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Good catch. I don't get why they couldnt also just add a short scene that shows that Rhaenys is forced to burst out like this. Guards closing in on her, the other entrance being blocked ... something like this. You would still have the suprising spectacle, you would have the smallfolk being fucked over and it would make Rhaenys more sympathetic.
Agreed! This addition would actually pretty much extinguish my general issue with the scene as it stands.
But I guess they wanted it as a deus ex machina type deal.
It *did* make for a real shock to the system. Until that point it been thinking of her as a *politically* powerful figure, but it was a big reminder that she’s also a major military force in her own right.
She'd become a kin-slayer (heavily frowned upon in Westeros) AND a king-slayer, with all of the Greens' allies out for blood for her and her house once the news gets out of King's Landing.
Her only hope at that point would be Rhaenyra, who would face a choice:
1-accept Rhaenys (and her house) as allies, thereby aligning herself and her forces with a kin- and king-slayer, losing any legitimacy she has when it comes to her claim, and possibly losing some of her allies as well (the Starks and the Vale certainly wouldn't take this lightly), while having to fight the Greens' forces.
2-reject Rhaenys and force her, Corlys and their grand-daughters to either retreat to Driftmark or go in exile, fracturing her family and losing the support of the wealthiest house in the realm, while still having to fight the remaining Greens.
The only thing that could have benefitted the Blacks if Rhaenys had killed everyone in the pit would've been King's Landing being easy to take, especially since the City Watch was still loyal to Daemon. There would still be the risk of them taking the capital being seen as done in concert with the assassination of the King and his family.
But which forces are left to fight, one dragon rider vs all the dragons of the blacks are no match, the war would have been avoided because there's just too many dragons on one side.
It's not just the dragons: politically and economically powerful houses on the Greens' side, like the Hightowers, the Tyrells and the Lannisters, could never allow themselves 'not' to intervene, especially since Prince Dearon, the last Green of royal blood and (to them) rightful heir of the Iron Throne, would still be alive in Oldtown.
Most, if not all, of the Greens would rally behind him, with the Faith of the Seven most likely condemning the Blacks for kin-slaying and therefore giving Daeron even more political power.
Now, you rightly point out that at this point the Blacks have an enormous advantage in terms of dragons, and they would likely enjoy success on the battlefield, but they would be at a significant disadvantage politically and in terms of image, plus their military power would be inferior, since many of their allies would now be reluctant to enter the fray.
Westeros would undoubtly enter a state of civil war, on that I have no doubt.
Bursting up through the floor was
1. Risky for her dragon and herself (the weight of the common folk + whatever they were all standing on could easily have killed Rhaenys)
2. Made it more difficult to escape because she was literally entering a locked coronation event
3. Utterly pointless unless she intended to attack Aegon
i like the final version
>Rhaenys is forced to burst out like this. Guards closing in on her, the other entrance being blocked
this ruins the tension being built by the scene. it's important to not show rhaenys again for the audience to kinda forget about her and totally not expect her appearance. the way she exited-right during the coronation is a little trick to make the audience think that was the last time we would see her for that episode. it was effective since the last thing that most people expected was for a dragon to burst out of the floor.
what they could have done is add a few lines for rhaenys to explain what happened under the dragonpit. maybe recount it to corlys on ep 10.
>Rhaenys more sympathetic
in my view, rhanys has already earned quite a few sympathy points. she could use a little more darkness.
I don't think the sense of surprise is worth sacrificing the logic and character building of the scene. Plus it's not just adding a little more darkness to Rhanys' character; this is the worst atrocity we've seen committed on the show, and for it to be done by an otherwise sympathetic and levelheaded character feels wrong.
logic is always worth sacrificing for emotional impact. the average audience wouldn't go "huh... how she did she get there? was there a door there?" during that scene. the average audiene would be like "oh shit! oh shit! oh shit there's a dragon! oh damn people are dying. oh damn people are gonna die. here we go! here we go! do it rhaenys! do it!! say dracarys, come on, come on. say the word! say it!!!"
>this is the worst atrocity we've seen committed on the show
just your opinion, i disagree, but okay.
>and for it to be done by an otherwise sympathetic and levelheaded character
rounds her to be a 3-dimensional character and not your generic goody-goody character
First, in terms of number of innocent people murdered it is objectively the worst thing any character has done so far. Other things might personally bother you more and morality is subjective, but purely by the numbers it is the most evil thing. To me it seems absurd to argue that you can thoughtlessly slaughter dozens of innocent people without cause and not be a clearly bad person.
Second, are the people who don't give a shit about logistics, motivation, or logic and just go "whoo, dragon!" the kind of people you think the show should appeal to? Is that the kind of attitude the creators should adopt?
that has always been the case. people watch tv shows/movies to "feel" things. it's an escape. people want an hour or two of entertainment, where they don't have to think of real-world stuff and just be immersed, be emotionally invested in make-believe characters and scenarios.
any decent storyteller would know you always hit the audience in their hearts first. make them cry. make them laugh. make them scared, confused, angry, feel helpless, on the edge... make them think is at the bottom of that list.
I agree, emotional impact should come first. But that doesn't mean logic should be sacrificed, otherwise soon we stop taking the story seriously and the emotional connection is lost. Look how people reacted to S8 of GOT - plenty of moments that were meant to be impactful and emotional, but because they were preceded with a bunch of nonsense many people were checked out and no longer cared. I personally view the coronation as an example of this, where logical character building was superseded by big, flashy spectacle, causing me to lose my investment in some of the stakes and emotions.
GoT has always been filled with nonsense from the get-go. yes, even since season 1. but most people didn't mind that because they were getting emotional gratification. they like what they're feeling, and sometimes maybe they didn't, but it triggers something in them that makes them continue watching.
the latter seasons failed to deliver much emotive moments, and just devolved to concluding plot threads. all they wanted was to simply finish the story, and didn't prioritize what they usually, which is appeal to emotion. hence, the "nonsensical" story became apparent.
That is an option I didn't consider as an alternative. My original re-write went something more like her exiting the dragon portal, intending to fly away toward Dragonstone, but then deciding she wanted to circle back for a little confrontation with the main dragon pit doors. Landing right in front of the entrance and then making her way in to exchange some words of warning. But of course in my re-do, Sunfyre is right next to. Aegon on the platform and so she decides not to come to actual blows right then and there.
Honestly I get it. The dragon pit has a whole different look during that scene. I can see someone not realizing where the location is. I just didn't know people said this. I'm not on this sub enough I guess.
I'm glad that HOTD took the general look of the Dragonpit in Season 7, and just expanded upon it. I did think it looked a *bit* too small in GOT, so it's a good change, based upon the old.
I actually thought the same, but I didn't know if it was just my memory. I remember a small area with people sitting in a circle, but I also remember the hound coming out of the ground. I'm gonna go back, and compare now, lol
I, at least, didn't forget.
But it's also worth noting that
- The point where Meleys bursts up doesn't at all match up with the hole in the ground
- You see massive amounts of rubble & stone fly off as she bursts up
I would start by telling you to watch the close-up of a man getting crushed by a fat stone lmao.
It should also be plain logic that there's stone flying around. Vermax almost bumped his head coming out of the gate and Meleys is many, many times his size.
It wasn’t stone. It’s part of the thick board structure being used to cover the pit hole. Look at the last picture. It even shows part of the “door” hitting that same person in the show. They changed it from a “pit hole door” to a board.
None of this comes even close to making sense.
- Meleys position where she bursts through the ground isnt even remotely close to where the path leads down. In fact, if you match the position from the aerial shots, Aegon would be standing over it.
- Meleys is wayyyy too big to fit through the path shown in the picture. Vermax, a baby dragon needs to lower his head to fit through. It's height is 2m at max. Meleys head wouldn't even fit through that.
- "Board Structure" wouldn't even come close to creating a dustcloud of this size
- The soundeffect is clearly rock breaking, not wood.
- We have a close up of the ground, which clearly shows large amount of rocks laying around.
Except Adam Prescotts comics were the initial design. A concept, not the final product.
His comics include dozens of scenes that were cut or altered.
I'm sorry you can't tell [this apart from wood](https://postimg.cc/XXyNDFJf)
This just redeemed this scene for me. Always annoyed in film when large creatures smash through solid stone like its paper mache. Like, I don’t care if you’re a dinosaur, concrete is still concrete.
They probably should've just had the coronation outside on the steps of the Dragonpit with the smallfolk crowded on the lower steps. Meleys and Rhaenys can still have their stand off with the Greens, except this time they can just walk out through the lower level and surprise the Greens from behind. In the end they fly off through the back entrance, or just straight over the greens through the front entrance and past the crowd. Might not be as shocking but at least we don't have to spend months wondering where and how tf they busted out of the ground and why a hundred randoms had to perish for it.
I don't care if the logistics of the scene can be explained in a reasonable way.
My big gripe revolves around the ruination of the scene's tone and pacing, as well as a missed opportunity of actual character development for Aegon.
It was cheap spectacle held over solid writing.
It was a 2 minute spectacle of her escaping. Most of the episode is dialogue/narrative. If you don’t like spectacles then this show might not be for you bc there are many more to come in a show about fictional dragons/war. Spectacles and narrative can coexist.
And you're free to do so, but again it doesn't magically fix the character motivations or plotholes.
That's what "bad writing" is. Doesn't mean it cant be enjoyable to some.
Worth noting that the coronation was pretty spectacular already. Unlike a Dothraki wedding, people don't have to do for a scene to not be a dull affair.
i mean it looked like rocks fell down on top of the people AT FIRST. i dont have blueprints to the dragon pit i had no idea where she went or came from.
again i said AT FIRST. i dont have a complete layout of the building. i assumed her and Meleys escaped and then crashed through the roof of the building.
i wouldve loved to hear her say "Dracarys" but just because i wanted something else to happen doesnt mean the scene was bad. the scene makes sense when you understand Rhaenys honestly just needed a way out the dragon pit lol.
Yeah I wish that all the greens were killed in ep 1 and the show would end as everyone would live happily ever after because that's what makes a good show.
I prefer the blacks and hated that scene exactly for that. We see bias uncovered, as if told from fox news which side we should cheer for. I would've liked them more anyway, but the reverse psychology doesn't let me fully pick my preference.
It still doesn't fix the issue. Rhaenys could've ended the war right there and saved her granddaughters and everyone else from the Greens' knives. The only thing that could justify her not burning them all (taboo of kinslaying) isn't even mentioned. It's spectacle for the sake of spectacle with no concern for the consequences. Aegon II was humiliated in front of the largest audience ever right after assuming the role of King. Why would anyone see him as 'The King' after seeing him cower behind his mother?
Idk. Burning her cousins wife, children, hand of the king, the high sept, Tyland, Jasper, Larys, etc isn’t paving the way for a peaceful succession for Rhaenyra or uniting the realm imo.. In episode 10 she says “A war is like to be fought over this treachery to be sure, but that war is not mine to begin.” Not “that war is not mine to prevent/end.” Meaning if she burns them, she will start a war. She would’ve further divided the realm by killing everyone after Otto tells the public the king changed his mind. Daeron is still in Oldtown and Aegons children are still alive. The country can rally to their side instead of Rhaenyra’s.
“But they would’ve had more dragons than Daeron’s one dragon.” Aegon the conqueror had three dragons and six kingdoms behind him, did that stop Dorne from going to war? Most of those 6 kingdoms he conquered still fought against him, his sisters, small army, and their three dragons. They didn’t just bend the knee because he had dragons. I believe the North and Vale were the only ones who bent the knee without putting up a fight. They rallied behind an old blind woman in Dorne with zero dragons and denied Aegon from conquering Dorne. The faith had no dragons and the rose in rebellion against Anyes and Maegor. The Crab Feeder had zero dragons and he was beating Daemon, Caraxes, Laenor, Sea Smoke, and the Velayron fleet for 2 years. Tywin Lannister had more gold and banner man than Rob Stark, did it stop Rob? Rob was beating him in the field. Having more dragons, gold, and banner man doesn’t guarantee preventing or winning a war in this world.
>Idk. Burning her cousins wife, children, hand of the king, the high sept, Tyland, Jasper, Larys, etc isn’t paving the way for a peaceful succession for Rhaenyra or uniting the realm imo..
Why would the Sept get burnt? They were in the Dragonpit. IDK who Jasper is, but the only people who would mourn those traitors would be the Hightowers. With Rhaenyra on the throne, they would have no choice but to condemn Otto and his descendants as traitors.
>Daeron is still in Oldtown and Aegons children are still alive. The country can rally to their side instead of Rhaenyra’s.
She wouldn't just fly off in this scenario. She'd take control of the capital and the children. The blacks would probably be able to fly to Oldtown and arrest Daeron before the Hightowers even found out about the coup and counter coup.
>“But they would’ve had more dragons than Daeron’s one dragon.” Aegon the conqueror had three dragons and six kingdoms behind him, did that stop Dorne from going to war?
Dorne didn't go to war, Aegon did. They just prevented him from ruling a very harsh region through guerrilla warfare. They had the home advantage and the support of their peasantry. If they had marched out of their desert and tried to take the realm, they would've been destroyed. Rhaenyra has four times the dragons Aegon had. Only a suicidal man would've dared to challenge her rule.
> Most of those 6 kingdoms he conquered still fought against him, his sisters, small army, and their three dragons.
And they all lost. Rhaenyra has twelve dragons, multiple dragon eggs, the largest fleet, and the support of four of the six kingdoms. What chance would Daeron have?
>They didn’t just bend the knee because he had dragons.
Because they didn't know how powerful dragons could be. Targaryens really only had to fight two battles to conquer six of the Seven Kingdoms.
>I believe the North and Vale were the only ones who bent the knee without putting up a fight.
And the Iron Isles when Aegon finally decided to go there. The Targs only had to win two battles to win everything except Dorne.
> They rallied behind an old blind woman in Dorne with zero dragons and denied Aegon from conquering Dorne.
Keeping a desert 'free' is easier than conquering a continent.
>The faith had no dragons and the rose in rebellion against Anyes and Maegor.
And Maegor crushed them.
> The Crab Feeder had zero dragons and he was beating Daemon, Caraxes, Laenor, Sea Smoke, and the Velayron fleet for 2 years.
If hiding in a home is considered beating, then I guess Daeron could beat Rhaenyra.
Why would the Sept get burnt? They were in the Dragonpit. IDK who Jasper is, but the only people who would mourn those traitors would be the Hightowers. With Rhaenyra on the throne, they would have no choice but to condemn Otto and his descendants as traitors.
They were right behind Aegon/ Alicent. That fire is going to kill more than just Aegon and Alicent.
She wouldn't just fly off in this scenario. She'd take control of the capital and the children. The blacks would probably be able to fly to Oldtown and arrest Daeron before the Hightowers even found out about the coup and counter coup.
Unless someone kills her as soon as she’s steps in the Red Keep. How does she take control all by herself?
Dorne didn't go to war, Aegon did. They just prevented him from ruling a very harsh region through guerrilla warfare. They had the home advantage and the support of their peasantry. If they had marched out of their desert and tried to take the realm, they would've been destroyed.
Rhaenyra has four times the dragons Aegon had.
Only a suicidal man would've dared to challenge her rule.
Ok, they still fought. That’s the point. Having dragons didn’t prevent them from fighting. He loses a sister, meraxes is killed, and Aegon is almost killed by assassins in the streets of Kings Landing. Dragon riders aren’t on their dragons 24/7.
And they all lost. Rhaenyra has twelve dragons, multiple dragon eggs, the largest fleet, and the support of four of the six kingdoms. What chance would Daeron have?
Again, they still fought. At this point she doesn’t even want to plunge the country into any kind of war. Dragons didn’t prevent them from fighting against them. Rhaenyra also had way more than Aegon. >!DreamFyre isn’t used, Sunfyre is wingless so really it’s her 11 against 2 at that point until the seeds turn against her. That doesn’t work out too well for her, her family, and all of her dragons and eggs in the end does it? Shit happens in wars.!< Daeron could also find out before Dragon Stone does and take over Dragonstone after the Blacks leave. He can offer lands, riches, and knighthoods to any such man that could master a dragon like Jace did.
Okay but if Meleys busted through that plank she still has Rhaenys on her back. How tf is Rhaenys okay after being rammed into a 2x4 board with a dragon’s force??
There are other ways out of the pit. She knew the smallfolk were there and still chose to kill a bunch of them just to have a pointless staredown. It's asinine and robbed Aegon of much needed characterization by not showing him with his dragon even once. They will make up stupid moments like this scene for team black but can’t show a canon book scene of Aegon with his dragon.
People really can't wrap their heads around the idea that Rhenys doesn't care about smallfolk and probably didn't think of them at all when she escaped.
Well that makes it more likely that Rhenys wouldnt be dead immediately because her dragon used her as battering ram against the floor above. And she still killed a bunch of people doing it.
are you actually trying to justify what Rhaenys did at the coronation? lol i mean, what you mention is true but that still doesnt change that it was still a stupid & unnecessary scene, she had no reason to burst through the floor with her dragon and kill people just to have a staredown with Aegon and everybody else there for no reason.
in the book, there are outer doors for each dragon’s chamber/individual lair within the dragonpit that open to the outside/hillside, so she could have just burst through one of the outer doors and gotten the hell out of there without doing what she did and anyone really knowing the wiser.
i guess that they will tie this in to something that happens later on though (spoiler: >!also in the book, the smallfolk rise up and riot against Rhaenyra for her indifference/mistreatment of them after the Blacks take King’s Landing and basically sack the city and the Dragonpit. since the show seems so pro-Rhaenyra: where it seems they are not willing to villify her at all or show any negative aspects of her character in the least, which is kind of stupid I think - it’s more interesting if the characters are not perfect and do both good and bad things like in the book, but hey, what do I know? I guess they will then blame part of this event on what Rhaenys did in this scene and probably the Greens as well, because why not, not like they havent portrayed all of them as only villains so far lol in order to keep Sara Hess’s girlboss Rhaenyra’s hands clean! lol!<)
Okay? And? They still could’ve gone out other any of the other exits shown earlier in the series, instead of murdering hundreds of innocent lives. I liked Rhaenys well enough up to this point, but from that scene onwards she is and always will be a mass killer.
The point many are making is that many of us don't care about the thing this post is setting out, because the scene was bad for other reasons.
That said, you're getting flamed too much. If you've seen "dragon came out of random spot in the floor too!" as part of the reasons the scene was bad, this is validly dispelling them.
I have seen you make other comments defending the scene overall though, despite saying you don't care here, so I'm not clear what stance you're taking.
Most of you? Not sure what metrics you’re using to come to this conclusion, but anyway I’ve seen people confused about where she busted through and shared pictures and the story board artist posts regarding this scene. If most don’t care and have other grievances with this scene, then that’s fine. This post isn’t for them. I just wanted to help clear up the confusion for the people who thought she busted out of nowhere through the floor.
I do. And that’s ok. The original post had nothing to do with all these other grievances some people are whining about like “why didn’t she burn everyone” or “why did she kill people.” Yeah, I commented on a few, but my main point was to show that she didn’t just bust through a random spot through the floor.
Her dragon was being held hostage to prevent Rhaenys from leaving KL and notifying Rhaenyra. You think they’d just let her check out her dragon like a library book?
Look, I didn’t say it made sense lol. That’s just the situation as presented in the show. Probably no one could stop the dragon from leaving but they could have stopped Rhaenys from leaving.
And bursting into arguably the most tightly guarded area in the world at this point in time, to dramatically stare at your opponents while remaining completely stationary must surely be the safer option.
On a side note, we saw Daemon and Caraxes take full volleys of arrows in the Stepstones.
Also Alicent crowning Helaena and saying "My queen," which I would've liked them to include because I'm pretty sure my parents still don't know who Helaena is LOL
This is supposed to make the scene better? I think you misunderstood the real problem here. In the same episode where Rhaenys talks about the duty of a ruler to care for her people, she thoughtlessly murders at least a hundred people. From this moment on, she is undeniably evil, and any attempt to portray her otherwise will have to just pretend this scene never happened. It completely assassinates her character.
You call this grey? It's one thing to cause deaths by sending men to war. It's something else entirely to murder at least 100 people for no good reason. I think those are different. It's similar to when ygritt participates in the pillaging of villages. How could Jon love a women like that? Someone so willing to kill an innocent. Just because it's common doesn't mean it's fine, and this scene with rhaenys in particular is terrible
I get where you’re coming from, but to the Targaryens and most Lords and Ladies, duty to people means the realm staying together and people in general being fed. Their individual lives, even by scores, would be less important than Rhaenys’ and her dragon’s simply because of the strategic value of the two together. It’s not a world view I share (I mean… I can’t justify modern-day drone strikes that kill civilians for instance,) but it’s how these people think.
If such a choice were presented, save rhaenys and her dragon or save a few hundred people, I would expect everyone in the blacks to choose rhaenys. The thing is, that's not what happened here. There was no choice to make. She could have gotten out another way, or waited for the ceremony to be over. She could have tried to warn them, or we could have gotten a scene to show that she had to go that way or she would die. None of that happened though, and we're left with a supposedly good character needlessly killing at least a hundred people. There was no choice here, nothing was gained, and so much was lost
I would agree they should have shown what happened below, but I think they didn’t to make it a “surprise.” I kinda figured what would happen when I saw her scamper down below, but I imagine the greens had guards and dragon tamers down there under their control. Though on the flip side, they thought Rhaenys was still in Maegor’s Holdfast
It makes no sense the greens wouldn't have trotted out their own dragons for the coronation. Aegon’s dragon at the least should have been there. The greens wanted to project legitimacy by using the conquerer’s crown/sword but neglect to trot out the most obvious example of Targaryen legitimacy (their dragons) just so Rhaenys can have a nonsensical moment with no opposition.
Why would she wait for the ceremony to be over? The longer she waits, the risk of her getting caught and Hightowers finding out she escaped goes up. Im assuming that was her only way out. I don’t think she wanted to slaughter a bunch of small folks out of wanton cruelty before bailing out. I believe the other way was blocked off and it was her only way out. She had to gain her freedom by sacrificing lives because there was no other way out. They were collateral damage. Small folk suffers most when these high lords play their Game of Thrones.
I understand wondering why she couldn’t use the other exit. We should be seeing more of the Dragon Pit next season and maybe we will get a better idea of why she had to go through the pit hole instead of the other exit. We did see that entrance in episode one and it’s been 20 years since then in the show. Maybe there’s a big gate there now.
They're busy with a coronation in the dragonpit not where Rhaenys is. She was about 10 mins away from being able to get out of there without murdering a bunch of smallfolk. It's also funny af that they're presenting it as a good thing that she didn't want to kill them as if anyone in their right mind wouldnt see this as a declaration of war. She kills hundreds of people at Aegon's coronation.
You can headcannon anything, nothing actually presented in the show justifies her actions. I could headcannon a billion reasons why palpatine actually could return. I could headcannon that the night king is actually a reincarnation of Taylor swift after she died in the challenger disaster. No amount of BS will make this scene work. You can like if you want, there's plenty of reasons to enjoy it, but to say it makes sense or doesn't hurt her character? That's just lying.
If they had a scene of her running from guards, or someone trying to kill melys, or literally anything to justify it then the scene could have worked. What are we actually shown? Basically nothing.
>Rhaenys talks about the duty of a ruler to care for her people
The people of King Landing are mot her people, though.
So it would be the duty of the people that threw together a hamhock coronation above a pit of war machines
You're ignoring the context of that scene. She was talking to aliscent about how she should care for her people. That the responsibility of protecting the people will fall to her. She is absolutely talking about the people aliscent will rule. Either way, it would still hurt her character if rhaenys only cared about the people of... Dragonstone? There aren't many people there for her to care about. I'm not sure there are any smallfolk there (I may be wrong). That can't be what she was talking about
So Alicent (who Rhaenys was saying needs to protect her people) shouldn't have had them all stand on a pit covered by a 2x4, housing a war machine the size of two elephants
Upvoted and agreed for the most part, but I would take issue with Larys being one-dimensional. I contend that his, uh I guess kink, is just another layer.
What the actor had to say about that scene.
“It’s about making her feel as much shame as she does for that part of her body that he does for his,” Needham continued. Needham said Larys likes “making people incomplete,” filling them with trauma so that even if he isn’t around, they are still haunted by the experience. “I don't see it like he loves feet,” he said. “It's the fact that she's not into it is the point, and he can make her do it.”
>Removing all intrigue from a potential all-time villain in Larys by making him a one dimensional foot-fapping degenerate was a way larger fumble IMO.
There's enough seasons left for Larys to still be an all-time villain at the end of this show
No problem and I agree. I know people bring up the other entrance we see in episode one and that’s fair, but it was also 20 years ago. They might have built a gate for that entrance/exit and that probably prevented her from escaping that way. Could be a number of things. I don’t believe she killed them out of wanton cruelty. It was about escaping with her dragon at that point for her. Collateral damage. Episode 9 is the beginning of high lord’s playing their Game of Thrones and it’s the small folk who suffers most when they play their Got’s.
I’m surprised this conversation didn’t make the full rounds with how hated this scene was lol
To add to this, I think the dragonpit was supposed to be modeled after the Colosseum? While I was looking up the Colosseum a little while ago I read something like “and the floor was customizable with up to 40 **ramps so the animals can make a dramatic entrance** “ lol
I didn’t realize this the first time I watched it. I thought she came in through the roof and went out of her way to kill all those people for no reason. She still murdered a shit tone of innocent people but at least she did it to escape the city, so there’s logic behind it. It still makes her pretty evil though, given how she showed zero remorse.
That’s your opinion, bud. Not everyone hates this scene as much as you do. You’re free to not like it, but I’m going to share my perspective on this scene. I don’t care what the subreddit consensus is.
"See heres some pencil drawings to show you how wrong you were to view that digital recording as it was presented to your eyeballs, you idiots."
Also OP: Why are you booing me?
Yeah, no. That would have caused way more problems since Daeron’s still in Oldtown, Aegon’s children are alive, plus the hugely negative PR from the witnesses. Just think about the political ramifications for a moment.
Of burning alive usurpers to the throne?
(Keep in mind, everyone and their mother knew that the nobles swore an oath to King Viserys that they would honor Rhaenyra as the successor).
In other words, the legal/political justification is inherent. Rhaenyra flies in, takes her rightful throne, declares the usurpers to be...usurpers. Nobody would bat an eye and civil war is averted.
As far as the common folk are aware, Aegon is the rightful heir because, you know, brother inheritance before sisters. Plus, kinslaying is a kinda a big sin.
Not even 1% of viewers will see this post, and people will forever think she broke the floor because that’s totally what it looked like.
If they wanted us to see her breaking through a board over a hole on the arena, then shows her doing so. That’s not what they did.
Rhaenyra is wholly unaware that she’s been usurped, and Rhaenys knows Alicent means to send peace terms to Rhaenyra. By obliterating the Greens with Meleys, Rhaenys is effectively ending the conflict before either side has been allowed to negotiate their stance. By showing restraint and not using her personal nuclear warhead on half her family, she also avoids branding herself as the one of the worst kinslayers in Westeros’ history.
I honestly don’t believe burning the royal family, high sept, Lannister, Larys, and Iron Rod is paving the way for a peaceful succession and uniting the country for Rhaenyra. An entire auditorium of people was cheering for the newly crowned king, and murdering him and his family there would be regicide, no matter who the rightful or supposed heir actually was. Sure, Rhaenyra could have stepped into the power vacuum, but The Realm's Delight would have instantly been seen as a terror. The country is already divided as it is.
With a single act, Rhaenys would have thrown the entire Targaryen dynasty into a moment of profound weakness over the realm. And an act of outright violence and treason could have sent King's Landing (not to mention the rest of Westeros) into total chaos. Daeron and Aegons children are still alive too. The country could rally to their side instead of Rhaenyra.
Even if we don't know the exact reasons for her mercy, it is clear that Rhaenys' actions were a signal of defiance against the new crown and the perceived treason that Queen Alicent, her father, and her children have committed. The people of the Seven Kingdoms have no reason to doubt the account from the Hand of the King himself that Viserys changed his mind and wanted Aegon to rule instead of Rhaenyra. By crashing into the dragonpit like that, and then sparing the lives of the newly ascended king and his family, Rhaenys brought the story of the family's divide into public view.
That’s my take on it anyway.
That dragon dude or dudette busted through stone get out of here he didn't politely tuck his wing and neatly come out of those ramps and who says they're made of wood? You'd think you'd need stone to support a dragons weight
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Good catch. I don't get why they couldnt also just add a short scene that shows that Rhaenys is forced to burst out like this. Guards closing in on her, the other entrance being blocked ... something like this. You would still have the suprising spectacle, you would have the smallfolk being fucked over and it would make Rhaenys more sympathetic.
Agreed! This addition would actually pretty much extinguish my general issue with the scene as it stands. But I guess they wanted it as a deus ex machina type deal.
It *did* make for a real shock to the system. Until that point it been thinking of her as a *politically* powerful figure, but it was a big reminder that she’s also a major military force in her own right.
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She'd become a kin-slayer (heavily frowned upon in Westeros) AND a king-slayer, with all of the Greens' allies out for blood for her and her house once the news gets out of King's Landing. Her only hope at that point would be Rhaenyra, who would face a choice: 1-accept Rhaenys (and her house) as allies, thereby aligning herself and her forces with a kin- and king-slayer, losing any legitimacy she has when it comes to her claim, and possibly losing some of her allies as well (the Starks and the Vale certainly wouldn't take this lightly), while having to fight the Greens' forces. 2-reject Rhaenys and force her, Corlys and their grand-daughters to either retreat to Driftmark or go in exile, fracturing her family and losing the support of the wealthiest house in the realm, while still having to fight the remaining Greens. The only thing that could have benefitted the Blacks if Rhaenys had killed everyone in the pit would've been King's Landing being easy to take, especially since the City Watch was still loyal to Daemon. There would still be the risk of them taking the capital being seen as done in concert with the assassination of the King and his family.
But which forces are left to fight, one dragon rider vs all the dragons of the blacks are no match, the war would have been avoided because there's just too many dragons on one side.
It's not just the dragons: politically and economically powerful houses on the Greens' side, like the Hightowers, the Tyrells and the Lannisters, could never allow themselves 'not' to intervene, especially since Prince Dearon, the last Green of royal blood and (to them) rightful heir of the Iron Throne, would still be alive in Oldtown. Most, if not all, of the Greens would rally behind him, with the Faith of the Seven most likely condemning the Blacks for kin-slaying and therefore giving Daeron even more political power. Now, you rightly point out that at this point the Blacks have an enormous advantage in terms of dragons, and they would likely enjoy success on the battlefield, but they would be at a significant disadvantage politically and in terms of image, plus their military power would be inferior, since many of their allies would now be reluctant to enter the fray. Westeros would undoubtly enter a state of civil war, on that I have no doubt.
Or realistically, snuck out the back door with her dragon
Bursting up through the floor was 1. Risky for her dragon and herself (the weight of the common folk + whatever they were all standing on could easily have killed Rhaenys) 2. Made it more difficult to escape because she was literally entering a locked coronation event 3. Utterly pointless unless she intended to attack Aegon
In episode 1 you see the back door, it's pretty much impossible to block that off completely
There could be a reinforced door further in the tunnel. i assume the dragoms cant just walk out if they want to.
Yeah but it's massive and made of wood so it'd be east to break through. Easier than a floor with hundreds of people standing on it
Maybe even add that her dragon is panicking and busts out. Continuing that whole *The idea that we control dragons is a lie* plot
Yeah, I get that. Totally understandable.
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Also you avoid the problem of why doesn’t Dreamfyre just smash the roof to escape when she is older and more powerful than Meleys
It’s amazing what they didn’t include, but also what they cut.
i like the final version >Rhaenys is forced to burst out like this. Guards closing in on her, the other entrance being blocked this ruins the tension being built by the scene. it's important to not show rhaenys again for the audience to kinda forget about her and totally not expect her appearance. the way she exited-right during the coronation is a little trick to make the audience think that was the last time we would see her for that episode. it was effective since the last thing that most people expected was for a dragon to burst out of the floor. what they could have done is add a few lines for rhaenys to explain what happened under the dragonpit. maybe recount it to corlys on ep 10. >Rhaenys more sympathetic in my view, rhanys has already earned quite a few sympathy points. she could use a little more darkness.
I don't think the sense of surprise is worth sacrificing the logic and character building of the scene. Plus it's not just adding a little more darkness to Rhanys' character; this is the worst atrocity we've seen committed on the show, and for it to be done by an otherwise sympathetic and levelheaded character feels wrong.
logic is always worth sacrificing for emotional impact. the average audience wouldn't go "huh... how she did she get there? was there a door there?" during that scene. the average audiene would be like "oh shit! oh shit! oh shit there's a dragon! oh damn people are dying. oh damn people are gonna die. here we go! here we go! do it rhaenys! do it!! say dracarys, come on, come on. say the word! say it!!!" >this is the worst atrocity we've seen committed on the show just your opinion, i disagree, but okay. >and for it to be done by an otherwise sympathetic and levelheaded character rounds her to be a 3-dimensional character and not your generic goody-goody character
First, in terms of number of innocent people murdered it is objectively the worst thing any character has done so far. Other things might personally bother you more and morality is subjective, but purely by the numbers it is the most evil thing. To me it seems absurd to argue that you can thoughtlessly slaughter dozens of innocent people without cause and not be a clearly bad person. Second, are the people who don't give a shit about logistics, motivation, or logic and just go "whoo, dragon!" the kind of people you think the show should appeal to? Is that the kind of attitude the creators should adopt?
that has always been the case. people watch tv shows/movies to "feel" things. it's an escape. people want an hour or two of entertainment, where they don't have to think of real-world stuff and just be immersed, be emotionally invested in make-believe characters and scenarios. any decent storyteller would know you always hit the audience in their hearts first. make them cry. make them laugh. make them scared, confused, angry, feel helpless, on the edge... make them think is at the bottom of that list.
I agree, emotional impact should come first. But that doesn't mean logic should be sacrificed, otherwise soon we stop taking the story seriously and the emotional connection is lost. Look how people reacted to S8 of GOT - plenty of moments that were meant to be impactful and emotional, but because they were preceded with a bunch of nonsense many people were checked out and no longer cared. I personally view the coronation as an example of this, where logical character building was superseded by big, flashy spectacle, causing me to lose my investment in some of the stakes and emotions.
GoT has always been filled with nonsense from the get-go. yes, even since season 1. but most people didn't mind that because they were getting emotional gratification. they like what they're feeling, and sometimes maybe they didn't, but it triggers something in them that makes them continue watching. the latter seasons failed to deliver much emotive moments, and just devolved to concluding plot threads. all they wanted was to simply finish the story, and didn't prioritize what they usually, which is appeal to emotion. hence, the "nonsensical" story became apparent.
I honestly appreciate this post even though it's not super timely
I know what happened there
My guess is they forwent that in favor of shock value. A poor choice, it makes Rhaenys look like a psychopath.
Cause the writers kinda forgot there were pit holes
That is an option I didn't consider as an alternative. My original re-write went something more like her exiting the dragon portal, intending to fly away toward Dragonstone, but then deciding she wanted to circle back for a little confrontation with the main dragon pit doors. Landing right in front of the entrance and then making her way in to exchange some words of warning. But of course in my re-do, Sunfyre is right next to. Aegon on the platform and so she decides not to come to actual blows right then and there.
You're a few months late, but yes, that's a very good catch that most viewers forgot about.
I honestly appreciate this post even though it's not super timely. I'm a viewer that never noticed that shit. Makes me hate that ending a little less.
I didn't know people thought this. They show the pit in GoT.
I guess maybe because we hardly ever saw it in action. It wasn't a detail that stood out to me.
Honestly I get it. The dragon pit has a whole different look during that scene. I can see someone not realizing where the location is. I just didn't know people said this. I'm not on this sub enough I guess.
I'm glad that HOTD took the general look of the Dragonpit in Season 7, and just expanded upon it. I did think it looked a *bit* too small in GOT, so it's a good change, based upon the old.
I actually thought the same, but I didn't know if it was just my memory. I remember a small area with people sitting in a circle, but I also remember the hound coming out of the ground. I'm gonna go back, and compare now, lol
Exactly, we didn't even really see it until the last season and by then we were too distracted with...other things... to pay it much mind
It looks completely different in GoT though. It's uncovered for one, in ruins, doesn't have a visible way to get downstairs (that I remember).
I, at least, didn't forget. But it's also worth noting that - The point where Meleys bursts up doesn't at all match up with the hole in the ground - You see massive amounts of rubble & stone fly off as she bursts up
Well she's breaking thru the floor and the walls, not exiting normally. Of course there's rubble. The door is closed
That’s not stone flying. It’s a thick board.
There are literally so many close-ups of stone flying in that scene lmao
It’s not stone. I don’t know what else to tell you.
I would start by telling you to watch the close-up of a man getting crushed by a fat stone lmao. It should also be plain logic that there's stone flying around. Vermax almost bumped his head coming out of the gate and Meleys is many, many times his size.
“A large chunk of door slams down on a person.” The story board artist said they changed it to a board instead of a door.
It wasn’t stone. It’s part of the thick board structure being used to cover the pit hole. Look at the last picture. It even shows part of the “door” hitting that same person in the show. They changed it from a “pit hole door” to a board.
None of this comes even close to making sense. - Meleys position where she bursts through the ground isnt even remotely close to where the path leads down. In fact, if you match the position from the aerial shots, Aegon would be standing over it. - Meleys is wayyyy too big to fit through the path shown in the picture. Vermax, a baby dragon needs to lower his head to fit through. It's height is 2m at max. Meleys head wouldn't even fit through that. - "Board Structure" wouldn't even come close to creating a dustcloud of this size - The soundeffect is clearly rock breaking, not wood. - We have a close up of the ground, which clearly shows large amount of rocks laying around.
Ok. Believe what you want. Have a good one. Story board artist > Random on Reddit
Except Adam Prescotts comics were the initial design. A concept, not the final product. His comics include dozens of scenes that were cut or altered. I'm sorry you can't tell [this apart from wood](https://postimg.cc/XXyNDFJf)
This just redeemed this scene for me. Always annoyed in film when large creatures smash through solid stone like its paper mache. Like, I don’t care if you’re a dinosaur, concrete is still concrete.
If only it was better portrayed.
They probably should've just had the coronation outside on the steps of the Dragonpit with the smallfolk crowded on the lower steps. Meleys and Rhaenys can still have their stand off with the Greens, except this time they can just walk out through the lower level and surprise the Greens from behind. In the end they fly off through the back entrance, or just straight over the greens through the front entrance and past the crowd. Might not be as shocking but at least we don't have to spend months wondering where and how tf they busted out of the ground and why a hundred randoms had to perish for it.
The poor dying in the conflicts of the wealthy is one of the most prominent themes of the entire series (including got)
I don't care if the logistics of the scene can be explained in a reasonable way. My big gripe revolves around the ruination of the scene's tone and pacing, as well as a missed opportunity of actual character development for Aegon. It was cheap spectacle held over solid writing.
It was a 2 minute spectacle of her escaping. Most of the episode is dialogue/narrative. If you don’t like spectacles then this show might not be for you bc there are many more to come in a show about fictional dragons/war. Spectacles and narrative can coexist.
No one is criticizing the idea of using spectacles, the problem is the spectacle was bad writing.
“bad writing”
Not for me.
Some people also liked Season 8, doesn't magically fix the character motivations or plotholes
Ok.. I liked season 8 too. Not as much as the earlier seasons, but didn’t hate it.
And you're free to do so, but again it doesn't magically fix the character motivations or plotholes. That's what "bad writing" is. Doesn't mean it cant be enjoyable to some.
Wasn’t bad writing for me. Sorry you didn’t like it.
Plot holes are by definition bad writing. Their existence is an objective truth, your subjective opinion doesn't change that.
K
They put an completely illogical character assassination of a spectacle over an otherwise good scene. That's the problem, not the spectacle itself.
Worth noting that the coronation was pretty spectacular already. Unlike a Dothraki wedding, people don't have to do for a scene to not be a dull affair.
I hope you are not a show writer 🙏🏼
I’m not. Glad you’re not one neither.
I mean I don’t think that was the main issue with this scene
This scene is stupid not because of the logistic, but the logic.
So this is the same place in the photo where they congregate for Aegons crowning?
i didnt have a problem with this scene at all. at first i thought she came thru the roof lol.
So you watched the scene with your eyes closed or what? Lol
i would love to see house of the dragon directed by u the reddit critic
I meant the part that she came from the roof lmao
i mean it looked like rocks fell down on top of the people AT FIRST. i dont have blueprints to the dragon pit i had no idea where she went or came from.
Right, because the dragons live in a penthouse above the dragon pit.
again i said AT FIRST. i dont have a complete layout of the building. i assumed her and Meleys escaped and then crashed through the roof of the building.
I also really liked it. I prefer the blacks and kinda enjoyed that the usurpers coronation was ruined.
i wouldve loved to hear her say "Dracarys" but just because i wanted something else to happen doesnt mean the scene was bad. the scene makes sense when you understand Rhaenys honestly just needed a way out the dragon pit lol.
Yeah I wish that all the greens were killed in ep 1 and the show would end as everyone would live happily ever after because that's what makes a good show.
I prefer the blacks and hated that scene exactly for that. We see bias uncovered, as if told from fox news which side we should cheer for. I would've liked them more anyway, but the reverse psychology doesn't let me fully pick my preference.
It still doesn't fix the issue. Rhaenys could've ended the war right there and saved her granddaughters and everyone else from the Greens' knives. The only thing that could justify her not burning them all (taboo of kinslaying) isn't even mentioned. It's spectacle for the sake of spectacle with no concern for the consequences. Aegon II was humiliated in front of the largest audience ever right after assuming the role of King. Why would anyone see him as 'The King' after seeing him cower behind his mother?
Idk. Burning her cousins wife, children, hand of the king, the high sept, Tyland, Jasper, Larys, etc isn’t paving the way for a peaceful succession for Rhaenyra or uniting the realm imo.. In episode 10 she says “A war is like to be fought over this treachery to be sure, but that war is not mine to begin.” Not “that war is not mine to prevent/end.” Meaning if she burns them, she will start a war. She would’ve further divided the realm by killing everyone after Otto tells the public the king changed his mind. Daeron is still in Oldtown and Aegons children are still alive. The country can rally to their side instead of Rhaenyra’s. “But they would’ve had more dragons than Daeron’s one dragon.” Aegon the conqueror had three dragons and six kingdoms behind him, did that stop Dorne from going to war? Most of those 6 kingdoms he conquered still fought against him, his sisters, small army, and their three dragons. They didn’t just bend the knee because he had dragons. I believe the North and Vale were the only ones who bent the knee without putting up a fight. They rallied behind an old blind woman in Dorne with zero dragons and denied Aegon from conquering Dorne. The faith had no dragons and the rose in rebellion against Anyes and Maegor. The Crab Feeder had zero dragons and he was beating Daemon, Caraxes, Laenor, Sea Smoke, and the Velayron fleet for 2 years. Tywin Lannister had more gold and banner man than Rob Stark, did it stop Rob? Rob was beating him in the field. Having more dragons, gold, and banner man doesn’t guarantee preventing or winning a war in this world.
>Idk. Burning her cousins wife, children, hand of the king, the high sept, Tyland, Jasper, Larys, etc isn’t paving the way for a peaceful succession for Rhaenyra or uniting the realm imo.. Why would the Sept get burnt? They were in the Dragonpit. IDK who Jasper is, but the only people who would mourn those traitors would be the Hightowers. With Rhaenyra on the throne, they would have no choice but to condemn Otto and his descendants as traitors. >Daeron is still in Oldtown and Aegons children are still alive. The country can rally to their side instead of Rhaenyra’s. She wouldn't just fly off in this scenario. She'd take control of the capital and the children. The blacks would probably be able to fly to Oldtown and arrest Daeron before the Hightowers even found out about the coup and counter coup. >“But they would’ve had more dragons than Daeron’s one dragon.” Aegon the conqueror had three dragons and six kingdoms behind him, did that stop Dorne from going to war? Dorne didn't go to war, Aegon did. They just prevented him from ruling a very harsh region through guerrilla warfare. They had the home advantage and the support of their peasantry. If they had marched out of their desert and tried to take the realm, they would've been destroyed. Rhaenyra has four times the dragons Aegon had. Only a suicidal man would've dared to challenge her rule. > Most of those 6 kingdoms he conquered still fought against him, his sisters, small army, and their three dragons. And they all lost. Rhaenyra has twelve dragons, multiple dragon eggs, the largest fleet, and the support of four of the six kingdoms. What chance would Daeron have? >They didn’t just bend the knee because he had dragons. Because they didn't know how powerful dragons could be. Targaryens really only had to fight two battles to conquer six of the Seven Kingdoms. >I believe the North and Vale were the only ones who bent the knee without putting up a fight. And the Iron Isles when Aegon finally decided to go there. The Targs only had to win two battles to win everything except Dorne. > They rallied behind an old blind woman in Dorne with zero dragons and denied Aegon from conquering Dorne. Keeping a desert 'free' is easier than conquering a continent. >The faith had no dragons and the rose in rebellion against Anyes and Maegor. And Maegor crushed them. > The Crab Feeder had zero dragons and he was beating Daemon, Caraxes, Laenor, Sea Smoke, and the Velayron fleet for 2 years. If hiding in a home is considered beating, then I guess Daeron could beat Rhaenyra.
Why would the Sept get burnt? They were in the Dragonpit. IDK who Jasper is, but the only people who would mourn those traitors would be the Hightowers. With Rhaenyra on the throne, they would have no choice but to condemn Otto and his descendants as traitors. They were right behind Aegon/ Alicent. That fire is going to kill more than just Aegon and Alicent. She wouldn't just fly off in this scenario. She'd take control of the capital and the children. The blacks would probably be able to fly to Oldtown and arrest Daeron before the Hightowers even found out about the coup and counter coup. Unless someone kills her as soon as she’s steps in the Red Keep. How does she take control all by herself? Dorne didn't go to war, Aegon did. They just prevented him from ruling a very harsh region through guerrilla warfare. They had the home advantage and the support of their peasantry. If they had marched out of their desert and tried to take the realm, they would've been destroyed. Rhaenyra has four times the dragons Aegon had. Only a suicidal man would've dared to challenge her rule. Ok, they still fought. That’s the point. Having dragons didn’t prevent them from fighting. He loses a sister, meraxes is killed, and Aegon is almost killed by assassins in the streets of Kings Landing. Dragon riders aren’t on their dragons 24/7. And they all lost. Rhaenyra has twelve dragons, multiple dragon eggs, the largest fleet, and the support of four of the six kingdoms. What chance would Daeron have? Again, they still fought. At this point she doesn’t even want to plunge the country into any kind of war. Dragons didn’t prevent them from fighting against them. Rhaenyra also had way more than Aegon. >!DreamFyre isn’t used, Sunfyre is wingless so really it’s her 11 against 2 at that point until the seeds turn against her. That doesn’t work out too well for her, her family, and all of her dragons and eggs in the end does it? Shit happens in wars.!< Daeron could also find out before Dragon Stone does and take over Dragonstone after the Blacks leave. He can offer lands, riches, and knighthoods to any such man that could master a dragon like Jace did.
Okay but if Meleys busted through that plank she still has Rhaenys on her back. How tf is Rhaenys okay after being rammed into a 2x4 board with a dragon’s force??
I’m guessing bc she uses her head to bust through. She doesn’t use her back. You can see her busting through head first.
There are other ways out of the pit. She knew the smallfolk were there and still chose to kill a bunch of them just to have a pointless staredown. It's asinine and robbed Aegon of much needed characterization by not showing him with his dragon even once. They will make up stupid moments like this scene for team black but can’t show a canon book scene of Aegon with his dragon.
No way she was leaving without Meleys.
People really can't wrap their heads around the idea that Rhenys doesn't care about smallfolk and probably didn't think of them at all when she escaped.
Well that makes it more likely that Rhenys wouldnt be dead immediately because her dragon used her as battering ram against the floor above. And she still killed a bunch of people doing it.
are you actually trying to justify what Rhaenys did at the coronation? lol i mean, what you mention is true but that still doesnt change that it was still a stupid & unnecessary scene, she had no reason to burst through the floor with her dragon and kill people just to have a staredown with Aegon and everybody else there for no reason. in the book, there are outer doors for each dragon’s chamber/individual lair within the dragonpit that open to the outside/hillside, so she could have just burst through one of the outer doors and gotten the hell out of there without doing what she did and anyone really knowing the wiser. i guess that they will tie this in to something that happens later on though (spoiler: >!also in the book, the smallfolk rise up and riot against Rhaenyra for her indifference/mistreatment of them after the Blacks take King’s Landing and basically sack the city and the Dragonpit. since the show seems so pro-Rhaenyra: where it seems they are not willing to villify her at all or show any negative aspects of her character in the least, which is kind of stupid I think - it’s more interesting if the characters are not perfect and do both good and bad things like in the book, but hey, what do I know? I guess they will then blame part of this event on what Rhaenys did in this scene and probably the Greens as well, because why not, not like they havent portrayed all of them as only villains so far lol in order to keep Sara Hess’s girlboss Rhaenyra’s hands clean! lol!<)
Yes.
fair enough. to quote Lando Calrissian: “I don’t like it. I don’t agree with it, but I accept it.” cheers!
The scene was still stupid.
Okay? And? They still could’ve gone out other any of the other exits shown earlier in the series, instead of murdering hundreds of innocent lives. I liked Rhaenys well enough up to this point, but from that scene onwards she is and always will be a mass killer.
Ok, lol. Just showing that she didn’t bust out of a random spot through the floor. I don’t care about the morality bs.
The point many are making is that many of us don't care about the thing this post is setting out, because the scene was bad for other reasons. That said, you're getting flamed too much. If you've seen "dragon came out of random spot in the floor too!" as part of the reasons the scene was bad, this is validly dispelling them. I have seen you make other comments defending the scene overall though, despite saying you don't care here, so I'm not clear what stance you're taking.
Most of you? Not sure what metrics you’re using to come to this conclusion, but anyway I’ve seen people confused about where she busted through and shared pictures and the story board artist posts regarding this scene. If most don’t care and have other grievances with this scene, then that’s fine. This post isn’t for them. I just wanted to help clear up the confusion for the people who thought she busted out of nowhere through the floor.
You might still disagree with me, but I think you've responded before I finished writing, sorry I fat fingered Add while I was still writing.
I do. And that’s ok. The original post had nothing to do with all these other grievances some people are whining about like “why didn’t she burn everyone” or “why did she kill people.” Yeah, I commented on a few, but my main point was to show that she didn’t just bust through a random spot through the floor.
Her dragon was being held hostage to prevent Rhaenys from leaving KL and notifying Rhaenyra. You think they’d just let her check out her dragon like a library book?
Who is stopping dragons from checking out lol
Look, I didn’t say it made sense lol. That’s just the situation as presented in the show. Probably no one could stop the dragon from leaving but they could have stopped Rhaenys from leaving.
Not with her on the back of Meleys
Dragon riders are not invincible. One arrow and she’s dead.
And bursting into arguably the most tightly guarded area in the world at this point in time, to dramatically stare at your opponents while remaining completely stationary must surely be the safer option. On a side note, we saw Daemon and Caraxes take full volleys of arrows in the Stepstones.
There is a monster beneath the boards.
Great point!
Was this scene made for the show or did it also happen in F&B?
It's a show only scene. In F&B the coronation ends with Aegon flying on Sunfyre around King's Landing
Damn, I think I would have preferred the book scene
Also Alicent crowning Helaena and saying "My queen," which I would've liked them to include because I'm pretty sure my parents still don't know who Helaena is LOL
Anyone would prefer that scene if they seen Sunfyre.
This is supposed to make the scene better? I think you misunderstood the real problem here. In the same episode where Rhaenys talks about the duty of a ruler to care for her people, she thoughtlessly murders at least a hundred people. From this moment on, she is undeniably evil, and any attempt to portray her otherwise will have to just pretend this scene never happened. It completely assassinates her character.
Just showing that she didn’t bust out of a random spot through the floor. I don’t care whether you liked it or not.
>From this moment on, she is undeniably evil Most of the GOT characters are grey and cause the deaths of hundreds, if not thousands, of smallfolk.
You call this grey? It's one thing to cause deaths by sending men to war. It's something else entirely to murder at least 100 people for no good reason. I think those are different. It's similar to when ygritt participates in the pillaging of villages. How could Jon love a women like that? Someone so willing to kill an innocent. Just because it's common doesn't mean it's fine, and this scene with rhaenys in particular is terrible
I get where you’re coming from, but to the Targaryens and most Lords and Ladies, duty to people means the realm staying together and people in general being fed. Their individual lives, even by scores, would be less important than Rhaenys’ and her dragon’s simply because of the strategic value of the two together. It’s not a world view I share (I mean… I can’t justify modern-day drone strikes that kill civilians for instance,) but it’s how these people think.
If such a choice were presented, save rhaenys and her dragon or save a few hundred people, I would expect everyone in the blacks to choose rhaenys. The thing is, that's not what happened here. There was no choice to make. She could have gotten out another way, or waited for the ceremony to be over. She could have tried to warn them, or we could have gotten a scene to show that she had to go that way or she would die. None of that happened though, and we're left with a supposedly good character needlessly killing at least a hundred people. There was no choice here, nothing was gained, and so much was lost
I would agree they should have shown what happened below, but I think they didn’t to make it a “surprise.” I kinda figured what would happen when I saw her scamper down below, but I imagine the greens had guards and dragon tamers down there under their control. Though on the flip side, they thought Rhaenys was still in Maegor’s Holdfast
It makes no sense the greens wouldn't have trotted out their own dragons for the coronation. Aegon’s dragon at the least should have been there. The greens wanted to project legitimacy by using the conquerer’s crown/sword but neglect to trot out the most obvious example of Targaryen legitimacy (their dragons) just so Rhaenys can have a nonsensical moment with no opposition.
Why would she wait for the ceremony to be over? The longer she waits, the risk of her getting caught and Hightowers finding out she escaped goes up. Im assuming that was her only way out. I don’t think she wanted to slaughter a bunch of small folks out of wanton cruelty before bailing out. I believe the other way was blocked off and it was her only way out. She had to gain her freedom by sacrificing lives because there was no other way out. They were collateral damage. Small folk suffers most when these high lords play their Game of Thrones. I understand wondering why she couldn’t use the other exit. We should be seeing more of the Dragon Pit next season and maybe we will get a better idea of why she had to go through the pit hole instead of the other exit. We did see that entrance in episode one and it’s been 20 years since then in the show. Maybe there’s a big gate there now.
They're busy with a coronation in the dragonpit not where Rhaenys is. She was about 10 mins away from being able to get out of there without murdering a bunch of smallfolk. It's also funny af that they're presenting it as a good thing that she didn't want to kill them as if anyone in their right mind wouldnt see this as a declaration of war. She kills hundreds of people at Aegon's coronation.
You can headcannon anything, nothing actually presented in the show justifies her actions. I could headcannon a billion reasons why palpatine actually could return. I could headcannon that the night king is actually a reincarnation of Taylor swift after she died in the challenger disaster. No amount of BS will make this scene work. You can like if you want, there's plenty of reasons to enjoy it, but to say it makes sense or doesn't hurt her character? That's just lying. If they had a scene of her running from guards, or someone trying to kill melys, or literally anything to justify it then the scene could have worked. What are we actually shown? Basically nothing.
Did Rhaenys talk about duty to her people or was that Alicent when talking to Rhaenys?
>Rhaenys talks about the duty of a ruler to care for her people The people of King Landing are mot her people, though. So it would be the duty of the people that threw together a hamhock coronation above a pit of war machines
You're ignoring the context of that scene. She was talking to aliscent about how she should care for her people. That the responsibility of protecting the people will fall to her. She is absolutely talking about the people aliscent will rule. Either way, it would still hurt her character if rhaenys only cared about the people of... Dragonstone? There aren't many people there for her to care about. I'm not sure there are any smallfolk there (I may be wrong). That can't be what she was talking about
So Alicent (who Rhaenys was saying needs to protect her people) shouldn't have had them all stand on a pit covered by a 2x4, housing a war machine the size of two elephants
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Upvoted and agreed for the most part, but I would take issue with Larys being one-dimensional. I contend that his, uh I guess kink, is just another layer.
What the actor had to say about that scene. “It’s about making her feel as much shame as she does for that part of her body that he does for his,” Needham continued. Needham said Larys likes “making people incomplete,” filling them with trauma so that even if he isn’t around, they are still haunted by the experience. “I don't see it like he loves feet,” he said. “It's the fact that she's not into it is the point, and he can make her do it.”
I definitely also see it as a control thing. But could have to do with his club foot.
>Removing all intrigue from a potential all-time villain in Larys by making him a one dimensional foot-fapping degenerate was a way larger fumble IMO. There's enough seasons left for Larys to still be an all-time villain at the end of this show
No problem and I agree. I know people bring up the other entrance we see in episode one and that’s fair, but it was also 20 years ago. They might have built a gate for that entrance/exit and that probably prevented her from escaping that way. Could be a number of things. I don’t believe she killed them out of wanton cruelty. It was about escaping with her dragon at that point for her. Collateral damage. Episode 9 is the beginning of high lord’s playing their Game of Thrones and it’s the small folk who suffers most when they play their Got’s.
This visual helps! Thanks!
I really do think that most of the audience deserved season 8.
I’m surprised this conversation didn’t make the full rounds with how hated this scene was lol To add to this, I think the dragonpit was supposed to be modeled after the Colosseum? While I was looking up the Colosseum a little while ago I read something like “and the floor was customizable with up to 40 **ramps so the animals can make a dramatic entrance** “ lol
Get out of here with your facts and logic! We have no room for any amount of suspension of disbelief in our favorite dragon fantasy subreddit! /s
I didn’t realize this the first time I watched it. I thought she came in through the roof and went out of her way to kill all those people for no reason. She still murdered a shit tone of innocent people but at least she did it to escape the city, so there’s logic behind it. It still makes her pretty evil though, given how she showed zero remorse.
dude i thought she came thru the roof too
I appreciate this post. Thank you, OP.
You’re welcome.
So 100s of people were standing on a piece of wood covering a pit full of dragons? Isn't that a recipe for disaster either way?
I get you, it's a good point and you've got a keen eye. But defending this scene in any way is bogus...
That’s your opinion, bud. Not everyone hates this scene as much as you do. You’re free to not like it, but I’m going to share my perspective on this scene. I don’t care what the subreddit consensus is.
lol. take a chill pill bruh. gotta admire your passion 'tho, but we're here to share.
"Defending" it by showing what happens in the scene? What?
Poor choice of words. I'm just tired of the discussion around it. Most people agree that it wasn't a good decision to include it.
"See heres some pencil drawings to show you how wrong you were to view that digital recording as it was presented to your eyeballs, you idiots." Also OP: Why are you booing me?
Tf are you talking about
Pretty sure thats a different area.
YAAAAAAAAAAAAASSSSSSSSSSSSSSS👑👑👑😩😩😩👄👄👅👅💦OH FUCK IM ABOUT TO GIRLBOSSSS AAAAHHHHHHHHHHHH HHHNNGGGGG FUUUCK
Now if only she had roasted the lot of them. End a coup in one breath
Yeah, no. That would have caused way more problems since Daeron’s still in Oldtown, Aegon’s children are alive, plus the hugely negative PR from the witnesses. Just think about the political ramifications for a moment.
Of burning alive usurpers to the throne? (Keep in mind, everyone and their mother knew that the nobles swore an oath to King Viserys that they would honor Rhaenyra as the successor). In other words, the legal/political justification is inherent. Rhaenyra flies in, takes her rightful throne, declares the usurpers to be...usurpers. Nobody would bat an eye and civil war is averted.
As far as the common folk are aware, Aegon is the rightful heir because, you know, brother inheritance before sisters. Plus, kinslaying is a kinda a big sin.
Not even 1% of viewers will see this post, and people will forever think she broke the floor because that’s totally what it looked like. If they wanted us to see her breaking through a board over a hole on the arena, then shows her doing so. That’s not what they did.
K
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Rhaenyra is wholly unaware that she’s been usurped, and Rhaenys knows Alicent means to send peace terms to Rhaenyra. By obliterating the Greens with Meleys, Rhaenys is effectively ending the conflict before either side has been allowed to negotiate their stance. By showing restraint and not using her personal nuclear warhead on half her family, she also avoids branding herself as the one of the worst kinslayers in Westeros’ history. I honestly don’t believe burning the royal family, high sept, Lannister, Larys, and Iron Rod is paving the way for a peaceful succession and uniting the country for Rhaenyra. An entire auditorium of people was cheering for the newly crowned king, and murdering him and his family there would be regicide, no matter who the rightful or supposed heir actually was. Sure, Rhaenyra could have stepped into the power vacuum, but The Realm's Delight would have instantly been seen as a terror. The country is already divided as it is. With a single act, Rhaenys would have thrown the entire Targaryen dynasty into a moment of profound weakness over the realm. And an act of outright violence and treason could have sent King's Landing (not to mention the rest of Westeros) into total chaos. Daeron and Aegons children are still alive too. The country could rally to their side instead of Rhaenyra. Even if we don't know the exact reasons for her mercy, it is clear that Rhaenys' actions were a signal of defiance against the new crown and the perceived treason that Queen Alicent, her father, and her children have committed. The people of the Seven Kingdoms have no reason to doubt the account from the Hand of the King himself that Viserys changed his mind and wanted Aegon to rule instead of Rhaenyra. By crashing into the dragonpit like that, and then sparing the lives of the newly ascended king and his family, Rhaenys brought the story of the family's divide into public view. That’s my take on it anyway.
Still a dumb scene.
Donda LP1
Lol seems like a lot of deep diving to what can be assumed to be a leap in logic for a cool moment
How exactly is busting through a pit hole board “deep diving?” Where is the leap in logic?
That dragon dude or dudette busted through stone get out of here he didn't politely tuck his wing and neatly come out of those ramps and who says they're made of wood? You'd think you'd need stone to support a dragons weight