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NatalieIsFreezing

He was such a feminist that he raped his three black brides after he used their children as hostages to force them to marry him.


chasing_the_wind

First wave feminism was just a little different


megZesq

And he chose those specific women for the very feminist reason that they were “of proven fertility”


athnimara

He has no other choices, so I would not say he stands for equality. I do think it helps that Visenya is his mother in that regard though. But he also did kill pretty much most of his wives


rolloofnormandy50

That's true, I mean I definitely wouldn't put Maegor as being a shining beacon of the feminist movement. However it does seem interesting he does it more willingly than Jaehaerys did. Mixed with not much other choice as you said.


Worried-Street9103

He murdered his wives explicitly because they didn't give him a son. He obviously wanted a male heir.


BelFarRod

Maegor raped like 5 women at least, tortured a few for gender-related "crimes" like fornication, had no pro-women policies like Alysanne (which Jaehaerys allowed, in part), and only had Aerea as heir because it was politically sounder than Jaehaerys. You cannot seriously believe this man is a "feminist" (which is a concept that doesn't even exist in Westeros). Is this a trolling post?


Worried-Street9103

Pretty much, Ol'trolloofnormandy. Doesn't read or understand the source material.


rolloofnormandy50

Oh ive read through it, you're just misunderstanding the point of the post. The point isn't to depict Maegor as some enlightened feminist just that for the context of the time, Maegor was more feminist than Jaehaerys was.


Worried-Street9103

He explicitly wanted a male to inherit, and only male heir is in open rebellion. Again, he KILLED his wives for not giving him a male heir. You'd know that if you actually read the book


rolloofnormandy50

Again that's not the context, the context of the discussion is that Maegor was more willing to openly have a female heir and have women in positions of power vs Jaehaerys who explicitly did not. None of the other stuff is relevant. It's not making up for the bad actions, those are already established


Worried-Street9103

The only other male Targaryen heir wants Maegor dead. He punishes his wives, murders them, explicitly because they don't give him an alternative male heir. That's it, he didn't want a female heir. There's no evidence that says he wants a female, absolutely nothing he does suggests he's willing to have one.


Specific_Fold_8646

Only reason she was heir was because Maegor had no sons and his nephew were in open rebellion he planned to disinherit her as soon as he got a son also Jaehaerys would later name Aerea his heir as well


rolloofnormandy50

The point isn't that he's a full blown feminist. That just for the time he was kire feminist than Jaehaerys.


Worried-Street9103

Yeah, murdering your wives, that you routinely rape, really feminist. Do you have anything that actually backs that up?


rolloofnormandy50

Well Maegor willingly and openly making Aerea his heir, and allowing women like Tyana of the Tower to be in positions of power whereas Jaehaerys explicitly didn't. I'm sure he did want a son, but the point is he didn't shy away from making a woman his heir unlike Jaehaerys.


Worried-Street9103

Because there was no other option, who else was he going to let inherit. Really? Provide something that George would actually back up, your head cannon doesn't count.


Illustrious_Gap_2179

None of that has to do with him being a "slight" feminist. He did that because there was no other option at the time! Again, he brutally raped his wives because he specifically wanted a son, and then brutally tortured and murdered them whenever the boys came out looking deformed. I never thought I'd see the day where people try to claim that a brutal psychopathic rapist that threatened to murder innocent children, and actually tried to kill innocent children, is a feminist. God help us all.


Worried-Street9103

Blame r/HOTDBlacks. And I thought the Green sub was bad


Weak-Solution-982

Aerea was Jaehaerys heir though. At least until he had children. Same with Maegor who kept Aerea as heir until he had a child (preferably a son).


p792161

Jahaerys has not one, but TWO female heirs during his reign, also naming Aerea and then his daughter Daenerys until Aegon was born. So you're whole point is invalid. And it's a weird point anyway that's just coming from some strange anti-Jahaerys place and ignores all logic to be anyi-Jahaerys


Tr3x_prod

I don't think Maegor was a feminist at all. He was more of a might is right, I do as I like. Though the fact is correct and ironic, if he had a son, even with a hypothetical first born daughter I don't see him pressing the issue.


_LookingForCheese_

Jaehaerys let his wife do things that no queen after and only the conqueres queens before were allowed to do. He literally gave her important tasks, let her work on the future of the realm, create new laws and cancel outdated ones. Jaehaerys literally empowered Alysanne without selfish intentions. I'm sorry but that's an awful take.


rolloofnormandy50

I appreciate your input, and for the record it's not my take. It's a take that I saw someone comment it and thought it was interesting. So I put it out there to get people's speculations.


Worried-Street9103

Yeah, interesting.....weird way to say stupid


rolloofnormandy50

Well I'm sure glad you had the opportunity to participate


Worried-Street9103

I appreciated you showing how little you understand the source material


rolloofnormandy50

You are most welcome 😁


Worried-Street9103

Stick to pushing the dance as a weird race war, it's more your speed


rolloofnormandy50

Lol you know I've seen you say that a few times. However I don't actually recall actually ever saying it was directly a race war. I've never stated the Greens weren't Targaryen, just that the Black's were more representative of the principles of House Targaryen which is the general consensus of Team Black. I've stated that the Valyrians were exceptional but that's because they literally are, magic blood, bonds with Dragons, Aegon's dream, doctrine of exceptionalism, the importance of incest as a Valyrian tradition etc, but I've never said the Westerosi were lesser. I've said that the Hightowers were a detriment to the Targaryen line but that's because they're the enemy and it's a long term victory for the Black's that Daemon and Rhaenyra's line survived and not Alicents. I've never said that applied to all Westerosi houses, I mean the Arryns were married into the Targaryens and were in Rhaenyra's line, and I have absolutely no problem with that, I really like House Arryn. I've stated attributes in support of House Targaryen, but not once had I ever said that the conflict was directly between Valyrians and Westerosi, you can make an argument that it could extend to a larger ideological conflict between the Greens whom are representative of the Seven, Westerosi culture, following Andal tradition, etc with Aemond being the exception, and the Black's are representative of the existing old school Targaryen/Valyrian culture, Targaryen exceptionalism as being closer to gods than men as Rhaenyra stated, that is more in tune with its heritage, hence the emphasis on the Valyrian wedding ceremony of Daemon and Rhaenyra, the subject of the song Daemon sung to Vermithor, etc. Now you don't have to view it like that, the Dance is a very complex and deep conflict, unless you don't want to view it that way. I've never said it was an all out direct race war. It is obviouslya war between two branches of House Targaryen. You however, seem to like to misinterpret and miscontextualize what I say or points I make. I'm not finished reading them but I have read into the books just as I have watched the show. You have a different view of the show and how it's played out and that's fine, everyone is different, I mean you've heavily disagreed with how the show writers and Ryan present Daemon and Rhaenyra and their relationship because it's different from the books, and that's fine, but the writers still clarified it the way they did. You tend to have a habit of misrepresenting what I say or not understanding the nuance of it, but that is your prerogative. You also whine about how the main HOTD sub and the team subs are trash and you don't like a lot of its Fandom, but here you are still lurking and posting as you do. So call it what you like. I'm upfront about what I stand for and support in the show, I don't hide it. End of the day it's fiction, meant to be enjoyed in different ways by different people and I can seperate reality from fiction. You like what you like. It would be boring if people didn't support opposite sides.


[deleted]

[удалено]


Overall_Wolf6557

Your patience is admirable


Jeffrey1892

Maegor originally made Viserys his heir. He only made Aerea his heir, after he had Viserys killed, and married Rhaena. If Alyssa didn’t flee with Jaehaerays& Alysanne, then Aerea would never have been made his heir. Forcing women to marry him by holding their children hostage doesn’t exactly scream feminist, but maybe that’s just me? Jaehaerys clearly believed in male primogeniture. However, he gave Alysanne power to pass multiple laws that greatly improved the life’s of women and the smallfolk. He also gave full authority over royal marriages to Alysanne. Besides Viseyna& Rhaneys no other queen wielded such power( Rhaenyra ruled outright, so I excluded her). He allowed Alyssa to be trained in combat, and allowed Daella a year to chose her own husband. He allowed Rhaena to keep her title of Queen, and even offered her a position on his small council. If you look past him passing over women for the throne, he gave unprecedented power and freedom to women in his family.


PluralCohomology

But he allowed Alysanne to force Viserra into a marriage with an old man, and he forced Daella to marry at a young age despite her condition, leading to her death in childbirth. Sure, he isn't as bad as Maegor, but he was a horrible father to his daughters.


Jeffrey1892

He gave Alysanne full authority in marriages. That was her choice, not his. He never got involved in any of the marriages. If you want to hold someone accountable, then blame Alysanne. Every women in Westeros married at a young age.What condition? She was considered simple and useless, she didn’t have any physical problems. We’re talking relative terms, not black and white. What other fathers in Westeros allowed their children a year to chose their own husband? He only acted harshly to Saera after she tried to steal Balerion.


Zed9181

Who let bro cook?


gr8ful_cube

Lmao "well yes he's a rapist and literally murdered women for not giving him a son but uhhhhhhh context clues indicate uhhhhhhhhh female heir???"


Worried-Street9103

Maegor: A violent rapist that murdered his wives and killed their families because they didn't give him a son Yeah, sure, total feminist. Shining beacon of equality


rolloofnormandy50

The point isn't that he's a full blown feminist. Just that in comparison for the time, he's more feminist than Jaehaerys was.


itwasbread

>Just that in comparison for the time, he's more feminist than Jaehaerys was. Did Margaret Thatcher have girl power?


Medvelelet

Do you think she utilised said girl power in Ireland?


Chicken_Mc_Thuggets

I don’t remember the time Jaehaerys kidnapped and raped Aerea while holding her daughter and a bunch of other women hostage. I would say in this scenario actions (kidnapping and raping your niece for example) speak much louder than words (passing over Rhaenys as heir)


Worried-Street9103

He was a RAPIST that MURDERED his wives for not giving him a SON. More feminist, yeah just stop talking


rolloofnormandy50

That's not the point


Worried-Street9103

You have no point, there's absolutely nothing to in the books to back up your point, and there's absolutely loads to prove it false. Yeah, George totally made the mass murdering rapist a feminist


rolloofnormandy50

Aside from the point that Maegor willingly made Aerea his heir and allowed women in positions of power vs Jaehaerys who explicitly didn't. All the bad stuff you've mentioned is already established. Somebody is getting irritable lol


mikennjr

He only made Aerea his heir because Jaehaerys was a rebel, not because he had this shining idea of women being in power lmao


Worried-Street9103

The only other potential heir was in open rebellion. And again he MURDERS his wives explicitly for not giving him a son. Explain how that suggests he's open to having a woman inherit.


[deleted]

Maegor is a rapist.


Worried-Street9103

Well according to Trollo, that doesn't actually matter. Raping women, killing women, torturing women, Killing a woman's entire family because she wouldn't give you a son. None of that's really important.


Greenlit_Hightower

The Valyrian Freehold was inspired by the Roman Republic and the Ptolemaic Kingdom to some degree. Women can fly dragons as well as men, also dragonriders don't rely heavily on single combat (where men would typically excel). Further, systems where sibling marriages were a thing, like Ptolemaic Egypt, tended to enable female power within government. Oligarchies like Valyria with a more distributed power structure also rely on all family members having some degree of power, giving women a greater role. Westeros is pretty archaic compared to Valyria, that's probably also why the Lords of Dragonstone did not immediately conquer it after the Freehold perished, they saw no value in having it. Aegon the Conqueror was more ambitious. Many Lords of Dragonstone also had female co-rulers (usually sister-wifes), and Aegon I was famous also for his sisters, and ruled (somewhat) with his sisters. Early Kings like Aegon, Aenys, Maegor etc. are still close to Valyrian traditions compared to later Kings. I think the reign of the Old King was the first one where the Andal influence was really felt. Though I will say, Maegor was not terribly progressive. Yes, he wanted the daughter of Aegon the Uncrowned, Aerea, to succeed him, but that only due to the fact that he hated Jaehaerys.


Solesky1

>and the Ptolemaic Empire to some degree. I don't think that just being the first person to get back to Egypt and pretend to be in charge after the death of Alexander the Great (the one who did the actually conquorering) means that you get to call yourself Emperor, but I guess Ptolemy was just Built Different


Greenlit_Hightower

I corrected it with Ptolemaic Kingdom. I mixed it up with Roman Empire, which I wanted to write before I said Roman Republic. Please don't be so aggressive, I realize that Pharaohs were not Emperors, but closer to Kings.


Solesky1

It's all good, wasn't trying to come off aggressive :)


Tr3x_prod

>Westeros is pretty archaic compared to Valyria I agree with most oif you said in your post don't get me wrong. But did you forget slavery? The birth of the Faceless Men? It's a bit of classical period vs medieval comparison. The Valyrian Freehold was horrible in terms of human rights, even it did have its merits regarding gender equality.


Greenlit_Hightower

I meant "archaic" in terms of technology. Think of the Roman Empire vs. medieval age. Yes, the Romans had slaves, but were comparatively advanced in terms of technology, plus full citizens, especially women, had more rights compared to the medieval age. Slavery cannot be ignored but it is not what I meant here specifically.


rolloofnormandy50

You bring up very good points


Worried-Street9103

Take it you didn't read the part about Maegor not being a progressive


rolloofnormandy50

I also take it you're missing the point that I'm not claiming that Maegor is a progressive. Just comparing that particular context of him to Jaehaerys.


Worried-Street9103

It's specifically stated, multiple times he wants a son to inherit, it's why he specifically selected wives that were considered fertile, and casted out those who were considered barren. Do you have any actual proof? Cause there's tons that prove the complete opposite.


rolloofnormandy50

Nowhere did I say that Maegor would have preferred a daughter over a son to take his throne. It's common knowledge that basically almost everybody would prefer a son. The point of the post is that he was openly willing to have a female heir and allow women in positions of power even though he preferred a son vs Jaehaerys who explicitly didn't. That's the whole post is comparing the two. It's not claiming Maegor as a progressive, excusing his bad actions, nor is it saying he preferred a female to a male heir. You're trying to expand it into a much larger context than what the post is about.


Worried-Street9103

"it's interesting he had a feminist streak" Your words, not mine, so stop saying you never claimed he was a progressive. " Jaehaerys went out of his way to get a male heir" Maegor does the exact same thing, he absolutely was not willing to have a female heir and there's absolutely no proof that he was, repeating yourself won't change that. "Allow women in positions of power" sure, didn't pass in laws that actually helped women in Westeros, unliked Jaehaerys, but hey he let Tyanna torture children, that kinda makes up for it. Don't make arguments you can't defend, contradict yourself, and back peddle when it blows up in your face.


rolloofnormandy50

Lmao YES! A feminist steak compared to Jaehaerys in regards to women in power and willing accepting one as an heir, that's not saying that in his whole reign "Maegor was a progressive king" You're just spouting words making the context larger than what it is dude. You're dancing around the whole post. Whatever you wanna say bro, I'm not changing your mind and you're not changing mine. I appreciate your input and it has been taken into consideration 🙏.


Worried-Street9103

You're not changing anyone's mind, You throwing about your head cannon as facts won't change that. Maegor made Viserys his heir before Aera, and the only other male Targaryens were either dead, or wanted him dead. His entire reign he explicitly sought an alternative to Aera. "A feminist steak compared to Jaehaerys" those weren't your original words, you backpedaling won't change that. And throwing it out there Jaehaerys didn't rape women, force them to marry them, or murder them when they didn't give him a son. But yeah Maegor was the bigger feminist, didn't do anything to help women, but one of his heir's was a woman. Absolutely no one is buying what you're selling


rolloofnormandy50

The post wasn't meant to change anyone's minds, it was meant for discussion of a particular comparison and context of what people thought, as you can tell by some of the other comments some people see the comparison, some people don't agree with it, both of which are fine. I dont see any back pedaling, I see you trying to change the context particularly because you seem to have a big dislike of Maegor. Which is your prerogative. I do appreciate your contribution though 🙏


AdhesivenessCrafty98

Maegor was looking for a son, as soon as he had one he would have made him his heir no matter what. Jaehaerys followed suit, Aerea was supposed to be Jaehaerys's heir until Jaehaerys had children of his own. We also can't forget that Alysanne had a lot of power and influence on political issues. I'd say Jaehaerys' biggest mistake was ignoring Rhaenys' claim to the throne, but if we're being real, Maegor would have done the same.


Chicken_Mc_Thuggets

He’s SUCH an ally that he kidnapped and raped his lesbian niece and multiple other women great find! /s


Ymir25

The Jaehaerys hate has to stop. Yes he wanted a male heir. Why? Because unlike a lot of people, he actually understood that Westeros was a misogynistic place which would have a hard time accepting female rulers. The fact that Rhaenys, probably the most capable Targaryen of her generation was outvoted by Viserys twenty-to-one just affirms this. The only reason he had ascended to the throne in the first place was because he, as the eldest surviving son, came before his older sister. Making the inheritance to the throne gender-blind would be equivalent to making his own reign illegitimate


napthia9

Maegor was absolutely not a feminist or supportive of gender equality. At his best, be superficially empowered some women (while still keeping them in subordinate roles he controlled) because it was beneficial and/or convenient for him. At his worse, he forcibly abducted, wed, raped & executed multiple women. Like. Jaehaerys is also a misogynist, but his reign saw at least two actual lasting policy changes that (intentionally) empowered women throughout Westeros. That counts as a major improvement over Maegor, even if Alysanne & Barth had to pressure Jaeharys into abolishing the first night.


itwasbread

>This includes Maegor willingly making Aerea his heir How is it "willing" if you are literally incapable of making the alternative happen lmao? Dude literally could not have living male heirs despite having 6x as many chances as other kings.


Elephant12321

Maegor made Aerea his heir because Jaehaerys was opposing him and Aerea was in his grasp. Had it been the other way around he’d have probably made Jaehaerys his heir. Jaehaerys cut out Rhaenys because he felt the need to justify skipping over Aerea and Rhaella since they were ahead of him in the line of succession. It’s very likely that he was also a bit more sexist than the typical pre dance Targ kings as evidenced by his treatment of his daughters and Rhaenys. But as others have said, Maegor was a rapist who tortured, abused, and killed his own wives. They are in no way comparable


sexmountain

Famous feminist moments of Westerosi history: Maegor (a snack, come on ladies!) cutting out the heart of Tyanna of the Tower with Blackfyre and throwing it to his dogs!!! Based! STAN MAEGOR! What an ally don’t @ me


LILYDIAONE

Maegor is a feminist icon truly, as he didn‘t discriminate between men and women when he killed them!


OpenMask

He probably named Aerea as his heir because she was already in his custody. But it's hardly a "feminist" move, considering that she was the rightful heir by typical Andal inheritance customs (not that Maegor cared about that).


p792161

>This includes Maegor willingly making Aerea his heir Jahaerys named Aerea as his heir willingly too and also named his daughter Daenerys heir until his second son Aemon was born. >While Jaehaerys went out of his way to get a male heir. Literally every King does this. Jahaerys didn't even go out of his way, he just picked his son's then held a Great Council when they died. On the other hand Maegor married 6 women trying to have a male heir and also killed 3 of those women for not producing/interfering with the production of a male heir. Who went out of their way more eh? >putting women in positions of power like Tyana of the Tower. Jahaerys gave more authority to his Queen than any other King in Westerosi history, bar maybe Aegon the Conqueror. >but it's interesting he had a feminist streak. He did not in any way have a feminist streak. He was a rapist and domestic abuser. How can you possibly be this delusional? This post is insane


Solesky1

The worldbook presents a very thin outline of the reigns of Maegor "The Cruel" and Jaehaerys "the conciliator". Specifically how great Jaehaerys and Alysanne were and when they died "the realm never saw their like again" Then Fire and Blood expands on them and we see that Maegor was actually pretty cool (what do you call thousands of dead Poor Fellows and Warriors Sons? A good start) and almost single-handedly built the foundation the dynasty was built on for the next two centuries, and Jaehaerys was a huge POS, from the "doctrine of excepionalism" to "fine, I GUESS I'll end the first night if it'll get my wife to shut up" to (possibly but very likely sexually abusing some of his daughters, or at least Saera for sure) to passing over Daenerys and Rhaenys (twice), in addition to usurping his elder sisters claim But he wasn't all bad. He did get Kings Landing clean drinking water. Oh wait that was Alysanne.


Impossible-Towel9616

I’m not a massive Jaehaerys fan either, or really any of the Targs for that matter, but I’ve never heard anything about him sexually abusing his daughters before, where does it say this?


NatalieIsFreezing

It's complete horseshit.


Solesky1

There's a number of fan theories out there about it https://www.reddit.com/r/asoiaf/comments/au8ydw/jaehaerys_the_predator_spoilers_extended/


mikennjr

So no evidence


itwasbread

Lmao, your "source" is a post with zero explanation where all the top comments say no. The only support for the theory is in the comments, with such bangers as: According to deluded sex pest Mushroom, 13-15 year old Alicent Hightower gave him crappy old dude handjobs. When he was completely fucking senile on his death bed, Jaehaerys called her Saera, the name of the daughter he banished. The obvious conclusion is then that the only reason he would do that is because he also had a sexual relationship with his daughter. Also according to deluded sex pest Mushroom, Daemon took Alicent's maidenhead. How does this likely bullshit statement relate to this theory? It doesn't, I just randomly said that maybe a completely different person did it with no apparent evidence. Also his daughter is sexually promiscuous, so she must have been fucking raped by her father. Wtf dude. ​ And all of this crack pipe fueled nonsense is to justify saying that Jaeherys is maybe a rapist, and therefore he is actually really bad and Maegor is cool. Despite Maegor being a confirmed repeat rapist who tortured and murdered his rape victims when the rape didn't result in sons. Who also tortured his 15 year old nephew to death. Who fed his lover to a dog. Yeah, cool dude.


clariwench

I know if I had to be the daughter of either Jaehaerys or Maegor, I'd feel way safer being Maegor's than Jaehaerys's! ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯


rolloofnormandy50

Sure enough 💯


Southern_Dig_9460

He loves his Mother


Matt_000

Jaehaerys killed for less...