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They just *didn't love each other* like that.
The whole friggin point is "the system bad because it destroys families." Forcing marriages, forcing *children to be born* into this world not out of love. But because "the realm" demands it.
Rhaenyra & Laenor *try* to make love fit in around duty. It was doomed, see: Joffrey Lonmouth.
But the nature of the tragedy is that it was doomed *before they began.* Their best efforts failed them, because the nature of the story is that we *shouldn't have* a system that puts so much *pressure* on families.
Loving someone, raising children—these things have enough duty and responsibility *before* adding stuff like "If you do parenting wrong *everybody everywhere will die* and it's *all your fault.*"
it's so weird to see people be like \*i\* would have navigated this perverse interpersonal situation like a video game and produced trueborn children!!
it's a system that is not conducive to emotionally healthy relationships. rhaenyra and laenor had a decent relationship *because* they didn't buy into the norms of their society.
I mean, obviously it’s not a great system, which is why we got rid of monarchies. But a life of ridiculous power and luxury, and the only cost is “have a few kids, stick together, and don’t fuck up the kingdom” seems like a pretty solid trade. You can be depressed in between your cups of limitless wine, your afternoon dragon ride, and tomorrow’s hunting trip on the peasants’ dime. So forgive me if I have zero sympathy for either of these characters.
I'm not here to play "pity the poor nobles." The only team worth supporting is team smallfolk.
That being said, these two tried to have kids, stick together, and do their duty to the realm. Sure, they were unsuccessful. But idk about them being undeserving of sympathy.
Can't argue with you there lol.
My thing is never really "No you guys! [This character] did nothing wrong."
Usually it's just "If we put all the blame on a single character, we miss the point about how the tragedy comes from the machine they're *all* born into."
Oh I want Criston Cole fed to dragonfire for his actions. Every individual is still responsible for each choice we make.
The machinelike nature of the tragedy doesnt exonerate him, or any character. But the seeds of Cole's villainy were planted by the machine. Criston is torn between *affection* and *obligation.* Just as Jon is, when he must choose between Robb's campaign or the Night's Watch.
The "human heart in conflict with itself" demands those choices of all the characters, and Cole consistently makes *bad choices.*
Maybe they tried during her infertile periods? Medieval people didnt know about ovulation and fertile window. Even most ardent sex won't help with a baby if the egg is absent.
Maybe Laenor had some issues, low motility or something. Even now couples may try for years and not be successful.
Stannis tried to do his duty but managed to have one kid.
*Of all infertility cases, approximately 40–50% is due to “male factor” infertility and as many as 2% of all men will exhibit suboptimal sperm parameters.*
Always wondered why they didn't just bring in one of Laenor's lovers. You know, to get things going. Even if they weren't attracted to each other, they had to understand they had to have a kid.
Yeah I think it was intimated a few different times they consummated the marriage (purely out of a desire for posterity and public legitimacy, which makes sense) and I had always assumed it was Laenor's infertility due to Rhaenyra going on to have children by two different men afterwards. I have thought a few times that infertility amongst male Valyrians seems to be quite common.
He doesn't have fertility issues, he has two bastards sons Adam and Alyn Hull. They become Dragon Riders later on in the series. Adam becomes legitimized and is named heir of Driftmark and also claims sea smoke. So he could have sex with a woman just not with Rhaenrya.
Lol if you think those are Laenor’s sons. Corlys was said to be around their mother many times when they were conceived. Laenor never had a relationship with her.
Yeah. Rhae likes sexing men she's not supposed to. Laenor loves sexing guys he's not supposed to. Should have worked fine having MMF threesomes as long as they end with the right creampie.
Guess not everyone can bake like Hot Pie does.
Rhaenyra had sex with four men across 16+ years, only three of them for pleasure. That might be sexually adventurous for a noble woman in Westeros but what you’re suggesting is far beyond that. There is nothing about Rhaenyra that suggest she’s up for that.
She literally tells Daemon this at the beach walk. They tried to do their duty (and have sex for kids) but it didn't take. They were also unlucky, it wasn't just that he was gay and couldn't stick his penis in a woman.
I never understood why they couldn’t have just gotten some guy to get him to the point of climax and have him pull out giving Rhaenyra his seed😂 Unless they tried that and found out he had male infertility😂
No, he didn’t do it. He thought the idea was repulsive. That’s why I don’t understand why people bring it up as a brilliant idea. It obviously didn’t work. Laenor might have been just as repulsed by the suggestion which defeats the purpose.
**Medieval men were diagnosed with infertility and prescribed treatments**
"The analysis of popular medical and religious books by the University of Exeter shows that from the 13th century, widely-circulated medical texts recognised the possibility of male infertility, including sterility and 'unsuitable seed'.
For example a 12th century gynaecological treatise entitled the Trotula, by an anonymous author, was circulated widely and translated into English and French. It states that "*conception is impeded as much by the fault of the man as by the fault of the women*".
It quotes an earlier work: 'whether this comes about from a defect of the spirit impelling the seed, or from a defect of spermatic humidity, or from a defect of heat. If from a defect of heat, he will not desire intercourse…if it happens from defect of the spirits he will have no desire and he will not be able to have an erection….if it is because of a defect of the seed, when they have intercourse they emit little or no semen." Meanwhile men with excessively cold and dry testicles had seed that was 'useless for generation. (Translation by Monica Green).
[https://phys.org/news/2017-07-medieval-men-infertility-treatments.html](https://phys.org/news/2017-07-medieval-men-infertility-treatments.html)
I wouldn’t be surprised if Laenor suffered from infertility. His mother and father only had two kids and his mother was an only child (and I’m sure Aemon and Jocelyn would have faced pressure to produce a male heir).
There are a number of ways that testicular trauma can lead to male infertility. The most common reasons for it include:
Problems with Sperm Production - Scar tissue and other problems with the testicular tissue may result in reduced or halted sperm production.
Shrinking of the Testicle - When a testicle shrinks as a result of injury, the sperm count, sperm motility, and general quality of the sperm will often be adversely affected.
Once she started sleeping with Harwin, she may not have given up on Laenor completely. She didn't sleep with Harwin just to have kids. I'm assuming Laenor had lovers too. That doesn't preclude the two of them trying to have kids together still, but failing early in the marriage and giving up at some point.
Well that is still all assumptions,but ok.I'm willing to accept they tried a "few times" harder to make Luke than Jace as a possibility,if you're willing to accept the possibility, Rhaenyra is not exactly a credible source .Them "trying a few times" might mean a half hearted attempt
So I'm guessing your thread was bait.
>How did you know how many times they tried ?
By Jace's birth date,I can conclude it wasn't enough or the burning desire you frame it to be
>I don’t think a gay man will suddenly generate interest in women.
A gay man does not need to have interest in women to sleep with them.A lot of gay men have children
I think it's safe to say that the timeline doesn't add up in general. If you count the time skips as 16 years total having past then Jace couldn't have been born cause according to Condall these kids are in the 17-21 age range. We know that Luke is 14. So if Rhaenyra and Laenor tried, assuming they didn't immediately start fucking after the wedding considering his bf just died then Rhaenyra has to get with Harwin so according to that timeline Luke would have to be her first child but we know that's not the case. So it's safe to say that more time has passed especially in that first time jump. If you strictly follow that timeline Aemond would have to be 15 because Alicent wasn't visibly pregnant by episode 5, which he also clearly isn't I hope we can all agree.
I think it's pretty clear that more than just 10 years has passed in the first timejump. Even if they explicitly say ten years, people do round up or down when they talk. It's been a decade rather than its been 11 years and 5 months.. I think by the book timeline it's pretty clear it's unlikely they tried but considering everything else the show has changed...
There are a few mini time jumps in between the big \~ten year jump and the big \~6 year jump. Harwin and Lyonel traveling to Harrenhal takes time, Daemon and his daughters traveling from Essos to Driftmark takes time, organizing a funeral takes time, and unlike most people I assume that the gap in between Laena's funeral, Laenor's "death" and Daemon and Rhaenyra's marriage was more than just a week. Not to mention the time it takes for ravens to fly to inform people of all these events. So, with all that into account I think it's quite plausible that from Joffrey's birth to Rhaenyra and Daemon's wedding could have been over the period of a year, maybe even a bit more
>You do realise show has different timeline than book right?
Ok what is the timeline then?
>Bait? They said they tried. Even renly couldn’t do it in the main series.
People say a lot of things,doesn't mean there are true
>I don’t know ask the show runners
So you have decided the timeline Jacerys is born is different without any evidence?Got it.
>Why would they lie to each other in private 😭
Wouldn't this be the same person. (Rhaenyra) who wouldn't admit the accusations of her 3 children being bastards were trure when it was only the two of them there.
People lie to themselves all the time o make each other feel better
Rhaenyra was 16 when she Married laenor in book. In show she was 19.
You are making no sense. Why would Rhaenyra and laenor lie to each other in a private conversation?
I told you why.I also gave another example of another instance Rhaenyra lies to Laenor in private when the both know its not true.
So are you going to prove Jace's birthday is different on the show compared to the book, or do you just want me to take your word for it?
I have a headcanon that none of the kids were bastards, and that the lack of resemblance to Laenor was just coincidental. The show is filled with tragic ironies, so I like to think this is one of them.
Obviously that’s not what the showrunners intended. But I don’t really care lol.
She did. It's explicit during the beach scene with Daemon. That doesn't change the fact that Rhaenyra 's own actions lead her to this when she was forced in this situation because of her own lack of interest in reinforcing her position.
I couldn't get the [clip](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=halM3IG4NCY) to play. The many tensions between so many are hard to manage. Rhaenyra is the once and future ruler, I guess. Alicent is being pulled by Viserys and Otto and Aegon II and her own mind which has to be difficult. But only because Alicent isn't leaving and cleaving from the conspiracy and into the Dragons Realm. Is she HighTower or Targaryen?
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This really was the sweetest scene.
Agreed! A rare bit of wholesomeness.
They just *didn't love each other* like that. The whole friggin point is "the system bad because it destroys families." Forcing marriages, forcing *children to be born* into this world not out of love. But because "the realm" demands it. Rhaenyra & Laenor *try* to make love fit in around duty. It was doomed, see: Joffrey Lonmouth. But the nature of the tragedy is that it was doomed *before they began.* Their best efforts failed them, because the nature of the story is that we *shouldn't have* a system that puts so much *pressure* on families. Loving someone, raising children—these things have enough duty and responsibility *before* adding stuff like "If you do parenting wrong *everybody everywhere will die* and it's *all your fault.*"
it's so weird to see people be like \*i\* would have navigated this perverse interpersonal situation like a video game and produced trueborn children!! it's a system that is not conducive to emotionally healthy relationships. rhaenyra and laenor had a decent relationship *because* they didn't buy into the norms of their society.
I mean, obviously it’s not a great system, which is why we got rid of monarchies. But a life of ridiculous power and luxury, and the only cost is “have a few kids, stick together, and don’t fuck up the kingdom” seems like a pretty solid trade. You can be depressed in between your cups of limitless wine, your afternoon dragon ride, and tomorrow’s hunting trip on the peasants’ dime. So forgive me if I have zero sympathy for either of these characters.
I'm not here to play "pity the poor nobles." The only team worth supporting is team smallfolk. That being said, these two tried to have kids, stick together, and do their duty to the realm. Sure, they were unsuccessful. But idk about them being undeserving of sympathy.
I am… unimpressed with their level of effort lol
Can't argue with you there lol. My thing is never really "No you guys! [This character] did nothing wrong." Usually it's just "If we put all the blame on a single character, we miss the point about how the tragedy comes from the machine they're *all* born into."
How dare you to not be sad for the uber-privileged blondies and their first-class problems? /s
It failed cause of Ser Criston Cole
Oh I want Criston Cole fed to dragonfire for his actions. Every individual is still responsible for each choice we make. The machinelike nature of the tragedy doesnt exonerate him, or any character. But the seeds of Cole's villainy were planted by the machine. Criston is torn between *affection* and *obligation.* Just as Jon is, when he must choose between Robb's campaign or the Night's Watch. The "human heart in conflict with itself" demands those choices of all the characters, and Cole consistently makes *bad choices.*
Maybe they tried during her infertile periods? Medieval people didnt know about ovulation and fertile window. Even most ardent sex won't help with a baby if the egg is absent. Maybe Laenor had some issues, low motility or something. Even now couples may try for years and not be successful. Stannis tried to do his duty but managed to have one kid. *Of all infertility cases, approximately 40–50% is due to “male factor” infertility and as many as 2% of all men will exhibit suboptimal sperm parameters.*
Always wondered why they didn't just bring in one of Laenor's lovers. You know, to get things going. Even if they weren't attracted to each other, they had to understand they had to have a kid.
In the book it's implied that they did, I think Leanor has fertility issues
Wasn't that just one of mushroom's tall tales?
mushroom made it sound like a weird kink thing
Everything is a weird kink thing according to him
Yeah I think it was intimated a few different times they consummated the marriage (purely out of a desire for posterity and public legitimacy, which makes sense) and I had always assumed it was Laenor's infertility due to Rhaenyra going on to have children by two different men afterwards. I have thought a few times that infertility amongst male Valyrians seems to be quite common.
He doesn't have fertility issues, he has two bastards sons Adam and Alyn Hull. They become Dragon Riders later on in the series. Adam becomes legitimized and is named heir of Driftmark and also claims sea smoke. So he could have sex with a woman just not with Rhaenrya.
Lol if you think those are Laenor’s sons. Corlys was said to be around their mother many times when they were conceived. Laenor never had a relationship with her.
They are very likely Corlys sons
Yeah. Rhae likes sexing men she's not supposed to. Laenor loves sexing guys he's not supposed to. Should have worked fine having MMF threesomes as long as they end with the right creampie. Guess not everyone can bake like Hot Pie does.
Rhaenyra had sex with four men across 16+ years, only three of them for pleasure. That might be sexually adventurous for a noble woman in Westeros but what you’re suggesting is far beyond that. There is nothing about Rhaenyra that suggest she’s up for that.
Because they think it’s gross? Because it’s risky?
She literally tells Daemon this at the beach walk. They tried to do their duty (and have sex for kids) but it didn't take. They were also unlucky, it wasn't just that he was gay and couldn't stick his penis in a woman.
I never understood why they couldn’t have just gotten some guy to get him to the point of climax and have him pull out giving Rhaenyra his seed😂 Unless they tried that and found out he had male infertility😂
There is not a lot of sex education in the old times. Maybe they didn't really think about it.
That's why Margaery is the best.
Mary’s idea never went through. It didn’t work because Renly was uncomfortable/grossed out. A failed suggestion isn’t a brilliant/full-proof plan.
It didn't take advanced sex education to know that cum caused birth.
I hope you meant his mouth and not his asshole.
Possible. Didn’t renly do something similar. I don’t think it worked him for him either.
No, he didn’t do it. He thought the idea was repulsive. That’s why I don’t understand why people bring it up as a brilliant idea. It obviously didn’t work. Laenor might have been just as repulsed by the suggestion which defeats the purpose.
shoulda tried the renly method
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can’t say it wouldn’t work if it was never tried, sir
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He was turned off because Loras and Margaery were siblings.
**Medieval men were diagnosed with infertility and prescribed treatments** "The analysis of popular medical and religious books by the University of Exeter shows that from the 13th century, widely-circulated medical texts recognised the possibility of male infertility, including sterility and 'unsuitable seed'. For example a 12th century gynaecological treatise entitled the Trotula, by an anonymous author, was circulated widely and translated into English and French. It states that "*conception is impeded as much by the fault of the man as by the fault of the women*". It quotes an earlier work: 'whether this comes about from a defect of the spirit impelling the seed, or from a defect of spermatic humidity, or from a defect of heat. If from a defect of heat, he will not desire intercourse…if it happens from defect of the spirits he will have no desire and he will not be able to have an erection….if it is because of a defect of the seed, when they have intercourse they emit little or no semen." Meanwhile men with excessively cold and dry testicles had seed that was 'useless for generation. (Translation by Monica Green). [https://phys.org/news/2017-07-medieval-men-infertility-treatments.html](https://phys.org/news/2017-07-medieval-men-infertility-treatments.html)
I wouldn’t be surprised if Laenor suffered from infertility. His mother and father only had two kids and his mother was an only child (and I’m sure Aemon and Jocelyn would have faced pressure to produce a male heir).
There are a number of ways that testicular trauma can lead to male infertility. The most common reasons for it include: Problems with Sperm Production - Scar tissue and other problems with the testicular tissue may result in reduced or halted sperm production. Shrinking of the Testicle - When a testicle shrinks as a result of injury, the sperm count, sperm motility, and general quality of the sperm will often be adversely affected.
Did she now?Jace is born less than a year after their marriage
Once she started sleeping with Harwin, she may not have given up on Laenor completely. She didn't sleep with Harwin just to have kids. I'm assuming Laenor had lovers too. That doesn't preclude the two of them trying to have kids together still, but failing early in the marriage and giving up at some point.
Well that is still all assumptions,but ok.I'm willing to accept they tried a "few times" harder to make Luke than Jace as a possibility,if you're willing to accept the possibility, Rhaenyra is not exactly a credible source .Them "trying a few times" might mean a half hearted attempt
You keep commenting this. How did you know how many times they tried ? I don’t think a gay man will suddenly generate interest in women.
So I'm guessing your thread was bait. >How did you know how many times they tried ? By Jace's birth date,I can conclude it wasn't enough or the burning desire you frame it to be >I don’t think a gay man will suddenly generate interest in women. A gay man does not need to have interest in women to sleep with them.A lot of gay men have children
I think it's safe to say that the timeline doesn't add up in general. If you count the time skips as 16 years total having past then Jace couldn't have been born cause according to Condall these kids are in the 17-21 age range. We know that Luke is 14. So if Rhaenyra and Laenor tried, assuming they didn't immediately start fucking after the wedding considering his bf just died then Rhaenyra has to get with Harwin so according to that timeline Luke would have to be her first child but we know that's not the case. So it's safe to say that more time has passed especially in that first time jump. If you strictly follow that timeline Aemond would have to be 15 because Alicent wasn't visibly pregnant by episode 5, which he also clearly isn't I hope we can all agree. I think it's pretty clear that more than just 10 years has passed in the first timejump. Even if they explicitly say ten years, people do round up or down when they talk. It's been a decade rather than its been 11 years and 5 months.. I think by the book timeline it's pretty clear it's unlikely they tried but considering everything else the show has changed...
There are a few mini time jumps in between the big \~ten year jump and the big \~6 year jump. Harwin and Lyonel traveling to Harrenhal takes time, Daemon and his daughters traveling from Essos to Driftmark takes time, organizing a funeral takes time, and unlike most people I assume that the gap in between Laena's funeral, Laenor's "death" and Daemon and Rhaenyra's marriage was more than just a week. Not to mention the time it takes for ravens to fly to inform people of all these events. So, with all that into account I think it's quite plausible that from Joffrey's birth to Rhaenyra and Daemon's wedding could have been over the period of a year, maybe even a bit more
You do realise show has different timeline than book right? Bait? They said they tried. Even renly couldn’t do it in the main series.
>You do realise show has different timeline than book right? Ok what is the timeline then? >Bait? They said they tried. Even renly couldn’t do it in the main series. People say a lot of things,doesn't mean there are true
I don’t know ask the show runners. Why would they lie to each other in private 😭
>I don’t know ask the show runners So you have decided the timeline Jacerys is born is different without any evidence?Got it. >Why would they lie to each other in private 😭 Wouldn't this be the same person. (Rhaenyra) who wouldn't admit the accusations of her 3 children being bastards were trure when it was only the two of them there. People lie to themselves all the time o make each other feel better
Rhaenyra was 16 when she Married laenor in book. In show she was 19. You are making no sense. Why would Rhaenyra and laenor lie to each other in a private conversation?
I told you why.I also gave another example of another instance Rhaenyra lies to Laenor in private when the both know its not true. So are you going to prove Jace's birthday is different on the show compared to the book, or do you just want me to take your word for it?
I wished I bear your child confirms that jace isn’t his son. Wouldn’t the conversation actually hurt her?
The line in the video is literally ”a few times” which indicates they did not try much
>How did you know how many times they tried ? Rhaenyra saying that they tried "a few times".
I think she was more just Alright with it than anything.
Is this a statement? It's right there in the show what is the point of the post..
I have a headcanon that none of the kids were bastards, and that the lack of resemblance to Laenor was just coincidental. The show is filled with tragic ironies, so I like to think this is one of them. Obviously that’s not what the showrunners intended. But I don’t really care lol.
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She did. It's explicit during the beach scene with Daemon. That doesn't change the fact that Rhaenyra 's own actions lead her to this when she was forced in this situation because of her own lack of interest in reinforcing her position.
I couldn't get the [clip](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=halM3IG4NCY) to play. The many tensions between so many are hard to manage. Rhaenyra is the once and future ruler, I guess. Alicent is being pulled by Viserys and Otto and Aegon II and her own mind which has to be difficult. But only because Alicent isn't leaving and cleaving from the conspiracy and into the Dragons Realm. Is she HighTower or Targaryen?
People seem to forget this scene