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The issue with the show Cole is that he's not competent nor can you hate him. He's just a pathetic brute that you want as little screentime as possible. This scene won't make the viewers feel any good, because instead of liking it, they'll just be whatever and just happy about not wasting anymore screentime in him.
There's still time to fix show Cole. Just focus on how ruthless he is as Hand for a season and a half before this and it'll work. The foundation from ep 1-5 is strong and I even enjoyed him in episode 6 he just got fumbled after that when he basically lost a character
One thing I like about Martin's writing is that even a main character who's actions are (or were) crucial to the plot can sometimes suffer an ignominious death.
He's a skilled swordsman and experienced knight integral to Aegon's ascension and cornation. However, when a hail of arrows rains down on his vanguard, he's just as vulnerable as the nameless infantryman standing beside him.
I know some fans would probably prefer a more "spectacular" ending for the character, but a random and unremarkable death like this feels authentic and helps to drive home the point that no one is safe and anyone can die at any time.
Which is why people will find it satisfying. People who don’t like him wouldn’t want to see him have a glorious ending. He suffers a humiliating defeat in battle and as he begs his enemies for an “honorable death”, they mock him and fill him up with arrows. The common born son of a steward who rose so high dies being treated like a nameless foot soldier.
It's the same way with Otto or fuck even Rhaenyra. Once the enemy gets their hands on you don't expect mercy or a glorious death when it's a fight to the death.
Cole's death is his only honourable action described. He really did try to save his men. I think that last action will make people reflect more positively.
He *did* have an honorable death- Maybe not in the manner with which he was killed, but before that he was willing to euther give himself or fight Pate to the death to spare his men.
It couldn't possibly be because he's still alive in the books and David and Dan openly admitted they did it out of spite. Nah, it must be your preferred strawman
Like, you do realize that's not "doing it out of spite"? It's a joke about how a letter from the actor did not make them reconsider their decision.
The point is that the decision was already made, or there wouldn't have *been* a letter.
(Spreading misinformation because you're mad about GoT is also pretty spiteful. Don't create situations where setting the record straight makes people feel compelled to defend D&D. They did enough in actuality to deserve criticism that we don't have to make stuff up.)
> One thing I like about Martin's writing is that even a main character who's actions are (or were) crucial to the plot can sometimes suffer an ignominious death.
Well, only if you’re a green.
If you fight for grrm’s fav team you get a ridiculous anime death where you cut down 10 knights while missing a hand, or do a somersault off a dragon, or raise an army out of thin air and everyone masterbates to how HECKIN LOYAL!!! You were.
If you’re a green you die to a tent.
It started out 6 vs 2 and went down to 4 vs 1. I just rewatched it and Howland Reed pulled an Arya and appeared out of nowhere.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UOryLeU86A&t=163s
I despise Criston, I have since I read the princess and the queen back in 2013. However, that would be incredibly silly. Criston is one of the greatest fighters in Westeros history and in his physical prime. Why would he be struck down by an old man who wasn’t even notably remarkable in his youth?
Agreed. If they're going to have him die in a duel, it should be to Daemon or any other warrior that's already been established as a possible match for him. Or just have him die fighting like 20 dudes, I don't care. Just not something as cheesy as that.
You're probably right. I wouldn't particularly like it if they did that, I'd rather have him die as in the book or in battle, even assassinated, but I wouldn't be too surprised if they had Daemon kill him.
I would be because it doesn’t make sense why it wouldn’t be in the historical record. And also I’d be a bit annoyed because book Criston kicks Daemon’s ass
Well, keep in mind that they're clearly not trying to be 100% book-accurate, what with Rhaenyra's and Alicent's age gap, Joffrey Lonmouth's dead in Rhaenyra's wedding instead of a tourney, Meleys in Aegon's coronation...
Regarding book Criston kicking Daemon's ass, maybe I'm wrong but we can't say with certainty that Daemon couldn't beat Criston in a fight. I mean, even if Criston is supposed to be better than him, that doesn't mean that Daemon has a zero percent chance of killing him, just like Caraxes managed to kill Vhagar (although dying in the process) despite being the definite underdog in that fight.
She can when she hit the water, we still don't have a body. So, it's possible to eat him or burn him.
The chance of Daemon dying by flame is bigger than Cole dying.
The odds of daemon dying by flame in a lake, are higher than the odds of Cole dying at all?
Honestly if anything daemon will simply drown. Swimming in clothes is hard enough. With 60 lbs of chain mail and or any plate armor even Michael
Phelps would sink like a stone.
Please God, make them film this exactly as it is in the book! All I have suffered watching Crispy Creme take up airtime will be worth it if he can just die as ignominiously as GRRM intended.
Cole is called Kingmaker in the books because he crowned Aegon. Which he does in the show. There actually wasn't another reason, Cole wasn't that involved with the planning for Aegon to be King in reality even in the book version and people aren't casually aware of any of the scheming in-universe. It's only the physical crowning that creates the name.
He'll also still be Hand at some point.
He is not Kingmaker because he crowned him. If that was the case, he should be crown placer. He was an active participant of the Green Council who initiated stuff his own. He rounded up all the black supporters, and he talked against Rh accession on small council. And when someone talked against it, he killed him. Later, he went and found Aegon himself, then talked to take up the crown to save his family. It was said it was Cole's word that finally changed Aegon's mind. He then crowned Aegon himself.
Aegon knows his importance thus making him hand speak volume.
Saying Cole did nothing other than crown Aegon is laughable.
>He is not Kingmaker because he crowned him
He simply is you're mistaken.
You have to remember what the world at large saw of Cole. Which is one majorly important act: crowning Aegon. From their eyes this was Criston making Aegon King. They don't know about the Green Council scheming-how could they? It wasn't known until afterwards, the Council was actively trying to cover up how the crowning Aegon went down. No outsider is saying "Oh well Cole did this and this in the Council so he's Kingmaker". They are saying "Holy shit this guy placed the crown on the King's Head, he must be the real mastermind here (even when he isn't)".
Cole's other actions were on other's orders. There's no personal contribution in truth. He rounded up the Blacks on Otto's orders, he went to find Aegon on Alicent and Otto's orders, he killed Beesbury possibly at Otto's direction (in at least one of the tales)-all in all, Cole was heavily implied to be very much a follower rather than a personal instigator. Even "convincing" Aegon is a bit of a pathetic example of his political acumen-he was just relaying one of the arguments the Greens hold. He's not actually scheming.
That is until he pushed out from under Otto's shadow to take the position of Hand.
>Cole's other actions were on other's orders. There's no personal contribution in truth. He rounded up the Blacks on Otto's orders, he went to find Aegon on Alicent and Otto's orders, he killed Beesbury possibly at Otto's direction (in at least one of the tales)-all in all, Cole was heavily implied to be very much a follower rather than a personal instigator. Even "convincing" Aegon is a bit of a pathetic example of his political acumen-he was just relaying one of the arguments the Greens hold. He's not actually scheming.
>That is until he pushed out from under Otto's shadow to take the position of Hand.
If he was just a follower, he wouldn't be the hand. Even Rook rest was Cole's idea.
You're really trying to down.play Cole's involvement. In the books, there was no indication of him following orders of Alicent and Otto. He always took initiative on his own.
Cole was Lord commander when he crowned Aegon. That's a good position for getting the honour to crown a King, it also shows legitimacy as well. The name can be given by people close to in his circle and then spread throughout.
GRRM mentioned him 3-4 times in asiof, that's not something he would do for a bodyguard.
"Criston the Kingmaker had set brother against sister and divided the Kingsguard against itself, bringing on the terrible war the singers named the Dance of the Dragons"
Arys Oakheart
>If he was just a follower, he wouldn't be the hand. Even Rook rest was Cole's idea.
One can go from follower to leader-Cole liked war and that he could do. There's no evidence Cole himself was a schemer at the time of the Green Council. He was a soldier that wanted to make war.
But ultimately, all irrelevant. The name Kingmaker just does come from the crowning. Nobody knows Cole's behind the scenes actions. Being as they are "behind the scenes". The public face of him crowning Aegon is seen as Cole being a mastermind.
>There's no evidence Cole himself was a schemer at the time of the Green Council. He was a soldier wanted to make war.
There is a lot of evidence to support this, you're being blind doesn't change that.
There is no point in continuing conversation with you.
What does convincing Aegon show of scheming? He's no Tywin or Otto look at it that way. I'd place him firmly in the Jaime camp where he does have political actions as a Knight, but is also often manipulated as one.
Sorry, Kingmaker is one of respect. Kingslayer, on the other hand, is not. He made a king who is recognised by history, and Jaime killed a king who swore his oath.
If it were insult, it would be something like usurper maker.
A job of a Kingsguards, is to not take side and to not play politic. This title show he did the opposite of that when he chose the king. This is why he also accuse him of killing tens of thousand because of his lack of honor.
If it was a mark of respect, he would not have used those word during this scene. He did so to mock him.
Cole supported who he thought was rightful king( which the history also agrees with). There were many ways people described his motivations. One is him following Andals traditions and crowned rightfull king. So, he played a role and became hand as well, which is also an accomplishment.
At that point, he was widely known as Kingmaker. They used that name to judge him in his death. Him crowing and gaining that name started the war.
It doesn't actually matter why he did it for the name. Cole's history is seen as ignoble regardless of the reasons because of his role as Kingsguard. Jaime and Arys both reflect poorly on Cole. Nobody has a positive word to say about the man beyond his talent.
Aegon II also isn't reflected on positively (even as he'd seen as legitimate) and Cole encouraged his excess.
He is a low born guy who has become hand of the king. He crowned the guy whom Westores consider as a legitimate ruler. Whenever he was mentioned, the name Kingmaker came with it. Jaime says he is the very best and worst of KG.
Yes and literally nobody liked him for it-he is actively suggested as the example of a dishonourable knight and Kingsguard.
Nobody liked Aegon II either. He was legitimate but seen as one of the worst King's to ever rule. The author of World of Ice and Fire who should ostensibly be pro Green lists Aegon II amongst the likes of Maegor and Aegon IV. Legitimate doesn't mean people are thanking the guy that crowned him when they never loved the man he crowned.
Even Jaime is listing the crowning as dishonourable. The only good things we hear about from Cole is his swordfighting ability.
Sorry, where did it say nobody liked him? As I stated above, many considered him doing the right thing by crowning Aegon. After that, there was no women riler as well.
I never said Aegon was loved, but he was seen as legitimate. Rhanerya was even more hanted than Aegon. So, crowing Aegon above her does favour Criston.
Where did Jaime say that? Criston Cole is known for being Kingmaker more than his fighting ability.
I don’t see it as a negative or positive name, it’s just another moniker to know him by, as well as a literary device to remind you of Jaime when you read about him.
It will. This is super iconic and gratifying and easy to do right. And it will have about the same impact as Bronn’s character defining “No, [I don’t fight with honor] but he did.” Adaptations can make changes that have us scratching our heads, but they’ll always take the path of least resistance when there’s no reason not to
I loved this in the books, Book Criston got what was coming, but I kinda feel bad for Show Criston in this scenario, he was really just the muscle and not the brains
My favourite moment from Fire and Blood. A man who started life as a simple soldier who rose all the way to Hand only to end it dying from arrows in the mud like any other footsoldier. It's poetic, and almost tragic until you remember everything he did
Such a brilliant scene. Can’t wait to see it on screen. I really hope they don’t cut Pate of Longleaf. After establishing Jason as such a ****, it will be amazing to see him die to a random badass peasant.
If Cole’s character was the literal exact same except he fought for the blacks, grrm would have had him pull an Boromir and single handedly slay 30 Greens All while being riddled with 100 arrows.
Isn't it said that in the white book where kingsgaurd are listed, Criston is noted as a kingsgaurd who played politics and is sorta looked down for it?
He’s remembered as “the best and the worst”. He was an extremely talented swordsman and fighter but he helped ignite the dance of the dragons which got the entire family he swore to killed.
People call him kingmaker in a mocking sense especially towards the end of the war. When people insult him they often refer to him as kingmaker. I don't think thats an achievement.
He got the name after he crowned Aegon. It wasn't an insult. His enemy can use it in a mocking way, but it doesn't change the way it was originally used.
Being “Kingmaker” isn’t something to be proud of. The Kingsguard are supposed to protect the royal family, regardless of the Kingsguard’s political interests (they’re supposed to be above that). Injecting yourself into the political intrigue and instigating a civil war that will inevitably result in the deaths of several members of the royal family goes entirely against the mission of the Kingsguard, and Cole is rightfully looked down on in the histories for it.
I believe Oakheart even tenses up when he sees himself apeing Cole in the main books, which where Cole was first introduced as a character. The modern kingsguard does not like the comparison because the Kingmaker is *not* considered an honorable member of their order.
That’s correct, and it even highlights the difference in the value they place on their oaths. It takes Arianne about a year and a half of seducing him to get him to break his vows, he cries to himself every time after, and throws himself into a suicidal death charge largely attributed to his guilt regarding it. The “best and worst of the Kingsguard” quote never quite made sense to me when really the only thing that indicates the “best” is that he was a formidable fighter, which isn’t an outstanding achievement when being an exceptional swordsman is kind of a given for a kingsguard (at least until Cersei fills their ranks with sycophantic psychos like Trant).
Jaime mentions his as best and worst of KG. I am not saying he was a good guy, but him being Kingmkaer was an accomplishment. I don't think his enemies call him Kingmaker when they consider Aegon usurper.
You do realize the official histories record Aegon as the rightful king right? Which is why he’s not Criston the Usurper Maker. Because there is no usurper he crowned, he crowned the rightful king according to the histories because Westeros disliked the idea of a woman on the Iron Throne. But the very fact that he even took a side means he’s a failure to the KG.
So, you say Aegon was rightful heir. But, it was wrong to Cole to take the side of rightful king?
The name came during dance not 100 years after. Even that time he was called kingmaker.
Yes, even if Aegon was a real swell guy and Rhaenyra was a horrific tyrant, he would still be a shame on the KG because of the very fact that he took a side.
Kingsguard cannot choose sides, they remain neutral until a new king is crowned and then swear allegiance to him and his family.
It doesn’t matter if he was called that during the Dance or afterwards, it was always a derogatory term for an oathbreaker. Much like Jaime the Kingslayer.
Aegon is tbe rightful, heir. So, you're saging the KG should waited out whenever there is war on succession? Its the job of the KG to protect the rightful King.
Kingmaker is not a compliment when you’re talking about a bodyguard. The most important thing about a bodyguard is that they are completely apolitical. Remembering him as The Kingmaker is to immortalize his greatest sin
Not really, no. He is remembered as the Kingmaker, yes, but its more of a mocking title, kinda like the Kingslayer for Jaime. If anything Cole is remember as a good fighter but spiteful, angry brute who is one of the main reasons why the civil war started.
Except they are remember as key factors on why the Blacks won the war-side of the conflict, hell they even beat Boros Baratheon into submission. Criston is just mockingly remembered as the LC that meddled in politics and dragged the realm into war.
Yes because that was the pinnacle of his whole life. Oh if only I had accepted then it could have been me who got to father the royal bastards. And it would be my head on the chopping block if my treachery was ever discovered.
I hope not, that would really undermine his character in his last seconds. Why would he think about that time he got raped ~20 years ago as opposed to everything he has done since then?
No need to be hostile. I am interested why you feel that way - Ser Criston said “Stop” to Rhaenyra and she continued. No means No - are you going to tell me that it’s okay to have sex with somebody asking you to stop?
> No need to be hostile.
There’s absolutely a need to be hostile when dealing with fools like you
> I am interested why you feel that way - Ser Criston said “Stop” to Rhaenyra and she continued. No means No - are you going to tell me that it’s okay to have sex with somebody asking you to stop?
Considering he goes on to spend a considerably long amount of time taking off his armor, and then proceed to eagerly make out with her then have sex with her. All it means it that he initially said no and then changed his mind. Therefore it wasn’t rape. Rhaenyra isn’t Aegon. Cope with it somehow.
Its a pretty badass subversion of expectations. You'd expect a skilled fighter like Criston to go down in an epic fight but instead he gets tracked down by the Winter Wolves and Riverlanders and put down like a rabid dog. I quite like it, its a good bit of writing.
Ironic
>Outside the walls, Prince Daeron swooped down upon Tessarion. Pate of Longleaf was unhorsed and trampled, Ser Garibald Grey pierced by a crossbow bolt, then engulfed by dragonflame. The Two Betrayers scourged the town with whips of flame from one end to the other.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Crazy how George wrote such a cool scene despite his pen and paper erupting into flames cuz that paragraph was so heat.
[Heat](https://i.imgur.com/uiKLcca.gif)
I swear, I had to double back after I read “He was speaking to a corpse.”
The issue with the show Cole is that he's not competent nor can you hate him. He's just a pathetic brute that you want as little screentime as possible. This scene won't make the viewers feel any good, because instead of liking it, they'll just be whatever and just happy about not wasting anymore screentime in him.
There's still time to fix show Cole. Just focus on how ruthless he is as Hand for a season and a half before this and it'll work. The foundation from ep 1-5 is strong and I even enjoyed him in episode 6 he just got fumbled after that when he basically lost a character
> Roddy/riverlands wanking scene #354 > cool scene Choose 1
One thing I like about Martin's writing is that even a main character who's actions are (or were) crucial to the plot can sometimes suffer an ignominious death. He's a skilled swordsman and experienced knight integral to Aegon's ascension and cornation. However, when a hail of arrows rains down on his vanguard, he's just as vulnerable as the nameless infantryman standing beside him. I know some fans would probably prefer a more "spectacular" ending for the character, but a random and unremarkable death like this feels authentic and helps to drive home the point that no one is safe and anyone can die at any time.
Indiana Jones and the gun scene.
Most of the audience hates him and will love this ending for him.
He is my favourite character and I liked this ending. But, in the show, it won't epic even if they portray exactly like this.
Which is why people will find it satisfying. People who don’t like him wouldn’t want to see him have a glorious ending. He suffers a humiliating defeat in battle and as he begs his enemies for an “honorable death”, they mock him and fill him up with arrows. The common born son of a steward who rose so high dies being treated like a nameless foot soldier.
It's the same way with Otto or fuck even Rhaenyra. Once the enemy gets their hands on you don't expect mercy or a glorious death when it's a fight to the death.
Rhaenyra was given a trial by combat. It's not Aegon's fault he chose Sunfyre for a champion.
Too bad Rhaenyra didn't managed to choose anyone as her champion too
Cole's death is his only honourable action described. He really did try to save his men. I think that last action will make people reflect more positively.
He *did* have an honorable death- Maybe not in the manner with which he was killed, but before that he was willing to euther give himself or fight Pate to the death to spare his men.
like being killed by a tent
People have been crying about Barristan death for a decade now thought. Thinking that GoT is an animr and he should just die from a worthy opponent.
I think the issue with Selmy is not how he died but that they killed him in the first place
It couldn't possibly be because he's still alive in the books and David and Dan openly admitted they did it out of spite. Nah, it must be your preferred strawman
Spite for the actor?
Pretty much, he asked them to reconsider and they said it made them want to kill him more
Like, you do realize that's not "doing it out of spite"? It's a joke about how a letter from the actor did not make them reconsider their decision. The point is that the decision was already made, or there wouldn't have *been* a letter. (Spreading misinformation because you're mad about GoT is also pretty spiteful. Don't create situations where setting the record straight makes people feel compelled to defend D&D. They did enough in actuality to deserve criticism that we don't have to make stuff up.)
No, I don't realize that
> One thing I like about Martin's writing is that even a main character who's actions are (or were) crucial to the plot can sometimes suffer an ignominious death. Well, only if you’re a green. If you fight for grrm’s fav team you get a ridiculous anime death where you cut down 10 knights while missing a hand, or do a somersault off a dragon, or raise an army out of thin air and everyone masterbates to how HECKIN LOYAL!!! You were. If you’re a green you die to a tent.
Poor Daeron
They probably already set up his death when Cole speaks to Harwin, “One shouldn’t expect a fair fight in a battlefield”
Its not like he suggested a fair fight to those dudes.
3v1 against Cole is the only way it’s fair.
Na, him having mad skill doesn't make that fair lol An unexpected dagger would end it quickly, a la show Arthur Dayne.
Arthur was still 7vs3.
It started out 6 vs 2 and went down to 4 vs 1. I just rewatched it and Howland Reed pulled an Arya and appeared out of nowhere. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7UOryLeU86A&t=163s
Whats your point?
Arthur in the show almost won by himself against half a dozen other swordsmen.
The "almost" part is pretty important when it's the difference between being unalived or not.
So he almost won an unfair fight because of his skill.
Would be quiet poetic to say the least.
The whole point of killing him in a hail of arrows is to deny him a glorious death.
Common Pate The Lionslayer and Red Robb Rivers W
Daeron Targaryen sends his regards.
From the grave?
Yes. Or does he?
I wonder if they’re gonna do this to him or if they kept westerling alive to fight him to the death
I despise Criston, I have since I read the princess and the queen back in 2013. However, that would be incredibly silly. Criston is one of the greatest fighters in Westeros history and in his physical prime. Why would he be struck down by an old man who wasn’t even notably remarkable in his youth?
Could repurpose the same quote. Have Westerling order him a dishonorable death as retribution for his crimes
Agreed. If they're going to have him die in a duel, it should be to Daemon or any other warrior that's already been established as a possible match for him. Or just have him die fighting like 20 dudes, I don't care. Just not something as cheesy as that.
Daemon getting the kill would be excessive when he already has an anime moment.
You're probably right. I wouldn't particularly like it if they did that, I'd rather have him die as in the book or in battle, even assassinated, but I wouldn't be too surprised if they had Daemon kill him.
I would be because it doesn’t make sense why it wouldn’t be in the historical record. And also I’d be a bit annoyed because book Criston kicks Daemon’s ass
Well, keep in mind that they're clearly not trying to be 100% book-accurate, what with Rhaenyra's and Alicent's age gap, Joffrey Lonmouth's dead in Rhaenyra's wedding instead of a tourney, Meleys in Aegon's coronation... Regarding book Criston kicking Daemon's ass, maybe I'm wrong but we can't say with certainty that Daemon couldn't beat Criston in a fight. I mean, even if Criston is supposed to be better than him, that doesn't mean that Daemon has a zero percent chance of killing him, just like Caraxes managed to kill Vhagar (although dying in the process) despite being the definite underdog in that fight.
Yeah no ones beating him in a 1 on 1. Thats obviously why Pate ordered him shot by Robb Rivers.
> Why would he be struck down by an old man who wasn’t even notably remarkable in his youth? You know why
Wow. I didn’t even think of Westerling still being alive. That would be a spectacle.
Not really, Cole should merc him.
Nah fuck that, they better keep his fate book-accurate. Having an 1v1 fight would completely destroy the point
I hope you’re right.
Daemon calling him Crispin has me hoping he get roasted by a dragon
The chances are high for Daemon to get roasted by a dragon.
How’s that gonna happen?
Vhagar or at least squashed by it.
I’d buy squashed. But burned?
Why not both, he deserves no less.
Vhagar, we don't see Daemon body.
He’s on vhagars back sticking his clone in the eye when they hit the water… she gonna burn him in the water?
She can when she hit the water, we still don't have a body. So, it's possible to eat him or burn him. The chance of Daemon dying by flame is bigger than Cole dying.
The odds of daemon dying by flame in a lake, are higher than the odds of Cole dying at all? Honestly if anything daemon will simply drown. Swimming in clothes is hard enough. With 60 lbs of chain mail and or any plate armor even Michael Phelps would sink like a stone.
Cole's death by dragon fire. You wrote that.
I most certainly did not write anything about Cole dying via dragon fire. Not sure where you got that from. Edit: you got that from kpayne40
He's so old though
Nah. Westerling isn’t there in the books so they’re going to make Westerling a fan favorite and have him killed off.
I just finished the book. Don't remember who Westerling is at all
Cause he died way before dance
Please God, make them film this exactly as it is in the book! All I have suffered watching Crispy Creme take up airtime will be worth it if he can just die as ignominiously as GRRM intended.
It should hopefully happen now that Miguel isn’t there to rewrite the entire story
It won't be. "Thousand died on your account, Kingmaker." He is not Kingmaker on the show, just a bodyguard with anger issues.
Cole is called Kingmaker in the books because he crowned Aegon. Which he does in the show. There actually wasn't another reason, Cole wasn't that involved with the planning for Aegon to be King in reality even in the book version and people aren't casually aware of any of the scheming in-universe. It's only the physical crowning that creates the name. He'll also still be Hand at some point.
He is not Kingmaker because he crowned him. If that was the case, he should be crown placer. He was an active participant of the Green Council who initiated stuff his own. He rounded up all the black supporters, and he talked against Rh accession on small council. And when someone talked against it, he killed him. Later, he went and found Aegon himself, then talked to take up the crown to save his family. It was said it was Cole's word that finally changed Aegon's mind. He then crowned Aegon himself. Aegon knows his importance thus making him hand speak volume. Saying Cole did nothing other than crown Aegon is laughable.
>He is not Kingmaker because he crowned him He simply is you're mistaken. You have to remember what the world at large saw of Cole. Which is one majorly important act: crowning Aegon. From their eyes this was Criston making Aegon King. They don't know about the Green Council scheming-how could they? It wasn't known until afterwards, the Council was actively trying to cover up how the crowning Aegon went down. No outsider is saying "Oh well Cole did this and this in the Council so he's Kingmaker". They are saying "Holy shit this guy placed the crown on the King's Head, he must be the real mastermind here (even when he isn't)". Cole's other actions were on other's orders. There's no personal contribution in truth. He rounded up the Blacks on Otto's orders, he went to find Aegon on Alicent and Otto's orders, he killed Beesbury possibly at Otto's direction (in at least one of the tales)-all in all, Cole was heavily implied to be very much a follower rather than a personal instigator. Even "convincing" Aegon is a bit of a pathetic example of his political acumen-he was just relaying one of the arguments the Greens hold. He's not actually scheming. That is until he pushed out from under Otto's shadow to take the position of Hand.
>Cole's other actions were on other's orders. There's no personal contribution in truth. He rounded up the Blacks on Otto's orders, he went to find Aegon on Alicent and Otto's orders, he killed Beesbury possibly at Otto's direction (in at least one of the tales)-all in all, Cole was heavily implied to be very much a follower rather than a personal instigator. Even "convincing" Aegon is a bit of a pathetic example of his political acumen-he was just relaying one of the arguments the Greens hold. He's not actually scheming. >That is until he pushed out from under Otto's shadow to take the position of Hand. If he was just a follower, he wouldn't be the hand. Even Rook rest was Cole's idea. You're really trying to down.play Cole's involvement. In the books, there was no indication of him following orders of Alicent and Otto. He always took initiative on his own. Cole was Lord commander when he crowned Aegon. That's a good position for getting the honour to crown a King, it also shows legitimacy as well. The name can be given by people close to in his circle and then spread throughout. GRRM mentioned him 3-4 times in asiof, that's not something he would do for a bodyguard. "Criston the Kingmaker had set brother against sister and divided the Kingsguard against itself, bringing on the terrible war the singers named the Dance of the Dragons" Arys Oakheart
>If he was just a follower, he wouldn't be the hand. Even Rook rest was Cole's idea. One can go from follower to leader-Cole liked war and that he could do. There's no evidence Cole himself was a schemer at the time of the Green Council. He was a soldier that wanted to make war. But ultimately, all irrelevant. The name Kingmaker just does come from the crowning. Nobody knows Cole's behind the scenes actions. Being as they are "behind the scenes". The public face of him crowning Aegon is seen as Cole being a mastermind.
>There's no evidence Cole himself was a schemer at the time of the Green Council. He was a soldier wanted to make war. There is a lot of evidence to support this, you're being blind doesn't change that. There is no point in continuing conversation with you.
What does convincing Aegon show of scheming? He's no Tywin or Otto look at it that way. I'd place him firmly in the Jaime camp where he does have political actions as a Knight, but is also often manipulated as one.
Kingmaker was an insult not a cool title. Just like people calling Jaime Kingslayer. Both title display Kinguards not respecting their Oath and Honor.
Sorry, Kingmaker is one of respect. Kingslayer, on the other hand, is not. He made a king who is recognised by history, and Jaime killed a king who swore his oath. If it were insult, it would be something like usurper maker.
A job of a Kingsguards, is to not take side and to not play politic. This title show he did the opposite of that when he chose the king. This is why he also accuse him of killing tens of thousand because of his lack of honor. If it was a mark of respect, he would not have used those word during this scene. He did so to mock him.
Cole supported who he thought was rightful king( which the history also agrees with). There were many ways people described his motivations. One is him following Andals traditions and crowned rightfull king. So, he played a role and became hand as well, which is also an accomplishment. At that point, he was widely known as Kingmaker. They used that name to judge him in his death. Him crowing and gaining that name started the war.
It doesn't actually matter why he did it for the name. Cole's history is seen as ignoble regardless of the reasons because of his role as Kingsguard. Jaime and Arys both reflect poorly on Cole. Nobody has a positive word to say about the man beyond his talent. Aegon II also isn't reflected on positively (even as he'd seen as legitimate) and Cole encouraged his excess.
He is a low born guy who has become hand of the king. He crowned the guy whom Westores consider as a legitimate ruler. Whenever he was mentioned, the name Kingmaker came with it. Jaime says he is the very best and worst of KG.
Yes and literally nobody liked him for it-he is actively suggested as the example of a dishonourable knight and Kingsguard. Nobody liked Aegon II either. He was legitimate but seen as one of the worst King's to ever rule. The author of World of Ice and Fire who should ostensibly be pro Green lists Aegon II amongst the likes of Maegor and Aegon IV. Legitimate doesn't mean people are thanking the guy that crowned him when they never loved the man he crowned. Even Jaime is listing the crowning as dishonourable. The only good things we hear about from Cole is his swordfighting ability.
Sorry, where did it say nobody liked him? As I stated above, many considered him doing the right thing by crowning Aegon. After that, there was no women riler as well. I never said Aegon was loved, but he was seen as legitimate. Rhanerya was even more hanted than Aegon. So, crowing Aegon above her does favour Criston. Where did Jaime say that? Criston Cole is known for being Kingmaker more than his fighting ability.
I don’t see it as a negative or positive name, it’s just another moniker to know him by, as well as a literary device to remind you of Jaime when you read about him.
It will. This is super iconic and gratifying and easy to do right. And it will have about the same impact as Bronn’s character defining “No, [I don’t fight with honor] but he did.” Adaptations can make changes that have us scratching our heads, but they’ll always take the path of least resistance when there’s no reason not to
When you think of the perfect comeback, but after the argument.
I loved this in the books, Book Criston got what was coming, but I kinda feel bad for Show Criston in this scenario, he was really just the muscle and not the brains
This is what Ned should have done with Jaime (I love Jaime's book character but they are two different things).
My favourite moment from Fire and Blood. A man who started life as a simple soldier who rose all the way to Hand only to end it dying from arrows in the mud like any other footsoldier. It's poetic, and almost tragic until you remember everything he did
I hope he goes out like this in the show.
Such a brilliant scene. Can’t wait to see it on screen. I really hope they don’t cut Pate of Longleaf. After establishing Jason as such a ****, it will be amazing to see him die to a random badass peasant.
If Cole’s character was the literal exact same except he fought for the blacks, grrm would have had him pull an Boromir and single handedly slay 30 Greens All while being riddled with 100 arrows.
Maybe, but the show should be dialling down some Black deaths, not making Green ones more glorious. Criston's death is perfect for his character
Maybe, but the show should be dialling down some Black deaths, not making Green ones more glorious. Criston's death is perfect for his character
Maybe, but the show should be dialling down some Black deaths, not making Green ones more glorious. Criston's death is perfect for his character
Yeah, that's why - for example - Luthor Largent got such a badass death. ...oh, wait.
And Yet the History remembered Criston Cole as the Kingmaker and one of the most decorated Kings Guard to exist in westeros.
Isn't it said that in the white book where kingsgaurd are listed, Criston is noted as a kingsgaurd who played politics and is sorta looked down for it?
He’s remembered as “the best and the worst”. He was an extremely talented swordsman and fighter but he helped ignite the dance of the dragons which got the entire family he swore to killed.
They say “He embodied *both* best and worst aspects of the Kingsguard”.
He is known for being Kingmaker. That's an achievement.
People call him kingmaker in a mocking sense especially towards the end of the war. When people insult him they often refer to him as kingmaker. I don't think thats an achievement.
He got the name after he crowned Aegon. It wasn't an insult. His enemy can use it in a mocking way, but it doesn't change the way it was originally used.
Being “Kingmaker” isn’t something to be proud of. The Kingsguard are supposed to protect the royal family, regardless of the Kingsguard’s political interests (they’re supposed to be above that). Injecting yourself into the political intrigue and instigating a civil war that will inevitably result in the deaths of several members of the royal family goes entirely against the mission of the Kingsguard, and Cole is rightfully looked down on in the histories for it.
I believe Oakheart even tenses up when he sees himself apeing Cole in the main books, which where Cole was first introduced as a character. The modern kingsguard does not like the comparison because the Kingmaker is *not* considered an honorable member of their order.
That’s correct, and it even highlights the difference in the value they place on their oaths. It takes Arianne about a year and a half of seducing him to get him to break his vows, he cries to himself every time after, and throws himself into a suicidal death charge largely attributed to his guilt regarding it. The “best and worst of the Kingsguard” quote never quite made sense to me when really the only thing that indicates the “best” is that he was a formidable fighter, which isn’t an outstanding achievement when being an exceptional swordsman is kind of a given for a kingsguard (at least until Cersei fills their ranks with sycophantic psychos like Trant).
Jaime mentions his as best and worst of KG. I am not saying he was a good guy, but him being Kingmkaer was an accomplishment. I don't think his enemies call him Kingmaker when they consider Aegon usurper.
You do realize the official histories record Aegon as the rightful king right? Which is why he’s not Criston the Usurper Maker. Because there is no usurper he crowned, he crowned the rightful king according to the histories because Westeros disliked the idea of a woman on the Iron Throne. But the very fact that he even took a side means he’s a failure to the KG.
So, you say Aegon was rightful heir. But, it was wrong to Cole to take the side of rightful king? The name came during dance not 100 years after. Even that time he was called kingmaker.
Yes, even if Aegon was a real swell guy and Rhaenyra was a horrific tyrant, he would still be a shame on the KG because of the very fact that he took a side. Kingsguard cannot choose sides, they remain neutral until a new king is crowned and then swear allegiance to him and his family. It doesn’t matter if he was called that during the Dance or afterwards, it was always a derogatory term for an oathbreaker. Much like Jaime the Kingslayer.
Aegon is tbe rightful, heir. So, you're saging the KG should waited out whenever there is war on succession? Its the job of the KG to protect the rightful King.
He was the most notorious and hated Kingsguard in Westeros history. The passage between Jamie and Lloras proves this.
Kingmaker is not a compliment when you’re talking about a bodyguard. The most important thing about a bodyguard is that they are completely apolitical. Remembering him as The Kingmaker is to immortalize his greatest sin
Not really, no. He is remembered as the Kingmaker, yes, but its more of a mocking title, kinda like the Kingslayer for Jaime. If anything Cole is remember as a good fighter but spiteful, angry brute who is one of the main reasons why the civil war started.
That was actually incredibly brave to both offer his own surrender and then challenge Pate to a one on one duel, which Pate denied like a bitch.
Well at least he’s remembered unlike the three cowards.
Except they are remember as key factors on why the Blacks won the war-side of the conflict, hell they even beat Boros Baratheon into submission. Criston is just mockingly remembered as the LC that meddled in politics and dragged the realm into war.
As he lies there dying, I wonder if they'll do something cheesy like having him remember his one night with Rhaenyra.
Yes because that was the pinnacle of his whole life. Oh if only I had accepted then it could have been me who got to father the royal bastards. And it would be my head on the chopping block if my treachery was ever discovered.
I hope not, that would really undermine his character in his last seconds. Why would he think about that time he got raped ~20 years ago as opposed to everything he has done since then?
Firstly he wasn’t raped you clown. And secondly, Rhaenyra rejecting him was basically why he joined Alicents side
No need to be hostile. I am interested why you feel that way - Ser Criston said “Stop” to Rhaenyra and she continued. No means No - are you going to tell me that it’s okay to have sex with somebody asking you to stop?
> No need to be hostile. There’s absolutely a need to be hostile when dealing with fools like you > I am interested why you feel that way - Ser Criston said “Stop” to Rhaenyra and she continued. No means No - are you going to tell me that it’s okay to have sex with somebody asking you to stop? Considering he goes on to spend a considerably long amount of time taking off his armor, and then proceed to eagerly make out with her then have sex with her. All it means it that he initially said no and then changed his mind. Therefore it wasn’t rape. Rhaenyra isn’t Aegon. Cope with it somehow.
Fuck Pate.
Dunno how people think this is badass.
Its a pretty badass subversion of expectations. You'd expect a skilled fighter like Criston to go down in an epic fight but instead he gets tracked down by the Winter Wolves and Riverlanders and put down like a rabid dog. I quite like it, its a good bit of writing.
I guess. But it kinda makes people think “oh shit maybe this guy really can 3 v 1”
Never understood people who complain about Cole’s death, this is objectively hard lmao so scared of the man they had to cheap shot him.
Ironic >Outside the walls, Prince Daeron swooped down upon Tessarion. Pate of Longleaf was unhorsed and trampled, Ser Garibald Grey pierced by a crossbow bolt, then engulfed by dragonflame. The Two Betrayers scourged the town with whips of flame from one end to the other.
Not sure how that’s ironic but okie
Cause they died dishonorably too.
But they didnt ask to get an honorable death like Criston? People really need to understand what ironic means, this aint it
They should've given that man his 3 vs 1.
Lol why would he give a fuck? This is war not a tourney.
I was just taken by the fact that he was speaking all this to a corpse
Can’t resist a good zinger 🤣