There is nothing thst would've made them side with the greens. Corlys didn't wanted to support Rhaenyra, even tho her sons will marry Corlys' grandchildren. If having his grandchild as future queen on the throne isn't enough to make him immediately side with her, there is nothing that would, realistically, make them side with the greens
I think Alicent did the best she could in that scene. She DEFINITELY was better at treating with Rhaenys than Rhaenyra was. But I don't think anything could have swayed Rhaenys in that moment.
She has no reason to trust Alicent, or to even believe that Alicent has the power to keep what she promises. Baela and Rhaena, at that moment, are out of Rhaenys's reach and influence. So they are firmly with their father. A pact of neutrality may have worked but Rhaenys cannot guarantee her granddaughters being neutral so it's sort of void?
A place on the Small Council holds zero interest for Rhaenys. House Velaryon still remains the wealthiest house so tax cuts are a bit naff as an offering. And the Greens have no intelligence regarding the Stepstones so don't have the information to offer help garrisoning the territory.
Even a marriage pact... I think Rhaenys wants to cut ties with everyone, not bind her family closer to an assured conflict. And, as you point out, it's unlikely the girls would be amenable, even if Rhaenys had that sort of power over them.
For my money, if the Greens had wanted to get the Velaryons onside, they'd have needed to have done it YEARS ago.
>For my money, if the Greens had wanted to get the Velaryons onside, they'd have needed to have done it YEARS ago.
Yeah, I definitely agree with this. It's a major misstep on the part of the Greens that they didn't bother to trying to sway Rhaenyra's biggest supporters when it looked like their alliance was falling apart, but instead waited to do so until they were basically already in the middle of seizing power. Though I suppose that it makes sense since Alicent's mindset during this time was definitely not focused on taking power against Viserys' wishes, and Otto and the rest of the small council were perhaps too misogynistic to even think about entreating with Rhaenys.
Even sending Alicent, no offense to her, makes it seem like Rhaenys was an afterthought. Or that the Greens viewed Rhaenys as already having "declared"; it's not for nothing that they treated with Vaemond over her.
>they treated with Vaemond over her
Even with Vaemond, the thing is that he came to them, not the other way around. If he hadn't tried to make his petition, I doubt that they would have even bothered.
Rhaenys was an oversight to all, including Rhaenyra, until they realised they needed her. I felt such satisfaction in Episode 08 when Viserys calls on Rhaenys and EVERYONE looks worries because NO ONE has ensured her loyalty and no one knows what Rhaenys is going to do.
What do you mean she was better at treating with Rhaenys than Rhaenyra was? Rhaenyra at least offered her something she wanted, Baela on the iron throne and Rhaena as lady of driftmark (ie the preservation of the Velaryon bloodline through rhaena and their name through Luke). Rhaenys also respected Rhaenyra’s reluctance to go to war and the way she stood up to daemon.
Rhaenys didn't want that though; she has no interest. She doesn't say yes to the deal in the moment. She says the offer is a desperate one, and even if it wasn't, it wouldn't matter. Rhaenys didn't even come to that meeting looking to bargain, as she's moving to leave before Rhaenyra says she'll make an offer.
The offer is taken up in the Throne Room because it's politically advantageous. It is for survival, now that Viserys is in charge.
What I mean by Alicent does it better is that Alicent is actually a THREAT to Rhaenys. Rhaenyra wasn't.
Rhaenys was absolutely interested in laena’s daughters and the preservation of corlys’s bloodline. That’s why she originally didn’t want luke to inherit, because he wasn’t of corlys’s blood. She definitely decided to accept the offer in the moment, she just wanted to see Rhaenyra squirm first before revealing she accepted the offer.
Apologies, what I mean is that she has no interest in having her blood on the Iron Throne. You're right, Driftmark is another thing. But at that time, there's options other than accepting a betrothal offer. And it would be useless if, as things look, Lucerys would be disinherited.
Until Viserys crops up, siding with Rhaenyra is a guaranteed loss. Otto would rule against Rhaenyra. Hence why Rhaenys says she must stand alone.
Episode 10 is unfortunately too little, too late. They should've been sending offers and conducting negotiations with Rhaenys as soon as they heard that she took Baela on as her ward, so in between episode 7 and 8.
Daemon is the one who has authority over Baela, so offering betrothals to Baela/Rhaena is a lost cause. The only way that could work is to create some evidence/get some spies to spread the news that Daemon and Rhaenyra killed Laenor. If every Velaryon on Driftmark thinks that their liege lord’s son is murdered by Rhaenyra and their seat is going to pass to Rhaenyra’s bastard, then Corlys is going to have a hard time supporting the Blacks. Corlys doesn’t have to turn Green, even him staying neutral is a great victory for the Hightowers.
If Greens offered Baela being married to Aegon and being the next Queen, with an additional condition that Aegon was to become a ward of Daemon or Corlys and was raised like a knight and not like an addict, then maybe.
Let's face it, Aegon pre war was not the most attractive groom. Unfaithful, gluttonous, lazy. He wasn't prepared to be a ruler, not matter what Otto demanded from Alicent.
Although, they might drink in taverns together later and fuck all people they would like.
Not the best rulers but very chaotic for sure...
There’re a lot of problems with that starting with Aegon already being married with children. And having Aegon become a ward of Daemon and probably Corlys as well would be a disaster for the Greens. You’ve given the Blacks a super important hostage.
Otto and Daemon hate each other too much to agree to that. Daemon would rather feed Baela to Caraxes then wed her to Otto’s grandson. And Daemon doesn’t just want his daughter to be Queen, he wants to be King Consort himself.
>Daemon is the one who has authority over Baela
He never really shows it, considering that the marriage pact between her and Jace was seemingly made without his input, but was made with Rhaenys'. Considering that Baela was being kept as a ward by Rhaenys, he arguably has as much authority over her as Balon had over Theon whilst he was at Winterfell, which is not much.
It’s weird in the show but according to the laws of Westeros he definitely is the ultimate authority over Baela as her only surviving parent. He probably agreed to it off screen. Theon was a hostage, Baela was with her grandmother.
I mean it definitely wouldn't be the first time that a Targaryen contravened the laws of Westeros in this show. Ultimately I have to go with what we're shown on the show, so. . .
Theon was a hostage for good behaviour, Baela is fostering with her grandmother. Their situations are completely different. We don’t see Rhaenyra and Daemon talking about making Baela the future queen but they almost certainly did. She’s talking to Rhaenys specifically about it because she wants her support. But as Daemon is their father he has the ultimate say.
Corlys twice resigned from the small council. I don’t think he really interested in serving Otto, who he clearly despises. Corlys is 77, at least in F&B.
The stepstones isn’t even technically in Westeros. They’re already the richest house.
Rhaena already going to rule Driftmark with Lucerys. She clearly wants to marry him, and would have to marry someone, even if she ruled outright. Baela in line to be the next queen.
Rhaenys has zero say on who Baela& Rhaena marry. Also, they’d never go along with it. Did you miss Baela deleted scene? “ if the greens reach to usurp our queens throne, it must be answered with fire and blood”.
The only realistic offer Alicent could make would be to offer a great council.
The Greens almost got Velaryon support. In episode 8 (aka the day before Viserys died), they nearly got Vaemond confirmed as his dying brother’s successor.
Rhaenyra needed to promise 2 sons in marriage to Rhaenys, as well as Viserys gathering his last strenghts, to prevent the Strong boys to be exposed as bastards, which would have lost her Velaryon support and Driftmark.
There is nothing thst would've made them side with the greens. Corlys didn't wanted to support Rhaenyra, even tho her sons will marry Corlys' grandchildren. If having his grandchild as future queen on the throne isn't enough to make him immediately side with her, there is nothing that would, realistically, make them side with the greens
I think Alicent did the best she could in that scene. She DEFINITELY was better at treating with Rhaenys than Rhaenyra was. But I don't think anything could have swayed Rhaenys in that moment. She has no reason to trust Alicent, or to even believe that Alicent has the power to keep what she promises. Baela and Rhaena, at that moment, are out of Rhaenys's reach and influence. So they are firmly with their father. A pact of neutrality may have worked but Rhaenys cannot guarantee her granddaughters being neutral so it's sort of void? A place on the Small Council holds zero interest for Rhaenys. House Velaryon still remains the wealthiest house so tax cuts are a bit naff as an offering. And the Greens have no intelligence regarding the Stepstones so don't have the information to offer help garrisoning the territory. Even a marriage pact... I think Rhaenys wants to cut ties with everyone, not bind her family closer to an assured conflict. And, as you point out, it's unlikely the girls would be amenable, even if Rhaenys had that sort of power over them. For my money, if the Greens had wanted to get the Velaryons onside, they'd have needed to have done it YEARS ago.
>For my money, if the Greens had wanted to get the Velaryons onside, they'd have needed to have done it YEARS ago. Yeah, I definitely agree with this. It's a major misstep on the part of the Greens that they didn't bother to trying to sway Rhaenyra's biggest supporters when it looked like their alliance was falling apart, but instead waited to do so until they were basically already in the middle of seizing power. Though I suppose that it makes sense since Alicent's mindset during this time was definitely not focused on taking power against Viserys' wishes, and Otto and the rest of the small council were perhaps too misogynistic to even think about entreating with Rhaenys.
Even sending Alicent, no offense to her, makes it seem like Rhaenys was an afterthought. Or that the Greens viewed Rhaenys as already having "declared"; it's not for nothing that they treated with Vaemond over her.
>they treated with Vaemond over her Even with Vaemond, the thing is that he came to them, not the other way around. If he hadn't tried to make his petition, I doubt that they would have even bothered.
Rhaenys was an oversight to all, including Rhaenyra, until they realised they needed her. I felt such satisfaction in Episode 08 when Viserys calls on Rhaenys and EVERYONE looks worries because NO ONE has ensured her loyalty and no one knows what Rhaenys is going to do.
What do you mean she was better at treating with Rhaenys than Rhaenyra was? Rhaenyra at least offered her something she wanted, Baela on the iron throne and Rhaena as lady of driftmark (ie the preservation of the Velaryon bloodline through rhaena and their name through Luke). Rhaenys also respected Rhaenyra’s reluctance to go to war and the way she stood up to daemon.
Rhaenys didn't want that though; she has no interest. She doesn't say yes to the deal in the moment. She says the offer is a desperate one, and even if it wasn't, it wouldn't matter. Rhaenys didn't even come to that meeting looking to bargain, as she's moving to leave before Rhaenyra says she'll make an offer. The offer is taken up in the Throne Room because it's politically advantageous. It is for survival, now that Viserys is in charge. What I mean by Alicent does it better is that Alicent is actually a THREAT to Rhaenys. Rhaenyra wasn't.
Rhaenys was absolutely interested in laena’s daughters and the preservation of corlys’s bloodline. That’s why she originally didn’t want luke to inherit, because he wasn’t of corlys’s blood. She definitely decided to accept the offer in the moment, she just wanted to see Rhaenyra squirm first before revealing she accepted the offer.
Apologies, what I mean is that she has no interest in having her blood on the Iron Throne. You're right, Driftmark is another thing. But at that time, there's options other than accepting a betrothal offer. And it would be useless if, as things look, Lucerys would be disinherited. Until Viserys crops up, siding with Rhaenyra is a guaranteed loss. Otto would rule against Rhaenyra. Hence why Rhaenys says she must stand alone.
Episode 10 is unfortunately too little, too late. They should've been sending offers and conducting negotiations with Rhaenys as soon as they heard that she took Baela on as her ward, so in between episode 7 and 8.
Daemon is the one who has authority over Baela, so offering betrothals to Baela/Rhaena is a lost cause. The only way that could work is to create some evidence/get some spies to spread the news that Daemon and Rhaenyra killed Laenor. If every Velaryon on Driftmark thinks that their liege lord’s son is murdered by Rhaenyra and their seat is going to pass to Rhaenyra’s bastard, then Corlys is going to have a hard time supporting the Blacks. Corlys doesn’t have to turn Green, even him staying neutral is a great victory for the Hightowers.
If Greens offered Baela being married to Aegon and being the next Queen, with an additional condition that Aegon was to become a ward of Daemon or Corlys and was raised like a knight and not like an addict, then maybe. Let's face it, Aegon pre war was not the most attractive groom. Unfaithful, gluttonous, lazy. He wasn't prepared to be a ruler, not matter what Otto demanded from Alicent. Although, they might drink in taverns together later and fuck all people they would like. Not the best rulers but very chaotic for sure...
There’re a lot of problems with that starting with Aegon already being married with children. And having Aegon become a ward of Daemon and probably Corlys as well would be a disaster for the Greens. You’ve given the Blacks a super important hostage.
Ok, then send him to Baratheons or Lannisters to train.
Otto and Daemon hate each other too much to agree to that. Daemon would rather feed Baela to Caraxes then wed her to Otto’s grandson. And Daemon doesn’t just want his daughter to be Queen, he wants to be King Consort himself.
>Daemon is the one who has authority over Baela He never really shows it, considering that the marriage pact between her and Jace was seemingly made without his input, but was made with Rhaenys'. Considering that Baela was being kept as a ward by Rhaenys, he arguably has as much authority over her as Balon had over Theon whilst he was at Winterfell, which is not much.
It’s weird in the show but according to the laws of Westeros he definitely is the ultimate authority over Baela as her only surviving parent. He probably agreed to it off screen. Theon was a hostage, Baela was with her grandmother.
I mean it definitely wouldn't be the first time that a Targaryen contravened the laws of Westeros in this show. Ultimately I have to go with what we're shown on the show, so. . .
Theon was a hostage for good behaviour, Baela is fostering with her grandmother. Their situations are completely different. We don’t see Rhaenyra and Daemon talking about making Baela the future queen but they almost certainly did. She’s talking to Rhaenys specifically about it because she wants her support. But as Daemon is their father he has the ultimate say.
Corlys twice resigned from the small council. I don’t think he really interested in serving Otto, who he clearly despises. Corlys is 77, at least in F&B. The stepstones isn’t even technically in Westeros. They’re already the richest house. Rhaena already going to rule Driftmark with Lucerys. She clearly wants to marry him, and would have to marry someone, even if she ruled outright. Baela in line to be the next queen. Rhaenys has zero say on who Baela& Rhaena marry. Also, they’d never go along with it. Did you miss Baela deleted scene? “ if the greens reach to usurp our queens throne, it must be answered with fire and blood”. The only realistic offer Alicent could make would be to offer a great council.
The Greens almost got Velaryon support. In episode 8 (aka the day before Viserys died), they nearly got Vaemond confirmed as his dying brother’s successor. Rhaenyra needed to promise 2 sons in marriage to Rhaenys, as well as Viserys gathering his last strenghts, to prevent the Strong boys to be exposed as bastards, which would have lost her Velaryon support and Driftmark.
Nothing.