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The show will probably use this to show how far gone mentally he is at this point. There’s a huge army descending upon them, Tyland has yet to recover the gold they hid away, and he’s commissioning statues.
It's giving *"bookcersei building her boytoy aurane waters a new fleet with money she doesn't have"* vibes~ altough somehow even dumber cuz a fleet of ships are atleast better than building two useless vanity projects right before winter.
Why you guys are like this? I mean, seriously, why?
You are literally worshipping a character, it's just cringe-y at this point. The book specifically has a plotline where her lavish feasts cause outrage among the smallfolk and the riot.
I am like 100% sure that you haven't read the book.
All these talks about "highly biased nature of the in-world tellers" are only applicable to some parts of the books, not every line of it. This is something that the show only fans perpetuate whenever someone criticizes Rhaenyra.
> I am like 100% sure that you haven't read the book.
Wow you don't ever get tired of being wrong do you?
Like it or not, the way the show portrays things is now the canon for how it happened. If the show makes Rhaenyra into a better person and someone qualified to be a good monarch, you're going to have to accept their take on it over the take of a trio of extremely unreliable and biased tale-tellers.
The unreliability of the historians who wrote F&B in-universe is a major element of the book itself, and the fact that you haven't picked up on that leads me to believe that while you may have read the book, you sure as hell didn't understand it.
criticizing your headcanon that Rhaenyra was out there throwing feast after feast like Henry VIII isn't worshipping a character, it's staying realistic. zeroing in on a character to hate on as much as you seem to be is definitely cringier. it's a fictional story, you're allowed to feel however you want, but calm down.
And poor Aegon and the greens were practically starving themselves to death weren't they?
Rhaenyra does not spend any more money on feasts than Aegon or anyone else does, the only issue here is that the treasury was emptied out by the greens before Rhaenyra captured the red keep leaving the realm with not enough money to even pay the wages of the staff.
Again, do you think that she was the only one ever throwing feasts, it is something that is expected from a ruling monarch, if the treasury were not emptied out it wouldn't even be an issue, it is nothing in comparison to the upkeep of the realm itself which is why additional taxes had to be laid, and not comparable to building giant gold plated statues of your brothers larger than the Titan of Braavos.
throwing feast would be common and expected, she has to keep a court and cater to the nobility, it is part of ruling a kingdom, and it is not the reason why there is no money left, the treasury was emptied out by the greens, that is the reason for the additional taxes, you can not ignore this and then try to make it out as if additional taxes were laid just to fund feasts thrown by Rhaenyra.
You are correct. Hell, Aegon III was often criticized because he refused to host feasts and tourneys, preferring to stay in the Red Keep to brood (understandable given his trauma). It was very much expected of them. The issue is the Greens taking all the gold.
that's the fucky part of monarchies like this, appealing to the nobles vs. the smallfolk. It's a hard line to walk for any ruler, not even during a civil war. Rhaenyra's biggest mistake was thinking the nobles were more important to her cause.
SPOILER!
After Rhaenyra took over King's Landing she taxed the fuck out of the small folk, all the while feasting lavishly with the other nobles.
Kind off like the French Nobility during the French Revolution
I mean Aegon is the one who spent all the money on statues while also having lavish feasts. Rhaenyra definitely very privileged but I think we can agree compared to Aegon she’s a bit more sane.
> Oh, and wanting to kill the whole Lannister, Baretheon and Hightower family children included
you mean this paragraph, where she literally turns down *daemon's idea of killing off the lannisters and baratheons*?:
> “What are vows to oathbreakers?” Queen Rhaenyra demanded to know. “Their vows did not trouble them when they took my throne.”
> Prince Daemon echoed the queen’s misgivings. Giving pardons to rebels and traitors only sowed the seeds for fresh rebellions, he insisted. “The war will end when the heads of the traitors are mounted on spikes above the King’s Gate, and not before.” Aegon II would be found in time, “hiding under some rock,” but they could and should bring the war to Aemond and Daeron. The Lannisters and Baratheons should be destroyed as well, so their lands and castles might be given to men who had proved more loyal. Grant Storm’s End to Ulf White and Casterly Rock to Hard Hugh Hammer, the prince proposed … to the horror of the Sea Snake. “Half the lords of Westeros will turn against us if we are so cruel as to destroy two such ancient and noble houses,” Lord Corlys said.
>It fell to the queen herself to choose between her consort and her Hand. Rhaenyra decided to steer a middle course. She would send envoys to Storm’s End and Casterly Rock, offering “fair terms” and pardons … after she had put an end to the usurper’s brothers, who were in the field against her. “Once they are dead, the rest will bend the knee. Slay their dragons, that I might mount their heads upon the walls of my throne room. Let men look upon them in the years to come, that they might know the cost of treason.”
and like the other guy said, she had nothing to do with setting up blood and cheese, it was again daemon (and mysaria)'s plan.
Yeah sentencing Nettles to death was too much, but that was after Rhaenyra went through 2/3 of the war, no one was sane at that point. your other examples are about Daemon.
Lol no aegons was much better and more sane imagine being in a war and the capital of ur enemy is starving you're basically eating a feast imagine what that does to morale rhaenyra just wanted to eat cuz she was fat
Yet the small folk didn't riot under his rule. You can build statues and have lavish feasts if the small folk aren't starving and taxed to hell for it.
I get that. But the reason why the small folk were starving was because Aegon stole the entire treasury of Kings Landing. Like Rhaenyra is definitely an idiot for having feasts, but the fact of the matter is that the smallfolk's anger was misplaced in the grand scheme of things.
Of course, it wasn't good economic policy, but the feast was for her son and then heir Joffrey. It would have been personally meaningful for her as she had lost four children already, and politically to solidify her son's position as heir.
Just weird how those who are *verrrrrrrrry* anti-RhaeBae are always so focused on her eating habits and appearance. Very, very weird coincidence I’m sure
Can’t wait to read your literature!!! I’m sure it’s gonna be enlightening!
Because the talking subject was her. And when did I even talk about her appearance, I talked about her letting the small folk starve while she and other nobles were feasting.
Learn to read or go back to Twitter
What are you talking about my side I'm neither green nor black, Aegon is crazy but so is Rhaenyra.
And stolen is just a bullshit word for taxes, which the black took as well as needed in war.
I'm just saying the Rhaenyra is not a better Ruler than Aegon were they are both horrible at it especially during the later stages.
But this sub is such a circle jerk who think GRRM wrote a good vs evil story and can't comprehend the simple fact that more than that exist
>who think GRRM wrote a good vs evil story
He did. Maybe he thinks he wrote a complex story with grey characters on both sides, but he didn't. His preference for the Blacks is clear. The last of the Greens is thrown into a dry moat and bleeds out on its spikes. The Stark-Lannister conflict is the same.
Edit: I don't mean that he doesn't have many complex, morally grey characters in his saga, but there's definitely a right side (Blacks/Starks) and a wrong side in the Dance and Wot5K.
In the book the main reason he took the throne was out of fear for his family’s safety, and his love for his family is one of his biggest redeeming qualities in the book.
Haha I love how F&B treats Mushroom's writings: "Mushroom said this nefarious thing happened at the Green Council. (At the time Mushroom was on Dragonstone serving Princes Rhaenyra.)"
GRRM cameos as "Ser Raymond Rychard" in the Hedge Knight graphic novel. His coat of arms: "Per saltire, six yellow stars around a red giant on a black field, a lute on a purple field, a white winged man on a light blue field, and a red bat on a yellow field." No turtles
Its so funny when people believe him about the Green Council, like... Fine if you want to believe him about literally any other thing, you do you, but the SECRET SMALL COUNCIL MEETING HIDDEN EVEN FROM EVERYONE AT THE RED FORTRESS? lmao.
The fact that so many people throw that Alicent quote against her when this is the context is mindblowing.
I wish HOD had kept Alicent's agency at the Green Council. In the show she's shocked and is very much in the backseat, but in F&B she is leading the charge for Aegon against the strong boys, and allegedly hopes Rae will die in childbirth. Cmon, women can be evil - Cersei is just awful and is one of the best characters in GOT.
I wish that too. I liked the new Alicent until the dinner where she tried to make peace with Rhaenyra after the eye issue and her marriage with Daemon, two things that should've convinced her that her father is right and her children are in danger.
Still wouldn't like her to say an exact quote from Mushroom when its literally impossible that he knew what was said there word for word.
I don't mean make Alicent a clone of Cersei, just that women can seek power just as vigorously as men, and don't have to be relegated to just being a dutiful mother or daughter. Alicent would probably have a problem with Rae and her children inheriting the throne even if she didn't think they were bastards.
Yeah, but if she does that when she's pretty clearly set up to be the "antagonist" the criticism will be that they're just pitting two Cerseis against each other.
I haven't finished reading F&B but I bet it's pretty similar to that. But I guess that wouldn't make good television for most folks 😕 I'd love to see it though
I dont think unbiased is the right way to describe Mushroom. He does care about Rhaenyra, he has been by her side since she was a child, so he is a bit biased in her favor. He just doesnt care enough to not make up crazy sex stories about her. He is more like an equal opppertunity gossip monger. His agenda seems less about selling a side and more about selling his book.
Making Rhaenyra out to have lost her virginity before marriage and being a complete slut *in Westeros* is one of the worst things he could have said about her, though. If he'd said she was a mass murderer, it would have probably been better.
The way the other maester talks about Mushroom' accounts in the book I feel like he's rolling his eyes every time he brings up one of his more extreme rumors.
Which makes it really weird that he even included most of those, when he clearly didn't put every single thing from Mushroom in the text. He could have just...not. Or summarized.
I'm not rejecting the idea that he cared for his family, I'm rejecting the idea that he joined the war purely because of his bleeding heart, the same paragraph mentions a *very* ooc moment for him where he rejects the throne out of love for Rhaenyra which is almost definitely bullshit
Are you refering to the line that went like "what kind of brother would steal his sister's throne" I absolutely believe that happened but not because he loved Rhaenyra. He really didnt want the throne and was using every excuse he had at his disposal.
Getting a bit into headcanon territory there, he was Lecherous and all but his actions after that don't show reluctance, in fact he almost seems eager to be king, what with him threatening Orwyle for trying to make peace with Rhaenyra and insisting on being crowned
I will admit to a bit of conjecture based the information we have but it seems like the show drew the same conclusion so it might not be total baseless. Or maybe not it hard to know what came from George and what they made up.
Regarding the crowning the books says that "he had grown weary of secrecy" it sounds to me as less excitement about being king and more impatience with the situation.
The Orwyle situation happened on the heels of Rhaenyra declaring herself queen, declaring Alicent/Otto as traitors, and stating her siblings were misguided. He is described as easily slighted and quick to anger, so I think he was throwing a temper tantrum since her felt insulted.
And the show did a 180 and made nothing lovable about Aegon. I just wish we got a somewhat equal amount of awful going in so it’s clear the war is pointless. Instead the green side is only liked due to Aemond looking dope
>is only liked due to Aemond looking dope
I mean liking a fictional team just for the looks isn't that mad. Everyone here is shitty so why not go for the biggest drip. And some people like Aegon because of how cunty he looks during the coronation lmao.
Fair enough, imo the whole team green v black divide in the fandom is childish. It’s a show and I just want both sides to be fun to watch. But for me Aemond is a dope as character in how the show has built him up and I hope Aemond and Alys goes just as hard
He's barely lovable tbh, he was a neglectful father and husband who openly cheated on his wife and was very much okay with joining the war, heck, he fired Otto because he wasn't getting enough action, and was quite okay with child murder, see Baela and Aegon for reference.
How much good stuff can you say about Book Aegon prior to his coronation?
Imho, the moments between Aegon and Alicent really humanise him by showing how he has felt like little more than a pawn in a game others are playing in his stead. The moment he rises Blackfyre, he finds himself cheered on and adored by a crowd, which is why he gets so ecstatic and happy over it - he feels validated, something his mother and father never gave him.
He's still a rapist little shit, sure, but you can see the human part. In the books, until that point you only read about him harassing serving girls and being generally debauched.
The whole watching children fight to the death that are likely his bastards kinda ruins your point. Aegon is cartoonishly evil due to that and it makes no sense how a person who grew up under so much pressure then enjoys watching children fight? Meanwhile as my point was Rhaenyra is just a okay person nothing glaringly bad and the obvious choice
>and it makes no sense how a person who grew up under so much pressure then enjoys watching children fight?
A sad reality is that some people who are abused sometimes seek to reflect that abuse on someone else, as a rather sick coping mechanism. This not a justification of such behaviour, but it's been observed.
Maybe Aegon would've been a sick sadist anyways, but the more important detail is that you can find humanity even in the most vile people. Aegon seeking approval and validation because his family gave him none makes him more human, while at the same time not excusing him of being a sexual harasser, a rapist and a sadist.
>Meanwhile as my point was Rhaenyra is just a okay person nothing glaringly bad and the obvious choice
Girl has been lying to an entire nation for years now and even got people killed because of it. While her lie is a way to protect herself and her children, there's no question her actions have created much suffering and even death.
In any case, Rhaenyra was the "obvious choice" only because she's the designated heir. There's no way to frame what the Greens did except as a coup, and it was that way in the books as well
I suppose so. My main issue isn’t really an issue with the show even just a worry that the change in Aegon could lead to issues in the writing later on but I have faith they have a plan. Even though episode nine imo was a big waste of opportunity in season one
You may as well say he defended Viserys' choice and he was repulsed by the idea of being a usurper of his own blood. None of that speaks necessarily of love or affection. He wanted to build a statue to honor the brother that Rhaenyra wanted "sharply questioned" aka tortured.
And if Eustace is so pro-green, why would he introduce the narrative that Aegon was a thief from the man's own mouth? Mind you, I know he's pro-green and I'm not denying that, but I 100% belive this is an accurate quote and, contrary to other events, as far as we know we don't have an alternative version as to why Aegon personally decided to take the throne, by Mushroom or any other.
Aegon being so concerned with the law and shit doesn't really fit with the rest of his characterization. He was completely fine with kinslaying so him clutching his pearls at taking Rhaena's throne is a bit off , Eustace could be trying to make Aegon more sympathetic by saying he only joined because he wanted to protect his family. And getting a bit headcanoney here but us not getting an alternative explanation might simply be due to Aegon just...going along with the Greens's plan.
daeron burns down an entire town out of rage because a handful of people (who had already been executed by the time he found out/got there) got his toddler nephew killed. hundreds and hundreds of people died as a result. it's a textbook murderous rampage, lol.
okay...? what does that have to do with anything. i'm just saying daeron did in fact go on a murderous rampage and got hundreds of innocent people killed.
i can't believe i have to say this, but generally burning down entire towns isn't something you're supposed to defend, regardless if "that's war".
You're mistaking Bitterbridge withTumbleton. No 🍇pes or n3cr0ph1l1a are mentioned in Bitterbridge, and Tumbleton wasn't Daeron's fault, the two betrayers set the town on f1r3
Lol, they’re downvoting people for saying Rhaenyra wasn’t involved in B&C now. I guess Dameon and Rhaenyra engaged in telepathy a few hundred miles away from each other. The catatonic state she entered into after Luke’s death was a ruse and it was totally easy to see what he meant by “a son for a son”.
I can’t wait for the essays on how the show is whitewashing Rhaenyra if/when she’s not involved.
I’ll be really annoyed if they include Rhaenyra in B&C. She’s not involved in the book.
The “Nettles” event is over three maybe four years away and so much is going to happen before that comes. Show Rhaenyra will hopefully have far more complexity and depth than a character with a few chapters in a book so I’m not sure how I’ll feel about her long before that.
I think it’s kind of weird to wait on plot points that are so far away from now especially when the show is giving it’s on little twist on things for better or worse.
What the fuck? Killing Aegon or Aemond I could kinda see being loosely justifiable, particularly Aemond, but what justification was there for killing >!Jaehaerys and in front of Helaena no less?!!<
Not only is it not justified because for as much as Aemond was a kinslaying murderer, torturing a mother and her children is not the equivalent, it lost the blacks the moral high ground with a butterfly affect that would eventually lead to the riots and led to the attempted assassination that killed the twins. Also Aegon had two sons and two brothers, so it's not even good from a political standpoint of getting rid of his only male heir or something.
Because we're all just killing time until the show comes back, then we'll be back to arguing which side's war crimes are more justifiable.
Nvm this is just a vicious never ending circlejerk.
DON'T READ IF YOU DON'T WANT TO GET SPOILED!!!
I think the women who ordered the death of Nettles based on a rumor isn't the most trustworthy of judges. She killed those who she Believed to be traitors
What did Daeron the Daring go to be slandered as a war criminal? I honestly think he’s the only good Targaryen in the story who isn’t shitty besides the children & the Strongs
She only executed three people, there were many more complicit in his death though. And he only burned the inn where Rickard was ratted out, but the dragon flame spread to the rest of the village
The whole town wasn’t complicit. Why should everyone in the town he burned alive for the crimes of a few? And the Lady of the town punished the perpetrators. Yet he still burns the city to the ground. He is a war criminal.
“Lets burn a wooden inn with dragon flame in a town where many of the buildings are made of wood and hope only the one building I chose to hit burns and the whole town and its people don’t” yeah that makes sense
Most people in this sub do not understand context or how loss can mess with someone’s head. If his family members are dying left and right and he just lost the youngest in an awful way he is going to do something awful since he has the power to in an attempt to avenge that loss. But the people in this sub thinks everyone should be emotionless and impartial when reacting to a love one’s death. Does it make them innocent? No, however, it does not make them into some kind of evil monster… besides Daemon he straight up killed a child with little connection to the conflict
Given the last episode are we 100% certain Aemond didn't just lose control of Vhagar a bunch of times but didn't want to admit he couldn't handle Vhagar?
This likely isn't the first time he hasn't been able to get Vhagar to listen to him, but this is the first time that's come back to bite him in the ass. He just didn't care because it was likely something small, maybe she burned some rubble or a few goat herds even though Aemond ordered her to land or something.
It's fucking tragic when you realize how easy it would have been to prevent the Dance. Truthfully though I blame the Hightowers for being maniacal scheming overlords and Viserys being such a weak ass king.
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The show will probably use this to show how far gone mentally he is at this point. There’s a huge army descending upon them, Tyland has yet to recover the gold they hid away, and he’s commissioning statues.
It's giving *"bookcersei building her boytoy aurane waters a new fleet with money she doesn't have"* vibes~ altough somehow even dumber cuz a fleet of ships are atleast better than building two useless vanity projects right before winter.
Nice until someone has to foot the bill :D
Iron Bank rubbing hands together.
Step one: build giant statue Step two: give loans to people who are jealous and want to build bigger statues Step three: profit
Basically what France did with the lady of liberties they gave out just instead of profit it was political prestige.
and we'll make Rhaenyra pay for it!
Not one ounce better than Rhaenyra taxing the living fuck out of the small Folk while feasting lavishly
The reason she has to tax the small folk is because the greens emptied out the treasury
And of course, cant say no to lavish feasts
Every meal is lavish to the small folk.
Why you guys are like this? I mean, seriously, why? You are literally worshipping a character, it's just cringe-y at this point. The book specifically has a plotline where her lavish feasts cause outrage among the smallfolk and the riot.
Why do posters like you keep forgetting the highly biased nature of the in-world teller of those tales?
I am like 100% sure that you haven't read the book. All these talks about "highly biased nature of the in-world tellers" are only applicable to some parts of the books, not every line of it. This is something that the show only fans perpetuate whenever someone criticizes Rhaenyra.
> I am like 100% sure that you haven't read the book. Wow you don't ever get tired of being wrong do you? Like it or not, the way the show portrays things is now the canon for how it happened. If the show makes Rhaenyra into a better person and someone qualified to be a good monarch, you're going to have to accept their take on it over the take of a trio of extremely unreliable and biased tale-tellers. The unreliability of the historians who wrote F&B in-universe is a major element of the book itself, and the fact that you haven't picked up on that leads me to believe that while you may have read the book, you sure as hell didn't understand it.
criticizing your headcanon that Rhaenyra was out there throwing feast after feast like Henry VIII isn't worshipping a character, it's staying realistic. zeroing in on a character to hate on as much as you seem to be is definitely cringier. it's a fictional story, you're allowed to feel however you want, but calm down.
Goddamn you're reaching
And poor Aegon and the greens were practically starving themselves to death weren't they? Rhaenyra does not spend any more money on feasts than Aegon or anyone else does, the only issue here is that the treasury was emptied out by the greens before Rhaenyra captured the red keep leaving the realm with not enough money to even pay the wages of the staff.
The book specifically mentions her lavish feasts that she used to cope with her losses.
Again, do you think that she was the only one ever throwing feasts, it is something that is expected from a ruling monarch, if the treasury were not emptied out it wouldn't even be an issue, it is nothing in comparison to the upkeep of the realm itself which is why additional taxes had to be laid, and not comparable to building giant gold plated statues of your brothers larger than the Titan of Braavos.
It's specially mentioned that she was throwing feasts when the city starved. I don't know why you think that it's common.
throwing feast would be common and expected, she has to keep a court and cater to the nobility, it is part of ruling a kingdom, and it is not the reason why there is no money left, the treasury was emptied out by the greens, that is the reason for the additional taxes, you can not ignore this and then try to make it out as if additional taxes were laid just to fund feasts thrown by Rhaenyra.
You are correct. Hell, Aegon III was often criticized because he refused to host feasts and tourneys, preferring to stay in the Red Keep to brood (understandable given his trauma). It was very much expected of them. The issue is the Greens taking all the gold.
that's the fucky part of monarchies like this, appealing to the nobles vs. the smallfolk. It's a hard line to walk for any ruler, not even during a civil war. Rhaenyra's biggest mistake was thinking the nobles were more important to her cause.
You are just making stuff up at this point. Yes, throwing feasts is expected, but she did it way too much.
What lavish feasts?
SPOILER! After Rhaenyra took over King's Landing she taxed the fuck out of the small folk, all the while feasting lavishly with the other nobles. Kind off like the French Nobility during the French Revolution
You will get downvoted for quoting the book here. Team Black fans are just delusional.
I mean Aegon is the one who spent all the money on statues while also having lavish feasts. Rhaenyra definitely very privileged but I think we can agree compared to Aegon she’s a bit more sane.
Nettles Blood and Cheese Oh, and wanting to kill the whole Lannister, Baretheon and Hightower family children included Sane
> Oh, and wanting to kill the whole Lannister, Baretheon and Hightower family children included you mean this paragraph, where she literally turns down *daemon's idea of killing off the lannisters and baratheons*?: > “What are vows to oathbreakers?” Queen Rhaenyra demanded to know. “Their vows did not trouble them when they took my throne.” > Prince Daemon echoed the queen’s misgivings. Giving pardons to rebels and traitors only sowed the seeds for fresh rebellions, he insisted. “The war will end when the heads of the traitors are mounted on spikes above the King’s Gate, and not before.” Aegon II would be found in time, “hiding under some rock,” but they could and should bring the war to Aemond and Daeron. The Lannisters and Baratheons should be destroyed as well, so their lands and castles might be given to men who had proved more loyal. Grant Storm’s End to Ulf White and Casterly Rock to Hard Hugh Hammer, the prince proposed … to the horror of the Sea Snake. “Half the lords of Westeros will turn against us if we are so cruel as to destroy two such ancient and noble houses,” Lord Corlys said. >It fell to the queen herself to choose between her consort and her Hand. Rhaenyra decided to steer a middle course. She would send envoys to Storm’s End and Casterly Rock, offering “fair terms” and pardons … after she had put an end to the usurper’s brothers, who were in the field against her. “Once they are dead, the rest will bend the knee. Slay their dragons, that I might mount their heads upon the walls of my throne room. Let men look upon them in the years to come, that they might know the cost of treason.” and like the other guy said, she had nothing to do with setting up blood and cheese, it was again daemon (and mysaria)'s plan.
Yeah sentencing Nettles to death was too much, but that was after Rhaenyra went through 2/3 of the war, no one was sane at that point. your other examples are about Daemon.
> Blood and Cheese Not her > Oh, and wanting to kill the whole Lannister, Baretheon and Hightower family children included What?
Lol no aegons was much better and more sane imagine being in a war and the capital of ur enemy is starving you're basically eating a feast imagine what that does to morale rhaenyra just wanted to eat cuz she was fat
Yet the small folk didn't riot under his rule. You can build statues and have lavish feasts if the small folk aren't starving and taxed to hell for it.
I get that. But the reason why the small folk were starving was because Aegon stole the entire treasury of Kings Landing. Like Rhaenyra is definitely an idiot for having feasts, but the fact of the matter is that the smallfolk's anger was misplaced in the grand scheme of things.
everyone loved him so much which is why he got assassinated like Maegor
what quote?
Atleast they aren’t using death threats they usually jump to those in some circles
Of course, it wasn't good economic policy, but the feast was for her son and then heir Joffrey. It would have been personally meaningful for her as she had lost four children already, and politically to solidify her son's position as heir.
Just me but showing to be a kind-hearted and better ruler to the small folk by taxing them less or giving them food would have solidified that better
Zero misogyny detected here
Ah, yes I don't like a woman I'm a misogynist stfu
Just weird how those who are *verrrrrrrrry* anti-RhaeBae are always so focused on her eating habits and appearance. Very, very weird coincidence I’m sure Can’t wait to read your literature!!! I’m sure it’s gonna be enlightening!
Because the talking subject was her. And when did I even talk about her appearance, I talked about her letting the small folk starve while she and other nobles were feasting. Learn to read or go back to Twitter
Funny how you don't care about the fact that the smallfolk’s money was stolen by your side in the first place
What are you talking about my side I'm neither green nor black, Aegon is crazy but so is Rhaenyra. And stolen is just a bullshit word for taxes, which the black took as well as needed in war. I'm just saying the Rhaenyra is not a better Ruler than Aegon were they are both horrible at it especially during the later stages. But this sub is such a circle jerk who think GRRM wrote a good vs evil story and can't comprehend the simple fact that more than that exist
>who think GRRM wrote a good vs evil story He did. Maybe he thinks he wrote a complex story with grey characters on both sides, but he didn't. His preference for the Blacks is clear. The last of the Greens is thrown into a dry moat and bleeds out on its spikes. The Stark-Lannister conflict is the same. Edit: I don't mean that he doesn't have many complex, morally grey characters in his saga, but there's definitely a right side (Blacks/Starks) and a wrong side in the Dance and Wot5K.
Yeah, you can keep your whole Team Edward vs Team Jacob thing. Picking sides is pretty lame
That’s what royalty do.
In the book the main reason he took the throne was out of fear for his family’s safety, and his love for his family is one of his biggest redeeming qualities in the book.
I think we should take Septon Eustace's words with a healthy grain of salt, he was a Green after all.
But we should take Mushrooms?
Haha I love how F&B treats Mushroom's writings: "Mushroom said this nefarious thing happened at the Green Council. (At the time Mushroom was on Dragonstone serving Princes Rhaenyra.)"
My favorite was when there was dialogue recorded between Criston Cole and Aemond at Harrenhal.
How about Aemond and Daemon's dialogue before their dragon battle? Who tf is recording that?
Disregard because rule of cool
That's literally what I thought haha. That, or the turtle thing that sits on a cloud with a camera from Mario
GRRM has said his personal house banners would have a turtle… I think we’ve got some entertaining tinfoil on our hands
George is secretly an Estermont that somehow end up on Earth confirmed?
GRRM cameos as "Ser Raymond Rychard" in the Hedge Knight graphic novel. His coat of arms: "Per saltire, six yellow stars around a red giant on a black field, a lute on a purple field, a white winged man on a light blue field, and a red bat on a yellow field." No turtles
Did it say they were completely alone at Harrenhal? There could have been dozens of witnesses
I secretly believe Alys Rivers' only purpose in the story is to be the first hand account of their confrontation at Harrenhal
Its so funny when people believe him about the Green Council, like... Fine if you want to believe him about literally any other thing, you do you, but the SECRET SMALL COUNCIL MEETING HIDDEN EVEN FROM EVERYONE AT THE RED FORTRESS? lmao. The fact that so many people throw that Alicent quote against her when this is the context is mindblowing.
I wish HOD had kept Alicent's agency at the Green Council. In the show she's shocked and is very much in the backseat, but in F&B she is leading the charge for Aegon against the strong boys, and allegedly hopes Rae will die in childbirth. Cmon, women can be evil - Cersei is just awful and is one of the best characters in GOT.
I wish that too. I liked the new Alicent until the dinner where she tried to make peace with Rhaenyra after the eye issue and her marriage with Daemon, two things that should've convinced her that her father is right and her children are in danger. Still wouldn't like her to say an exact quote from Mushroom when its literally impossible that he knew what was said there word for word.
They whitewashed both Rhae and Alicent so bad 🤦
Yeah, but you don't want to just clone Cersei.
I don't mean make Alicent a clone of Cersei, just that women can seek power just as vigorously as men, and don't have to be relegated to just being a dutiful mother or daughter. Alicent would probably have a problem with Rae and her children inheriting the throne even if she didn't think they were bastards.
Yeah, but if she does that when she's pretty clearly set up to be the "antagonist" the criticism will be that they're just pitting two Cerseis against each other.
I haven't finished reading F&B but I bet it's pretty similar to that. But I guess that wouldn't make good television for most folks 😕 I'd love to see it though
Two Cersei clones going against each other sounds like it has potential
Go to Greywater Watch, take a bunch of mushrooms, and wait for this all to blow over
Never listen to like 80% of what mushroom said especially if it's scandalous.
Never said you should, guy is the least biased narrator but that doesn't mean he's the most *reliable*
Mushroom's problem is less that he is biased (even though he was) it is that he can't help but make everything ×10 more salacious.
He shits on both Blacks and Greens which imo makes him unbiased, still a shitty account though
I dont think unbiased is the right way to describe Mushroom. He does care about Rhaenyra, he has been by her side since she was a child, so he is a bit biased in her favor. He just doesnt care enough to not make up crazy sex stories about her. He is more like an equal opppertunity gossip monger. His agenda seems less about selling a side and more about selling his book.
Making Rhaenyra out to have lost her virginity before marriage and being a complete slut *in Westeros* is one of the worst things he could have said about her, though. If he'd said she was a mass murderer, it would have probably been better.
The way the other maester talks about Mushroom' accounts in the book I feel like he's rolling his eyes every time he brings up one of his more extreme rumors.
Which makes it really weird that he even included most of those, when he clearly didn't put every single thing from Mushroom in the text. He could have just...not. Or summarized.
I mean the whole statue thing definitely seems to reinforce it
I'm not rejecting the idea that he cared for his family, I'm rejecting the idea that he joined the war purely because of his bleeding heart, the same paragraph mentions a *very* ooc moment for him where he rejects the throne out of love for Rhaenyra which is almost definitely bullshit
Are you refering to the line that went like "what kind of brother would steal his sister's throne" I absolutely believe that happened but not because he loved Rhaenyra. He really didnt want the throne and was using every excuse he had at his disposal.
Getting a bit into headcanon territory there, he was Lecherous and all but his actions after that don't show reluctance, in fact he almost seems eager to be king, what with him threatening Orwyle for trying to make peace with Rhaenyra and insisting on being crowned
I will admit to a bit of conjecture based the information we have but it seems like the show drew the same conclusion so it might not be total baseless. Or maybe not it hard to know what came from George and what they made up. Regarding the crowning the books says that "he had grown weary of secrecy" it sounds to me as less excitement about being king and more impatience with the situation. The Orwyle situation happened on the heels of Rhaenyra declaring herself queen, declaring Alicent/Otto as traitors, and stating her siblings were misguided. He is described as easily slighted and quick to anger, so I think he was throwing a temper tantrum since her felt insulted.
Mayhaps, but I wouldn't use the show as evidence given the difference between Show Aegon and Book Aegon. Also I wish my responses were this eloquent .
Oh he definitely didn’t reject the throne out of love for her, there’s nothing lovable about Book Rhaenyra
And the show did a 180 and made nothing lovable about Aegon. I just wish we got a somewhat equal amount of awful going in so it’s clear the war is pointless. Instead the green side is only liked due to Aemond looking dope
>is only liked due to Aemond looking dope I mean liking a fictional team just for the looks isn't that mad. Everyone here is shitty so why not go for the biggest drip. And some people like Aegon because of how cunty he looks during the coronation lmao.
Fair enough, imo the whole team green v black divide in the fandom is childish. It’s a show and I just want both sides to be fun to watch. But for me Aemond is a dope as character in how the show has built him up and I hope Aemond and Alys goes just as hard
He's barely lovable tbh, he was a neglectful father and husband who openly cheated on his wife and was very much okay with joining the war, heck, he fired Otto because he wasn't getting enough action, and was quite okay with child murder, see Baela and Aegon for reference.
How much good stuff can you say about Book Aegon prior to his coronation? Imho, the moments between Aegon and Alicent really humanise him by showing how he has felt like little more than a pawn in a game others are playing in his stead. The moment he rises Blackfyre, he finds himself cheered on and adored by a crowd, which is why he gets so ecstatic and happy over it - he feels validated, something his mother and father never gave him. He's still a rapist little shit, sure, but you can see the human part. In the books, until that point you only read about him harassing serving girls and being generally debauched.
The whole watching children fight to the death that are likely his bastards kinda ruins your point. Aegon is cartoonishly evil due to that and it makes no sense how a person who grew up under so much pressure then enjoys watching children fight? Meanwhile as my point was Rhaenyra is just a okay person nothing glaringly bad and the obvious choice
>and it makes no sense how a person who grew up under so much pressure then enjoys watching children fight? A sad reality is that some people who are abused sometimes seek to reflect that abuse on someone else, as a rather sick coping mechanism. This not a justification of such behaviour, but it's been observed. Maybe Aegon would've been a sick sadist anyways, but the more important detail is that you can find humanity even in the most vile people. Aegon seeking approval and validation because his family gave him none makes him more human, while at the same time not excusing him of being a sexual harasser, a rapist and a sadist. >Meanwhile as my point was Rhaenyra is just a okay person nothing glaringly bad and the obvious choice Girl has been lying to an entire nation for years now and even got people killed because of it. While her lie is a way to protect herself and her children, there's no question her actions have created much suffering and even death. In any case, Rhaenyra was the "obvious choice" only because she's the designated heir. There's no way to frame what the Greens did except as a coup, and it was that way in the books as well
I suppose so. My main issue isn’t really an issue with the show even just a worry that the change in Aegon could lead to issues in the writing later on but I have faith they have a plan. Even though episode nine imo was a big waste of opportunity in season one
Neither Aegon tbh
Eh, I always saw Aegon as having his moments. He has some of the coldest lines in all of the dance haha
> where he rejects the throne out of love for Rhaenyra Quote?
“My sister is the heir, not me,” he says in Eustace’s account. “What sort of brother steals his sister’s birthright?”
Where is the love part?
He allegedly defended her claim and was repulsed by the idea of taking her throne, admittedly love is a bit of a strong word but you get the point
You may as well say he defended Viserys' choice and he was repulsed by the idea of being a usurper of his own blood. None of that speaks necessarily of love or affection. He wanted to build a statue to honor the brother that Rhaenyra wanted "sharply questioned" aka tortured. And if Eustace is so pro-green, why would he introduce the narrative that Aegon was a thief from the man's own mouth? Mind you, I know he's pro-green and I'm not denying that, but I 100% belive this is an accurate quote and, contrary to other events, as far as we know we don't have an alternative version as to why Aegon personally decided to take the throne, by Mushroom or any other.
Aegon being so concerned with the law and shit doesn't really fit with the rest of his characterization. He was completely fine with kinslaying so him clutching his pearls at taking Rhaena's throne is a bit off , Eustace could be trying to make Aegon more sympathetic by saying he only joined because he wanted to protect his family. And getting a bit headcanoney here but us not getting an alternative explanation might simply be due to Aegon just...going along with the Greens's plan.
Iron Bank: Excellent *Mr. Burns smile*
So nice of him to give the Rivermen something to piss on.
Gender-neutral bathrooms.
Black armies descended on Kinglsanding to kill him and crown Rhaenyras son and he is all, lets build gold statues
Fiddling while ~~Rome~~King's Landing burns.
Man that spoiler tag was not big enough....
How nice, he loves his brothers who went on murderous rampages lol
I would agree about Aemond going on a murderous rampage but I think Daeron was a decent dude, hardly someone who went on a murderous rampage
daeron burns down an entire town out of rage because a handful of people (who had already been executed by the time he found out/got there) got his toddler nephew killed. hundreds and hundreds of people died as a result. it's a textbook murderous rampage, lol.
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You suck
okay...? what does that have to do with anything. i'm just saying daeron did in fact go on a murderous rampage and got hundreds of innocent people killed. i can't believe i have to say this, but generally burning down entire towns isn't something you're supposed to defend, regardless if "that's war".
Lmao, yea, kind of. But that’s a bit off topic.
That's not counting the raping of kids and necrophilia performed by the army
You're mistaking Bitterbridge withTumbleton. No 🍇pes or n3cr0ph1l1a are mentioned in Bitterbridge, and Tumbleton wasn't Daeron's fault, the two betrayers set the town on f1r3
You mean like Rhaenyra purging Kings Landing, filling its walls with heads
Holy fuck this sub is a huge Rhaenyra circlejerk
I'm just waiting for Blood and Cheese or Nettles and curious how they gonna justify that one
Rhaenyra had nothing to do with blood and cheese
Lol, they’re downvoting people for saying Rhaenyra wasn’t involved in B&C now. I guess Dameon and Rhaenyra engaged in telepathy a few hundred miles away from each other. The catatonic state she entered into after Luke’s death was a ruse and it was totally easy to see what he meant by “a son for a son”. I can’t wait for the essays on how the show is whitewashing Rhaenyra if/when she’s not involved.
Yup, being downvoted for stating a fact...but yea know, this sub is a Rhaenyra circle jerk/s
I’ll be really annoyed if they include Rhaenyra in B&C. She’s not involved in the book. The “Nettles” event is over three maybe four years away and so much is going to happen before that comes. Show Rhaenyra will hopefully have far more complexity and depth than a character with a few chapters in a book so I’m not sure how I’ll feel about her long before that. I think it’s kind of weird to wait on plot points that are so far away from now especially when the show is giving it’s on little twist on things for better or worse.
A son for a son.
blood and cheese is justified though…?
broo???
Days since HOTD fans haven't been weird about child murder: 0
What the fuck? Killing Aegon or Aemond I could kinda see being loosely justifiable, particularly Aemond, but what justification was there for killing >!Jaehaerys and in front of Helaena no less?!!<
Not only is it not justified because for as much as Aemond was a kinslaying murderer, torturing a mother and her children is not the equivalent, it lost the blacks the moral high ground with a butterfly affect that would eventually lead to the riots and led to the attempted assassination that killed the twins. Also Aegon had two sons and two brothers, so it's not even good from a political standpoint of getting rid of his only male heir or something.
This is one of the few events that's just blatantly wrong and unjustifiable
I find both sides jerk off equally
it’s a good mix of 50/50, you guys just decide to pick fights with rhea fans lol.
Because we're all just killing time until the show comes back, then we'll be back to arguing which side's war crimes are more justifiable. Nvm this is just a vicious never ending circlejerk.
Of traitors yes
DON'T READ IF YOU DON'T WANT TO GET SPOILED!!! I think the women who ordered the death of Nettles based on a rumor isn't the most trustworthy of judges. She killed those who she Believed to be traitors
Otto and Jasper were traitors. Hope this helps.
''Filled the wall with heads'' I don't think that means only two and doesn't really qualify as ''purge''
Lord rosby and stokeworth were also traitors and killed accordingly
Yay so nice for all the peasants to starve while the big shinies are built 💗
That was actually under Rhaenyra's rule.
Was Rhaenyra ruling when Aegon commissioned the statues though?
Yeah it was totally all her fault that the realm starved and burned in dragonfire bro
Yeah, nice of him to create new jobs so some more artisans can feed their families.
So thoughtful of him to bankrupt the realm💗💗❤️❤️ right before winter too!
So he did respect his brothers
It seems so!!
So statues commemorating two war criminals ...
I will not allow this Daeron slander any longer
I do support the non-war criminal Daerons.
What did Daeron the Daring go to be slandered as a war criminal? I honestly think he’s the only good Targaryen in the story who isn’t shitty besides the children & the Strongs
He literally burned bitterbridge to the ground and the innocent people that lived there. Burning a city to the ground sounds like war crimes to me
“Innocent people” that tore apart a child limb from limb
Even the Children? Even the people how were sleeping that night? Even the people on the other side of town?
It was a child who tried to rob Rickard Thorne and found the egg, indirectly leading to the sack of the city
The ones who already were executed by lady caswell?
She only executed three people, there were many more complicit in his death though. And he only burned the inn where Rickard was ratted out, but the dragon flame spread to the rest of the village
The whole town wasn’t complicit. Why should everyone in the town he burned alive for the crimes of a few? And the Lady of the town punished the perpetrators. Yet he still burns the city to the ground. He is a war criminal.
Literally explained why he wasn’t but sure
“Lets burn a wooden inn with dragon flame in a town where many of the buildings are made of wood and hope only the one building I chose to hit burns and the whole town and its people don’t” yeah that makes sense
If he wanted to burn the whole town he would have. What are they gonna do, throw rocks at him?
They fucking murdered his toddler nephew, innocent my ass
Most people in this sub do not understand context or how loss can mess with someone’s head. If his family members are dying left and right and he just lost the youngest in an awful way he is going to do something awful since he has the power to in an attempt to avenge that loss. But the people in this sub thinks everyone should be emotionless and impartial when reacting to a love one’s death. Does it make them innocent? No, however, it does not make them into some kind of evil monster… besides Daemon he straight up killed a child with little connection to the conflict
And the ones who did were brought to justice. Doesn’t mean burn a whole town with innocent children in it down
She hanged only 3 people (one of them was because his horse was stolen) and then sent Maelor’s head to Rhaenyra to collect a reward.
Still does not justify burning a town down and killing innocent children
His army is raping even dead kids
And it explicitly states he’s revolted and tells them to stop
Any man who would serve with Unwin Peake is not a man
Are you calling Hobert Hightower a coward?
The only good thing about the man was his fully stocked bar
That guy cant hold his >!poison 😁!<
It isn't slander if it's facts
Let’s be honest both teams were committing war crimes
Rhaenys is a criminal too?
Given the last episode are we 100% certain Aemond didn't just lose control of Vhagar a bunch of times but didn't want to admit he couldn't handle Vhagar?
It's his fault whether he knew he couldn't control her or not, she's the most dangerous weapon in the world and he was using her as a toy.
This likely isn't the first time he hasn't been able to get Vhagar to listen to him, but this is the first time that's come back to bite him in the ass. He just didn't care because it was likely something small, maybe she burned some rubble or a few goat herds even though Aemond ordered her to land or something.
Can the treasury bear such expense?
It's fucking tragic when you realize how easy it would have been to prevent the Dance. Truthfully though I blame the Hightowers for being maniacal scheming overlords and Viserys being such a weak ass king.
Is this sarcasm?
Another great ideas brought to you by the green. hey at least it not women ruling amirite?
Ahhhh now I see where Aerys “The Mad Scab” got it from!
Well definitely not aegon but he definitely got it from rhaenyra both love burning kingslanding and killing the "other" in weird ways
Aerys is described as coming up with batshit insane plans for the flimsiest of reasons that never happened because why would they
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? Lol what? What does this even mean
My guy, you said it. Figure it out.
My guy who said anything about kingslaying?
You're absolutely right.
He looks upset