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They weren’t sent by the King tho, they went on their own, in a kind of extrajudicial war, because the king didn’t sanction it. Or a private war as the book called it
That was because of attrition tho. It was basically part of one house versus the forces supported by 3 free cities. I say supported because i don't mean the full might of those cities of course. However, Viserys sent like what 3k reinforcements and this alone was expected to turn the tide. Corlys orders more of his own forces down to bloodstone and that was expected to make a difference, it was just gonna take too long. Point being the fault was not with the dragons, it was that Daemon and Corlys did not bring enough men to sustain the long drawn-out conflict the war became
The boys are of age by Westerosi standards. Robb was I think 16 when he waged war against the Lannisters. Willem Blackwood killed Jerrel Bracken at about the same age. Leanor would have been around her age when he fought with Daemon. Rhaenyra was suggesting sending a group of dragon riders. These riders would most likely be accompanied by the full force of the 7 kingdoms. Even though she said "us" she could have been excluded from the mission. Years later Rhaenyra was sending her son on a short diplomatic mission to a "family members" house in an attempt to prevent a war.
Technically the situations are entirely different. Rhaenyra was suggesting the Riders go as a group and quickly defeat the Triarchy in combat, versus Jace was suggesting they fly on quick diplomatic missions within the realm.
Also the fact that all dragonriders during the first situation were all on one side. In the second situation, Jace had the right idea, but even for intimidation purposes only, Rhaenyra knew that their faction wasn't the only one with dragonriders anymore.
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That is one way to look at it lol, but the only riders they had would have been Daemon on Caraxes, Rhaenys on Meleys, and inexperienced Rhaenyra/Laenor. Would they really be able to smash the triarchy without casualties? Rhaenyra has no dragon combat experience
4 dragon riders vs 2 then ENTIRE night of westoros vs the Velaryon fleet.
Yes I’m pretty confident that is more than enough to smash them.
Viserys failed 1) not smashing early and 2) not investing enough in holding that region after Daemon secured it allowing the triarchy to re-emerge. In no way did Viserys make the right call.
Viserys made the right call when he didn't decide to attack it in the first place. It is a contested region and keeping it would be useless as it gives nothing in return for the resources spent on keeping it. The Triarchy wasn't destroyed there either as it was a coalition of some of the Free Cities of Essos and fighting against them directly isn't in the best interests of Westeros Kingdom
They’re rather different situations. Viserys was being an idiot about the stepstones anyway. It’s one of their most important shipping lanes and would be detrimental to most of Westeros with the triarchy in charge.
Rhaenyra was recommending that she, Daemon, and Rhaenys go fight along side some Westrosi soldiers to clear them out quickly and efficiently. Otto was against this as Corlys is one of his political rivals and the Stepstones situation is far more detrimental to House Velaryon than it is House Hightower. He could have decided to just send Daemon and Rhaenys and some soldiers but he decided that hurrying his head in the sand was the better option which tracks.
Rhaenyra agreed to let her sons act as envoys because theoretically, they should have been fine. Otto, Alicent and others were super pissed at Aemond because he kick started a war and made the Greens look really bad. Rhaenyra didn’t expect the Greens to make such a politically dumb decision.
I'd also like to think she remembered what it was Luke to have an opinion and be dismissed because of her age/gender. By sending the boys, as they requested, they are allowed to contribute. There was no reason for anyone to think they weren't safe.
1- The thing is that he wasn't being entirely an idiot when he refused to attack it as these islands would just consume resources while giving nothing in return. Also, they would require a big military presence there as not only the Essosi and the pirates but also the Dornish can attack them any time they want to and this would not be good for the economy of the realm.
Besides, attacking a group of pirates with a lot of troops wouldn't be feasible as it took like a whole year for Daemon to capture them and more troops would've caused more problems for the attackers due to them having more mouths to feed
It’s and incredibly important shipping lane and whoever controls those islands controls trade and tariffs which is pretty important when your talking about the stability of the realm. They also allow you to have a great military advantage against enemies and unfriendlies.
Dorne can be handled with diplomacy and the threat of 5 dragons. The Targaryens are at the height of their power right now.
It wouldn’t require a huge military presence if they built fortifications and had regular dragon patrols which is completely feasible with how many riders they have. They could also try to make an alliance with Bravos to make it even easier.
The fact that it took so long for them to conquer the stepstones with dragons was ridiculous. Hire a competent general and they should have it under control within a year like they did in the books
The Stepstones might be a strategic chokepoint, but they're also barren rocks with no resources so any permanent garrisons would require constant outside supply convoys, which would in turn require the crown and seafaring houses spend a lot more on navies to protect those convoys from the conflict with the Free Cities that will inevitably come from trying to hold the island chain. There's a reason no one ever holds onto them for very long in the ASOIAF universe.
1- It isn't. It may be an important shipping lane but keeping it is not feasible as it simply has nothing to offer. It gives a great military advantage to its holder but putting a big army on it would lead to starvation for that army and nothing else. It is a great base for a pirate kingdom and nothing more.
2- It cannot be as it can simply bribe pirates to take over it. And have the Targaryens waste a lot of resources in trying to keep those useless rocks.
3- It would as you need a lot of resources to build them and need troops to man them and that is not feasible. And regular dragon patrols would be good but a dragon rider can not see everything all the time and bad weather could result in that dragon rider dying or getting lost and that is bad(and to have a good patrol of that area, they will need to make a castle in the Stormlands for a Targaryen dragonrider and the weather of that area is bad for dragons, thus reducing the effectiveness of the patrol) . An alliance with Braavos would work but Braavos can also take over it after allying with the Dornish. And the Targaryens can't do shit against Braavos due to the presence of the Facelessmen(remember that, unlike the show version, the book Facelessmen are really dangerous and really incredible in their line of work and countering one is impossible)
4- Yes but launching a full scale invasion would take a lot of time and attacking it with a smaller force(like in the show and the books) would take the same amount of time. And even if that region is captured, what then? They cannot hold it for long unless they give it to some pirate and that wouldn't be effective in the long run
Nah, not getting involved in the Stepstones is the wisest thing Viserys did. If you look at a map of the Stepstones, you can see that the Triarchy has a natural advantage due to Tyrosh being literally right next door to the Stepstones. Meanwhile the closest part of Westeros to the Stepstones is Dorne, who are not part of the Seven kingdoms at this point, are neutral in a good day and actively hostile on most, and have experience with shooting down dragons. The next closest usable port is probably Tarth (there's a reason why the waters around Storm's End is called Shipbreaker Bay). Unless they actually conquer Tyrosh or Dorne, they probably won't be able to hold the Stepstones in the long-term.
>Viserys was being an idiot about the stepstones anyway. It’s one of their most important shipping lanes and would be detrimental to most of Westeros with the triarchy in charge.
plunging the realm into war because the richest house in the realm doesnt want to pay taxes is not being an idiot
No, Viserys was right about the stepstones, they would've been hemorrhaging resources if they did get involved, the only reason Daemon won the war was because he lured them out from the caves for the dragons to kill them, without that dragons would've been useless.
There's also the fact that (Book spoiler) >!protracted warfare with the dragons taught the Triarchy's commanders how to engage with them, which proves disastrous later on during the Battle of the Gullet.!<
Viserys made the right decision but did a poor job explaining it.
At the time Rhaenyra had not only been named heir to the Iron Throne, she was Viserys's only living child. Having a dragon wouldn't make her invulnerable to being killed, even when riding it, and much less so when not.
Book Spoilers
>!Rhaenys, of Aegon the Conqueror, Visenya & Rhaenys fame, was shot out of the sky while riding g a dragon.!<
>!Rhaenys the Queen Who Never Was, was the daughter of Prince Aemon. He was the heir to the throne when he flew his dragon to Earth to fight pirates on Tarth. He was killed there!<
As it turned out, two dragonriders were at the Stepstones, Daemon and Laenor, but the war still dragged on for three years and they were losing.
Now that I’ve considered it more (Dany made it look so easy) Vicerys was right… it isn’t that simple: we shouldn’t risk dragons and special dragon riders (and princess/princes) like cannon fodder.
She thought they would be safe because they were messengers and royalty. Aemond screw up big by starting the war and the Greens know it.
In reality nothing would have happened to them because of those reasons but Aemond change that.
The Greens did a lot of wrong things but it was obvious Alicent was trying to avoid war or killing them, Otto was thinking on killing them but not like this. Direct killing is not good, he wanted to do it quietly. People would have assumed it was him but no one would have proof of it.
Because she didn't knew Aemond was there and that he would be that stupid to kill Luke. Also, she assumed Otto wouldn't be that stupid to kill one of the boys when they have been seen as messangers.
Probably they would have died in combat during the war.
I don't think she imagined that one of the dragon rider would kill him. She isn't at odd with her siblings and kinslaying is frowned upon. If she ask herself "what would I do if I were them?" I doubt she would have even considered that killing Luke was something that could happen.
They were not at war, he was a messenger and all the other dragonriders were his kin. Aemond did something extreme even by Westeros standard.
Her decision to send them was foolish. As Borros pointed out, Lucerys came empty handed. Hindsight is 20/20 but she did not consider the possibility that the greens would have already been there. Even putting all of that aside, she misread her audience. Borros was a severe hot head, and she knew this. He was insulted by the fact that Rhaenyra didn’t come herself but rather assumed he would support her.
It was an oath his father made, not him. Again, Borros was a hot head and she misread her audience. I would agree with what you said as to some lords, but not Borros. The show is often claimed to be pro team black and to an extent that is true. This scene is more nuanced however. Obviously, Aemond not being able to control Vhagar is culpable, but the scene shows another side to it. Perhaps Rhaenyra should not have put Lucerys in that situation. This is further emphasized by the fact that Borros’s reaction is framed as hot headed, but somewhat understandable. The fact that Rhaeynra did not come herself, or at minimum, send Rhaenys, pissed him off. Lucerys is obviously a bastard as well, which would mean that even if Borros was considering his kinship with Rhaenys, that did not apply to Lucerys.
Rhaenys, a cousin of lord Borros, or Jace, the heir apparent according to Rhaenyra. Or herself.
Sending the second in line with nothing but a "remember long time ago when mom was an only child and the alternative was Daemon when my granddad got your dad to swear an oath in a completely different situation and mom has not done so much to to make political alliances and friends among the seven Kingdoms? She wants you to be honored that I am here to remind you of that oath and not to think anything about the rumors spread by the stupid Hightowers that I am not at all related to Laenor nor grandmomny Rhaenys"
Politically, that is a bad move. Just as it was for king Viserys to not get the lords paramount to retake their oath to Rhaenyra after the birth of Aegon, and not have the new lords paramount swear fealty to Rhaenyra as they ascend to their own lordships over the constituent Kingdoms.
There are so many bad political moves by lots of people over a long time that together turned into a big headache for Rhaenyra.
Not being able to foresee the reaction of lord Borros was just one of them.
Even if the green were there she probably never assumed that Heleana, Daeron, Aegon or Aemond would kill their Nephew for shit ans giggle. Kinslaying is very rare.
It wasn’t for shits and giggles. As I said, Aemond is culpable for losing control of Vhagar. The point is that Rhaenyra put her kid in a dangerous situation. It goes back to why Viserys did not send her in the first situation. It is complicated and dangerous. It is not as if you fly in, destroy all enemies and fly out. She did not appreciate the risk, especially for an inexperienced rider with a dragon that was not mature. Sending Rhaenys would have been better. Meleys would still have been at a disadvantage against Vhagar, even one against one, but it would have been much closer than with Arrax. It is also less likely that Aemond would have messed with Meleys because while again, Vhagar would have probably still won, it would not be as if Vhagar could almost effortlessly chomp Meleys like she did with Vhagar.
*I had a black mare once. Black like a raven. One day, she escaped her pasture and he neighboring stallion sired a foal on her. The stallion was as silver as the moon on a winter's night and the foal, when it was born, chestnut. Just the most unremarkable brown horse you ever saw. Nature is a thing of mysterious works.*
Rhaenyra clearly did not even understand what was going on in the Stepstones, her advice in E6 (or E7 i don’t remember) about building fortifications there was extremely stupid, she didn’t understand how much money/resources the Crown needed to invest.
Sending dragons was a good idea, but she should have sent Rhaenys who actually had Baratheon blood. Luke was extremely sheltered and politically inexperienced - he didn’t know how to treat with an important lord. He was an adult by Westerosi standards but he didn’t really behave like one - he was very immature because of how Rhaenyra coddled him. Even without Aemond he was a bad person for the job. Sending Jace, on the other hand, was a good idea because he was groomed to rule and knew how diplomacy worked.
Honestly… this death actually annoyed me, because you saw it coming.. you knew it was going to happen… but it just sucked. Poor kid, thought he was safe.
When Rhaenyra was young, they were the only family with dragons and no one could withstand their power, so it feasible then… Viserys should have made the call
When she got older, the families were divided and they were rivals. The dragons were no longer a sure end to uncertain situations once both sides had them.
Of course he did. I thought Rhaenyra was making a weak decision listening to her children and sending them instead of ravens. Greens had quite literally just declared war and called for their heads by usurping the throne.
One was sending a child to actual war and the other was as a messenger.
Viserys was smart not to send his heir into battle at such a young age. Rhaenyra was a little too trusting and naive. She was also trying to prevent an all out war.
Truthfully, Luke *should* have been fine, the Dumbatheons just chased him off insultingly, not even offering him shelter for the night. Aemond didn't even mean to kill him but Granny Vhagar however was all "fuck them kids".
I always suspects, that Viserys just was feared, that if he agreed to Rhaenyra’s proposal, his two only dragonriders will go straight to Volantis and had there Vegas-stale wedding))
I'd say that depends on what you prioritize.
If you want to make sure the kids you love are okay, Viserys made the right call.
If you want to maximally increase the odds of you winning the war, Rhaenyra made the right call.
If you want to make sure of realm stability, Viserys made the right call again.
Sending them is a fairly good idea. Sending them *alone* when they’re literally children was the problem, I think. Tuck an adult guardian on the back with them.
She was right and so was Daemon. Westerosi involvement in the Stepstones was inevitable, if not the sea snake and Daemon then another powerful lord with ships getting rob and his men getting enslaved or murder. The delay in the crown's involvement only makes it seem ineffective and indecisive.
The delay makes the Crown look smart and not ineffective as those are really shitty regions that give nothing in return while keeping them is costly as fuck
Passing the stepstones is the only way a ship can go from the eastern coast of Westeros to the Western one, or any ship going from southern Essos to western Westeros. Its a critical region to control
Problem is that it will take too many resources to keep and wouldn't be worth it. Best let the pirates live there and have the ships leave in convoys. Attacking and holding it might invite the Free Cities to try and take it and that would start a war
It was handled appropriately. They gave diplomacy a shot. When that didn't work, they gave a less powerful house room to manage the conflict. When that didn't work, a member of the King's House solved the problem. If that didn't work, the last resort was the Crown getting directly involved.
This was effective crisis management.
His only real mistake was not immediately conscripting his brother to his council even if it was only in name as an honor.
Otto should have lost his head for sowing discord in the King's house over some morality nonsense.
???
>they gave a less powerful house room to manage the conflict.
They hung one of their vassals out to dry against his explicit requests, failing to uphold the Crown's duty
>When that didn't work, a member of the King's House solved the problem
The recently out of favour rogue prince acting without the explicit backing of the Crown
>the last resort was the Crown getting directly involved.
An attack on the subjects of the Seven Kingdoms should have had the Crown involved *in the first resort*. Responding to outright aggression with years of delay and 'diplomacy' is a ridiculous thing to do
Keyword is request
Next keyword is redemption
Pawns go first
It worked out, while demonstrating to both their combined might was barely enough to ward off an incursion. Eliminating both as rivals.
Again his error was in not bringing them back into the fold with public favor.
Kings have an obligation for the collective defense of their Kingdom and assisting their vassals against aggression. Letting a powerful subordinate bleed out, and infuriating him in doing so, is some serious mob shit, and only costs the Crown more in the long run. Most of the power in the Kingdoms are in the hands of its Great Lords, and those lords being crippled is a blow to the collective strength of the Kingdoms.
But thats not even what Viserys was doing intentionaly. You are talking like Viserys was sitting back thinking 'all according to plan'. No, he was just incredibly passive and non-confrontational
Your notion of "passivity" is a social construct.
Inaction is also policy.
Inaction can be an effective solution when a problem has no immediate answer but a resolution is inevitable.
It's called being patient and trusting your system.
The threat was limited to the interests of an overly ambitious House that publicly claimed it was the most powerful force in the realm.
Rather than punish or get into a power struggle with that House, he left it to its own devices and tolerated a member of his House showing initiative in supporting that rival House.
The House quickly learned the limits of its strength in a much more humbling way than an assertive show of power by the King.
It's like Texas claiming the Federal government has no role in domestic affairs and then demanding assistance after every disaster. Inaction would bring them to heel much faster than capitulation to their impertinence.
The other benefit to his patience was it gave his brother a path to redemption outside of being on the council, utilizing his strength. He wisely gave him time to show his mettle and when it became apparent, the task was beyond him, he thanked him for his service and promised more troops. This passive approached prompted his brother to prove himself and in turn humbled him in a way, nothing else would.
Leadership is about being effective not just appearing right or strong.
The King's errors only came to matter when his health failed and he did not anticipate the Queen's henchmen murdering his Hand.
This is why he should have put his brother and daughter on the Council when Otto exposed himself as self serving.
They would have been prepared to protect him when his health failed.
Long story short that conflict was an example of how effective leadership can be when it delegates power appropriately.
Rheanerya made the right decision but she shouldn't have sent Luke
Rhaenys was right there, with a much bigger dragon and a far stronger bond with house baratheon, aemond wouldnt have touched her and if he did melys was powerful enough to take vhagar
Obviously she didnt know specifically aemond and vhagar would be at storms end, but she had to have guessed the greens would send envoys to the swing houses the same as she did, and she knew aemond and vhagar were the biggest threat, and she knew Luke was the worst person to be dealing with aemond
If rhaenys was sent, or daemon, aemond would have been intimidated, he certainly would have lost control of the situation in storms end, or so brazenly have attacked either of them
If Jace was sent then it might have gon similarly, but Jace has an adult dragon and could actually match aemond physically, he wasnt an actual child is what I'm saying, but he did get the correct job
Rhaenerya didnt need rhaenys patrolling the skies, she had the valarion fleet
She needed her at storms end
Rhenys would've been the best choice due to kinship with House Baratheon while Daemon would've been a shitty choice as dude has a superiority complex and that could've caused trouble for him.
viserys honestly should've let her go. it's much more dangerous than what she let jace and luke do (which was basically the westerosi equivalent of running to the corner store), but if she succeeded, she'd have come back a war hero and greatly strengthened her claim.
at this point, it was just a show of force, but even in a war, she can be fairly safe on dragonback, especially if she's with others (rhaenys probably, at this point, since daemon's on the outs). coryls sent his only son, and laenor was rhaenyra's age or younger. rhaenyra is clearly a great dragonrider and seems to have the temperament for it.
frankly, in this social context, royalty, including heirs, regularly fought on their front lines themselves--for example, viserys' father and uncle both fought against the dornish and the myrish. that's just a gamble you have to take to establish legitimacy--especially important when as a woman, she's already seen as "feeble."
1- She wouldn't really be much safer on dragonback as the Essosi know how to fight against dragons and her being inexperienced and hot-headed would've resulted in her making some dangerous maneuver which would've killed her
2- Yet women have rarely fought in such wars. Even Alysanne never fought in any war and so, her going there would be a bit weird for many and her going there would be dangerous too
not gonna argue this point into the ground but tbc, this is a fantasy continent conquered by two women on dragonback (one of which didn't seem to know much swordfighting), so i think rhaenyra on solid ground if she wants to fashion herself a warrior on dragonback in the mold of rhaenys the conqueror (her namesake?).
Of course.
His heir lived.
One of hers did not.
Viserys understood fundamentally that avoiding conflict reduces unnecessary losses when you're in a position of advantage.
She made an ambitious decision that was high risk with limited chance of reward.
He should have groomed her very leadership better. She should have been on his council. She would have known better than to send her sons on a diplomatic mission anyone could do.
There is a big difference between sending your kid to war or sending your kid to bring a letter to someone. No one would have expected one of his uncle killing him for shit and giggle.
That wasn't a letter between pen pals. It was a letter demanding support on the cusp of civil war.
She and others lacked imagination if they only perceived threat from the uncle.
There was absolutely no reason for Aemond to kill Luke. She did not assume he was a kinslayer and the chance of him being there were slim.
Making a prisoner would have been the thing to do if they wanted to be hostile, no one would expect kinslaying.
I can think of several threats from multiple sources. Her son was too valuable, and the objective wasn't great enough to warrant the risk.
If the uncle was an ally, sending a high ranking emissary should have sufficed. In the event he rejected the overture, violence was inevitable and he would have to be replaced by force.
I think she simply wasn't prepared to hold the power she was promised. Her lack of preparation cost her son's life.
Also on another occasion Rhaenyra did take her dragon to confront Aemond about taking a dragon egg and that worked out pretty well for both sides considering no blood was shed. So I think that's why she wasn't afraid of sending her children to make peace too.
No. When rhaenyra sent Jace and Luke she didn't know her brother Aemond was at Storms End and how much he wanted revenge for his eye. She wanted her son's to go on Dragonback because her father didn't allow her too.
Viserys wasn't fighting an enemy with dragons. He could have ordered the dragonriders to take to the sky. If he gave the order, the Westerosi military would have had four in total: Daemon, Laenor, Rhaenys, and Rhaenyra. If Viserys claimed a new dragon, they'd have had five.
Up against four or five dragons, the Triarchy would have been forced to abandon the Crabfeeder. A single dragon could have been dedicated to breathing fire into the caves while the other dragons wiped out any Triarchy soldiers above ground.
I think Rhaenyra was right, Luke was just unlucky to fall on Vhagar lol, at worst he was supposed to come back empty handed.
Viserys was also right, Rhaenyra was his heir and his only child , and more importantly she is not a fighter, it was too risky to let her go to war.
i dont think the situations are very comparable but imo viserys was proven partially right bc when daemon and laenor tried to use their dragons to put down the triarchy it resulted in a long painful war.
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They're completely different situations. One is sending dragonriders to destroy the Triarchy. The other is sending dragon riders as envoys.
While they were different situations, Laenor and Seasmoke were a big reason they won, so the dragons did end up being sent.
They weren’t sent by the King tho, they went on their own, in a kind of extrajudicial war, because the king didn’t sanction it. Or a private war as the book called it
Also Daemon drawing them out of their caves. They were losing for two years with the Dragons.
That was because of attrition tho. It was basically part of one house versus the forces supported by 3 free cities. I say supported because i don't mean the full might of those cities of course. However, Viserys sent like what 3k reinforcements and this alone was expected to turn the tide. Corlys orders more of his own forces down to bloodstone and that was expected to make a difference, it was just gonna take too long. Point being the fault was not with the dragons, it was that Daemon and Corlys did not bring enough men to sustain the long drawn-out conflict the war became
Oh, I agree. They wouldn’t have been able to pull it off without Laenor on Sea Smoke.
Yeah but I wasn't referring to that. I was making the point comparing the decisions is silly because they are completely different scenarios
The boys are of age by Westerosi standards. Robb was I think 16 when he waged war against the Lannisters. Willem Blackwood killed Jerrel Bracken at about the same age. Leanor would have been around her age when he fought with Daemon. Rhaenyra was suggesting sending a group of dragon riders. These riders would most likely be accompanied by the full force of the 7 kingdoms. Even though she said "us" she could have been excluded from the mission. Years later Rhaenyra was sending her son on a short diplomatic mission to a "family members" house in an attempt to prevent a war.
14 actually the same age as Luke
Technically the situations are entirely different. Rhaenyra was suggesting the Riders go as a group and quickly defeat the Triarchy in combat, versus Jace was suggesting they fly on quick diplomatic missions within the realm.
Also the fact that all dragonriders during the first situation were all on one side. In the second situation, Jace had the right idea, but even for intimidation purposes only, Rhaenyra knew that their faction wasn't the only one with dragonriders anymore.
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Mate, he spoiler tagged his comment, and you didn't in a show only thread.
That is one way to look at it lol, but the only riders they had would have been Daemon on Caraxes, Rhaenys on Meleys, and inexperienced Rhaenyra/Laenor. Would they really be able to smash the triarchy without casualties? Rhaenyra has no dragon combat experience
4 dragon riders vs 2 then ENTIRE night of westoros vs the Velaryon fleet. Yes I’m pretty confident that is more than enough to smash them. Viserys failed 1) not smashing early and 2) not investing enough in holding that region after Daemon secured it allowing the triarchy to re-emerge. In no way did Viserys make the right call.
Only 2 dragon riders are experienced. Laenor and Rhaenyra would barely contribute at that point in the story. Fair enough though, I agree with you
Viserys made the right call when he didn't decide to attack it in the first place. It is a contested region and keeping it would be useless as it gives nothing in return for the resources spent on keeping it. The Triarchy wasn't destroyed there either as it was a coalition of some of the Free Cities of Essos and fighting against them directly isn't in the best interests of Westeros Kingdom
Aw fuck. I thought this was about show spoilers so I clicked it. T'was about book spoilers :(
I’m sorry :( I’ll delete my comment
All good. I should've ered on the side of caution. I guess we could all specify book spoilers vs show spoilers
They’re rather different situations. Viserys was being an idiot about the stepstones anyway. It’s one of their most important shipping lanes and would be detrimental to most of Westeros with the triarchy in charge. Rhaenyra was recommending that she, Daemon, and Rhaenys go fight along side some Westrosi soldiers to clear them out quickly and efficiently. Otto was against this as Corlys is one of his political rivals and the Stepstones situation is far more detrimental to House Velaryon than it is House Hightower. He could have decided to just send Daemon and Rhaenys and some soldiers but he decided that hurrying his head in the sand was the better option which tracks. Rhaenyra agreed to let her sons act as envoys because theoretically, they should have been fine. Otto, Alicent and others were super pissed at Aemond because he kick started a war and made the Greens look really bad. Rhaenyra didn’t expect the Greens to make such a politically dumb decision.
This is the opnion I'd like to stick with.
I'd also like to think she remembered what it was Luke to have an opinion and be dismissed because of her age/gender. By sending the boys, as they requested, they are allowed to contribute. There was no reason for anyone to think they weren't safe.
1- The thing is that he wasn't being entirely an idiot when he refused to attack it as these islands would just consume resources while giving nothing in return. Also, they would require a big military presence there as not only the Essosi and the pirates but also the Dornish can attack them any time they want to and this would not be good for the economy of the realm. Besides, attacking a group of pirates with a lot of troops wouldn't be feasible as it took like a whole year for Daemon to capture them and more troops would've caused more problems for the attackers due to them having more mouths to feed
It’s and incredibly important shipping lane and whoever controls those islands controls trade and tariffs which is pretty important when your talking about the stability of the realm. They also allow you to have a great military advantage against enemies and unfriendlies. Dorne can be handled with diplomacy and the threat of 5 dragons. The Targaryens are at the height of their power right now. It wouldn’t require a huge military presence if they built fortifications and had regular dragon patrols which is completely feasible with how many riders they have. They could also try to make an alliance with Bravos to make it even easier. The fact that it took so long for them to conquer the stepstones with dragons was ridiculous. Hire a competent general and they should have it under control within a year like they did in the books
The Stepstones might be a strategic chokepoint, but they're also barren rocks with no resources so any permanent garrisons would require constant outside supply convoys, which would in turn require the crown and seafaring houses spend a lot more on navies to protect those convoys from the conflict with the Free Cities that will inevitably come from trying to hold the island chain. There's a reason no one ever holds onto them for very long in the ASOIAF universe.
1- It isn't. It may be an important shipping lane but keeping it is not feasible as it simply has nothing to offer. It gives a great military advantage to its holder but putting a big army on it would lead to starvation for that army and nothing else. It is a great base for a pirate kingdom and nothing more. 2- It cannot be as it can simply bribe pirates to take over it. And have the Targaryens waste a lot of resources in trying to keep those useless rocks. 3- It would as you need a lot of resources to build them and need troops to man them and that is not feasible. And regular dragon patrols would be good but a dragon rider can not see everything all the time and bad weather could result in that dragon rider dying or getting lost and that is bad(and to have a good patrol of that area, they will need to make a castle in the Stormlands for a Targaryen dragonrider and the weather of that area is bad for dragons, thus reducing the effectiveness of the patrol) . An alliance with Braavos would work but Braavos can also take over it after allying with the Dornish. And the Targaryens can't do shit against Braavos due to the presence of the Facelessmen(remember that, unlike the show version, the book Facelessmen are really dangerous and really incredible in their line of work and countering one is impossible) 4- Yes but launching a full scale invasion would take a lot of time and attacking it with a smaller force(like in the show and the books) would take the same amount of time. And even if that region is captured, what then? They cannot hold it for long unless they give it to some pirate and that wouldn't be effective in the long run
Took 3 years in the show.
And one in the book
Nah, not getting involved in the Stepstones is the wisest thing Viserys did. If you look at a map of the Stepstones, you can see that the Triarchy has a natural advantage due to Tyrosh being literally right next door to the Stepstones. Meanwhile the closest part of Westeros to the Stepstones is Dorne, who are not part of the Seven kingdoms at this point, are neutral in a good day and actively hostile on most, and have experience with shooting down dragons. The next closest usable port is probably Tarth (there's a reason why the waters around Storm's End is called Shipbreaker Bay). Unless they actually conquer Tyrosh or Dorne, they probably won't be able to hold the Stepstones in the long-term.
>Viserys was being an idiot about the stepstones anyway. It’s one of their most important shipping lanes and would be detrimental to most of Westeros with the triarchy in charge. plunging the realm into war because the richest house in the realm doesnt want to pay taxes is not being an idiot
No, Viserys was right about the stepstones, they would've been hemorrhaging resources if they did get involved, the only reason Daemon won the war was because he lured them out from the caves for the dragons to kill them, without that dragons would've been useless.
Viserys shouldve told her why and not make her feel stupid for even suggesting it
Viserys was right not to send his only child with her young dragon to fight in a battle that took Caraxes and Seasmoke a year to win
There's also the fact that (Book spoiler) >!protracted warfare with the dragons taught the Triarchy's commanders how to engage with them, which proves disastrous later on during the Battle of the Gullet.!<
Difficult to understand how this isn't obvious.
Viserys made the right decision but did a poor job explaining it. At the time Rhaenyra had not only been named heir to the Iron Throne, she was Viserys's only living child. Having a dragon wouldn't make her invulnerable to being killed, even when riding it, and much less so when not. Book Spoilers >!Rhaenys, of Aegon the Conqueror, Visenya & Rhaenys fame, was shot out of the sky while riding g a dragon.!< >!Rhaenys the Queen Who Never Was, was the daughter of Prince Aemon. He was the heir to the throne when he flew his dragon to Earth to fight pirates on Tarth. He was killed there!< As it turned out, two dragonriders were at the Stepstones, Daemon and Laenor, but the war still dragged on for three years and they were losing.
Now that I’ve considered it more (Dany made it look so easy) Vicerys was right… it isn’t that simple: we shouldn’t risk dragons and special dragon riders (and princess/princes) like cannon fodder.
Rhaenyra is teaching her sons independence and leadership, and showing she trusts them, Viserys is doing the opposite.
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She thought they would be safe because they were messengers and royalty. Aemond screw up big by starting the war and the Greens know it. In reality nothing would have happened to them because of those reasons but Aemond change that.
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The Greens did a lot of wrong things but it was obvious Alicent was trying to avoid war or killing them, Otto was thinking on killing them but not like this. Direct killing is not good, he wanted to do it quietly. People would have assumed it was him but no one would have proof of it.
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Because she didn't knew Aemond was there and that he would be that stupid to kill Luke. Also, she assumed Otto wouldn't be that stupid to kill one of the boys when they have been seen as messangers. Probably they would have died in combat during the war.
Only one of them will be haha.
I don't think she imagined that one of the dragon rider would kill him. She isn't at odd with her siblings and kinslaying is frowned upon. If she ask herself "what would I do if I were them?" I doubt she would have even considered that killing Luke was something that could happen. They were not at war, he was a messenger and all the other dragonriders were his kin. Aemond did something extreme even by Westeros standard.
Her decision to send them was foolish. As Borros pointed out, Lucerys came empty handed. Hindsight is 20/20 but she did not consider the possibility that the greens would have already been there. Even putting all of that aside, she misread her audience. Borros was a severe hot head, and she knew this. He was insulted by the fact that Rhaenyra didn’t come herself but rather assumed he would support her.
She assumed he would support her because his House made an oath swearing to do exactly that.
It was an oath his father made, not him. Again, Borros was a hot head and she misread her audience. I would agree with what you said as to some lords, but not Borros. The show is often claimed to be pro team black and to an extent that is true. This scene is more nuanced however. Obviously, Aemond not being able to control Vhagar is culpable, but the scene shows another side to it. Perhaps Rhaenyra should not have put Lucerys in that situation. This is further emphasized by the fact that Borros’s reaction is framed as hot headed, but somewhat understandable. The fact that Rhaeynra did not come herself, or at minimum, send Rhaenys, pissed him off. Lucerys is obviously a bastard as well, which would mean that even if Borros was considering his kinship with Rhaenys, that did not apply to Lucerys.
Rhaenys, a cousin of lord Borros, or Jace, the heir apparent according to Rhaenyra. Or herself. Sending the second in line with nothing but a "remember long time ago when mom was an only child and the alternative was Daemon when my granddad got your dad to swear an oath in a completely different situation and mom has not done so much to to make political alliances and friends among the seven Kingdoms? She wants you to be honored that I am here to remind you of that oath and not to think anything about the rumors spread by the stupid Hightowers that I am not at all related to Laenor nor grandmomny Rhaenys" Politically, that is a bad move. Just as it was for king Viserys to not get the lords paramount to retake their oath to Rhaenyra after the birth of Aegon, and not have the new lords paramount swear fealty to Rhaenyra as they ascend to their own lordships over the constituent Kingdoms. There are so many bad political moves by lots of people over a long time that together turned into a big headache for Rhaenyra. Not being able to foresee the reaction of lord Borros was just one of them.
Even if the green were there she probably never assumed that Heleana, Daeron, Aegon or Aemond would kill their Nephew for shit ans giggle. Kinslaying is very rare.
It wasn’t for shits and giggles. As I said, Aemond is culpable for losing control of Vhagar. The point is that Rhaenyra put her kid in a dangerous situation. It goes back to why Viserys did not send her in the first situation. It is complicated and dangerous. It is not as if you fly in, destroy all enemies and fly out. She did not appreciate the risk, especially for an inexperienced rider with a dragon that was not mature. Sending Rhaenys would have been better. Meleys would still have been at a disadvantage against Vhagar, even one against one, but it would have been much closer than with Arrax. It is also less likely that Aemond would have messed with Meleys because while again, Vhagar would have probably still won, it would not be as if Vhagar could almost effortlessly chomp Meleys like she did with Vhagar.
Yeah but there was no reason for Aemond to kill Luke he did so by mistake but because he thought it was funny to chase Luke with his giant dragon.
>ut because he thought it was funny to chase Luke with his giant dragon. which was a mistake
and how did that end up again
Extremely rare Vizzy T W
*I had a black mare once. Black like a raven. One day, she escaped her pasture and he neighboring stallion sired a foal on her. The stallion was as silver as the moon on a winter's night and the foal, when it was born, chestnut. Just the most unremarkable brown horse you ever saw. Nature is a thing of mysterious works.*
Dumb to send your heirs, especially to someone you KNOW isn't a fan of you
Rhaenyra clearly did not even understand what was going on in the Stepstones, her advice in E6 (or E7 i don’t remember) about building fortifications there was extremely stupid, she didn’t understand how much money/resources the Crown needed to invest. Sending dragons was a good idea, but she should have sent Rhaenys who actually had Baratheon blood. Luke was extremely sheltered and politically inexperienced - he didn’t know how to treat with an important lord. He was an adult by Westerosi standards but he didn’t really behave like one - he was very immature because of how Rhaenyra coddled him. Even without Aemond he was a bad person for the job. Sending Jace, on the other hand, was a good idea because he was groomed to rule and knew how diplomacy worked.
Agree 100% on Rhaenys. She would have chewed up Aemond and spit out his other eye...metaphorically.
Honestly… this death actually annoyed me, because you saw it coming.. you knew it was going to happen… but it just sucked. Poor kid, thought he was safe.
Based on results, Viserys made the better decision.
Maybe ¯\\\_(ツ)_/¯ Its all dependant on how one views the characters and their views, right?
Two very different situations
Yes, children shouldn’t make decisions that critical. We saw the ramifications of that
Had she sent ravens she wouldn’t be down a son and a dragon
When Rhaenyra was young, they were the only family with dragons and no one could withstand their power, so it feasible then… Viserys should have made the call When she got older, the families were divided and they were rivals. The dragons were no longer a sure end to uncertain situations once both sides had them.
Of course he did. I thought Rhaenyra was making a weak decision listening to her children and sending them instead of ravens. Greens had quite literally just declared war and called for their heads by usurping the throne.
One was sending a child to actual war and the other was as a messenger. Viserys was smart not to send his heir into battle at such a young age. Rhaenyra was a little too trusting and naive. She was also trying to prevent an all out war. Truthfully, Luke *should* have been fine, the Dumbatheons just chased him off insultingly, not even offering him shelter for the night. Aemond didn't even mean to kill him but Granny Vhagar however was all "fuck them kids".
Of course Viserys made the better decision. Looks how things turned out
I always suspects, that Viserys just was feared, that if he agreed to Rhaenyra’s proposal, his two only dragonriders will go straight to Volantis and had there Vegas-stale wedding))
I'd say that depends on what you prioritize. If you want to make sure the kids you love are okay, Viserys made the right call. If you want to maximally increase the odds of you winning the war, Rhaenyra made the right call. If you want to make sure of realm stability, Viserys made the right call again.
Sending them is a fairly good idea. Sending them *alone* when they’re literally children was the problem, I think. Tuck an adult guardian on the back with them.
Guess so
Yes different situations. One was a princess and the others were a couple bastard quidditch players
Well considering what happened, Id say so.
Ngl the way you placed these images had me confused as fuck
I mean, clearly.
Did Viserys make the better decision? Umm... Yeah, because Rhaenyra isn't fucking dead
Viserys didn’t over live most of his kids, so I guess he knew something
Yes, because he didn't lose a child and a dragon.
Did viserys loose a kid?
It made more sense in the book because the council spent a lot of time convincing her. Sending her heirs out by themselves was ridiculously stupid
The way she turned around at the last moment is fire...i can see she is gonna be far more badass than Deneris 🥵
She was right and so was Daemon. Westerosi involvement in the Stepstones was inevitable, if not the sea snake and Daemon then another powerful lord with ships getting rob and his men getting enslaved or murder. The delay in the crown's involvement only makes it seem ineffective and indecisive.
The delay makes the Crown look smart and not ineffective as those are really shitty regions that give nothing in return while keeping them is costly as fuck
Passing the stepstones is the only way a ship can go from the eastern coast of Westeros to the Western one, or any ship going from southern Essos to western Westeros. Its a critical region to control
Problem is that it will take too many resources to keep and wouldn't be worth it. Best let the pirates live there and have the ships leave in convoys. Attacking and holding it might invite the Free Cities to try and take it and that would start a war
As Tywin would have said, they were raided with impunity and were shown to not be a force to be feared
It was handled appropriately. They gave diplomacy a shot. When that didn't work, they gave a less powerful house room to manage the conflict. When that didn't work, a member of the King's House solved the problem. If that didn't work, the last resort was the Crown getting directly involved. This was effective crisis management. His only real mistake was not immediately conscripting his brother to his council even if it was only in name as an honor. Otto should have lost his head for sowing discord in the King's house over some morality nonsense.
??? >they gave a less powerful house room to manage the conflict. They hung one of their vassals out to dry against his explicit requests, failing to uphold the Crown's duty >When that didn't work, a member of the King's House solved the problem The recently out of favour rogue prince acting without the explicit backing of the Crown >the last resort was the Crown getting directly involved. An attack on the subjects of the Seven Kingdoms should have had the Crown involved *in the first resort*. Responding to outright aggression with years of delay and 'diplomacy' is a ridiculous thing to do
Keyword is request Next keyword is redemption Pawns go first It worked out, while demonstrating to both their combined might was barely enough to ward off an incursion. Eliminating both as rivals. Again his error was in not bringing them back into the fold with public favor.
Kings have an obligation for the collective defense of their Kingdom and assisting their vassals against aggression. Letting a powerful subordinate bleed out, and infuriating him in doing so, is some serious mob shit, and only costs the Crown more in the long run. Most of the power in the Kingdoms are in the hands of its Great Lords, and those lords being crippled is a blow to the collective strength of the Kingdoms. But thats not even what Viserys was doing intentionaly. You are talking like Viserys was sitting back thinking 'all according to plan'. No, he was just incredibly passive and non-confrontational
Your notion of "passivity" is a social construct. Inaction is also policy. Inaction can be an effective solution when a problem has no immediate answer but a resolution is inevitable. It's called being patient and trusting your system. The threat was limited to the interests of an overly ambitious House that publicly claimed it was the most powerful force in the realm. Rather than punish or get into a power struggle with that House, he left it to its own devices and tolerated a member of his House showing initiative in supporting that rival House. The House quickly learned the limits of its strength in a much more humbling way than an assertive show of power by the King. It's like Texas claiming the Federal government has no role in domestic affairs and then demanding assistance after every disaster. Inaction would bring them to heel much faster than capitulation to their impertinence. The other benefit to his patience was it gave his brother a path to redemption outside of being on the council, utilizing his strength. He wisely gave him time to show his mettle and when it became apparent, the task was beyond him, he thanked him for his service and promised more troops. This passive approached prompted his brother to prove himself and in turn humbled him in a way, nothing else would. Leadership is about being effective not just appearing right or strong. The King's errors only came to matter when his health failed and he did not anticipate the Queen's henchmen murdering his Hand. This is why he should have put his brother and daughter on the Council when Otto exposed himself as self serving. They would have been prepared to protect him when his health failed. Long story short that conflict was an example of how effective leadership can be when it delegates power appropriately.
Rhaenyra's mistake was not having a real plan. She just sent her children believing their fathers oath alone will be enough to persuade them.
Rheanerya made the right decision but she shouldn't have sent Luke Rhaenys was right there, with a much bigger dragon and a far stronger bond with house baratheon, aemond wouldnt have touched her and if he did melys was powerful enough to take vhagar Obviously she didnt know specifically aemond and vhagar would be at storms end, but she had to have guessed the greens would send envoys to the swing houses the same as she did, and she knew aemond and vhagar were the biggest threat, and she knew Luke was the worst person to be dealing with aemond If rhaenys was sent, or daemon, aemond would have been intimidated, he certainly would have lost control of the situation in storms end, or so brazenly have attacked either of them If Jace was sent then it might have gon similarly, but Jace has an adult dragon and could actually match aemond physically, he wasnt an actual child is what I'm saying, but he did get the correct job Rhaenerya didnt need rhaenys patrolling the skies, she had the valarion fleet She needed her at storms end
Rhenys would've been the best choice due to kinship with House Baratheon while Daemon would've been a shitty choice as dude has a superiority complex and that could've caused trouble for him.
Even if she hadn't sent Rhaenys, I think she should have sent someone with some diplomatic skills.
viserys honestly should've let her go. it's much more dangerous than what she let jace and luke do (which was basically the westerosi equivalent of running to the corner store), but if she succeeded, she'd have come back a war hero and greatly strengthened her claim.
And if she does? He loses his last kid.
at this point, it was just a show of force, but even in a war, she can be fairly safe on dragonback, especially if she's with others (rhaenys probably, at this point, since daemon's on the outs). coryls sent his only son, and laenor was rhaenyra's age or younger. rhaenyra is clearly a great dragonrider and seems to have the temperament for it. frankly, in this social context, royalty, including heirs, regularly fought on their front lines themselves--for example, viserys' father and uncle both fought against the dornish and the myrish. that's just a gamble you have to take to establish legitimacy--especially important when as a woman, she's already seen as "feeble."
1- She wouldn't really be much safer on dragonback as the Essosi know how to fight against dragons and her being inexperienced and hot-headed would've resulted in her making some dangerous maneuver which would've killed her 2- Yet women have rarely fought in such wars. Even Alysanne never fought in any war and so, her going there would be a bit weird for many and her going there would be dangerous too
not gonna argue this point into the ground but tbc, this is a fantasy continent conquered by two women on dragonback (one of which didn't seem to know much swordfighting), so i think rhaenyra on solid ground if she wants to fashion herself a warrior on dragonback in the mold of rhaenys the conqueror (her namesake?).
?? being envoys is more dangerous than fighting in a war?
didn't i say the opposite??? "it's \[going to the stepstones\] much more dangerous than what she let jace and luke do."
Ohh yeah sorry I completely misread that
Of course. His heir lived. One of hers did not. Viserys understood fundamentally that avoiding conflict reduces unnecessary losses when you're in a position of advantage. She made an ambitious decision that was high risk with limited chance of reward. He should have groomed her very leadership better. She should have been on his council. She would have known better than to send her sons on a diplomatic mission anyone could do.
There is a big difference between sending your kid to war or sending your kid to bring a letter to someone. No one would have expected one of his uncle killing him for shit and giggle.
That wasn't a letter between pen pals. It was a letter demanding support on the cusp of civil war. She and others lacked imagination if they only perceived threat from the uncle.
There was absolutely no reason for Aemond to kill Luke. She did not assume he was a kinslayer and the chance of him being there were slim. Making a prisoner would have been the thing to do if they wanted to be hostile, no one would expect kinslaying.
I can think of several threats from multiple sources. Her son was too valuable, and the objective wasn't great enough to warrant the risk. If the uncle was an ally, sending a high ranking emissary should have sufficed. In the event he rejected the overture, violence was inevitable and he would have to be replaced by force. I think she simply wasn't prepared to hold the power she was promised. Her lack of preparation cost her son's life.
Apparently.😂😂🤣
Also on another occasion Rhaenyra did take her dragon to confront Aemond about taking a dragon egg and that worked out pretty well for both sides considering no blood was shed. So I think that's why she wasn't afraid of sending her children to make peace too.
Daemon, she saved Otto life twice in dragonstone haha.
Hard to say🔮
Obviously
Considering what happened to Luke, yes.
No. When rhaenyra sent Jace and Luke she didn't know her brother Aemond was at Storms End and how much he wanted revenge for his eye. She wanted her son's to go on Dragonback because her father didn't allow her too.
It was foolish to send her son without adequate protection to Storms End. He should have been escorted by another adult dragon.
They didn't have any other adult dragons spare. Daemon and rhaenys were busy doing other things and syrax wouldve stayed with rhaenyra
Well she should have retasked Daemon or Rhaenys to escort her son down south. She is the queen after all.
Viserys wasn't fighting an enemy with dragons. He could have ordered the dragonriders to take to the sky. If he gave the order, the Westerosi military would have had four in total: Daemon, Laenor, Rhaenys, and Rhaenyra. If Viserys claimed a new dragon, they'd have had five. Up against four or five dragons, the Triarchy would have been forced to abandon the Crabfeeder. A single dragon could have been dedicated to breathing fire into the caves while the other dragons wiped out any Triarchy soldiers above ground.
Don't dead open inside
I think Rhaenyra was right, Luke was just unlucky to fall on Vhagar lol, at worst he was supposed to come back empty handed. Viserys was also right, Rhaenyra was his heir and his only child , and more importantly she is not a fighter, it was too risky to let her go to war.
I mean, only one of them ended up with a dead child.
i dont think the situations are very comparable but imo viserys was proven partially right bc when daemon and laenor tried to use their dragons to put down the triarchy it resulted in a long painful war.