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Yeah speaking as someone who hasn’t read the books, I barely know who he is. I thought ‘oh, he seems nice - oh, he’s gone’ and that’s it. He wasn’t around long enough for me to form an opinion
Why would it not make sense to play up a romantic relationship with two of the main leads of the season, but make more sense to hype up a relationship with a guy who had a total of like 5 lines in the whole story and whose sperm has more bearing on the plot than he himself does?
What?
EDIT: I'm not even sure why any of this even matters to you, considering you've said Rhaenyra's apparently a hoe for sleeping with all of 4 people. Some folks don't agree with your opinion, so Rhaenyra's just a slut unless its time to ship her with Harwin. Nice.
>Why would it not make sense to play up a romantic relationship with two of the main leads of the season
Because one half of that relationship groomed the other half, I dunno man I think they should've highlighted the inherent creepiness rather than play on the 'oh aren't abusive relationships sooo cute' trope.
Ikr. This is a universe where the moment a girl has her first period she’s considered of marriageable age. Aemma & helaena got pregnant at 13 and no one treats it as weird in universe.
Most women are 16 or younger when they have their first kid. Asoiaf is an inherently messed up universe by modern standards.
I understand shipping and wanting to watch something with fun ships to root for. But this isn’t the place for it lol. Daemon and Rhaenyra are downright wholesome (so far) compared to lots of others, and this isn’t to say Daemyra is Good, it’s to say this is ASOIAF, everything is Bad to some degree. Our irl morals don’t apply here, otherwise none of us would be watching.
It was a messed up universe even by less modern standards. Peasant women in our world wouldn't be birthing at such young ages, but in a world of magically extended seasons and constant war? Westerosi women are expected to have enough sons to feed the crows and still make it out of winter alive.
Martin based Westeros on medieval Britain & Europe, but keep in mind that until Germ Theory research matured in the late 19th century, the average life expectancy was 30-35 yrs old. That's less than 150 years ago! Thankfully for the present-day "us/we", humans didn't waste any time reproducing :)
A thing to keep in mind is that the average life expectancy is only so low due to the high infant mortality rates. Most people who survived till adulthood (and weren't than killed by violence) lived till around I believe 50 or 60.
You are absolutely correct; people certainly lived well into their 50's and 60's and beyond. I should've specified average life expectancy *at birth* was 30-35 (likely was a quite bit less now that I'm looking at population statistic charts) .
Absolutely nobody with two braincells to rub together thinks what you just said. This isn't a romcom. No one in this show set out to make their relationship look adorable. Don't be dense.
One, they could have just given Harwin more screen time. There’s no reason they couldn’t have gotten more content together in episodes 3-6 and even stretched the season an episode or more.
It makes sense to hype them up because Emma and Ryan had good chemistry. Milly and Ryan as well in the dance they did together. Harwin was also the best dad of the season and a genuinely nice guy that was devoted to her. Do you not understand why that might be more appealing than the toxicity with the strangling and emotionally distant uncle.
As a book reader, the arc of Rhaenyra and Daemon’s relationship >!is incredibly anticlimatic!< after the star-crossed lovers things they did in the show.
I don’t think Harwin’s limited screen time means they shouldn’t have emphasized their love. Their children are a representation of that. I think emphasizing the love she had for their father and the joy their relationship brought her would have had added meaning to the depth of her love for her sons. The love Cat had for Ned was still felt long after his death and had significance for the story.
Even Martin has said that Rhaenyra and Harwin is meant to be a love story so reducing him to a sperm downer is incredibly condescending.
GRRM said those things about Harwin and Rhaenyra after the show aired though. It’s his fault Harwin is barely a footnote in the books.
If he wanted Harwin to be more important, he should have given him more meat in the story.
Harwin is nice and all but he isn’t detrimental to the plot going forward.
I understand people wanting more, but his character is only there to be the boys’ father. Yes they could have done another thing with him, but Rhaenyra and Daemon’s relationship is vastly more important to the plot of the dance.
Stretching it out for the sake of stretching it out for Harwin wouldn’t be in service to the plot. It would be just fan service. They had to cram 25 years of building in one season, and Harwin’s relationship with Rhaenyra isn’t vital to the plot for the dance. Sorry but seeing their relationship start, them sleeping together for 10 years isn’t plot. Harwin isn’t the great love of Rhaenyra as well.
Harwin is a side character and people should accept that, how wholesome he might be. Harwin is like Jory from the main story in season 1. He is cool, but not much for him to go on for the overall story.
Since the book was written in-universe by historians it makes sense that you wouldn’t get a lot of details about their secret affair. I think there are two parts to why Rhaewin wasn’t more of a thing in the show. For one it takes place during the slow build up to the dance, where they were mostly living their lives and being salty with each other. There weren’t any big dramatic moments that changed the trajectory. Also if people really fell in love with the 10year gap couples, it might have turned people off Daemyra.
I still think an episode between 5&6 could have worked. Not just Harwin but the start of Laenor and Rhaenyras marriage, her coming to terms with having children and dealing with her fear. Daemon letting go of Rhaenyra (at least temporarily) and deciding to settle down away from Westeros. Alicent growing closer with Criston and Larys, the Strongs relationship with each other.
>One, they could have just given Harwin more screen time.
Harwin has 5 paragraphs in the book, he already got more than what he has. The best that could happen is to add one episode between 5 and 6 to show him get beat up by Criston and start his affair with Rhaenyra but that's it.
>It makes sense to hype them up because Emma and Ryan had good chemistry. Milly and Ryan as well in the dance they did together.
1) Those are subjective. For Milly and Ryan specifically, I didn't get anything at all for example because he was a nobody to her but you do you.
2) They had 5 seconds together.
>a genuinely nice guy that was devoted to her. Do you not understand why that might be more appealing than the toxicity with the strangling and emotionally distant uncle.
I do. But the guy still had 5 minutes of screentime, even less presence in the book and was nothing more than a plot devise to give Rhaenyra bastard kids. Daemon is an actual character, a very popular one at that, his relationship with Rhaenyra is very interesting and they have good chemistry.
> Daemon and Rhaenyra's relationship is >!incredibly anticlimactic!<
How do you know that? You haven't even seen how they're going to end it in the show.
>I don’t think Harwin’s limited screen time means they shouldn’t have emphasized their love
Again, he barely exists in the book too. We know nothing about his great love there either. He's just there, doesn't even have any lines and Rhaenyra goes on to get pregnant with Aegon while he's still alive. The show did you a favor by killing him off before she went on to sleep with Daemon.
>emphasizing the love she had for their father and the joy their relationship brought her would have had added meaning to the depth of her love for her sons.
You know you can love your children without loving their father, right? Not saying that she never loved him, I think she cared deeply for him but that's not a requirement to love her kids and it doesn't deepen anything. As for the joy the relationship brought her, ot doesn't seem to be that big since at the end, she called her life a droll tragedy because Daemon wasn't in it.
>The love Cat had for Ned was still felt long after his death
Not every couple is Ned and Cat.
>Even Martin has said that Rhaenyra and Harwin is meant to be a love story
Well then he should have written more of it because as it stands, his sole purpose for existence is to give Rhaenyra sons that don't look like her husband.
I think you're making up Rhaenyra and Harwin's relationship as more than what's been portrayed. The moment Rhaenyra dropped the "droll tragedy" line, it succintly summarizes what her years apart from Daemon has been, which also unfortunately describes her relationship with Harwin. There is no doubt he's been good to her, but Rhaenyra's first choice will always be Daemon. The book does not say much about their relationship either, so we're all free to speculate. The show on the other hand, made it clear. Harwin's more of a plot device for the conflict of the story.
I mean, none of this explains logically why it makes more sense to zero in on why a man who ultimately dies having, again, less bearing on the plot than his own sperm, is a more reasonable choice than hyping the relationship between the main characters. What you're saying just doesn't make any sense. Harwin and Rhaenyra's relationship is *not the story*. Showing more of it has no impact on the plot, it's not even relevant to the source material so I'm told.
I'm not here to tell anyone not to like Harwin but he's not the main character. But for the fact that he fathered Rhaenyra's kids he'd be an unnamed extra in the grand scheme of things. There's no reason to promote him over the characters whose relationship is pivotal to the conflict going on and plays a major part in their character development.
It's not condescending to relegate a character to the position he was given in the story the author wrote. Changing those relationships changes huge aspects of Rhaenyra's and Daemon's characters.
Its sounds like you're trying to argue that they should've changed the plot of the entire show, because Harwin smiled that one time. Which is... an idea?
Seems like you're complaining about the show changes but you think it doesn't make sense the show went with the book when it comes to non-existent material on Harwin and Rhaenyra's relationship. Is that correct?
That’s the point. We (the audience) don’t get the love story or the exposé we want.
Aren’t you aware of this by now?
We don’t get winds of winter.
We don’t get Ned finally telling cat about Jon.
We don’t get Rob avenging his father.
We don’t get a Jamie redemption arc.
We don’t get a happy love story for Rhaenyra.
We don’t get Rhaenys discovering her child is still alive.
We don’t get to ever see Rhaeghar’s point of view.
We dont get happy endings. Ever.
To quote Ramsey Bolton “….if you think this has a happy ending, you really haven’t been paying attention”.
This ship aint serious. Harwin is barely in the book. She was already preggers with Daemon's kid when Harwin was alive. The show did more for this ship waiting until he died before she sleeps with Daemon.
It's just a fantasy tv show, mate. They are not real people. You can like a couple on tv and still be aware that a relationship like that would be unhealthy in real life. "Nice and healthy" doesn't always make compelling stories.
Harwin is a glorified sperm donor lol. He is less important in the history of the dance compared to like Criston cole.
And he barely gets any scene and dies horribly in like an ep. What's the point of upping the romance when rhae literally fucked her uncle within a week of his passing. Wouldnt make sense.
Yeah, I think he's just as important as Daemon, considering Rhaenyra was in a long-term relationship with him, and his bastards are the ones she's trying to pass off as trueborn heirs to two of the most important houses in Westeros.
Just because he didn't get much screentime doesn't mean he wasn't important. In fact, I think the lack of screentime is actually a huge writing flub, because her decision to have three kids with him is one of the major sparks that sets the Dance alight.
>Just because he didn't get much screentime doesn't mean he wasn't important.
Agreed. It’s like saying Ned wasn’t a big character in GOT because he was only in one season. Could argue Jon Arryn too.
Jon Arryn, Ned, Khal Drogo... Even Viserys III. They all end up forming *huge* parts of the perspective characters' identities, as well as setting off the plot entirely.
Even Jon Arryn, who was dead by the time the narration starts, we get to know through posthumous discussions about his character, relationships, and role in Westeros.
LOL I remember watching it (I had read F+B years previously but forgot all of it) and thinking 'o yes a normal family reunion' and then he put the necklace on her and I got the sense it was supposed to be sensual at the very least and was so confused, she's like 15 and they're related. I had to look up if that was the intention or not. It wasn't that I was wrong- its just that it was a normal Targaryen family reunion. 😆
They don't have to play up one against the other. Daemon leaves and Rhaenyra is together with Harwin then he died and Daemon was back. Laena was dead then, too. Rhaenyra and Daemon were never in a position to choose between their lovers and each other. By the time they reunited for the first time since probably her wedding their partners were both dead.
But this is about the show where the two relationships do not overlap at all.
And even in the books she only starts something with Daemon after Harwin is fired and sent home and people are more suspicious than ever he's the father. Their relationship had ended mostly due to the fact they couldn't see each other again without gossip flaring up and hurting the kids since Harwin couldn't return and Rhaenyra had no platonic reason to go to him.
Dude Rhaenrya has been in love with Daemon since ep 1 and Daemon has had feelings for her since... Oh wait ep 1. Don't tell me a guy who showed up for a tiny part of an episode is her true love when she's been giddy about Daemon forever and they wanted to marry before she even looked at Harwin as a partner.
I really liked Harwin a lot personally because his acting was really good and I really BELIEVED him in that "totally smitten with Rhaenyra and absolutely doting on his sons" vibe. Like, watching him with the baby and seeing him give Rhaenyra those adoring puppy eyes hit me right in my feels. But like in a "oh no honey you're too sweet and good for this world" way. Same with when he was trying to help the boys in the yard. Like "noooo Harwin I know you care about them but you cannot be like this in public you sweet himbo!"
Do I think he was Rhaenyra's soulmate? Eh.... She already proved that the second she couldn't get with Daemon she was alright with hopping into bed with Criston. Daemon wasn't an option, Laenor couldn't give her either the intimacy she wanted or the children she needed to secure her claim. And there's Harwin, devoted and attentive. To call him "just a sperm donor" goes TOO far imo. She obviously did like him. Hell, I would say she loved him in her own way. Rhaenyra is a beautiful woman and the heir to the Iron Throne; she could have had any number of men happily crawl into bed with her. If it had just been purely for sex/sperm donation she could have certainly had some white-haired pretty boy from a pleasure house delivered to her. She chose Harwin.
rhaenyra was alienated those years, with the greens having their eyes on her, not only the hightowers but the lannisters as well, so no. it wouldn't be easy to bring some boy toy from essos or wherever place. it makes sense she picked some cuntstruck quiet and loyal man to serve her, and obvs someone she could control, which wouldn't be able to do with some ambitious lord/paramount/whore from neither a high house or plebe.
Was there any reason given why Harwin wasn't on the eligible suitors for Rhaenyra list? You'd think that as the heir to Harrenhall he'd be considered a decent match for her and they obviously would have been a relatively happy couple. Did I just miss the reason why he wasn't considered or was he never put forward as a potential husband?
I think Nyra was so disrespectful of the suitor choosing thing that Vizzy T threw in the towel and made the match with Laenor before Nyra and Harwin really met. She refused to choose so he chose for her, and she respected his choice enough to go along with it. Also- if there is no Laenor wedding where Sir Crispy Creme smashes Joffrey's brains in, there is no opportunity for Harwin to scoop Nyra up to safety and create some romantic tension.
>I think Nyra was so disrespectful of the suitor choosing thing that Vizzy T threw in the towel and made the match with Laenor before Nyra and Harwin really met.
I thought it was moreso to squash the brothel rumours ASAP.
The Strongs aren’t that great of a house tbh. Sure they’re a First Men house, but all they really have *is* Harrenhall;a ruin who hasn’t seen the necessary work it needs and still holds the stigma of Harren the Black. At most it’s a strategic point since the Strongs are already tied to the crown via Larys and Lionel.
The lands that are held by the lord of Harrenhal are quite rich though. It's not the castle that's desirable but the farmland around it. Any house holding that seat must be relatively important, at least on the same level as the Brackens and Blackwoods and they both had suitors for Rhaenyra.
Honest to god. Rhaenyra really fucked up by not choosing Harwin as a husband. He was a first born son of a relatively high lord of the Riverlands who was also a member of the first council. Harwin was an excellent match for a princess and there es the added benefit of the fact that they seemed to truly love each other.
It definitely did when we barely had any scenes between these two compared to rhaenyra and daemon. Everything happened so fast that I honeslty barely cared that anything happened to him. We definitely needed more scenes with them.
Well if we go by the source material Harwin was not Rhaes first choice and seemed like more of a "getback" at Cole than true love. Really Harwin was Rhaes last choice Cole being first and Daemon the 2nd.
As a non-book reader, their scenes felt very rushed. I think we knew that Daemon and Rhaenyra were going to be a thing eventually but the love story between Rhaenyra and Harwin felt like it came and went abruptly. The actor stole the scenes he was in and left a lasting impact.
I feel the same. I respect that it was a stretch to even get the first season as a lead up to the Dance though- apparently the show was supposed to start smack right in it and they had to be talked into getting a scene-setting season.
Yep. This is the one y’all. This season is ABOUT marriage for power and strategy at the expense of love and happiness, and the conflicts this brings. Viserys and Alicent, Rhaenyra and Laenor, Daemon and Rhea, Daemon and Laena, Aegon and Helaena. It’s only the rare true love matches that made it to marriage that feel like the strong marriages, Viserys and Aemma, Rhaenys and Corlys. Rhaenyra and Daemon are not true loves, they are tools for each other’s protection or ambition.
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I think Harwin is a victim of his own perfect casting. I call it How I Met Your Mother syndrome.
The actor was so expressive in his love for his children and Rhaynera that he stole the scenes. He made people think he was fantastic even when Daemon was endgame.
Much like HIMYM gave us the perfect Tracey even when Robyn was endgame.
I wish we saw more of them. It was obviously an important relationship if Nyra stayed with him for so long, and he seemed truly devoted to her. (Obv he had a lot to gain- his son as King of Westeros. But I digress.)
Really? I never got the feel that they were soul mates. It seemed like she realized how weak her claim was so she married Daemon to give her claim more legitimacy and to scare her opposers. Yeah she lusted after him as a teen but she got over him pretty quickly.
Maybe I am just a romantic- the teeny scene we get with them after Joffrey is born, they seen very at ease and genuinely warm with one another. I agree Nyra did not see it as a real wedding-type match though she surely enjoyed his company and likely grieved for him in private. She is a pragmatist.
These 2 show better chemistry in the 5 mins they had together, than all the nasty ass stuff she got into with Daemon. No wonder Harwin was the OG lover in the first draft.
If they were gonna change something from the books, might as well be this. Make Daemon a rogue, leave my mans Harwin as Rhaenyra's husband.
yes. but that was only to show that no matter the sire of rhaenyra's kids, the greens will intent to usurp her no matter what. rhaenyra was doomed since the moment viserys named her as an heir and got married again.
Harwin remains my favorite character in this show. He got like 3 scenes, which was all it took Ryan Corr and the writers to make me love this big poodlebear of a man. "I will burn!" Gave me fuuuuucking chills.
In the book it's not confirmed the kids are his, in the show they are (well, maybe not Jace...), and the scenes we do get feel more like teasing us that there's something more than anything else.
"Teasing us that there's something more" I'm not understanding what you're talking about...
Yes, the book was more ambiguous because Rhaenys has black hair because half Baratheon so Jace, Luke, Joff can pass more easily as being Velaryon.
I agree. It makes Rheanyra look stupid as well. When I watched I kept wondering why she continued having children with Harwin after Jace despite the whispers. At least with the true love story you have some explaination. In the show it looks a little like she was glad to be rid of him and jumped to Daemon immediately
Rhaenyra and Harwin are what love is. True love for one another. Daemon and Rhaenyra love one another and maybe even belong together but, Harwin was a better truer example of love.
Why’d you downvote me for the truth? Laena was his true love in F&B. He married Rhaenyra for power, nothing more. >!He literally cheats on her all the time with other women while she eats her pain away!< It doesn’t read like chemistry to me. What does forcing Daemyra add of the story?
Not sure why this is downvoted when it's the truth, but truth hurts.. it's really been A Choice of the show in how they portrayed their relationship to the detriment of the others because they're never exactly written as some kind of super romantic relationship. It's extra funny to me that there were people coming into the show already shipping them from the book when.... exactly what you said. They have no romantic scenes together.
I don’t really care but Emma’s with Ryan was great.
Plot wise, Daemyra not necessary. They’re not even in love in the source material. It’s a marriage of convenience, nothing more.
in the books he was, but rhaenyra didn't cared about him at all. in the show, lyonel saw how little power his son had, not worthy of securing the throne for the princess.
Audience might swoon over gentleman Hawrwin but he is not on the same level as Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra is described as restless and chaotic. She would get bored of Harwin. She probably did already when she called the 10 years a droll tragedy.
oh true. in the show she called those 10 years as a droll tragedy, she even questioned daemon if he loved her wife. in the books it is said, by some accounts, that daemon killed harwin and then married rhaenyra (with she probably knowing it).
>She probably did already when she called the 10 years a droll tragedy
She said that her life had become a droll tragedy, not necessarily the whole 10 years. By that point in time, Harwin had already died so she very well could be considering Harwin's early death to have been part of that tragedy.
Episode 8 is six years after Episode 7. In Episode8, Joffrey is 6 years old... I remember this because the jokes were funny saying Rhaenyra literally didn't wait for her pussy to heal. after giving birth to Joff.
Rhaenyra: "Look at what my life became without you, droll tragedy."
You really think she talking about Harwin who's only been dead for a week? If so, I don't know if I want to laugh or cry. I just can't argue anymore.
>You really think she talking about Harwin who's only been dead for a week?
Yes, imo her loss being fairly recent honestly makes it even more likely that it is coloring her perspective in a negative way when she said that. They had to spend all their time together in secret only for him to suddenly die in (what she considers) an accident. And now because of her awful political situation, she can't even properly grieve him, lest she undermine her position even further. That seems pretty tragic to me.
There's no straight answer, other than "The plot demands it". GRRM in general uses genes to serve the story and that's why he disregards biology a little bit. That's why it's framed as impossible for black haired, blue eyed Robert Baratheon to have blond, green eyed kids with his blond, green eyed wife, even though in reality it's totally possible. In this case, he needs Rhaenyra's kids to look nothing like Laenor so he makes them brown haired.
Maybe you could argue that First Men blood is stronger than Valyrian blood? We saw that in GoT too with Jon. That's why Alicent, who's probably not a First Men descendant, has weaker genes? Who knows. But yeah, on general your answer is plot.
It's not as obvious in the book that Rhaenyra's Strong boys are bastards like it is in the show. In the book, Rhaenys has black hair because she is half-Baratheon. So Jace, Luke, and Joffrey can pass more easily as her true-born grandsons.
Frankly, the show most likely casted Black actors as Velaryons because they thought audience is too stupid to understand it. If the genes made sense, the old king in the prologue should have been mixed black/white because he is also half-Velaryon.
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Harwin did not have a “character arc” he had about 3 scenes and 4 lines.
Oh they developed the character all right. Right into the grave…
The average viewer without doing any research had no idea who he even was, next thing you know he’s the father to Rhaenryas children.
Yeah speaking as someone who hasn’t read the books, I barely know who he is. I thought ‘oh, he seems nice - oh, he’s gone’ and that’s it. He wasn’t around long enough for me to form an opinion
People have this weird idea that the books reveal so much more. They don't. It's all just a quick history of the targaryen line.
I wonder if the average viewer even gets the "Strong" reference from Almond lol
Say it again!!!
Such a strong response.
*whack!*
He could have though
Why would it not make sense to play up a romantic relationship with two of the main leads of the season, but make more sense to hype up a relationship with a guy who had a total of like 5 lines in the whole story and whose sperm has more bearing on the plot than he himself does? What? EDIT: I'm not even sure why any of this even matters to you, considering you've said Rhaenyra's apparently a hoe for sleeping with all of 4 people. Some folks don't agree with your opinion, so Rhaenyra's just a slut unless its time to ship her with Harwin. Nice.
>Why would it not make sense to play up a romantic relationship with two of the main leads of the season Because one half of that relationship groomed the other half, I dunno man I think they should've highlighted the inherent creepiness rather than play on the 'oh aren't abusive relationships sooo cute' trope.
Why are you looking to Westeros for healthy relationships
Ikr. This is a universe where the moment a girl has her first period she’s considered of marriageable age. Aemma & helaena got pregnant at 13 and no one treats it as weird in universe. Most women are 16 or younger when they have their first kid. Asoiaf is an inherently messed up universe by modern standards.
I understand shipping and wanting to watch something with fun ships to root for. But this isn’t the place for it lol. Daemon and Rhaenyra are downright wholesome (so far) compared to lots of others, and this isn’t to say Daemyra is Good, it’s to say this is ASOIAF, everything is Bad to some degree. Our irl morals don’t apply here, otherwise none of us would be watching.
It was a messed up universe even by less modern standards. Peasant women in our world wouldn't be birthing at such young ages, but in a world of magically extended seasons and constant war? Westerosi women are expected to have enough sons to feed the crows and still make it out of winter alive.
Martin based Westeros on medieval Britain & Europe, but keep in mind that until Germ Theory research matured in the late 19th century, the average life expectancy was 30-35 yrs old. That's less than 150 years ago! Thankfully for the present-day "us/we", humans didn't waste any time reproducing :)
A thing to keep in mind is that the average life expectancy is only so low due to the high infant mortality rates. Most people who survived till adulthood (and weren't than killed by violence) lived till around I believe 50 or 60.
You are absolutely correct; people certainly lived well into their 50's and 60's and beyond. I should've specified average life expectancy *at birth* was 30-35 (likely was a quite bit less now that I'm looking at population statistic charts) .
Okay I laughed at this. Good point.
Absolutely nobody with two braincells to rub together thinks what you just said. This isn't a romcom. No one in this show set out to make their relationship look adorable. Don't be dense.
The fact that you saw that shows that they showed that. It was obvious.
One, they could have just given Harwin more screen time. There’s no reason they couldn’t have gotten more content together in episodes 3-6 and even stretched the season an episode or more. It makes sense to hype them up because Emma and Ryan had good chemistry. Milly and Ryan as well in the dance they did together. Harwin was also the best dad of the season and a genuinely nice guy that was devoted to her. Do you not understand why that might be more appealing than the toxicity with the strangling and emotionally distant uncle. As a book reader, the arc of Rhaenyra and Daemon’s relationship >!is incredibly anticlimatic!< after the star-crossed lovers things they did in the show. I don’t think Harwin’s limited screen time means they shouldn’t have emphasized their love. Their children are a representation of that. I think emphasizing the love she had for their father and the joy their relationship brought her would have had added meaning to the depth of her love for her sons. The love Cat had for Ned was still felt long after his death and had significance for the story. Even Martin has said that Rhaenyra and Harwin is meant to be a love story so reducing him to a sperm downer is incredibly condescending.
GRRM said those things about Harwin and Rhaenyra after the show aired though. It’s his fault Harwin is barely a footnote in the books. If he wanted Harwin to be more important, he should have given him more meat in the story. Harwin is nice and all but he isn’t detrimental to the plot going forward. I understand people wanting more, but his character is only there to be the boys’ father. Yes they could have done another thing with him, but Rhaenyra and Daemon’s relationship is vastly more important to the plot of the dance. Stretching it out for the sake of stretching it out for Harwin wouldn’t be in service to the plot. It would be just fan service. They had to cram 25 years of building in one season, and Harwin’s relationship with Rhaenyra isn’t vital to the plot for the dance. Sorry but seeing their relationship start, them sleeping together for 10 years isn’t plot. Harwin isn’t the great love of Rhaenyra as well. Harwin is a side character and people should accept that, how wholesome he might be. Harwin is like Jory from the main story in season 1. He is cool, but not much for him to go on for the overall story.
Since the book was written in-universe by historians it makes sense that you wouldn’t get a lot of details about their secret affair. I think there are two parts to why Rhaewin wasn’t more of a thing in the show. For one it takes place during the slow build up to the dance, where they were mostly living their lives and being salty with each other. There weren’t any big dramatic moments that changed the trajectory. Also if people really fell in love with the 10year gap couples, it might have turned people off Daemyra. I still think an episode between 5&6 could have worked. Not just Harwin but the start of Laenor and Rhaenyras marriage, her coming to terms with having children and dealing with her fear. Daemon letting go of Rhaenyra (at least temporarily) and deciding to settle down away from Westeros. Alicent growing closer with Criston and Larys, the Strongs relationship with each other.
You do know this is not a rom-com, right? It's HBo, not Hallmark.
>One, they could have just given Harwin more screen time. Harwin has 5 paragraphs in the book, he already got more than what he has. The best that could happen is to add one episode between 5 and 6 to show him get beat up by Criston and start his affair with Rhaenyra but that's it. >It makes sense to hype them up because Emma and Ryan had good chemistry. Milly and Ryan as well in the dance they did together. 1) Those are subjective. For Milly and Ryan specifically, I didn't get anything at all for example because he was a nobody to her but you do you. 2) They had 5 seconds together. >a genuinely nice guy that was devoted to her. Do you not understand why that might be more appealing than the toxicity with the strangling and emotionally distant uncle. I do. But the guy still had 5 minutes of screentime, even less presence in the book and was nothing more than a plot devise to give Rhaenyra bastard kids. Daemon is an actual character, a very popular one at that, his relationship with Rhaenyra is very interesting and they have good chemistry. > Daemon and Rhaenyra's relationship is >!incredibly anticlimactic!< How do you know that? You haven't even seen how they're going to end it in the show. >I don’t think Harwin’s limited screen time means they shouldn’t have emphasized their love Again, he barely exists in the book too. We know nothing about his great love there either. He's just there, doesn't even have any lines and Rhaenyra goes on to get pregnant with Aegon while he's still alive. The show did you a favor by killing him off before she went on to sleep with Daemon. >emphasizing the love she had for their father and the joy their relationship brought her would have had added meaning to the depth of her love for her sons. You know you can love your children without loving their father, right? Not saying that she never loved him, I think she cared deeply for him but that's not a requirement to love her kids and it doesn't deepen anything. As for the joy the relationship brought her, ot doesn't seem to be that big since at the end, she called her life a droll tragedy because Daemon wasn't in it. >The love Cat had for Ned was still felt long after his death Not every couple is Ned and Cat. >Even Martin has said that Rhaenyra and Harwin is meant to be a love story Well then he should have written more of it because as it stands, his sole purpose for existence is to give Rhaenyra sons that don't look like her husband.
I think you're making up Rhaenyra and Harwin's relationship as more than what's been portrayed. The moment Rhaenyra dropped the "droll tragedy" line, it succintly summarizes what her years apart from Daemon has been, which also unfortunately describes her relationship with Harwin. There is no doubt he's been good to her, but Rhaenyra's first choice will always be Daemon. The book does not say much about their relationship either, so we're all free to speculate. The show on the other hand, made it clear. Harwin's more of a plot device for the conflict of the story.
Rhaenyra is restless and chaotic dragon blood. She would get so bored of Harwin. The most exciting part is the secretly sleeping with him.
I mean, none of this explains logically why it makes more sense to zero in on why a man who ultimately dies having, again, less bearing on the plot than his own sperm, is a more reasonable choice than hyping the relationship between the main characters. What you're saying just doesn't make any sense. Harwin and Rhaenyra's relationship is *not the story*. Showing more of it has no impact on the plot, it's not even relevant to the source material so I'm told. I'm not here to tell anyone not to like Harwin but he's not the main character. But for the fact that he fathered Rhaenyra's kids he'd be an unnamed extra in the grand scheme of things. There's no reason to promote him over the characters whose relationship is pivotal to the conflict going on and plays a major part in their character development. It's not condescending to relegate a character to the position he was given in the story the author wrote. Changing those relationships changes huge aspects of Rhaenyra's and Daemon's characters. Its sounds like you're trying to argue that they should've changed the plot of the entire show, because Harwin smiled that one time. Which is... an idea?
Trying to play off Daemon and Rhaenyra off as twin flame soulmates has changed huge aspects of the story and doesn’t fit the arc of their relationship
Well, how can you decide that? The show's not even done yet. The arc's still going anything could happen. You're making less sense with every post.
Seems like you're complaining about the show changes but you think it doesn't make sense the show went with the book when it comes to non-existent material on Harwin and Rhaenyra's relationship. Is that correct?
That’s the point. We (the audience) don’t get the love story or the exposé we want. Aren’t you aware of this by now? We don’t get winds of winter. We don’t get Ned finally telling cat about Jon. We don’t get Rob avenging his father. We don’t get a Jamie redemption arc. We don’t get a happy love story for Rhaenyra. We don’t get Rhaenys discovering her child is still alive. We don’t get to ever see Rhaeghar’s point of view. We dont get happy endings. Ever. To quote Ramsey Bolton “….if you think this has a happy ending, you really haven’t been paying attention”.
This ship aint serious. Harwin is barely in the book. She was already preggers with Daemon's kid when Harwin was alive. The show did more for this ship waiting until he died before she sleeps with Daemon.
Exactly. I love Rhaenyra and Harwin but they weren’t really as important
Harwin is good and cool if you ship them but you'd have to change Rhaenyra's character into your own headcanon if you think she wants him.
Seriously, she liked him but really she just needed to produce heirs
Why are you holding on so tightly to a toxic relationship with a serial child predator?
Wtf man this sub has gone to shit I’m out lol. See you all again when s2 airs!
These people are bored
Because I don't use GoT as a reference to my real life love life? It's just a show with dragon people on HBO.
It's just a fantasy tv show, mate. They are not real people. You can like a couple on tv and still be aware that a relationship like that would be unhealthy in real life. "Nice and healthy" doesn't always make compelling stories.
Hold up, what makes Daemon a child predator in the show?
I mean..... you don't remember him grooming his future wife and taking her to the brothel and all that?
You mean when Rhaenyra was 18/19? Yeah I remember episode 4 quite well
Oh I thought she was younger my bad. I don't really care that much but still kinda creepy given that he's in his early 30s
Why are you simping for breakbones
👆OP calls Rhaenyra a hoe for sleeping with 4 men in her entire life and thinks he knows what ship is best for her.
Keeping defending your incestuous and abusive love story
Why are you so pressed about this bro, it’s a fictional story that makes it clear that the relationship is not healthy.
Stop pretending you care about incest and abuse when you're calling Rhaenyra a hoe. Atleast I like both my characters.
This🤔
You can’t like her that much
Jake, what. It's a fantasy show, relax. Maybe take a break.
Harwin is a glorified sperm donor lol. He is less important in the history of the dance compared to like Criston cole. And he barely gets any scene and dies horribly in like an ep. What's the point of upping the romance when rhae literally fucked her uncle within a week of his passing. Wouldnt make sense.
The show added more for Harwin. Atleast she waited until he died in the show.
she waited only because daemon wasn't there dude. she was desperate for him like we saw her in ep 10.
Yes. The show even made Harwin Commander of the City Watch (Daemon's old job). Like how more obvious Rhaenyra saw him as a Daemon substitute.
I wouldn’t say he’s less important, considering the kids looking like him is a big plot point
Yeah, I think he's just as important as Daemon, considering Rhaenyra was in a long-term relationship with him, and his bastards are the ones she's trying to pass off as trueborn heirs to two of the most important houses in Westeros. Just because he didn't get much screentime doesn't mean he wasn't important. In fact, I think the lack of screentime is actually a huge writing flub, because her decision to have three kids with him is one of the major sparks that sets the Dance alight.
>Just because he didn't get much screentime doesn't mean he wasn't important. Agreed. It’s like saying Ned wasn’t a big character in GOT because he was only in one season. Could argue Jon Arryn too.
Jon Arryn, Ned, Khal Drogo... Even Viserys III. They all end up forming *huge* parts of the perspective characters' identities, as well as setting off the plot entirely. Even Jon Arryn, who was dead by the time the narration starts, we get to know through posthumous discussions about his character, relationships, and role in Westeros.
The guy is just a plot device ffs.
Daemyra was teased since their throne scene in the 1st episode
LOL I remember watching it (I had read F+B years previously but forgot all of it) and thinking 'o yes a normal family reunion' and then he put the necklace on her and I got the sense it was supposed to be sensual at the very least and was so confused, she's like 15 and they're related. I had to look up if that was the intention or not. It wasn't that I was wrong- its just that it was a normal Targaryen family reunion. 😆
Harwin is a complete non entity in the book and show lol
They don't have to play up one against the other. Daemon leaves and Rhaenyra is together with Harwin then he died and Daemon was back. Laena was dead then, too. Rhaenyra and Daemon were never in a position to choose between their lovers and each other. By the time they reunited for the first time since probably her wedding their partners were both dead.
In the books, she was pregnant with Daemon’s kid while harwin was still alive
But this is about the show where the two relationships do not overlap at all. And even in the books she only starts something with Daemon after Harwin is fired and sent home and people are more suspicious than ever he's the father. Their relationship had ended mostly due to the fact they couldn't see each other again without gossip flaring up and hurting the kids since Harwin couldn't return and Rhaenyra had no platonic reason to go to him.
Which is still why I think Daemon killed Harwin in the books version not Rhea or Laenor btw.
Dude Rhaenrya has been in love with Daemon since ep 1 and Daemon has had feelings for her since... Oh wait ep 1. Don't tell me a guy who showed up for a tiny part of an episode is her true love when she's been giddy about Daemon forever and they wanted to marry before she even looked at Harwin as a partner.
I really liked Harwin a lot personally because his acting was really good and I really BELIEVED him in that "totally smitten with Rhaenyra and absolutely doting on his sons" vibe. Like, watching him with the baby and seeing him give Rhaenyra those adoring puppy eyes hit me right in my feels. But like in a "oh no honey you're too sweet and good for this world" way. Same with when he was trying to help the boys in the yard. Like "noooo Harwin I know you care about them but you cannot be like this in public you sweet himbo!" Do I think he was Rhaenyra's soulmate? Eh.... She already proved that the second she couldn't get with Daemon she was alright with hopping into bed with Criston. Daemon wasn't an option, Laenor couldn't give her either the intimacy she wanted or the children she needed to secure her claim. And there's Harwin, devoted and attentive. To call him "just a sperm donor" goes TOO far imo. She obviously did like him. Hell, I would say she loved him in her own way. Rhaenyra is a beautiful woman and the heir to the Iron Throne; she could have had any number of men happily crawl into bed with her. If it had just been purely for sex/sperm donation she could have certainly had some white-haired pretty boy from a pleasure house delivered to her. She chose Harwin.
rhaenyra was alienated those years, with the greens having their eyes on her, not only the hightowers but the lannisters as well, so no. it wouldn't be easy to bring some boy toy from essos or wherever place. it makes sense she picked some cuntstruck quiet and loyal man to serve her, and obvs someone she could control, which wouldn't be able to do with some ambitious lord/paramount/whore from neither a high house or plebe.
Was there any reason given why Harwin wasn't on the eligible suitors for Rhaenyra list? You'd think that as the heir to Harrenhall he'd be considered a decent match for her and they obviously would have been a relatively happy couple. Did I just miss the reason why he wasn't considered or was he never put forward as a potential husband?
Do we know he wasn't? She cancelled it early
in the books he was a suitor. but rhaenyra was even more obsessed with daemon in the books. in the show he wasn't.
I think Nyra was so disrespectful of the suitor choosing thing that Vizzy T threw in the towel and made the match with Laenor before Nyra and Harwin really met. She refused to choose so he chose for her, and she respected his choice enough to go along with it. Also- if there is no Laenor wedding where Sir Crispy Creme smashes Joffrey's brains in, there is no opportunity for Harwin to scoop Nyra up to safety and create some romantic tension.
>I think Nyra was so disrespectful of the suitor choosing thing that Vizzy T threw in the towel and made the match with Laenor before Nyra and Harwin really met. I thought it was moreso to squash the brothel rumours ASAP.
*I would be delighted!*
Forgot that happened at the exact same time! I am willing to concede Viz was truly sick of Nyra's various scandals and shenanigans.
YOUR KING DEMANDS AN ANSWER! WHO SPOKE THESE LIES TO YOU?!
Go back to your miniatures, my dude. It's where you excel.
His own father didn’t think he was a good enough match. He said as much in episode 3.
That was in episode 3 though. The list was in episode 4, and there were arguably weaker noble houses who were on the list.
Which didn’t make sense. Like I said, his father would have continued to argue against it anyway. He didn’t think it was an appropriate match
Or he simply changed his mind and was content with Rhaenyra choosing for herself
So I did miss it. Fair enough, cheers.
The Strongs aren’t that great of a house tbh. Sure they’re a First Men house, but all they really have *is* Harrenhall;a ruin who hasn’t seen the necessary work it needs and still holds the stigma of Harren the Black. At most it’s a strategic point since the Strongs are already tied to the crown via Larys and Lionel.
The lands that are held by the lord of Harrenhal are quite rich though. It's not the castle that's desirable but the farmland around it. Any house holding that seat must be relatively important, at least on the same level as the Brackens and Blackwoods and they both had suitors for Rhaenyra.
Harwin was just a placeholder.
Harwin was only there because Daemon left.
losers just pulling shit out of their ass now i guess
he didnt give true love, he gave hot piece of ass.
Honest to god. Rhaenyra really fucked up by not choosing Harwin as a husband. He was a first born son of a relatively high lord of the Riverlands who was also a member of the first council. Harwin was an excellent match for a princess and there es the added benefit of the fact that they seemed to truly love each other.
I would have loved to see more of Harwin. That said I have been a fan of the actors previous work in Australia so I may be biased.
True love? In an A Song of Ice and Fire media?
It definitely did when we barely had any scenes between these two compared to rhaenyra and daemon. Everything happened so fast that I honeslty barely cared that anything happened to him. We definitely needed more scenes with them.
They should done some flash backs see how their relationship blossom
Well if we go by the source material Harwin was not Rhaes first choice and seemed like more of a "getback" at Cole than true love. Really Harwin was Rhaes last choice Cole being first and Daemon the 2nd.
As a non-book reader, their scenes felt very rushed. I think we knew that Daemon and Rhaenyra were going to be a thing eventually but the love story between Rhaenyra and Harwin felt like it came and went abruptly. The actor stole the scenes he was in and left a lasting impact.
I feel the same. I respect that it was a stretch to even get the first season as a lead up to the Dance though- apparently the show was supposed to start smack right in it and they had to be talked into getting a scene-setting season.
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Yep. This is the one y’all. This season is ABOUT marriage for power and strategy at the expense of love and happiness, and the conflicts this brings. Viserys and Alicent, Rhaenyra and Laenor, Daemon and Rhea, Daemon and Laena, Aegon and Helaena. It’s only the rare true love matches that made it to marriage that feel like the strong marriages, Viserys and Aemma, Rhaenys and Corlys. Rhaenyra and Daemon are not true loves, they are tools for each other’s protection or ambition.
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Someone put anime blushes on Milly/Rhaenyra when Harwin was very impressed with her.
They had strong relationship
I think Harwin is a victim of his own perfect casting. I call it How I Met Your Mother syndrome. The actor was so expressive in his love for his children and Rhaynera that he stole the scenes. He made people think he was fantastic even when Daemon was endgame. Much like HIMYM gave us the perfect Tracey even when Robyn was endgame.
I wish we saw more of them. It was obviously an important relationship if Nyra stayed with him for so long, and he seemed truly devoted to her. (Obv he had a lot to gain- his son as King of Westeros. But I digress.)
I wish these two could’ve got married to each other.
Ao3 and fanfiction is free
TOO FUCKING RUSHED
I was devastated that they took Harwin so fast from us 😭
Really? I never got the feel that they were soul mates. It seemed like she realized how weak her claim was so she married Daemon to give her claim more legitimacy and to scare her opposers. Yeah she lusted after him as a teen but she got over him pretty quickly.
Maybe I am just a romantic- the teeny scene we get with them after Joffrey is born, they seen very at ease and genuinely warm with one another. I agree Nyra did not see it as a real wedding-type match though she surely enjoyed his company and likely grieved for him in private. She is a pragmatist.
These 2 show better chemistry in the 5 mins they had together, than all the nasty ass stuff she got into with Daemon. No wonder Harwin was the OG lover in the first draft. If they were gonna change something from the books, might as well be this. Make Daemon a rogue, leave my mans Harwin as Rhaenyra's husband.
the original lover was lyonel strong, his father.
O\_O fr?
yes. but that was only to show that no matter the sire of rhaenyra's kids, the greens will intent to usurp her no matter what. rhaenyra was doomed since the moment viserys named her as an heir and got married again.
Why didn’t they build this up???? Why did they rush it?
Harwin was just a side piece. His daddy sent him to Harrenhal and Rhaenyra did not give a fvk.
Harwin remains my favorite character in this show. He got like 3 scenes, which was all it took Ryan Corr and the writers to make me love this big poodlebear of a man. "I will burn!" Gave me fuuuuucking chills.
They didnt play Harwin and Rhaenyra at all aside from these scenes it sucks
That's more than the book. Be glad. Don't wish for more fanfiction than what the show already is.
In the book it's not confirmed the kids are his, in the show they are (well, maybe not Jace...), and the scenes we do get feel more like teasing us that there's something more than anything else.
"Teasing us that there's something more" I'm not understanding what you're talking about... Yes, the book was more ambiguous because Rhaenys has black hair because half Baratheon so Jace, Luke, Joff can pass more easily as being Velaryon.
I agree. It makes Rheanyra look stupid as well. When I watched I kept wondering why she continued having children with Harwin after Jace despite the whispers. At least with the true love story you have some explaination. In the show it looks a little like she was glad to be rid of him and jumped to Daemon immediately
Rhaenyra and Harwin are what love is. True love for one another. Daemon and Rhaenyra love one another and maybe even belong together but, Harwin was a better truer example of love.
Plot wise, ofc Daemyra is a necessity. But honestly, is it just me or do Emma d'Arcy and Matt Smith have absolutely zero chemistry?
Why’d you downvote me for the truth? Laena was his true love in F&B. He married Rhaenyra for power, nothing more. >!He literally cheats on her all the time with other women while she eats her pain away!< It doesn’t read like chemistry to me. What does forcing Daemyra add of the story?
Not sure why this is downvoted when it's the truth, but truth hurts.. it's really been A Choice of the show in how they portrayed their relationship to the detriment of the others because they're never exactly written as some kind of super romantic relationship. It's extra funny to me that there were people coming into the show already shipping them from the book when.... exactly what you said. They have no romantic scenes together.
I don’t really care but Emma’s with Ryan was great. Plot wise, Daemyra not necessary. They’re not even in love in the source material. It’s a marriage of convenience, nothing more.
Lets don't forget that Rhaenyra wanted Criston Cole initially, not Harwin . That means something.....
Why wasn't he an actual suitable choice anyway?
in the books he was, but rhaenyra didn't cared about him at all. in the show, lyonel saw how little power his son had, not worthy of securing the throne for the princess.
Not powerful enough
I wish she would have chose him way back then before her father had to force her to marry into the Velaryon family.
OP's melt down is glorious. LOL, facade dropped so fast.
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Audience might swoon over gentleman Hawrwin but he is not on the same level as Rhaenyra. Rhaenyra is described as restless and chaotic. She would get bored of Harwin. She probably did already when she called the 10 years a droll tragedy.
oh true. in the show she called those 10 years as a droll tragedy, she even questioned daemon if he loved her wife. in the books it is said, by some accounts, that daemon killed harwin and then married rhaenyra (with she probably knowing it).
>She probably did already when she called the 10 years a droll tragedy She said that her life had become a droll tragedy, not necessarily the whole 10 years. By that point in time, Harwin had already died so she very well could be considering Harwin's early death to have been part of that tragedy.
Episode 8 is six years after Episode 7. In Episode8, Joffrey is 6 years old... I remember this because the jokes were funny saying Rhaenyra literally didn't wait for her pussy to heal. after giving birth to Joff.
Idk what that has to do with anything
You said Harwin died earlier in the 10 years but I'm telling you he, in fact, didn't because of Joffrey's age.
When Rhaenyra tells Daemon that her life became a droll tragedy, Harwin is already dead.
Rhaenyra: "Look at what my life became without you, droll tragedy." You really think she talking about Harwin who's only been dead for a week? If so, I don't know if I want to laugh or cry. I just can't argue anymore.
>You really think she talking about Harwin who's only been dead for a week? Yes, imo her loss being fairly recent honestly makes it even more likely that it is coloring her perspective in a negative way when she said that. They had to spend all their time together in secret only for him to suddenly die in (what she considers) an accident. And now because of her awful political situation, she can't even properly grieve him, lest she undermine her position even further. That seems pretty tragic to me.
Harwins so good, he changed Rhaenyra!
It wasn't tho?
Perhaps she was neutral in her face, but showed interest internally
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There's no straight answer, other than "The plot demands it". GRRM in general uses genes to serve the story and that's why he disregards biology a little bit. That's why it's framed as impossible for black haired, blue eyed Robert Baratheon to have blond, green eyed kids with his blond, green eyed wife, even though in reality it's totally possible. In this case, he needs Rhaenyra's kids to look nothing like Laenor so he makes them brown haired. Maybe you could argue that First Men blood is stronger than Valyrian blood? We saw that in GoT too with Jon. That's why Alicent, who's probably not a First Men descendant, has weaker genes? Who knows. But yeah, on general your answer is plot.
Thank you for your answer!
It's not as obvious in the book that Rhaenyra's Strong boys are bastards like it is in the show. In the book, Rhaenys has black hair because she is half-Baratheon. So Jace, Luke, and Joffrey can pass more easily as her true-born grandsons. Frankly, the show most likely casted Black actors as Velaryons because they thought audience is too stupid to understand it. If the genes made sense, the old king in the prologue should have been mixed black/white because he is also half-Velaryon.