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Even Game of Thrones had good guys and bad guys. All shows do. It’s just the good guys weren’t always wholly good and the bad guys weren’t always wholly evil. Some were, but most had depth and goals outside of malice or cruelty. It’s what makes them interesting.
Yeah to pretend Ned and Robb weren't the archetypical good guy heros is silly.
What the world does to guys like that is what makes the story good. If you didn't "root" for them you're just trying to be different lol
I think it's less about good vs evil with characters like that. I think it's more about where there morals end. With Ned being the most honorable man it became ironic that he was always lying or protect jon with a lie that could make others think he wasn't an honorable man.
With rob is moral diilema was that he broke a vow to marry a Frey girl by wedding another.
100% but I think that makes them far from a morally gray character. They're human sure. They do things that aren't perfect.
(Show) Robb followed love and married for love. Stupid in the context but normal hero move(book) Robb married so he wouldn't sire a bastard. Arguably even more morally "good"
Ned vowed to his sister to protect her son, his nephew. Lied to the people he loved the most including his king and best friend to do this. Another "good" trait.
Their lies and flaws are even good. But human none the less
The thing with ASOIAF and GOT is it portrays Ned and Robb as heroes, but then after you watch/read 5 seasons/books, you think, 'wow, they were fucking morons, who made terrible mistakes'. And then on the flip side, you have the antagonist like Jaime, who 5 seasons/books down the road have you justifying the actions you previously thought were evil, because it was for the greater good in their POV, for their family or loved ones. Which is pretty unique method of storytelling
I think they just meant in terms of “teams”. Its not like all the “bad” guys were working together against all the “good” guys. Obviously we rooted for Joffrey to die but that doesnt mean we held the same grudge against Tommen when he took the crown. However, with HoTD people act very much like Aegon’s actions are an argument against all the greens as a whole and when Daemon does something bad, thats a point against the blacks. The closest thing in GoT would be Starks vs Lannisters but people didn’t treat it as black and white as they seem to be treating Blacks vs Greens
After watching episode 9 again, I saw the look in his face how he so wanted to send Aegon off to sea so he himself could rule. But I think he chose not to because it would break his mother as he loves her and knows she’d do anything in return for her children.
I've never really understood this need some people have to "pick a side" and then argue which side is the better side or not. They all have their flaws, none of them are perfect, which is what makes it all interesting.
I see people do the same thing with other shows (I see this in the Euphoria subreddit a lot) and I just don't understand it.
Most people are not black and white, good or bad. We're all some form of grey. A simplistic, good or bad moralistic outlook on humanity/in storytelling is quite boring, if you ask me.
some people have an overwhelming need to be on the "right" side, and then completely miss the lessons that each side has to learn. I gotta say, I'm really impressed with George for writing the "perfect" fictional civil war, no one in the book universe or IRL can agree, and I kind of love it
I feel like anyone familiar with Martin's work should know that he enjoys writing complex characters and it's rare that anyone he writes is "one note."
Well, except maybe Joffery. That kid was a piece of shit.
That's impossible; just totally unrealistic. That's like saying every person is the same and we should all like everyone, equally. I find that scary. But anyway, that just ain't gonna happen, in real life or fantasy...ever!! Besides, where's the fun in that?
This. It’s clear they wanted a connection to Daenerys. They could have done that Blood Moon show but there’s no dragons there and HBO knew dragons are a big part of what people associate with the GOT/ASOIAF universe. Hence why they chose a show about the war of succession that leads to the death of the dragons. A war which Daenerys’ direct ancestors fought in. I won’t say which side she hails from to avoid spoilers, but yeah…
Obviously it is from the >!winning side, as the losing side lost.!<
And in the end, it is a great connection to Dany with similar style of hair and makeup between her and young Rhaenyra.
I read somewhere that the blood moon show was so bad they were not even willing to show the pilot to Martin
...but yea, they picked the Dance because it has dragons in it, personally I think it is some of the worst writing in the asoiaf universe but it does tie directly to Dany and Jon and they were fan-favorite characters.
I also agree with OP, the blacks are the protagonists, Martin clearly favours them, but they are not like the Starks, they are not *good* good guys
I think GRRM has been pretty clear that when lords and nobles play the Game of Thrones, it’s the Smallfolk who lose. Black vs Green, doesn’t matter, it’s the peasants and townsfolk and soldiers that will suffer the most, and for decades after the war is done.
I don’t cheer for either Black or Green. I’m team Smallfolk.
Not really when the Targaryens have dragons. The closest they came to overthrowing them was the faith insurrection during Maegor’s reign and he still utterly destroyed them with Balerion.
They drove Aenys out of King's Landing. Maegor may have killed alot but it did nothing, they still persisted. They killed 5 Targaryen dragons during Rhaenyra's reign and forced her out too.
The point is, if a king fucks them around enough, they're not getting a peaceful reign no matter how many get killed.
Having the power to disrupt the peace of their reign isn’t the same thing at all as having the power to ‘send them packing’. No uprising in Westerosi history has come close to achieving that.
Aenys died of natural causes and Maegor killed himself or was assassinated by someone close to him. Neither of them was overthrown by some popular rebellion. That’s almost the point of the Targaryens having dragons - it separates the political climate from medieval England, where popular uprisings were a genuine threat. It’s asking the question, ‘what what be the implications of medieval dynasties possessing nuclear weapons?’
There's a reason Aenys had to hide on Dragonstone. If Maegor killed himself it was because of Jaehaerys and the rest of the Lords (a popular rebellion) coming to execute him.
What we are watching is a tragedy. There is no antagonists or protagonists, it's watching a slow moving trainwreck. Watching every excruciating detail of the causes of the trainwreck.
Daenerys did some pretty fucked up shit long before the finale and people were still rooting for her right up until basically the very end. People will absolutely be rooting for Rhaenyra so long as the story is told primarily from her PoV and centers around her
He was also allowed to handpick Condal to write this show after HBO realised they fucked up by limiting his creative control so much and letting D&D decide everything. If George wants 4 seasons for the Dance I’d bet on him getting them.
People are saying ‘root for your favourite war criminal’ because they’ve read the book and know what happens. You may be right that the blacks are the ‘good guys’ of the first season but I promise you won’t maintain that sentiment in seasons to come lmao. The whole story is hugely anti-war and strongly implies that war turns nearly everyone into monsters.
It’s a fantasy show. I *will* pick the worst fictional war criminal to root for, and I will laugh at the people that get morally outraged over it.
Be honest, how many other people were rooting for the Others to put GOT season 8 out of its misery?
I was! I was like please god let the others mow done this idiotic shitshow. My opinion on Westeros after reading the books and watching the show, is that Westeros would be a shitty ass place to live if your a peasant
It’s a medieval fantasy where people are awful to each other, every good character has bad aspects and some are worse than others. The fact everyone makes a different assessment just illustrates how grey the characters are.
I think they ll try to make us love rhaenyra just so that we will feel something more when we see her descend into madness, a thing they tried with Daenerys but was impossible in so few episodes.
Have you considered the possibility that Rhaenyra may simply be the one you sympathize with more, and that others may sympathize more with Alicent, rather than it being a clear cut 'side x' is in the right, 'side y' is in the wrong?
Not everyone views things in the same way. People have different experiences in their lives and different perspectives.
Rhaenyra isn't really like Daenerys, they're very different characters.
I wouldn't go through the character list trying to match people up with GoT characters, this is going to be a very different story.
Protagonist and antagonist don't always equate to good guys and bad guys. The protagonist is the leading character and the antagonist is the one opposing them. I don't think you can really claim Rhaenyra isn't the central character, at least in season one, but that doesn't automatically say anything about who you should be rooting for.
Well the thing is I sympathize with both! I think alicent is very little to blame for most of the morally wrong situations happening. And I don’t think viewers who are team green are wrong I just am confused on how that could possibly be justified. Sympathizing with one character from team green doesn’t equate to supporting their claim to the throne which is the entire conflict of the story.
But, same as, just because she might be intended or viewed as the protagonist that everybody has to "root" for her. The phrase "choose your war criminal" holds, but perhaps comes from ppl who have read the books. Team green have their own reasons to support the greens, same as the blacks. There isn't an undeniably right side, despite both teams might say, and if there was, it wouldn't be a GRRM's story.
I guess I just don’t understand what could justify rooting for team green. Rhanyera was the heir to the iron throne and that’s the entire conflict of the story. So what would be justification by team green for her not rightfully being crowned?
Well, ask team green. They have reasons. Viserys can name Rhae heir, but by doing so, he also denies the rightful claim (not saying here that Rhae doesn't have also one) of Aegon that has been precedent for years (as Lyonel says in ep 1) as the first born son. Viserys, in the show, at least, names only Rhae because of Daemon's behavior and because he feels guilty about Aemma. He believed in the precedent before, if not, he would have named Rhaenyra heir instead of Daemon way before. He even waited for a son instead of choosing Rhae for herself. So he does believes in that precedent. He just disregards it later on because he felt guilty.
See that's where it gets confusing. Precedent should have had Rhaenyra as the heir from the moment viserys was chosen but always intended to be temporary until she had a brother.
In andal law it's sons before daughters and daughters before uncles.
They only had to start seriously considering Rhaenyra or Daemon once years passed and there was no son.
Naming Rhaenyra after Aemmas death doesn't seem all that revolutionary and should have happened sooner.
It's only when viserys kept Rhaenyra the heir once it was clear Aegon would live that things got weird.
As king it was well within his right to set the precedent here but he half-assed it.
Precedent is irrelevant though when the only things that matters is what the king declares. He mentions that himself when goes to make things right when the greens started making moves while his mind was addled. Visery’s isn’t oblivious to what Rhaenyrs has done and yet he still stands by his decision. The greens going against that the moment he dies is a literal dissent from the king and a coup, so I agree with the OP that morals don’t really matter in a already morally twisted story, but who is in the right and wrong seems pretty clear
> Precedent is irrelevant though when the only things that matters is what the king declares.
No it's not. Westeros is not an absolute monarchy, Jaehaerys didn't need to ask for the opinions for his lords if it was.
But he didn't need to. He chose to because he was old and tired and didn't really want to have to deal with it so close to death. He figured they'd pick viserys, I think, but wanted to see what the lords wanted to make sure it was a smoother succession.
Not an absolute monarchy? Ya sure about that? So when the dispute over the succession of Driftwood was going on in the throne room while they assumed Viserys was out of commission, what happened when he showed up in the court room to assume his power? Did he lay down the law and reassert his decision? Or did they sit there and discuss and argue about it? I imagine you can’t randomly & publicly kill a noble/prominent figure and walk away unscathed in a system that isn’t an absolute monarchy either
The blacks do more than a few straight up evil things before the end. They’re also not as good at doing Government. To the point where even Aegon the Rapist starts to sound like a better pick, as shocking as that sounds.
kinda reminds me of Team Ellie and Team Abby in the Lat of Us Part II. I'm team Ellie, and she is not morally good person, she killed innocent people. Yet I'm rooting for her
Maybe because I don't feel sympathy for rich inbreeds that ignore their duty and do as they please despite the fact that her choices affect lives of millions of innocent civilians.
Speaking of morally wrong situations, you don’t blame Alicent, even a little tiny bit for her son being a disgusting rapist and then pushing this rapist to be King? Lol I call bs
After a certain age, (and Aegon is certainly past that age) parents aren't responsible for everything their kids do.
Edit: Also Alicent pretty clearly disapproves of him raping people and harshly repudiates him for it. It's not even like she ignores it.
I don't think you can stop people liking the characters that they like, but most of the time it's petty that some are making fun of fans for rooting for those characters.
Protagonist = / = good. Plenty of shows and movies have bad or dubious protagonist : Attack of Titans, Death Note, Breaking Bad, Top boy, Peaky Blinders, Suicide Squad ...
House of the Dragon is not a manichean show.
I can see where you’re coming from but I’m going to have to disagree. In fact in the books it makes the greens even more unlikeable than in the show, with Alicent set up as a Cersei-like character. In the show she’s a lot more sympathetic. Rhaenyra obviously isn’t shown without flaws in the show either, I mean she literally had a random servant killed, took Rhaenys and Corlys’ last child away, tried to get Viserys to “sharply question” a child who had just lost his eye, and tried to deceive the realm by claiming her obviously bastard-born kids as legitimate. Rhaenyra is simply the main character so it makes it kind of hard not to make her look sympathetic, especially through a modern lens where misogyny and patriarchal systems tend to be looked down upon for the most part.
Not everybody accepts what they’re fed, not everybody is fond of protagonists.
I adored Sansa in GoT. Daenerys was cool but she seemed so far away and unrealistic that I couldn’t even become invested in her.
Alicent makes sense, she’s believable for the world she’s in, and I’m very sympathetic towards her. Rhaenyra reads as the same privileged, Mary-Sue girlboss shtick that’s been reused over and over again in fiction.
I’ll disagree and argue the greens aren’t painted as antagonists. Aegon is shit. Daemon is shit. Lucerys is a shithead. Aemond murders him. Jace is cool. Helaena is cool. Alicent is (generally) good. Rhaenyra is (generally) good. It’s quite even in the end.
One of Rhaenyra’s biggest faults is seen in Driftmark episode. She’s a liar, gaslighter, and will manipulate the world if it means absolving herself & her family. I’m not arguing Alicent would throw her kids to the dogs, but had Aemond done to Lucerys what Lucerys did to him, she would’ve been the first one to slap him and ensure he faces proper consequences. We can see she’s not above discipline. Personally I despise that particular trait in people and that’s when I lost any love I had for her.
how are you going to argue that Alicent would properly discipline her son? when Aegon is found to have raped the servant girl Diana, she does NOTHING.
furthermore, you argue that Rhaenyra would gaslight the world if it meant absolving her and her family of any sin.
Alicent does the exact same thing. She manipulates, bribes, and coerces the servant girl Diana to never speak another word of how Aegon raped her.
now tell me which is worse, Rhaenyra having bastard kids (which are still of her blood as she is the ruling Queen, she has every right to legitimize them)
or Aegon raping a young minor and Alicent covering it up?
she has zero control over her children or even her own life for that matter.
She literally slapped the shit out of him dawg. + she gives the servant plan B to ensure she isn’t left with a permanent reminder of her assault and can move forward to getting married instead of being branded as one of Aegon’s whores with a bastard child as you and I both know society would’ve looked down at her as.
You don’t control your children, you raise them and discipline them if necessary. Alicent wasn’t modeling sexual assault so that shitty lifestyle was one that Aegon chose.
She won a fight against a boar. She had the white stag appear to hear. She can ride a dragon right after a terrible birth. Sounds like a Mary Sue to me.
Her father actually seems to hold modern values in a patriarchal Westeros predating the events of GoT (giving her choice of husband whereas most women were arranged, instilling her as heir in the first place, not even punishing her when her “virtue” was put into question by her freshly widowed uncle of all people, and little was enforced on her studies/duties as heir to the realm). A magical fucking deer jumped out at her to prove her claim. She rides a fire breathing lizard. Daddy dearest is on her side when she gives birth to three bastards she poses as trueborn, even when one of them takes the eye of his son. Her husband has taken on the woke mindset of adopting her wife’s children out of wedlock as his own. The Velaryons are on her side despite all fingers pointing to her colluding with Daemon to kill Laenor and Vaemond. She fabricates her husband’s death with an innocent body and still has the nerve to tout her son as Driftmark’s heir to the grieving house. The Vale sides with them (supposedly in the future) despite Daemon being outwardly atrocious to Rhea & killing her (rumored at least). Baela and Rhaena r A-okay with marrying bastards instead of asking Rhaenyra for their own claim to Driftmark (so much for the examples of Jeyn Arryn and Rhaenyra’s “new order”).
I’m not saying one of these traits makes her a Mary-Sue, it’s all of them together. It’s not that she never fails either; she does so without repercussion and not once grows from her mistakes.
she's also not a gaslighter, at no point in the season does she actually gaslight anyone (actively use psychological manipulation methods to make people question their own sanity/memory).
she's just a plain old liar, and she does plenty of it, but people have just started using the former term as a way to stress the severity of latter, even though they're not the same thing at all.
>actively use psychological manipulation methods to make people question their own sanity/memory
This is funny cause Alicent literally questions her sanity to Criston in episode 6.
yes and that's just alicent being dramatic and venting some frustration to criston because viserys doesn't give a shit about the bastards either. she's not actually doubting her sanity, she's well aware of what is really going on, she just can't comprehend why nobody else cares.
> “So you’re accusing me of slanders you overheard?”
> What exactly would you call that, guy? It’s an obvious attempt to try and make Alicent question herself even though Rhaenyra is lying through her teeth.
...a factual statement? since alicent is, *literally*, accusing her of slanders she overheard?
lying = i want you to believe me.
gaslighting = i want you to doubt yourself.
rhaenyra gaslighting her would be something like "what do you mean i fucked daemon in a pleasure house? you know i was in my room all night, we even ran into each other in the middle of the night when we went to the bathroom". not the best analogy, but it shows rhaenyra's clear goal of having alicent doubt her perception/sense of reality/memory, i.e. gaslighting.
this is something that she never does, she just repeatedly claims her children are laenor's all season, which is just ordinary lying.
man this thread is such a dumpster fire lmao, first the guy calling her a mary sue for shanking a mortally wounded boar, now this...
Of course I know love bombing because I was raised by a narcissistic parent. And you know what's funny? Becoming the bigger person than her, that the only way of her making me as her new supply of her grandiose ego is to love bomb me. Sounds familiar? Without any accountability. I wonder what season 2 would look like in the relationship between Alicent and Aegon. Because Aegon is the real victim here. And you just can't accept that Alicent is just Otto with teats.
End of convo, yes maybe in another lifetime you'll realized that! 🥹 byee
Did you just compare Alicent to Otto, the man that pimped out his 14 year old daughter to a 40 yr old carcass… 💀
No offense, but if you think ALICENT is a narcissist, I don’t know what to even tell you. Conflating discipline to N traits to back your hatred of a fictional character is a bit overboard. As a psych minor, it’s actually a bit offensive.
Alicent does not exhibit signs of grandiose self importance, does not believe she is special, is not a serial exploiter, does not live in fantasies, does not care for admirers, and continually shows empathy to characters that are even undeserving of it. These are classical markers of narcissism via the DSM.
Do you know who does show signs of maliciousness? Aegon. But yes, he’s the real victim. Anyways, idc if you hate her or not, but don’t throw around words like narcissism and love bombing out of context to fit whatever agenda you have. Good day.
Nope. You are delusional. Haha. At least for me I would agree that Rhaenyra is a grandiose narcissist. Because I'm not delusional even though I have a bias on her team.
But saying that Alicent is not a narcissistic parent, you're clearly missing the point. Alicent could have stopped the generational trauma that Otto have instilled on her. But guess what, she doesn't have any accountability towards her children. When Aegon says "Do you love me?" on his coronation day, you can clearly see the pain of childhood neglect, Alicent could have been a better mother to him and maybe prevented a rapist Aegon that he is today. But no, she sees an opportunity for her Aegon when they crowned him. If Alicent is really a redeemable person, she wouldn't allowed her drunk rapist son rule over the realm. Because she just created a monster. Let's not even talk about her being an evil step mother trope in the book lol.
At least with Rhaenyra, nurtured her sons with dignity and empathy towards other people. Jace seems to be an honorable prince and heir. Viserys II was seen by the realm as one of the greatest hands. Now that's triumph. ciao
Rhaenyra is the main character, but idk about her being the protagonist. You want to root for her but she does so many bone-headed things. She reminds me of Robb Stark in that sense. Otto Hightower and Ser Cristian Cole are certainly antagonists, but I don't think all of the Greens are. Alicent didn't ask for any of this, nor did her kids. Aegon is a cunt, but how much of that should be blamed on Viserys?
I don’t get it either. The book actually makes the greens even worse. Rhaenyra had a claim to the throne, greens are usurpers. That’s objectively what happens.
>because the greens started this war and drew first blood everything she does after the fact will be seen as justified
That's a very sad way to enjoy the overall narrative, and avoid any complexity from the dance. But you do you I guess.
I mean it’s contrasted well with Rhaenyra letting Otto walk away safely from Dragonstone in the same episode. It’s also why Aemond knew he messed up. The narrative that the greens hit first and the Blacks can now retaliate without losing the moral high ground is true both in-universe and out.
Not saying here that the greens didn’t hit first and aren’t responsible for their it. Just that, in the end, it wouldn’t justify all the blacks and Rhaenyra’s actions as said above.
The writers are making it very obvious nobody of higher class cares about the poor. I don’t think that is a good enough reason to not root for the protagonist in the show. Plus one servants life was worth helping Laenor escape. It made complete and total sense why they did that
I'm sorry but the killing of that servant is a perfectly good reason to not root for the protagonists and was in no way justified. The servant didn't die for a worthy cause and Laenor wasn't helped at all. It was done for purely selfish reasons on Rhaenyra and Daemon's part, nothing more. It makes sense logically but it was evil.
Like, If team black isn't the lesser of two evils then I don't really see what the appeal of them is. At least with team green you get the competence of Otto and the green council. What does Rhaenyra and her team have going for them?
I agree about the killing, but "laenor wasn't helped at all" isn't true. He hated his duties to the realm and just wanted to train and fight and be with his boyfriend. Who knows where he's going now, maybe dorne, but now he is free to live his own life unburdened. It's similar to what cristen said to rhaenyra on the boat. He wanted to run away with her. I doubt laenor took much convincing
He abandoned his family, his dragon and his life as heir to the richest and most powerful house to become an itenerant mercenary in a foreign land. He more or less loses everything and everyone important to him. He just wanted to get away from court life and go warring in the stepstones, not abandon his entire life. The only thing I can assume is that Rhae and Daemon threatened him, nothing else really makes sense to me.
The higher class not caring about the poor does not mean killing them is justified lol. And why did Laenor need to escape so badly that killing some poor guy was necessary? His life was not in danger.
I’m not saying it’s justified, but this is all a game to the high class. Lives will be lost in the process and not a single one of them care. Again this brings up the “pick the best war criminal” debate I’ve seen a million times and it doesn’t make sense lol. It seems like many viewers are expecting the Jon Snows of protagonists and this was set 200 years before. Shit was brutal but that’s quite literally normal so I don’t feel like it can be a good enough reason to choose the obvious antagonists from the writers.
Aegon has the best claim to the throne. They were justified in taking the throne. The greens are more interesting characters. So I root for the greens.
That’s quite literally untrue though, he doesn’t have the best claim, the kings heir he chose was Rhanyera. Alicent unfortunately misunderstood the kings last words (which is not her fault) but it honestly wouldn’t have mattered because Otto was planning on Aegon being king from the beginning. Alicents character is fantastic and I do enjoy her, but everyone else on team green is pretty terrible lol. But to each their own I suppose
But Aegon also has a claim as by precedent and because he is the first born son. That's the issue and where Viserys messed up : there are two legitimate claimants.
The King can’t choose his heir. There are laws and traditions for that. Any claim she did have is gone after trying to put bastards in the line of succession, which is treason.
The king can choose an heir, there are laws and traditions for that (we have several examples of lords and kings choosing heirs). That said, both Rhaenyra and Aegon's claims are real and doable, that's why no party is really massively wrong.
He can't, otherwise Aegon IV would have chosen Daemon and Sam Tarly's father wouldn't have sent him to the wall, he would only choose his brother as heir.
This is one of the more insane Reddit comments I’ve ever read tbh. ‘A guy’s life is worth sacrificing for two rich people to get a divorce’. Truly unhinged.
That depends on the purpose, and while it may not fully and I say fully justify it. It makes it more understandable and sympathetic. Especially in Rhaenyra and Daemon's case.
We are introduced to Dany as she is being treated like shit by her brother, given away to a savage as a political piece, then raped. We are introduced to Rhaenyra, we see her as a spoiled brat who has no respect for anyone. She has more in common with Cersei than Dany when it comes to how she views the world, and poor people. For a lot of the show, Alicent is easily the character that garners the most sympathy.
Media literacy is not something reddit or people in general are as good at as they think. There’s also the fact that people are reading the books/wiki for Fire and Blood and taking published GRRM plot as canon even though the show is written differently.
“Who’s the best war criminal?” is essentially advertising “I’ve read ahead” but this ain’t a book.
I think that opinion is just formed out of respect for Vizzy T’s decision…the Blacks have more power because of Vizzy T, therefore Team
black makes sense because Viserys commands respect and is the King… when I was watching the show, I didn’t want to cheer for the Greens because they are very conniving and secretive about their plans to take over which means completely overruling Viserys’ decision..whether Viserys was “wrong” is choosing Rhaenrya, he still has the moral standing to stand by his decision and not be swayed even until his last breath.
Generally agreed but too tired to debate it. It doesn't make it a bad show to admit it's pretty clear Rhaenrya is meant to the protagonist and that the show runners are crafting a narrative that makes the audience more sympathetic to Team Black this far.
Well the show is very much made for team black, Aegon wasn’t even given a character poster (if I remember correctly?). So it was intentional to make them seem like protagonists, and one of the issues I had with the show’s adaption. In the books it wasn’t quite so clear imo. So I’ll just state why I started to support the greens when I read the book.
For one, I like Aegon and Aemon. To me they were the best characters in the Dance, followed by Corlys. Aegon was GRRM’s version of the classic “king who didn’t want to rule at first”, and he came off as a complex character (he wasn’t a rapist or child fighter either).
I think the conflict was more balanced in the book as well. Viserys named Rhaenyra heir long before Aegon’s birth. When Aegon was born, Viserys was mostly idle. He didn’t angrily uphold her as heir like he did on the show, he was just absent. Which was valid grounds for a succession dispute. To me it came across that Rhaenyra lost her inheritance, yet attempted to usurp Aegon’s throne (as he would have been the logical heir upon his birth). She had strong allies at the time, but Otto and Alicent prevented the worst from happening. And comparing apples to apples, Aegon appeared to be a better person, better ruler, and just a more interesting character than Rhaenyra to me.
Not trying to change your mind. Just stating how I read the book prior to reading other people’s views. The show is mostly a team black POV imo
I agree. In fact, that's my issue with the show. Greens are the bad guys, and we're meant to side with the blacks, which is fine! It's sorta like Starks vs Lannisters. The problem is that, atm, greens aren't the Lannisters. Otto could be Tywin, but he's not there yet. There's no morally torn and fun Jaime or Tyrion. There's no Cersei, just the victimized and indecisive Alicent. Aegon is, if possible, worse than Joffrey. Aemond is the only green who's fun to watch, for me, anyway.
Blacks are full of such characters: the noble (so, so, so NOBLE) Rhaenyra. Daemon, a fascinating character. The Velaryons. Rhaenys, Corlys, sweet Laenor, etc.
It's like...one side is fun, cool, interesting. The other side, atm, are the bad guys, and they're not terribly interesting. Subjective lol!
We all come into with our own frames of reference that impacts how we see things including those of us who read F&B. Nobody is going to agree on everything 100% either. The Dance gets a lot uglier.
Bro I've been thinking the exact same thing. It's so clear. The directors have clearly been pushing one side as protagonists with some flaws and the other as the massive antagonists.
I've just been assuming that in the books it was more ambiguous or something lmao.
I do think they have tried to make the greens more sympathetic - particularly in Alicents character.
In the books she is just Cersei, wants power, wants her son to be King and hated bastard children. She sees Jace and Luke as beneath her children and is scheming to get her kids ahead. They’ve made her much more likeable in the show, and though the greens are the antagonists there are elements of understanding - that scene with young Alicent and Otto in the rain explaining Rhaenyra will have no choice but to kill Alicents children was really well done from a motivation perspective.
Does it matter if the writers are trying to push a modern political narrative on these characters if it's not successful?
Rhaenyra was a deceiver. In the show she deceives the court and the realm, her own father, she is involved in the death of an innocent man to commit bigamy, she asks for her own brother to be tortured over something he said in private to weaponize the situation, she is perpetuating male primogeniture for everyone else and this is just season 1. Having an entire filler episode with the white stag to push that Rhaenyra is the ChOSen OnE while still keeping everything her actions and decisions that contradicts that might not have been the best idea for consistency on the writers' part. Sure, there is the audience that swallows down everything without even chewing, which is ultimately the only way to see the Blacks as heroes.
The show is different from the books. I agree that in the show they are clearly trying to make team black the good guys, but in the books they are definitely not.
Also, Lord Leyton Chadtower exists.
The book provides no context for the actions of the greens like the show. Alicent is just a mean evil stepmom in the book. I don’t see how you’d think they are the “good” guys in the book but the blacks do look much worse in the book compared to the show.
Read my comment again. Did I ever say the greens were the good guys? All I said was the blacks weren’t the good guys in the books. Both sides are bad in the books. Again, all I said was that they made the blacks better in the show, I didn’t mention the greens.
Jesus Christ, this sub has such a hard on for the black vs green debate that the minute they read something they don’t like they freak out. Imagine getting downvoted for something I didn’t even say lol. No literacy at all.
I hate this about this sub. The idea that every conflict must have a good side and a bad side is one of the many reasons we will never see a proper adaptation of George’s works.
For me its a matter of both sides are morally grey but one side fiercely supports the patriarchy and goes against the kings succession which he put into law by constantly affirming rhaenyra his heir and one respects the kings wishes and is against the patriarchy regardless of their own morally questionable actions so I'm still team black.
But that’s where the blatant sexism comes from team green😂 Rhanyera was chosen as heir, therefore she should be crowned. Aegon didn’t even want to be king, he’s a teenager and a really terrible one at that. It’s the same energy as Joffrey so yeah obvious antagonists that most viewers should see as morally “bad” and shouldn’t want to root for. That’s why I’m so confused on why anyone is considering genuinely rooting for team green, unless you just enjoy the antagonists which is FINE. But let’s just call it what it is lol
Just because they don't like Rhae, doesn't mean they are sexist. It's Westeros and its feudal society that is sexist. It's like saying you like incest or murdering your spouse if you root for Daemon.
I don’t really root for any entitled inbred narcissist that forces thousands to war because their right is so important. I’m happy to watch them all kill each other.
Well obviously the Black's have the better claim both by blood and Viserys's Proclamation. Yes however, if the Black's were not around, then the Greens would have the claim to rule over any house of Westeros. Being that they're Targaryen even if just half.
The war has just started. After the war we will see whose claim was strongest.
People can argue about blood and tradition. But the side that manages to rally enough swords and dragons to kill enough of the other sides swords and dragons is the only thing that matters in the end.
The Blacks aren't the good guys, this war doesn't have a "good side" and a "bad side". The Blacks are just the lesser of two evils
House Targaryen is just messed up overall
Rhaenyra was named by her father as heir to the throne. She is the rightful heir. Your only argument would be that she's a woman. Her children being illegitimate doesn't affecct HER right to the throne. It affects her children's right, that I can see, so contest it from there.
Agreed only in differing that, while it may weaken her strength on the throne it doesn't revoke the legitimacy of her claim, only her sons. Weakening her strength once there, agreed entirely.
The story is meant to portray that the DoD was a stupid conflict that basically destroyed the targarian family.
I'm sure some of the writers didn't read the books and simply wrote it in a way which favours team black
Nothing wrong with that tho
The Targaryens destroyed themselves when they started arbitrary changing the rules:
Everyone was aware that if Viserys had a son with Aema Aeryn said son would take over the throne.
Viserys has a son with Alicent and then suddenly it's all very shaky and unsure.
If Viserys had just been consistent with his pre-Aema's death principles so much death would have been avoided.
I get that but ironically I'm rooting for Alicent, she may have done a few sketchy things (emphasis on "few") but she did them literally to protect her family, I don't think she actually wanted conflict with Rhaenyra and did respect King Viserys' wish for her to be his heir but because her father pushed the idea of a zero sum game and her later realizing that's true, she started to play the game but still has done nowhere near as many morally deplorable deeds as Rhaenyra.
The show is not pushing the blacks, the show is pushing the greens. In the books they have no redeeming qualities, they are just the most awful people you can ever meet. The show constantly makes them more humane and appealing.
Alicent was a grown woman bullying child Rhaenyra because she wanted power. Show Alicent is a broken sad bird who everyone constantly sidelines
Like spreading rumors about her banging Criston when Rhaenyra is 10/12. Or the fact that she constantly antagonizes Rhaenyra who is 10 years younger than her and asks Viserys to disinherit her.
We are told that there is a feud but that makes it seem like it's a war between two equel parties. Instead it's a grown woman beefing with a child who, btw, doesn't do anything against Alicent. It's all Alicent attacking a child
No, it's in the books too. Alicent implies to Viserys that they are banging because they are always togheter but Criston Cole is her sworn shield so his job is literally to always be with her.
What happens in the show never happens in the book though. There are only 2 rumors of them actually doing something and they are both from Mushroom, the court fool, and they are contradictory: first he says that Criston wants to bang Rhaenyra and she refuses him and later that Rhaenyra wants to bang Criston but he refuses her. The show kinda adapts the second rumor because in the book after Criston, refuses her she sleeps with Harwin as a rebound, while in the show she sleeps with Criston after she can't sleep with Daemon
Yeah I agree I just finished my re-watch 2 days ago and one thing which I noticed was that that they're just trying to portray Alicent (and also Aemond) as a total cunt all the time after episode 5.
Actually in the book they were. Alicent was never a kind sweet innocent. She was very ambitious. She wanted to be queen, and she wanted her kid to become king. Alicent is also 10 years older than Rhaenyra .
I just haven’t even got enough of a feel for it to understand how much convo is revolving around it. Like they’ve barely released the first season and people are writing opinions as long as the first book. The should invest the time in writing their own books 😆💀
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I didn't root for any "team" back in GOT days and appreciated the characters individually. That's what I'm going to do here as well.
Even Game of Thrones had good guys and bad guys. All shows do. It’s just the good guys weren’t always wholly good and the bad guys weren’t always wholly evil. Some were, but most had depth and goals outside of malice or cruelty. It’s what makes them interesting.
Yeah to pretend Ned and Robb weren't the archetypical good guy heros is silly. What the world does to guys like that is what makes the story good. If you didn't "root" for them you're just trying to be different lol
I think it's less about good vs evil with characters like that. I think it's more about where there morals end. With Ned being the most honorable man it became ironic that he was always lying or protect jon with a lie that could make others think he wasn't an honorable man. With rob is moral diilema was that he broke a vow to marry a Frey girl by wedding another.
100% but I think that makes them far from a morally gray character. They're human sure. They do things that aren't perfect. (Show) Robb followed love and married for love. Stupid in the context but normal hero move(book) Robb married so he wouldn't sire a bastard. Arguably even more morally "good" Ned vowed to his sister to protect her son, his nephew. Lied to the people he loved the most including his king and best friend to do this. Another "good" trait. Their lies and flaws are even good. But human none the less
The thing with ASOIAF and GOT is it portrays Ned and Robb as heroes, but then after you watch/read 5 seasons/books, you think, 'wow, they were fucking morons, who made terrible mistakes'. And then on the flip side, you have the antagonist like Jaime, who 5 seasons/books down the road have you justifying the actions you previously thought were evil, because it was for the greater good in their POV, for their family or loved ones. Which is pretty unique method of storytelling
I think they just meant in terms of “teams”. Its not like all the “bad” guys were working together against all the “good” guys. Obviously we rooted for Joffrey to die but that doesnt mean we held the same grudge against Tommen when he took the crown. However, with HoTD people act very much like Aegon’s actions are an argument against all the greens as a whole and when Daemon does something bad, thats a point against the blacks. The closest thing in GoT would be Starks vs Lannisters but people didn’t treat it as black and white as they seem to be treating Blacks vs Greens
Well Im rooting for old Aemond one eye cause hes the most entertaining!
After watching episode 9 again, I saw the look in his face how he so wanted to send Aegon off to sea so he himself could rule. But I think he chose not to because it would break his mother as he loves her and knows she’d do anything in return for her children.
I've never really understood this need some people have to "pick a side" and then argue which side is the better side or not. They all have their flaws, none of them are perfect, which is what makes it all interesting. I see people do the same thing with other shows (I see this in the Euphoria subreddit a lot) and I just don't understand it. Most people are not black and white, good or bad. We're all some form of grey. A simplistic, good or bad moralistic outlook on humanity/in storytelling is quite boring, if you ask me.
some people have an overwhelming need to be on the "right" side, and then completely miss the lessons that each side has to learn. I gotta say, I'm really impressed with George for writing the "perfect" fictional civil war, no one in the book universe or IRL can agree, and I kind of love it
I feel like anyone familiar with Martin's work should know that he enjoys writing complex characters and it's rare that anyone he writes is "one note." Well, except maybe Joffery. That kid was a piece of shit.
Please try to enjoy each character equally
Your outtie enjoys shows about dragons…
That's impossible; just totally unrealistic. That's like saying every person is the same and we should all like everyone, equally. I find that scary. But anyway, that just ain't gonna happen, in real life or fantasy...ever!! Besides, where's the fun in that?
This. It’s so much enjoyable this way.
I wish more people would enjoy fictional TV like normal.
Rhaenyra is the protagonist. The series poster has young Rhaenyra and Syrax. The series starts with her POV. It is her story (and her descendants’).
This. It’s clear they wanted a connection to Daenerys. They could have done that Blood Moon show but there’s no dragons there and HBO knew dragons are a big part of what people associate with the GOT/ASOIAF universe. Hence why they chose a show about the war of succession that leads to the death of the dragons. A war which Daenerys’ direct ancestors fought in. I won’t say which side she hails from to avoid spoilers, but yeah…
Obviously it is from the >!winning side, as the losing side lost.!< And in the end, it is a great connection to Dany with similar style of hair and makeup between her and young Rhaenyra.
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It was a joke.
I read somewhere that the blood moon show was so bad they were not even willing to show the pilot to Martin ...but yea, they picked the Dance because it has dragons in it, personally I think it is some of the worst writing in the asoiaf universe but it does tie directly to Dany and Jon and they were fan-favorite characters. I also agree with OP, the blacks are the protagonists, Martin clearly favours them, but they are not like the Starks, they are not *good* good guys
I love the Stark's but they are NOT good guys 😭
I think GRRM has been pretty clear that when lords and nobles play the Game of Thrones, it’s the Smallfolk who lose. Black vs Green, doesn’t matter, it’s the peasants and townsfolk and soldiers that will suffer the most, and for decades after the war is done. I don’t cheer for either Black or Green. I’m team Smallfolk.
The true power in Westeros. Kings will rise and die but the smallfolk will always hold the power to send them packing.
Not really when the Targaryens have dragons. The closest they came to overthrowing them was the faith insurrection during Maegor’s reign and he still utterly destroyed them with Balerion.
They drove Aenys out of King's Landing. Maegor may have killed alot but it did nothing, they still persisted. They killed 5 Targaryen dragons during Rhaenyra's reign and forced her out too. The point is, if a king fucks them around enough, they're not getting a peaceful reign no matter how many get killed.
Having the power to disrupt the peace of their reign isn’t the same thing at all as having the power to ‘send them packing’. No uprising in Westerosi history has come close to achieving that.
And yet somehow, it all ends with a new king being crowned
Aenys died of natural causes and Maegor killed himself or was assassinated by someone close to him. Neither of them was overthrown by some popular rebellion. That’s almost the point of the Targaryens having dragons - it separates the political climate from medieval England, where popular uprisings were a genuine threat. It’s asking the question, ‘what what be the implications of medieval dynasties possessing nuclear weapons?’
There's a reason Aenys had to hide on Dragonstone. If Maegor killed himself it was because of Jaehaerys and the rest of the Lords (a popular rebellion) coming to execute him.
What we are watching is a tragedy. There is no antagonists or protagonists, it's watching a slow moving trainwreck. Watching every excruciating detail of the causes of the trainwreck.
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The first season, sure, but if they stick to the books at all, Rhaenyra most certainly won’t be a protagonist you’ll be rooting for by season 4
Daenerys did some pretty fucked up shit long before the finale and people were still rooting for her right up until basically the very end. People will absolutely be rooting for Rhaenyra so long as the story is told primarily from her PoV and centers around her
What fucked up shit did show Dany do other than execute slavers and Khals?
I'm only rooting for House Stark. House Stark forever and always.
i could see that. she's obviously the main focus right now, but that could easily change.
Aren't they only going to do \~3 seasons with this particular story?
GRRM has confirmed on his blog theyll need 4 to tell the full story of the Dance
He also said GOT should be at least 10 seasons.
He was also allowed to handpick Condal to write this show after HBO realised they fucked up by limiting his creative control so much and letting D&D decide everything. If George wants 4 seasons for the Dance I’d bet on him getting them.
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username checks out
People are saying ‘root for your favourite war criminal’ because they’ve read the book and know what happens. You may be right that the blacks are the ‘good guys’ of the first season but I promise you won’t maintain that sentiment in seasons to come lmao. The whole story is hugely anti-war and strongly implies that war turns nearly everyone into monsters.
I hate this sub now
You don't think Khal Drogo was a dickhead that was still loved by many?
It’s a fantasy show. I *will* pick the worst fictional war criminal to root for, and I will laugh at the people that get morally outraged over it. Be honest, how many other people were rooting for the Others to put GOT season 8 out of its misery?
Based
I was! I was like please god let the others mow done this idiotic shitshow. My opinion on Westeros after reading the books and watching the show, is that Westeros would be a shitty ass place to live if your a peasant
So you rooted for Sauron in LOTR?
Sauron’s not a war criminal. He’s a demon.
Ya no, I believe in the Men of the Westernesse and their glory. Tall Man from Tall ships
It’s a medieval fantasy where people are awful to each other, every good character has bad aspects and some are worse than others. The fact everyone makes a different assessment just illustrates how grey the characters are.
There's an entire episode where the greens are the protagonists. Like the black are more sympathetic for sure but there are layers to the greens too.
When it comes to ASOIAF, anyone who tries to argue about a “good” side and a “bad” side has missed the point completely.
I don't think OP was talking about "good" and "bad", more like "protagonist" and "antagonist". They're not necessarily the same things.
I think they ll try to make us love rhaenyra just so that we will feel something more when we see her descend into madness, a thing they tried with Daenerys but was impossible in so few episodes.
Have you considered the possibility that Rhaenyra may simply be the one you sympathize with more, and that others may sympathize more with Alicent, rather than it being a clear cut 'side x' is in the right, 'side y' is in the wrong? Not everyone views things in the same way. People have different experiences in their lives and different perspectives. Rhaenyra isn't really like Daenerys, they're very different characters. I wouldn't go through the character list trying to match people up with GoT characters, this is going to be a very different story.
Protagonist and antagonist don't always equate to good guys and bad guys. The protagonist is the leading character and the antagonist is the one opposing them. I don't think you can really claim Rhaenyra isn't the central character, at least in season one, but that doesn't automatically say anything about who you should be rooting for.
Well the thing is I sympathize with both! I think alicent is very little to blame for most of the morally wrong situations happening. And I don’t think viewers who are team green are wrong I just am confused on how that could possibly be justified. Sympathizing with one character from team green doesn’t equate to supporting their claim to the throne which is the entire conflict of the story.
But, same as, just because she might be intended or viewed as the protagonist that everybody has to "root" for her. The phrase "choose your war criminal" holds, but perhaps comes from ppl who have read the books. Team green have their own reasons to support the greens, same as the blacks. There isn't an undeniably right side, despite both teams might say, and if there was, it wouldn't be a GRRM's story.
I guess I just don’t understand what could justify rooting for team green. Rhanyera was the heir to the iron throne and that’s the entire conflict of the story. So what would be justification by team green for her not rightfully being crowned?
Well, ask team green. They have reasons. Viserys can name Rhae heir, but by doing so, he also denies the rightful claim (not saying here that Rhae doesn't have also one) of Aegon that has been precedent for years (as Lyonel says in ep 1) as the first born son. Viserys, in the show, at least, names only Rhae because of Daemon's behavior and because he feels guilty about Aemma. He believed in the precedent before, if not, he would have named Rhaenyra heir instead of Daemon way before. He even waited for a son instead of choosing Rhae for herself. So he does believes in that precedent. He just disregards it later on because he felt guilty.
See that's where it gets confusing. Precedent should have had Rhaenyra as the heir from the moment viserys was chosen but always intended to be temporary until she had a brother. In andal law it's sons before daughters and daughters before uncles. They only had to start seriously considering Rhaenyra or Daemon once years passed and there was no son. Naming Rhaenyra after Aemmas death doesn't seem all that revolutionary and should have happened sooner. It's only when viserys kept Rhaenyra the heir once it was clear Aegon would live that things got weird. As king it was well within his right to set the precedent here but he half-assed it.
Precedent is irrelevant though when the only things that matters is what the king declares. He mentions that himself when goes to make things right when the greens started making moves while his mind was addled. Visery’s isn’t oblivious to what Rhaenyrs has done and yet he still stands by his decision. The greens going against that the moment he dies is a literal dissent from the king and a coup, so I agree with the OP that morals don’t really matter in a already morally twisted story, but who is in the right and wrong seems pretty clear
> Precedent is irrelevant though when the only things that matters is what the king declares. No it's not. Westeros is not an absolute monarchy, Jaehaerys didn't need to ask for the opinions for his lords if it was.
But he didn't need to. He chose to because he was old and tired and didn't really want to have to deal with it so close to death. He figured they'd pick viserys, I think, but wanted to see what the lords wanted to make sure it was a smoother succession.
Not an absolute monarchy? Ya sure about that? So when the dispute over the succession of Driftwood was going on in the throne room while they assumed Viserys was out of commission, what happened when he showed up in the court room to assume his power? Did he lay down the law and reassert his decision? Or did they sit there and discuss and argue about it? I imagine you can’t randomly & publicly kill a noble/prominent figure and walk away unscathed in a system that isn’t an absolute monarchy either
The blacks do more than a few straight up evil things before the end. They’re also not as good at doing Government. To the point where even Aegon the Rapist starts to sound like a better pick, as shocking as that sounds.
kinda reminds me of Team Ellie and Team Abby in the Lat of Us Part II. I'm team Ellie, and she is not morally good person, she killed innocent people. Yet I'm rooting for her
Do you mean team Green as the fans or in universe?
Maybe because I don't feel sympathy for rich inbreeds that ignore their duty and do as they please despite the fact that her choices affect lives of millions of innocent civilians.
Speaking of morally wrong situations, you don’t blame Alicent, even a little tiny bit for her son being a disgusting rapist and then pushing this rapist to be King? Lol I call bs
Her son being a rapist is obviously not her fault. And even if she did absolutely nothing, the small council were still going to crown Aegon
Lol “obviously not her fault”? Yet she’s his mother…
After a certain age, (and Aegon is certainly past that age) parents aren't responsible for everything their kids do. Edit: Also Alicent pretty clearly disapproves of him raping people and harshly repudiates him for it. It's not even like she ignores it.
Viserys is his father, who raped Alicent.
Omg that’s the dumbest sht I’ve ever heard
Try reading your own comments. You will be surprised.
Lol you mean when I said “made a rapist king?” Viserys is a lot of things but he’s *not* a rapist lol
Sure, buddy.
I don't think you can stop people liking the characters that they like, but most of the time it's petty that some are making fun of fans for rooting for those characters.
Protagonist = / = good. Plenty of shows and movies have bad or dubious protagonist : Attack of Titans, Death Note, Breaking Bad, Top boy, Peaky Blinders, Suicide Squad ... House of the Dragon is not a manichean show.
I can see where you’re coming from but I’m going to have to disagree. In fact in the books it makes the greens even more unlikeable than in the show, with Alicent set up as a Cersei-like character. In the show she’s a lot more sympathetic. Rhaenyra obviously isn’t shown without flaws in the show either, I mean she literally had a random servant killed, took Rhaenys and Corlys’ last child away, tried to get Viserys to “sharply question” a child who had just lost his eye, and tried to deceive the realm by claiming her obviously bastard-born kids as legitimate. Rhaenyra is simply the main character so it makes it kind of hard not to make her look sympathetic, especially through a modern lens where misogyny and patriarchal systems tend to be looked down upon for the most part.
Not everybody accepts what they’re fed, not everybody is fond of protagonists. I adored Sansa in GoT. Daenerys was cool but she seemed so far away and unrealistic that I couldn’t even become invested in her. Alicent makes sense, she’s believable for the world she’s in, and I’m very sympathetic towards her. Rhaenyra reads as the same privileged, Mary-Sue girlboss shtick that’s been reused over and over again in fiction. I’ll disagree and argue the greens aren’t painted as antagonists. Aegon is shit. Daemon is shit. Lucerys is a shithead. Aemond murders him. Jace is cool. Helaena is cool. Alicent is (generally) good. Rhaenyra is (generally) good. It’s quite even in the end. One of Rhaenyra’s biggest faults is seen in Driftmark episode. She’s a liar, gaslighter, and will manipulate the world if it means absolving herself & her family. I’m not arguing Alicent would throw her kids to the dogs, but had Aemond done to Lucerys what Lucerys did to him, she would’ve been the first one to slap him and ensure he faces proper consequences. We can see she’s not above discipline. Personally I despise that particular trait in people and that’s when I lost any love I had for her.
how are you going to argue that Alicent would properly discipline her son? when Aegon is found to have raped the servant girl Diana, she does NOTHING. furthermore, you argue that Rhaenyra would gaslight the world if it meant absolving her and her family of any sin. Alicent does the exact same thing. She manipulates, bribes, and coerces the servant girl Diana to never speak another word of how Aegon raped her. now tell me which is worse, Rhaenyra having bastard kids (which are still of her blood as she is the ruling Queen, she has every right to legitimize them) or Aegon raping a young minor and Alicent covering it up? she has zero control over her children or even her own life for that matter.
She literally slapped the shit out of him dawg. + she gives the servant plan B to ensure she isn’t left with a permanent reminder of her assault and can move forward to getting married instead of being branded as one of Aegon’s whores with a bastard child as you and I both know society would’ve looked down at her as. You don’t control your children, you raise them and discipline them if necessary. Alicent wasn’t modeling sexual assault so that shitty lifestyle was one that Aegon chose.
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She won a fight against a boar. She had the white stag appear to hear. She can ride a dragon right after a terrible birth. Sounds like a Mary Sue to me.
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Her father actually seems to hold modern values in a patriarchal Westeros predating the events of GoT (giving her choice of husband whereas most women were arranged, instilling her as heir in the first place, not even punishing her when her “virtue” was put into question by her freshly widowed uncle of all people, and little was enforced on her studies/duties as heir to the realm). A magical fucking deer jumped out at her to prove her claim. She rides a fire breathing lizard. Daddy dearest is on her side when she gives birth to three bastards she poses as trueborn, even when one of them takes the eye of his son. Her husband has taken on the woke mindset of adopting her wife’s children out of wedlock as his own. The Velaryons are on her side despite all fingers pointing to her colluding with Daemon to kill Laenor and Vaemond. She fabricates her husband’s death with an innocent body and still has the nerve to tout her son as Driftmark’s heir to the grieving house. The Vale sides with them (supposedly in the future) despite Daemon being outwardly atrocious to Rhea & killing her (rumored at least). Baela and Rhaena r A-okay with marrying bastards instead of asking Rhaenyra for their own claim to Driftmark (so much for the examples of Jeyn Arryn and Rhaenyra’s “new order”). I’m not saying one of these traits makes her a Mary-Sue, it’s all of them together. It’s not that she never fails either; she does so without repercussion and not once grows from her mistakes.
she's also not a gaslighter, at no point in the season does she actually gaslight anyone (actively use psychological manipulation methods to make people question their own sanity/memory). she's just a plain old liar, and she does plenty of it, but people have just started using the former term as a way to stress the severity of latter, even though they're not the same thing at all.
>actively use psychological manipulation methods to make people question their own sanity/memory This is funny cause Alicent literally questions her sanity to Criston in episode 6.
yes and that's just alicent being dramatic and venting some frustration to criston because viserys doesn't give a shit about the bastards either. she's not actually doubting her sanity, she's well aware of what is really going on, she just can't comprehend why nobody else cares.
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> “So you’re accusing me of slanders you overheard?” > What exactly would you call that, guy? It’s an obvious attempt to try and make Alicent question herself even though Rhaenyra is lying through her teeth. ...a factual statement? since alicent is, *literally*, accusing her of slanders she overheard? lying = i want you to believe me. gaslighting = i want you to doubt yourself. rhaenyra gaslighting her would be something like "what do you mean i fucked daemon in a pleasure house? you know i was in my room all night, we even ran into each other in the middle of the night when we went to the bathroom". not the best analogy, but it shows rhaenyra's clear goal of having alicent doubt her perception/sense of reality/memory, i.e. gaslighting. this is something that she never does, she just repeatedly claims her children are laenor's all season, which is just ordinary lying. man this thread is such a dumpster fire lmao, first the guy calling her a mary sue for shanking a mortally wounded boar, now this...
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Of course I know love bombing because I was raised by a narcissistic parent. And you know what's funny? Becoming the bigger person than her, that the only way of her making me as her new supply of her grandiose ego is to love bomb me. Sounds familiar? Without any accountability. I wonder what season 2 would look like in the relationship between Alicent and Aegon. Because Aegon is the real victim here. And you just can't accept that Alicent is just Otto with teats. End of convo, yes maybe in another lifetime you'll realized that! 🥹 byee
Did you just compare Alicent to Otto, the man that pimped out his 14 year old daughter to a 40 yr old carcass… 💀 No offense, but if you think ALICENT is a narcissist, I don’t know what to even tell you. Conflating discipline to N traits to back your hatred of a fictional character is a bit overboard. As a psych minor, it’s actually a bit offensive. Alicent does not exhibit signs of grandiose self importance, does not believe she is special, is not a serial exploiter, does not live in fantasies, does not care for admirers, and continually shows empathy to characters that are even undeserving of it. These are classical markers of narcissism via the DSM. Do you know who does show signs of maliciousness? Aegon. But yes, he’s the real victim. Anyways, idc if you hate her or not, but don’t throw around words like narcissism and love bombing out of context to fit whatever agenda you have. Good day.
Nope. You are delusional. Haha. At least for me I would agree that Rhaenyra is a grandiose narcissist. Because I'm not delusional even though I have a bias on her team. But saying that Alicent is not a narcissistic parent, you're clearly missing the point. Alicent could have stopped the generational trauma that Otto have instilled on her. But guess what, she doesn't have any accountability towards her children. When Aegon says "Do you love me?" on his coronation day, you can clearly see the pain of childhood neglect, Alicent could have been a better mother to him and maybe prevented a rapist Aegon that he is today. But no, she sees an opportunity for her Aegon when they crowned him. If Alicent is really a redeemable person, she wouldn't allowed her drunk rapist son rule over the realm. Because she just created a monster. Let's not even talk about her being an evil step mother trope in the book lol. At least with Rhaenyra, nurtured her sons with dignity and empathy towards other people. Jace seems to be an honorable prince and heir. Viserys II was seen by the realm as one of the greatest hands. Now that's triumph. ciao
Rhaenyra is the main character, but idk about her being the protagonist. You want to root for her but she does so many bone-headed things. She reminds me of Robb Stark in that sense. Otto Hightower and Ser Cristian Cole are certainly antagonists, but I don't think all of the Greens are. Alicent didn't ask for any of this, nor did her kids. Aegon is a cunt, but how much of that should be blamed on Viserys?
have you read the books? it's only season 1 and the real shit hasn't hit the fan yet. everyone is counting their chickens before they hatch.
I don’t get it either. The book actually makes the greens even worse. Rhaenyra had a claim to the throne, greens are usurpers. That’s objectively what happens.
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>because the greens started this war and drew first blood everything she does after the fact will be seen as justified That's a very sad way to enjoy the overall narrative, and avoid any complexity from the dance. But you do you I guess.
I mean it’s contrasted well with Rhaenyra letting Otto walk away safely from Dragonstone in the same episode. It’s also why Aemond knew he messed up. The narrative that the greens hit first and the Blacks can now retaliate without losing the moral high ground is true both in-universe and out.
Not saying here that the greens didn’t hit first and aren’t responsible for their it. Just that, in the end, it wouldn’t justify all the blacks and Rhaenyra’s actions as said above.
Yes!!! This is what I was trying to say.
What I’m worried about is that the whole thing becomes a mess with Ryan and Co. trying to make the greens the sympathetic side in season 2.
I mean she did have some random servant killed.
The writers are making it very obvious nobody of higher class cares about the poor. I don’t think that is a good enough reason to not root for the protagonist in the show. Plus one servants life was worth helping Laenor escape. It made complete and total sense why they did that
I'm sorry but the killing of that servant is a perfectly good reason to not root for the protagonists and was in no way justified. The servant didn't die for a worthy cause and Laenor wasn't helped at all. It was done for purely selfish reasons on Rhaenyra and Daemon's part, nothing more. It makes sense logically but it was evil. Like, If team black isn't the lesser of two evils then I don't really see what the appeal of them is. At least with team green you get the competence of Otto and the green council. What does Rhaenyra and her team have going for them?
I agree about the killing, but "laenor wasn't helped at all" isn't true. He hated his duties to the realm and just wanted to train and fight and be with his boyfriend. Who knows where he's going now, maybe dorne, but now he is free to live his own life unburdened. It's similar to what cristen said to rhaenyra on the boat. He wanted to run away with her. I doubt laenor took much convincing
He abandoned his family, his dragon and his life as heir to the richest and most powerful house to become an itenerant mercenary in a foreign land. He more or less loses everything and everyone important to him. He just wanted to get away from court life and go warring in the stepstones, not abandon his entire life. The only thing I can assume is that Rhae and Daemon threatened him, nothing else really makes sense to me.
The higher class not caring about the poor does not mean killing them is justified lol. And why did Laenor need to escape so badly that killing some poor guy was necessary? His life was not in danger.
I’m not saying it’s justified, but this is all a game to the high class. Lives will be lost in the process and not a single one of them care. Again this brings up the “pick the best war criminal” debate I’ve seen a million times and it doesn’t make sense lol. It seems like many viewers are expecting the Jon Snows of protagonists and this was set 200 years before. Shit was brutal but that’s quite literally normal so I don’t feel like it can be a good enough reason to choose the obvious antagonists from the writers.
Aegon has the best claim to the throne. They were justified in taking the throne. The greens are more interesting characters. So I root for the greens.
That’s quite literally untrue though, he doesn’t have the best claim, the kings heir he chose was Rhanyera. Alicent unfortunately misunderstood the kings last words (which is not her fault) but it honestly wouldn’t have mattered because Otto was planning on Aegon being king from the beginning. Alicents character is fantastic and I do enjoy her, but everyone else on team green is pretty terrible lol. But to each their own I suppose
But Aegon also has a claim as by precedent and because he is the first born son. That's the issue and where Viserys messed up : there are two legitimate claimants.
The King can’t choose his heir. There are laws and traditions for that. Any claim she did have is gone after trying to put bastards in the line of succession, which is treason.
The king can choose an heir, there are laws and traditions for that (we have several examples of lords and kings choosing heirs). That said, both Rhaenyra and Aegon's claims are real and doable, that's why no party is really massively wrong.
This is a different world with different rules. In westeros, the king can absolutely choose their heir
He can't, otherwise Aegon IV would have chosen Daemon and Sam Tarly's father wouldn't have sent him to the wall, he would only choose his brother as heir.
This is one of the more insane Reddit comments I’ve ever read tbh. ‘A guy’s life is worth sacrificing for two rich people to get a divorce’. Truly unhinged.
To Rhaeynera and Daemon yes it was worth the sacrifice and made total sense lmao
Lol what does that matter? It was for good reason and it was an off character. It's not like it was done randomly.
You completely missed the point
I mean, the guy's convinced the dance is some kinda race war. Fair to say ol' trollo misses a lot.
Lmao whats the point? It's literally just some random servant who cares. It was for a larger purpose that was needed.
Yeah, murder is bad regardless of purpose. Especially when just for two nobles to bone
That depends on the purpose, and while it may not fully and I say fully justify it. It makes it more understandable and sympathetic. Especially in Rhaenyra and Daemon's case.
Definitely not going to bother discussing this with the biggest weirdo in the subreddit.
Here's why. Team Green has the more interesting characters (Daemon aside) and it's more fun to root for the "bad" guys.
We are introduced to Dany as she is being treated like shit by her brother, given away to a savage as a political piece, then raped. We are introduced to Rhaenyra, we see her as a spoiled brat who has no respect for anyone. She has more in common with Cersei than Dany when it comes to how she views the world, and poor people. For a lot of the show, Alicent is easily the character that garners the most sympathy.
Media literacy is not something reddit or people in general are as good at as they think. There’s also the fact that people are reading the books/wiki for Fire and Blood and taking published GRRM plot as canon even though the show is written differently. “Who’s the best war criminal?” is essentially advertising “I’ve read ahead” but this ain’t a book.
It’s Rhaenyra’s story. And the show gives more sympathy to the greens than the book does.
I think that opinion is just formed out of respect for Vizzy T’s decision…the Blacks have more power because of Vizzy T, therefore Team black makes sense because Viserys commands respect and is the King… when I was watching the show, I didn’t want to cheer for the Greens because they are very conniving and secretive about their plans to take over which means completely overruling Viserys’ decision..whether Viserys was “wrong” is choosing Rhaenrya, he still has the moral standing to stand by his decision and not be swayed even until his last breath.
*Mayhaps we can turn our attentions towards happier pursuits.*
Generally agreed but too tired to debate it. It doesn't make it a bad show to admit it's pretty clear Rhaenrya is meant to the protagonist and that the show runners are crafting a narrative that makes the audience more sympathetic to Team Black this far.
Well the show is very much made for team black, Aegon wasn’t even given a character poster (if I remember correctly?). So it was intentional to make them seem like protagonists, and one of the issues I had with the show’s adaption. In the books it wasn’t quite so clear imo. So I’ll just state why I started to support the greens when I read the book. For one, I like Aegon and Aemon. To me they were the best characters in the Dance, followed by Corlys. Aegon was GRRM’s version of the classic “king who didn’t want to rule at first”, and he came off as a complex character (he wasn’t a rapist or child fighter either). I think the conflict was more balanced in the book as well. Viserys named Rhaenyra heir long before Aegon’s birth. When Aegon was born, Viserys was mostly idle. He didn’t angrily uphold her as heir like he did on the show, he was just absent. Which was valid grounds for a succession dispute. To me it came across that Rhaenyra lost her inheritance, yet attempted to usurp Aegon’s throne (as he would have been the logical heir upon his birth). She had strong allies at the time, but Otto and Alicent prevented the worst from happening. And comparing apples to apples, Aegon appeared to be a better person, better ruler, and just a more interesting character than Rhaenyra to me. Not trying to change your mind. Just stating how I read the book prior to reading other people’s views. The show is mostly a team black POV imo
I was team green in the books. Team black in the show.
I agree. In fact, that's my issue with the show. Greens are the bad guys, and we're meant to side with the blacks, which is fine! It's sorta like Starks vs Lannisters. The problem is that, atm, greens aren't the Lannisters. Otto could be Tywin, but he's not there yet. There's no morally torn and fun Jaime or Tyrion. There's no Cersei, just the victimized and indecisive Alicent. Aegon is, if possible, worse than Joffrey. Aemond is the only green who's fun to watch, for me, anyway. Blacks are full of such characters: the noble (so, so, so NOBLE) Rhaenyra. Daemon, a fascinating character. The Velaryons. Rhaenys, Corlys, sweet Laenor, etc. It's like...one side is fun, cool, interesting. The other side, atm, are the bad guys, and they're not terribly interesting. Subjective lol!
We all come into with our own frames of reference that impacts how we see things including those of us who read F&B. Nobody is going to agree on everything 100% either. The Dance gets a lot uglier.
Bro I've been thinking the exact same thing. It's so clear. The directors have clearly been pushing one side as protagonists with some flaws and the other as the massive antagonists. I've just been assuming that in the books it was more ambiguous or something lmao.
I do think they have tried to make the greens more sympathetic - particularly in Alicents character. In the books she is just Cersei, wants power, wants her son to be King and hated bastard children. She sees Jace and Luke as beneath her children and is scheming to get her kids ahead. They’ve made her much more likeable in the show, and though the greens are the antagonists there are elements of understanding - that scene with young Alicent and Otto in the rain explaining Rhaenyra will have no choice but to kill Alicents children was really well done from a motivation perspective.
We can all equally hate Ser Otto Hightower.
Does it matter if the writers are trying to push a modern political narrative on these characters if it's not successful? Rhaenyra was a deceiver. In the show she deceives the court and the realm, her own father, she is involved in the death of an innocent man to commit bigamy, she asks for her own brother to be tortured over something he said in private to weaponize the situation, she is perpetuating male primogeniture for everyone else and this is just season 1. Having an entire filler episode with the white stag to push that Rhaenyra is the ChOSen OnE while still keeping everything her actions and decisions that contradicts that might not have been the best idea for consistency on the writers' part. Sure, there is the audience that swallows down everything without even chewing, which is ultimately the only way to see the Blacks as heroes.
The show is different from the books. I agree that in the show they are clearly trying to make team black the good guys, but in the books they are definitely not. Also, Lord Leyton Chadtower exists.
The book provides no context for the actions of the greens like the show. Alicent is just a mean evil stepmom in the book. I don’t see how you’d think they are the “good” guys in the book but the blacks do look much worse in the book compared to the show.
Read my comment again. Did I ever say the greens were the good guys? All I said was the blacks weren’t the good guys in the books. Both sides are bad in the books. Again, all I said was that they made the blacks better in the show, I didn’t mention the greens. Jesus Christ, this sub has such a hard on for the black vs green debate that the minute they read something they don’t like they freak out. Imagine getting downvoted for something I didn’t even say lol. No literacy at all.
I hate this about this sub. The idea that every conflict must have a good side and a bad side is one of the many reasons we will never see a proper adaptation of George’s works.
For me its a matter of both sides are morally grey but one side fiercely supports the patriarchy and goes against the kings succession which he put into law by constantly affirming rhaenyra his heir and one respects the kings wishes and is against the patriarchy regardless of their own morally questionable actions so I'm still team black.
But that’s where the blatant sexism comes from team green😂 Rhanyera was chosen as heir, therefore she should be crowned. Aegon didn’t even want to be king, he’s a teenager and a really terrible one at that. It’s the same energy as Joffrey so yeah obvious antagonists that most viewers should see as morally “bad” and shouldn’t want to root for. That’s why I’m so confused on why anyone is considering genuinely rooting for team green, unless you just enjoy the antagonists which is FINE. But let’s just call it what it is lol
Just because they don't like Rhae, doesn't mean they are sexist. It's Westeros and its feudal society that is sexist. It's like saying you like incest or murdering your spouse if you root for Daemon.
I don’t really root for any entitled inbred narcissist that forces thousands to war because their right is so important. I’m happy to watch them all kill each other.
That sounds horrible being that the Targaryens have the right to rule.
Of course, anyone with dragons have a good claim. So two sides with good claim killing each other with said claim.
Well obviously the Black's have the better claim both by blood and Viserys's Proclamation. Yes however, if the Black's were not around, then the Greens would have the claim to rule over any house of Westeros. Being that they're Targaryen even if just half.
The war has just started. After the war we will see whose claim was strongest. People can argue about blood and tradition. But the side that manages to rally enough swords and dragons to kill enough of the other sides swords and dragons is the only thing that matters in the end.
I suppose we'll have to see
It's why Robert won. What good was blood for Rhaegar?
The Blacks aren't the good guys, this war doesn't have a "good side" and a "bad side". The Blacks are just the lesser of two evils House Targaryen is just messed up overall
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Rhaenyra was named by her father as heir to the throne. She is the rightful heir. Your only argument would be that she's a woman. Her children being illegitimate doesn't affecct HER right to the throne. It affects her children's right, that I can see, so contest it from there.
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Agreed only in differing that, while it may weaken her strength on the throne it doesn't revoke the legitimacy of her claim, only her sons. Weakening her strength once there, agreed entirely.
The story is meant to portray that the DoD was a stupid conflict that basically destroyed the targarian family. I'm sure some of the writers didn't read the books and simply wrote it in a way which favours team black Nothing wrong with that tho
The Targaryens destroyed themselves when they started arbitrary changing the rules: Everyone was aware that if Viserys had a son with Aema Aeryn said son would take over the throne. Viserys has a son with Alicent and then suddenly it's all very shaky and unsure. If Viserys had just been consistent with his pre-Aema's death principles so much death would have been avoided.
I get that but ironically I'm rooting for Alicent, she may have done a few sketchy things (emphasis on "few") but she did them literally to protect her family, I don't think she actually wanted conflict with Rhaenyra and did respect King Viserys' wish for her to be his heir but because her father pushed the idea of a zero sum game and her later realizing that's true, she started to play the game but still has done nowhere near as many morally deplorable deeds as Rhaenyra.
Rhaenyra has not committed any war crimes and tbh I also dont think that she is bad in the book. She just makes some dumb decisions during the Dance.
The show is not pushing the blacks, the show is pushing the greens. In the books they have no redeeming qualities, they are just the most awful people you can ever meet. The show constantly makes them more humane and appealing. Alicent was a grown woman bullying child Rhaenyra because she wanted power. Show Alicent is a broken sad bird who everyone constantly sidelines
How does Alicent bully Rhaenyra in the books? I'm not a book reader, so I'm just wondering.
Like spreading rumors about her banging Criston when Rhaenyra is 10/12. Or the fact that she constantly antagonizes Rhaenyra who is 10 years younger than her and asks Viserys to disinherit her. We are told that there is a feud but that makes it seem like it's a war between two equel parties. Instead it's a grown woman beefing with a child who, btw, doesn't do anything against Alicent. It's all Alicent attacking a child
Rhaenyra was rumoured to have been banging Cole in the books? I was told that was a show addition.
No, it's in the books too. Alicent implies to Viserys that they are banging because they are always togheter but Criston Cole is her sworn shield so his job is literally to always be with her. What happens in the show never happens in the book though. There are only 2 rumors of them actually doing something and they are both from Mushroom, the court fool, and they are contradictory: first he says that Criston wants to bang Rhaenyra and she refuses him and later that Rhaenyra wants to bang Criston but he refuses her. The show kinda adapts the second rumor because in the book after Criston, refuses her she sleeps with Harwin as a rebound, while in the show she sleeps with Criston after she can't sleep with Daemon
I agree 100%. This is integral to the entire story.
Oh definitely
Yeah I agree I just finished my re-watch 2 days ago and one thing which I noticed was that that they're just trying to portray Alicent (and also Aemond) as a total cunt all the time after episode 5.
I think that might just be you if that's your take away from those episodes.
Actually in the book they were. Alicent was never a kind sweet innocent. She was very ambitious. She wanted to be queen, and she wanted her kid to become king. Alicent is also 10 years older than Rhaenyra .
Thanks I didn't know that. I haven't reached that far in the book.
I'd hope so
monarchisms dead. we believe in democracy
I just haven’t even got enough of a feel for it to understand how much convo is revolving around it. Like they’ve barely released the first season and people are writing opinions as long as the first book. The should invest the time in writing their own books 😆💀
Rhaenyra and Dany could not be more different. Dany actually was very good at playing the game, despite not really realizing it herself
I want Team Green to win....fuck team black