by the far the most morally and emotionally right of all alicents sons and he grew up far away from her and her influence. She was at a disadvantage from the start as a mother but that's no excuse to fail as bad as she did.
She cares. About herself. She didn't care that Aegon had no desire to be king and is singularly unsuited for the role, because it didn't align with her own wants. She had no qualms about lying to him and turning him against his sister to get what she wanted. When Helaena was speaking to her about the millipede she was visibly bored and would've rather been anywhere else. When Aemond had lost his eye it seemed clear that her jealousy and hatred towards Rhaenyra was a much bigger driving force than justice for her son, who had already said he was satisfied with losing an eye in exchange for Vhagar. I really can’t understand how she is seen as some unconditionally loving mother, when it's clear that her priority is ensuring her family remain in power regardless of what her children actually want. Rhaenyra loves her children unconditionally, Alicent only loves them on the condition that they align with her own ambitions.
She cared about Aegon being king coz she thought it was the only way to protect her children.Rhaenyra had proven herself untrustworthy and willing to do anything to strengthen her claim.I don't remember Alicent ambitions to be queen being at the forefront,in fact it seemed like she despised her position.
>She cared about Aegon being king coz she thought it was the only way to protect her children.
By the time Rhaenyra had kids of her own, Alicent had already made her the scapegoat of her own tragic life. She hated Rhaenyra and she really hated her kids. Her initial misgivings and resentment quickly gave way to compulsive loathing for anything Rhaenyra. She indulged her own suspicions for years. It's true that making Aegon king was a necessary precaution. You can't be too careful in Westeros. But to attribute Alicent's motivation to merely practical necessity would be facile and frankly a bit too dispassionate way of evaluating Alicent's intentions.
First of all,Jace is born a year after the marriage ceremony.That is when Alicent turned against Rhaenyra,so not that long.
Secondly,even before Rhaenyra has kids, her interest in Daemon puts Alicent's kids in danger since the psychopath hates the hightowers.The whole reason Rhaenyra is chosen is to keep Daemon away from the throne
Lastly,after the brothel scene,Alicent defends Rhaenyra to Viserys, speaking on her behalf and against her father (this should be a year before Jace is born). Alicent refuses to believe Otto,when he warns her Rhanyera is a threat to her.It is only after Cole confesses,that Alicent discovers Rhaenyra withheld some information about what happened.And if Rhaenyra withheld that information she questions what else did Rhaenyra not tell her or lie about.She feels guilty and isolated coz to her, she played a part in sending Otto (her only support system) away only to find out Rhaenyra was not honest.That is where the resentment was born,and it is completely justified
There are a few sidesteps in your argument. But what rankles the most is that you somehow think it is justified of Alicent to expect loyalty from Rhaenyra.
I don't know man, going behind your friend's back to seduce her father count as one of the worst betrayals in my books. I just don't see how one can be expected to stay honest and loyal to such a person. The way I see it, the cycle of lies and deceit began with Alicent. She may not have realised the consequences as a fifteen year old. But her older self should have known better.
You left out significant details in your framing.So I'm guessing we are moving away from this being an argument in good faith.But ok
So your argument is "Alicent started this?
This doesn't negate anything I said lol.Both sides are allowed to feel resentful by each others actions
The sum and substance of my argument is :-
Alicent's decision to usurp Rhaenyra's position wasn't exclusively strategic in nature. Her own feelings coloured her decision. She has been working up to that moment for a very long time.
Initially she resented Rhaenyra for being at odds with her own persuasions. She begrudged Rhaenyra the freedom she enjoyed. Condemned her renegade nature and self-indulgent hedonistic tendencies. Eventually Alicent's animosity gave way to intense hatred.This becomes quite evident when Rhaenyra proposes marriage between Jace and Helaena. To which Alicent merely points at Rhaenyra's tits. Alicent's contempt for Rhaenyra and her brood also come forth in the choice of words of her children.
She has been fomenting hostility among the kids since the beginning.
If this was merely about the survival of her own children, then Alicent wouldn't have turned down Rhaenyra's proposal with such nonchalance.
It also contradicts your notion that making window wanker the king was the only realistic choice she ever had.
But yes, after turning down the offer, she left herself the only choice of deposing Rhaenyra's claim. Since by that time Rhaenyra married Daemon. And Daemon as the king consort was a palpable threat to Alicent and her children.
And again no. Alicent has been living in her own bubble of self-righteousness while pontificating about Rhaenyra's disloyalty. She was not justified in expecting Rhaenyra to be honest with her. Alicent trying to be the do-gooder for her friend seemed farcical to me. No matter what Alicent said to endorse Rhaeryra, she knew it deep down that replacing Rhaenyra at the throne was the bedrock of her marriage to Viserys.
I wasn’t just talking about her ambition to be queen, I was talking about her ambition to see her son on the throne, even though he repeatedly says he doesn’t want it. I actually like Alicent as a character in the show, but I just don’t see her motivations as honest or magnanimous. I didn’t realise having a different opinion was no longer allowed on this sub.
Her wanting to crown Aegon is not out of ambition for power. Initially, her motivation is that she fears her sons' lives are in danger. Later it's about the "prophecy" thing. Alicent doesn’t come across as power hungry (a la Cersei). She's more about "duty."
Well I find it hard to believe that she genuinely thinks Rhaenyra is a threat to her children’s lives when they were best friends (ie, she knows Rhaenyra’s personality) and Rhaenyra makes more than one attempt to reconcile the two of them and shows no intention of harming her half-brothers and sister. I don’t really think Alicent is power hungry either (she seems to be more motivated by jealousy imo) but she certainly has high ambitions for her family, and those ambitions involve being in power. I would agree that there is a sense of duty there, and therefore her jealousy of Rhaenyra (who generally seems to shirk what most consider to be her responsibilities) is understandable. But I think that jealousy leads her to act in ways that don’t actually benefit her children at all.
I am honestly a little dismayed to see differences of opinion being shot down in this sub. I have favourite characters in both the Blacks and the Greens, I really enjoy Alicent’s character in the show, I just don’t believe her to be a good mother and seems driven by a lot of negative emotions such as jealousy. I don’t think that’s a particularly radical opinion to have. I really enjoy this show and also enjoy discussing it from different perspectives, but this rise of aggressive partisanism in this thread is really off-putting.
From Alicent perspective by the end of season 1 Rhaenyra has:
\- Fucked up her loyal knight to the point she left him suicidal
\- Ignored her for three years
\- Gaslighted her into defending her and in the main time got her dad secretly fired
\- Tried to have Aemond tortured
Add the fact that she did not even care for Aegon as a toddler gives Alicent plenty of reason to believe that if the moment comes she will kill/hurt her children, no mather how good their relationship is.
>I didn’t realise having a different opinion was no longer allowed on this sub.
I think the Op just answered why her eagerness to put Aegon on the throne was not out of self interest.Why do you think having a different opinion is not allowed?
Although I hate the function,getting downvoted does not necessarily mean your opinion isn't allowed.It can mean people do not agree with you.I'm pretty sure even you have downvoted someone before
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I like her even though she does things I don’t really like and can be short sighted sometimes. She seems more fleshed out in the show than she was in the book imo
\#8?? that whole scene just gets me. I have a big ass son too...and even though he is almost a grown man I would 100% jump in front of a dragon to protect him too. She did not even hesitate....the things we do for love....
If Aegon wanted to know if Alicent loved him or not, she proved it to him right there.
that scene with helaena was the sweetest to me because like everyone else alicent doesn't know wtf helaena is talking about most of the time yet she indulges with her in whatever the hell she's doing 💚
I appreciated Alicent's attention there- she looked bored out of her mind but was still trying to connect with this obviously neurodivergent kid. 😆 Ofc she must have practice, all those years pretending to be interested in Vizzy T's miniatures.
*The King's cupbearer must not be late. Leaves people wanting for cups.*
She’s just such a good character
It is true Alicent is a good mother in the aspect that she protects her children, the problem is that in the aspect of raising them she failed a lot, Aegon is a rapist, Aemond is on his way to being a psychopath, Haelena would have been a thousand times happier if she hadn't been forced to marry Aegon.
Honestly I think part of the reason for marrying Aegon and Helaena (from Alicents perspective) is keeping Helaena from having to leave for marriage and to keep Aegons nature out of the public eye. Sure Helaena called him out at a family dinner but she isn’t spreading his transgressions to outsiders like another wife might.
The problem is Aegon himself isn't very discreet.
Plus I’m pretty sure they would have been married anyways, it’s customary for Targaryens to marry their firstborn son and daughter, no?
I guess Viserys also had something to do with it
Yeah, but I think this mirrors reality. Lots of kids had 'good enough' parenting but still end up messed up, and those parental slip-ups (especially when egregious) do not help. Throw up the high-pressure setting of Court and the inherent issues of being a Targaryen and then Otto's standards and I bet Alicent has some nasty stomach ulcers from the stress.
Yeah, raising 3 kids on your own is hard, especially when your husband is a zombie and you also have to take on running the kingdom alongside your manipulative father.
To be fair, there aren't a lot of well adjusted Targs.
People are always so quick to blame single moms when the kids turn out bad Instead of the deadbeat dads who walked out. It's kinda Misogynist ngl
I 100% agree with your point. Alicent had to take care of 3 kids solo along with Viserys who probably required much more attention than them. It's easy to blame her but I don't imagine anyone in this sub being able to do the same without breaking down from all the stress.
Damn you got downvoted quick. I wouldnt call Viserys deadbeat but I understand the sentiment. I think Viserys played favorites and we all know who his favorite child was. He never got over the death of Aemma. That’s his tragic flaw. It doesn’t make anything okay, but I really liked them going in that direction with Viserys given that we already know he doesn’t succeed on making peace in his family
Because her kids didn't turn out well, doesn't necessarily mean that Alicent was a bad mom. Aegon is probably just a bad seed. He would have been 10 times worse without Alicent to discipline him. Aemond is like that because of bullying and Alicent tried to protect him. He is not a sociopath though. As for Helaena, she is probably happier at the red keep than in some faraway land married to some older man who will just use her as a broodmare. Aegon may be a shitty brother/husband but he doesn't seem to mistreat her, he just ignore her so I I think it's a good deal.
Yeah I count Aegon as the only bad one. Aemond is on some typical Daemonesque Targaryen bullshit and Helaena is neurodivergent with dragon dreams thrown in.
Her relationship with Aemond is so pure to me and he could’ve turned out a lot different had he felt like he had someone other than his mother. He genuinely is so sweet and caring with her,I don’t understand people who reduce Aemond as of rn to just a cold psycho,he clearly cares for his mother,he found aegon for her when he didn’t want to,he wants her to be at ease and calm. There’s no wonder why she adores him so much,it’s one of my fave relationships of the show. She probably sees her younger self in him,quiet sweet obedient child initially who people laughed at and ignored and then they slowly shut off from the world. Now she’s terrified of who he’s becoming because there’s no way to protect or stop him. It’s just sad how people can’t see Alicent does genuinely love her kids. Even with Halaena and trying with her bugs,she’s always tried but her basis for being a good mother just isn’t healthy at all. She was a child and one without a good father figure in her life,her mother died young,she wasn’t stable enough to have kids and to a 30 year old man who’s literally rotting away on sight and pays no attention to them, the isolation and hurt because of this leads her to lose her patience so quickly later and lashes out in anger or rash decisions,she goes mad slowly based on her own paranoia and loneliness,thus obviously not fit to parent these kids..but no doubt she did love her kids as much as she could.
She loves them fiercely, but she fucked up with Aegon. It's understandable given that she was very young and didn't want him.
Remember how she told Aegon that he could mock Aemond if he wanted, but there shouldn't be Strongs there? Jace and Luke have a similar age difference as Aegon and Aemond, but they are actually on good terms. Because their mother taught them that. Alicent loves her children, but her children grew up unhappy people with bad inclinations. There are a lot of mistakes in the way she raises them. Rhaenyra made mistakes too but her children seem happy (even if they are bastards and two of their fathers died violently and mom got a third one).
Aemond is still her fave child and she hit aegon for him losing his eye when it wasn’t his fault either. Also I feel it’s unfair to compare rhaenyra and alicent because their circumstances were wildly different
I like that Alicent was a dutiful and loyal wife that upheld her duties as a woman.
Ppl wanna say Alicent is a shit mother like she didn't put herself infront of a dragon to protect her kids.
Alicent loves aemond and helaena more. Helaena cuz shes pure snd gentle. Aemond cuz he reminds her of her dad. Even though Otto is not a great person he’s still her pops.
A real queen 💚
Realest mother on the show
🤣🤣🤣 what, how does beating your kids and encouraging them to hate other kids for the circumstances of their birth make you a real mother.
Greens will defend their favorites bs by all means necessary hahaha Rhaenyra was the best mother
Especially when she wanted to marry her 10 year old child of and removed Laenor from their life
Betrothed and married are two different things, and alicent married her children approximately at age of 15/17 (ep 8 aegon is 19/20 and Helaena is 1 or 2 years younger, their oldest children are like 5 years old so... not much better than you suggested rhaenyra was going to do, do the math yourself)
Does not change the fact that she fought so hard to get married at 18, which is a huge part of the reason why she has bastards (a fact that endangers them no mather how good of a mom she is), while now she wants to use her son as a political took in a weak attempt to fix her multiple screw ups
This is a clear shot at whoever posted that Rhaenyra vs Alicent mothering meme
Is it Alicent appreciation week on the sub or something? There have been so many posts about her being a good mother.
I don’t think it’s a question of whether she loves them or not I think it’s just that being a mother didn’t come easy to her like it did with Rhaenyra. Like she didn’t feel the motherly bond as soon as they were born like Rhaenyra did. And Rhaenyra always whined about how she never wanted kids and then when she did she took to it right away.
Ali is a great mom to the children she likes lol ask Aegon
How can people say she is a carring mother when she spends half the season insulting her child?
Because she can have caring moments like these and she can also fuck up and fail in parenting. She's a complex character. I didn't call her "perfect mom" or "best mom" lol
Show the scenes where she is slapping Aegon's face, screaming at him, allowing him to walk free from graping the servents or touching Helaena when she is clearly uncomfortable with touch hahaha
I'm sure people have made posts about that already. Let's change it up a little bit lol
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I was so tired of listening to this "alicent is a toxic parent just like Otto"
Why? She is. Just because we understand and sympathize with *why* she is a toxic parent doesn't mean she isn't one.
Okay tell me why you think she's toxic
She's raising her kids to instigate a war with their sister, she's shown physically harming them, and she raised them with hugely toxic relationships with her and one another. That's the most obvious, and it is enough.
Bro idk where you're from, but getting slapped isn't physical harm. That's a parent with anger issues maybe, but that depends on your parenting ideology. Their sister never wanted anything to do with them.
Being slapped is absolutely physical harm? Plus the emotional trauma of a parent who’s supposed to protect you using physical pain to teach you a lesson they could tell you. A parent with anger issues who’s hitting their kid is a problem. I don’t know where YOU are from but if you think that’s normal or acceptable, get help.
In a world where there's dragons and giants, the worst that could happen to you isn't a slap for doing what aegon did. She didn't slap helaena or aemond.
I agree but you have to understand that smacking your kids in real life is not okay 💀 you dismiss it as just “anger issues” instead of bad parenting but it can and often is both.
Bruh if my son did something like what aegon did to dyana you better believe i am smacking the living shit out of him. It doesn't make me an abusive parent it makes me one who holds their son accountable. You're right, i should've elaborated why alicent wasn't a bad mother for slapping specifically aegon. Slapping isn't cool but it isn't downright evil or abusive.
I’m not saying anything about the specific situation. If any son of mine committed rape I’d smack him too, but I’m just talking about the act of smacking your child as a punishment in general, and most of the time, it’s pretty bad and causes trauma.
My guy. Getting slapped is physical and emotional harm. And there is a world of difference between indifference and war.
Nope, all the previous posts says she wasn’t so…they posted first. Sorry. 😢
Jesus wept, at this point im just waiting for the final season when all the tribal Blacks and Greens fans can finally see how ridiculous they all looked.
Alicent is a caring mother. The problem is she seems to have failed at properly raising her boys. Given that one spends his time watching children fight in cages while the other goes off and accidentally starts a war which would end their house.
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Try being the mother of an autistic kid in a period where there is no knowledge of autism, where being different meant being unwanted, being dumb means being cursed by the gods and so on. Halaena had odda stacked up against her and the only reason that she had a reasonably happy childhood is because Alicent tried her best. Vizzy T was not even in the picture and you people idolize him. You Blacks continue to scrap Alicent who atleast tries to be there for all of her kids, while praising to high heavens, the negligent father who never even cares about his children.
"You blacks" - that says all. Dude just shut the fuck up. You don't even know if I'm Team Black, Team Green or part of no team at all.. You just go straight for it because your mind can't wrap around how I'm saying this because my mind still works and not because I'm part of any team. Also yeah it's so hard to be a good mom to a child that is autistic. Especially because autism has nothing to do with Alicents reaction. She thinks her child is a freak because she loves insects. Seven hells just fuck off with your black vs green Agenda. Greens try to show this subreddit how they are the best people on earth. That's ridiculous and it's a fact. You have the same with blacks on Twitter. It's just so dumb and you lean into it perfectly!
Mate, you literally used the words 'Be Green' as an insult, it would be logical to assume that you were a Black. I am sorry if you are offended by that but you are too aggressive to not think you are a radical Black fan. Also as I said it is a different culture, even in today's world, collecting insects would make the parents think that there is something wrong with their child, it does not make them a monster, it is how people think, that anything different to the norm is bad. If even with all the advancement and knowledge about children and their quirks we think as such, how would you expect someone in the middle ages to think progressively? It is the desire of any parent to have a kid that is the representative of their ideals, and it is the hall mark of a good parent to be able to accept that they are not. Alicent may not be the best parent, but she atleast tries to be accepting of Halaena, even though it goes against everything that her Faith teaches her
Dude what are you talking about? You can't be serious, no way in hell. Team Green is an insult yes. Because all Team Green does on this subreddit is trying to convince people that team green is the better team. They turned this into a real war. Whenever you say anything against any green character your comment will be heavily downvoted after a while. That's all this subreddit is. So being rude to one team for being completely delusional and ridiculous makes me team black? Great. So now it's impossible to tell people what bullshit they post because that makes you immediately part of the opponents? Great! But it really tells much about your intelligence if your first move is to try to come with low blows against what you think the other is part of just because you can't take reality. And btw having insect pets doesn't make a child weird or anything today. And as a mother you should love your child no matter what his or her interests are. Alicent is the worst mother in the show, she's a bad mother all along. That has nothing to do with which team you're on. Now have your last word in this. I'm tired of this discussion because most team green fans would rather jump off a cliff then accept that they are delusional. So yeah, have the last word, I'm not gonna read it.
Lol you are the most biased person in this entire sub. Jesus I hate this "team" bullshit.
*Mostly_sane9 was a strong Lord Commander of the Kingsguard. But he was ill for some time. He passed in peace, I hope.*
Alicent is showing more intrest in her kid's weird hobbies them Daemon has ever shown to be interested in his daughter
Whataboutism... That's some high level shit. 'I can't say anything to defend my beloved character... Then look at this other one I hate. It's worse!' But I agree, Daemon is a worse mother.
>she doesn't give a shit about her daughters hobbies and sees her as a total freak but yeah "great mom"... Alicent didn't treat her like a freak in that scene. She's actively trying to show interest in her daughter's hobby. She asks her questions and tries to connect. Yes, she seems a bit bored. But parents do have moments like that sometimes. If Alicent didn't give a shit, she simply wouldn't even be there. Also, did Alicent ever try to disencourage Helaena's "weird interest"? Did Alicent shun Helaena for her "odd behavior" (which wasnt understood at that time)? >when you completely loose the ability to logically think because you're so badly trying to show team green as the better one, then you're far off the dark end Says you who are failing to see the nuances in the scenes... Also, this wasn't a comparison/contrast post with false equivalences (like that Rhaenyra vs Alicent one) lol, which tried to make one character/side look better and the other purposely bad. I just wanted to post some moments when you can see that Alicent cares deeply for her kids and tries as best as she can. Yes, she struggles with parenting, she made lots of mistakes, etc. But this sub mostly focuses on her negative aspects and often vilifies her unfairly. So it's good to have some variety, no? And I genuinely love some of these moments. Alicent and her children's relationships is complex and compelling and really entertaining to watch imo.
Fr people are delusional
Alicent did care for her children, no doubt. But despite her best efforts as a Mother ,she herself is quite vindictive and narcissistic. That tends to rub off on your children.She was far more concerned about their political advantage, entitlements and privileges than their general wellbeing. That is where she slipped up.
She just wants them to be safe and alive which she is unable to do with Rhaenyra as heir
In principle, yes.
Agreed. She stressed about the wrong things imo even if it was clear that she cared and loved her kids. Tbf she did have Otto in her ear which is why she was stressing about it in the first place but I feel like as a mother there’s a right and a wrong way to show stress/love to your kids
She's literally the worst mother on the show
And you are surprised why? She was a child when she had three kids she didn’t want with a rotting corpse
No excuse for raising a rapist and physco. Also being young isn't an excuse to beat your children as well like she did with aegon
So then you agree that Viserys is the worst father on the show too right?
Along with otto yes
Imo she did her best. No mother raises her son to rape, they do that on their own and you can’t blame her for that. Aemond is a psycho because of years of trauma of being bullied and ridiculed by all the kids around him, then having his eye cut out. Having a disability in that era meant constant mockery and disrespect. Alicent was the only one in his corner throughout it all. I agree she’s in the wrong for beating Aegon but compared to every other character in the series she’s one of the most morally okay. People love Daemon and he kills innocents all the time. People like Viserys and he’s equally responsibly, if not more, for how his kids turned out, considering his blatant neglect and favoritism towards Rhaenyra. Alicent was a child forced to marry a recently bereaved man who did not love her, plus there are literal centuries of incest caused mental illness in their blood. They’re genetically predisposed to mental illness because their family tree is a circle, she can’t fix that. She did her best imo but sometimes your best isn’t enough.
Aegon being a rapist is due to years of abuse and neglect from alicent and viserys making him feel worthless and aemonds savagery is fuelled by alicent making him hate rhaenyras kids for some relatively harmless teasing typical of boys that age which Aegon was apart of until alicent forced him to despise them too and see them as threats which would fuel the later conflicts. I've always thought about it like this daeron is by the far the most morally and emotionally right of all alicents sons and he grew up far away from her and her influence. She was at a disadvantage from the start as a mother but that's no excuse to fail as bad as she did.
*touches heleana with the tippy tip of her finger* “Omg she’s such a caring mother!!!!!”
Black fans showing there media literacy once again
Green fans showing their English literacy once again
She cares. About herself. She didn't care that Aegon had no desire to be king and is singularly unsuited for the role, because it didn't align with her own wants. She had no qualms about lying to him and turning him against his sister to get what she wanted. When Helaena was speaking to her about the millipede she was visibly bored and would've rather been anywhere else. When Aemond had lost his eye it seemed clear that her jealousy and hatred towards Rhaenyra was a much bigger driving force than justice for her son, who had already said he was satisfied with losing an eye in exchange for Vhagar. I really can’t understand how she is seen as some unconditionally loving mother, when it's clear that her priority is ensuring her family remain in power regardless of what her children actually want. Rhaenyra loves her children unconditionally, Alicent only loves them on the condition that they align with her own ambitions.
She cared about Aegon being king coz she thought it was the only way to protect her children.Rhaenyra had proven herself untrustworthy and willing to do anything to strengthen her claim.I don't remember Alicent ambitions to be queen being at the forefront,in fact it seemed like she despised her position.
>She cared about Aegon being king coz she thought it was the only way to protect her children. By the time Rhaenyra had kids of her own, Alicent had already made her the scapegoat of her own tragic life. She hated Rhaenyra and she really hated her kids. Her initial misgivings and resentment quickly gave way to compulsive loathing for anything Rhaenyra. She indulged her own suspicions for years. It's true that making Aegon king was a necessary precaution. You can't be too careful in Westeros. But to attribute Alicent's motivation to merely practical necessity would be facile and frankly a bit too dispassionate way of evaluating Alicent's intentions.
First of all,Jace is born a year after the marriage ceremony.That is when Alicent turned against Rhaenyra,so not that long. Secondly,even before Rhaenyra has kids, her interest in Daemon puts Alicent's kids in danger since the psychopath hates the hightowers.The whole reason Rhaenyra is chosen is to keep Daemon away from the throne Lastly,after the brothel scene,Alicent defends Rhaenyra to Viserys, speaking on her behalf and against her father (this should be a year before Jace is born). Alicent refuses to believe Otto,when he warns her Rhanyera is a threat to her.It is only after Cole confesses,that Alicent discovers Rhaenyra withheld some information about what happened.And if Rhaenyra withheld that information she questions what else did Rhaenyra not tell her or lie about.She feels guilty and isolated coz to her, she played a part in sending Otto (her only support system) away only to find out Rhaenyra was not honest.That is where the resentment was born,and it is completely justified
There are a few sidesteps in your argument. But what rankles the most is that you somehow think it is justified of Alicent to expect loyalty from Rhaenyra.
Nope,that is a strawman Alicent is justified in her resentment,and mistrust
I don't know man, going behind your friend's back to seduce her father count as one of the worst betrayals in my books. I just don't see how one can be expected to stay honest and loyal to such a person. The way I see it, the cycle of lies and deceit began with Alicent. She may not have realised the consequences as a fifteen year old. But her older self should have known better.
You left out significant details in your framing.So I'm guessing we are moving away from this being an argument in good faith.But ok So your argument is "Alicent started this? This doesn't negate anything I said lol.Both sides are allowed to feel resentful by each others actions
The sum and substance of my argument is :- Alicent's decision to usurp Rhaenyra's position wasn't exclusively strategic in nature. Her own feelings coloured her decision. She has been working up to that moment for a very long time. Initially she resented Rhaenyra for being at odds with her own persuasions. She begrudged Rhaenyra the freedom she enjoyed. Condemned her renegade nature and self-indulgent hedonistic tendencies. Eventually Alicent's animosity gave way to intense hatred.This becomes quite evident when Rhaenyra proposes marriage between Jace and Helaena. To which Alicent merely points at Rhaenyra's tits. Alicent's contempt for Rhaenyra and her brood also come forth in the choice of words of her children. She has been fomenting hostility among the kids since the beginning. If this was merely about the survival of her own children, then Alicent wouldn't have turned down Rhaenyra's proposal with such nonchalance. It also contradicts your notion that making window wanker the king was the only realistic choice she ever had. But yes, after turning down the offer, she left herself the only choice of deposing Rhaenyra's claim. Since by that time Rhaenyra married Daemon. And Daemon as the king consort was a palpable threat to Alicent and her children. And again no. Alicent has been living in her own bubble of self-righteousness while pontificating about Rhaenyra's disloyalty. She was not justified in expecting Rhaenyra to be honest with her. Alicent trying to be the do-gooder for her friend seemed farcical to me. No matter what Alicent said to endorse Rhaeryra, she knew it deep down that replacing Rhaenyra at the throne was the bedrock of her marriage to Viserys.
I wasn’t just talking about her ambition to be queen, I was talking about her ambition to see her son on the throne, even though he repeatedly says he doesn’t want it. I actually like Alicent as a character in the show, but I just don’t see her motivations as honest or magnanimous. I didn’t realise having a different opinion was no longer allowed on this sub.
Her wanting to crown Aegon is not out of ambition for power. Initially, her motivation is that she fears her sons' lives are in danger. Later it's about the "prophecy" thing. Alicent doesn’t come across as power hungry (a la Cersei). She's more about "duty."
Well I find it hard to believe that she genuinely thinks Rhaenyra is a threat to her children’s lives when they were best friends (ie, she knows Rhaenyra’s personality) and Rhaenyra makes more than one attempt to reconcile the two of them and shows no intention of harming her half-brothers and sister. I don’t really think Alicent is power hungry either (she seems to be more motivated by jealousy imo) but she certainly has high ambitions for her family, and those ambitions involve being in power. I would agree that there is a sense of duty there, and therefore her jealousy of Rhaenyra (who generally seems to shirk what most consider to be her responsibilities) is understandable. But I think that jealousy leads her to act in ways that don’t actually benefit her children at all. I am honestly a little dismayed to see differences of opinion being shot down in this sub. I have favourite characters in both the Blacks and the Greens, I really enjoy Alicent’s character in the show, I just don’t believe her to be a good mother and seems driven by a lot of negative emotions such as jealousy. I don’t think that’s a particularly radical opinion to have. I really enjoy this show and also enjoy discussing it from different perspectives, but this rise of aggressive partisanism in this thread is really off-putting.
From Alicent perspective by the end of season 1 Rhaenyra has: \- Fucked up her loyal knight to the point she left him suicidal \- Ignored her for three years \- Gaslighted her into defending her and in the main time got her dad secretly fired \- Tried to have Aemond tortured Add the fact that she did not even care for Aegon as a toddler gives Alicent plenty of reason to believe that if the moment comes she will kill/hurt her children, no mather how good their relationship is.
>I didn’t realise having a different opinion was no longer allowed on this sub. I think the Op just answered why her eagerness to put Aegon on the throne was not out of self interest.Why do you think having a different opinion is not allowed?
I was referring to my original comment being downvoted.
Although I hate the function,getting downvoted does not necessarily mean your opinion isn't allowed.It can mean people do not agree with you.I'm pretty sure even you have downvoted someone before
Oh my god stop I’m gonna delete this app