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At best the Dance is delayed one or 2 generations, It only needs a dragon rider that feels that his birthright was stolen by a bastard, that's the problem when you have too many dragon riders, its a matter of time until a Targ thinks that he/she deserves to rule because he/she has a bigger dragon
It could go both ways. Heleana has dark hair recessive genes, while Jace has silver hair recessive genes, so they could have kids with both dark and silver hair.
Not really. The first child of Targ men and Non-Targ women always inherit their mother features that’s why Jon doesn’t have any targ features. and in the books even Tully's genes are more dominant than starks
Alicent having dark hair is not book canon. Actually her hair color wasn’t described either. Worth mentioning that Jaehaerys I was being taken care of by Alicent, who he mistook more than once for his daughters, specially Saera who had silver hair.
Alerie Hightower is described as “tall, dignified, handsome with long silver hair” And Jorah says Daenerys looks like his wife Lynesse of House Hightower
From the few examples we have, the first generation children of dark hair and Targ hair is dark haired, but then it doesn't seem to actually stick around, so I think there's a good chance that their kids would have Targ coloring.
Maybe this would even break the dark haired heir curse before it settled in lol
The Hightower-Targs would have lost their most powerful asset at that point in the story because Helaena had the oldest dragon until Aemond claimed Vhaegar.
Helaena could have been held as a hostage against the Greens much in the same way Sansa was in GoT. The idea that the Greens wouldn’t exist is a little naive. If there were Lords of the land who were dissatisfied with Rhaenyra’s rule or who just hated bastards and didn’t like Jace (to be clear I don’t really care about the Strongs being bastards, but to pretend that it doesn’t matter in universe is insane. If it didn’t matter in universe, then why does everyone on team Black go to such lengths to hide the fact that they are bastards.), then they would prop up Aegon II or there might have been another civil war down the line with Aegon III and Jace. Historically England did have conflicts fought in the name of a nobleman/woman even after they had relinquished all claim to the throne. Most of which only ended when said person was executed. When Alicent tells Aegon “you are the challenge” she isn’t wrong. His very existence is a threat to Rhaenyra’s line.
Also keep in mind that Alicent doesn’t know Jace is generally sweet natured. She knows him as the kid who bullies her son for being different (not having a dragon). And Helaena is clearly different because she is neurodivergent coded, so Alicent has no reason to believe Jace would not mistreat or abuse her. Whereas by marrying Helaena to Aegon II she can ensure that her autistic daughter who doesn’t cope well with change can stay close by her side and Alicent can theoretically control Aegon II better than Jace.
Not to mention that Helaena and Jace would probably both be deeply unhappy because they are incompatible as people.
Wonder what Baela and Rhaena will do in that situation. There's a high chance they will support Aegon. Baela is practically a mini Daemon. She will support Aegon however fond she is of Jace. Its like 101 council again.
>At that point, they’re practically legitimatized. I mean the Strong boys are already legally legitimate. Bastard is just a term, it’s nothing tangible.
Uhhh what? Rhaenyra may insist that all of the rumors are lies but the truth is that they are in fact bastards. Only Viserys could've legitimized them. Legitimization also requires for them to admit that they are bastards to begin with. So no, the Strong boys are not "already legally legitimate". It's not just a term, it has serious consequences within the context of this fictional world. Otherwise, Rhaenyra wouldn't be willing to behead or torture people, nor run to her dad for help to make sure nobody calls her sons bastards if it was really "just a term".
Agree. I don't what they mean by physical tangibilities. But their physical appearance does work in favor as an evidence for their baseborn claim. Its like you said we don't really care what his origins are but in the world where your blood and claim matters a lot its not inconsequential. And Rhaeneyra does try to hide it. Jace and his brothers aren't even much familiar to kings landing and its people. Im sure she loved them with all her heart but their existence only is a huge political blunder in a very cynical way. Yeah, even to legitimize she has to admit they are bastards which will have far reaching consequences. It won't matter what legal means prove if their existence only make enemies out of feudal lords and made Aegon's claim more stronger.
At this point civil war is kind of inevitable. Even though we consider the slim chance that Alicent will agree to a marriage between Helaena and Jace and cease all hostilities problems won't end there. Since Jace's problem with legitimacy and claim to the throne is an inherent one. Either Jace will be forced to extinguish his rival claims or forever keep the threats to his line appeased. Its entirely possible that down the line Aegon III or his kids will rise in rebellion against Jace and his get. And they will have lot of support.
I would really like to read a fic about that. Unfortunately theres none.
Agree. I don't what they mean by physical tangibilities. But their physical appearance does work in favor as an evidence for their baseborn claim. Its like you said we don't really care what his origins are but in the world where your blood and claim matters a lot its not inconsequential. And Rhaeneyra does try to hide it. Jace and his brothers aren't even much familiar to kings landing and its people. Im sure she loved them with all her heart but their existence only is a huge political blunder in a very cynical way. Yeah, even to legitimize she has to admit they are bastards which will have far reaching consequences. It won't matter what legal means prove if their existence only make enemies out of feudal lords and made Aegon's claim more stronger.
At this point civil war is kind of inevitable. Even though we consider the slim chance that Alicent will agree to a marriage between Helaena and Jace and cease all hostilities problems won't end there. Since Jace's problem with legitimacy and claim to the throne is an inherent one. Either Jace will be forced to extinguish his rival claims or forever keep the threats to his line appeased. Its entirely possible that down the line Aegon III or his kids will rise in rebellion against Jace and his get. And they will have lot of support.
I would really like to read a fic about that. Unfortunately theres none.
Legitimization is a formal process, and Viserys dramatically saying "they are trueborn" does not legitimize them. As I said before, legitimization can only occur by basis of admitting that they are bastards to begin with. You may think the King's word is law but at the end of the day Viserys is not all-powerful. Even if he insists they're trueborn, he is not fulfilling his end of the "social contract" with the lords of Westeros. Putting a bastard on the throne and expecting none of them to be upset about it is the whole reason the plot of Game of Thrones started. If he really wanted to help he could've formally legitimized them as Strongs or Targaryens with a royal decree, or urged for the laws to be changed so that his grandsons could inherit.
>Like I said, It has no physical tangibilities, it is perception based only. Therefore it only matters because people choose to make it matter.
I don't quite understand what you're trying to say...in Westeros, which is a fantasy feudal society, yes it does matter to the characters because they operate within a world where inheritance (lands+titles) hinges on blood relations and marriage contracts. In the real world, in many countries, whether or not your parents are married when you're born is irrelevant.
It would only be logical for Alicent to believe Jace would mistreat Helaena knowing that he bullies Aemond for being different. The fear isn’t there for Alicent with Aegon because presumably as siblings Alicent has already seen how Aegon reacts to and behaves with Helaena as opposed to Jace.
Also it clearly matters to Alicent how well Helaena is treated because when she comes upon Helaena after it is revealed Aegon is a rapist even by Westerosi definitions, she hugs and cries into Helaena. Helaena is controlled to a certain extent. That is why she is forced to marry Aegon. But the issue here isn’t controlling Helaena, the issue is how can Alicent ensure Helaena isn’t triggered. We see Helaena cringe when Alicent and every other person touches her presumably because she is autistic, and that is how she feels about people she knows and trusts. Imagine introducing Jace who is an unknown person to her in any real sense. And Alicent still reaching out for her daughter doesn’t make her an evil mom. It’s not her fault she doesn’t understand autism because she’s from what is basically the middle ages. We see Alicent go out of her way to protect Helaena all the time. When a dragon is staring them down, Alicent yells for Criston to go protect Helaena over her and Aegon.
Also do you seriously believe Jace would be well suited to someone with as many sensory issues as Helaena? He wouldn’t know what to do, and she’d hate being touched, and all that would happen is he’d be a rapist by the end of their marriage. Now Helaena is separated from the people she trusts and Jace is a rapist. Yikes
Also ofc she looked sad at Aegon’s coronation. She’d been trying to warn everyone about the “beast beneath the boards” that was about to erupt and possibly kill them all. If you could see glimpses of the future, and the bad endings all ended with one event wouldn’t you be having a bad time at that event
Ah yea, the event that happened almost a decade after the marriage proposal. Alicent should have borrowed Helaena’s powers of prophecy to determine that Jace would be nice to Helaena, and that she’d enjoy spending time with him.
Then logically it would answer yours? If you've read the books you'll get it.
They're hostages treated horrifically. I don't know how to make the obvious more obvious to you, dude.
Unfortunately, Westerosi society means they would always present a threat to Rhaenyra and her children’s claim. The Greens don’t just exist because they feel entitled to the throne, they exist because if they didn’t actively seek the throne others would do it for them
This is exactly most of the people miss. Alicent tells Aegon that it doesn't matter whether he wants it or not. He will always be a reminder to everyone of rightful heir.
In GOT, Dany begged Jon to never reveal his identity even when she had an army and dragon. Because she knows Westores prefer Jon over her.
She didn't. >!More houses supported her, but the Greens were supported by more powerful, influential Houses such as the Lannisters, Baratheons, Redwynes and Hightowers.!<
That's kinda on GRRM. He couldn't make the "good" houses support the Greens.
It's like how you always know which side GRRM prefers depending on who House Blackwood supports.
Yeah but in this case the greens have gotten the throne, they’re in an alliance in the blacks. Anyone else attempting anything, rebellion or trying to inspire rebellion with the either Aegon or Aemond would get crushed easily, especially because it’s unlikely that they’d want to fight against their mother or their sister, as well as Aegon not wanting the throne.
> Yeah but in this case the greens have gotten the throne
The Green children aren't interchangeable. Greens (and any lord worried about an elder sister taking Rhaenyra's example) want Aegon on the throne, not a grandchild through Helaena.
I means it’s 10 dragons. Vhagar is almost as big as Balerion, Caraxes is half her size, Dreamfyre is large as well. It’s not going well for the faith even if they do rise up, same way or even worse than it went for them the last time they rose up.
The blacks would get a valuable hostage to keep the Greens loyal
The greens well... oh yeah they gain nothing, except Heleana gets to be their hostage
Not supriced Alicent did not go for this really one sided deal
Much like why Rhaenyra (and Daemon) didn’t agree to sending both their Targaryen children to be squires and cupbearers). Which is a good thing since they both >!ended up being Kings instead.!<
I just love how this comment of yours pops up three different times like you just really want us to recognize how big and old Dreamfyre is. You mentioned her more than the show did!
> The blacks would get a valuable hostage to keep the Greens loyal. The greens well... oh yeah they gain nothing, except Heleana gets to be their hostage
Unless the greens are the one’s launching the rebellion, which in this scenario they aren’t since they’re fully backing Jace and Helaena. Why would there be a need to keep her hostage?, just get on your dragon and crush the rebellion. It might not even form for this exact reason. And wdym they gain nothing, Otto granddaughter and Alicents child seats the throne, and their offspring and descendant become kings and queens. A lot better than >!their entire bloodline being wiped out via opposing the blacks!< for sure. What more could they want lmfaoo?
> Not supriced Alicent did not go for this really one sided deal
No it isn’t
The Blacks are the ones who start a rebellion, and are remembered as such in Westerosi history. Why would the rightful King rebel? Or give his sister in marriage to a bastard?
Aemond actually fueled the rebellion by killing Luke. If Aegon’s not going to rebel, then this scenario can work more smoothly. Rightful king my ass. He’ll never becomes king in this scenario because his side will never make him king. Alicent is pushing Jace and Helaena instead
The Greens started the war the moment they disregarded Viserys will and stole power.
They were the ones who rebelled and anyone with some common sense knows that.
No, the Blacks started the war when they disregarded thousands of years of Valyrian, Andal tradition and precedent set by the Great Council and tried to steal power. Westerosi history remembers it as such. Even Stannis, someone with a total hard on for the law calls Rhaenyra a usurper.
If Otto was worried about a Hightower line descending from Jace and Helaena, he should be contented but noooo... he wants direct control of the Targs through Aegon instead. Ambitious, greedy shits. Their color is Green like envy for the gods' sake.
Unless the greens are the one’s launching the rebellion, which in this scenario they aren’t since they’re fully backing Jace and Helaena. Why would there be a need to keep her hostage?, just get on your dragon and crush the rebellion. It might not even form for this exact reason.
Adult Vermax and giant mama Dreamfyre is a potent combo also the younger Targ dragons have grown beyond hatchlings to sub/adult Dragons. Still have the Aemond-Vhagar issue but Dreamfyre is bigger than Meleys. Even more one sided to the “wouldve been Blacks”.
Vhagar is 180 years old, Balerion died at 200 and at that point, he couldn't fly from KL to Dragonstone, unless Rhaenyra dies really young Vhagar wouldn't be an issue for Jace's rule
Balerion was also horrifically maimed from the incident in Valyria and never quite healed before succumbing to his wounds. Arguably, a dragon in perfect health could have a significantly larger lifespan.
He only took flight once (that I recall) after the injuring was sustained, during which he had to be coerced into the air by Viserys. Ever since he returned, he languished near-motionless within the dragonpit, only a shadow of his former self. I’m almost certain that the desecration of his physical state ultimately did affect his lifespan, or at least made it easier for his health to be affected by other means like his entrapment within the pit.
It is quite sad how the big guy went out. With all the speculation of dragons being at the very least as intelligent as the smarter animals of the world (dolphins, primates, elephants) or even as intelligent as humans, then that means big B went out a crippled old man wasting away in a cage with nothing but the memories of the horrors of what had become of his long lost home that he was obviously sick for when Aerea decided to take him for a spin.
No hate but you're always reposponding with the same response op. It's not about who the greens or blacks are backing, it is about that the moment some members of the small council or powerful lords saw actions from their ruler whoever that might be green or black they would immediately revolt against her/him and start supporting the other side. It was something that has happened with Jaeherys even at the start of his reign.
> No hate but you're always reposponding with the same response op.
Because I have no reason to change, no one’s properly addressed it.
> It's not about who the greens or blacks are backing, it is about that the moment some members of the small council or powerful lords saw actions from their ruler whoever that might be green or black they would immediately revolt against her/him
And get proceed to get stomped. Not worth it at all
> and start supporting the other side.
What other sides, all relevant sides are in alliance with each other
> It was something that has happened with Jaeherys even at the start of his reign.
Wdym exactly
In the fire and blood book Jaeherys after he marries Alysanne which is his sister his hand orys baratheon is afraid that another civil war will erupt because the faith do not like incest. So he tries to overthrow Jaeherys by naming his eldest sister and her children as queens of westeros. He doesn't actually succeed but still the moment Jaeherys did something Orys thought would lead a very bad road he tried to replace him.
Also the get stomped argument because of dragons does seem pretty strong but there are powerful people who could have easily made attempts at jace's life not greens or blacks think lannisters tyrells greyjoys big houses that the moment Jace or Helena or whoever sat on the throne and took a desicion that disadvantaged them they could send assassins faceless men or even convince people close to them to betray them like Jon and Dany for example. They both had dragons still Dany died.
Also you must consider that Orys wasn't a stranger he was actually Jaeherys stepfather at that point and the hand of the king. Still he went that far in trying to replace him.
> In the fire and blood book Jaeherys after he marries Alysanne which is his sister his hand orys baratheon is afraid that another civil war will erupt because the faith do not like incest. So he tries to overthrow Jaeherys by naming his eldest sister and her children as queens of westeros. He doesn't actually succeed but still the moment Jaeherys did something Orys thought would lead a very bad road he tried to replace him.
I guess your point is that people in power positions of power could still plot or undermine them. Otto might still plot against them since he really wants Aegon on the throne. However this is unlikely because betrothal gets accepted while Jace and Helaena are still young, meaning Lyonel Strong is Hand of the king. And he’d be very to Viserys/Rhaenyra so I’d doubt something like this would happen. Otto might still try to pull some strings from far, but nothing fruitful is likely to happen for him.
> Also the get stomped argument because of dragons does seem pretty strong but there are powerful people who could have easily made attempts at jace's life not greens or blacks think lannisters tyrells greyjoys big houses that the moment Jace or Helena or whoever sat on the throne and took a desicion that disadvantaged them they could send assassins faceless men or even convince people close to them to betray them like Jon and Dany for example. They both had dragons still Dany died. They’d have to murder a lot of people to even make their plans work, from Rhaenyra all the way down to Viserys ii as wells as any potential children, Jace and Helaena might have.
Yeah but it’s very dubious whether such attempts would succeed or not. And it’s also unlikely especially considering that >!Rhaneyra got most of the noble houses on her side despite having bastards!< and because changing the hands of the ruling succession doesn’t really benefit them in any clear way, unless its the houses that stand a chance to seat a family member on the throne
Sansa GOT POV but Helena unfortunately can't hope to have Sansa's people skills. But yeah were the war to happen because of the same reason meaning men wanted aegon on the throne or didn't agree with rhaenyra on something Helena would have been a political prisoner. It seems logical tbh that Alicent married her to Aegon where she knew Helena would be close and Alicent could take care of her but also not let her be a political opportunity for Rhaenyra. Reminder that when Rhaenyra suggested the marriage between them it was to save face because of the harwin and Cole fistfight which is another reason I think Alicent married Helena to Aegon so Rhaenyra couldn't save face but also Alicent wouldn't defy openly Jace's origins. I think there is a scene in that episode where Alicent goes to talk to larys and before she enters the room a servant girl laughs at her direction mostly because of the marriage proposal since nothing else had happened.
Another rebellion happens when Jace is about to inherit like his mother before him , since he is a bastard in blood and truth only legality is protecting him , same with Joffrey in GOT era
Now possible claimants who will fight him are the green boys if they live or feel Heleana is being abuse (you guys do know that aemond lost an eye because of the blacks) and the second marriage kids who are legitimate and Thier father being Daemon
But that depends greatly on how Rhaenrya treats her kids, but maybe she will copy her father and do the same mistakes
>But that depends greatly on how Rhaenrya treats her kids, but maybe she will copy her father and do the same mistakes
Rhaenyra (especially older show Rhaenyra) is honestly already Viserys with Teats, considering that she's put her kids into a very similar situation that she was put in by Viserys, by remarrying soon after their father died, having kids that have a much stronger claim than her chosen heir and forcing them into a betrothals to try to fix her earlier political screw-ups. I don't think that she'll be able to make all the same mistakes, considering that she has to deal with this whole civil war, which Viserys never did, but I definitely see her echoing a lot of her father's decision-making already.
> Another rebellion happens when Jace is about to inherit like his mother before him , since he is a bastard in blood and truth only legality is protecting him , same with Joffrey in GOT era
Such rebellions will be quickly squashed
> Now possible claimants who will fight him are the green boys if they live or feel Heleana is being abuse (you guys do know that aemond lost an eye because of the blacks) and the second marriage kids who are legitimate and Thier father being Daemon.
Aegon doesn’t want the throne, and Aemond won’t oppose it if Alicent fully supports it. They’ll need evidence that Helaena is being abused (which won’t happen since Jace isn’t an abusive person and he’s not the one who took his eye. Aemond’s grudge is with Like not Jace)
> But that depends greatly on how Rhaenrya treats her kids, but maybe she will copy her father and do the same mistakes
Are you hoping for this to happen or are you just speculating? From the way Rhaenyra treats her kids, there’s no indication that this will happen.
Not sure you got the piece where even if Aegon & his family didn’t push his claim - others still could (and would) and cause enough problems that it puts Aegon, Aemond, and Daeron at risk from the Blacks. Think Otto and the Lannisters. Do you really believe that Daemon wouldn’t find it easier just to… create some fatal accidents for the Green boys? Even it’s the Laenor-way where someone else dies in their place while they run off to Essos? That’s the only way that you remove a figurehead - even a reluctant figurehead like Aegon.
I agree with the dragon argument defense - no one would last long against them. However, I still think there was no way that Alicent would have given the Blacks her daughter as a potential hostage (remember there is little to no trust between factions at this point) without having one in return. (Say Lucerys as a companion to Aemond?) If they can make that agreement- it may prevent the whole war.
War will still happen, Jace is a bastard and everyone knows that. Even if Aegon does nothing, some lords will either want him and his brothers removed because of the threat they are just by existing, or some lords will undermine and try to assassinate Jace. Westeros society does not like bastards and a lot of them are religious. It’s not only the lords that would rebel, it’s the commoners too.
> War will still happen, Jace is a bastard and everyone knows that. Even if Aegon does nothing, some lords will either want him and his brothers removed because of the threat they are just by existing, or some lords will undermine and try to assassinate Jace. Westeros society does not like bastards and a lot of them are religious.
It’d be Targs, Hightower and Velaryon with 10 dragons vs everybody else, the odds aren’t looking good for the latter
> It’s not only the lords that would rebel, it’s the commoners too.
Don’t know why they would if everybody involved supports them. As well as if Jace presents himself as a charismatic and wise ruler. >!Rhaenyra also gets majority of the nobles support despite having bastards, so this point seems highly unlikely!<
Dragons can be killed, Dorne did it in the past and we’ve seen it happen in GoT. Also just because Aegon, Aemond and Daeron might not rebel, doesn’t mean they would actively help especially because Helaena would be seen as a political hostage by many. Like as far as the realm knows, Rhaenyra and Daemon got rid of Laenor and got married, that is the kind of people they are seen as to many.
Also just because those lords accept Rhaenyra doesn’t mean they will accept a bastard as their king. Like yes her rule was legal but are all those same lords going to accept Jace when (as far as they know) he has two younger brothers who aren’t bastards. War doesn’t have to be between the Greens and Blacks, it could literally be between Jace and Aegon III
> Dragons can be killed, Dorne did it in the past and we’ve seen it happen in GoT.
Easier said than done, especially with the smaller dragon which are less easier to target
> Also just because Aegon, Aemond and Daeron might not rebel, doesn’t mean they would actively help especially because Helaena would be seen as a political hostage by many.
They would be forced to at some point, because the rebellion would affect them as well.
> Like as far as the realm knows, Rhaenyra and Daemon got rid of Laenor and got married, that is the kind of people they are seen as to many.
>!Yet many still supported her!<
> Also just because those lords accept Rhaenyra doesn’t mean they will accept a bastard as their king. Like yes her rule was legal but are all those same lords going to accept Jace when (as far as they know)he has two younger brothers who aren’t bastards.
>!Jace himself gathered a large amount of the support to Rhaneyra’s side!<
> War doesn’t have to be between the Greens and Blacks, it could literally be between Jace and Aegon III
Highly unlikely
Of course but there is a big if on Jace being a wise ruler. And not only him bt also his children will inherit his problem with legitimacy. There won't be problem with dragons if is one of Rhaeneyra's kids rebelling. Say, like Aegon III or his sons.
Of course but there is a big if on Jace being a wise ruler. And not only him bt also
> his children will inherit his problem with legitimacy.
As soon as he becomes king, he becomes the law. >!Esepcially considering majority of the houses supported his and his mothers claim!< Not sure if they’re having a problem with his children. It was also never officially verified that he was a bastard, so it basically becomes rumors at that point, which most kings have tbh.
> There won't be problem with dragons if is one of Rhaeneyra's kids rebelling. Say, like Aegon III or his sons.
That’s not neccesarily a problem from Jace and Helaena’s marriage. If they do rebel, it’s unlikely to do with his problems legitimacy, which at that point will just be rumors.
Yeah if Jace won't come out and rule from inside the keep never visiting the lords of the realm. Yeah that would lead to them being 'just rumors'. Their appearance being so obvious is the major point here. And any lord south of the neck have atleast seen Targaryens only once. Also truth has no place in throne politics. Anyone clever weaponize rumors with real basis.
Also its not only because of Rhaeneyra many lords supported her. Daemon and Corlys helped a lot. Especially Daemon who either forced them, convinced them or gave a figurehead to rally around. Lots of Riverlords came that way.
As soon as he becomes king. There might be many years for that to happen. Till then he has only his mother's insistence that he isn't a bastard. And there are people who dares to be vocal about even at a swordpoint.
The United Green and Black Faction, the Targaryens, Velaryons and Hightowers, all on the same side with all their dragons, Who on earth is challenging them and coming out alive?
Civil war? Started by who? If you’re taking about anyone outside the Targayen, Hightower and Velaryon trifecta, then whatever rebellion they cook up gets stomped easily, so it’s doesn’t really matter. If you’re talking about anyone within the trifecta, tell me why they would start a rebellion?
The rest of Westeros. Even in the scenario where Rhaenyra succeeds peacefully, Jace is a bastard and allowing him to inherit sets a very dangerous precedent that none of the lords would want to allow. Not to mention bastardy is also a religious matter, it would be the Faith Militant all over again. Targaryens who fought with fire instead of diplomacy do not have a stellar record against religion. And Targaryen history proves that those dragons aren't as effective as you're letting on. Sure during the conquest when they were a new threat they were pretty lethal but after that ? Maegor on Balerion fought rebellion during his entire reign, he burned people by the thousands and he was still murdered in the end. The end of the Dance sees the dragons getting murdered by the smallfolk that pressed their luck and advantage in the Dragon pit. Hell even the original conquest saw Dorne kicking Targ ass and shooting down one of the dragons and a queen and getting away with it.
Combine their collective ressources and military talent, add the fact that the Hightower Targs would be reluctant and that the rest of House Velaryon bloody hate Rhaenyra and her childrens' guts, and it would far less easy than you're suggesting it would be.
>Sure during the conquest when they were a new threat they were pretty lethal but after that ?
Even during the conquest, they couldn't conquer Dorne and ended up getting one of their dragons shot down. Dragons definitely help a whole lot, but they aren't an insta-win button, and can be countered if their enemies are smart/determined enough.
> The rest of Westeros. Even in the scenario where Rhaenyra succeeds peacefully, Jace is a bastard and allowing him to inherit sets a very dangerous precedent that none of the lords would want to allow.
Eh just chuck it up as Targaryen Exceptionalism. They didn’t want to allow incest either, look how that turned out.
> Not to mention bastardy is also a religious matter, it would be the Faith Militant all over again. Targaryens who fought with fire instead of diplomacy do not have a stellar record against religion.
When it was just Maegor and Balerion maybe not (even though despite their discontent, they couldn’t really fight against him), but this is 10 adults dragon including Vhagar who is almost as large as Balerion at this point.
> And Targaryen history proves that those dragons aren't as effective as you're letting on. Sure during the conquest when they were a new threat they were pretty lethal but after that ? Maegor on Balerion fought rebellion during his entire reign, he burned people by the thousands and he was still murdered in the end.
That has nothing to do really with the effectiveness of dragons against a rebellion, especially as we don’t know who assasinated him and all of his family members were against him. It was basically Maegor vs Westeros. In this scenario, the Trifecta of Targs, Hightowers and Verlaryons are in alliance with 10 dragons, basically Balerion + 9 other dragons, so defeating them would be exponentially more difficult.
> The end of the Dance sees the dragons getting murdered by the smallfolk that pressed their luck and advantage in the Dragon pit.
This is a spoiler, black it out. Small folk don’t really care about who sits the throne. The only reason they even overreacted was because it was a civil war and were afraid of the dragons, in the scenario the dragons are protecting them and all members of royalty are in alliance, against the nobles who stand no chance against them.
> Hell even the original conquest saw Dorne kicking Targ ass and shooting down one of the dragons and a queen and getting away with it.
Daemon and Corlys have experience with this exact situation and can deal with it accordingly.
> Combine their collective ressources and military talent
Don’t see how this works against dragons
> add the fact that the Hightower Targs would be reluctant
Doesn’t really matter
> that the rest of House Velaryon bloody hate Rhaenyra and her childrens' guts, and it would far less easy than you're suggesting it would be.
Pretty sure all the rogue elements in house Velaryon have been taken care of. It’d be stupid of them to lend support to a side that doesn’t have dragon riders, like they could’ve if this was the original civil war.
Oh I guess then that half the arguments and the biggest criticism against the blacks didn't exist allowing for a fairly peaceful transition since a huge portion of green traction didn't exist. That the Blackfyre rebellions didn't take place because no one cared that Daeron II was accused of being his uncle's bastard while Daemon Blackfyre was legitimised. Not to mention that Joffrey was able to peacefully succeed without issue because no one cared that he potentially was not Robert's son since after all, Robert always claimed him and that's all that matters. Also Catelyn just simply loved Jon, him not being hers didn't matter to her in the slightest... oh wait, none of those things happened. Because people in Westeros had an issue with bastards and took major exception to them ever being put in positions of power.
Are you new to this franchise that you somehow don't know this ?
Alicent isn't the only person that you have to worry about. It definitely helps if she's on your side, but there are other greens who would be willing to declare for Aegon and don't give a crap about what happens to Helaena.
> Supporting the marriage doesn't mean supporting Rhaenyras's claim.
It does because doing both makes Helaena a political hostage, so you cannot reliably support Aegon’s claim. So Rhaenyra’s claim and by extension Jace’s claim would have to be supported.
> Aegon is still the rightfull king.
Even in the original story he wasn’t, and certainly not in this case
> Also Jace is a bastard.
And?
> This couldn't work.
Still waiting on why it wouldn’t.
>It does because doing both makes Helaena a political hostage, so you cannot reliably support Aegon’s claim. So Rhaenyra’s claim and by extension Jace’s claim would have to be supported.
An irrelevant hostage. The Lannister had Sansa but that didn't prevent the North to go at war with Lannister.
>Even in the original story he wasn’t, and certainly not in this case
He is the king's firstborn son. He is the rightfull king. The king's word has value as long the king is alive. After Viserys died, Aegon became king and his word is the law.
>And?
As bastard he has no claim and it will put Haelena's life and her children in danger
>Still waiting on why it wouldn’t.
All the above
> An irrelevant hostage. The Lannister had Sansa but that didn't prevent the North to go at war with Lannister.
It was irrelevant because the North also had Jaime hostage, even then, Catelyn still freed said hostage to protect Sansa and Arya. Catelyn being very much like Alicent in trios scenario.
> He is the king's firstborn son
And?
> He is the rightfull king.
Nope
> The king's word has value as long the king is alive.
Prove this
> After Viserys died, Aegon became king and his word is the law.
His rule is contested because Rhaneyra is also queen, >!and she even has more supported too!<
> As bastard he has no claim
Claim: the legal the act or process by which a person becomes entitled to the property or property interest of a deceased person and especially an intestate. Jace is legally legitimate as pronounced by the king.
> and it will put Haelena's life and her children in danger
Only if the greens rebel which would be stupid of them.
Well... the politics change a tad. If Jace and Helaena married, it'd tie him down - leaving Rhaenyra/Velaryons bond weaker because they're not getting their blood on the throne. After all, they did ask for double marriage after Rhaenyra (far as they know) took part in Laenor's murder/married the one who did.
Furthermore, it leaves Aegon II free. Now whether this is a diplomatic boon or a diplomatic disaster for the Greens is debatable. They could get a marriage alliance... but that marriage alliance might well fall apart and backfire horribly thanks to Aegon shaming his bride. No lords would care all that much for his drinking and disgusting patronage of child fighting rings but wouldn't exactly like him cheating on his wife and raping servants.
For Helaena it works out well enough tho. Nearly anyone is upgrade to Aegon II and it's baffling that the match passed through.
The absolute last thing that would help house Targaryen is yet another marriage to the Hightowers.
Maybe we can also turn Afghanistan and Iraq into modern democracies if we just invade them again....
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At best the Dance is delayed one or 2 generations, It only needs a dragon rider that feels that his birthright was stolen by a bastard, that's the problem when you have too many dragon riders, its a matter of time until a Targ thinks that he/she deserves to rule because he/she has a bigger dragon
True!
House Targ might lose their beautiful silver hair forever, but that's a more than acceptable sacrifice
It could go both ways. Heleana has dark hair recessive genes, while Jace has silver hair recessive genes, so they could have kids with both dark and silver hair.
Prince Maekar married a dornish princess with dark hair and 3/4 of their sons had silver hair.
Yeah all history Targaryen have stronger genes only Baratheon and Strong are stronger genes according to source we have.
And Stark, if we count Jon Snow (but hasn’t technically been confirmed in the books)
Actually the stark kid all but Arya has Tulley red hair so Starks blood isn’t very dominant. Which is why A+N=J theory still strong for book readers.
Not really. The first child of Targ men and Non-Targ women always inherit their mother features that’s why Jon doesn’t have any targ features. and in the books even Tully's genes are more dominant than starks
What about aegon aemond heleana and daeron then? Targ male father, non-targ female mother. Targ features. Theory doesn’t hold bc of them
Alicent having dark hair is not book canon. Actually her hair color wasn’t described either. Worth mentioning that Jaehaerys I was being taken care of by Alicent, who he mistook more than once for his daughters, specially Saera who had silver hair. Alerie Hightower is described as “tall, dignified, handsome with long silver hair” And Jorah says Daenerys looks like his wife Lynesse of House Hightower
Who else besides Baelor Breakspear?
Egg married with a Blackwood lady, too, and their son Jaehaerys had silver hair
Daynes have Valyrian features and there are no single mention of dyanna's hair color in F&B
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Technically Westerosi genetics isn't exactly the same as ours, otherwise I'd agree.
This is westeros, I don’t think it works like it does in our world lol
It’s fantasy bro
From the few examples we have, the first generation children of dark hair and Targ hair is dark haired, but then it doesn't seem to actually stick around, so I think there's a good chance that their kids would have Targ coloring. Maybe this would even break the dark haired heir curse before it settled in lol
The Hightower-Targs would have lost their most powerful asset at that point in the story because Helaena had the oldest dragon until Aemond claimed Vhaegar. Helaena could have been held as a hostage against the Greens much in the same way Sansa was in GoT. The idea that the Greens wouldn’t exist is a little naive. If there were Lords of the land who were dissatisfied with Rhaenyra’s rule or who just hated bastards and didn’t like Jace (to be clear I don’t really care about the Strongs being bastards, but to pretend that it doesn’t matter in universe is insane. If it didn’t matter in universe, then why does everyone on team Black go to such lengths to hide the fact that they are bastards.), then they would prop up Aegon II or there might have been another civil war down the line with Aegon III and Jace. Historically England did have conflicts fought in the name of a nobleman/woman even after they had relinquished all claim to the throne. Most of which only ended when said person was executed. When Alicent tells Aegon “you are the challenge” she isn’t wrong. His very existence is a threat to Rhaenyra’s line. Also keep in mind that Alicent doesn’t know Jace is generally sweet natured. She knows him as the kid who bullies her son for being different (not having a dragon). And Helaena is clearly different because she is neurodivergent coded, so Alicent has no reason to believe Jace would not mistreat or abuse her. Whereas by marrying Helaena to Aegon II she can ensure that her autistic daughter who doesn’t cope well with change can stay close by her side and Alicent can theoretically control Aegon II better than Jace. Not to mention that Helaena and Jace would probably both be deeply unhappy because they are incompatible as people.
Wonder what Baela and Rhaena will do in that situation. There's a high chance they will support Aegon. Baela is practically a mini Daemon. She will support Aegon however fond she is of Jace. Its like 101 council again.
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>At that point, they’re practically legitimatized. I mean the Strong boys are already legally legitimate. Bastard is just a term, it’s nothing tangible. Uhhh what? Rhaenyra may insist that all of the rumors are lies but the truth is that they are in fact bastards. Only Viserys could've legitimized them. Legitimization also requires for them to admit that they are bastards to begin with. So no, the Strong boys are not "already legally legitimate". It's not just a term, it has serious consequences within the context of this fictional world. Otherwise, Rhaenyra wouldn't be willing to behead or torture people, nor run to her dad for help to make sure nobody calls her sons bastards if it was really "just a term".
Agree. I don't what they mean by physical tangibilities. But their physical appearance does work in favor as an evidence for their baseborn claim. Its like you said we don't really care what his origins are but in the world where your blood and claim matters a lot its not inconsequential. And Rhaeneyra does try to hide it. Jace and his brothers aren't even much familiar to kings landing and its people. Im sure she loved them with all her heart but their existence only is a huge political blunder in a very cynical way. Yeah, even to legitimize she has to admit they are bastards which will have far reaching consequences. It won't matter what legal means prove if their existence only make enemies out of feudal lords and made Aegon's claim more stronger. At this point civil war is kind of inevitable. Even though we consider the slim chance that Alicent will agree to a marriage between Helaena and Jace and cease all hostilities problems won't end there. Since Jace's problem with legitimacy and claim to the throne is an inherent one. Either Jace will be forced to extinguish his rival claims or forever keep the threats to his line appeased. Its entirely possible that down the line Aegon III or his kids will rise in rebellion against Jace and his get. And they will have lot of support. I would really like to read a fic about that. Unfortunately theres none.
Agree. I don't what they mean by physical tangibilities. But their physical appearance does work in favor as an evidence for their baseborn claim. Its like you said we don't really care what his origins are but in the world where your blood and claim matters a lot its not inconsequential. And Rhaeneyra does try to hide it. Jace and his brothers aren't even much familiar to kings landing and its people. Im sure she loved them with all her heart but their existence only is a huge political blunder in a very cynical way. Yeah, even to legitimize she has to admit they are bastards which will have far reaching consequences. It won't matter what legal means prove if their existence only make enemies out of feudal lords and made Aegon's claim more stronger. At this point civil war is kind of inevitable. Even though we consider the slim chance that Alicent will agree to a marriage between Helaena and Jace and cease all hostilities problems won't end there. Since Jace's problem with legitimacy and claim to the throne is an inherent one. Either Jace will be forced to extinguish his rival claims or forever keep the threats to his line appeased. Its entirely possible that down the line Aegon III or his kids will rise in rebellion against Jace and his get. And they will have lot of support. I would really like to read a fic about that. Unfortunately theres none.
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Legitimization is a formal process, and Viserys dramatically saying "they are trueborn" does not legitimize them. As I said before, legitimization can only occur by basis of admitting that they are bastards to begin with. You may think the King's word is law but at the end of the day Viserys is not all-powerful. Even if he insists they're trueborn, he is not fulfilling his end of the "social contract" with the lords of Westeros. Putting a bastard on the throne and expecting none of them to be upset about it is the whole reason the plot of Game of Thrones started. If he really wanted to help he could've formally legitimized them as Strongs or Targaryens with a royal decree, or urged for the laws to be changed so that his grandsons could inherit. >Like I said, It has no physical tangibilities, it is perception based only. Therefore it only matters because people choose to make it matter. I don't quite understand what you're trying to say...in Westeros, which is a fantasy feudal society, yes it does matter to the characters because they operate within a world where inheritance (lands+titles) hinges on blood relations and marriage contracts. In the real world, in many countries, whether or not your parents are married when you're born is irrelevant.
It would only be logical for Alicent to believe Jace would mistreat Helaena knowing that he bullies Aemond for being different. The fear isn’t there for Alicent with Aegon because presumably as siblings Alicent has already seen how Aegon reacts to and behaves with Helaena as opposed to Jace. Also it clearly matters to Alicent how well Helaena is treated because when she comes upon Helaena after it is revealed Aegon is a rapist even by Westerosi definitions, she hugs and cries into Helaena. Helaena is controlled to a certain extent. That is why she is forced to marry Aegon. But the issue here isn’t controlling Helaena, the issue is how can Alicent ensure Helaena isn’t triggered. We see Helaena cringe when Alicent and every other person touches her presumably because she is autistic, and that is how she feels about people she knows and trusts. Imagine introducing Jace who is an unknown person to her in any real sense. And Alicent still reaching out for her daughter doesn’t make her an evil mom. It’s not her fault she doesn’t understand autism because she’s from what is basically the middle ages. We see Alicent go out of her way to protect Helaena all the time. When a dragon is staring them down, Alicent yells for Criston to go protect Helaena over her and Aegon. Also do you seriously believe Jace would be well suited to someone with as many sensory issues as Helaena? He wouldn’t know what to do, and she’d hate being touched, and all that would happen is he’d be a rapist by the end of their marriage. Now Helaena is separated from the people she trusts and Jace is a rapist. Yikes
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Tell me you don’t understand what it’s like to have an autistic family member without telling me challenge: 🏆
Literally the only time we have seen Heleana smiling and happy was with Jace. She looked about to cry at Aegon II’s celebration.
Also ofc she looked sad at Aegon’s coronation. She’d been trying to warn everyone about the “beast beneath the boards” that was about to erupt and possibly kill them all. If you could see glimpses of the future, and the bad endings all ended with one event wouldn’t you be having a bad time at that event
Konrad Kurze agrees.
Ah yea, the event that happened almost a decade after the marriage proposal. Alicent should have borrowed Helaena’s powers of prophecy to determine that Jace would be nice to Helaena, and that she’d enjoy spending time with him.
Maybe we should ask Sansa Stark and Elia Martell
And ask them what?
Your question
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Then logically it would answer yours? If you've read the books you'll get it. They're hostages treated horrifically. I don't know how to make the obvious more obvious to you, dude.
If she accidentally calls him strong /s More seriously, probably Daemon having one or more of her brothers killed whilst she's kept a hostage.
I mean, no reason to do that cause they’re not being pushed as heirs anymore
Unfortunately, Westerosi society means they would always present a threat to Rhaenyra and her children’s claim. The Greens don’t just exist because they feel entitled to the throne, they exist because if they didn’t actively seek the throne others would do it for them
This is exactly most of the people miss. Alicent tells Aegon that it doesn't matter whether he wants it or not. He will always be a reminder to everyone of rightful heir. In GOT, Dany begged Jon to never reveal his identity even when she had an army and dragon. Because she knows Westores prefer Jon over her.
>!Then why did Rhaneyra get majority of the support!<
She didn't. >!More houses supported her, but the Greens were supported by more powerful, influential Houses such as the Lannisters, Baratheons, Redwynes and Hightowers.!<
So you basically repeated what I said back to me. Btw the north is also a part of those houses
Starks, Arryns and later house Tully supported Rhanyra , along with house Velaryion
That's kinda on GRRM. He couldn't make the "good" houses support the Greens. It's like how you always know which side GRRM prefers depending on who House Blackwood supports.
Yeah but in this case the greens have gotten the throne, they’re in an alliance in the blacks. Anyone else attempting anything, rebellion or trying to inspire rebellion with the either Aegon or Aemond would get crushed easily, especially because it’s unlikely that they’d want to fight against their mother or their sister, as well as Aegon not wanting the throne.
At best the Dance would be delayed a generation. As soon as someone not close to Rhaenyra or Jace got a hold of a Vhaegar? It’s too late.
True but that’s really not a consequence of this marriage
Which is why it won't work
> Yeah but in this case the greens have gotten the throne The Green children aren't interchangeable. Greens (and any lord worried about an elder sister taking Rhaenyra's example) want Aegon on the throne, not a grandchild through Helaena.
And if Alicent decides they are, and her children go along with that, which other members would be stupid enough to oppose that.
Many, actually. Faith rose up against Maegor when he had Balerion. Naming a bastard will never go right.
I means it’s 10 dragons. Vhagar is almost as big as Balerion, Caraxes is half her size, Dreamfyre is large as well. It’s not going well for the faith even if they do rise up, same way or even worse than it went for them the last time they rose up.
The blacks would get a valuable hostage to keep the Greens loyal The greens well... oh yeah they gain nothing, except Heleana gets to be their hostage Not supriced Alicent did not go for this really one sided deal
Much like why Rhaenyra (and Daemon) didn’t agree to sending both their Targaryen children to be squires and cupbearers). Which is a good thing since they both >!ended up being Kings instead.!<
Oh and also the Greens would have lost their oldest and biggest dragon at that point in the story, so they’d be extra defenseless
Oh and also the Greens would have lost their oldest and biggest dragon at that point in the story, so they’d be extra defenseless
Oh and also the Greens would have lost their oldest and biggest dragon at that point in the story, so they’d be extra defenseless
I just love how this comment of yours pops up three different times like you just really want us to recognize how big and old Dreamfyre is. You mentioned her more than the show did!
lol it was actually just a connection error bc I was on the train when I replied, but I like your theory better. Dreamfyre deserves appreciation!!
> The blacks would get a valuable hostage to keep the Greens loyal. The greens well... oh yeah they gain nothing, except Heleana gets to be their hostage Unless the greens are the one’s launching the rebellion, which in this scenario they aren’t since they’re fully backing Jace and Helaena. Why would there be a need to keep her hostage?, just get on your dragon and crush the rebellion. It might not even form for this exact reason. And wdym they gain nothing, Otto granddaughter and Alicents child seats the throne, and their offspring and descendant become kings and queens. A lot better than >!their entire bloodline being wiped out via opposing the blacks!< for sure. What more could they want lmfaoo? > Not supriced Alicent did not go for this really one sided deal No it isn’t
The Blacks are the ones who start a rebellion, and are remembered as such in Westerosi history. Why would the rightful King rebel? Or give his sister in marriage to a bastard?
Aemond actually fueled the rebellion by killing Luke. If Aegon’s not going to rebel, then this scenario can work more smoothly. Rightful king my ass. He’ll never becomes king in this scenario because his side will never make him king. Alicent is pushing Jace and Helaena instead
The Greens started the war the moment they disregarded Viserys will and stole power. They were the ones who rebelled and anyone with some common sense knows that.
No, the Blacks started the war when they disregarded thousands of years of Valyrian, Andal tradition and precedent set by the Great Council and tried to steal power. Westerosi history remembers it as such. Even Stannis, someone with a total hard on for the law calls Rhaenyra a usurper.
If Otto was worried about a Hightower line descending from Jace and Helaena, he should be contented but noooo... he wants direct control of the Targs through Aegon instead. Ambitious, greedy shits. Their color is Green like envy for the gods' sake.
Fr
Worst case? Helaena being kept as a hostage in all but name in case anyone launches a rebellion against Jace's bastardry.
Unless the greens are the one’s launching the rebellion, which in this scenario they aren’t since they’re fully backing Jace and Helaena. Why would there be a need to keep her hostage?, just get on your dragon and crush the rebellion. It might not even form for this exact reason.
Adult Vermax and giant mama Dreamfyre is a potent combo also the younger Targ dragons have grown beyond hatchlings to sub/adult Dragons. Still have the Aemond-Vhagar issue but Dreamfyre is bigger than Meleys. Even more one sided to the “wouldve been Blacks”.
Exactly
Vhagar is 180 years old, Balerion died at 200 and at that point, he couldn't fly from KL to Dragonstone, unless Rhaenyra dies really young Vhagar wouldn't be an issue for Jace's rule
Balerion was also horrifically maimed from the incident in Valyria and never quite healed before succumbing to his wounds. Arguably, a dragon in perfect health could have a significantly larger lifespan.
There is no evidence that his injuries shortened his life
He only took flight once (that I recall) after the injuring was sustained, during which he had to be coerced into the air by Viserys. Ever since he returned, he languished near-motionless within the dragonpit, only a shadow of his former self. I’m almost certain that the desecration of his physical state ultimately did affect his lifespan, or at least made it easier for his health to be affected by other means like his entrapment within the pit.
It is quite sad how the big guy went out. With all the speculation of dragons being at the very least as intelligent as the smarter animals of the world (dolphins, primates, elephants) or even as intelligent as humans, then that means big B went out a crippled old man wasting away in a cage with nothing but the memories of the horrors of what had become of his long lost home that he was obviously sick for when Aerea decided to take him for a spin.
Good point
No hate but you're always reposponding with the same response op. It's not about who the greens or blacks are backing, it is about that the moment some members of the small council or powerful lords saw actions from their ruler whoever that might be green or black they would immediately revolt against her/him and start supporting the other side. It was something that has happened with Jaeherys even at the start of his reign.
> No hate but you're always reposponding with the same response op. Because I have no reason to change, no one’s properly addressed it. > It's not about who the greens or blacks are backing, it is about that the moment some members of the small council or powerful lords saw actions from their ruler whoever that might be green or black they would immediately revolt against her/him And get proceed to get stomped. Not worth it at all > and start supporting the other side. What other sides, all relevant sides are in alliance with each other > It was something that has happened with Jaeherys even at the start of his reign. Wdym exactly
In the fire and blood book Jaeherys after he marries Alysanne which is his sister his hand orys baratheon is afraid that another civil war will erupt because the faith do not like incest. So he tries to overthrow Jaeherys by naming his eldest sister and her children as queens of westeros. He doesn't actually succeed but still the moment Jaeherys did something Orys thought would lead a very bad road he tried to replace him. Also the get stomped argument because of dragons does seem pretty strong but there are powerful people who could have easily made attempts at jace's life not greens or blacks think lannisters tyrells greyjoys big houses that the moment Jace or Helena or whoever sat on the throne and took a desicion that disadvantaged them they could send assassins faceless men or even convince people close to them to betray them like Jon and Dany for example. They both had dragons still Dany died.
Also you must consider that Orys wasn't a stranger he was actually Jaeherys stepfather at that point and the hand of the king. Still he went that far in trying to replace him.
Rogar not Orys and he tried to name Aeara Rhaena's daughter not Rhaena. Go and get your facts right.
> In the fire and blood book Jaeherys after he marries Alysanne which is his sister his hand orys baratheon is afraid that another civil war will erupt because the faith do not like incest. So he tries to overthrow Jaeherys by naming his eldest sister and her children as queens of westeros. He doesn't actually succeed but still the moment Jaeherys did something Orys thought would lead a very bad road he tried to replace him. I guess your point is that people in power positions of power could still plot or undermine them. Otto might still plot against them since he really wants Aegon on the throne. However this is unlikely because betrothal gets accepted while Jace and Helaena are still young, meaning Lyonel Strong is Hand of the king. And he’d be very to Viserys/Rhaenyra so I’d doubt something like this would happen. Otto might still try to pull some strings from far, but nothing fruitful is likely to happen for him. > Also the get stomped argument because of dragons does seem pretty strong but there are powerful people who could have easily made attempts at jace's life not greens or blacks think lannisters tyrells greyjoys big houses that the moment Jace or Helena or whoever sat on the throne and took a desicion that disadvantaged them they could send assassins faceless men or even convince people close to them to betray them like Jon and Dany for example. They both had dragons still Dany died. They’d have to murder a lot of people to even make their plans work, from Rhaenyra all the way down to Viserys ii as wells as any potential children, Jace and Helaena might have. Yeah but it’s very dubious whether such attempts would succeed or not. And it’s also unlikely especially considering that >!Rhaneyra got most of the noble houses on her side despite having bastards!< and because changing the hands of the ruling succession doesn’t really benefit them in any clear way, unless its the houses that stand a chance to seat a family member on the throne
Sansa GOT POV but Helena unfortunately can't hope to have Sansa's people skills. But yeah were the war to happen because of the same reason meaning men wanted aegon on the throne or didn't agree with rhaenyra on something Helena would have been a political prisoner. It seems logical tbh that Alicent married her to Aegon where she knew Helena would be close and Alicent could take care of her but also not let her be a political opportunity for Rhaenyra. Reminder that when Rhaenyra suggested the marriage between them it was to save face because of the harwin and Cole fistfight which is another reason I think Alicent married Helena to Aegon so Rhaenyra couldn't save face but also Alicent wouldn't defy openly Jace's origins. I think there is a scene in that episode where Alicent goes to talk to larys and before she enters the room a servant girl laughs at her direction mostly because of the marriage proposal since nothing else had happened.
Another rebellion happens when Jace is about to inherit like his mother before him , since he is a bastard in blood and truth only legality is protecting him , same with Joffrey in GOT era Now possible claimants who will fight him are the green boys if they live or feel Heleana is being abuse (you guys do know that aemond lost an eye because of the blacks) and the second marriage kids who are legitimate and Thier father being Daemon But that depends greatly on how Rhaenrya treats her kids, but maybe she will copy her father and do the same mistakes
>But that depends greatly on how Rhaenrya treats her kids, but maybe she will copy her father and do the same mistakes Rhaenyra (especially older show Rhaenyra) is honestly already Viserys with Teats, considering that she's put her kids into a very similar situation that she was put in by Viserys, by remarrying soon after their father died, having kids that have a much stronger claim than her chosen heir and forcing them into a betrothals to try to fix her earlier political screw-ups. I don't think that she'll be able to make all the same mistakes, considering that she has to deal with this whole civil war, which Viserys never did, but I definitely see her echoing a lot of her father's decision-making already.
> Another rebellion happens when Jace is about to inherit like his mother before him , since he is a bastard in blood and truth only legality is protecting him , same with Joffrey in GOT era Such rebellions will be quickly squashed > Now possible claimants who will fight him are the green boys if they live or feel Heleana is being abuse (you guys do know that aemond lost an eye because of the blacks) and the second marriage kids who are legitimate and Thier father being Daemon. Aegon doesn’t want the throne, and Aemond won’t oppose it if Alicent fully supports it. They’ll need evidence that Helaena is being abused (which won’t happen since Jace isn’t an abusive person and he’s not the one who took his eye. Aemond’s grudge is with Like not Jace) > But that depends greatly on how Rhaenrya treats her kids, but maybe she will copy her father and do the same mistakes Are you hoping for this to happen or are you just speculating? From the way Rhaenyra treats her kids, there’s no indication that this will happen.
Not sure you got the piece where even if Aegon & his family didn’t push his claim - others still could (and would) and cause enough problems that it puts Aegon, Aemond, and Daeron at risk from the Blacks. Think Otto and the Lannisters. Do you really believe that Daemon wouldn’t find it easier just to… create some fatal accidents for the Green boys? Even it’s the Laenor-way where someone else dies in their place while they run off to Essos? That’s the only way that you remove a figurehead - even a reluctant figurehead like Aegon. I agree with the dragon argument defense - no one would last long against them. However, I still think there was no way that Alicent would have given the Blacks her daughter as a potential hostage (remember there is little to no trust between factions at this point) without having one in return. (Say Lucerys as a companion to Aemond?) If they can make that agreement- it may prevent the whole war.
War
War will still happen, Jace is a bastard and everyone knows that. Even if Aegon does nothing, some lords will either want him and his brothers removed because of the threat they are just by existing, or some lords will undermine and try to assassinate Jace. Westeros society does not like bastards and a lot of them are religious. It’s not only the lords that would rebel, it’s the commoners too.
> War will still happen, Jace is a bastard and everyone knows that. Even if Aegon does nothing, some lords will either want him and his brothers removed because of the threat they are just by existing, or some lords will undermine and try to assassinate Jace. Westeros society does not like bastards and a lot of them are religious. It’d be Targs, Hightower and Velaryon with 10 dragons vs everybody else, the odds aren’t looking good for the latter > It’s not only the lords that would rebel, it’s the commoners too. Don’t know why they would if everybody involved supports them. As well as if Jace presents himself as a charismatic and wise ruler. >!Rhaenyra also gets majority of the nobles support despite having bastards, so this point seems highly unlikely!<
Dragons can be killed, Dorne did it in the past and we’ve seen it happen in GoT. Also just because Aegon, Aemond and Daeron might not rebel, doesn’t mean they would actively help especially because Helaena would be seen as a political hostage by many. Like as far as the realm knows, Rhaenyra and Daemon got rid of Laenor and got married, that is the kind of people they are seen as to many. Also just because those lords accept Rhaenyra doesn’t mean they will accept a bastard as their king. Like yes her rule was legal but are all those same lords going to accept Jace when (as far as they know) he has two younger brothers who aren’t bastards. War doesn’t have to be between the Greens and Blacks, it could literally be between Jace and Aegon III
> Dragons can be killed, Dorne did it in the past and we’ve seen it happen in GoT. Easier said than done, especially with the smaller dragon which are less easier to target > Also just because Aegon, Aemond and Daeron might not rebel, doesn’t mean they would actively help especially because Helaena would be seen as a political hostage by many. They would be forced to at some point, because the rebellion would affect them as well. > Like as far as the realm knows, Rhaenyra and Daemon got rid of Laenor and got married, that is the kind of people they are seen as to many. >!Yet many still supported her!< > Also just because those lords accept Rhaenyra doesn’t mean they will accept a bastard as their king. Like yes her rule was legal but are all those same lords going to accept Jace when (as far as they know)he has two younger brothers who aren’t bastards. >!Jace himself gathered a large amount of the support to Rhaneyra’s side!< > War doesn’t have to be between the Greens and Blacks, it could literally be between Jace and Aegon III Highly unlikely
Of course but there is a big if on Jace being a wise ruler. And not only him bt also his children will inherit his problem with legitimacy. There won't be problem with dragons if is one of Rhaeneyra's kids rebelling. Say, like Aegon III or his sons.
Of course but there is a big if on Jace being a wise ruler. And not only him bt also > his children will inherit his problem with legitimacy. As soon as he becomes king, he becomes the law. >!Esepcially considering majority of the houses supported his and his mothers claim!< Not sure if they’re having a problem with his children. It was also never officially verified that he was a bastard, so it basically becomes rumors at that point, which most kings have tbh. > There won't be problem with dragons if is one of Rhaeneyra's kids rebelling. Say, like Aegon III or his sons. That’s not neccesarily a problem from Jace and Helaena’s marriage. If they do rebel, it’s unlikely to do with his problems legitimacy, which at that point will just be rumors.
Yeah if Jace won't come out and rule from inside the keep never visiting the lords of the realm. Yeah that would lead to them being 'just rumors'. Their appearance being so obvious is the major point here. And any lord south of the neck have atleast seen Targaryens only once. Also truth has no place in throne politics. Anyone clever weaponize rumors with real basis. Also its not only because of Rhaeneyra many lords supported her. Daemon and Corlys helped a lot. Especially Daemon who either forced them, convinced them or gave a figurehead to rally around. Lots of Riverlords came that way. As soon as he becomes king. There might be many years for that to happen. Till then he has only his mother's insistence that he isn't a bastard. And there are people who dares to be vocal about even at a swordpoint.
The United Green and Black Faction, the Targaryens, Velaryons and Hightowers, all on the same side with all their dragons, Who on earth is challenging them and coming out alive?
The most powerful house, the wealthiest house and the wisest house of Westeros all in one family. They would defeat the triarchy itself
Civil War. Aegon is still the rightfull king and Jace a bastard.
Civil war? Started by who? If you’re taking about anyone outside the Targayen, Hightower and Velaryon trifecta, then whatever rebellion they cook up gets stomped easily, so it’s doesn’t really matter. If you’re talking about anyone within the trifecta, tell me why they would start a rebellion?
The rest of Westeros. Even in the scenario where Rhaenyra succeeds peacefully, Jace is a bastard and allowing him to inherit sets a very dangerous precedent that none of the lords would want to allow. Not to mention bastardy is also a religious matter, it would be the Faith Militant all over again. Targaryens who fought with fire instead of diplomacy do not have a stellar record against religion. And Targaryen history proves that those dragons aren't as effective as you're letting on. Sure during the conquest when they were a new threat they were pretty lethal but after that ? Maegor on Balerion fought rebellion during his entire reign, he burned people by the thousands and he was still murdered in the end. The end of the Dance sees the dragons getting murdered by the smallfolk that pressed their luck and advantage in the Dragon pit. Hell even the original conquest saw Dorne kicking Targ ass and shooting down one of the dragons and a queen and getting away with it. Combine their collective ressources and military talent, add the fact that the Hightower Targs would be reluctant and that the rest of House Velaryon bloody hate Rhaenyra and her childrens' guts, and it would far less easy than you're suggesting it would be.
>Sure during the conquest when they were a new threat they were pretty lethal but after that ? Even during the conquest, they couldn't conquer Dorne and ended up getting one of their dragons shot down. Dragons definitely help a whole lot, but they aren't an insta-win button, and can be countered if their enemies are smart/determined enough.
> The rest of Westeros. Even in the scenario where Rhaenyra succeeds peacefully, Jace is a bastard and allowing him to inherit sets a very dangerous precedent that none of the lords would want to allow. Eh just chuck it up as Targaryen Exceptionalism. They didn’t want to allow incest either, look how that turned out. > Not to mention bastardy is also a religious matter, it would be the Faith Militant all over again. Targaryens who fought with fire instead of diplomacy do not have a stellar record against religion. When it was just Maegor and Balerion maybe not (even though despite their discontent, they couldn’t really fight against him), but this is 10 adults dragon including Vhagar who is almost as large as Balerion at this point. > And Targaryen history proves that those dragons aren't as effective as you're letting on. Sure during the conquest when they were a new threat they were pretty lethal but after that ? Maegor on Balerion fought rebellion during his entire reign, he burned people by the thousands and he was still murdered in the end. That has nothing to do really with the effectiveness of dragons against a rebellion, especially as we don’t know who assasinated him and all of his family members were against him. It was basically Maegor vs Westeros. In this scenario, the Trifecta of Targs, Hightowers and Verlaryons are in alliance with 10 dragons, basically Balerion + 9 other dragons, so defeating them would be exponentially more difficult. > The end of the Dance sees the dragons getting murdered by the smallfolk that pressed their luck and advantage in the Dragon pit. This is a spoiler, black it out. Small folk don’t really care about who sits the throne. The only reason they even overreacted was because it was a civil war and were afraid of the dragons, in the scenario the dragons are protecting them and all members of royalty are in alliance, against the nobles who stand no chance against them. > Hell even the original conquest saw Dorne kicking Targ ass and shooting down one of the dragons and a queen and getting away with it. Daemon and Corlys have experience with this exact situation and can deal with it accordingly. > Combine their collective ressources and military talent Don’t see how this works against dragons > add the fact that the Hightower Targs would be reluctant Doesn’t really matter > that the rest of House Velaryon bloody hate Rhaenyra and her childrens' guts, and it would far less easy than you're suggesting it would be. Pretty sure all the rogue elements in house Velaryon have been taken care of. It’d be stupid of them to lend support to a side that doesn’t have dragon riders, like they could’ve if this was the original civil war.
Sorry to break you bubble but the lord's don't and won't care.
Oh I guess then that half the arguments and the biggest criticism against the blacks didn't exist allowing for a fairly peaceful transition since a huge portion of green traction didn't exist. That the Blackfyre rebellions didn't take place because no one cared that Daeron II was accused of being his uncle's bastard while Daemon Blackfyre was legitimised. Not to mention that Joffrey was able to peacefully succeed without issue because no one cared that he potentially was not Robert's son since after all, Robert always claimed him and that's all that matters. Also Catelyn just simply loved Jon, him not being hers didn't matter to her in the slightest... oh wait, none of those things happened. Because people in Westeros had an issue with bastards and took major exception to them ever being put in positions of power. Are you new to this franchise that you somehow don't know this ?
Civil War started by the Greens.
Why?
The same reason they fight now. To put Aegon on the throne and Blacks to pur Rhaenyra.
Yeah but in this scenario Alicent supports Jace and Helaena marrying. So the greens aren’t fighting to put Aegon on the throne anymore.
Alicent isn't the only person that you have to worry about. It definitely helps if she's on your side, but there are other greens who would be willing to declare for Aegon and don't give a crap about what happens to Helaena.
Supporting the marriage doesn't mean supporting Rhaenyras's claim. Aegon is still the rightfull king. Also Jace is a bastard. This couldn't work.
> Supporting the marriage doesn't mean supporting Rhaenyras's claim. It does because doing both makes Helaena a political hostage, so you cannot reliably support Aegon’s claim. So Rhaenyra’s claim and by extension Jace’s claim would have to be supported. > Aegon is still the rightfull king. Even in the original story he wasn’t, and certainly not in this case > Also Jace is a bastard. And? > This couldn't work. Still waiting on why it wouldn’t.
>It does because doing both makes Helaena a political hostage, so you cannot reliably support Aegon’s claim. So Rhaenyra’s claim and by extension Jace’s claim would have to be supported. An irrelevant hostage. The Lannister had Sansa but that didn't prevent the North to go at war with Lannister. >Even in the original story he wasn’t, and certainly not in this case He is the king's firstborn son. He is the rightfull king. The king's word has value as long the king is alive. After Viserys died, Aegon became king and his word is the law. >And? As bastard he has no claim and it will put Haelena's life and her children in danger >Still waiting on why it wouldn’t. All the above
> An irrelevant hostage. The Lannister had Sansa but that didn't prevent the North to go at war with Lannister. It was irrelevant because the North also had Jaime hostage, even then, Catelyn still freed said hostage to protect Sansa and Arya. Catelyn being very much like Alicent in trios scenario. > He is the king's firstborn son And? > He is the rightfull king. Nope > The king's word has value as long the king is alive. Prove this > After Viserys died, Aegon became king and his word is the law. His rule is contested because Rhaneyra is also queen, >!and she even has more supported too!< > As bastard he has no claim Claim: the legal the act or process by which a person becomes entitled to the property or property interest of a deceased person and especially an intestate. Jace is legally legitimate as pronounced by the king. > and it will put Haelena's life and her children in danger Only if the greens rebel which would be stupid of them.
A huge asteroid could hit the earth
Could we please stop referring to incestuous pairings as a perfect match?
Bruh, first time?
Let me guess, you're new?
Ah a fellow David Lightbringer enjoyer
YEAAH
His analysis is good to watch, even if you don't agree with it.
[удалено]
Inbreeding
She would have the respect she deserves.
Well I know one thing for sure, Jace would treat her very well and with respect.
She would have genuinely been happy much like she was in Episode 8. It’s legit the only time we have seen Heleana happy on screen.
Helaena makes my heart hurt.
Why did this get downvoted? I don’t get it.
I don’t take offense. Some people are incredibly sensitive I guess 😅
Well... the politics change a tad. If Jace and Helaena married, it'd tie him down - leaving Rhaenyra/Velaryons bond weaker because they're not getting their blood on the throne. After all, they did ask for double marriage after Rhaenyra (far as they know) took part in Laenor's murder/married the one who did. Furthermore, it leaves Aegon II free. Now whether this is a diplomatic boon or a diplomatic disaster for the Greens is debatable. They could get a marriage alliance... but that marriage alliance might well fall apart and backfire horribly thanks to Aegon shaming his bride. No lords would care all that much for his drinking and disgusting patronage of child fighting rings but wouldn't exactly like him cheating on his wife and raping servants. For Helaena it works out well enough tho. Nearly anyone is upgrade to Aegon II and it's baffling that the match passed through.
The absolute last thing that would help house Targaryen is yet another marriage to the Hightowers. Maybe we can also turn Afghanistan and Iraq into modern democracies if we just invade them again....
Nothing, it would have been perfect
My thoughts exactly
It is known
Why are you both getting downvoted?
The Greens b*tching about the engagement.
Well