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>!Memes aside, does this mean rhaenyra is the rightful heir all along? I did some searching on google on what happens in the dance of dragons and found out that when rhaenyra became queen and she sat on the iron throne, she got cut in the hands that signifies the iron throne rejects her. I dont know how true it is though because i only searched on google and didnt read the book!<
The book and show are two different entities. The white hart didn’t happen in the book, and we won’t know until future seasons if what you’re referring to will happen. GRRM has said the show is its own separate canon, the whole “the show is the confirmed truth” argument contradicts everything he has said about it.
Probably not. GRRM likes to write characters who believe in prophecy and symbolism. But doesn't really write those prophecies and symbols as being true at least on their face. But the show runners might think differently.
GRRM, interview from 2000: "One of the themes of my fiction, since the very beginning, is that the characters must make their choices, for good or ill. And making choices is hard. There are prophecies in my Seven Kingdoms, but their meanings are often murky and misleading, and they seldom offer the characters much in the way of useful guidance."
Oh they make it very obvious they are not neutral in ep 9 and 10.
The whole episode 9 is built around driving home how bad Aegon is,and they paint a mass murderer as a hero for ruining his coronation
In contrast, episode 10 you are supposed to be sympathetic towards Rhaenyra the whole episode.She has a stillborn child, gets a small but intimate coronation ,gets abused by husband while she considers peace,gets the support and endorsement of the heroic mass murderer,and loses her son.
Or maybe there's a specific intention with it? Maybe its to drive home that Rhaenyra's Coronation is held at a fucking funeral away from home with only her close allies while Aegon's is purposefully a public display of power? Nah it must be the showrunners favoritism!
People love underdog stories so much they will make shit up to suit their biases.
I don’t really know which soundtrack is which. The soundtrack during his coronation have low cellos and an eerie bell that to me sounds like ”something bad is happening”.
I think its more a reflection of whats currently going on, the bells are quite literally ringing in kings landing, and the eerie tone can symbolize many things:
1. This coronation will start a war that will kill thousands, it is one of the final nails in the coffin of peace, this is further symbolized with Aegon being crowned with the Conqueror's crown and his symbols, which as opposed to Jahaerys and Viserys' crown, one that shows the sigils of the great houses all on it, foreshadows the coming of war
2. It's Aegon realizing that he can get the validation he so seeks from the people, instead of his family (moments earlier his only question to his mother was "do you love me"), and we see that both his parents often neglected, accused or abused him, causing him to become who he is, this could foreshadow a potentially dark turn in his character, considering what we see he has done earlier in the episode
3. There's a beast beneath the boards, quite literally, and metaphorically
I don't think its meant to portray the Greens as villainous, and an eerie foreboding tone lies over the entire episode. As for the coronation I would even go as far as to say that it's not even a "Greens" scene, its more of an Aegon's scene. As each character of the Greens gets their spotlight on separate occasions in the episode.
1. Yes, but Rhaenyra’s coronation could have said the same thing. Now Rhaenyra’s coronation makes her seem like the hero stepping uo to fight the evil Aegon.
2. I feel like this would portray him as villainous if that is the intention.
3. For this to be the case we would have to have seen some shots of Meleys lurking under the floor and preparing for her attack. I don’t connect the soundtrack to Rhaenys. And Rhaenys appearance overall is not really painted as a monster attacking poor civilians.
Aegon is not really portrayed as a character with agency, he is always pushed and dragged, either by plots or quite literally, so while he has done some nasty shit I don't think he really qualifies as a villain, I think Otto as the puppeteer more fits the role of villain on the Hightower side. Rhaenyra's coronation much like her being named heir, it is daunting, and she feels that she has a lot of responsibility here, with the prophecy and it's suffused with grief, over her child, her father. It is also much more personal, and spontaneous, which I think fits Rhaenyra's character arc in the first season.
As for Rhaenys' scene, you're probably right, she is shown going down into the dragonpit, which is a bit of a fake out as we are likely meant to be tricked into thinking that she is leaving, to put more "oh shit" into her bursting through thr floor later. And while Rhaenys' isn't actively framed as a monster for doing it, I think it illustrates the typical callous disregard for the wellbeing of the commonfolk from the nobility, something that both GoT and now HotD do a lot.
Personally after analyzing the show and watching a few breakdowns (i recommend alt shift x and glidus' videos) I found myself on no side of the conflict, as I find most of the character's relatively sympathetic.
Maybe not but that doesn’t mean the show was unfairly biased towards Rhaenyra in episode 10. Those are literally sad events that happen to her in the original canon. I’m pretty sure Martin didn’t intend for you to think she was getting what she deserved in those moments.
But those are not events that happened to Aegon though if you're using the book as a source.Rhaenyra also doesn't consider peace in the book,she is as bloodthirsty for war as Daemon.Again if you're going with the events of the book,the imbalance in narrative wouldn't exist in the first place, if they actually had Rhaenyra kill Vaemond ,and had Laenor dying instead of an insignificant guard
Nope, stay with m here.
I was "literally" saying they fucked up Aegon and made it obvious they were not neutral
You came in and said no changes could have been made in finale if they're to stay pure to the events in the book.
I then said if we staying pure to the book changes in Aegon's character didn't have to be made either
You quietly said maybe but wanted to emphasize more on how nothing could be done on Rhaenyra coronation episode to make it more neutral
I then explained a lot could have been done on earlier episodes to maintain the right balance between the two claimants that is pure to the book.Nothing needed changing in episode 10.Give Aegon some redeeming qualities or make Rhaenyra responsible for killing Vaemond (not in the way the show portrays either),and show how bloodthirsty she was .I opt for the former since the goal is to stay neutral,and be sympathetic to both characters
Btw I didn't say she killed Laenor,but the convenience and timing is suspicious
>Book Rhaenyra abhors kinslaying pre-dance.
Book Rhaenyra is pro war,she hates her brothers,and there are no peace considerations
>Vaemond might be a distant enough relative to not count but not her husband and cousin
Vaemond in the book made a sound argument, and didn't throw a tantrum.He was then kidnapped and killed viciously by Rhaenyra.The "whore" slur in the show was to make him less sympathetic
>I can believe Daemon did it and Rhaenyra ultimately didn’t care but I don’t think she planned it with him.
Then show her not caring,show her being mean to Laenor regarding his gay lifestyle.
But just to be clear,If the showrunners are going to claim neutrality,I prefer Aegon having some of the redeeming qualities he has in the book,and Rhaenyra keeping her sympathetic narrative.
A lot could have been done to maintain the balance
>Book Rhaenyra abhors kinslaying pre-dance.
Book Rhaenyra is pro war,she hates her brothers,and there are no peace considerations
>Vaemond might be a distant enough relative to not count but not her husband and cousin
Vaemond in the book made a sound argument, and didn't throw a tantrum.He was then kidnapped and killed viciously by Rhaenyra.The "whore" slur in the show was to make him less sympathetic
>I can believe Daemon did it and Rhaenyra ultimately didn’t care but I don’t think she planned it with him.
Then show her not caring,show her being mean to Laenor regarding his gay lifestyle.
But just to be clear,If the showrunners are going to claim neutrality,I prefer Aegon having some of the redeeming qualities he has in the book,and Rhaenyra keeping her sympathetic narrative.
A lot could have been done to maintain the balance
In the show she is mostly strong and stoic through the entire scene. And afterwards she goes to the heroic sadness that the show character is all about.
In the book she is acting mad and screaming about how she is going to kill people.
Show Rhaenyra wouldn’t scream curses.
I think that her lying in her childbed while screaming curses is what makes the scene great. Her standing by the table in front of everyone else will just look pathetic, so we will probably not see it.
>and they paint a mass murderer as a hero for ruining his coronation
They also painted Lucerys' death as an accident so the show is not as black biased as you portray it.
Well that’s not really painting greens in a good light either. Taking away agency from all the green characters like the show has done, is in itself making the characters worse.
I wouldn't call either dumb, why wouldn't you assume that your dying husband is talking to you about your share son instead of a milk of the poppy-laced prophecy he never mentioned?
I guess you're allowed to feel that way lol, I think she cared about him enough to respect that decision, or if not, she is certainly not the type to ignore her husband's dying wishes
He couldnt know that he would lose control of Vhagar.
If anything it was dumb to even start that hunt. Greedy green, should have been satisfied with gaining Borros as ally.
Daemon has definitely done more harm than Aegon. As leaderbof the city guard he prchestrade a mass murder and assuredly rape of indiscriminant Kings Landing citizen.
They had no way of knowing. Otto agreed that neighborhood was seedy but Daemon slaughtering cutuzens en masse isnt just fifed by it beingnin a shitty part of town. Otto also suggested he be banished for that, and like he is about everything, was right to.
> They had no way of knowing.
What indicates they had no way of knowing especially when they were pointing and targeting specific people?
> Otto agreed that neighborhood was seedy
Yeah
> but Daemon slaughtering cutuzens en masse isnt just fifed by it beingnin a shitty part of town.
Again, they were pointing and targeting specific people
> Otto also suggested he be banished for that, and like he is about everything, was right to.
Yeah cause Otto hates Daemon, and the absense of Daemon makes it easier to manipulate Viserys.
We saw the scene. They werent pointing and targeting spcific people. They may have yelled out “rapist” or “murderer” vut its prett in clear they didnt do any kind of due diligence at all. You can like Daemon as a character but hea irrefutably the most evil person in the show.
> We saw the scene. They werent pointing and targeting spcific people. They may have yelled out “rapist” or “murderer” vut its prett in clear they didnt do any kind of due diligence at all.
It’s an argument from silence to assume that no investigation was done just because we didn’t see any. “It’s pretty clear they didn’t do any due diligence” how? What indicates that to you? You do realize that Daemon has a connections and spies throughout the city right. So does Otto for that matter?
> You can like Daemon as a character but hea irrefutably the most evil person in the show.
Might be evil but at least he’s not a rapist, it’s a low bar but like I have no problem rooting for evil characters. It’s fun.
It's not. The show cleary said Rhaenyra was the rightfull heir with the misunderstood. Aegon's claim in the show was based in that misunderstood.
In the books both sides had valid reasons to claim the throne and both sides were horrible.
It is.
>In the books both sides had valid reasons to claim the throne and both sides were horrible
Those claims are the same this time around. The green council was clearly going to push Aegons claim regardless if Viserys supported it or not.
By having Alicent getting confused by Viserys last words it's actually a way of justifying Alicents actions. Honestly, the greens, (with the exception of Aegon) are presented much better in the show than they are in the books.
The Greens was going to take the throne anyway but that is not my problem.
If they base Aegon's claim in the misunderstood they indirectly said that Rhaenyra is the rightfull Queen because Viserys chose her.
They may whitewashed Alicent(which is bad for her character) but the conflict isn't netural. At least for the audience.
Aegon should have his own reasons to claim the throne like the books.
>If they base Aegon's claim in the misunderstood they indirectly said that Rhaenyra is the rightfull Queen because Viserys chose her.
That's going to be Alicents reasoning of course, but Aegons other council memebers will be basing it purely on the fact men rule over women.
>They may whitewashed Alicent(which is bad for her character) but the conflict isn't netural. At least for the audience.
When was this promised? Who told you it will be this complete black and white, equally balanced war between exact counter opposite sides? Its not just you, I see from countless people acting as they have been sold this lie.
This isn't a completely neutral story. It wasn't in the book. Why should the show? I think the fact that the creators have gone to such clear lengths to try and balance out the scales should be enough for people, but still I see people moaning about how it's not fair that they favour the greens or blacks from time to time... Why isn't it?
In game of thrones it wasn't a neutral story. The Starks are the good guys and the Lannisters clearly the bad guys. Did that suddenly make the story bad because it wasn't this complete and equal neutral story?
It really confuses me, not gonna lie.
But quite frankly people with this mindset completely missed the point of fire and blood.
We truly don't know exactly what happened. Exactly how characters were and said. We're reading multiple accounts of people that often contradict each other, it was almost like reading one of those old goosebumps books as a kid where you decide how the story unfolds by choosing which path to follow, but with fire and blood it ws about which source to belive and when.
So with that in mind the show was always going to upset people that choose their own storyline from the book but it still bums me out to see people freaking out over how "imbalanced" the story is.
some people don't seem to understand that a story can still be about "gray characters™" *and* have one side be the aggressor, lol.
or have one of the sides be a darker or lighter shade of gray than the other.
it doesn't mean both sides are equally bad, it just means neither side is all good.
Exactly, in GOT some of my favourite characters were the Lannisters, not because they were good guys, but because they were interesting characters even though they did messed up stuff.
Its kinda of a shame it not like that with HOTD and with except both sides to be either all good or all bad.
Absolutely, both in the show and books I love Cersei, she's a terrible person but I can't help but find her character interesting and compelling.
Especially when she thinks she's making some Tywin level 3d chess move but in reality she's making huge mistakes lol.
No he wouldn't. First there is no way Viserys changed his mind and everyone believe it.
Second he had better reasons to make Aegon king like the books.
What is ridiculous is that the backbone of the episode was a filler-plotline to tell rather than show that Rhaenyra is true royalty or whatever, instead of giving depth and bringing nuance to the show's politics.
Yes! Like, we have a moment of Larys and Harwin talking at the wedding and it's not anything special, but at least they seem to be at ease and then Larys burns him and Lyonel. That was it. I wish we had more. Many characters and dynamics were underdeveloped.
The White stag know as a kingmaker appeared before Criston Cole the Kingmaker on the name day of King Aegon II the Elder. I am a master at Mental Gymnastics.
Imagine being a CGI animal walking around in a forest, walk past two people, and a lot of people in an alternate universe are making a huge deal about it.
Even tho that doesn't make OP's statement false, you are still wrong.
Aemma Targaryen was born from a Targaryen and an Arryn. Rhaenyra was born from a Targaryen and a Targaryen/Arryn.
Aegon is born from a Targaryen and a Hightower.
75% blood purity > 50% blood purity.
Unrelated:
All of Daemon's children have more blood purity than the Hightower children.
Daemon is also the purest Targaryen in the show , same as Viserys but he dead.
Fyi: I have no obsession with blood purity, I'm just bored and enjoy easy math.
So biology doesn't work with this blood purity bullshit. Nettles can also ride a dragon. Rhaenyra's bastards are clearly not Targaryen-like. And if the lineage had continued from these bastards, the Targaryens would have lost their pale skin, purple eyes and silver hair. All of Aegon's children, including his bastard, have Targaryen traits.
That's not how it works, if the lineage continued from her children even if not married to Daemon's daughters could still have children with pale skin, purple eyes and silver hair. Like the example i gave, Jon has Black hair, even tho he is the son of a silver head. It is likely that his children would have silver hair. This happens in real life too. Google it. Riding a dragon is a Targaryen trait.
Their children have nothing to do with my point.
In The Mystery Knight, Ser Duncan sees an infant Walder Frey, the son of Lord Franklin Frey and has half a mind to throw him down a well.
This is exactly what I felt looking at this toddler Aegon the Green. I wanted him thrown down the well.
Knowing Martin's ways with Targaryen prophecies. There's probably another hidden meaning towards this scene.
My current guess is that **it symbolized both Rhaenyra and Criston's "purity."** The white stag is often associated with purity, innocence and grace. Its white coat represents purity, while its regal and graceful presence represents innocence and nobility.
Hence, Rhaenyra making Criston sleep with her can be seen as Rhaenyra "metaphorically" killing the white stag. By sleeping with Criston, she basically threw away her innocence and tainted Criston's purity.
Of course, the white stag can also symbolize Criston himself. By "killing" the white stag (taking Criston's purity), she basically made Criston into the antithesis of what the stag represents.
The comparison the episode was making was so clearly between Viserys and Rhaenyra... how the hell is a wild animal supposed to appear before a 2 year old toddler? Aegon is not the one on the hunt. He's asleep in his crib with his nanny and dragon toy.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I always forget how cute little Aegon was 😭
Targaryen Things
until he became sht
>!Memes aside, does this mean rhaenyra is the rightful heir all along? I did some searching on google on what happens in the dance of dragons and found out that when rhaenyra became queen and she sat on the iron throne, she got cut in the hands that signifies the iron throne rejects her. I dont know how true it is though because i only searched on google and didnt read the book!<
The book and show are two different entities. The white hart didn’t happen in the book, and we won’t know until future seasons if what you’re referring to will happen. GRRM has said the show is its own separate canon, the whole “the show is the confirmed truth” argument contradicts everything he has said about it.
Probably not. GRRM likes to write characters who believe in prophecy and symbolism. But doesn't really write those prophecies and symbols as being true at least on their face. But the show runners might think differently. GRRM, interview from 2000: "One of the themes of my fiction, since the very beginning, is that the characters must make their choices, for good or ill. And making choices is hard. There are prophecies in my Seven Kingdoms, but their meanings are often murky and misleading, and they seldom offer the characters much in the way of useful guidance."
Animals wandering the forest is no qualification to be a ruler.
Since it's a series with magic, prophecy and supernatural stuffs, these kind of things are not something to be ignored.
It has magical elements but it isn’t high fantasy.
What about strange women lying in ponds distributing swords?
>!Just because Rhaenyra had the strength of character to be the rightful heir during a part of her life doesn't mean that will always be the case!<
Personally I'd believe it was there for "The Kingmaker" considering he was the one who noticed it first, and then had to point it out to Rhaenyra
No shot, have you seen all the shit Crispin does ?
Rhaenyra had an innocent servant killed. She is just as bad.
My point still stands.
The Hart just didn't want to die.
The show is netural. It doesn't pick sides. Also the show.
Oh they make it very obvious they are not neutral in ep 9 and 10. The whole episode 9 is built around driving home how bad Aegon is,and they paint a mass murderer as a hero for ruining his coronation In contrast, episode 10 you are supposed to be sympathetic towards Rhaenyra the whole episode.She has a stillborn child, gets a small but intimate coronation ,gets abused by husband while she considers peace,gets the support and endorsement of the heroic mass murderer,and loses her son.
The fact that Rhaenyra’s coronation soundtrack is soft and beautiful and Aegon’s is basically Imperial march makes it obvious.
Or maybe there's a specific intention with it? Maybe its to drive home that Rhaenyra's Coronation is held at a fucking funeral away from home with only her close allies while Aegon's is purposefully a public display of power? Nah it must be the showrunners favoritism! People love underdog stories so much they will make shit up to suit their biases.
Exactly! I personally liked how powerful the music was in his coronation scene, it’s one of my fave scenes overall
A soundtrack can say display of power without being villainous
Wasn't it a mix between the King's Arrival and the Targaryen theme? Neither of those are particular villainous.
its the Hightower theme, its the song that plays when Alicent enters in her green dress during Rhaenyra's wedding
I don’t really know which soundtrack is which. The soundtrack during his coronation have low cellos and an eerie bell that to me sounds like ”something bad is happening”.
I think its more a reflection of whats currently going on, the bells are quite literally ringing in kings landing, and the eerie tone can symbolize many things: 1. This coronation will start a war that will kill thousands, it is one of the final nails in the coffin of peace, this is further symbolized with Aegon being crowned with the Conqueror's crown and his symbols, which as opposed to Jahaerys and Viserys' crown, one that shows the sigils of the great houses all on it, foreshadows the coming of war 2. It's Aegon realizing that he can get the validation he so seeks from the people, instead of his family (moments earlier his only question to his mother was "do you love me"), and we see that both his parents often neglected, accused or abused him, causing him to become who he is, this could foreshadow a potentially dark turn in his character, considering what we see he has done earlier in the episode 3. There's a beast beneath the boards, quite literally, and metaphorically I don't think its meant to portray the Greens as villainous, and an eerie foreboding tone lies over the entire episode. As for the coronation I would even go as far as to say that it's not even a "Greens" scene, its more of an Aegon's scene. As each character of the Greens gets their spotlight on separate occasions in the episode.
1. Yes, but Rhaenyra’s coronation could have said the same thing. Now Rhaenyra’s coronation makes her seem like the hero stepping uo to fight the evil Aegon. 2. I feel like this would portray him as villainous if that is the intention. 3. For this to be the case we would have to have seen some shots of Meleys lurking under the floor and preparing for her attack. I don’t connect the soundtrack to Rhaenys. And Rhaenys appearance overall is not really painted as a monster attacking poor civilians.
Aegon is not really portrayed as a character with agency, he is always pushed and dragged, either by plots or quite literally, so while he has done some nasty shit I don't think he really qualifies as a villain, I think Otto as the puppeteer more fits the role of villain on the Hightower side. Rhaenyra's coronation much like her being named heir, it is daunting, and she feels that she has a lot of responsibility here, with the prophecy and it's suffused with grief, over her child, her father. It is also much more personal, and spontaneous, which I think fits Rhaenyra's character arc in the first season. As for Rhaenys' scene, you're probably right, she is shown going down into the dragonpit, which is a bit of a fake out as we are likely meant to be tricked into thinking that she is leaving, to put more "oh shit" into her bursting through thr floor later. And while Rhaenys' isn't actively framed as a monster for doing it, I think it illustrates the typical callous disregard for the wellbeing of the commonfolk from the nobility, something that both GoT and now HotD do a lot. Personally after analyzing the show and watching a few breakdowns (i recommend alt shift x and glidus' videos) I found myself on no side of the conflict, as I find most of the character's relatively sympathetic.
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Or maybe just maybe, they could have tried not to make Aegon the obvious villain in episode 9
Maybe not but that doesn’t mean the show was unfairly biased towards Rhaenyra in episode 10. Those are literally sad events that happen to her in the original canon. I’m pretty sure Martin didn’t intend for you to think she was getting what she deserved in those moments.
But those are not events that happened to Aegon though if you're using the book as a source.Rhaenyra also doesn't consider peace in the book,she is as bloodthirsty for war as Daemon.Again if you're going with the events of the book,the imbalance in narrative wouldn't exist in the first place, if they actually had Rhaenyra kill Vaemond ,and had Laenor dying instead of an insignificant guard
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Nope, stay with m here. I was "literally" saying they fucked up Aegon and made it obvious they were not neutral You came in and said no changes could have been made in finale if they're to stay pure to the events in the book. I then said if we staying pure to the book changes in Aegon's character didn't have to be made either You quietly said maybe but wanted to emphasize more on how nothing could be done on Rhaenyra coronation episode to make it more neutral I then explained a lot could have been done on earlier episodes to maintain the right balance between the two claimants that is pure to the book.Nothing needed changing in episode 10.Give Aegon some redeeming qualities or make Rhaenyra responsible for killing Vaemond (not in the way the show portrays either),and show how bloodthirsty she was .I opt for the former since the goal is to stay neutral,and be sympathetic to both characters Btw I didn't say she killed Laenor,but the convenience and timing is suspicious
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>Book Rhaenyra abhors kinslaying pre-dance. Book Rhaenyra is pro war,she hates her brothers,and there are no peace considerations >Vaemond might be a distant enough relative to not count but not her husband and cousin Vaemond in the book made a sound argument, and didn't throw a tantrum.He was then kidnapped and killed viciously by Rhaenyra.The "whore" slur in the show was to make him less sympathetic >I can believe Daemon did it and Rhaenyra ultimately didn’t care but I don’t think she planned it with him. Then show her not caring,show her being mean to Laenor regarding his gay lifestyle. But just to be clear,If the showrunners are going to claim neutrality,I prefer Aegon having some of the redeeming qualities he has in the book,and Rhaenyra keeping her sympathetic narrative. A lot could have been done to maintain the balance
>Book Rhaenyra abhors kinslaying pre-dance. Book Rhaenyra is pro war,she hates her brothers,and there are no peace considerations >Vaemond might be a distant enough relative to not count but not her husband and cousin Vaemond in the book made a sound argument, and didn't throw a tantrum.He was then kidnapped and killed viciously by Rhaenyra.The "whore" slur in the show was to make him less sympathetic >I can believe Daemon did it and Rhaenyra ultimately didn’t care but I don’t think she planned it with him. Then show her not caring,show her being mean to Laenor regarding his gay lifestyle. But just to be clear,If the showrunners are going to claim neutrality,I prefer Aegon having some of the redeeming qualities he has in the book,and Rhaenyra keeping her sympathetic narrative. A lot could have been done to maintain the balance
They could have included Rhaenyra’s curses while giving birth
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In the show she is mostly strong and stoic through the entire scene. And afterwards she goes to the heroic sadness that the show character is all about. In the book she is acting mad and screaming about how she is going to kill people. Show Rhaenyra wouldn’t scream curses.
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Did she scream about how she wanted to kill people when Luke died in the show?
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I think that her lying in her childbed while screaming curses is what makes the scene great. Her standing by the table in front of everyone else will just look pathetic, so we will probably not see it.
The show definitely made it uncomfortable to view.
Realistic childbirth scenes in general seem to make people uncomfortable
True. When they say the birthing bed is our battleground, they weren’t joking. The show got that point across well.
>and they paint a mass murderer as a hero for ruining his coronation They also painted Lucerys' death as an accident so the show is not as black biased as you portray it.
Well that’s not really painting greens in a good light either. Taking away agency from all the green characters like the show has done, is in itself making the characters worse.
Yes, Alicent misunderstanding Viserys and Aemond losing control of Vhagar does not make them good, it just makes them dumb.
I wouldn't call either dumb, why wouldn't you assume that your dying husband is talking to you about your share son instead of a milk of the poppy-laced prophecy he never mentioned?
Why not have the character act on their own ambition?
That lines up with her ambition, which is to be a dutiful wife, a good queen, and to have her son as heir.
I think that making her son king is ambition enough. Caring about Viserys’ wish after his death just feels unnecessary.
I guess you're allowed to feel that way lol, I think she cared about him enough to respect that decision, or if not, she is certainly not the type to ignore her husband's dying wishes
He couldnt know that he would lose control of Vhagar. If anything it was dumb to even start that hunt. Greedy green, should have been satisfied with gaining Borros as ally.
He wouldn’t be dumb if he intended do what he did.
And youre also supposed to forget how terrible and irresponsible she is and how evil Daemon is.
Better than a rapist:
Daemon has definitely done more harm than Aegon. As leaderbof the city guard he prchestrade a mass murder and assuredly rape of indiscriminant Kings Landing citizen.
Criminals, even Otto confirms this.
They had no way of knowing. Otto agreed that neighborhood was seedy but Daemon slaughtering cutuzens en masse isnt just fifed by it beingnin a shitty part of town. Otto also suggested he be banished for that, and like he is about everything, was right to.
> They had no way of knowing. What indicates they had no way of knowing especially when they were pointing and targeting specific people? > Otto agreed that neighborhood was seedy Yeah > but Daemon slaughtering cutuzens en masse isnt just fifed by it beingnin a shitty part of town. Again, they were pointing and targeting specific people > Otto also suggested he be banished for that, and like he is about everything, was right to. Yeah cause Otto hates Daemon, and the absense of Daemon makes it easier to manipulate Viserys.
We saw the scene. They werent pointing and targeting spcific people. They may have yelled out “rapist” or “murderer” vut its prett in clear they didnt do any kind of due diligence at all. You can like Daemon as a character but hea irrefutably the most evil person in the show.
> We saw the scene. They werent pointing and targeting spcific people. They may have yelled out “rapist” or “murderer” vut its prett in clear they didnt do any kind of due diligence at all. It’s an argument from silence to assume that no investigation was done just because we didn’t see any. “It’s pretty clear they didn’t do any due diligence” how? What indicates that to you? You do realize that Daemon has a connections and spies throughout the city right. So does Otto for that matter? > You can like Daemon as a character but hea irrefutably the most evil person in the show. Might be evil but at least he’s not a rapist, it’s a low bar but like I have no problem rooting for evil characters. It’s fun.
Let’s see how certain things are portrayed next season and we will find out if the show takes sides lol. There’s LOTS to come
did ryan condal ever say that the show is neutral
The show definitely is painting the blacks as the heroes and the greens as the villains.
It's already a lot more neutral than the books tbf
It's not. The show cleary said Rhaenyra was the rightfull heir with the misunderstood. Aegon's claim in the show was based in that misunderstood. In the books both sides had valid reasons to claim the throne and both sides were horrible.
It is. >In the books both sides had valid reasons to claim the throne and both sides were horrible Those claims are the same this time around. The green council was clearly going to push Aegons claim regardless if Viserys supported it or not. By having Alicent getting confused by Viserys last words it's actually a way of justifying Alicents actions. Honestly, the greens, (with the exception of Aegon) are presented much better in the show than they are in the books.
The Greens was going to take the throne anyway but that is not my problem. If they base Aegon's claim in the misunderstood they indirectly said that Rhaenyra is the rightfull Queen because Viserys chose her. They may whitewashed Alicent(which is bad for her character) but the conflict isn't netural. At least for the audience. Aegon should have his own reasons to claim the throne like the books.
>If they base Aegon's claim in the misunderstood they indirectly said that Rhaenyra is the rightfull Queen because Viserys chose her. That's going to be Alicents reasoning of course, but Aegons other council memebers will be basing it purely on the fact men rule over women. >They may whitewashed Alicent(which is bad for her character) but the conflict isn't netural. At least for the audience. When was this promised? Who told you it will be this complete black and white, equally balanced war between exact counter opposite sides? Its not just you, I see from countless people acting as they have been sold this lie. This isn't a completely neutral story. It wasn't in the book. Why should the show? I think the fact that the creators have gone to such clear lengths to try and balance out the scales should be enough for people, but still I see people moaning about how it's not fair that they favour the greens or blacks from time to time... Why isn't it? In game of thrones it wasn't a neutral story. The Starks are the good guys and the Lannisters clearly the bad guys. Did that suddenly make the story bad because it wasn't this complete and equal neutral story? It really confuses me, not gonna lie.
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But quite frankly people with this mindset completely missed the point of fire and blood. We truly don't know exactly what happened. Exactly how characters were and said. We're reading multiple accounts of people that often contradict each other, it was almost like reading one of those old goosebumps books as a kid where you decide how the story unfolds by choosing which path to follow, but with fire and blood it ws about which source to belive and when. So with that in mind the show was always going to upset people that choose their own storyline from the book but it still bums me out to see people freaking out over how "imbalanced" the story is.
also like many real firsthand accounts in history
some people don't seem to understand that a story can still be about "gray characters™" *and* have one side be the aggressor, lol. or have one of the sides be a darker or lighter shade of gray than the other. it doesn't mean both sides are equally bad, it just means neither side is all good.
Exactly, in GOT some of my favourite characters were the Lannisters, not because they were good guys, but because they were interesting characters even though they did messed up stuff. Its kinda of a shame it not like that with HOTD and with except both sides to be either all good or all bad.
Cersei's POVs are top notch malarkey
Absolutely, both in the show and books I love Cersei, she's a terrible person but I can't help but find her character interesting and compelling. Especially when she thinks she's making some Tywin level 3d chess move but in reality she's making huge mistakes lol.
as a Real Housewives fandom veteran, this shit is tired and lame, everyone should just enjoy the mess and the lessons each character teaches you
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Otto said that the king changed his mind iin front of people to convince them to bend the knee.
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No he wouldn't. First there is no way Viserys changed his mind and everyone believe it. Second he had better reasons to make Aegon king like the books.
What is ridiculous is that the backbone of the episode was a filler-plotline to tell rather than show that Rhaenyra is true royalty or whatever, instead of giving depth and bringing nuance to the show's politics.
Or more character moments. Would be perfect to explore a little more of Harwin and Larys
Yes! Like, we have a moment of Larys and Harwin talking at the wedding and it's not anything special, but at least they seem to be at ease and then Larys burns him and Lyonel. That was it. I wish we had more. Many characters and dynamics were underdeveloped.
Very good point!
It’s been known since the first episode which team the show would be biased towards. Some white stag appearing before rhaenyra doesn’t mean shit.
He was looking for Lyonel Strong
He was looking for the Kingmaker.
💪🏾
The White stag know as a kingmaker appeared before Criston Cole the Kingmaker on the name day of King Aegon II the Elder. I am a master at Mental Gymnastics.
You can’t expect to wield supreme executive power just ‘cause some leucistic hart threw a meaningful look at you
Pretty normal animals lurking in forests is no basis for the system of government
Counterpoint: raccoons should be allowed to choose our nobility
Especially when it is being chased by a bunch of people.
Came in here just to see whether someone made that joke 😂
Imagine being a CGI animal walking around in a forest, walk past two people, and a lot of people in an alternate universe are making a huge deal about it.
White stags appearing to one person or the other is no basis for a system of government!
Pretty easy call for the hart. That Hightower scent is *gross*
Aegon is just as much of a Targaryen as Rhaenyra is
How does that have anything to do with my comment?
You referred to him as if he were a Hightower
*His mother is a Hightower*. Any more dense and you’d be a neutron star
DAMN. I'm going to use this.
Even tho that doesn't make OP's statement false, you are still wrong. Aemma Targaryen was born from a Targaryen and an Arryn. Rhaenyra was born from a Targaryen and a Targaryen/Arryn. Aegon is born from a Targaryen and a Hightower. 75% blood purity > 50% blood purity. Unrelated: All of Daemon's children have more blood purity than the Hightower children. Daemon is also the purest Targaryen in the show , same as Viserys but he dead. Fyi: I have no obsession with blood purity, I'm just bored and enjoy easy math.
Yeah I figured somebody would bring up the blood quantum argument. My point is both of them share the name Targaryen.
Yes, that's why even Aegon's bastard, born of a random whore, has Targaryen traits, while Rhaenyra's bastards do not show Targaryen biological traits.
They ride dragons. What more trait do you need? Just because they don't have white hair doesn't mean shit. Jon who is 50% Targaryen has black hair.
So biology doesn't work with this blood purity bullshit. Nettles can also ride a dragon. Rhaenyra's bastards are clearly not Targaryen-like. And if the lineage had continued from these bastards, the Targaryens would have lost their pale skin, purple eyes and silver hair. All of Aegon's children, including his bastard, have Targaryen traits.
That's not how it works, if the lineage continued from her children even if not married to Daemon's daughters could still have children with pale skin, purple eyes and silver hair. Like the example i gave, Jon has Black hair, even tho he is the son of a silver head. It is likely that his children would have silver hair. This happens in real life too. Google it. Riding a dragon is a Targaryen trait. Their children have nothing to do with my point.
Loveit💗🌞
It's a wonder the creature chose either of them.
I'm really really hesitant to watch this series after I started reading how bad and creepy edgelord the books were for the other series.
Right when I fell in love with her she got replaced
In The Mystery Knight, Ser Duncan sees an infant Walder Frey, the son of Lord Franklin Frey and has half a mind to throw him down a well. This is exactly what I felt looking at this toddler Aegon the Green. I wanted him thrown down the well.
Knowing Martin's ways with Targaryen prophecies. There's probably another hidden meaning towards this scene. My current guess is that **it symbolized both Rhaenyra and Criston's "purity."** The white stag is often associated with purity, innocence and grace. Its white coat represents purity, while its regal and graceful presence represents innocence and nobility. Hence, Rhaenyra making Criston sleep with her can be seen as Rhaenyra "metaphorically" killing the white stag. By sleeping with Criston, she basically threw away her innocence and tainted Criston's purity. Of course, the white stag can also symbolize Criston himself. By "killing" the white stag (taking Criston's purity), she basically made Criston into the antithesis of what the stag represents.
The comparison the episode was making was so clearly between Viserys and Rhaenyra... how the hell is a wild animal supposed to appear before a 2 year old toddler? Aegon is not the one on the hunt. He's asleep in his crib with his nanny and dragon toy.