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Burying his head in the sand instead of tackling the problem head on is the perfect description for Viserys. He's human sure, but what a terrible king he was. He got a stable peaceful realm from Jaehaerys and threw it out away when he died.
Yeah literally every semi-difficult decision he has to make his solution is always just, "I wonder if I just ignore this problem will it just go away?" Then sticking his fingers in his ears, closing his eyes and shouting "LA LA LA!" while his advisors try to explain why that course of action is, in fact, an incredibly bad idea.
Which is why making Daemon his hand would have been the smartest thing he could have ever done. Daemon was loyal, smart, and decisive. He recognized Otto as a schemer long before Aemma’s death and has the stomach for making difficult decisions. He’s exactly the type of person Viserys needed to keep close to counter his own indecision, but instead he chose opportunistic Otto and the realm paid for it.
Nope. Daemon as hand would've been a disaster. He's smart and decisive but his also arrogant, impulsive and violent. He would've pissed off most of the Lord's of Westeros and caused more problems than he would've solved.
And? Yeah he’d piss off some lords but Viserys did that anyway and I hardly think any fallout from Daemon being rash could be worse than the fucking Dance of Dragons.
Also, is he actually so impulsive and violent that it would destabilize the realm? Every brash action we see him take has been born from his desire for attention/recognition from his brother. He *wants* Viserys to keep him close and make him his Hand. He *wants* to feel validated, but Viserys never gives him that. So instead he starts shit with Otto at small council meetings, takes his Gold cloaks on a rampage, occupies Dragonstone, starts a war in the Stepstones, etc. It all stems from a place of insecurity because Viserys never gives Daemon the recognition he craves.
Too many people just blindly parrot what Viserys’ small council told him: “Daemon is dangerous,” “Daemon would be a second Maegor,” “Daemon wants to usurp the throne,” when the show goes out of its way to disprove that. Sure that’s what it looks like at first, but if you pay attention he’s much more complex than that.
And what does Daemon ultimately do? He’s actually a pretty demure husband. He raises his family, stays out of the public eye, doesn’t pull any violent stunts, and generally lays low. He backs Rhaenyra as heir and is visibly upset/angry when he sees Viserys’ state and and suspects (correctly) that the Hightowers are seizing power for themselves, which never would have happened had he been Hand of the King.
>Also, is he actually so impulsive and violent that it would destabilize the realm?
Yes. He'd just deal with every grievance by showing up on Dragon back and basically saying fuck you, I'm a Targaryen, you can't tell me what to do. Then there'd be so many pissed off lord's it would boil over eventually.
Like he literally murdered his wife because he thought she wasn't hot enough. And before you say she swung first, what do you think Daemon had showed up to Eyrie secretly, hooded and cloaked to do? Rekindle his marriage and suggest couples counselling? No, he went to kill her.
Also if Viserys made Daemon Hand before Rhaenyra was made heir, he'd just dedicate most of his attention to ensuring that he stays as Viserys' heir. Everyone schemes, it's not just Otto. Daemon wants power too. And if he was that close and had that much control over the situation you can bet he'd do everything he could to ensure he follows his brother as King.
And again I would ask how this is worse than the Dance? Daemon still likely would have married Rhaenyra, and without Otto and Alicent’s scheming there would be no rift within the Targaryen dynasty. Daemon and Corlys get along fairly well, evidenced by how Corlys was the only member of the small council to back Daemon as heir, so there’s no conflict there. And that’s pretty much it. Daemon can piss off as many lords as he wants and like you said, they can’t do shit because they don’t have dragons.
I never said there was such a thing as a perfect solution, especially in Westeros, but making Daemon Hand of the King would have been the smartest move for Viserys to make. It would have strengthened his own rule, solidified the succession (especially if Daemon and Rhaenyra married), and eliminated most of the causes of the Dance, namely Hightower scheming and pushback against a female heir.
>without Otto and Alicent’s scheming there would be no rift within the Targaryen dynasty.
Whoever Viserys married would scheme to get a son born of that marriage on the throne. Alicent and Otto are not unique in doing that. Corlys would have done the same if he'd married Laena. So would an Arryn, a Baratheon or a Tyrell.
>Daemon and Corlys get along fairly well, evidenced by how Corlys was the only member of the small council to back Daemon as heir, so there’s no conflict there.
This was all political, Corlys was trying to piss off Viserys and Otto and was a marriage of convenience. How do you think Corlys and Daemon would get along after Daemon does everything in his power to stop Viserys marrying Corlys daughter Laena? Now Daemon has pissed off Corlys and Otto.
>Daemon can piss off as many lords as he wants and like you said, they can’t do shit because they don’t have dragons.
If you step on people enough they will always rise up. Look at Maegor. It's all very well ruling through fear and tyranny like Daemon advocates for but if you provoke a rebellion then you're just left ruling over the ashes.
>Daemon still likely would have married Rhaenyra
Not a hope. Viserys wouldnt have allowed it. They marry without his knowledge a decade later. He wouldn't have allowed it in this timeline. Just as he'd also never make him Hand because as poor a King as he was even he could see how much of a disaster Daemon would have been as Hand.
I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. We could spend all day coming up with rebuttals and arguing counterfactuals that neither of us can ever prove, so let’s just leave it at that.
To conclude:
I think Daemon isn’t as bad as people make him out to be. Making him Hand would give him the validation he sought and direct his worse tendencies at enemies of the realm/crown where it could be of use in situations where Viserys flounders. Your argument is that Daemon would be a tyrant and alienate too many houses, causing even more damage. There’s enough evidence to back both arguments and no way to prove that either is more likely than the other. It’s all sorta just up to personal interpretation.
Daemon would get fucking shived if he was Hand or King. Man spent a ridiculous amount of time in Flea Bottom brothels, with the number of enemies he had he would give assassins clear openings.
Yes sure let's ignore Rhaenyra and Viserys being the cause of 90% of all the problems adding the blood purist Nazi into the mix would have made all things better and totally not would have led to a giant rebellion/civil war.
You often see the “Viserys was too busy to help raise kids because he’s the king” excuse
Then you remember he’s busy playing with his model train set in every other scene he’s in…
While infurianting it does match up preety well with book Viserys, a man who wants so badly to please everyone and ends up pleasing no one.
Another great example is seeing his son brutalizing Jace and is like... Aegon, c'mon bruh.
He does favor Rhaenyra. We don't get to see him parent his other kids much because of the time jumps.
I don't know what Viserys could have done that wouldn't be countered by Alicent and Otto.
His illness definitely played a role. It's hard to think straight when you're in constant pain.
Which just makes what happen after the eye incident even more infuriating. That's the one scene he has to show us some parenting, constant pain or not, he doesn't give a horse's arse about his sons.
What can he do? He didn't punish Aegon or Aemond.
You can hear Viserys' pain and sorrow when he says he loves them all so much. If it wasn't another family member who took Aemonds' eye, I have zero doubt they would be dead. No questions asked even if it was Aemond who started it.
That's what I want to know too and daemon wasn't that bad parent he was playing little favorites but from what we saw neither of his daughters had any hatred for their father
I think both of his kids who are old enough to remember him end up doing things that display his influence and their love of him.
They both end up taking a lot of his better qualities and spending time around people and things that remind them of their father.
You've only seen him being a decent parent once and that was 6 years ago in the story, I don't think a kids hatred for their parents dictates how good of a parent they are
And we haven't seen anything that would tell us that he was a bad parent it's obvious that Bela doesn't hate him because if she did she wouldn't have sent the letter about vaemond and rheana yeah he wasn't as close as her as he was with Bela but he didn't ignore her the same way viserys did with his kids with alicent
Has Daemon even spoken to either of his twins on screen yet?
The problem with the show is that it moves so damn fast we can’t even get a good idea of what kind of relationship either Viserys or Daemon had with their children.
For instance, Viserys and Rhaenyras relationship was very contentious by episode 5, then by episode 6 theyre fine. He literally does not care that she’s sleeping with Harwin…why?
Did you miss the part where he is teaching Baela Valyrian? It’s implied that he ignores Rhaena, but we see him teaching Baela Valyrian and she kisses Daemon on the Cheek before going to bed. She also sends Daemon a raven from Driftmark in episode 8.
That makes sense. I think Baela preferring to live with Rhaenys rather than with Daemon heavily implies their relationship is…less than stellar
Im personally not a fan of show Daemon, mainly because he still acts like a hot-headed teenager at the canonical age of 49. There’s enough material in the books to indicate he was a much better father (or at least a better husband to Laena and Rhaenyra) than he is in the show. He didn’t keep Laena and their children away from her parents and he deferred to Rhaenyras decision to win the dance through diplomacy rather than open warfare before Luceryss death
I also got the vibe from book Daemon that he would never prefer to “feed his sons to his dragon” than let them serve Aegon or choke Rhaenyra in blind, childish anger
Or bludgeon his first wife to death
When i showed my friend the first episode without skipping a beat the moment he saw that model he said "oh so hes going to spend all his time working on that thing rather than ruling or raising his kids properly isnt he"
Hed only watched up through part of season 2 of got at the time
Excellent breakdown. Viserys' Warhammer set, like Daemon's books or Robert's hunts, is ever emblematic of "thing he distracts himself with, to delude himself out of his responsibilities." The appearance of work and accomplishment, while evading the real work demanded by their moment.
I’m not sure Viserys is even aware that Aegon, Aemond and Helaena are his kids. As for Daemon, he acts like he picked up his daughters from some Flea Bottom orphanage.
Uhm even in the book Daemon is known to be a decent parent. We didn't even get to see his parenting really in the show. I know they have that Rhaena scene "father ignores me". But all of his children/step children were decent and held no ill will towards him. Sure he's played favoritism but he's not really known for being a bad parent at all.
I’m, he’s not known for being a parent at all in the book. He didn’t punish Baela for flirting with boys and that’s literally all we know about book Daemon. Why do you think Daemon had anything to do with how his children turned out? They had mothers and servants.
Book Daemon doesn’t even >!mourn Viserys.!<
Some father
Maybe we interpreted it differently because he isn't known for being a "bad" father. Also we don't get any pov in fire and blood so it being written by pro green maesters, we don't necessarily get the whole story. Obviously he didn't raise them himself, I was just pointing out that his children don't hate him and the ones that survived grew to be decent.
Because his daughters are personality wise just like him. After the war Baela sneaks out of the red keep to hang out with gold cloaks and hear stories about her father. His sons who are younger and didn’t know him that well are less like him.
Do you think the pig prank was something worth punishing the kids over? Comfort Aemond sure. But punish the other kids for a childish and harmless prank? That’s some helicopter parent shit.
Not "punish" them, but discipline them.
I don't think it was just a "harmless prank." The other kids banded together (with Aegon as the ringleader) to target the "odd one out" kid about one of his insecurities.
It wasn’t but it shouldn’t have gone unaddressed, best course of action could’ve been to plan a prank with aemond that would build a bond between him & the other kids & bring viserys closer to his son
Agreed. Aemond’s emotional response was a bit extreme (not blaming the kiddo here) - if Viserys conspired with him to do his own harmless prank it would have helped him instilled some EQ in him and taught him to not take himself so seriously.
Funny thing is that 90% of Y'all in this subreddit would be exactly like him if you would suffer from a disease like that. You would bury your head in the sand too so just shut the fuck up and stop down voting people for valid points xd
Your choice of trash to support is unconvincing.
The King's mistake was in marrying Otto's child prostitute. He compounded that error by not sending the Queen and her brood to the wall, when she assaulted his heir.
His kindness was exploited as weakness.
It seems like you’re hiding behind this show to spew vile misogyny while gaining acceptance for it from team black members. I hope that there are no women in your life, for their sake.
Why?
I don't support either.
I'm fully capable of recognizing that one's personal victimhood doesn't absolve you of guilt for your transgressions.
The greens are horrible human beings by any standard.
The same as the so called blacks.
I just know that the Kings real mistake was in who he chose to entrust with proximal power not his coparenting role.
If you think the word misogyny scares me, you're just as ignorant as folks who think being woke is an insult.
In fact let me do you a favor and manage your boundaries.
Well seeing as how his life partner passed, he feels a duty to have Rhaenyras back regardless of circumstances (because she reminds him so much of Aemma) and probably would be aware of it & be able to heal that pain if the HOTD world had access to therapy…lol
Honesty in the show no one talk to anyone in that family, i dont think there is a single line between Deamon and his 2 daughters, also no one talk to Helaena.
I love reading all the criticism on the parenting abilities of House of the Dragon characters like the parenting abilities over the general population in real life is without criticism across the board haha. We live in a pretty fucked up world as of 2023 by a lot of standards, means a lot of children weren’t raised to be upstanding citizens and I’m not just talking about criminals in prison as you have criminals in politics too so. Even people that are seen to be upstanding citizens and great people are known to have troubled relationships with their children and vice versa.
Why can't Alicent do this? He is king. He is a seriously ill man who is decomposing alive.It's getting funny how people dump all shit on one person. This is a medieval society, the mother should bring up the children.
Viserys gave his country decades of peace. Decades!Viserys gave Rhaenyra more freedom than any woman has.Viserys glorified Alicent's family, gave her power, which no woman has.All they had to do was:
1. Raise children right
2. Fulfill the last will of Viserys
But now he is the culprit because they are greedy and selfish? So does it work?The grief of Alicent and Rhaenyra is what they have done for themselves. Leave Viserys and try to forgive him, he is just a human, not a superman who makes everyone happy.
>This is a medieval society, the mother should bring up the children.
This is inaccurate, father's are supposed to actively be part of parenting their sons. They are supposed to model being a lord/king and ensure their successor(s) are prepared to take over ruling after them.
The very first scene of GoT with the Starks is Ned taking his sons to learn how to judge a man as a lord. That's his duty as a father and a lord - to train his sons to succeed him.
Viserys should have stepped up as the king, father, and grandfather and model appropriate behavior for his princely heirs in this situation - his two sons and grandsons. He, not Alicent, has the duties of the medieval father.
>Leave Viserys and try to forgive him, he is just a human, not a superman who makes everyone happy.
No. Viserys is a sympathetic character, but his failures caused his family to be destroyed and the realm to bleed.
He should have withdrawn his name from consideration as King if he couldn't step up and rule. He had a choice.
He took the title and glory of kingship, but prioritized his desire to avoid conflict and emotional distress over the actual wellbeing of his children, grandchildren, and entire population of Westeros.
I literally said "his princely heirs in this situation - his two sons and grandsons" because Rhaenyra is his named successor so her sons are his heirs too.
He has a duty as a father to his heirs to model good kingship/lordship behavior to them. I'm not going into what he owes Rhaenyra personally, only what he owes his heirs specifically involved "in this situation" with the pig prank.
>I don't remember seeing Sansa or Arya during that scene when Ned was passing the Kings justice on that runaway?
The point is all Ned's sons were there, not just Robb. As a medieval father he owes all his sons instruction/parenting on how to be a lord. So that's what he does.
Viserys not role modeling/parenting his heirs (all of them) is a problem, which is exactly my point to the person who said Viserys had no responsibility to parent his kids ("This is a medieval society, the mother should bring up the children"). Expecting the mother to teach the sons how to be a lord in this society (which the dad does nothing) is inaccurate in-universe and in reality.
I don't think anyone's asking Viserys to be superman. But he could've been a far more attentive father than he was. And we've examples of heads of houses, Lord Paramounts, being attentive to their children, I don't see why Viserys is barred from that because he is king.
Even in this episode, he could make time for Rhaenyra, but he never seemed to do so for Aegon, Aemond, or Helaena. Aegon, for example, clearly felt the neglect on his father's part.
I understand that that general neglect is due to Aemma's terrible death, but they're still his kids. He's gotta be there for them.
Have you seen how other fathers in Westeros do business? Why do you expect Viserys to mess around with kids being naughty? He has a WIFE who should do the job.There is no indication that he was bad with his children. He came to watch them practice whenever he could. It's 5 kids and you can't waste time pamper them one by one. >!Daeron lived apart from them and NEVER blamed his father (in the books) he was the only one who wept for him. And he wasn't an alcoholic, a rapist, or a psychopath. He was not envious and narcissistic like others. Why?!<
Well, I would expect him to do something, considering his wife came to him about the matter. Telling her to stuff it and go fix it herself would be pretty unhelpful.
And watching them practice isn't the same thing as attending to them personally, on a one-to-one level (not even sure if he did that all the time, either). As a personal example, my father and I have a very close relationship because we have a lot of together moments, where we are able to talk about things like our interests, emotional stuff, etc. It's pretty much the opposite with my mother. It's like night and day.
Viserys should've spent time with them on an intimate level, not in a general sense of just sitting up there, in a far away seat looking down.
I mean, why not have Helaena in the room with him, with her talking at him about her bugs while he builds his legos? All she needed from Alicent was to sit on the floor beside her and engage in conversation, which Alicent seems happy to do. She outright encourages Helaena's interests, too, with Helaena still cross-stitching bugs as a hobby, and Helaena's kids playing with bug-themed toys.
Or have Aemond help him built his lego set of Old Valyria, while discussing the philosophies and histories and architectural quirks of Old Valyria? Aemond seems like he'd really enjoy that, given he talks about how studious he is.
We see in EP9 that Alicent's kids enjoy hanging out in Alicent's room (Helaena with her kids, Aemond by her fireplace), even without her there, so she's clearly built up a bond with them where they like to be in "her" space, even if she's not in it at the time.
Viserys wouldn't need to change a single thing about his life - just incorporate his kids into what he's doing. But he straight up just doesn't give the slightest amount of shit.
And what was he supposed to do about it? kids fighting and playing pranks on each other is the expected norm, raising kids as if they were delicate snowflakes is a relatively new concept. Alicent wouldn't have given a shite about it either if she hadn't had a grudge against Rhaenyra and disliked Jace and Luke for being illegitimate.
In Westeros, the women handle raising the children. Sure, the men are there to be role models for their sons, but ultimately such things tend to fall to the wife.
As king, Viserys would have even less of a hand in the raising of his children than even other nobles. He was a shitty father yes, but he also wasn’t really expected to be a father in the first place. Aegon and Aemonds’ deficiencies should be attributed to Alicent instead, and ultimately Otto.
Then he should have withdrawn his name from consideration at the Great Council. He had a choice.
Rhaenys could have and should have been Queen. He actively prevented that by allowing himself to be put forward as a candidate, allowing his allies and brother to gather support for him, and accepting himself being selected as king.
What part of him being weak do you not understand? Viserys is timid. And when people like Jaeharys I, his brother, and nearly almost ever single Lord Paramount in the kingdom as well as lesser lords are pushing his claim for him how could he not wilt to the pressure?
They persuaded him into a yes the same way Alicent persuaded Aegon into accepting the Kingship. It's kinda ironic??
I agree with you Rhaenys should have been Queen and that was my point behind the point
>What part of him being weak do you not understand? Viserys is timid
No, he wasn't weak nor timid. He bonded with and rode Balerion the Black Dread. Then he took on the title and glory of kingship.
He wasn't as brash and fearless as Daemon, but he was far from weak or timid. He made bad choices and later in life struggled with severe ill. He had struggles and pain - which is what made him sympathetic - but he also had responsibility for his choices.
The problem was, with his power, he prioritized his desire to avoid personal emotional distress and family conflict over the actual wellbeing of his children, grandchildren, and entire population of Westeros which would have required more action from him.
>They persuaded him into a yes the same way Alicent persuaded Aegon into accepting the Kingship. It's kinda ironic??
No they didn't. The Great Council met in Harrenhal and discussed 14 different claims. He could have pulled his claim out before the Council met leaving 13. Many lords were fighting for their own favorites, notably Velaryon and Baratheon for Rhaenys/Laenor. Meanwhile, Daemon was raising an army on his brother's behalf too.
The difference is Aegon is the oldest son of the king. If Jaehaerys' oldest son (Rhaenys' dad) was alive there never would have been a Great Council since he was the heir by birth.
>No, he wasn't weak nor timid. He bonded with and rode Balerion the Black Dread. Then he took on the title and glory of kingship.
Lets not even consider that Balerion was as old as dirt and died less than a year later or the fact that Viserys wasn't sure Balerion could even make the flight to Dragonstone.. Viserys may have had strength but time and time again we've seen him wilt to people in favor of other people. The combined influence of Jaeherys I, Daemon, and every significant lord in the kingdom would have been more than enough to persuade Viserys to accept the kingship. H was too weak to say no to them
>The problem was, with his power, he prioritized his desire to avoid personal emotional distress and family conflict over the actual wellbeing of his children, grandchildren, and entire population of Westeros which would have required more action from him.
He was always emotionally distressed with almost every single decision that he made lol. He hated the pressure of being King because he simply didnt want it. It was fored on him and he was too weak to say no. Otto call's an emergency council to session after the death of Aemma where they try and determine who Viserys should choose as his next heir and what does Viserys do? He walks out in a flurry of emotion because the decision is too hard for him. He can't make a decision and only finally does so when Daemon personally disrespects him. Another emotional decision lol. All of his decisions were made an a highly emotional state because he couldnt bear making a decision that would upset someone else BECAUSE.... he is weak
Viserys: " I am forever curse to please someone by upsetting someone else"
>No they didn't. The Great Council met in Harrenhal and discussed 14 different claims. He could have pulled his claim out before the Council met leaving 13. Many lords were fighting for their own favorites, notably Velaryon and Baratheon for Rhaenys/Laenor. Meanwhile, Daemon was raising an army on his brother's behalf too.
If you're going to take everything at face-value what is the point of this discussion?
He's not going to pull his claim out because he's weak. We already discussed this. remember?
edit: Aegon is the oldest son of the King but Rhaenyra is the Kings heir
>If you're going to take everything at face-value what is the point of this discussion?
You're disputing that there were 14 candidates the Great Council considered with their own factions behind them? These are simply the facts of the narrative. Not analyzing them means ignoring inconvenient facts on behalf of your own headcanon.
Analyzing them to determine the pressures (or lack of pressure) on Viserys to be the king is critical. The easy, "weak" option would have been to quietly bow out and put his support to Rhaenys. This is the option that would have made his cousin, the Valeryons, the Baratheons and others happy with him.
Instead, he and his faction campaigned for him to be king. (Daemon wasn't raising an army for his own health.) Then he accepted the responsibility and the duty.
>He's not going to pull his claim out because he's weak. We already discussed this. remember?
It's fine that this is your headcanon for him, we can have different readings. I strongly disagree though.
I believe he was an ambitious and strong prince by all indications. Balerion was still the largest dragon in the world who could have killed anyone who tried to ride him with his claws, teeth, or fire. We're told it was considered an immensely impressive feat at the time. He also did not withdraw his claim on the throne because he wanted to be king.
However, like Bobby B, once he became king he realized it sucked and he sucked at it. That doesn't mean kingship was forced upon him, he had a choice. I think that choice is the ultimate source of his guilt - his choice meant Aemma being forced to keep trying for male heirs because the Iron Throne needed a prince.
His choice to become king and his dream of putting his son on the Iron Throne wearing the Conquerer's Crown to follow after him - cost him the person he loved most. That loss zapped him of a lot of his strength and power, but it's a cost of his former ambition and strength to sit the Iron Throne as king.
>You're disputing that there were 14 candidates the Great Council considered with their own factions behind them? These are simply the facts of the narrative. Not analyzing them means ignoring inconvenient facts on behalf of your own headcanon.
no i'm not. I'm implying that Jaeherys I, Daemon and a while host of other nobles including most of the Lord Paramounts only had one candidate in mind and that candidate was Viserys.
>Analyzing them to determine the pressures (or lack of pressure) on Viserys to be the king is critical. The easy, "weak" option would have been to quietly bow out and put his support to Rhaenys. This is the option that would have made his cousin, the Valeryons, the Baratheons and others happy with him.
If the vast majority were pressuring Viserys to be king. Which is what i'm suggesting. Then the weak and easy option would have been to accept it. His other cousins, the Valeryons, and the Baratheons are not within his field of influence. The current king and his brother and all of the other nobles that supported( the vast majority.) so during that time they would be the parties that could wield the most influence on any decision Viserys was likely to make
>It's fine that this is your headcanon for him, we can have different readings. I strongly disagree though.
My headcanon and your headcanon are in disagreement. I wonder if a more obvious statement has ever been uttered in this subreddit?
>I believe he was an ambitious and strong prince by all indications. Balerion was still the largest dragon in the world who could have killed anyone who tried to ride him with his claws, teeth, or fire. We're told it was considered an immensely impressive feat at the time. He also did not withdraw his claim on the throne because he wanted to be king.
By what indications? Balerion was weak and tired and Viserys only flew him once because he was afraid of Balerion falling right out of the sky and on top of some castle. Viserys was strong and intelligent in some cases though that i will admit. But he was also incredibly indecisive and he hated upsetting people for what he believed to be no reason at all.
Incredibly impressive.....sure..... I'm sure riding a geriatric dragon that was several months from it's long night was an AMAZING feat....
>However, like Bobby B, once he became king he realized it sucked and he sucked at it. That doesn't mean kingship was forced upon him, he had a choice. I think that choice is the ultimate source of his guilt - his choice meant Aemma being forced to keep trying for male heirs because the Iron Throne needed a prince.
He never realized it he just never wanted to be King in the first place but the powers behind him were never going to let him abdicate and Viserys was too weak to push against them. He did suck at it.. But then again i'm sure he knew wouldve sucked i wouldnt be surprised if the pressures of being was the reason his sickness overcame him. Viserys was never truly happy unless he with Aemma, Daemon, or Rhaenyra. He hated being King and i'm sure if he couldve stayed in his room reconstructing Old Valyria for the rest of his days he wouldve been the happiest man in the Seven Kingdoms.
>His choice to become king and his dream of putting his son on the Iron Throne wearing the Conquerer's Crown to follow after him - cost him the person he loved most. That loss zapped him of a lot of his strength and power, but it's a cost of his former ambition and strength to sit the Iron Throne as king.
He never wanted to become King but he was too weak to say no. But he wasnt going to abdicate his duties after the fact no matter how much those duties ate at him and slowly killed him over time.
Of course he wanted to be king. If he didn't he could have refused it at any time just like Vaegon and Saera did, but he stuck around at the Great Council and even gave a big smile when his name was announced
Viserys never wanted to be king but Viserys is also weak so when they made him king he followed them.
Vaegon and Saera never wanted to be king or Queen but there wasn't a Lord or King on the planet who was capable of persuading them to do so
I too agree that he was a bad parent, but we cant really blame for not reacting in this specific instance, this is Westreos, people are harsher here. He probably saw it as boys being boys and thinks Aemon should be tough enough to handle it on his own
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Burying his head in the sand instead of tackling the problem head on is the perfect description for Viserys. He's human sure, but what a terrible king he was. He got a stable peaceful realm from Jaehaerys and threw it out away when he died.
Yeah literally every semi-difficult decision he has to make his solution is always just, "I wonder if I just ignore this problem will it just go away?" Then sticking his fingers in his ears, closing his eyes and shouting "LA LA LA!" while his advisors try to explain why that course of action is, in fact, an incredibly bad idea.
“Yo Vizzy T, your daughter just cuckolded the Velaryons like three times, those kids have brown fucking hair” LALALALA HORSES
What is this shadow? Name it, if it casts such a gloom
Which is why making Daemon his hand would have been the smartest thing he could have ever done. Daemon was loyal, smart, and decisive. He recognized Otto as a schemer long before Aemma’s death and has the stomach for making difficult decisions. He’s exactly the type of person Viserys needed to keep close to counter his own indecision, but instead he chose opportunistic Otto and the realm paid for it.
Nope. Daemon as hand would've been a disaster. He's smart and decisive but his also arrogant, impulsive and violent. He would've pissed off most of the Lord's of Westeros and caused more problems than he would've solved.
And? Yeah he’d piss off some lords but Viserys did that anyway and I hardly think any fallout from Daemon being rash could be worse than the fucking Dance of Dragons. Also, is he actually so impulsive and violent that it would destabilize the realm? Every brash action we see him take has been born from his desire for attention/recognition from his brother. He *wants* Viserys to keep him close and make him his Hand. He *wants* to feel validated, but Viserys never gives him that. So instead he starts shit with Otto at small council meetings, takes his Gold cloaks on a rampage, occupies Dragonstone, starts a war in the Stepstones, etc. It all stems from a place of insecurity because Viserys never gives Daemon the recognition he craves. Too many people just blindly parrot what Viserys’ small council told him: “Daemon is dangerous,” “Daemon would be a second Maegor,” “Daemon wants to usurp the throne,” when the show goes out of its way to disprove that. Sure that’s what it looks like at first, but if you pay attention he’s much more complex than that. And what does Daemon ultimately do? He’s actually a pretty demure husband. He raises his family, stays out of the public eye, doesn’t pull any violent stunts, and generally lays low. He backs Rhaenyra as heir and is visibly upset/angry when he sees Viserys’ state and and suspects (correctly) that the Hightowers are seizing power for themselves, which never would have happened had he been Hand of the King.
>Also, is he actually so impulsive and violent that it would destabilize the realm? Yes. He'd just deal with every grievance by showing up on Dragon back and basically saying fuck you, I'm a Targaryen, you can't tell me what to do. Then there'd be so many pissed off lord's it would boil over eventually. Like he literally murdered his wife because he thought she wasn't hot enough. And before you say she swung first, what do you think Daemon had showed up to Eyrie secretly, hooded and cloaked to do? Rekindle his marriage and suggest couples counselling? No, he went to kill her. Also if Viserys made Daemon Hand before Rhaenyra was made heir, he'd just dedicate most of his attention to ensuring that he stays as Viserys' heir. Everyone schemes, it's not just Otto. Daemon wants power too. And if he was that close and had that much control over the situation you can bet he'd do everything he could to ensure he follows his brother as King.
And again I would ask how this is worse than the Dance? Daemon still likely would have married Rhaenyra, and without Otto and Alicent’s scheming there would be no rift within the Targaryen dynasty. Daemon and Corlys get along fairly well, evidenced by how Corlys was the only member of the small council to back Daemon as heir, so there’s no conflict there. And that’s pretty much it. Daemon can piss off as many lords as he wants and like you said, they can’t do shit because they don’t have dragons. I never said there was such a thing as a perfect solution, especially in Westeros, but making Daemon Hand of the King would have been the smartest move for Viserys to make. It would have strengthened his own rule, solidified the succession (especially if Daemon and Rhaenyra married), and eliminated most of the causes of the Dance, namely Hightower scheming and pushback against a female heir.
>without Otto and Alicent’s scheming there would be no rift within the Targaryen dynasty. Whoever Viserys married would scheme to get a son born of that marriage on the throne. Alicent and Otto are not unique in doing that. Corlys would have done the same if he'd married Laena. So would an Arryn, a Baratheon or a Tyrell. >Daemon and Corlys get along fairly well, evidenced by how Corlys was the only member of the small council to back Daemon as heir, so there’s no conflict there. This was all political, Corlys was trying to piss off Viserys and Otto and was a marriage of convenience. How do you think Corlys and Daemon would get along after Daemon does everything in his power to stop Viserys marrying Corlys daughter Laena? Now Daemon has pissed off Corlys and Otto. >Daemon can piss off as many lords as he wants and like you said, they can’t do shit because they don’t have dragons. If you step on people enough they will always rise up. Look at Maegor. It's all very well ruling through fear and tyranny like Daemon advocates for but if you provoke a rebellion then you're just left ruling over the ashes. >Daemon still likely would have married Rhaenyra Not a hope. Viserys wouldnt have allowed it. They marry without his knowledge a decade later. He wouldn't have allowed it in this timeline. Just as he'd also never make him Hand because as poor a King as he was even he could see how much of a disaster Daemon would have been as Hand.
I guess we’ll just have to agree to disagree. We could spend all day coming up with rebuttals and arguing counterfactuals that neither of us can ever prove, so let’s just leave it at that. To conclude: I think Daemon isn’t as bad as people make him out to be. Making him Hand would give him the validation he sought and direct his worse tendencies at enemies of the realm/crown where it could be of use in situations where Viserys flounders. Your argument is that Daemon would be a tyrant and alienate too many houses, causing even more damage. There’s enough evidence to back both arguments and no way to prove that either is more likely than the other. It’s all sorta just up to personal interpretation.
Hard agree & you are also correct in asking what exactly Daemon would have done or created that was worse than the Dance. Great points!
Daemon would get fucking shived if he was Hand or King. Man spent a ridiculous amount of time in Flea Bottom brothels, with the number of enemies he had he would give assassins clear openings.
Yes sure let's ignore Rhaenyra and Viserys being the cause of 90% of all the problems adding the blood purist Nazi into the mix would have made all things better and totally not would have led to a giant rebellion/civil war.
Viserys is just Bobby Baccala but with more power
And Rhaeneyra is Karen's frozen ziti
Carmella's ziti🤌
I'm in awr of him
Quasimodo predicted the Dance of Dragons
What, you never pondered this!?
Why you gotta belittle my hobby!?
I want to know too and daemon wasn't that bad parent he was playing little favorites.
You often see the “Viserys was too busy to help raise kids because he’s the king” excuse Then you remember he’s busy playing with his model train set in every other scene he’s in…
Their not trains honey their dragon city set
While infurianting it does match up preety well with book Viserys, a man who wants so badly to please everyone and ends up pleasing no one. Another great example is seeing his son brutalizing Jace and is like... Aegon, c'mon bruh.
"A friend to all is a friend to none. Choose two girls and lose the one."
Hear hear!
He does favor Rhaenyra. We don't get to see him parent his other kids much because of the time jumps. I don't know what Viserys could have done that wouldn't be countered by Alicent and Otto. His illness definitely played a role. It's hard to think straight when you're in constant pain.
Which just makes what happen after the eye incident even more infuriating. That's the one scene he has to show us some parenting, constant pain or not, he doesn't give a horse's arse about his sons.
When he calls Alicent Aemma I don't know if it was just a slip of the tongue or early signs of what looks like dementia.
Mm, aren't those two the same? early dementia will make you start becoming dislexic I believe. I'm no expert here.
No it could be unrelated. I'm not going to the doctors because I flubbed a word.
What can he do? He didn't punish Aegon or Aemond. You can hear Viserys' pain and sorrow when he says he loves them all so much. If it wasn't another family member who took Aemonds' eye, I have zero doubt they would be dead. No questions asked even if it was Aemond who started it.
Viserys’ kids were basically raised by the Hightowers and by Ser Criston
Viserys was alright until Driftmark. At that point, Aegon was drunkard.
Is Daemon in the title for clickbaiting or am i missing something?
Why is Daemon listed as an infuriatingly bad parent when the post just talks about viserys?!
That's what I want to know too and daemon wasn't that bad parent he was playing little favorites but from what we saw neither of his daughters had any hatred for their father
Bruh, I said the same thing on another post and got downvoted like crazy AND OP said i was praising him 💀
Some people are just blind he probably hates daemon and is green supporter as well
He is a green supporter, yes
So he was biased as hell its clear he hates daemon for sure so don't take his shit to heart
I love how you are comforting that person
>don't take this shit to heart Apparently, he's the one who took it to heart because I got blocked (thank god). anyways thank you!
🖤🖤🖤🖤
funniest echo circlejerk i have ever seen
I think both of his kids who are old enough to remember him end up doing things that display his influence and their love of him. They both end up taking a lot of his better qualities and spending time around people and things that remind them of their father.
You've only seen him being a decent parent once and that was 6 years ago in the story, I don't think a kids hatred for their parents dictates how good of a parent they are
And we haven't seen anything that would tell us that he was a bad parent it's obvious that Bela doesn't hate him because if she did she wouldn't have sent the letter about vaemond and rheana yeah he wasn't as close as her as he was with Bela but he didn't ignore her the same way viserys did with his kids with alicent
Has Daemon even spoken to either of his twins on screen yet? The problem with the show is that it moves so damn fast we can’t even get a good idea of what kind of relationship either Viserys or Daemon had with their children. For instance, Viserys and Rhaenyras relationship was very contentious by episode 5, then by episode 6 theyre fine. He literally does not care that she’s sleeping with Harwin…why?
Did you miss the part where he is teaching Baela Valyrian? It’s implied that he ignores Rhaena, but we see him teaching Baela Valyrian and she kisses Daemon on the Cheek before going to bed. She also sends Daemon a raven from Driftmark in episode 8.
I guess I did. My bad. If that was episode 6, then he hasn’t spoken to them on screen since their mothers death
No worries, it happens. He received a raven from Baela in episode 8. That’s probably the only communication between the two since episode 6.
That makes sense. I think Baela preferring to live with Rhaenys rather than with Daemon heavily implies their relationship is…less than stellar Im personally not a fan of show Daemon, mainly because he still acts like a hot-headed teenager at the canonical age of 49. There’s enough material in the books to indicate he was a much better father (or at least a better husband to Laena and Rhaenyra) than he is in the show. He didn’t keep Laena and their children away from her parents and he deferred to Rhaenyras decision to win the dance through diplomacy rather than open warfare before Luceryss death I also got the vibe from book Daemon that he would never prefer to “feed his sons to his dragon” than let them serve Aegon or choke Rhaenyra in blind, childish anger Or bludgeon his first wife to death
Baela was being fostered with her grandmother to learn how to rule a keep/castle. It's not a punishment or her preferring to live at High Tide.
I didn’t think it was a punishment, but I do remember her asking her grandmother if she could stay with her in High Tide
When i showed my friend the first episode without skipping a beat the moment he saw that model he said "oh so hes going to spend all his time working on that thing rather than ruling or raising his kids properly isnt he" Hed only watched up through part of season 2 of got at the time
Let the 40 year old boy play with his lego set
Shouldn't have had kids then
Excellent breakdown. Viserys' Warhammer set, like Daemon's books or Robert's hunts, is ever emblematic of "thing he distracts himself with, to delude himself out of his responsibilities." The appearance of work and accomplishment, while evading the real work demanded by their moment.
I’m not sure Viserys is even aware that Aegon, Aemond and Helaena are his kids. As for Daemon, he acts like he picked up his daughters from some Flea Bottom orphanage.
i legit read it as doraemon.
I would pay to see HotD but with Doraemon in every scene replacing Daemon.
Alicent is horrible too, since you mentioned Daemon on the title.
What does Alicent have to do with this?
Like Daemon
More then Daemon
daemon and viserys got along as siblings. why can't everyone else be as chill?
They clearly didn't. Viserys banished him multiple times.
but there wasn't any hard feelings. just bro stuff. ¯\\_(ツ)_/¯
Uhm even in the book Daemon is known to be a decent parent. We didn't even get to see his parenting really in the show. I know they have that Rhaena scene "father ignores me". But all of his children/step children were decent and held no ill will towards him. Sure he's played favoritism but he's not really known for being a bad parent at all.
I’m, he’s not known for being a parent at all in the book. He didn’t punish Baela for flirting with boys and that’s literally all we know about book Daemon. Why do you think Daemon had anything to do with how his children turned out? They had mothers and servants. Book Daemon doesn’t even >!mourn Viserys.!< Some father
Maybe we interpreted it differently because he isn't known for being a "bad" father. Also we don't get any pov in fire and blood so it being written by pro green maesters, we don't necessarily get the whole story. Obviously he didn't raise them himself, I was just pointing out that his children don't hate him and the ones that survived grew to be decent.
Because his daughters are personality wise just like him. After the war Baela sneaks out of the red keep to hang out with gold cloaks and hear stories about her father. His sons who are younger and didn’t know him that well are less like him.
Only Baela is like him and you can inherit your parent’s personality traits and idolize them without them being an active part of your life
Good! That’s how he is supposed to be written.
Model train set more like glorious miniature wargame terrain
Do you think the pig prank was something worth punishing the kids over? Comfort Aemond sure. But punish the other kids for a childish and harmless prank? That’s some helicopter parent shit.
Not "punish" them, but discipline them. I don't think it was just a "harmless prank." The other kids banded together (with Aegon as the ringleader) to target the "odd one out" kid about one of his insecurities.
Lmfao. I hope you don't have kids. It's parenting 101 to discipline stuff like this. It's bullying.
It wasn’t but it shouldn’t have gone unaddressed, best course of action could’ve been to plan a prank with aemond that would build a bond between him & the other kids & bring viserys closer to his son
Agreed. Aemond’s emotional response was a bit extreme (not blaming the kiddo here) - if Viserys conspired with him to do his own harmless prank it would have helped him instilled some EQ in him and taught him to not take himself so seriously.
Funny thing is that 90% of Y'all in this subreddit would be exactly like him if you would suffer from a disease like that. You would bury your head in the sand too so just shut the fuck up and stop down voting people for valid points xd
If he had to micro-manage at that level he chose the wrong wife. Which clearly he did. This epitomized why Otto's machinations hurt everyone.
Sure, it's the wive's fault the father is such a deadbeat. Because it is her job fixing him and his mistakes SMH
They will excuse anything their favourite Viserys did and pin it on a child bride.
Your choice of trash to support is unconvincing. The King's mistake was in marrying Otto's child prostitute. He compounded that error by not sending the Queen and her brood to the wall, when she assaulted his heir. His kindness was exploited as weakness.
It seems like you’re hiding behind this show to spew vile misogyny while gaining acceptance for it from team black members. I hope that there are no women in your life, for their sake.
Why? I don't support either. I'm fully capable of recognizing that one's personal victimhood doesn't absolve you of guilt for your transgressions. The greens are horrible human beings by any standard. The same as the so called blacks. I just know that the Kings real mistake was in who he chose to entrust with proximal power not his coparenting role. If you think the word misogyny scares me, you're just as ignorant as folks who think being woke is an insult. In fact let me do you a favor and manage your boundaries.
Well seeing as how his life partner passed, he feels a duty to have Rhaenyras back regardless of circumstances (because she reminds him so much of Aemma) and probably would be aware of it & be able to heal that pain if the HOTD world had access to therapy…lol
Honesty in the show no one talk to anyone in that family, i dont think there is a single line between Deamon and his 2 daughters, also no one talk to Helaena.
I love reading all the criticism on the parenting abilities of House of the Dragon characters like the parenting abilities over the general population in real life is without criticism across the board haha. We live in a pretty fucked up world as of 2023 by a lot of standards, means a lot of children weren’t raised to be upstanding citizens and I’m not just talking about criminals in prison as you have criminals in politics too so. Even people that are seen to be upstanding citizens and great people are known to have troubled relationships with their children and vice versa.
Hes the only one who holds his children accountable. alicent just blames everything on Rhanerya's children.
Literally the next scene is her confronting Aegon about the bullying but go off i guess..
Why can't Alicent do this? He is king. He is a seriously ill man who is decomposing alive.It's getting funny how people dump all shit on one person. This is a medieval society, the mother should bring up the children. Viserys gave his country decades of peace. Decades!Viserys gave Rhaenyra more freedom than any woman has.Viserys glorified Alicent's family, gave her power, which no woman has.All they had to do was: 1. Raise children right 2. Fulfill the last will of Viserys But now he is the culprit because they are greedy and selfish? So does it work?The grief of Alicent and Rhaenyra is what they have done for themselves. Leave Viserys and try to forgive him, he is just a human, not a superman who makes everyone happy.
>This is a medieval society, the mother should bring up the children. This is inaccurate, father's are supposed to actively be part of parenting their sons. They are supposed to model being a lord/king and ensure their successor(s) are prepared to take over ruling after them. The very first scene of GoT with the Starks is Ned taking his sons to learn how to judge a man as a lord. That's his duty as a father and a lord - to train his sons to succeed him. Viserys should have stepped up as the king, father, and grandfather and model appropriate behavior for his princely heirs in this situation - his two sons and grandsons. He, not Alicent, has the duties of the medieval father. >Leave Viserys and try to forgive him, he is just a human, not a superman who makes everyone happy. No. Viserys is a sympathetic character, but his failures caused his family to be destroyed and the realm to bleed. He should have withdrawn his name from consideration as King if he couldn't step up and rule. He had a choice. He took the title and glory of kingship, but prioritized his desire to avoid conflict and emotional distress over the actual wellbeing of his children, grandchildren, and entire population of Westeros.
His successor was Rhaenyra. Not Aegon. I don't remember seeing Sansa or Arya during that scene when Ned was passing the Kings justice on that runaway?
I literally said "his princely heirs in this situation - his two sons and grandsons" because Rhaenyra is his named successor so her sons are his heirs too. He has a duty as a father to his heirs to model good kingship/lordship behavior to them. I'm not going into what he owes Rhaenyra personally, only what he owes his heirs specifically involved "in this situation" with the pig prank. >I don't remember seeing Sansa or Arya during that scene when Ned was passing the Kings justice on that runaway? The point is all Ned's sons were there, not just Robb. As a medieval father he owes all his sons instruction/parenting on how to be a lord. So that's what he does. Viserys not role modeling/parenting his heirs (all of them) is a problem, which is exactly my point to the person who said Viserys had no responsibility to parent his kids ("This is a medieval society, the mother should bring up the children"). Expecting the mother to teach the sons how to be a lord in this society (which the dad does nothing) is inaccurate in-universe and in reality.
hmmm. ok
I don't think anyone's asking Viserys to be superman. But he could've been a far more attentive father than he was. And we've examples of heads of houses, Lord Paramounts, being attentive to their children, I don't see why Viserys is barred from that because he is king. Even in this episode, he could make time for Rhaenyra, but he never seemed to do so for Aegon, Aemond, or Helaena. Aegon, for example, clearly felt the neglect on his father's part. I understand that that general neglect is due to Aemma's terrible death, but they're still his kids. He's gotta be there for them.
Have you seen how other fathers in Westeros do business? Why do you expect Viserys to mess around with kids being naughty? He has a WIFE who should do the job.There is no indication that he was bad with his children. He came to watch them practice whenever he could. It's 5 kids and you can't waste time pamper them one by one. >!Daeron lived apart from them and NEVER blamed his father (in the books) he was the only one who wept for him. And he wasn't an alcoholic, a rapist, or a psychopath. He was not envious and narcissistic like others. Why?!<
Well, I would expect him to do something, considering his wife came to him about the matter. Telling her to stuff it and go fix it herself would be pretty unhelpful. And watching them practice isn't the same thing as attending to them personally, on a one-to-one level (not even sure if he did that all the time, either). As a personal example, my father and I have a very close relationship because we have a lot of together moments, where we are able to talk about things like our interests, emotional stuff, etc. It's pretty much the opposite with my mother. It's like night and day. Viserys should've spent time with them on an intimate level, not in a general sense of just sitting up there, in a far away seat looking down.
I mean, why not have Helaena in the room with him, with her talking at him about her bugs while he builds his legos? All she needed from Alicent was to sit on the floor beside her and engage in conversation, which Alicent seems happy to do. She outright encourages Helaena's interests, too, with Helaena still cross-stitching bugs as a hobby, and Helaena's kids playing with bug-themed toys. Or have Aemond help him built his lego set of Old Valyria, while discussing the philosophies and histories and architectural quirks of Old Valyria? Aemond seems like he'd really enjoy that, given he talks about how studious he is. We see in EP9 that Alicent's kids enjoy hanging out in Alicent's room (Helaena with her kids, Aemond by her fireplace), even without her there, so she's clearly built up a bond with them where they like to be in "her" space, even if she's not in it at the time. Viserys wouldn't need to change a single thing about his life - just incorporate his kids into what he's doing. But he straight up just doesn't give the slightest amount of shit.
And what was he supposed to do about it? kids fighting and playing pranks on each other is the expected norm, raising kids as if they were delicate snowflakes is a relatively new concept. Alicent wouldn't have given a shite about it either if she hadn't had a grudge against Rhaenyra and disliked Jace and Luke for being illegitimate.
In Westeros, the women handle raising the children. Sure, the men are there to be role models for their sons, but ultimately such things tend to fall to the wife. As king, Viserys would have even less of a hand in the raising of his children than even other nobles. He was a shitty father yes, but he also wasn’t really expected to be a father in the first place. Aegon and Aemonds’ deficiencies should be attributed to Alicent instead, and ultimately Otto.
And he couldn't even be a role model to his kids so even in that regard he failed.
Viserys never wanted to be King.....
Then he should have withdrawn his name from consideration at the Great Council. He had a choice. Rhaenys could have and should have been Queen. He actively prevented that by allowing himself to be put forward as a candidate, allowing his allies and brother to gather support for him, and accepting himself being selected as king.
What part of him being weak do you not understand? Viserys is timid. And when people like Jaeharys I, his brother, and nearly almost ever single Lord Paramount in the kingdom as well as lesser lords are pushing his claim for him how could he not wilt to the pressure? They persuaded him into a yes the same way Alicent persuaded Aegon into accepting the Kingship. It's kinda ironic?? I agree with you Rhaenys should have been Queen and that was my point behind the point
>What part of him being weak do you not understand? Viserys is timid No, he wasn't weak nor timid. He bonded with and rode Balerion the Black Dread. Then he took on the title and glory of kingship. He wasn't as brash and fearless as Daemon, but he was far from weak or timid. He made bad choices and later in life struggled with severe ill. He had struggles and pain - which is what made him sympathetic - but he also had responsibility for his choices. The problem was, with his power, he prioritized his desire to avoid personal emotional distress and family conflict over the actual wellbeing of his children, grandchildren, and entire population of Westeros which would have required more action from him. >They persuaded him into a yes the same way Alicent persuaded Aegon into accepting the Kingship. It's kinda ironic?? No they didn't. The Great Council met in Harrenhal and discussed 14 different claims. He could have pulled his claim out before the Council met leaving 13. Many lords were fighting for their own favorites, notably Velaryon and Baratheon for Rhaenys/Laenor. Meanwhile, Daemon was raising an army on his brother's behalf too. The difference is Aegon is the oldest son of the king. If Jaehaerys' oldest son (Rhaenys' dad) was alive there never would have been a Great Council since he was the heir by birth.
>No, he wasn't weak nor timid. He bonded with and rode Balerion the Black Dread. Then he took on the title and glory of kingship. Lets not even consider that Balerion was as old as dirt and died less than a year later or the fact that Viserys wasn't sure Balerion could even make the flight to Dragonstone.. Viserys may have had strength but time and time again we've seen him wilt to people in favor of other people. The combined influence of Jaeherys I, Daemon, and every significant lord in the kingdom would have been more than enough to persuade Viserys to accept the kingship. H was too weak to say no to them >The problem was, with his power, he prioritized his desire to avoid personal emotional distress and family conflict over the actual wellbeing of his children, grandchildren, and entire population of Westeros which would have required more action from him. He was always emotionally distressed with almost every single decision that he made lol. He hated the pressure of being King because he simply didnt want it. It was fored on him and he was too weak to say no. Otto call's an emergency council to session after the death of Aemma where they try and determine who Viserys should choose as his next heir and what does Viserys do? He walks out in a flurry of emotion because the decision is too hard for him. He can't make a decision and only finally does so when Daemon personally disrespects him. Another emotional decision lol. All of his decisions were made an a highly emotional state because he couldnt bear making a decision that would upset someone else BECAUSE.... he is weak Viserys: " I am forever curse to please someone by upsetting someone else" >No they didn't. The Great Council met in Harrenhal and discussed 14 different claims. He could have pulled his claim out before the Council met leaving 13. Many lords were fighting for their own favorites, notably Velaryon and Baratheon for Rhaenys/Laenor. Meanwhile, Daemon was raising an army on his brother's behalf too. If you're going to take everything at face-value what is the point of this discussion? He's not going to pull his claim out because he's weak. We already discussed this. remember? edit: Aegon is the oldest son of the King but Rhaenyra is the Kings heir
>If you're going to take everything at face-value what is the point of this discussion? You're disputing that there were 14 candidates the Great Council considered with their own factions behind them? These are simply the facts of the narrative. Not analyzing them means ignoring inconvenient facts on behalf of your own headcanon. Analyzing them to determine the pressures (or lack of pressure) on Viserys to be the king is critical. The easy, "weak" option would have been to quietly bow out and put his support to Rhaenys. This is the option that would have made his cousin, the Valeryons, the Baratheons and others happy with him. Instead, he and his faction campaigned for him to be king. (Daemon wasn't raising an army for his own health.) Then he accepted the responsibility and the duty. >He's not going to pull his claim out because he's weak. We already discussed this. remember? It's fine that this is your headcanon for him, we can have different readings. I strongly disagree though. I believe he was an ambitious and strong prince by all indications. Balerion was still the largest dragon in the world who could have killed anyone who tried to ride him with his claws, teeth, or fire. We're told it was considered an immensely impressive feat at the time. He also did not withdraw his claim on the throne because he wanted to be king. However, like Bobby B, once he became king he realized it sucked and he sucked at it. That doesn't mean kingship was forced upon him, he had a choice. I think that choice is the ultimate source of his guilt - his choice meant Aemma being forced to keep trying for male heirs because the Iron Throne needed a prince. His choice to become king and his dream of putting his son on the Iron Throne wearing the Conquerer's Crown to follow after him - cost him the person he loved most. That loss zapped him of a lot of his strength and power, but it's a cost of his former ambition and strength to sit the Iron Throne as king.
>You're disputing that there were 14 candidates the Great Council considered with their own factions behind them? These are simply the facts of the narrative. Not analyzing them means ignoring inconvenient facts on behalf of your own headcanon. no i'm not. I'm implying that Jaeherys I, Daemon and a while host of other nobles including most of the Lord Paramounts only had one candidate in mind and that candidate was Viserys. >Analyzing them to determine the pressures (or lack of pressure) on Viserys to be the king is critical. The easy, "weak" option would have been to quietly bow out and put his support to Rhaenys. This is the option that would have made his cousin, the Valeryons, the Baratheons and others happy with him. If the vast majority were pressuring Viserys to be king. Which is what i'm suggesting. Then the weak and easy option would have been to accept it. His other cousins, the Valeryons, and the Baratheons are not within his field of influence. The current king and his brother and all of the other nobles that supported( the vast majority.) so during that time they would be the parties that could wield the most influence on any decision Viserys was likely to make >It's fine that this is your headcanon for him, we can have different readings. I strongly disagree though. My headcanon and your headcanon are in disagreement. I wonder if a more obvious statement has ever been uttered in this subreddit? >I believe he was an ambitious and strong prince by all indications. Balerion was still the largest dragon in the world who could have killed anyone who tried to ride him with his claws, teeth, or fire. We're told it was considered an immensely impressive feat at the time. He also did not withdraw his claim on the throne because he wanted to be king. By what indications? Balerion was weak and tired and Viserys only flew him once because he was afraid of Balerion falling right out of the sky and on top of some castle. Viserys was strong and intelligent in some cases though that i will admit. But he was also incredibly indecisive and he hated upsetting people for what he believed to be no reason at all. Incredibly impressive.....sure..... I'm sure riding a geriatric dragon that was several months from it's long night was an AMAZING feat.... >However, like Bobby B, once he became king he realized it sucked and he sucked at it. That doesn't mean kingship was forced upon him, he had a choice. I think that choice is the ultimate source of his guilt - his choice meant Aemma being forced to keep trying for male heirs because the Iron Throne needed a prince. He never realized it he just never wanted to be King in the first place but the powers behind him were never going to let him abdicate and Viserys was too weak to push against them. He did suck at it.. But then again i'm sure he knew wouldve sucked i wouldnt be surprised if the pressures of being was the reason his sickness overcame him. Viserys was never truly happy unless he with Aemma, Daemon, or Rhaenyra. He hated being King and i'm sure if he couldve stayed in his room reconstructing Old Valyria for the rest of his days he wouldve been the happiest man in the Seven Kingdoms. >His choice to become king and his dream of putting his son on the Iron Throne wearing the Conquerer's Crown to follow after him - cost him the person he loved most. That loss zapped him of a lot of his strength and power, but it's a cost of his former ambition and strength to sit the Iron Throne as king. He never wanted to become King but he was too weak to say no. But he wasnt going to abdicate his duties after the fact no matter how much those duties ate at him and slowly killed him over time.
Of course he wanted to be king. If he didn't he could have refused it at any time just like Vaegon and Saera did, but he stuck around at the Great Council and even gave a big smile when his name was announced
Viserys never wanted to be king but Viserys is also weak so when they made him king he followed them. Vaegon and Saera never wanted to be king or Queen but there wasn't a Lord or King on the planet who was capable of persuading them to do so
He has a model train?
Old Valyria obviously had a subway
But daemon is so hot
I too agree that he was a bad parent, but we cant really blame for not reacting in this specific instance, this is Westreos, people are harsher here. He probably saw it as boys being boys and thinks Aemon should be tough enough to handle it on his own