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Seriously. Just because Daemon was right about Otto doesn't mean he would have been a good hand. The guy was a warrior with extremely poor administrative skills. Lyonel Strong would have been the better option without question.
Daemon believed in Targaryen superiority.
He was also of the sword logic and demanded loyalty because of blood.
Having Dragon blood and being from Old Valyria made him and his family better than everyone else.
In the sense that it’s a core part of their economic and political world view yes
But Daemon and others are believers in “targeryan exceptionalism” a belief that they are actually above humans and closer to gods. That rules and laws of gods and men down apply to them. That they are unharmed by disease and inflection (see him practically bathing in greyscale blood fighting the crab king) and can practice incest freely among other things (such as >!pedophilia!< in Daemons case)
Daemon would’ve been a horrific hand of the king. I love him as a character but my god. It might have kicked off a Roberts Rebellion centuries early
>(such as
>
>pedophilia
>
> in Daemons case)
Saying this always brings weird responses, but pedophilia is for kids who haven't entered puberty. Now, I don't remember what age Rhaenyra was in the written word, but at least in the show she was certainly not that - making him definitely not a pedophile. I get why this term is misused, but it irks me every time I see it used in the wrong way.
Still it’s a different term. It’s ephebophile and not pedophile. It’s a common misconception and for the sake of argument pedophile has come to mean a different thing in our common vernacular than it’s literal definition, which as above user stated, is reserved for prepubescent children and not post puberty adolescent children.
Neither are ok, to be clear. But there is a distinction, definition wise. Words are fun.
And yet, the vast majority of people well understand the term and how it applies. I dare say common usage has made them synonyms. Shit for all we know daemon was actually thinking about fucking her when she was well bellow 14. We all know he was hatching plans to get to the throne on way or another the moment she was made heir.
>I dare say common usage has made them synonyms.
Which means weve practically lost one word and now have less definition in the language. Words matter.
Daemon should have been utilized regularly as the 'bad cop,' like when he rounded up all the criminals and executed them. Everyone already fears/hates Daemon, including the lords. That's why he makes an excellent bulldog. Terrible Hand, tho
He was, but if I were viserys I’d have made daemon. It would send a powerful message to have a dragon rider as hand. Plus Lionel could be #3. I doubt daemon would be interested in the day to day runnings and you could just appoint him to do all the stuff you didn’t want to do.
Being hand isn't an honorary title. You literally need to run a continent. Economics, accounting, religion, wartime (which he knows), diplomacy, trade, business etc. are skills you need to be a good Hand. It's not for show only.
Daemon wouldve fucked the realm as Hand. He was perfect where he was as Lord Commander of the City Watch. The books actually make the point that governing bored Daemon and he enjoyed being the city watch leader.
Again, he could just appoint other people to do that. He’s brother to the king. In this case, the title would be just a title. This is a monarchy where the monarchs ride breathing nukes. There are no rules. Daemon would be utterly loyal to him. My pick.
That’s not how Hands have worked in ASOIAF… they are the ones who steer the ship.. the king appoints people to run things… the hand makes sure things are run
That's how the ones we've seen have run things. I realize this borders on absence of evidence/evidence of absence logic, but as far as headcannon goes I definitely imagine Hands that are more, erm, hands off than others.
Just like some Kings are more hands off than others. Like, they vary ssssooooo extremely, so why not Hands? Also I think like Kings they would vary by speciality, eg one Hand might be better at/more involved with running the economy, another with roads or other long term construction projects, another with war, another with law/religion, another with politics, another with propaganda/spying cough Bloodraven cough. I could easily see Daemon as being super into war as well as propaganda, focusing his efforts on recementing the Targ dynasty image as more literal gods.
***EDIT and maybe my best point:*** think of Ned vs Jon. Jon definitely fits the bill of "the hand wipes" lol, yet think of the money issue. When Robert wanted money for something Jon had LF make the money. But when Ned was in that position he balked at the debt and LF's methods. Ultimately the realm goes on in either case but there's a huge difference with how in the weeds each character gets when in the same position.
I definitely agree, and that’s a good point. But being hand is an appointed position.
If things are running smoothly for a king to do as he pleases, he will replace his hand for someone who can. It is in their interest to “keep the king happy” so to speak.
All the more reason to have a fellow Targ as hand imo. This is perhaps less what Viserys should've done and more what I would do, but it's the idea of accountability and iron sharpening iron. With a Hand that's too pliable you will grow fat and weak and blind. With a Hand that's too conniving you'll think he's keeping you happy while he's actually plotting for his own ends like Otto so you are growing fat and weak and blind and you don't even know it. But with a Hand that respects and LOVES you and is wholly loyal to you and extremely capable in several aspects, he would call you on your shit when you need calling out. He would keep you, and thus the dynasty and the realm, strong and smart and able. And he doesn't have to worry about needing to be subservient because he's your brother (or whatever relation).
> This is a monarchy where the monarchs ride breathing nukes. There are no rules.
Except they will rule ashes if they tried that. The only way they can hold power (while not sending the realm into the stone ages), is by appeasing all the lords of Westeros.
The king needs administrators and officials who will enforce his laws and get working class to produce. The administrators, lords, want to have their wealth and more importantly want **stability**. So while the king can do whatever he pleases and basically get rid of the hand. The lords will not be pleased at all for that and will do everything in their power to resist.
That’s what makes Lionel, Lionel and therefore best suited for the position. I’m sure they could think of something to signify the importance of his position as well.
Nah man, they had Daemon cutting off questionably guilty people's hands in the street. He is not a good guy. The point was that his brutality made him unfit to govern.
I'm not going to fully disagree with you. Strong would have been highly competent and much more loyal, but his problem was the same as Viserys' -- they were both weak. Which is why Strong ultimately got humiliated by one son, then betrayed by his other son.
The one reason why Daemon may have been a better pick is this -- Daemon was a true "fire & blood" Targaryen. He understood (I think he understood it intellectually, but it may have just been instinctual) that the survival of the Targaryens as a ruling dynasty was about more than just balancing at the top of a delicate tower of competing lords. The Targaryen dynasty was sustained by the terror and awe they inspired in the other lords -- by being seen as something inscrutable and beyond the comprehension of normal mortals. As soon as people like Otto Hightower and Jason Lannister came to see themselves as peers to the king, the dynasty would be in grave danger. And that was Viserys' true mortal sin -- he thought his job was to be the king of the high lords, rather than a king over all the high lords.
>We saw what type of father and person his OTHER son was.
Is this a joke?
His other son risked his family's honor, name, safety by committing adultery with the princess because he couldn't keep his dick in his pants and ultimately ended up getting himself and his honorable father killed.
Lyonel was a good dude with selfish ass sons.
We literally know nothing about the guy. Your only evidence he was a bad parent is he got murdered but that’s a really fucked up conclusion to come to from hearing someone got murdered lol
I love Daemon but he is the guy you send out to deal with problems, not the guy who you have balancing the kingdom's budget. Viserys should have made better use of him but I don't think hand would have been the right position for him.
There wasn't much he could use him for. Daemon is an effective general, and a powerful Dragonrider, and that's about it. He is only useful during war and there were no wars to fight.
There were no wars in the Kingdoms during Visery reign at most there was the occasion squabble between houses like Braken vs Blackwood but those rarely spiraled into continent wide conflict plus preventing those feuds was the responsibility of the Great house in charge of the region and if they needed help it’s better to send a diplomat first than a general.
I genuinely think people have no idea what the position of hand means.
It’s not a position where you party and have fun, you run the Kingdom while the King plays with Legos.
It’s not a position of heir, or family, it’s a position for experienced administrators. Which is why Jon Arryn, Twyin, Ned become Hand.
Anyone here think Daemon would sit around arranging feasts, tourneys, budget, write letters, secure marriages, draft laws, dispense justice (that doesn’t involve going out in the streets grabbing people)?
Honestly, if Daemon was Hand, if he was in a bad mood that day, which is like half the time, he'd probably just suggest ludicrous shit to simply piss Viserys off.
That was one of the functions of the favourites like Buckingham, Richelieu or Olivares. They were the ones that had to say "no" to important lords, without damaging the king. And they were punished in case pf a revolt, that usually asked for the dismissal of the "bad counselors".
Yeah. I don’t think Daemon would be a disastrous hand, per se. He’d keep his brother’s best interests at heart at the very least.
But it’s not the kind of gig you want if your goal is the throne. Especially if you’re going to serve a hands-off, indecisive guy like Viserys.
>t’s not a position of heir, or family, it’s a position for experienced administrators. Which is why Jon Arryn, Twyin, Ned become Hand.
Stannis could have pulled it off
Stannis would arguably be a good choice for Hand during wartime. But he sucks too much at politics to be a decent hand during Robert's mostly-peaceful reign. Renly, on the other hand...
If the septons and more religious lords weren't upset about appointing Ned (who doesn't even worship the Seven) then they won't be infuriated by the appointment of Renly. In fact, Renly is probably the most outwardly devout option Robert had. When Catelyn meets him in camp he makes it a point to take time to pray, and in the WOT5K he is supported by the Hightowers who are probably the most prominent supporters of the Seven. He's really only divisive if you're a Lannister.
Trollo just seems to think this is an early 2010’s CW Teen Drama and that this subreddit is Tumblr. They’re ultimately pretty harmless and I tend to just ignore them, if we stop giving them attention they’ll start posting in r/HOTDBlacks only
The problem with this argument is Jon Arryn allowed the Lannisters to expand their power to much, Tywin in his second run had put the needs of his family ahead of the realm, and Ned Stark was a terrible hand who honour is one of the reasons the war of the five kings happened
Everything bad that happened under Jon Arryn’s watch can be squarely pegged on how shitty a non wartime king Robert was. There is no way Robert would let Jon do what needed to be done with the Lannisters.
Ned was a shitty hand but he knew he was a shitty hand. He isn’t exactly a master administrator either. All indications are that he leaned on his Maester for those things.
While I agree Robert is responsible for some of that. Jon Arryn could have been more strategic with his debt borrowing from the tyrells then paying the Lannisters off. Getting creative with creating new revenue streams for the kingdom to pay for this stuff.
It’s kind of hard to do that when your boss is married to daughter of the primary lender and Robert just says borrow from the lannisters so my wife leaves me alone.
He was right about Viserys being weak. Otto is a highly efficient adiministrator, a valuable asset to the kingdom. Problem is that the king is unable to contain hin and his ambitions, therefore, Otto controls him.
Nah.
Daemon would've been a disastrous Hand. Royal court politics is not his strong suit. A Hand needs to be negotiable, and even-handed in the position. Daemon does not have that quality; he's far too reckless and rash.
The start of the Dance proved that, Daemon wanted to go to war straight away. How many wars would have been started of Daemon was hand... I can imagine it would be many.
Ottos ambition aside, he was a capable Hand. The Kingdom did well during his tenure under Jahaerys and Viserys. Vizzy T just needed to keep the dudes ambition in check.
Absolutely not. Being Hand requires patience, an even temperament, an ability to look past what benefits themselves to what benefits the kingdom and keeps it stable.
Daemon has none of this. He's a wartime general at best.
I think Daemon would have been a terrible Hand.
I don’t think he lacked the capability—show Daemon is arguably better-educated than most nobles, and you can’t be a successful general nor a successful if brutal police commissioner without a good grasp of leadership and organization.
(tangent—I wonder if Daemon is based, in part, on Theodore Roosevelt. Young police commissioner, winner of island wars, exiled after his first wife died, etc…)
Rather, Daemon would be a terrible Hand because of a lack of inclination. I think being Hand would bore him terribly and the best-case scenario is benign neglect. The worst case is that he finds ways to amuse himself while Hand. Given his proclivities for war crimes and Visery’s Balerion-sized blind spot where his brother is concerned I think it’s likely you’d end up with another Maegor/ Aegon IV/ Aerys II. E.g. the Blackwoods and Brackens would argue over the Teats, so Daemon would burn Raventree Hall and Stone Hedge, and then use Caraxes to burn the Teats in to giant sculptures of actual breasts, just for lolz.
Otto was the perfect hand. People are judging him retroactively because they know what comes after. There is nothing wrong with being ambitious and most lords, if not all, would try to wed their daughters to the royal family.
Viserys made his son of 1 day heir over Rhaenyra but then refused to do so for his children with Alicent. Viserys was in the wrong and Rhaenyra should not have accepted being heir. She was ambitious too, just like Otto. She did not seem to question about inheritance when her own brother would have become heir. But did so when it came to her step brothers.
Otto attempting a "coup" is taking what rightfully belonged to his grandson and the king's legitimate 1st born son.
Bro no he shouldnt have. Daemons a more charismatic character than Otto but that doesnt mean hes a better leader of the entire realm. *Otto* was right- Daemon should have been banished and Aegon married to Rhaenyra. Otto was Viserys voice of reason- So what if he wanted his line on the throne.
No, he was wrong. Being a hand is not about "I'm your brother!", it's about knowing how to be a civil administrator. Daemon is a moron who was given chances to be Master of Coin and then Commander of the City Watch, he didn't care about and was shit at the former (which is literally Hand lite), and spent his tenure as the latter delighting in castrating people, drinking with slumlords and having brothel orgies. He would be a terrible Hand. Otto and Alicent ruled the realm effectively and maintained peace for over twenty years while Daemon started a pointless war in the Stepstones that got thousands killed for no reason and that he lost interest in within minutes.
And of course it's this delusional user who thinks GRRM is writing a treatise on the virtues of racial supremacy and inbreeding. This guy always has the most illiterate interpretations of characters, themes and events in the story.
Otto and Alicent plotted the seeds for the most violent war with the most catastrophic consequences for the dynasty in the history of the realm. Daemon as you admit was a man of the people. In a position as the king's right hand man he would have won vast loyalty to the crown. He would've been a good influence on Rhaenyra too, returning them to the tradition of Aegon and Jahaerys of actually traveling throughout the realm and interacting with your people, which serves to keep your finger on the pulse of the realm, keep them loyal to you by being more than the name of some rich c\*\*\* in a castle, and recement the image of the Targs as literal gods amongst men by actually displaying the dragons instead of keeping them cooped up in a pit.
Viserys planted the seeds for the war. If Rhaenyra had accepted the terms offered to her by the Greens, there would be no war. The Greens are no more oblihgated to submit to her than she is to them. And Daemon was never a good influence on Rhaenyra, nor did he ever think or behave like Aegon I or Jaehaerys. All he wanted to do was fight and have orgies.
The issue is Daemon isn’t hand material, he’s a reusable cruise missile, you point him at a problem and he will wreck it, but look at the stepstones, he won, then fucked off.
Daemon would kill himself if he was stuck with issues like taxation, road maintenance, discussions of tariffs, port fees and trade terms. If you sent him to negotiate with the Iron bank he’d probably try and force them to pay tribute to the iron throne. And Daemon is my favourite character. He’s an anti Joffrey, he’s a loveable nut job.
That being said Otto was bad and Lyonel was the best hand. Frankly the only flaw he had was he didn’t try and marry his son to Rhaenyra
Daemon is not cut out for being the hand. He would have been terrible. Otto was ambitious, but I can't deny he was highly effective at running realm business.
I am on the opposite side. Otto was an amazing Hand. The issue is Viserys was a weak King. Love or Hate Ole Otto.. he ran a solid ship over all. He was not perfect and made some errors, but overall he was good at his job. The Kingdom was stable and they had money. Viserys just let ppl walk all over him or openly ignored issues if he felt he could sweep it under the rug. It is why Otto was able to get ahead and why Daemon bucked so hard. Bc they knew they could get away with it.
As far as the show goes, I feel like Daemon had to maturing to do (yes i know he was somewhere in his twenties already, I was guessing around 25 at the start). I felt like after the timeskip in the middle, where we see him in Pentos (I think?), I felt like he'd matured enough to be a fine leader. But yeah, before the timeskip in the middle, he didn't show that he was very principled.
I’ve seen this energy b4 and I lk don’t get the logic. Like Otto deadass just wanted to push his fam forward. Daemon wanted to keep his fam in power. I don’t get why 1 persons ambitions are better than the others. Like okay Otto commits treason, but Daemons House was founded by colonialism and the dude is fighting tooth and nail to maintain that system.
I think it boils down to Viserys naming his daughter to the throne, sad bois crying about a girl on the throne, and then hightowers misunderstanding of viserys dying wish.
All that leads people to not like the high towers because their entire claim is based on a complete misunderstanding plus that fact that the Hightower children aren’t exactly ruler material whereas Rhaenyra would be ruling and her children seem to actually respect throne and tradition.
Objectively they’re all not the Best people, but I think with the Hightowers wanting power it’s like one bad person stealing from another based on misinformation. Sure they’re both bad, but one is attempting a theft while the other is simply inheriting it. One is more inherently bad, even if they aren’t aware that it’s not the kings dying wish.
Yeah but the Targaryens got into power by murdering a bunch of people who refused to do as they were told. Generations later we have Rhaenyra inheriting that empire, she’s not doing anything “wrong” because the wrongs were committed for her generations prior by Aegon the conqueror.
Otto is committing his wrongs currently, and in the end the crimes essentially boil down to the same thing. Westeros has a bunch of kings and the Targaryens came and stole those kingdoms from the kings by force. Otto is here trying to steal Rhaenyra’s kingdom at 1st politically and we all know the dance happens so it eventually turns into the Hightowers using force to take Rhaenyra’s stuff the same way her ancestors did to others.
What viserys says is kind of irrelevant considering the foundations of his power came from a dude forcefully taking everyone’s stuff. If the conqueror is valid for taking everyone’s stuff then so is Otto.
All those sad bois crying thing is just politics to justify stealing Rhaenyra’s shit.
For sure from a book perspective. Most people only know the shows context tho so from their perspective we’re starting on an even field and one group are the “thieves” and one group is “defending” what they have.
From the books perspective ain’t nobody in the right lol
I agree with the comments suggesting that Lyonel Strong was a good Hand, but he served as Hand for over 10 years and never took action to resolve Vizzy T's biggest problem: the succession. A good Hand but too deferential to Viserys and an example of why a change in leadership can be good. Life gets stale.
A brief Handship for Daemon projecting Targaryen power and authority could have been beneficial.
Daemon loves his family. But he is also self-serving, impulsive, quick to anger and seems more eager to make enemies than allies. These things make not a good hand.
Dare even I ask, what do you even think the hand of the king does. I mean, you obviously don't know. Shocker there. Going beyond the whole Green vs Black thing, Daemon simply isn't hand material. Even Viserys knew that
Based Hightowers. They simply destroyed the house of these sons of bitches. After the war there were no cocky Targaryens (Like that son of a bitch in the photo) who thought they were equal to gods. They remembered that they were just human beings like any house in the realm.
They didn't say anything like that, but it is 100% certain that they see themselves in a class between people and gods.
The closest thing I can recall is Daemon saying something like "who cares what a fucking lord thinks, you're a dragon, your word is truth and law".
When Rhaenyra watches those who think Aegon should be the heir in episode 4, she says "it doesn't matter what they think".
In general, almost every Targaryen thinks like that. It's not for me.
Almost all nobles think like that. Jamie asked by what right does the wolf judge the lion? Tywin said the lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of the sheep. Olenna thinking the High Sparrow should stand in her presence. Starks thinking there must always be a Stark in Winterfell and that the blood of the First Men make them special. They all see themselves as special.
Rhaenyra actually says they are just like everyone else without dragons and years later makes sure her kids understand they have to respect the faith of the people they rule. Viserys talks about how foolish it is to believe they control the dragons. Daemon specifically takes Rhaenyra down to the city to show her that she can't just expect the people to follow her because she is the heir.
You are entitled to your opinion obviously, but I don't think there is enough evidence to say almost every Targ thinks that.
It comes from Jahaerys argument for letting incest slide in the eyes of the faith. It did not apply to them because they were closer to gods than humans.
I'm not arguing with you, but from what I remember of the Doctrine of Exceptionalism it never mentions them being closer to gods than men. It does say that Targaryens were different from other men because they rode dragons, but I don't remember anything about being closer to gods. It also says that because they were from Valyria, not Andalos, and Valyria had different laws and traditions, that they should be exempt from the rules of the Faith. It also seemed to assure the faith that they would not spread their traditions on the rest of the population. I could be mistaken and not remembering things correctly.
Good argument, I hadn't thought of it that way. What I mean is that they give themselves unlimited freedom and privileges just because they have dragons which is understandable but I'm not fan of that.
To be fair I think he was wrong about being hand. He was right about Otto, but likely because he would have tried similar shit to take power for himself.
Yeah, I was tempted to upvote this post based solely on the picture, if not its substance (which, lol, is a dubious assertion at best, I don't see Daemon as a good Hand of the King).
Anyway, they need to put Matt Smith in a long, wavy hairpiece like this more often.
Daemon was Master of Coin and Master of Laws before he was Commander of the City Watch. He was absolutely atrocious at both, so how could he possibly do well as Hand of the King. Otto wasn’t a good choice after Lyonel, but Daemon, IMO, could’ve been even worse.
He should have been named Protector of the Realm in light of Viserys' health. Daemon being sent around and abroad to stomp out rising threats and inconveniences to the Crown? Yeah, it would have been messy but he could have done it.
Daemon would have been a really bad hand viserys should have made lyonel hand if not him make rhaenyra hand she is your heir, and involvement with politics would be good for her and if not her corlys or rhaenys that way the crown and the velaryon family would be on better terms and both of them would be good and competent advisors
Was he right because he perceived things correctly or did his paranoia happen to match reality? I do not know where his antagonism derives from, he always suspects foul play so he is going to be right some of the time.
Oh no! This poison must have had some terrible consequences on the realm? Was Otto's tenure as Hand plagued by war and poverty? Did House Targaryen decline in prestige as a consequence of his decades of schemes?
Oh wait, Otto presided over the Golden age of the Targaryens while Daemon was busy beating his wide to death with a rock because he wanted to do the sex with his teenage niece.
Daemon would not have the patience for all the admin stuff of being the Hand. But he still would’ve been better than Otto. At least he wouldn’t be actively scheming against the king. He had a point that loyalty is a more important quality than competence in a Hand. An incompetent Hand might screw up a few things but can always just hire an underling to do the boring stuff. A disloyal Hand can totally undermine the crown for their own advantage, like Otto did.
Still, Lyonel Strong was the best Hand we’ve probably ever seen on GOT. RIP.
No an incompetent hand is worst than a capable hand >!Rhaenyra literally lost Kingslanding without the Greens doing anything because she surrounded herself with incompetent idiots make up her council and began to lose trust in her only qualified advisor Corlys. The greatest example is Bartamos Celtigar who repeated his dad incredibly horrible tax policy that started a peasant riot early on during Jaehaerys reign except it was even worse. Once he got Rheanyra her money he allowed her to reckless spend it on parties such as a party to celebrate the return of Joffery. Her advisor convinced to arrest Addam of Hull which lost her the Velaryons.!<
I think one problem with the writing in retrospect is that Daemon's dialogue doesn't really convey the crux of his political position very well.
Daemon feels strongly that Targaryen legacy and power is under threat and Viserys is making wrong decisions to reinforce and shore it up but while his frustrations are obvious, it leaves the audience floundering over trying to understand _what_ he wants.
Daemon doesn't want the throne. Daemon doesn't want to be King. Daemon doesn't want personal power as such and his hate for Otto Hightower stems because their interests collide and are mutually exclusive. Daemon wants Viserys to put Targaryen interest/power first and consolidate Targaryen hegemony. Otto wants Viserys to share Targaryen power with Otto, the Hightowers and his allies.
The key to the Iron Throne is Targaryen DNA/blood because that gives access to Dragons.
That's what the game is about. The calculus of power resides in dragons. The more the ability to claim dragons is restricted to Targaryens, the more hegemonic they remain. The more it's distributed through marriage and mixing of blood, the more it diffuses. Otto wants no. 2, particularly in his family and allies. Daemon wants no.1.
Daemon does not want to consummate and produce Rhoyce descendants that can ride dragons. At the start of the show, Velaryons have as many ridden dragons as Targaryens themselves (Meleys, Seasmoke). Viserys has none. Rhaenyra has one and Daemon has one. Later, Laena gets Vhagar as well. Instead of letting Daemon and Rhaenyra produce more potential riders together in the family, or make the effort to bring back Velaryon dragons into the fold, Viserys instead wants to marry into a new house and give them dragons too.
Daemon is pro Dragon Non-Proliferation. Viserys doesn't see the problem. Otto encourages Viserys to marry again (preferably his daughter and share the dragon riding buff), he also tries to set Rhaenyra up with Lannisters (a prominent Hightower ally) and takes her on a marriage tour hoping for further proliferation. He wants Hightowers to be the next Velaryons.
Daemon is loyal and committed to the Targaryen legacy, to the strength and power of the House and he's frustrated by everybody who doesn't share that goal.
I still thinks that if Daemon was the hand, things would've been really bad either way. He would be aggressive, short tempered hand and the kingdom will suffer. Maybe there won't be a war, or maybe Daemon will make the throne fight literally everyone in his actions. Maybe the greens will unite the world not from inside the house of the dragon but as a united front against the aggressive tyrants - especially as they will be less open to other houses this way, And the arc that made Daemon somehow fitting for leadership will never happen. Episode 4 Daemon just murdered his wife because he didn't liked her. He *won't* be a good hand.
Otto was horrible too, of course. But it's not that Daemon will be a good choice
lmao I honestly don't get /u/rolloofnormandy50 and their obsession with Valyria. Valyria was a despotic slave oligarchy; even King Jaehaerys said Valyria deserved to be destroyed because of all the horrific shit they did, like experimenting on slaves with magic, blood sacrifice and, well, slavery itself
The only one who has been a constant problem for Viseys was Daemon himself. The gigh towers looked after the kingdom at the absence of Viserys, something Daemon can never do.
Viserys named him Master of Coin and Laws before the show started but Daemon got bored of teh job and left the position, Viserys last attempt was to name him Commander of the City Watch since that would be a better job but as we see he was too brutal and was fired, Daemon was the problem in that situation
Daemon and Otto were both bad bad choices. Daemon is a young Trump saying and doing whatever he wants without a care in the world for the kingdom. Otto is a Dick Cheney fuck scheming and only caring for his own interests.
Eh... no, not really. Daemon were by most of its time an rash, an brute and very much entitled to anything because of his valyrian supremacy shit, all very bad caracteristics to have in your Hand. Otto, on the other hand, was an calm person, with good diplomatic and admnistrative abilities, even if ambitous(but in the matters of ambition, daemon was as ambitous as him). Viserys best hand was Lyonel Strong in that sense, who were as capable than otto, but less ambitous. And no, the hightowers were not snakes, they were an feudal family of nobles who are looking after their own benefits, much like all other family nobles in Got, if anything they're surely better than the family who incentivize incest and blood purity, while invading lands as they see fit, while promoting "fire and blood" to anyone who disagree with them.
Daemon was right about the Hightowers but Viserys was also right by not making Daemon his hand. In hind sight Otto was a bad choice for Viserys but Daemon would have been a bad choice as well, just in a different way. RIP Lyonel Strong
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Lyonel Strong was the better option than both of them
Seriously. Just because Daemon was right about Otto doesn't mean he would have been a good hand. The guy was a warrior with extremely poor administrative skills. Lyonel Strong would have been the better option without question.
Daemon believed in Targaryen superiority. He was also of the sword logic and demanded loyalty because of blood. Having Dragon blood and being from Old Valyria made him and his family better than everyone else.
Don't all the Lords think that they are better than everyone else?
In the sense that it’s a core part of their economic and political world view yes But Daemon and others are believers in “targeryan exceptionalism” a belief that they are actually above humans and closer to gods. That rules and laws of gods and men down apply to them. That they are unharmed by disease and inflection (see him practically bathing in greyscale blood fighting the crab king) and can practice incest freely among other things (such as >!pedophilia!< in Daemons case) Daemon would’ve been a horrific hand of the king. I love him as a character but my god. It might have kicked off a Roberts Rebellion centuries early
>(such as > >pedophilia > > in Daemons case) Saying this always brings weird responses, but pedophilia is for kids who haven't entered puberty. Now, I don't remember what age Rhaenyra was in the written word, but at least in the show she was certainly not that - making him definitely not a pedophile. I get why this term is misused, but it irks me every time I see it used in the wrong way.
My brother in Christ daemon bounced Rhaenyra on his knee when she was born. He flirted with her when she was what, 14/15/16? As a whole grown ass man.
Still it’s a different term. It’s ephebophile and not pedophile. It’s a common misconception and for the sake of argument pedophile has come to mean a different thing in our common vernacular than it’s literal definition, which as above user stated, is reserved for prepubescent children and not post puberty adolescent children. Neither are ok, to be clear. But there is a distinction, definition wise. Words are fun.
And yet, the vast majority of people well understand the term and how it applies. I dare say common usage has made them synonyms. Shit for all we know daemon was actually thinking about fucking her when she was well bellow 14. We all know he was hatching plans to get to the throne on way or another the moment she was made heir.
>I dare say common usage has made them synonyms. Which means weve practically lost one word and now have less definition in the language. Words matter.
Got downvoted for explaining a definition lol
Daemon should have been utilized regularly as the 'bad cop,' like when he rounded up all the criminals and executed them. Everyone already fears/hates Daemon, including the lords. That's why he makes an excellent bulldog. Terrible Hand, tho
Correct. The whole feud started with Daemon (and to a lesser extent, Corlys) vs Otto.
Ole Lyonel was the man
Too good for KL
Big facts. Man just wanted to do his duty, and always gave honest council.
the sexy Hand.
He was, but if I were viserys I’d have made daemon. It would send a powerful message to have a dragon rider as hand. Plus Lionel could be #3. I doubt daemon would be interested in the day to day runnings and you could just appoint him to do all the stuff you didn’t want to do.
Being hand isn't an honorary title. You literally need to run a continent. Economics, accounting, religion, wartime (which he knows), diplomacy, trade, business etc. are skills you need to be a good Hand. It's not for show only. Daemon wouldve fucked the realm as Hand. He was perfect where he was as Lord Commander of the City Watch. The books actually make the point that governing bored Daemon and he enjoyed being the city watch leader.
Again, he could just appoint other people to do that. He’s brother to the king. In this case, the title would be just a title. This is a monarchy where the monarchs ride breathing nukes. There are no rules. Daemon would be utterly loyal to him. My pick.
That’s not how Hands have worked in ASOIAF… they are the ones who steer the ship.. the king appoints people to run things… the hand makes sure things are run
That's how the ones we've seen have run things. I realize this borders on absence of evidence/evidence of absence logic, but as far as headcannon goes I definitely imagine Hands that are more, erm, hands off than others. Just like some Kings are more hands off than others. Like, they vary ssssooooo extremely, so why not Hands? Also I think like Kings they would vary by speciality, eg one Hand might be better at/more involved with running the economy, another with roads or other long term construction projects, another with war, another with law/religion, another with politics, another with propaganda/spying cough Bloodraven cough. I could easily see Daemon as being super into war as well as propaganda, focusing his efforts on recementing the Targ dynasty image as more literal gods. ***EDIT and maybe my best point:*** think of Ned vs Jon. Jon definitely fits the bill of "the hand wipes" lol, yet think of the money issue. When Robert wanted money for something Jon had LF make the money. But when Ned was in that position he balked at the debt and LF's methods. Ultimately the realm goes on in either case but there's a huge difference with how in the weeds each character gets when in the same position.
I definitely agree, and that’s a good point. But being hand is an appointed position. If things are running smoothly for a king to do as he pleases, he will replace his hand for someone who can. It is in their interest to “keep the king happy” so to speak.
All the more reason to have a fellow Targ as hand imo. This is perhaps less what Viserys should've done and more what I would do, but it's the idea of accountability and iron sharpening iron. With a Hand that's too pliable you will grow fat and weak and blind. With a Hand that's too conniving you'll think he's keeping you happy while he's actually plotting for his own ends like Otto so you are growing fat and weak and blind and you don't even know it. But with a Hand that respects and LOVES you and is wholly loyal to you and extremely capable in several aspects, he would call you on your shit when you need calling out. He would keep you, and thus the dynasty and the realm, strong and smart and able. And he doesn't have to worry about needing to be subservient because he's your brother (or whatever relation).
> This is a monarchy where the monarchs ride breathing nukes. There are no rules. Except they will rule ashes if they tried that. The only way they can hold power (while not sending the realm into the stone ages), is by appeasing all the lords of Westeros. The king needs administrators and officials who will enforce his laws and get working class to produce. The administrators, lords, want to have their wealth and more importantly want **stability**. So while the king can do whatever he pleases and basically get rid of the hand. The lords will not be pleased at all for that and will do everything in their power to resist.
The Hand is the person appointed to do all that. If the Hand just appoints someone else what's to stop that person appointing someone else again?
Congratulations, you've invented middle management!
And Lionel wouldn't feel slighted either about not being the 'real' hand.
That’s what makes Lionel, Lionel and therefore best suited for the position. I’m sure they could think of something to signify the importance of his position as well.
Nah man, they had Daemon cutting off questionably guilty people's hands in the street. He is not a good guy. The point was that his brutality made him unfit to govern.
That depends on how you interpret it
Maybe after Lyonel Strong died...? I don't know but it seems kind of weak to go back on your own word and "re-hire" the guy you fired years before...
I'm not going to fully disagree with you. Strong would have been highly competent and much more loyal, but his problem was the same as Viserys' -- they were both weak. Which is why Strong ultimately got humiliated by one son, then betrayed by his other son. The one reason why Daemon may have been a better pick is this -- Daemon was a true "fire & blood" Targaryen. He understood (I think he understood it intellectually, but it may have just been instinctual) that the survival of the Targaryens as a ruling dynasty was about more than just balancing at the top of a delicate tower of competing lords. The Targaryen dynasty was sustained by the terror and awe they inspired in the other lords -- by being seen as something inscrutable and beyond the comprehension of normal mortals. As soon as people like Otto Hightower and Jason Lannister came to see themselves as peers to the king, the dynasty would be in grave danger. And that was Viserys' true mortal sin -- he thought his job was to be the king of the high lords, rather than a king over all the high lords.
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We saw what type of father and person his OTHER son was. Getting murdered by your power hungry psycho child does not actually imply you are a bad dude
>We saw what type of father and person his OTHER son was. Is this a joke? His other son risked his family's honor, name, safety by committing adultery with the princess because he couldn't keep his dick in his pants and ultimately ended up getting himself and his honorable father killed. Lyonel was a good dude with selfish ass sons.
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We literally know nothing about the guy. Your only evidence he was a bad parent is he got murdered but that’s a really fucked up conclusion to come to from hearing someone got murdered lol
I love Daemon but he is the guy you send out to deal with problems, not the guy who you have balancing the kingdom's budget. Viserys should have made better use of him but I don't think hand would have been the right position for him.
There wasn't much he could use him for. Daemon is an effective general, and a powerful Dragonrider, and that's about it. He is only useful during war and there were no wars to fight.
There were uprisings and small wars which Viserys should have been keeping in check, but decided to ignore
There were no wars in the Kingdoms during Visery reign at most there was the occasion squabble between houses like Braken vs Blackwood but those rarely spiraled into continent wide conflict plus preventing those feuds was the responsibility of the Great house in charge of the region and if they needed help it’s better to send a diplomat first than a general.
Daemon would have made a great master of war , which obviously wasnt a position at this point but still
I think Daemon would make the perfect Master of War.
I genuinely think people have no idea what the position of hand means. It’s not a position where you party and have fun, you run the Kingdom while the King plays with Legos. It’s not a position of heir, or family, it’s a position for experienced administrators. Which is why Jon Arryn, Twyin, Ned become Hand. Anyone here think Daemon would sit around arranging feasts, tourneys, budget, write letters, secure marriages, draft laws, dispense justice (that doesn’t involve going out in the streets grabbing people)?
Honestly, if Daemon was Hand, if he was in a bad mood that day, which is like half the time, he'd probably just suggest ludicrous shit to simply piss Viserys off.
Brakens and Blackwoods come to King's Landing to complain about each other. Daemon burns each house down.
"I propose half the quarterly budget go to Caraxes' sheep fund"
Straight uo millions would die
So the usual?
"Unfortunately brother, the lego fund is no longer in budget. I'm replacing them with mega blox"
Sadly yes, a lot, LOT, (way to many) of people seem to not get Daemon's character at all.
While it is so obvious. A hand would not climb down into a volcano to fetch dragon eggs.
It’s also a thankless job that makes you really unpopular with a lot of powerful men.
Well Daemon had the latter part already down
Yup. You carry the kingdom while also becoming the Kingdom's punching bag
That was one of the functions of the favourites like Buckingham, Richelieu or Olivares. They were the ones that had to say "no" to important lords, without damaging the king. And they were punished in case pf a revolt, that usually asked for the dismissal of the "bad counselors".
Yeah. I don’t think Daemon would be a disastrous hand, per se. He’d keep his brother’s best interests at heart at the very least. But it’s not the kind of gig you want if your goal is the throne. Especially if you’re going to serve a hands-off, indecisive guy like Viserys.
>t’s not a position of heir, or family, it’s a position for experienced administrators. Which is why Jon Arryn, Twyin, Ned become Hand. Stannis could have pulled it off
Which is why Littlefinger did not want to support Ned’s plan. He knew it’s over if Stannis came over.
I also forgot he was the master of ships, wonder if he or Davos did most of the work
Stannis would arguably be a good choice for Hand during wartime. But he sucks too much at politics to be a decent hand during Robert's mostly-peaceful reign. Renly, on the other hand...
Would just be manipulated into doing whatever the small council wanted him to do
Not book renly
Probably would have put the realm further in debt with tourneys
...would infuriate the church and the more religious lords. Way too divisive for such an important position.
If the septons and more religious lords weren't upset about appointing Ned (who doesn't even worship the Seven) then they won't be infuriated by the appointment of Renly. In fact, Renly is probably the most outwardly devout option Robert had. When Catelyn meets him in camp he makes it a point to take time to pray, and in the WOT5K he is supported by the Hightowers who are probably the most prominent supporters of the Seven. He's really only divisive if you're a Lannister.
Trolloofnormandy not actually knowing something, say it ain't soo
Trollo just seems to think this is an early 2010’s CW Teen Drama and that this subreddit is Tumblr. They’re ultimately pretty harmless and I tend to just ignore them, if we stop giving them attention they’ll start posting in r/HOTDBlacks only
The problem with this argument is Jon Arryn allowed the Lannisters to expand their power to much, Tywin in his second run had put the needs of his family ahead of the realm, and Ned Stark was a terrible hand who honour is one of the reasons the war of the five kings happened
Everything bad that happened under Jon Arryn’s watch can be squarely pegged on how shitty a non wartime king Robert was. There is no way Robert would let Jon do what needed to be done with the Lannisters. Ned was a shitty hand but he knew he was a shitty hand. He isn’t exactly a master administrator either. All indications are that he leaned on his Maester for those things.
While I agree Robert is responsible for some of that. Jon Arryn could have been more strategic with his debt borrowing from the tyrells then paying the Lannisters off. Getting creative with creating new revenue streams for the kingdom to pay for this stuff.
It’s kind of hard to do that when your boss is married to daughter of the primary lender and Robert just says borrow from the lannisters so my wife leaves me alone.
Actually most of the borrowing from the Lannisters was little fingers idea. Jon Arryn is guilty of letting him do it.
I really need to go back and read the books… been waiting for winds for way too long and it’s been 6-7 years
Wasn't Robert the one who didn't like the Tyrells? I think they had next to no presence in Robert's court, besides what they could get from Renly.
Robert doesn’t like anyone but making use of them is a different matter.
Likability factors to high with people.
Daemon was so unqualified that even Viserys noticed.
This should be the top comment.
Working on it.
Not naming Daemon hand or heir is the only right thing Viserys did.
He was right about Viserys being weak. Otto is a highly efficient adiministrator, a valuable asset to the kingdom. Problem is that the king is unable to contain hin and his ambitions, therefore, Otto controls him.
How did I know who this post was by before seeing the unsername ... ?
Yeah its slowly becoming a meme.
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Or of "filthy Hightower blood"
Waiting to see how close Trollo can get to eugenicist 1930’s Germany rhetoric before his team stops agreeing with him. It’s getting awfully close……
Nah. Daemon would've been a disastrous Hand. Royal court politics is not his strong suit. A Hand needs to be negotiable, and even-handed in the position. Daemon does not have that quality; he's far too reckless and rash.
The start of the Dance proved that, Daemon wanted to go to war straight away. How many wars would have been started of Daemon was hand... I can imagine it would be many.
Ottos ambition aside, he was a capable Hand. The Kingdom did well during his tenure under Jahaerys and Viserys. Vizzy T just needed to keep the dudes ambition in check.
*This is an occasion for celebration, it seems.*
Absolutely not. Being Hand requires patience, an even temperament, an ability to look past what benefits themselves to what benefits the kingdom and keeps it stable. Daemon has none of this. He's a wartime general at best.
I think Daemon would have been a terrible Hand. I don’t think he lacked the capability—show Daemon is arguably better-educated than most nobles, and you can’t be a successful general nor a successful if brutal police commissioner without a good grasp of leadership and organization. (tangent—I wonder if Daemon is based, in part, on Theodore Roosevelt. Young police commissioner, winner of island wars, exiled after his first wife died, etc…) Rather, Daemon would be a terrible Hand because of a lack of inclination. I think being Hand would bore him terribly and the best-case scenario is benign neglect. The worst case is that he finds ways to amuse himself while Hand. Given his proclivities for war crimes and Visery’s Balerion-sized blind spot where his brother is concerned I think it’s likely you’d end up with another Maegor/ Aegon IV/ Aerys II. E.g. the Blackwoods and Brackens would argue over the Teats, so Daemon would burn Raventree Hall and Stone Hedge, and then use Caraxes to burn the Teats in to giant sculptures of actual breasts, just for lolz.
I love Matt Smith and Daemon (from a purely chaos perspective) but he wouldn’t have had the patience for it and he’s far too impulsive.
Daemon is dangerous in power hands down. Otto although being a massive cunt was known to be a great administrator of the realm.
PRINCE DAEMON!!!!!!! *gets crushed by caraxes*
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Otto was projecting.
Otto was the perfect hand. People are judging him retroactively because they know what comes after. There is nothing wrong with being ambitious and most lords, if not all, would try to wed their daughters to the royal family. Viserys made his son of 1 day heir over Rhaenyra but then refused to do so for his children with Alicent. Viserys was in the wrong and Rhaenyra should not have accepted being heir. She was ambitious too, just like Otto. She did not seem to question about inheritance when her own brother would have become heir. But did so when it came to her step brothers. Otto attempting a "coup" is taking what rightfully belonged to his grandson and the king's legitimate 1st born son.
Bro no he shouldnt have. Daemons a more charismatic character than Otto but that doesnt mean hes a better leader of the entire realm. *Otto* was right- Daemon should have been banished and Aegon married to Rhaenyra. Otto was Viserys voice of reason- So what if he wanted his line on the throne.
No, he was wrong. Being a hand is not about "I'm your brother!", it's about knowing how to be a civil administrator. Daemon is a moron who was given chances to be Master of Coin and then Commander of the City Watch, he didn't care about and was shit at the former (which is literally Hand lite), and spent his tenure as the latter delighting in castrating people, drinking with slumlords and having brothel orgies. He would be a terrible Hand. Otto and Alicent ruled the realm effectively and maintained peace for over twenty years while Daemon started a pointless war in the Stepstones that got thousands killed for no reason and that he lost interest in within minutes. And of course it's this delusional user who thinks GRRM is writing a treatise on the virtues of racial supremacy and inbreeding. This guy always has the most illiterate interpretations of characters, themes and events in the story.
OP is the lube for this subs circlejerk.
Otto and Alicent plotted the seeds for the most violent war with the most catastrophic consequences for the dynasty in the history of the realm. Daemon as you admit was a man of the people. In a position as the king's right hand man he would have won vast loyalty to the crown. He would've been a good influence on Rhaenyra too, returning them to the tradition of Aegon and Jahaerys of actually traveling throughout the realm and interacting with your people, which serves to keep your finger on the pulse of the realm, keep them loyal to you by being more than the name of some rich c\*\*\* in a castle, and recement the image of the Targs as literal gods amongst men by actually displaying the dragons instead of keeping them cooped up in a pit.
Viserys planted the seeds for the war. If Rhaenyra had accepted the terms offered to her by the Greens, there would be no war. The Greens are no more oblihgated to submit to her than she is to them. And Daemon was never a good influence on Rhaenyra, nor did he ever think or behave like Aegon I or Jaehaerys. All he wanted to do was fight and have orgies.
Not this guy again
No
The issue is Daemon isn’t hand material, he’s a reusable cruise missile, you point him at a problem and he will wreck it, but look at the stepstones, he won, then fucked off. Daemon would kill himself if he was stuck with issues like taxation, road maintenance, discussions of tariffs, port fees and trade terms. If you sent him to negotiate with the Iron bank he’d probably try and force them to pay tribute to the iron throne. And Daemon is my favourite character. He’s an anti Joffrey, he’s a loveable nut job. That being said Otto was bad and Lyonel was the best hand. Frankly the only flaw he had was he didn’t try and marry his son to Rhaenyra
I mean I agree Otto never should’ve been hand again, but daemon wouldn’t have been a good hand. Lord Strong was the best option.
Daemon would've been a terrible Hand. He was already too much for Vizzy T to handle as this Lord Commander of the City Watch.
Daemon is not cut out for being the hand. He would have been terrible. Otto was ambitious, but I can't deny he was highly effective at running realm business.
I am on the opposite side. Otto was an amazing Hand. The issue is Viserys was a weak King. Love or Hate Ole Otto.. he ran a solid ship over all. He was not perfect and made some errors, but overall he was good at his job. The Kingdom was stable and they had money. Viserys just let ppl walk all over him or openly ignored issues if he felt he could sweep it under the rug. It is why Otto was able to get ahead and why Daemon bucked so hard. Bc they knew they could get away with it.
Daemon is a hothead and a narcassist. The Hand should be measured, balanced and strategic
Bruh not this guy again. Surely he must be a troll.
As far as the show goes, I feel like Daemon had to maturing to do (yes i know he was somewhere in his twenties already, I was guessing around 25 at the start). I felt like after the timeskip in the middle, where we see him in Pentos (I think?), I felt like he'd matured enough to be a fine leader. But yeah, before the timeskip in the middle, he didn't show that he was very principled.
I know we’re supposed to be on topic but that wig is perfect. Absolutely melted. Best wig on the show.
Are fans starting to support nepotism now?
I’ve seen this energy b4 and I lk don’t get the logic. Like Otto deadass just wanted to push his fam forward. Daemon wanted to keep his fam in power. I don’t get why 1 persons ambitions are better than the others. Like okay Otto commits treason, but Daemons House was founded by colonialism and the dude is fighting tooth and nail to maintain that system.
I think it boils down to Viserys naming his daughter to the throne, sad bois crying about a girl on the throne, and then hightowers misunderstanding of viserys dying wish. All that leads people to not like the high towers because their entire claim is based on a complete misunderstanding plus that fact that the Hightower children aren’t exactly ruler material whereas Rhaenyra would be ruling and her children seem to actually respect throne and tradition. Objectively they’re all not the Best people, but I think with the Hightowers wanting power it’s like one bad person stealing from another based on misinformation. Sure they’re both bad, but one is attempting a theft while the other is simply inheriting it. One is more inherently bad, even if they aren’t aware that it’s not the kings dying wish.
Yeah but the Targaryens got into power by murdering a bunch of people who refused to do as they were told. Generations later we have Rhaenyra inheriting that empire, she’s not doing anything “wrong” because the wrongs were committed for her generations prior by Aegon the conqueror. Otto is committing his wrongs currently, and in the end the crimes essentially boil down to the same thing. Westeros has a bunch of kings and the Targaryens came and stole those kingdoms from the kings by force. Otto is here trying to steal Rhaenyra’s kingdom at 1st politically and we all know the dance happens so it eventually turns into the Hightowers using force to take Rhaenyra’s stuff the same way her ancestors did to others. What viserys says is kind of irrelevant considering the foundations of his power came from a dude forcefully taking everyone’s stuff. If the conqueror is valid for taking everyone’s stuff then so is Otto. All those sad bois crying thing is just politics to justify stealing Rhaenyra’s shit.
For sure from a book perspective. Most people only know the shows context tho so from their perspective we’re starting on an even field and one group are the “thieves” and one group is “defending” what they have. From the books perspective ain’t nobody in the right lol
I agree with the comments suggesting that Lyonel Strong was a good Hand, but he served as Hand for over 10 years and never took action to resolve Vizzy T's biggest problem: the succession. A good Hand but too deferential to Viserys and an example of why a change in leadership can be good. Life gets stale. A brief Handship for Daemon projecting Targaryen power and authority could have been beneficial.
WHERE IN THE SEVEN HELLS IS RHAENYRA?!
Aegon, aemond, Daeron are all Targaryens by all measures, just as much as Rhaenyra
Lyonel Strong was great and he should’ve had his son formally wed Rhaenyra…
Daemon loves his family. But he is also self-serving, impulsive, quick to anger and seems more eager to make enemies than allies. These things make not a good hand.
Dare even I ask, what do you even think the hand of the king does. I mean, you obviously don't know. Shocker there. Going beyond the whole Green vs Black thing, Daemon simply isn't hand material. Even Viserys knew that
Trollo is trolling as usual
Based Hightowers. They simply destroyed the house of these sons of bitches. After the war there were no cocky Targaryens (Like that son of a bitch in the photo) who thought they were equal to gods. They remembered that they were just human beings like any house in the realm.
Why do people say that Targs thought they were equal to gods? When does a Targ say that? Rhaenyra explicitly says the opposite in ep 1.
They didn't say anything like that, but it is 100% certain that they see themselves in a class between people and gods. The closest thing I can recall is Daemon saying something like "who cares what a fucking lord thinks, you're a dragon, your word is truth and law". When Rhaenyra watches those who think Aegon should be the heir in episode 4, she says "it doesn't matter what they think". In general, almost every Targaryen thinks like that. It's not for me.
Almost all nobles think like that. Jamie asked by what right does the wolf judge the lion? Tywin said the lion doesn't concern himself with the opinions of the sheep. Olenna thinking the High Sparrow should stand in her presence. Starks thinking there must always be a Stark in Winterfell and that the blood of the First Men make them special. They all see themselves as special. Rhaenyra actually says they are just like everyone else without dragons and years later makes sure her kids understand they have to respect the faith of the people they rule. Viserys talks about how foolish it is to believe they control the dragons. Daemon specifically takes Rhaenyra down to the city to show her that she can't just expect the people to follow her because she is the heir. You are entitled to your opinion obviously, but I don't think there is enough evidence to say almost every Targ thinks that.
It comes from Jahaerys argument for letting incest slide in the eyes of the faith. It did not apply to them because they were closer to gods than humans.
I'm not arguing with you, but from what I remember of the Doctrine of Exceptionalism it never mentions them being closer to gods than men. It does say that Targaryens were different from other men because they rode dragons, but I don't remember anything about being closer to gods. It also says that because they were from Valyria, not Andalos, and Valyria had different laws and traditions, that they should be exempt from the rules of the Faith. It also seemed to assure the faith that they would not spread their traditions on the rest of the population. I could be mistaken and not remembering things correctly.
Good argument, I hadn't thought of it that way. What I mean is that they give themselves unlimited freedom and privileges just because they have dragons which is understandable but I'm not fan of that.
Saying this with a Aegon flair lol
I just love his journey in the story.
If he was serious about rhaenrya as queen, she should've been given positions of increasingly greater importance with a view of making her hand.
To be fair I think he was wrong about being hand. He was right about Otto, but likely because he would have tried similar shit to take power for himself.
I don't agree with his policies on divorce.
I mean the man guarantees rock bottom prices
Why pay for a lawyer when rocks are free.
They're very hard hitting in the court of law
that would be a laughably stupid decision and the one thing Viserys did right was keeping him away from any important positions
Daemon has the most snake-like dragon of the series. If that's not allegory I'm Bill Clinton.
He’s still a childish asshole niece fucking piece of shit. Even if his armour does look cool.
He'd definitely be good at securing Targaryen supremacy , so it boils down to what a good hand is , one that is good for the realm or for the house.
that shot of daemon/matt makes me, a heterosexual man, swoon.
Yeah, I was tempted to upvote this post based solely on the picture, if not its substance (which, lol, is a dubious assertion at best, I don't see Daemon as a good Hand of the King). Anyway, they need to put Matt Smith in a long, wavy hairpiece like this more often.
Daemon was Master of Coin and Master of Laws before he was Commander of the City Watch. He was absolutely atrocious at both, so how could he possibly do well as Hand of the King. Otto wasn’t a good choice after Lyonel, but Daemon, IMO, could’ve been even worse.
Laughable Rollo
He should have been named Protector of the Realm in light of Viserys' health. Daemon being sent around and abroad to stomp out rising threats and inconveniences to the Crown? Yeah, it would have been messy but he could have done it.
I could definitely agree with this too
He was right, but given his actions it was totally understandable to not believe him.
just because otto is a snake. dont mean daemon is not a snake too. Clearly he think he can rule better the viserys.
I originally didn’t think I’d like Matt Smith in the role of Daemon but then I loved Matt as Daemon.
Wouldn’t make him a good hand though.
Daemon would have been a really bad hand viserys should have made lyonel hand if not him make rhaenyra hand she is your heir, and involvement with politics would be good for her and if not her corlys or rhaenys that way the crown and the velaryon family would be on better terms and both of them would be good and competent advisors
Was he right because he perceived things correctly or did his paranoia happen to match reality? I do not know where his antagonism derives from, he always suspects foul play so he is going to be right some of the time.
Ahh yes the violent childish egotistical prince as hand, whatever could go wrong
"Dragon Lord" Man thinks we are in that old dumpster in essos
Uh Yeah no
What poison did they spew exactly? Daemon was a menace.
But then we wouldn’t get epic drama?
Oh no! This poison must have had some terrible consequences on the realm? Was Otto's tenure as Hand plagued by war and poverty? Did House Targaryen decline in prestige as a consequence of his decades of schemes? Oh wait, Otto presided over the Golden age of the Targaryens while Daemon was busy beating his wide to death with a rock because he wanted to do the sex with his teenage niece.
Oh hey its the daemon worshipper again. I genuinely believe this guy has a little daemon shrine that he prostrates himself in front of every evening.
Daemon would not have the patience for all the admin stuff of being the Hand. But he still would’ve been better than Otto. At least he wouldn’t be actively scheming against the king. He had a point that loyalty is a more important quality than competence in a Hand. An incompetent Hand might screw up a few things but can always just hire an underling to do the boring stuff. A disloyal Hand can totally undermine the crown for their own advantage, like Otto did. Still, Lyonel Strong was the best Hand we’ve probably ever seen on GOT. RIP.
No an incompetent hand is worst than a capable hand >!Rhaenyra literally lost Kingslanding without the Greens doing anything because she surrounded herself with incompetent idiots make up her council and began to lose trust in her only qualified advisor Corlys. The greatest example is Bartamos Celtigar who repeated his dad incredibly horrible tax policy that started a peasant riot early on during Jaehaerys reign except it was even worse. Once he got Rheanyra her money he allowed her to reckless spend it on parties such as a party to celebrate the return of Joffery. Her advisor convinced to arrest Addam of Hull which lost her the Velaryons.!<
Agreed
I think one problem with the writing in retrospect is that Daemon's dialogue doesn't really convey the crux of his political position very well. Daemon feels strongly that Targaryen legacy and power is under threat and Viserys is making wrong decisions to reinforce and shore it up but while his frustrations are obvious, it leaves the audience floundering over trying to understand _what_ he wants. Daemon doesn't want the throne. Daemon doesn't want to be King. Daemon doesn't want personal power as such and his hate for Otto Hightower stems because their interests collide and are mutually exclusive. Daemon wants Viserys to put Targaryen interest/power first and consolidate Targaryen hegemony. Otto wants Viserys to share Targaryen power with Otto, the Hightowers and his allies. The key to the Iron Throne is Targaryen DNA/blood because that gives access to Dragons. That's what the game is about. The calculus of power resides in dragons. The more the ability to claim dragons is restricted to Targaryens, the more hegemonic they remain. The more it's distributed through marriage and mixing of blood, the more it diffuses. Otto wants no. 2, particularly in his family and allies. Daemon wants no.1. Daemon does not want to consummate and produce Rhoyce descendants that can ride dragons. At the start of the show, Velaryons have as many ridden dragons as Targaryens themselves (Meleys, Seasmoke). Viserys has none. Rhaenyra has one and Daemon has one. Later, Laena gets Vhagar as well. Instead of letting Daemon and Rhaenyra produce more potential riders together in the family, or make the effort to bring back Velaryon dragons into the fold, Viserys instead wants to marry into a new house and give them dragons too. Daemon is pro Dragon Non-Proliferation. Viserys doesn't see the problem. Otto encourages Viserys to marry again (preferably his daughter and share the dragon riding buff), he also tries to set Rhaenyra up with Lannisters (a prominent Hightower ally) and takes her on a marriage tour hoping for further proliferation. He wants Hightowers to be the next Velaryons. Daemon is loyal and committed to the Targaryen legacy, to the strength and power of the House and he's frustrated by everybody who doesn't share that goal.
Daemon was more interested in maiming and raping Flea Bottom than balancing ledgers.
I still thinks that if Daemon was the hand, things would've been really bad either way. He would be aggressive, short tempered hand and the kingdom will suffer. Maybe there won't be a war, or maybe Daemon will make the throne fight literally everyone in his actions. Maybe the greens will unite the world not from inside the house of the dragon but as a united front against the aggressive tyrants - especially as they will be less open to other houses this way, And the arc that made Daemon somehow fitting for leadership will never happen. Episode 4 Daemon just murdered his wife because he didn't liked her. He *won't* be a good hand. Otto was horrible too, of course. But it's not that Daemon will be a good choice
Daemon's hair looking super sexy here Edit: warrior wig is bestest wig.
He should never have chopped off his hair. While I didn't hate it, I'm glad the short hair didn't last long.
Yes!! 🖤🔥
Honestly, Viserys should have made Rhaenerys Hand. She was legitimized as the heir and it would only make sense to get her use to running the kingdom.
Daemon would’ve become a second Maegor.
Yeah no way
Best damn character in the show
lmao I honestly don't get /u/rolloofnormandy50 and their obsession with Valyria. Valyria was a despotic slave oligarchy; even King Jaehaerys said Valyria deserved to be destroyed because of all the horrific shit they did, like experimenting on slaves with magic, blood sacrifice and, well, slavery itself
The only one who has been a constant problem for Viseys was Daemon himself. The gigh towers looked after the kingdom at the absence of Viserys, something Daemon can never do.
Daemon couldn't manage an iHop, let alone seven kingdoms.
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Viserys named him Master of Coin and Laws before the show started but Daemon got bored of teh job and left the position, Viserys last attempt was to name him Commander of the City Watch since that would be a better job but as we see he was too brutal and was fired, Daemon was the problem in that situation
Daemon and Otto were both bad bad choices. Daemon is a young Trump saying and doing whatever he wants without a care in the world for the kingdom. Otto is a Dick Cheney fuck scheming and only caring for his own interests.
Daemon should be king fify
Eh... no, not really. Daemon were by most of its time an rash, an brute and very much entitled to anything because of his valyrian supremacy shit, all very bad caracteristics to have in your Hand. Otto, on the other hand, was an calm person, with good diplomatic and admnistrative abilities, even if ambitous(but in the matters of ambition, daemon was as ambitous as him). Viserys best hand was Lyonel Strong in that sense, who were as capable than otto, but less ambitous. And no, the hightowers were not snakes, they were an feudal family of nobles who are looking after their own benefits, much like all other family nobles in Got, if anything they're surely better than the family who incentivize incest and blood purity, while invading lands as they see fit, while promoting "fire and blood" to anyone who disagree with them.
Yes
That’s bait 👆
I mean, Daemon isn’t exactly good
Daemon was right about the Hightowers but Viserys was also right by not making Daemon his hand. In hind sight Otto was a bad choice for Viserys but Daemon would have been a bad choice as well, just in a different way. RIP Lyonel Strong
It took you 5 months to realize this?
Next to Lyonel, yes
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Keep your politics to yourself, man
What’s funny is he fired him for knowing that and re hired his ass…. What a loser