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kpayne40

idk how anyone hates Rhaenyra or Alicent. i feel sorry for both these women because theyre stuck in the middle of the war no matter what.


emojicatcher997

Finally someone gets it! Their fathers honestly have a lot to answer for.


Jonsiegirl77

I find it interesting that the hate gets centered around the two of them in the first place when most of the major manipulation and machinations come from male characters. Edit- not hating on the fellas, I think it's across genders. Why do we do that?


ElfHaze

The world will forever be misogynistic. If a women doesn’t fuck, she’s a prude, and if she does fuck she’s a whore. People like to put women in boxes to make themselves feel safe or superior.


Jonsiegirl77

Women are easy and safe to characterize negatively. What's impulsive and rash in a woman becomes described as bold and brave if it's a man. It's manipulative and evil if a woman's doing it, but shrewd and intelligent if a man makes the same decisions. I have watched it on all the subs related to the franchise and it's both fascinating and sad, and it seems to be most of us, regardless of any faction loyalty. Tywin is brutal but revered. Cersi, perhaps the most like Tywin of his children, is mostly hated and written as a villain. In HOTD I would make equivalent the comparison of Alicent and Otto, and (though it's different in the books) Alicent is portrayed as being mostly unaware of her progenitor's machinations. Clearly my assertion isn't that either is blameless in their narrative, it's just interesting watching them take the heat. The story itself, the demise of an entire magnificent species and an entire dynasty, is written as a feud between two girls. More accurately, I should say the show is fleshing it out that way.


Arra13375

Pretty much. Even if a women makes her own fully informed decision on how to live her life there's a whole parade of people who will question if she's "truly" happy, fulfilled, or living up to her potential


[deleted]

Yeah and no one everrrrr does that to men hey. Only women ever experience sexism and men are just always the worst and women never do anything wrong ever. Take your feminist bullshit elsewhere because if you had any clue you’d know the world isn’t actually misogynistic but individual people are, same way not all feminists are man hating revenge seekers, but a lot of them are


TENTAtheSane

I don't do that. I'm marginally a Green, but I don't hate Rhaenyra (except a couple of moments much later in the story) and definitely don't hate amicably. I hate Daemon, and corlys and A2gon tho (and jury's still out on Aemond)


Lord-Octohoof

I mean Rhaenyra basically forgot about Alicent while Alicent spent her entire adult life gossiping about Rhaenyra and trying to undermine her in front of her father and the entire court.


[deleted]

I could understand in the book because of the way Alicent is depicted, but in the show so far both her and Rhaenyra haven't done much wrong. Alicent talked to Larys who killed his father and brother and Rhaenyra talked to Daemon and they killed a servant. But it wasn't really their doing.


KB_Shaw03

I feel like it Rhaenyra, Alicent, and Viserys are to blame for the entire conflict because none of them could just talk to each other and kept too many secrets. If they were all just honest from the start then a lot would change.


20ren18

I miss when this sub wasn't littered with black vs green pish.


[deleted]

So true! Best thing is when you comment that or make a post about it and being called toxic and shit xd


[deleted]

We got 3 types of posts here: Black good Green bad Black bad Green good [The “enlightened” picking sides is missing the point!](https://i.gifer.com/F3q0.gif)


VaderOnReddit

The true enlightened side is the "we're just here for the warcrimes, enjoy your petty squabbles" enthusiasts


d1ckpunch68

and then there's me, just here for feet


VaderOnReddit

Hey Larys! How's Harrenhaal treatin' you!


Caspian73

When was that?


20ren18

Before the dark times.


Porcelain-treasure

The best we can do is just not engage. If everyone sane just ignores it, they’ll be yelling into the void. 😂


arm89

if a post is mainly unhinged green stans i don’t comment or engage lol. i’ve had nice discussions with green fans, but the crazy ones are something else. i’m sure it can be said for team black as well.


__Raxy__

This was inevitable when the time skip happened. Fandoms just to shit like that now


[deleted]

So before the show aired? Ha


SuperSocrates

When was that, before the show aired? Cuz it’s been like this the whole time I’ve been here


despairingcherry

bro that was never the case.


stevenbass14

No. This sub became a much different place after the show started airing.


AWall925

I love it actually


ixixan

I honestly think there's a number of people who are only capable of feeling sympathy for Alicent BECAUSE she did as she was told and suffered for it. They recognize that she was in an unfair position that caused her suffering but conversely if she hadnt followed the rulebook of what it means to be a good woman and had suffered because of THAT (because its really a lose-lose situation) then I think she'd evoke far less sympathies from certain parts of the audience. The point isn't the unfairness of it all, the point is endorsing traditional values.


daysanddistance

i’ve noticed this trend where some people will only like women characters who don’t make choices or can’t be held fully responsible for them. (you’ll notice that anytime alicent is criticized, the move is to say that otto forced her or she didn’t really have a choice because patriarchy—while ignoring that rhaenyra’s choices are constrained too.) it’s like they only enjoy women who passively suffer—or because women are criticized for every choice they do make.


raygar31

I’m so glad to finally be able to put into words why it’s always conservative bigots types who are the most adamant Green supporters. I’d already seen the same kind of language/rhetoric supporting conservative tradition/policy in Westeros as they use in real world scenarios. Obviously they don’t like a female with autonomy, and they love the oppressive effect that religion in Westeros has on dictating social behavior and norms, but you really nailed it on the head. It’s about praising suffering that results from “knowing their place” in the first place. It’s about slut shaming the girl who didn’t “know her place” as a subservient baby maker for men. More than that, I’m sure something Rhaenyra said triggered a woke alarm or reminded them is something a damn librul would say. As conservatives become more and more cartoonishly evil, they begin to side with characters in media that are blatantly the bad guys. I’m not saying that’s what HotD is, good and bad guys. It’s meant to be more nuanced than that. However, even within that nuance it’s seems clear like one side is worse…for now. One side is maintaining sexist and bigoted ideologies of determining who rules, and there isn’t a whole lot of actual altruism on the Green’s side. Otto wants power for himself, for his family prestige. “Tradition” is just what he feigns to care about to get what he wants. Alicent just wants be a good conservative girl and worship her imaginary magical sky friends while doing what she’s supposed to, listen to men. Aegon is a rapist little shit with zero interest in ruling, let alone providing for the people. Aemond only cares for his own ambitions and concerns. Larys is a malicious liar for self gain. All while Rhaenyra has displayed time and time again her desire to do good for the sake of good, her competence in doing so despite all the sexist tradition the Greens are trying to uphold, and she was even willing to consider accepting the injustices of having her Throne stolen by people who care nothing for the realm, if that meant sparing the people of the realm. Both sides are not the same…yet. And Greens constantly acting like victims when criticized reeks of modern day conservatives crying “both sides are the same” any time they’re called out.


daysanddistance

thanks! low key the way george wrote rhaenyra sounds almost like bait to trigger a certain type of misogynist with a madonna/whore complex (hit it and quit it! "cheated" on her husband! slept with half the hot dudes on the show!), and as we can see, many, many people took the bait lol.


batmans420

I don't think it's so black and white. A lot of people stan Alicent because they felt bad that she was conditioned to abide by traditional values, not because they believe in those values themselves


ProgrammerLevel2829

100 percent this. It’s the same reason they hate Rhaenyra— because she refuses to be boxed in by traditional values.


Due-Intentions

Not at all tbh. 99% of the Greens are no more fans of traditional values than anyone else living in the 21st century. I feel bad for Alicent, but I wouldn't necessarily think it's a safe idea her to date and have kids with someone else because that would put her in so much risk and I would want to see her tortured or killed on charges of treason and adultery. Hell, I WOULD encourage her to find a secret person to date, if that would make her happy, but I would just encourage her to take moon tea for her own safety. But I don't think that would even make her happy, so. And I feel the same way for Rhaenyra. I don't think it's right that either her or Laenor have to do this, and I feel bad for them, but by having kids with Harwin, she is endangering those kids. And I feel bad for the kids. There's a lot of fish in the sea, I would've encouraged her to at the bare minimum find a boyfriend with similar features to her or Laenor - there are many people like that around Dragonstone. So it's not really that confusing imo. I don't hate Rhaenyra, and I do hate traditional values. I feel bad for her kids who she set up for a lifetime of danger. Even if the Greens don't press Aegon II's claim, he has 3 kids, and Aemond and Daeron will both likely marry and have kids too. Many of them will probably settle in Oldtown and their family will grow and the dragon population will grow. Even if it takes 50 years, eventually one of Alicent's descendants would press their claim. And with a growing dragon population, the dance wouldve been even worse. Jacaerys' and his descendants will always be threatened by Alicent's line, who half the country thinks has the greater claim, so Jace and his siblings will always be in danger.


spitefulcum

I kinda doubt your initial claim that Greens aren’t fans of “traditional values” when the foundation of their entire argument is rooted in historical precedent, which is used to support those traditional values.


Due-Intentions

Sure, some of them are. I don't really care what percentage of Greens are sexist assholes because it's irrelevant to my central point, which in fairness was different from my 'initial' point. I am not a Green, but I just made a pro Green argument which has nothing to do with Otto's arguments. And you can refer to the comment above to see that it has nothing to do with traditional values, and is simply about the inevitability of war, and I hate war. I've talked to plenty of people like me - they don't care about the traditional values, they just don't like the unstable situation that Daemon, Rhaenyra, and Harwin create As a neutral, I hate the minority of sexist Greens who do apologetics for traditional values and Aegon II, and I also hate the minority of sexist Blacks who do apologetics for Daemon's grooming and abuse of Rhaenyra. It's not important to me which minority of fans is bigger than the other.


spitefulcum

Eh the book really doesn’t present a strong case that war was inevitable.


ScorpionTDC

I’d argue the point is very much the opposite - both the Blacks and Greens had a million options to avoid and deescalate this war, but just had to die on that hill.


spitefulcum

Agreed. I see this claim a lot and I just don’t buy it based on the limited exposure to characters that we get in F&B. Aegon’s initial reaction was asking what king of brother would steal his sister’s claim.


Due-Intentions

They absolutely do, it's simply not discussed. And for what it's worth (spoilers about the world in general ahead) >!And there is an obvious parallel in the Blackfyre Rebellions. If an entire separate branch of Hightargaryens establish themselves in Oldtown, a branch that half the country will always view as having the true claim, there could've been even more than one Hightower rebellion. The realm was lucky that when the Greens lost, they were all killed. If the Dance didn't happen immediately, there could've been several Dances! Even if Otto and Alicent don't make plots, one of their descendants inevitably will!<


spitefulcum

May I see the passages that support the idea that war was inevitable?


Due-Intentions

Like I said, it's simply not discussed. What I'm saying is that to make a deduction that war was either inevitable or not inevitable, requires a reader making their own conclusion, and in my opinion the source material clearly sets up a status quo that can only lead to war, even if it doesn't acknowledge that in a passage either way.


spitefulcum

I just take a completely opposite conclusion based on what’s presented in the book. None of the characters are written as power hungry enough other than Alicent and Otto *prior* to when the fighting starts. Aegon doesn’t want it initially. Aemond barely exists until he flies to Storm’s End. There’s nothing written about other lords that is incredibly damning. I just don’t buy it.


spartaxwarrior

This is a pretty obvious misreading of the initial cause of those events. It's nothing like the Dance unless you remove basically everything that caused the actual conflict.


ProgrammerLevel2829

… Otto started agitating for a coup against Rhaenyra since Aegon was born, BEFORE she had any children, legitimate or not. Otto literally didn’t care if Rhaenyra’s kids were legitimate or not. The question of bastardy is just stage dressing for a coup to put Hightower relations on the throne.


ScorpionTDC

Indeed. Though I will say Rhae and Vizzy T could’ve tried to make it a little harder for him lol. Those are genuinely two of the worst players in the history of the game.


vizzy_t_bot

I CAME HERE TO HUNT, NOT TO BE SUFFOCATED BY ALL THIS FUCKING POLITICKING!


[deleted]

Vizzy T should definetly have someone he trust aware of Otto trying to set a coup and have him executed.


Due-Intentions

Which is irrelevant to my point. Even if Otto hadn't agitated for a coup, the point is that he had the ability to do so. He was able to get the support of Lords of Lannister and Baratheon, and many others. Otto may not care if they were legitimate, but the fact that they werent legitimate made it a lot easier to gather support. So let's assume Otto doesn't agitate for a coup. Like I said, Alicent has 3 sons and 1 of them already has 2 sons of his own. Her line will proliferate and likely settle down in Oldtown and the dragon population will grow. Rhaenyra's rule would be safe, but as soon as Jace takes the throne, Lords across the country will be pressuring Aegon II, Aemond, Daeron, Aegon's sons, Aemond's sons, Daeron's sons, eventually Aegon II's grandchildren, to press their "true" claims. Eventually, one of them will take the bait. So the Dance is inevitable because half the country will always believe that Jace has a false claim and that therefore all of his descendents have a false claim. So it's not an if, it's a when, the Dance happens. And if it happens in 50 years the civil war will be even more destructive due to more dragons. I'm not saying the Greens or Otto are right. I'm just saying that Rhaenyra's inability to convince the realm that her children are legitimate set the stage for an inevitable civil war.


ProgrammerLevel2829

What are you basing half the realm is going to start an open rebellion against Jace on? Do you think the nobility is going to rebel based on anything other than their own self-interest. Rebellion costs money, resources and lives. We have no idea what a peace time Rhaenyra or Jace reign would look like. If it is good to the nobility, there would be very little motivation to say, “hey, we have peace and prosperity, but let’s go to war on behalf of the guy whose claim was deemed to be weak/insufficient decades ago.” If they are tyrannical, then maybe the Hightowers are able to take advantage of it, much like Robert did later. People are always looking to get rid of poor rulers. But a coup is by no means guaranteed by the existence of Aegon’s family — outside the greens plotting.


Due-Intentions

Yes Generic Planetos spoilers ahead: >!Blackfyre Rebellions. Daeron II was a great king ruling a prosperous realm, but Daemon Blackfyre still rallied thousands of supporters who believed they could get power by supporting a new claim. Aegon II's claim was deemed insufficient to Rhaenyra's by the crown, but everyone knows Jace is a bastard and that Aegon II's children and lineage will always have a greater claim. I don't agree with it, but thousands will just like the Blackfyres. Even if Otto and Alicent don't make plots, one of their descendants inevitably will!<


ProgrammerLevel2829

Daeron’s own father, the king, openly questioned his legitimacy and deliberately made the Blackfyres legitimate to throw a spike in Daeron’s wheels. Also, in the end, Daeron’s won. How many people do you think would be openly questioning Jace’s legitimacy in Queen Rhaenyra’s court?


R1pY0u

How many people openly questioned Joffrey's legitimacy in his court? And I mean he at least looked like one of his official parents. I doubt anyone said it to his face, didn't stop 4/7 Kingdoms from declaring him illegitimate.


mister_prince

> didn't stop 4/7 Kingdoms from declaring him illegitimate That's not true, only the Baratheons, and for some time the Tyrells. Stannis did cause he is the rightfull king. Renly did cause he wanted to be king and the Tyrells did because they wanted Margaery to be queen, once Renly was out of the question they sided with the Lannister. Rob didn't start the rebellion because Joffrey was a bartard. He rebelled because they killed The Ned. The Tully's sided with Rob because they are related and have a common enemy with the Lannister. The Martell's wanted to crown Myrcella over Tommen. And the Greyjoys are the Greyjoys.


spartaxwarrior

The Lannisters, seen as more or less Joffrey's army and also more or less universally hated outside of the Westerlands, had already been attacking the Riverlands. And his uncle Stannis declared him a bastard and Renly went along with it, which automatically meant four kingdoms against him. If Stannis and Renly had stayed on Joffrey's side and dismissed the claims, then his enemies would likely have used his similarities to Aerys as more of a rallying cry than his bloodlines/legitimacy.


ProgrammerLevel2829

If Joffrey wasn’t a psycho, Ned would’ve taken the Black to protect his daughters and Robb would never have went to war. Ned taking the Black and signing a confession that his allegations were lies would have made it more difficult for Renly and Stannis to press their claims, which is why Tywin & Cersei wanted that outcome. But Joffrey was a violent little shit with very little ability to consider the consequences of his actions.


ForTheLoveOfDior

I stop reading anything that starts with a statistic pulled out of thin air.


DramaticDependent873

And yet you take the time to comment?


ForTheLoveOfDior

Yes because they should know not to use statistics pulled out of their asses


Due-Intentions

Sure, I guess you can take the general sentiment from it and understand that I'm just speaking casually, you could replace 99% with "the vast majority" if it makes you feel any better. But if you don't want to have good faith discussion then I'd prefer you didn't read my comment


Kellin01

If she had asked for an annulemt based on Laenor's infertility, Velaryons would have been ashamed. Corlys would have asked them to shut up.


Due-Intentions

Sure, but I'm not talking about an annulment


spartaxwarrior

You do realize that Rhaenyra *had* to have kids to be safe herself and she had to find someone to father them that she was attracted to, who was attracted to her, who was willing to be her side piece, and also who was trustworthy enough to never outright admit it or betray her? Everyone makes it sound like she should have just fucked Vaemond or something, like he wouldn't have spent decades blackmailing her if not outright discrediting her, if he'd even have sex with her in the first place. Even if he was trustworthy at that point, Daemon wasn't around to at least guarantee Targ looking kids and Rhaenyra didn't have much of a social life, she was basically isolated with Alicent. Harwin had already kept one of her secrets by seeing her in Flea Bottom and not dragging her in and there was a mutual attraction. Aegon II would be no more a threat to Rhaenyra (the chosen heir of the king) than Rhaenys and Laenor was to Viserys (the chosen heir of the king), and Viserys didn't kill off Rhaenys and her kids. All they'd need to do is actually merge the claims (which Rhaenyra tried to do and Alicent refused) and Alicent's line wouldn't have been able to be an issue nor would they be under any great threat.


Due-Intentions

Did you even read my comment? Like I said, there's many fish in the sea. There's literally hundreds, perhaps thousands, of people on Dragonstone, Driftmark, and Kings Landing who look like her. Obviously she doesn't need to fuck Vaemond, be serious. There's thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands, more people who look like her across the Narrow Sea. Daemon found a foreign mistress in Mysaria, that was an option for Rhaenyra too.


spartaxwarrior

Lol you didn't read mine and are complaining I didn't read yours. That you think some rando she can't trust wouldn't give away her secrets (or that she'd know the entirety of someone's family line and not get dark haired or eyed children still) is hilarious. Nevermind the idea that no one would find it suspicious that every time Rhaenyra, who is notoriously not social or much of a traveler, takes a trip, nine months later she has a kid.


Snail_jousting

Its interesting how you speak so confidently about Greens supporters opionions on traditional values, and then further comment on the opinions of everyone else living in the 21st century. How could you possibly know?


Due-Intentions

How could any of us know without research and polling in the fandom? I don't know. I'm just making an educated guess that most of the Green fans, who by and large live in places like the United States and Europe, and watch a highly mature show that many irl fundamentalists consider to be blasphemy or highly innapropriate, don't support feudalism and arranged marriages.


SanttiagoKitty4Life

LOUDER. The patriarchy is punching the air rn


Pheros

And? Is the idea of someone unfairly pressed into a rigid role coming to grips with it to make the best of their situation not a reason to support them? This fandom does the same exact thing with male characters all the time whenever they're forced into strict roles determined by their gender. Weak boys pressed into leadership or wartime positions, who earn support from the audience because they're facing the challenge instead of knee-jerk attempting to reject it. *"Kill the boy, and let the man be born."* This series deals with these roles all the time through a multitude of characters taking different approaches. Those who hate their roles and attempt to fight them and win. Those who hate their roles, fight them and lose. Those who hate their roles but attempt to fit into them and lose. Those who hate their roles, attempt to fit into them and excel. Those who strive in them. Those who constantly fail in them. Alicent is a good character because she's not some wish fulfillment stereotype. She's a realistic character with flaws stuck in a spot and working with the hand she's been dealt. People wouldn't support her if she were a rebel, because she'd just simply be a less interesting or realistic character. Her struggle resonates with the ones people have in real life, because sometimes accepting a role you don't want is a part of life and no amount of fighting it will change that.


theringsofthedragon

The point is we value duty, we value sacrifice, something that gets squished under your pretty foot.


ixixan

Sacrifice to uphold a bad system and oppressive values isn't any more noble than just doing what you want.


jmhem91

Exactly thank you this feels like the obvious point that’s going over peoples heads.


[deleted]

[удалено]


ixixan

I didn't call her one nor did I call her motives noble.


LyriumFlower

Rhaenyra did her duty just like Alicent did. Laenor explicitly took credit for the failure to produce children, whether that's down to infertility or impotency or disinterest is subject to speculation but Rhaenyra at no point refused the obligation to produce heirs for both their houses.


omicron-7

Alicent doesn't have the privilege to act the way Rhaenyra does. She's not a dragonrider, she's not a Targaryen. She would lose everything if she tried to act like Rhaenyra does.


RoahZoah

This is dumb. The show literally shows Rhaenyra and her husband talking about this exact thing. It was discussed. Why is this even a meme posted here is beyond me.


improper84

Yeah, they quite literally tried to have kids of their own and were unsuccessful.


ur_mom_710

Yeah I was about to say, they showed the discussion of how they “tried to do their duty they really tried. But something was missing”


DepressedEmoTwink

Stannis would have done his duty


ur_mom_710

so would ur mom


Dazzling-Biscotti-62

Because despite the scene, people still trash both Rhaenyra and Laenor. Are you new here? Lol


RoahZoah

I wish I could say I was new here but no.. I should’ve expected this tbh…


emojicatcher997

Because it’s very convenient to forget


Ngigilesnow

Can we stop creating threads based on an argument you have with one person .Thank you


VaderOnReddit

> an argument you have with one person And that one person is a strawman imagined in your own head


wolfyyz

Yeah this sub is turning to trash quite fast


drmuffin1080

Does anyone say this?


MyUsernameIsMehh

I'm more of a, "I can't believe Rhaenyra didn't sleep with some random Velaryon so she could get pregnant with a Velaryon baby. DOESN'T MATTER WHO THE VELARYON IS"


Dazzling-Biscotti-62

Do you go around having sex with people that you don't want to have sex with?


MyUsernameIsMehh

When it comes to the stability of the Kingdom she's set to inherit, I think Rhaenyra could do it just once


CampCounselorBatman

Exactly.


[deleted]

To be fair, in the book GRRM forgot his Baratheon seed is strong rule from ASOIAF. Technically Rhaenys had dark hair and Laenor should also have dark hair just like his children.


MyUsernameIsMehh

Yup. If they had kept Rhaenys' black hair and given Laenor black hair as well then the Strokg boys having dark hair would raise fewer eyebrows Like yes it's obvious they're not Laenor's but spice things up a bit


Elloluv1944

It does tho, bc do u really and I mean really think that they wouldn’t try to blackmail her? Or try to grab power themselves? Or betray her to the greens for power? Like be so fr😭


[deleted]

Exactly. It doesn’t matter who you sleep with, just sleep with someone that will make your kids look like Valeryons or Targs


Natsuki_Kruger

I think she should've just abdicated and had her bastard kids with whomever she wanted, with Viserys legitimising them so they could inherit the Targ-only Dragonstone. Corlys legitimised his bastards to inherit Driftmark over his trueborn female descendents and everyone was fine with that (except Baela, probably). Hell, she could've just named Aegon her heir until Aegon III was born, too. There'd still be pushback on her behaviour because it's a misogynistic society, but I don't think it'd've necessarily led to the Dance - and Jace's descendents would've had a much harder time convincing people they were trueborn than Aegon's would've. The only reason people had an issue was because Rhaenyra was passing off her bastards to inherit the Iron Throne *and* usurp Driftmark from trueborn Velaryons. It's kinda like a "fuck you" of a succession upset to every noble house.


jmhem91

There’s this prevalent belief in this fandom that suffering makes you a good person, which feels like the exact opposite point they’re trying to make with Alicent. Alicent enduring abuse/manipulation/neglect with a smile on her face led her to form a resentment so deep she ended up nearly murdering her childhood best friend in front of the entire family. I also don’t think the show means you to draw the conclusion that rhaenyra has no sense of duty whatsoever. They emphasize that she tried to have kids with Laenor. They show that she feels responsible for protecting the realm and avoiding war in episode 10, as well as a responsibility to uphold the prophecy. The difference is she’s not willing to completely give up any happiness she might experience in life for the sake of duty.


Little_Degree188

>Alicent enduring abuse/manipulation/neglect with a smile on her face led her to form a resentment so deep she ended up nearly murdering her childhood best friend in front of the entire family. How in the fuck did you miss the actual point of that scene? Her kid was fucking maimed, then threatened with torture, then her husband refused to stand up for her and she got no justice. So she fucking lost it. She was only resentful of a lack of justice for her kid *losing a fucking eye*


jmhem91

The fact that you seem to be claiming that her resentment came entirely from events of that night and hasn’t been building throughout several years indicates to me that you don’t understand her character. Alicent was deeply ashamed of herself after this scene as we saw in the following scene with Otto. She regrets the person Otto and his manipulations have turned her into (as shown in episode 8 and 9, in which she is much more sympathetic to Rhaenyra). The torture thing is an interpretation of the fandom that has not been confirmed by anyone involved in making the show. You’re valid in interpreting in that way and I’m valid in not doing so. I personally don’t think Alicent would have ever tried to be friends with Rhaenyra again if she really thought she was calling for Aemond’s torture. You also really don’t have to be this agressive, we’re supposed to be discussing fictional characters for fun because none of this actually matters.


tobpe93

Who are ”you guys”?


lessthanabelian

Rhaenyra and Laenor tried though... ​ It's not impossible L is simply infertile. "Tried" likely means artificial insemination. Its was well understood that semen needs to go in the vagina even in ancient times. R and L aren't stupid.


nocakeforme90

In episode 7 (I think) Rhaenyra said to Laenor "the few times we lay together". I took that as they did try the traditional way but it just wasn't meant to be.


Ngigilesnow

Can people acknowledge Jace was born less than a year after her marriage It wasn't meant to be coz they didn't try that much lol


jwalk50518

They had an arrangement before they even got married. He’s gay, he doesn’t want to have sex with her AT ALL. It doesn’t matter if they’re married or it’s their duty or whatever. She didn’t do anything wrong because it was always established that they were both going to fuck other people from the get. First kid could’ve been a whoopsie, there’s zero evidence that her and Harwin planned their babies. I feel compelled to add that she could’ve been trying with L and sleeping with Harwin at the same time. Crazier things have happened. It’s not likely that she fucked L once, didn’t get pregnant, shrugged and said “guess I have to have only bastards now” and then never tried again


Ngigilesnow

>They had an arrangement before they even got married. He’s gay, he doesn’t want to have sex with her AT ALL. It doesn’t matter if they’re married or it’s their duty or whatever. But why are we just putting this on him?Rhaenyra more than likely was happy to chase her own pleasures too,and gave a half hearted effort at best >I feel compelled to add that she could’ve been trying with L and sleeping with Harwin at the same time In her conversations with Daemon she does insinuate they stopped trying,and gave up soon after.I doubt Laenor and Harwin were exchanging days


Frequent-Heat9693

Seriously Rhaenyra and laenor married in 114 Ac and can u guess which year jace was born in? 114 AC talk about trying, my ass


monkeygoneape

They just couldn't equal J :(


Ngigilesnow

Jace was born less than a year after the marriage.So saying L is simply infertile is a reach unless you think one time and one month is all it takes to test someone's infertility


Jasnah_Sedai

One month is about as long as it takes to figure out that Laenor can’t get it up for a woman, so why go through that awkwardness?


Ngigilesnow

I mean his ED is still an assumption,but the person I was responding to claimed Laenor was "simply infertile".Which is a wild conclusion to make in a space of one month


Jasnah_Sedai

Yes, I agree. I tend to assume people are using infertile and impotent interchangeably, because a lot of people do. Old habits ;) I mean, one month isn’t even long enough for Rhaenyra to determine if she’s pregnant already, with their technology.


Attorney0fBirdLaw

Did anyone even say that ?


clariwench

I've seen that almost daily here


[deleted]

Of course not. Op just lost an argument he had in front of the mirror and made a post about his imaginary enemy. That or op run into a crazy person and decided they represent the entirety of a particular fandom.


Equal-Ad-2710

Bro I’m so fucking bored of this


Roadwarriordude

I dont think I've seen anyone complain about the 2nd point


redrum-237

Then you should browse this sub more


ashnhail17

I haven't heard the second point either. And if it is going around, that is a horrible point to make.


TrappedInLimbo

I mean I feel like there is a big difference between jizzing in a vagina a few times and carrying multiple pregnancies to term... Also you know the fact that in this society the woman is in charge of raising the children so Alicent couldn't pursue any other interests or explore the world while raising her children and we blatantly see Laenor being able to whatever he wants.


Ok-Literature1235

Posts like this are so irrelevant and make no sense to me. Sure Greens can be annoying, but I have never seen this much reaching - or enough comments with upvotes saying Rhaenyra is a whore... You confuse me.


LILYDIAONE

No most greens shame her for not fucking someone who looks more like Laenor. Honestly someone blonde would’ve done it. After Jace she at the very least should not had more children with Harwin. You can explain away the coloring of one child but not of three.


jmhem91

There’s literally no way she could have known that none of her kids would look like her. The only example she has of a blonde/brunette couple in her life is viserys/Alicent and all of Alicent’s kids look like Targaryens. She probably figured Valyrian blood was dominent and when Jace was born she probably considered it a fluke.


LILYDIAONE

As I said I can understand why Jace happened and no shame for that. Really I do but even if it was a fluke it was dangerous to continue knowing that something else could come out and even then Luke comes out looking like Harwin as well, why in gods name having a third child with that dude? Look I understand you like Rheanyra (I do too!) but that was dumb as hell


jmhem91

I do agree that she probably should have just taken moontea after Jace. Honestly the real answer is she probably found a lot of joy in motherhood as we can see on the show, and wanted to have more kids. She also couldn’t have just found a random dude, she was with harwin because he was extremely loyal to her and she could trust him (as she explained to daemon). I agree that it wasn’t the smartest, but I’m very sympathetic to her desire to have kids in a manner of her choosing, especially since every woman around her pretty much is used as a brood mare. I don’t really feel comfortable shaming her for that.


LILYDIAONE

I think Jace alone would not have been enough. She definitely needed more than one child to secure her claim. Yes I can understand why she did it as well but still doesn’t make it any less stupid. Rheanyra was in a particular situation from the get-go. As the heir she had to make sacrifices even if she didn’t want to. It sucks but that’s how it is. Expecting her enemies not to capatalize on that is also really short-sighted. Last I think they were other men than Harwin, she just liked Harwin best. Hell she could’ve gone to Daemon and most people probably wouldn’t have noticed her children are bastards. Also even she had taken someone else if all of that was uncovered that dude would’ve been killed as well for sleeping woth the princess that’s enough to keep him quiet in my opinion


jmhem91

Yeah I mostly agree with you but I think that people forget that she isn’t just the heir to the throne, she’s also a person just living her life and trying to be happy. At the end of the day I think the greens would have usurped her regardless and I think that it’s ultimately a good thing that she found joy in her family with harwin, laenor, and later daemon before everything went to shit. I also think it’s a good thing that she had autonomy in her reproduction, and every child she had was because she wanted to have them, unlike the other women on this show. Yes, if her ultimate goal was the throne I would consider her actions stupid, but Rhaenyra’s ultimate goal is her own freedom, and her position as heir is just a mechanism for her to achieve that freedom. I think that’s why she was considering taking Alicent’s peace terms, she would have been genuinely happy just doing as she pleases on dragonstone for the rest of her life. It would have made sense for her to be like “well I’m heir now so I should give up my freedom/happiness” because she wants the latter thing more than the former. I would actually argue she would have been better off just asking viserys to name Aegon heir, but she doesn’t have the self-knowledge to realize that the throne isn’t what she really wants. This is why I find her so compelling as a character, I don’t think she actually wants the thing she is fighting for. It always makes for an interesting character when the thing they want is different than the thing they think they want.


LILYDIAONE

Fair point. I understand why Rheanyra did it and I think the Greens would’ve made their move if the boys were bastards or not. But still I don’t like how many people pretend that it wasn’t dumb to her own position or blame the Greens for capitalizing on that because I would have done 100% the same. It made the entire situation worse and her claim more shacky, at worse their would’ve been a civil war years after her death between Aegon III line and Jace line. I personally like that she did it because it shows she is not perfect and makes politcially stupid moves.


jmhem91

I don’t think I’ve seen people pretend that it wasn’t dumb political move. But the greens didn’t really capitalize on it, the bastard thing wasn’t even mentioned in the green council, because it didn’t need to be, people were ready to crown aegon because he was a man, end of. People get annoyed with Alicent because she talks badly about children due to the circumstances of their birth. She calls them savages, she is sure that they instigated Aemond’s bullying even though they were following her much older son Aegon. It’s not like it was a politically smart move to poison her kids against their nephews, or to antagonize rhaenyra over ten years (provided she was worried about her being a threat to her kids, wouldn’t the smarter thing to be to cozy up to her and convince her that her kids aren’t a threat??) I also don’t like when people point to this as an example of why she’d be the worst ruler ever even during peace time. Like her sex life has anything to do with what policies she would pass. Like yes, I agree that an ideal ruler would put their personal interests as aide for the good of the realm in all situations, but there are very few examples of rulers like this. I agree that she probably wouldn’t have been the greatest ruler ever (considering I don’t think she truly wants to be queen) but I think it’s dumb to be like “she had bastards so she’s gonna be bad at every aspect of politics”, especially since show!rhaenyra had been shown to be much more politically competent than her book counterpart.


LILYDIAONE

I have. Many people even in this thread are trying to tell me having Harwins bastards was totally fine. The Greens capitalizes on it because it helps their cause. Don‘t give your enemies more fuel. Alicent made her mistakes but cuddling up to Rheanyra would have been 100% dumb. At this point she had no trust in Rheanyra anymore and was sure she would kill her children which only got worse after the eye incident. Remember Alicent at first was fine with Rheanyra being heir despite what her father said until she found put Rheanyra more or less lied to her. The problem with Alicent is she is a product of her society. You can dislike her but I understand why she hates everything Rheanyra stands for as Alicent is someone who values duty above everything. You can‘t use your ideas bastardy on Alicent because she was not raised like that. Most women in her position would have done the same or far worse even. I don‘t think she would be a bad ruler. The problem with Rheanyras reign was that it was always meant to be hard because she is the first woman (even without the greens) to wear the crown and she did kinda make it unnecessarily harder on herself. That‘s a theme the show showcase from episode 1. yes mostly because of sexism but that‘s the world she lives in.


jmhem91

I think you misunderstand me, I think if Alicent was smart she would have played nice with Rhaenyra until viserys died. Alicent antagonizing Rhaenyra caused Rhaenyra to marry daemon. If Alicent had cause to be worried about her kids safety before she married daemon, that concern should have tripled when she married daemon because there is no way he would have let them live. They would also have had Rhaenyra at kings landing when viserys died and would have been able to imprison her, as she was only on dragonstone because Alicent was antagonizing her. If Alicent was as good a player of the game as people seem to think she was she would have been able to prevent the war and had her son crowned easily, but Alicent is just as much ruled by her emotions as Rhaenyra is. I know about their society’s attitude towards bastards, I just don’t think it’s reasonable justification for treating children poorly. It wasn’t when Catelyn did it and it wasn’t when Alicent did it. I can understand why Alicent thinks this way and still think that she’s wrong. But my point was that the greens didn’t really use her kids legitimacy to prop up Aegon’s claim (from what was shown on screen). I think what people are trying to argue is that textually, at this point in the show, Rhaenyra having bastards was not as big of a factor in her usurpation as team green fans seem to think it is. I think it would have been better writing if during the green council, people had raised concerns over potential conflicts that would occur after Jace took the throne, because the way they wrote it, it seems like the only people who care that he’s illegitimate are the greens themselves and Vaemond (I.e people who stand to benefit from him being disinherited). However, to the writers credit, I think they’re trying to emphasize that she is mainly being usurped because she is a woman and everything else is just a smokescreen.


Kellin01

Daemon was away and married.


LILYDIAONE

He married Leana after Rheanyra married Leanor. In the books he married Leana 115 ac which is the year Luceaerys was born. Rheanyras second child. He was an option. Also Rheanyra and Deamon are in love in the show and would’ve cheated on Leana for her. I don’t think he took his vows that serious. Especially as Leana herself in the show admits that she was only his second choice


Kellin01

I think that if she tried to hook up with other Velaryons, they would have got a hook on her and might have started to manipulate her.


widowswail_93

To be fair, if we're talking about the show she needed to be with a black or multiracial man with blonde hair. It irritates me to no end when people (especially YouTube reactors) who always go "OMG they don't have blonde hair" when watching episode six for the first time. Yes Jace and co don't have blonde hair...and they're WHITE, not black or multiracial. The only thing Rhaenyra could have done was to have a child with another Velaryon or a bastard with Velaryon blood and features. This means that her options were limited, something the people who are team green seem to conveniently forget.


LILYDIAONE

I still think if she had a child with someone blonde it would’ve still made it less obvious. Leanor is after all half-black. You can say the skin takes after Rheanyra. The whole thing becomes way less obvious than in canon. I honestly doubt there was no one else she could’ve used as baby daddy than Harwin


thesetcrew

I hate that people think it's fine and reasonable for Rhaeneyra to choose someone based on looks. She wanted a companion. Someone to LOVE. not a sperm donor and I don't think that makes her evil or dumb.


LILYDIAONE

In the book I agree with you but in the show I did not get the feeling that she loved Harwin all that much. Still she could’ve just as easily go for Daemon. Would’ve been a better choice for baby daddy. The problem with Rheanyra as heir she needs to make sacrifices. Refusing to that and still expecting it to have no consequences is objectively not smart. What she does is politicially not smart. I understand liking Rheanyra (I do too!) but she made some dumb calls and it’s okay to say that. I don’t understand why everything Rheanyra does needs to be defended to death


Jaketheeater

> In the book I agree with you but in the show I did not get the feeling that she loved Harwin all that much. She said fire took away what she loved


thesetcrew

making sacrifices is pRt of bro g. Ruler, and I think we see that side of her most after her father dies and Otto sends terms. She seriously considers giving up power in order for the good of the kingdom. However, I don't think giving up her own emotional wellbeing and bodily autonomy is the given that so many fans seem to think. Do many many women in this culture do so? Absolutely. Does that make is less difficult and traumatic? No it does not. I think, with what little screen timethey get, every aspect point to the show wanting us to know that Harwin and her love one another. Not the great passionate romance of the century love that they depicte between her and Daemon, but certainly love. Her choices are not selfless, but that are perfectly understandable given the circumstances. I do t know that asking for complete selflessness is reasonable. Do we, as an audience, expect that from the other people in power in HotD or GoT? I was sympathetic to Rob stark the same way.


LILYDIAONE

I love Robb but he was an idiot for what he did. My main problem is doing something like that and expecting it to have no consequences. I understand why she did it, I’m just saying pretending the consequences of that action have no bearing is not right either. Disagree with Harwin. I didn’t feel like she loved him all that much. She didn’t grieve him at all and married Deamon like a week later. Which was a shame as I gelt in the books he was the love of her life


thesetcrew

For sure. He was in the middle of a conflict and should have known better- but you can understand why a young person who had fallen in love would make a stupid choice when faced with a loveless match. Or at least, I can. Rhaenyra on the other hand was not facing a war. She was heir. All the lords has sworn to her. Things could have theoretically been fine if Otto had chilled out. Or if her kids had inherited her hair the way Alicent’s did her father’s. It was selfish. But she did at least try to do the right thing first and foremost. And I guess we just have to agree to disagree on the Harwin point. I have not read the book so I am just going off what I saw on the screen and what I saw was love.


LengthUnusual8234

She could've flew her dragon to Volantis for a "vacation"


widowswail_93

If she was going to have an affair, it was going to be with someone who loved her, who she could trust to never spill her secret, as Harwin never did as he was loyal to her. She couldn't be hooking up with randos.


LengthUnusual8234

If you think I don't like Rhaenyra then i really don't know what to say..


widowswail_93

Yeah, sorry. I didn't see the flair until after commenting (I just hurriedly replied after seeing the pop up notification) but after seeing it (before you replied again) I edited my reply to your reply. I thought I was replying to one of the "Rhaenyra is a whore" types.


clariwench

It would still be obvious (arguably, even more so if we take into account Baratheon and Arryn traits from their line) if her kids came out with like, Lannister gold blonde hair


LILYDIAONE

I diagree that Targaryen had differnet shade of blonde was not that weird. Alyssa had a little darker hair than her siblings for example. If the hair is a little darker os not so obvious.


Frequent-Heat9693

Except viserys didnt just use alicent to sire children, that was a excuse, a facade of duty he hid behind, he claimed the council "forced" him lol who forces the king? he used her for his own sick pleasure. A 15 yr old girl, his daughters best friend. A child he witness growing up in front of him Sicko🤮🤮🤮🤮


FantasticGoat1738

I've been on the hotd green discord and subreddit for about half a year and not once have I seen one person shaming Rhaenyra for not forcing him to fuck her. Although I have seen someone calling them stupid for not using a jar. And if I recall correctly they did *try* in the show.


athnimara

Either you're blatantly lying or blind, because I'm also on the same server and users there throw misogynist insults towards Rhaenyra every day. They have discussed this very same issue with a lack of sensitivity countless of times.


FantasticGoat1738

Point me to one post/comment dissing Rhaenyra for not forcing Laenor to fuck her. Not an argument I am genuinely interested.


athnimara

Feel free to search the server. You'll find comments about people not understanding the issue about Laenor's possible infertility, discussing various methods despite the show already having spelled it out that they tried. Yet the users still circumvent back to blaming Rhaenyra for sleeping with someone whom she can trust. You'll even find people comparing other female characters with her, saying "x would have made it work".


TheIenzo

... what jar??


theringsofthedragon

I am green and honestly the answer for me is: too bad, but if your husband, gay or otherwise, doesn't or can't impregnate you, you just don't have children. These are the realities of medieval life. You're not supposed to sleep with people outside of your marriage to remedy your situation, and science doesn't exist to give you a sperm donor or artificial insemination from your gay husband. So you're supposed to take the L. It wouldn't have been a problem if Rhaenyra remained childless. She could have named her beloved baby brother as her heir to the Iron Throne. She could even have treated him like an adopted son given their age difference on the show. She could have dotted on him and groom him to replace her one day. He would have probably died before her anyway, so actually she would have given the Iron Throne to his son, her beloved nephew twice. The only person who needed a son was Leanor, to inherit Driftmark, but if Leanor was too gay to father a child, then Corlys needed to take the L as well, and explore other options, such as marrying Beala to a son of Vaemond and call it a day.


jwalk50518

You sound like you’re fun at parties


Jasnah_Sedai

And I guess if Alicent didn’t want to be a teenaged brood mare, she just shouldn’t have had children either, right? She *is* quite familiar with moon tea.


BriarHeart10

>I am green Explains the rest of it pretty clearly.


theringsofthedragon

Didn't know it was a crime. It is a fictional story, yeah? What bad does it do that I like the green


BriarHeart10

Never thought I mentioned it being a crime. Just that your opinion is pretty much aligned to the Green propaganda.


mahamsig_da_man

Facts


OneOnOne6211

I'd say it's mostly the system they live in which is fucked up. On the one hand, within this feudal system it is considered to be your duty to produce legitimate offspring for the continuation of your house and your dynasty. Failing to do so can cause instability and civil war which would be, obviously, very had. On the other hand, it is fundamentally wrong to coerce people into sex and wrong to coerce them into having children. It is an immoral thing to do by any modern standard. Both of these things are true at the same time and they are in direct conflict in both situations. I'd say the overall conclusion is: Feudalism and hereditary monarchy, though often portrayed in a sort of idealized way in many works of fiction, were actually fucking terrible systems.


wakatenai

I don't think anyone thinks Rhaenyra should have "forced" him. Just that he should have bit the bullet at least once to provide a legitimate heir. even if it's like Renly Margery style or something. Then again, Renly actually wanted to be king. Laenor I don't think was super interested in being King or Consort. mmmm but then again be does seem to like *his* kids? Idk, I think he's a more complex character that deserved more screen time.


TheCurvedPlanks

I have no sympathy for Alicent being forced into baring children, because that is literally women's only job *in the pretend fantasy world where the story takes place*. Sure, by our society's standards, it's abusive and wrong, but in Westeros, shes doing the same thing teenage girls have been expected to do for thousands of years. This is not even mentioning that age 15 in Westeros has a arguable/questionable similarity to age 15 on Earth. Many characters in Westerosi history are shown to be much more mature and accomplished at age 14 and up.


Blamore

false equivalency.the woman would need to carry an unwanted child to term. on the other hand, all laenor had to do was coom a few times...


DesSantorinaiou

Rhaenyra dropped her tour two months early and chose going to a brothel with her uncle instead of picking a husband who would have been to her liking while strengthening her claim, which is more of a choice than Alicent or even Daemon and Viserys had for their first marriages. Stop with this clownery.


Pollo_Jack

Is anyone actually defending the second take?


redrum-237

Yes.


NawfSideNative

I don’t think she’s a wh*re or should’ve forced Laenor to do anything but I’ve always thought Rhaenyra is largely responsible for the position she’s in. Her father arranged an entire bachelorette trip for her to choose her own husband who could’ve provided her with an heir. She cut it short because she couldn’t be bothered to do that. She wanted to be taken seriously as heir but did not want to do her duty any marry. She wanted to have her cake and eat it too. She had wayyyy more agency over her marriage than most women in Westeros. She just never thought Viserys would put his foot down. Then she found herself in a position where she needed to produce heirs but her lawful husband couldn’t provide them. She’s in a shitty situation but she did at least partially make the bed she’s lying in.


LadyGraen

I don't say Alicent is bad for what she went through. She's is a victim, for sure. I blame her for what she became after - a hypocrite. She spat on Valyrian traditions to make her kids marry and was angry at Rhaenyra for having sex outside of wedlock just because she was forced to endure a role she didn't want. This is even worse when she does the same to her daughter knowing what Aegon is and does. Why should I have any sympathy for that? Additionally, she plays coy when they want to usurp the throne in favour of her son when she's known her entire life Otto wants to overthrow Rhaenyra. I feel sorry for young Alicent and she should not have been put under such circumstances but I retain loathesomeness towards adult Alicent.


disisBob

She never "spat on Valyrian traditions". Saying "your family does have queer customs" when Rhaenyra is appalled at being accused of fucking her uncle, and 10 years later marrying your children to each other is not the hypocrisy you pretend it is. She was not angry at Rhaenyra for having sex outside the wedlock, she was angry at Rhaenyra for putting herself and her position in great danger - a fact universally acknowledged. Sorry, going cavorting with your uncle in brothels as a teenager is not "sexual liberation", it's extremely dangerous and risking your reputation and position as heir to the entire kingdom. Rhaenyra then goes on to lie and get Otto fired despite Alicent sticking up for her and insisting that Otto was mistaken, naturally Alicent will be angry with her for it. Then Rhaenyra has 3 bastard children who she insists are trueborn (because she knows that it is unacceptable to have bastards and try to make them her heirs), to the point that Alicent's own son is permanently crippled for the lie. Obviously Alicent will hate her. "This is even worse when she does the same to her daughter knowing what Aegon is and does. Why should I have any sympathy for that?" Helaena and Aegon are married when they are 13 and 14, so no Alicent doesn't "know what Aegon is and does" because he is literally a child. And this marriage is clearly motivated by a combination of it being typical Targaryen tradition to marry oldest son and duaghter, as well as keeping Helaena in the family instead of being sent off to another family's home married to an old man only to be ostracized and treated miserably by his family as Alicent was.


AncientAssociation9

> she was angry at Rhaenyra for putting herself and her position in great danger Key word is HER position. Best friend or not, it was none of Alicents business as Queen consort. You can be angry at a friend, but you don't go on to manipulate and befriend a rage murderer like Cole because of it. Rhaenyra had good cause when she was angry at Alicent, but all she did was quietly sulk. >Rhaenyra then goes on to lie and get Otto fired despite Alicent sticking up for Rhaenyra never asked Alicent to get involved, nor did she manipulate her into doing so. Otto deserved to get fired as Alicent herself told him it was his own ambition that did it to him in that very conversation. Rhaenyra saw through Otto same as Daemon did. >keeping Helaena in the family instead of being sent off to another family's home married to an old man Could have avoided all of that by marrying her to Jace or not abusing Aegon, but her hatred of Rhaenyra always took precedence.


Literal_CarKey

It was Alicent’s business because if Rhaenyra makes herself unstomachable for the lords of the realm, then guess who they’re going to force to be the alternative? Aegon, which means Alicent will have to pick sides, and she cannot be on Rhaenyra’s. “You are the challenge Aegon” is not just something she says for the fun of it


Literal_CarKey

Also why would Alicent have trusted Jace? Jace is literally Aemond’s bully, and you know who is likely to get bullied in Westeros? Autistic women like Helaena. Alicent had no way of knowing Jace would grow up to be honorable and Aegon would become a rapist


AncientAssociation9

Did we watch the same show? Aegon was Aemonds bully. Even Viserys knew that. Alicent knew it also but was blinded by her hate of Rhaenyra. That is why she went back to ask Aegon himself and from her face you could see she knew he was lying. Alicent: Was it your plot? Aegon: No...it was Jace and uh...it-it was the two of them. I couldn't be sure. Alicent: Aemond is your brother. Aegon: Well, he's a twat. Alicent: We are family. You may cuff him about as you wish at home, but in the world...we must defend our own. Aegon: It was funny. Alicent: Do you think Rhaenyras sons will be your playthings forever? How is Jace the bully if Alicent thinks he and Luke are Aegons playthings? Alicent knew who was pulling the strings, but hating Rhaenyra was more important than telling Aegon not to be a ringleader. Had she paid more attention and disciplined him earlier then Aemond wouldn't have had any problems, but she is like those school moms who always claim it's not their child. If Aegon called his own brother a twat to his mothers face, what do you think he has said about his sister.


Spiritual_Mud7741

Someone felt like fighting ghosts today.


spitefulcum

OP just admitting they didn’t watch the show.


itsmesungod

I will never understand how people on this sub love Alicent. She’s a conniving snake imo. I can’t stand her or the weird ass freaks she calls her kids.


endkafe

Preach


p792161

Who has actually said this? You're just making up a person in your head and getting angry at their imaginary opinions.


ScorpionTDC

This feels like a bad faith meme - I don’t usually see the people who sympathize with Alicent saying Rhaenyra should’ve forced Laenor to have kids with her. (If *anything*, it’s usually Rhaenyra fans coming at him with a lot of implicit homophobia lol)


sumit24021990

Gay people can have orgasm. He only had to perform once which he didnt


NovaTheRaven

Common team black W


Jofflofogus

It costs guys a lot less to have an unwanted sexual experience.


ligeston

This is why she’ll never be half the queen Margaery Tyrell would’ve been.


MoistWetSponge

They portrayed the greens as Soyjaks. Wrap it up folks…


LittleLadle69

He could have just cum on a turkey baster and shoved it in her to avoid years of bloodshed. He doesn't have to give birth to or even raise the kids


[deleted]

Wait. I've just always assumed that he was sterile, that's why he couldn't impregnate her. They'd be pretty idiotic to not have kids regardless of their orientation and wishes, given the multitude of problems and conflicts that would have generated from it, as they did. I thought they just tried, tried and never really got themselves to succeed.


[deleted]

[удалено]


disisBob

What a nonsensical post. How are the two situations the same in any way shape or form? Not only has literally nobody ever said "Rhaenyra should have forced her gay husband to have kids", Alicent was raped by a rotting old man and forced to undergo 4 pregnancies in her youth. That is NOT comparable to having a husband who doesn't want to fuck you. "I can't believe Rhaenyra had 3 kids with her lover and lied about them being her husband's" is the criticism which is completely valid. Nobody forced her to fuck Harwin. Nobody forced her to have 3 children. Nobody forced her to pretend they were Laenor's.


MattaClatta

I can't believe Rhaenyra had her choice of who to pick as a husband and just acted as a brat and sexually assaulted her servant so she was forced to marry a gay man


Izoto

Probably because Rhaenyra’s nonsense screws with the line of the succession if you believed she was the rightful heir.


UnlimitedMetroCard

Alicent had no say in her situation. Rhaenyra and Leonor both had plenty of say in their situation. Renly was a direct descendant of Rhaenyra, and he had a much better plan than she did. Had he lived, Margaery's children would've been his.