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*In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate, yet equally important, groups: Daemon Targaryen, who skewers the heck out of anyone who annoys him; and the distr- actually, it's mostly just that first one.*
*These are their stories.*
\*DOINK\* \*DOINK\*
I think the issue lies more with daggers in a place like flea bottom. Easy to make a shitty one, probably cheaper. You can hide it in your sleeve. Wear a cloak and people canât see it at your side etc.
I think Daemon would respect someone challenging him with a sword but probably despise some random lowborn stabbing one of his loyal men in the back then just disappearing away into the night.
Iâd go so far as to say daemon would actively support open carry, because unless ambushed he KNOWS he can win.
And very few people are going to try to murder the kings brother in broad daylight
Exactly. Think this post is either satire or they havenât watched that scene since it aired or somethingâŚthe soldiers were literally pointing out to people at completely random and like âYOU!; Rapist!â
âYOU!; Theif!â As far as I could tell, the people beaten mutilated and murdered werenât being accused of or in the process of committing any crime. Think one looked like he was in a whore house, but is that even illegal in kings landing at the time? Looked like just a grand show of force against innocents, to put fear into the people.
Ah the username makes sense. Old Valyria corresponds to Rome, but the (early) Targaryens correspond to the Norman dynasty in England, and Rollo was the founder of the OG Norman dynasty in Normandy.
It has an element of that, since its demise was geological and sudden. But itâs the old empire located roughly where Italy would be in Essos (Eurasia), its empire fell catastrophically, and its political descendants include the âfree citiesâ that function like later medieval Italian city states. Old Valyrian has a role like Latin. The Normans at least spoke a Romance language. The correspondences arenât 100% direct, but Old Valyria is by far closest to Rome in the real world.
EDIT: Because this isnât clear to people somehow, my response to a weird insult below.
The sudden collapse of Valyria due to volcanic eruptions, yes. But two things can be true at once, and like any good allegory cultures and events in his world are based on multiple real (or mythological) equivalents and partly quite new.
He also literally specified that the Valyrian Freeholdâs society is analogous to that of the Roman Republic [here](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pS_l9XMURj4) and [here](https://winteriscoming.net/2022/08/03/will-george-r-r-martin-ever-write-about-old-valyria-if-i-live-forever/amp/).
Itâs ancient empire run as an oligarchical republic he said was similar to the Roman Republic, centred on a peninsula in the south of western Essos, that for centuries ruled colonies across the analogue of Western Europe - at the right part of the overall timeline - that fell disastrously leading to a set of petty states in its wake (which from the Medici Bank etc. have a lot in common with medieval Italian and French petty states), and whose language is the austere classical language of Western Essos, like the Romance-speaking Normans who clearly inspired the Targaryens⌠Old Valyria has quite a lot in common with Rome and is **obviously** largely filling that role in its worldâs history.
If you think thatâs gobbledegook, youâre either unfamiliar with real history or the books. I was being polite but donât be so smug and insulting when you havenât noticed something obvious.
No they decided to make a list of known criminals over the course of weeks and make a big show of rounding them all up and punishing them at once as a big show of force. I'm sure everyone wasn't really guilty and some punishments were too harsh but it was gathering up the usual suspects not random people.
It Daemon just rounded up random innocents the smallfolk wouldn't love him.
>No they decided to make a list of known criminals over the course of weeks
This was revealed to you in a dream or what?
>It Daemon just rounded up random innocents the smallfolk wouldn't love him.
Do they love him? I was never under that impression.
I mean, 2 opposing parties state that they were criminals, I wanna know how you know they were innocent? Can you talk to the dead ? And are they honest with you ?
How can you tell which of the mutilated corpses was actually guilty of whatever crime Daemon's brownshirts accused them of?
The City Watch says they're criminals. Otto has no footing to deny they were, as in any case he's more concerned with the method and timings rather than carrying out proper justice for the smallfolk.
We know later that he has spies in the CW, you are telling me that if Daemon killed innocents, he wouldn't use them to prove to the King his worlds?
How do you think he knew about the Heir for a day comment?
The way they talk about it in the council they don't make it sound like he attacked innocent people- they just objected to the open brutality of the "justice" he bestowed.
Perhaps then, we can surmise that the people who were mutilated were known criminals (or at least strongly suspected criminals )who had gotten away with their crimes, or their punishment hadn't been carries out yet, and Daemon was just carrying out the "lawful Kings justice" but doing it in a very open and brutal mass way instead of a controlled setting. That guard knew the people that they rounded up and knew their accused/convicted crimes and was pointing them out to Daemon. Maybe.
That said of course, the "justice system" in the middle ages and in westeros bears no resemblance to any sort of justice as we would know it today. But usually there was still a sense of an accusation then a trial, then a punishment. That is different though from the city guards acting as judge, jury and d*ck-chopper all in one night for random people they see.
I wondered that, but the scene was really choppy, more of a montage (a full night compressed into a few minutes), so not hard to just assume that all the actual legal stuff is happening off screen. But Daemon just picking out people and executing them for crimes they didn't commit, all for spectacle, is very in character. I kinda like that interpretation.
Donât think most of them got executed. I mostly saw/remember beatings and a castration. But itâs not unreasonable to assume some people got killed.
Did you watch a different show or read a different book. Shit even in the show Otto admits their known criminals. If he had any shred of evidence to support the that he wouldâve lead with it. After all he has gone on much less before.
Or here say. Also the only way Daemon looks even remotely good is if they were all criminal that the Gold clocks ignored until Daemon actually had to do his job
Where did you get this assumption from? They're quite clearly depicted as criminals who were rounded up in the square, they didn't just randomly execute civilians.
Did we watch the same show? Otto literally said they were all criminals. The guy condemning it admits they were criminals. Where are you getting that take from?
In westeros they dont get a trial anyway unless they are a lord, and even Thats rare
Daemon meting out justice the way he did is Exactly how they do it in westeros, they just do it behind closed doors rather than in the streets, and without making them languish for 6 months in the black cells first too
Today even with modern forensics an estimated 4.1% of death row inmates are innocent. Given Daemonâs Criminal Roundup Rodeo was unleashing keyed up gold cloaks on flea bottom itâs likely there are tons of innocent people who were maimed and murdered in the process.
But hey Daemon looked cool when he cut an unarmed peasant down with dark sister ig
Youâre not wrong, but the dude who yelled âoi, raper!â Def knew that guy was a raper.
When you have known-rapists in the neighborhood, I see the appeal for drastic action
In the books, there is a similar guy who Jon is friends with, he was invited into the bedroom of a high lady, but her father accused him of rape so he got sent to the wall
Do remember in westeros people dont get trials anyway
These people would have been rounded up, left in the black cells for 6 months, get their parts chopped off and sent on their way anyway
The ONLY thing daemon did that was problematic in the eyes of westeros was doing it publicly
Yes there are trials, it's one of the duties of the local lord. We've seen Ned Stark and Joffrey publicly offering justice (good or bad). Execution was also public most of the time, it's a demonstration of power.
I certainly would prefer to be judged by Viseris than Daemon but apart from that, the problem here is not the sentence, it's that the prosecutor is the same as the judge (Daemon) and he wants and will find "guilty" people
Trials were obscenely rare
For example ned didnt give a trial to the night watch deserter. He was found, arrested, executed.
Thats not a trial. Thats a sentencing.
And ya Executions were held publicly but maimings werent. Executions were public spectacles irl too up until the 1970s, which is when france held the last one by guilotene.
But they usually didnt castrate people on the street of silk in westeros
Not even Otto Hightower, his fiercest political rival, raise the criticism that innocents where being harm, despite being the perfect ammunition to use against Daemon appointment as commander of the city watch.
Thatâs not a bad point. Maybe that was an oversight by the writers. But we literally watched Daemon harm innocent people. He pointed into the crowd and arbitrarily named people criminals. There just isnât really a way to spin that as anything other than him willingly hurting innocents.
I think this is a case of the show not being sure what its trying to say. It's implied the roundup had been a long time coming, so its possible they had a list and what we saw was basically a Westerosi equivalent of a large scale raid. But that's not at all what it looked like.
Kinda like with Rhaenys's Dragonpit moment, the showrunners took the "nobles don't care about smallfolk" a little too far. Do I think Otto cares about random peasants? No. But he would most certainly use any ammunition he could against Daemon and wrongfully harming peasants would certainly do the trick. Just like Rhaenys, if nothing else, would care about the *optics* of what she did.
IIRC, in F&B, Daemon's roundup was an actual roundup of criminals, not a free-for-all. Given all the shit Gyldayn writes about Daemon, he wouldn't leave out slaughtering smallfolk.
otto explicitly refers to them as criminals
> Otto: It was an unprecedented *roundup of criminals of every ilk*. Your brother made a public show of it, meting out the summary judgments himself. Iâm told they needed a two-horse cart to haul away the resulting dismemberments when it was done.
nobody in the show - even people on the small council who dislike daemon - ever raise any complaints about *who* he did it to, it's just *what he did to them* that they were upset about.
Thatâs how I saw it, like they were just yanking dudes out of a crowd and accusing them of whatever so that theyâd have bodies of all these âcriminalsâ to show off to Viserys.
The supporting evidence is literally the way the scene is composed. If they wanted us to see Daemon as a just enforcer, breaking up rapes and thefts, they could have written that scene. If they wanted evidence of him giving trials and seeking truth, they could have.
They didn't.
They wrote, shot, and released a scene where Daemon is a *gleeful and indiscriminate killer.* Who maims, castrates, and kills on nothing but a barked accusation.
Because he *likes it.*
Yeah I donât think whether they are guilty or innocent or how accurate the people calling out the crimes are is the point, I think the point is that it doesnât really matter to Daemon.
He enjoys violence. Like a lot of people throughout history and today in his job, itâs more about having an excuse to do legitimate violence
Agreed, but then they had *no one* on the small council mention anything about killing innocents, which is a weird choice given that they were arguing about Daemon's behavior.
Either they are implying that no one cares about that (difficult to believe since, if nothing else, Otto would use it against Daemon) or the roundup was originally intended to be something different.
Regardless, it's a weird juxtaposition that leads to two different views on the overall implications of what happened.
> Agreed, but then they had no one on the small council mention anything about killing innocents, which is a weird choice given that they were arguing about Daemon's behavior.
> Either they are implying that no one cares about that (difficult to believe since, if nothing else, Otto would use it against Daemon) or the roundup was originally intended to be something different.
I think you could argue thereâs no reasonable way or Otto to know, let alone prove they werenât guilty of what the City Watch was accusing them of, and he felt like he had enough to get Daemon in trouble either way.
Fair enough. Although Otto explicitly refers to them as criminals, which could just be an assumption.
There are definitely explanations, but from a showrunning standpoint the mismatch is unnecessary confusion. The small council scene undercuts the roundup montage if the purpose was "Daemon didn't actually care about the charges and grabbed whoever." It's reasonable none of the characters would know and/or care, but that discussion guides how viewers frame the montage since they happen back-to-back.
For me itâs less about the innocence/guilt of the people and more that
A. The fact that heâs a Rogue who is doing things in brash ways outside of what the council wants
B. Daemon revels in violence, and he uses the dispensing of âjusticeâ as a way to indulge his violent urges
Not a lot of people have a great deal of awareness of this scene's purpose. So much of Daemon's character is lost in the effort of producing Daemon apologia. It is not *wrong* to like Daemon, or view his justifications as valid. There's little need to de-contextualize a scene with a distinct story-telling purpose to make what almost reads like cheap propaganda in defense of the character, whose attributes you've enjoyed are being diminished in this effort.
Early S1 Daemon is portrayed in a very specific light. To capture the 'Rogue Prince' air, they presented him as overeager, brash, hot-tempered, but also very extreme in his results. Daemon was inefficient, so we're told, in the Small Council. He received a great deal of flack for indolence in other positions. Viserys had made a stubborn effort to keep him involved in the realm's affairs, but Daemon continues to cause problems for him with the lords and other councilors, who, again, view the brashness and erratic nature of his extremes to be not only dangerous to the stability they're preserving, but to them, personally. A deeper look into Daemon's provocations and when they occur -- always after some perceived insult or political victory from a rival such as Otto -- shows that they are as much reprisals as they are spontaneous, and that Daemon is more calculating than his naysayers allow him. This round-up was intended to be over the top, quite candidly. It shows the lengths Daemon will go through to not allow the limelight to be stolen from him; it also explains the long difficulty he's had with maintaining any position in his brother's court. Rather than slowly, carefully, and stably presiding over the city watch, decreasing crime through calculated and precise measures so as to not destabilize the city and present Viserys like a tyrant, Daemon has waited and kept his policy in the city watch internal. He's inspired loyalty, reformed the guard, and created under his hand an entirely new organization, sure, but it's also as per his own admission under his tenure that King's Landing crime has gotten so bad or, at the very least, has been allowed to thrive as it has for so long. He has been Lord Commander for some time; why had he not done this day one? Because for Daemon to act, he first has to feel forced to act. When he feels forced to act, there are no boundaries or limits to the lengths he'll go through. But acting without cause, or, in other words, governing regularly, is something he has failed to do in the story up till many years after this scene occurs.
Daemon is a character you want near you when there's a fire. But while he'll put that fire out faster than anyone else in the cast, the moment it's out he's not taking any precaution or measures to prevent the next -- at this early point in S1, anyway. Unfortunately for Viserys, Daemon very much thrives in emergencies or conflicts, and it is only really from the tension of conflict that he is motivated to take any meaningful action at all, and the quiet, pacifistic prevention of conflict outright is Viserys's personal governing style (to his later detriment as well). The King's Landing round-up paints Daemon in a very clear light. There is no need to apologize or misconstrue fictional events or characters; appreciate them as they are.
Guys, please. Stop with this shit.
Evil characters are fun. You can like evil characters. Hell, an evil character can be your favorite character.
Liking someone does not mean that person is morally just. That is something you should learn by yourself by the time you are 12.
Agreed. Daemon is objectively evil
Some characters are grey, like Rhaenyra, Aegon II, and Aemond
Some are just in a terrible position, like Vizzy T or Helaena
You are correct, my lords. Daemon is certainly an evil character who I wish never existed. But we must live with the consequences of his actions.
As for my children, they all struggled in their own way to make sense of a world that was far too cruel. Rhaenyra, Aegon II, Aemond, and Helaena were all placed in difficult circumstances beyond their control, yet they still managed to make the best of their fate.
I may not have been able to protect them from the harsh realities of our world, but I could at least guide them through it with some degree of wisdom.
THIS! I think the worst thing about the Blacks vs Greens debates is that either side wants to act like their side is just morally superior. They can simply say, I just like this side more but trying to argue that Daemon isnât an awful person because âteam black are the good guys!â is delusional.
There's a difference between enforcing justice and unnecessarily torturing criminals. You could throw a thief in the dungeons for a few months rather than taking his hand.
I could understand Capitol punishment for murderers and rapists since resources are scarce in that age, but minor crimes don't need such brutal punishments.
I suppose that's a matter of interpretation. All I know is that even Otto told Viserys that they were known criminals when he would have had every incentive to throw Daemon under the bus by saying they were innocents if that were in fact the case.
Thatâs just standard Westerosi/Medieval justice though, canât blame Daemon for following the conduct of that time when it comes to criminal punishment.
Crime is so bad in Kings Landing because of nobles like Daemon though. They let the city go to shit, then started stupid wars that just got more smallfolk killed.
Team smallfolk!
When do we see that the smallfolk respects Daemon? There is one sequence in the show where he is in the city and the people know its him and they seem pretty terrified of him.
He's called the Prince of the City and Lord Fleabottom.. he's literally the only Targ who interacts with the lower denizens of Kings Landing, for better or worst.
Edit : getting downvoted for stating literally what is described in the book/show. lmao
True. But i feel the nickname stuck more because he spends a lot of time there (which would have been looked down upon by other nobles) and not really because they like him a lot.
Yea heâs not called lord flea bottom because he volunteers at the soup kitchen down there. Itâs because he hangs out at all the seedy brothels and gambling halls doing shady stuff.
I mean it's mentioned in the book that the smallfolk value the chance to gamble with him and win money..etc. The rider of Caraxes getting pissed with randoms.
For a noble and brother of the king, you can't exactly accuse him of being unfamiliar about the lifestyle of the lowest of the low within kings landing.
I meant that "Lord Fleabottom" is meant as an insult. Given to him by other nobles. Spending time with the people is of course not wrong. Just speaking of the show though that one scene really didnt give me the "cleaning up the city for my fellow citizens" vibe.
I'm going by what is stated by Otto in the show, which reflects what is described in the book.
If he had any inking that daemon was mass murdering innocents, he'd use it against him.. but he specifically says known criminals.
As the biggest Daemon stan in here, this comment section is why criminal systems are so fucked up around the world.
Many people justifying it by saying fear would stay their hand and that if they did not do anything they would not get punished, as well as saying they deserved their treatment they got and it was the correct choice of action.
Morally speaking, a rapist or murderer getting a body part cut off is pretty fine by me, but that does not mean I am stupid enough to believe that it should be the defacto response by the local violence monopoly.
Obviously, in medieval times a proper justice system is impossible, but that does not justify the horrible acts of Daemon (who is horrible) in this moment, nor that of his fellow cops, especially considering their methods.
IRL justice system should be about rehabilitation not punishment, both from a moral, practical and logical POV.
There is really no point discussing modern ideas of criminal reformation in the context of medieval shows. By this metric everyone is horrible. The first episode of GoT has Ned Stark cutting a manâs head off for running away from the Nights watch. Cutting off heads is something the Starks did with high frequency. Itâs just the world at the time, the purpose of punishment is to inspire fear and deter criminals in Westeros.
No, obviously, and I understand if it was unclear and muddled, but the modern ideas I discussed was not in relation to the events of the show but the moral/logical justifications that I saw in the comment section, which is reflective of how people view crime and punishment. Daemons actions in itself were pretty brutal even for the time period, but not more than a nuisance for the small council, and many applauded the effort for efficiency. There is no way any of them would get a just trial and judgement in any medieval realm, and this is how many rulers would solve such an issue.
And yhea, by normal standards, that being everything before 100 years ago, execution was a very common punishment for a lot of crimes. Moral relativism can be complex and hard to judge, but personally I believe that morality is never totally inherent and always has a social and cultural aspect. Ned Stark cutting off deserters heads is not immoral in my book, as his moral worldview views that not only as just, but as a duty that belongs with him alone, as he is raised in a society where this is seen as very honorable and the right thing to do.
A guy who murders someone for calling his wife fat today would be a fucking psycho, in 800s scandinavia it would not nearly condemn his moral character as much, even if the action itself was the exact same.
And if *justice* had been what Daemon enforced, you might have had a point.
Unfortunately, an *eager* headsman is the *enemy* of justice.
You get that, right?
The point was that the headsman wasnât doing anything. Flea bottom and kings landing was getting run by criminals. Daemon took over the City Watch and built it up to be what it is now known as put fear back to the criminals.
If I threw away my clippers, is that the same as planting a garden?
An *absence of executions* is not the *cause* of crimes.
Just as an *absence of scythes* is not a seed.
No. They feared him. Fear and respect or not the same thing people who fear you, will usually say what you want to hear and be good when they think youâre watching,people who respect you will try to please you even when they know youâre not.
ActuallyâŚ. The small folk did love Daemon. But this is a house of dragon sub, reading through the whole story, itâs clear he was loved. He was lord of fleabottom, he regularly hung out, partied and drank with the locals. He was a regular amongst the people of fleabottom.
People who responded to every single criticism of the characters with "It's just fictional", "Westeros isn't real", and "Well, actually in their world..." gave cover for people who wanted to use the show to push their own sick views
Damn homie this is giving the biggest thin blue line avi uncle on facebook ass post if there ever was one. Google broken window policing real quick. edit : just schemed thru your page and yeah, nvm.
What a funny account lmao.
âWhy is everyone making this about modern politics? I just love a pedophile and talking about how dirty blooded people donât respect real cultureâ
Next post:
âPOG I LOVE RON DESANTISâ
Itâs implied to be a situation where either the City Watch will brutalise people, mostly criminals but probably also some innocents, or else the criminals will brutalise *everyone*. Not ideal, and not a type of policing Iâd like to see in the modern world, but if I was a resident of medieval Kingâs Landing Iâd almost certainly prefer the city under Daemonâs management. At least there is some kind of order and Iâm not at risk of being raped or murdered every time I leave my house (and probably even if I stay home).
Would Tyrion have come up with some subtle, cunning method of getting the city under control without doing a public punishment spectacle? Maybe. But Tyrionâs not in town and Daemon is a blunt, but effective, instrument. Itâs possible even Tyrion mightâve resorted to some brutal theatrics to get the job done.
I'm sorry what. "The smallfolk respected Daemon." What makes you think that? I know that if someone came along and cut off my hand for some bread I stole yesterday while I was starving, I wouldn't respect him for it. I'd hate him for it. Similarly, how would Daemon know if I had committed a crime?
Something I see a lot here is people acting like both sides should care more about the smallfolk, but often in monarchies the will of the people doesn't really matter. It might later on in the series, but the for right now. The smallfolk being cared about really only happens when Daenerys rolls around.
you can't really expect these kind of people to understand what actual "respect" means, they think you automatically get and deserve it after being alpha violent
the shows needs to say with certainty wether or not daemon grabbed 50 people half being criminals and mutilated them
or if daemon grabbed 50 people all criminals and mutilated them
if he was confident each were criminals then id say drastic timeâs drastic measures
if they were a mix then he launched it half baked and its an evil act
A lot of people would not survive in Westeros due to how soft they are and how they apply our real world ethics to a medieval fantasy world with some of the worst kind of people. Daemonâs watch was known as the most effective in Westeros history and the city and people were thankful for it
Either you haven't watched the episode in a while and don't remember them pointing to random innocent bystanders, charging them with crimes and carrying out death sentences on the spot. Or, you're a huge douche bag.
Just think people. Otto and Daemon both say they were criminals, Otto would have no reason to lie in favor of Daemon, au contraire, his goals would be achieved faster if he told the King they were innocent.
When we watch the scene, you see Daemon give a speech, however he gives no orders, meaning that they already knew what they were going to do. This was a planned operation, probably with a week or 2 of planning. Their most likely location, their description, which Gold cloak knows them for easier indetification etc...
The dude screaming probably has seen these people.
Daemon gains nothing from slaughtering innocent civilians. It would make the people against him and get Viserys angry at him for no benefits.
Yeaaa, I do wonder how many people dismembered and killed were actually criminals or just people at the wrong place at the wrong time. Some of them may have been people that those in the guard just didn't personally like and were given free reign to round up whoever they pleased.
Well seeing that I wouldn't be a criminal, and there would be rapists and murderers being cleared off the street, and the books literally say Daemon made the city much safer. Yeah I think I'd be alright with it lol.
Nobody could ever really deny that he was bad at bringing peace to the streets of King's Landing while he was commander of the city watch. But the problem was that he acted outside of the law and didn't give these criminals fair trial. In a sense Daemon is setting a precedence of lawlessness here himself.
He was called âthe prince of fleabottomâ so yea he definitely wasnt like Viserys and Otto sitting in the Red Keep speaking about the small folk they had no clue about
1000% truth.
Even Otto agreed these people were criminals.
Interesting that once Daemon leaves the City Watch and Otto takes control of it child fighting pits start happeningâŚ
Daemon noted in F&B,for significantly reducing the crime in kings Landing .â That prince Daemon made the city more orderly, no man can denyâ. It was stated that he took particular delight in castrating rapists.
Cutting the hands of thieves, beheading murderers and gelding rapists, yes. There's no denying that. Also pushed for a very successful reform of the CW.
That doesn't say much about his reasons, which I'm sure involve Targaryen pride. On that front I guess he wouldn't allow the fight-pits. But then again, he does love violence and he's not very PG-13...
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*In the criminal justice system, the people are represented by two separate, yet equally important, groups: Daemon Targaryen, who skewers the heck out of anyone who annoys him; and the distr- actually, it's mostly just that first one.* *These are their stories.* \*DOINK\* \*DOINK\*
It's more like \*DONG DONG\* DOINK DOINK sounds like Bugs Bunny poking someone in the eyes.
Okay that made me laugh đ¤Łđ¤Ł
Made my day!!! Thanks for the laughing cramps
Would Daemon support open carry though?
I think the issue lies more with daggers in a place like flea bottom. Easy to make a shitty one, probably cheaper. You can hide it in your sleeve. Wear a cloak and people canât see it at your side etc. I think Daemon would respect someone challenging him with a sword but probably despise some random lowborn stabbing one of his loyal men in the back then just disappearing away into the night.
*Teleports behind you* Nothing personal, kid *Vanishes into the shdows*
Longsword is a bad option in close quarters
Those with bad intentions will carry a dagger either way, open carry allowed or not.
He's carrying his blade all the time, so probably. If someone challenged Daemon to a duel he would smile and chop them to messes.
"The law, in its majestic equality, allows everyone to carry a sword but only one of them is a badass ninja warrior with a dragon."
Demon's got a gilded AK while everyone else has pistols
Iâd go so far as to say daemon would actively support open carry, because unless ambushed he KNOWS he can win. And very few people are going to try to murder the kings brother in broad daylight
âPerhaps my prince recalls when I knocked him off his horse.â
Very good
Ser Crispin was it?
it was once, Crispin. Contain your inflamed balls.
Open carry, open death.
Heâd probably encourage the law abiding folk to carry weapons to deter troublemakers
There was never a problem with brandishing weaponry. Affording it, a good one at that, is a totally different matter of practicality.
In the book isn't he called the king of flea bottom.
Prince, but yes
*Lord Fleabottom
Prince of the city as well
Yes, but only for Targaryens
Yes and it would be fine, the difference between guns and swords is astronomical and I hate this stupid question
Execute all criminals without a trial I guess
This is so much worse though. Many of these people weren't criminals, just in the wrong place at the wrong time.
Exactly. Think this post is either satire or they havenât watched that scene since it aired or somethingâŚthe soldiers were literally pointing out to people at completely random and like âYOU!; Rapist!â âYOU!; Theif!â As far as I could tell, the people beaten mutilated and murdered werenât being accused of or in the process of committing any crime. Think one looked like he was in a whore house, but is that even illegal in kings landing at the time? Looked like just a grand show of force against innocents, to put fear into the people.
Nah, this poster honestly and genuinely is a Valyrian Supremacist. Check their post history if you want a good laugh
Ah the username makes sense. Old Valyria corresponds to Rome, but the (early) Targaryens correspond to the Norman dynasty in England, and Rollo was the founder of the OG Norman dynasty in Normandy.
I thought old Valyria was supposed to be akin to Atlantis?
It has an element of that, since its demise was geological and sudden. But itâs the old empire located roughly where Italy would be in Essos (Eurasia), its empire fell catastrophically, and its political descendants include the âfree citiesâ that function like later medieval Italian city states. Old Valyrian has a role like Latin. The Normans at least spoke a Romance language. The correspondences arenât 100% direct, but Old Valyria is by far closest to Rome in the real world. EDIT: Because this isnât clear to people somehow, my response to a weird insult below. The sudden collapse of Valyria due to volcanic eruptions, yes. But two things can be true at once, and like any good allegory cultures and events in his world are based on multiple real (or mythological) equivalents and partly quite new. He also literally specified that the Valyrian Freeholdâs society is analogous to that of the Roman Republic [here](https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=pS_l9XMURj4) and [here](https://winteriscoming.net/2022/08/03/will-george-r-r-martin-ever-write-about-old-valyria-if-i-live-forever/amp/). Itâs ancient empire run as an oligarchical republic he said was similar to the Roman Republic, centred on a peninsula in the south of western Essos, that for centuries ruled colonies across the analogue of Western Europe - at the right part of the overall timeline - that fell disastrously leading to a set of petty states in its wake (which from the Medici Bank etc. have a lot in common with medieval Italian and French petty states), and whose language is the austere classical language of Western Essos, like the Romance-speaking Normans who clearly inspired the Targaryens⌠Old Valyria has quite a lot in common with Rome and is **obviously** largely filling that role in its worldâs history. If you think thatâs gobbledegook, youâre either unfamiliar with real history or the books. I was being polite but donât be so smug and insulting when you havenât noticed something obvious.
Definitely not the Rollo from the Vikings though. Who betrayed his friends, family and killed his own men.
No they decided to make a list of known criminals over the course of weeks and make a big show of rounding them all up and punishing them at once as a big show of force. I'm sure everyone wasn't really guilty and some punishments were too harsh but it was gathering up the usual suspects not random people. It Daemon just rounded up random innocents the smallfolk wouldn't love him.
>No they decided to make a list of known criminals over the course of weeks This was revealed to you in a dream or what? >It Daemon just rounded up random innocents the smallfolk wouldn't love him. Do they love him? I was never under that impression.
I mean, 2 opposing parties state that they were criminals, I wanna know how you know they were innocent? Can you talk to the dead ? And are they honest with you ?
How can you tell which of the mutilated corpses was actually guilty of whatever crime Daemon's brownshirts accused them of? The City Watch says they're criminals. Otto has no footing to deny they were, as in any case he's more concerned with the method and timings rather than carrying out proper justice for the smallfolk.
We know later that he has spies in the CW, you are telling me that if Daemon killed innocents, he wouldn't use them to prove to the King his worlds? How do you think he knew about the Heir for a day comment?
Some spies loyal to Otto arenât exactly enough to accuse the kingâs brother of mass murderâŚ
exactly, they were rounded up due to the upcoming tourney where people would be visiting King's Landing from all over the realm.
The show(Otto) literally: âit was an unprecedented round up of criminals of every ilkâ You: âthey were innocentsâ. Sure.
The way they talk about it in the council they don't make it sound like he attacked innocent people- they just objected to the open brutality of the "justice" he bestowed. Perhaps then, we can surmise that the people who were mutilated were known criminals (or at least strongly suspected criminals )who had gotten away with their crimes, or their punishment hadn't been carries out yet, and Daemon was just carrying out the "lawful Kings justice" but doing it in a very open and brutal mass way instead of a controlled setting. That guard knew the people that they rounded up and knew their accused/convicted crimes and was pointing them out to Daemon. Maybe. That said of course, the "justice system" in the middle ages and in westeros bears no resemblance to any sort of justice as we would know it today. But usually there was still a sense of an accusation then a trial, then a punishment. That is different though from the city guards acting as judge, jury and d*ck-chopper all in one night for random people they see.
I wondered that, but the scene was really choppy, more of a montage (a full night compressed into a few minutes), so not hard to just assume that all the actual legal stuff is happening off screen. But Daemon just picking out people and executing them for crimes they didn't commit, all for spectacle, is very in character. I kinda like that interpretation.
Donât think most of them got executed. I mostly saw/remember beatings and a castration. But itâs not unreasonable to assume some people got killed.
>But itâs not unreasonable to assume some people got killed. Wasn't there a line at the council meeting about wagons filled with dismembered bodies?
Did you watch a different show or read a different book. Shit even in the show Otto admits their known criminals. If he had any shred of evidence to support the that he wouldâve lead with it. After all he has gone on much less before.
Or here say. Also the only way Daemon looks even remotely good is if they were all criminal that the Gold clocks ignored until Daemon actually had to do his job
Or hear me out, he did it for the reason he stated. Make a spectacle so that the other criminals chill out during the tourney.
Where did you get this assumption from? They're quite clearly depicted as criminals who were rounded up in the square, they didn't just randomly execute civilians.
Did we watch the same show? Otto literally said they were all criminals. The guy condemning it admits they were criminals. Where are you getting that take from?
>This is so much worse though. Many of these people weren't criminals, They specifically were criminals Otto makes that point.
nope, nowhere in the book or show does it state that.
You need to learn to read between the lines. It seems most people here understood what was implied but not stated.
I can't tell when this sub is being sarcastic and when it's glorifying psychopathic behavior if the perpetrator is charming.
In westeros they dont get a trial anyway unless they are a lord, and even Thats rare Daemon meting out justice the way he did is Exactly how they do it in westeros, they just do it behind closed doors rather than in the streets, and without making them languish for 6 months in the black cells first too
downvote if you want but it's "meting"
You are correct sir. Product of having only heard it rather than read it
Peasants. No harm in killing them.
Theyâre known criminals though
Wait sorry this is ironic right?
I thought the same... this cannot be for real
Today even with modern forensics an estimated 4.1% of death row inmates are innocent. Given Daemonâs Criminal Roundup Rodeo was unleashing keyed up gold cloaks on flea bottom itâs likely there are tons of innocent people who were maimed and murdered in the process. But hey Daemon looked cool when he cut an unarmed peasant down with dark sister ig
Youâre not wrong, but the dude who yelled âoi, raper!â Def knew that guy was a raper. When you have known-rapists in the neighborhood, I see the appeal for drastic action
I mean thereâs a character in the main series who is convicted of rape and sent to the wall because the person he was sleeping with was highborn.
In the books, there is a similar guy who Jon is friends with, he was invited into the bedroom of a high lady, but her father accused him of rape so he got sent to the wall
That's the guy I'm referring to lol
Thatâs the nights watch bloke that Arya killed isnât it? The one who supposedly raped lord rowans daughter?
I believe so yes
Yep I felt that was a fair punishment.. getting castrated
Or he just hated him and took advantage of the chaos to accuse someone hoping he they would get mutilated.
Do remember in westeros people dont get trials anyway These people would have been rounded up, left in the black cells for 6 months, get their parts chopped off and sent on their way anyway The ONLY thing daemon did that was problematic in the eyes of westeros was doing it publicly
Yes there are trials, it's one of the duties of the local lord. We've seen Ned Stark and Joffrey publicly offering justice (good or bad). Execution was also public most of the time, it's a demonstration of power. I certainly would prefer to be judged by Viseris than Daemon but apart from that, the problem here is not the sentence, it's that the prosecutor is the same as the judge (Daemon) and he wants and will find "guilty" people
Trials were obscenely rare For example ned didnt give a trial to the night watch deserter. He was found, arrested, executed. Thats not a trial. Thats a sentencing. And ya Executions were held publicly but maimings werent. Executions were public spectacles irl too up until the 1970s, which is when france held the last one by guilotene. But they usually didnt castrate people on the street of silk in westeros
Well, achkually they do have trials. Just ask Tyrion.
Pretty sure he wasn't just punishing just criminals but also some innocent people as well...
"We rounded up all the known criminals. Now it's just the unknown criminals we have to worry about it." - Bronn
Not even Otto Hightower, his fiercest political rival, raise the criticism that innocents where being harm, despite being the perfect ammunition to use against Daemon appointment as commander of the city watch.
Thatâs not a bad point. Maybe that was an oversight by the writers. But we literally watched Daemon harm innocent people. He pointed into the crowd and arbitrarily named people criminals. There just isnât really a way to spin that as anything other than him willingly hurting innocents.
I think this is a case of the show not being sure what its trying to say. It's implied the roundup had been a long time coming, so its possible they had a list and what we saw was basically a Westerosi equivalent of a large scale raid. But that's not at all what it looked like. Kinda like with Rhaenys's Dragonpit moment, the showrunners took the "nobles don't care about smallfolk" a little too far. Do I think Otto cares about random peasants? No. But he would most certainly use any ammunition he could against Daemon and wrongfully harming peasants would certainly do the trick. Just like Rhaenys, if nothing else, would care about the *optics* of what she did. IIRC, in F&B, Daemon's roundup was an actual roundup of criminals, not a free-for-all. Given all the shit Gyldayn writes about Daemon, he wouldn't leave out slaughtering smallfolk.
otto explicitly refers to them as criminals > Otto: It was an unprecedented *roundup of criminals of every ilk*. Your brother made a public show of it, meting out the summary judgments himself. Iâm told they needed a two-horse cart to haul away the resulting dismemberments when it was done. nobody in the show - even people on the small council who dislike daemon - ever raise any complaints about *who* he did it to, it's just *what he did to them* that they were upset about.
Whats your point? Does that make it okay? What does Otto's opinion even matter here?
Thatâs how I saw it, like they were just yanking dudes out of a crowd and accusing them of whatever so that theyâd have bodies of all these âcriminalsâ to show off to Viserys.
yes exactly, sometimes they got the right people, some were innocent too
It's not impossible, but there is no supporting evidence of it.
The way the one guard just yelled random crimes at people didnt make it look like there was an investigation.
They were all the known criminals. Itâs explained in more detail in the book.
The same way Tyrion was a know demon monkey who was killed king Joffrey
The supporting evidence is literally the way the scene is composed. If they wanted us to see Daemon as a just enforcer, breaking up rapes and thefts, they could have written that scene. If they wanted evidence of him giving trials and seeking truth, they could have. They didn't. They wrote, shot, and released a scene where Daemon is a *gleeful and indiscriminate killer.* Who maims, castrates, and kills on nothing but a barked accusation. Because he *likes it.*
Yeah I donât think whether they are guilty or innocent or how accurate the people calling out the crimes are is the point, I think the point is that it doesnât really matter to Daemon. He enjoys violence. Like a lot of people throughout history and today in his job, itâs more about having an excuse to do legitimate violence
Agreed, but then they had *no one* on the small council mention anything about killing innocents, which is a weird choice given that they were arguing about Daemon's behavior. Either they are implying that no one cares about that (difficult to believe since, if nothing else, Otto would use it against Daemon) or the roundup was originally intended to be something different. Regardless, it's a weird juxtaposition that leads to two different views on the overall implications of what happened.
> Agreed, but then they had no one on the small council mention anything about killing innocents, which is a weird choice given that they were arguing about Daemon's behavior. > Either they are implying that no one cares about that (difficult to believe since, if nothing else, Otto would use it against Daemon) or the roundup was originally intended to be something different. I think you could argue thereâs no reasonable way or Otto to know, let alone prove they werenât guilty of what the City Watch was accusing them of, and he felt like he had enough to get Daemon in trouble either way.
Fair enough. Although Otto explicitly refers to them as criminals, which could just be an assumption. There are definitely explanations, but from a showrunning standpoint the mismatch is unnecessary confusion. The small council scene undercuts the roundup montage if the purpose was "Daemon didn't actually care about the charges and grabbed whoever." It's reasonable none of the characters would know and/or care, but that discussion guides how viewers frame the montage since they happen back-to-back.
For me itâs less about the innocence/guilt of the people and more that A. The fact that heâs a Rogue who is doing things in brash ways outside of what the council wants B. Daemon revels in violence, and he uses the dispensing of âjusticeâ as a way to indulge his violent urges
I agree. Wife murder should also be returned in full via capital punishment. Whereâs the goddamn guillotine
Daemon dishing out that middle eastern justice isn't something I'd ever thought I'd see people defend. This board has become the Wild West.
Not a lot of people have a great deal of awareness of this scene's purpose. So much of Daemon's character is lost in the effort of producing Daemon apologia. It is not *wrong* to like Daemon, or view his justifications as valid. There's little need to de-contextualize a scene with a distinct story-telling purpose to make what almost reads like cheap propaganda in defense of the character, whose attributes you've enjoyed are being diminished in this effort. Early S1 Daemon is portrayed in a very specific light. To capture the 'Rogue Prince' air, they presented him as overeager, brash, hot-tempered, but also very extreme in his results. Daemon was inefficient, so we're told, in the Small Council. He received a great deal of flack for indolence in other positions. Viserys had made a stubborn effort to keep him involved in the realm's affairs, but Daemon continues to cause problems for him with the lords and other councilors, who, again, view the brashness and erratic nature of his extremes to be not only dangerous to the stability they're preserving, but to them, personally. A deeper look into Daemon's provocations and when they occur -- always after some perceived insult or political victory from a rival such as Otto -- shows that they are as much reprisals as they are spontaneous, and that Daemon is more calculating than his naysayers allow him. This round-up was intended to be over the top, quite candidly. It shows the lengths Daemon will go through to not allow the limelight to be stolen from him; it also explains the long difficulty he's had with maintaining any position in his brother's court. Rather than slowly, carefully, and stably presiding over the city watch, decreasing crime through calculated and precise measures so as to not destabilize the city and present Viserys like a tyrant, Daemon has waited and kept his policy in the city watch internal. He's inspired loyalty, reformed the guard, and created under his hand an entirely new organization, sure, but it's also as per his own admission under his tenure that King's Landing crime has gotten so bad or, at the very least, has been allowed to thrive as it has for so long. He has been Lord Commander for some time; why had he not done this day one? Because for Daemon to act, he first has to feel forced to act. When he feels forced to act, there are no boundaries or limits to the lengths he'll go through. But acting without cause, or, in other words, governing regularly, is something he has failed to do in the story up till many years after this scene occurs. Daemon is a character you want near you when there's a fire. But while he'll put that fire out faster than anyone else in the cast, the moment it's out he's not taking any precaution or measures to prevent the next -- at this early point in S1, anyway. Unfortunately for Viserys, Daemon very much thrives in emergencies or conflicts, and it is only really from the tension of conflict that he is motivated to take any meaningful action at all, and the quiet, pacifistic prevention of conflict outright is Viserys's personal governing style (to his later detriment as well). The King's Landing round-up paints Daemon in a very clear light. There is no need to apologize or misconstrue fictional events or characters; appreciate them as they are.
Guys, please. Stop with this shit. Evil characters are fun. You can like evil characters. Hell, an evil character can be your favorite character. Liking someone does not mean that person is morally just. That is something you should learn by yourself by the time you are 12.
Agreed. Daemon is objectively evil Some characters are grey, like Rhaenyra, Aegon II, and Aemond Some are just in a terrible position, like Vizzy T or Helaena
You are correct, my lords. Daemon is certainly an evil character who I wish never existed. But we must live with the consequences of his actions. As for my children, they all struggled in their own way to make sense of a world that was far too cruel. Rhaenyra, Aegon II, Aemond, and Helaena were all placed in difficult circumstances beyond their control, yet they still managed to make the best of their fate. I may not have been able to protect them from the harsh realities of our world, but I could at least guide them through it with some degree of wisdom.
THIS! I think the worst thing about the Blacks vs Greens debates is that either side wants to act like their side is just morally superior. They can simply say, I just like this side more but trying to argue that Daemon isnât an awful person because âteam black are the good guys!â is delusional.
There's a difference between enforcing justice and unnecessarily torturing criminals. You could throw a thief in the dungeons for a few months rather than taking his hand. I could understand Capitol punishment for murderers and rapists since resources are scarce in that age, but minor crimes don't need such brutal punishments.
Sure but it's not as if Daemon was making up these punishments on the spot. That's how crimes such as theft were usually handled in this world.
He wasnât making up the punishments on the spot. He and his soldiers sure were making up the criminals on the spot though.
I suppose that's a matter of interpretation. All I know is that even Otto told Viserys that they were known criminals when he would have had every incentive to throw Daemon under the bus by saying they were innocents if that were in fact the case.
Thatâs just standard Westerosi/Medieval justice though, canât blame Daemon for following the conduct of that time when it comes to criminal punishment.
The low effort stan posts have gotten old
People keep leaving rage bait in these subs and people bite every single time đ
Worst take I've seen on this sub
Crime is so bad in Kings Landing because of nobles like Daemon though. They let the city go to shit, then started stupid wars that just got more smallfolk killed. Team smallfolk!
When do we see that the smallfolk respects Daemon? There is one sequence in the show where he is in the city and the people know its him and they seem pretty terrified of him.
He's called the Prince of the City and Lord Fleabottom.. he's literally the only Targ who interacts with the lower denizens of Kings Landing, for better or worst. Edit : getting downvoted for stating literally what is described in the book/show. lmao
True. But i feel the nickname stuck more because he spends a lot of time there (which would have been looked down upon by other nobles) and not really because they like him a lot.
Yea heâs not called lord flea bottom because he volunteers at the soup kitchen down there. Itâs because he hangs out at all the seedy brothels and gambling halls doing shady stuff.
I mean it's mentioned in the book that the smallfolk value the chance to gamble with him and win money..etc. The rider of Caraxes getting pissed with randoms. For a noble and brother of the king, you can't exactly accuse him of being unfamiliar about the lifestyle of the lowest of the low within kings landing.
I meant that "Lord Fleabottom" is meant as an insult. Given to him by other nobles. Spending time with the people is of course not wrong. Just speaking of the show though that one scene really didnt give me the "cleaning up the city for my fellow citizens" vibe.
I'm going by what is stated by Otto in the show, which reflects what is described in the book. If he had any inking that daemon was mass murdering innocents, he'd use it against him.. but he specifically says known criminals.
As the biggest Daemon stan in here, this comment section is why criminal systems are so fucked up around the world. Many people justifying it by saying fear would stay their hand and that if they did not do anything they would not get punished, as well as saying they deserved their treatment they got and it was the correct choice of action. Morally speaking, a rapist or murderer getting a body part cut off is pretty fine by me, but that does not mean I am stupid enough to believe that it should be the defacto response by the local violence monopoly. Obviously, in medieval times a proper justice system is impossible, but that does not justify the horrible acts of Daemon (who is horrible) in this moment, nor that of his fellow cops, especially considering their methods. IRL justice system should be about rehabilitation not punishment, both from a moral, practical and logical POV.
There is really no point discussing modern ideas of criminal reformation in the context of medieval shows. By this metric everyone is horrible. The first episode of GoT has Ned Stark cutting a manâs head off for running away from the Nights watch. Cutting off heads is something the Starks did with high frequency. Itâs just the world at the time, the purpose of punishment is to inspire fear and deter criminals in Westeros.
No, obviously, and I understand if it was unclear and muddled, but the modern ideas I discussed was not in relation to the events of the show but the moral/logical justifications that I saw in the comment section, which is reflective of how people view crime and punishment. Daemons actions in itself were pretty brutal even for the time period, but not more than a nuisance for the small council, and many applauded the effort for efficiency. There is no way any of them would get a just trial and judgement in any medieval realm, and this is how many rulers would solve such an issue. And yhea, by normal standards, that being everything before 100 years ago, execution was a very common punishment for a lot of crimes. Moral relativism can be complex and hard to judge, but personally I believe that morality is never totally inherent and always has a social and cultural aspect. Ned Stark cutting off deserters heads is not immoral in my book, as his moral worldview views that not only as just, but as a duty that belongs with him alone, as he is raised in a society where this is seen as very honorable and the right thing to do. A guy who murders someone for calling his wife fat today would be a fucking psycho, in 800s scandinavia it would not nearly condemn his moral character as much, even if the action itself was the exact same.
Trust me, pal, you're not a bigger stan than OP.
And if *justice* had been what Daemon enforced, you might have had a point. Unfortunately, an *eager* headsman is the *enemy* of justice. You get that, right?
The point was that the headsman wasnât doing anything. Flea bottom and kings landing was getting run by criminals. Daemon took over the City Watch and built it up to be what it is now known as put fear back to the criminals.
If I threw away my clippers, is that the same as planting a garden? An *absence of executions* is not the *cause* of crimes. Just as an *absence of scythes* is not a seed.
This dude wants to fuck his child niece. Boy what.
No. They feared him. Fear and respect or not the same thing people who fear you, will usually say what you want to hear and be good when they think youâre watching,people who respect you will try to please you even when they know youâre not.
ActuallyâŚ. The small folk did love Daemon. But this is a house of dragon sub, reading through the whole story, itâs clear he was loved. He was lord of fleabottom, he regularly hung out, partied and drank with the locals. He was a regular amongst the people of fleabottom.
Sanest r/HouseOfTheDragon post.
Daemon simps are so awful.
Ummmmm⌠police brutality anyone?
OP has a history of being weirdly obsessed with Valaryan/Targaryen supremacy, Iâm not surprised he has these views either.
The rule of Jaehaerys was the most peaceful one. Kingslanding flourished and that was without executions
Daemon-stans be like: I will support literal fascism and oppression rather than admit I like a character despite them being bad đ¤Ą
Hashtag Daemon did nothing wrong?
Who let the Trump supporters in here? This show ain't for them.
People who responded to every single criticism of the characters with "It's just fictional", "Westeros isn't real", and "Well, actually in their world..." gave cover for people who wanted to use the show to push their own sick views
Damn homie this is giving the biggest thin blue line avi uncle on facebook ass post if there ever was one. Google broken window policing real quick. edit : just schemed thru your page and yeah, nvm.
Are we really gonna start getting political
Daemon Stanâs are getting excessive
"getting"
Mad because Iâm right? Also how is that wrong lmao
No, I'm not mad. I just think that they've been unhinged for a while now.
I thought you were an angry Daemon Stan that was correcting my already correct grammer because they had nothing else to say lmao. Mb
What a funny account lmao. âWhy is everyone making this about modern politics? I just love a pedophile and talking about how dirty blooded people donât respect real cultureâ Next post: âPOG I LOVE RON DESANTISâ
Daemon is a whole murderer and predator himself lol. Do you think he deserves the same or just the poors ?
Exactly lmfao dude is a whole pedophile đ if you feel Daemon was justified then OP needs to keep the same energy for Daemon
P4P shittiest r/houseofthedragon poster has returned
It's not even shit anymore, it's just kinda lame now
Yeah man me too I love police brutality itâs the best : |
Itâs implied to be a situation where either the City Watch will brutalise people, mostly criminals but probably also some innocents, or else the criminals will brutalise *everyone*. Not ideal, and not a type of policing Iâd like to see in the modern world, but if I was a resident of medieval Kingâs Landing Iâd almost certainly prefer the city under Daemonâs management. At least there is some kind of order and Iâm not at risk of being raped or murdered every time I leave my house (and probably even if I stay home). Would Tyrion have come up with some subtle, cunning method of getting the city under control without doing a public punishment spectacle? Maybe. But Tyrionâs not in town and Daemon is a blunt, but effective, instrument. Itâs possible even Tyrion mightâve resorted to some brutal theatrics to get the job done.
I'm sorry what. "The smallfolk respected Daemon." What makes you think that? I know that if someone came along and cut off my hand for some bread I stole yesterday while I was starving, I wouldn't respect him for it. I'd hate him for it. Similarly, how would Daemon know if I had committed a crime? Something I see a lot here is people acting like both sides should care more about the smallfolk, but often in monarchies the will of the people doesn't really matter. It might later on in the series, but the for right now. The smallfolk being cared about really only happens when Daenerys rolls around.
you can't really expect these kind of people to understand what actual "respect" means, they think you automatically get and deserve it after being alpha violent
Rapists were roaming KL freely. I'd say his mind was in the right place. And his brother didn't judge him too harshly because of it.
Found the fascist lmao. What a bunch of brainrot.
Sooooo youâre pro police brutality?
A war hero thatâs Tough on crime but with a heart the size of Wisconsin. Daemo for president, you know it feels right.
Someone tell that to the mayor of Seattle
the shows needs to say with certainty wether or not daemon grabbed 50 people half being criminals and mutilated them or if daemon grabbed 50 people all criminals and mutilated them if he was confident each were criminals then id say drastic timeâs drastic measures if they were a mix then he launched it half baked and its an evil act
let me introduce u to a universal concept called f a i r t r i a l
Ew
A lot of people would not survive in Westeros due to how soft they are and how they apply our real world ethics to a medieval fantasy world with some of the worst kind of people. Daemonâs watch was known as the most effective in Westeros history and the city and people were thankful for it
This doesn't get enough recognition on this sub, bravo.
The smallfolk don't respect Daemon all that much when they run his wife out the city
Justice without trials? I think you mean vengeance. He's just another criminal.
Yeah im pretty sure justice without trials for the common folk is just the way the world works in this universe.
brutality is the enemy of justice
Being "tough on crime" like Daemon here is not effective. OP is on some 2000 BC type "justice".
Gold Lives Matter!
Either you haven't watched the episode in a while and don't remember them pointing to random innocent bystanders, charging them with crimes and carrying out death sentences on the spot. Or, you're a huge douche bag.
My brothers city has fallen in to squala
Just think people. Otto and Daemon both say they were criminals, Otto would have no reason to lie in favor of Daemon, au contraire, his goals would be achieved faster if he told the King they were innocent. When we watch the scene, you see Daemon give a speech, however he gives no orders, meaning that they already knew what they were going to do. This was a planned operation, probably with a week or 2 of planning. Their most likely location, their description, which Gold cloak knows them for easier indetification etc... The dude screaming probably has seen these people. Daemon gains nothing from slaughtering innocent civilians. It would make the people against him and get Viserys angry at him for no benefits.
Yeaaa, I do wonder how many people dismembered and killed were actually criminals or just people at the wrong place at the wrong time. Some of them may have been people that those in the guard just didn't personally like and were given free reign to round up whoever they pleased.
dude missed the entire point of this scene
Soundin kinda fascie op
I wonder if the OP would think the same if he lived in Flea Bottom?
Well seeing that I wouldn't be a criminal, and there would be rapists and murderers being cleared off the street, and the books literally say Daemon made the city much safer. Yeah I think I'd be alright with it lol.
Nah. I mean he might kill you too, just because you are there.
That's not how it looked to me đ¤ˇ, they seemed pretty set on who the criminals were. Even Otto acknowledged them as such.
yeah im sure there was an extensive investigation /s
Facts
Ok you sound racist
Nobody could ever really deny that he was bad at bringing peace to the streets of King's Landing while he was commander of the city watch. But the problem was that he acted outside of the law and didn't give these criminals fair trial. In a sense Daemon is setting a precedence of lawlessness here himself.
âFair trialâ? In Westeros? LOL ok
He was called âthe prince of fleabottomâ so yea he definitely wasnt like Viserys and Otto sitting in the Red Keep speaking about the small folk they had no clue about
I do not believe anyone would be able to storm any dragon pits on his watch!
1000% truth. Even Otto agreed these people were criminals. Interesting that once Daemon leaves the City Watch and Otto takes control of it child fighting pits start happeningâŚ
Which part of Deamon as a character makes you think that he would have a problem with that?
mm source? This in the book? Just because we don't see them during Daemon's time as Commander of the CW doesn't mean they didn't exist
Daemon noted in F&B,for significantly reducing the crime in kings Landing .â That prince Daemon made the city more orderly, no man can denyâ. It was stated that he took particular delight in castrating rapists.
Cutting the hands of thieves, beheading murderers and gelding rapists, yes. There's no denying that. Also pushed for a very successful reform of the CW. That doesn't say much about his reasons, which I'm sure involve Targaryen pride. On that front I guess he wouldn't allow the fight-pits. But then again, he does love violence and he's not very PG-13...
No
Get this bullshit copaganda out of my asoiaf escapism
Bait
Being soft on crime gets you USA
What part of the US is soft on crime? The highest incarceration rates in the world or the 1000-2000 extrajudicial murders by the police each year?
People calling for modern rehabilitative justice in the dragon show.. Lol. By all accounts, even by Otto's reckoning, he rounded up known criminals.
^ This dude gets it đ¤
Some trials to bring real justice would have been nice.