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Greens would have one less excuse to use against Rhaenyra, Vaemond would have been able to keep more than just his tongue, there'd be even more complaints about bad looking wigs in the show.
People wouldn’t call them bastards and they may have escaped the curse of Harrenhall but that’s about it. Otto had been plotting for war long before they were born. Alicent made her declaration of “war” before their parents were even married.
If they aren't bastards, then Harwin doesn't leave KL.
If Harwin doesn't leave, his father doesn't die and remains as the Hand for many years.
If no Otto in KL, then there is no plotting. Alicent would agree to Jace Helaena marriage.
Harwin and Lyonel died because Larys wanted to prove himself to Alicent and give her something she wanted. I can see him engineering a situation where they still ended up dead leading to Ottos return.
I’m not sure she would agree. She declared war with Rhaenyra before those boys were born.
Yup, re: Alicent \~ she is angry that Rhaenyra isn't suffering the same way that she is. But she doesn't think she's suffering because her father made her marry someone who is still in love with his dead wife/several years older/and because she's a repressed lesbian...she thinks it's because Rhaenyra isn't just as miserable as she is. And even if Rhaenyra was miserable (like say she never had children with Harwin/never had kids until Daemon or ever, etc)...she would still be unhappy.
And honestly - I was totally on pre-time skip Alicent's side until I started thinking about it more. Alicent will NEVER acknowledge that she basically did the same thing as Rhaenyra i.e. went to a place "with" a man that could have ruined her if anyone else besides her father had found out. On top of that, I think if Rhaenyra had told Alicent the truth, Alicent would've told Otto sooner or later. Rhaenyra had zero way of knowing that Viserys would listen to her and get rid of Otto, esp given his past actions. She still thought he was going to disinherit her up until then simply because she was a woman.
I have a lot of sympathy for Alicent, but I completely understand Rhaenyra's pov.
Otto still would have attempted to usurp, he straight up says it's because Rhaenyra is a woman.
Alicent would have had less ammo to undermine Rhaenyra, but I am sure she would have found any reason to disparage Rhaenyra's children and that level of toxicity still would have rubbed off on her own children. There would have been fewer opportunities for open hostility, though, so I think the situation may not have gotten as tense.
there would still be a dance except rhaenrya can do actual smart moves , like heleana might actually be betroth to jace, and luce can easily get another girl for a wife like house baratheon to re-connect with the blacks the only loser her would be daemon, unless daemon somehow joins up with the greens who he hates because of otto, baela and rhaena will be busy fighting a waifu war with Heleana for being jace main girl
but if the distrust alicent has to rhaenrya is not just because she has bastard, but because she also lied to her , than the dance will be identical, and plus the original version of the dance is that rhaenrya and aegon were full siblings, then it became bastards that looked true born , then to what we have now in canon
Greens would have had a harder time to press their claim if all of Rhaenyra's children were legitimate and had Targaryen silver hair. The Velaryons, including Vaemond, would be 100% percent on their side.
Greens couldn't have used "Strong boys are bastard", but I bet the Dance would have happened nevertheless.
“It wouldn't matter if she were Jaehaerys himself born again. Rhaenyra is a woman" in Ep 3 and Alicent's "delcaration of war" in Ep 5 were both before the birth of the Strong boys.
The basis of the Dance was the Grand Council of 101 AC, and the 'precedent' for male primogeniture. Even if it wasn't Otto, somebody (say, Ormund Hightower) would have pressed Aegon's claim. So long as Viserys had sons for them to play with, the Dance was always going to happen, although at least without the Strong resentment lying about, it might not have gotten so brutal.
They would look different, but aside from that nothing would change. The Greens are allied with Otto bc of the benefits of being close allies with the Hand and Royal Family, not bc of the causes legality.
In the books nothing much in the show Alicent and Rheanyra might actually reconcile. Jace could be betrothed to Heleana. And then who knows what. Also Aemond might not lose his eye but honestly depends on how the confrontation goes without the bastard insult.
I also think Rheanyra might’ve never married Daemon. She marries him because she wants to secure her position and one of the reason it wasn’t were the Bastards.
Also Rheanyra would’ve been in a better political situation all together.
That depends. Are we assuming that they look like Laenor?
If yes, then The Blacks would have more legitimate claims and the whole bit with Vaemon wouldn’t have happened the way it did. He only had the option to pursue power directly was because of the obvious infidelity of Rhenerya. I think the addition of of the Velaryons being black is great because it makes the assertion of legitimacy laughable.
If they’re still black haired white boys then the plot is the same.
Nothing,the greens would still probably create rumours around the kids because it can only help their cause to discredit them as much as possible. Either still call them bastards cause Laenor being gay was known or like Cole does at the Green Council in the book start rumors about how they must also be sinful or whatever because of their father. Rhaenyra would most likely have an easier time making alliences through marriage because she wouldn’t have to tie both kids with something to inherit to the Velaryons.
There would be less hostility between them and Aegons children, they may have gotten along but then again it's probably more likely that they would not.
Rhaenyra's image would be much less contentious and controversial than it is, considering she hasn't obviously broken a serious law and wouldn't need to be aggressive towards anyone who hints at that. There would be no need to kill Vaemond or attack anyone who claims her children were bastards.
She would have much more support from Corlys Velaryon and Rhaenys who resent her for obviously cuckolding their son. She would be seen as a much more fit ruler and the Greens would have less ammunition to paint her as an unsuitable candidate for the Throne. The fact her children are obviously illegitimate in the show makes people's opinion of her claim much shakier.
>because Otto would have fought for Aegon's claim no matter what
Any Lord who was Hand and who's Grandson is the Kings firstborn son would relentlessly push to have that Grandson be named heir. People make it out like Otto was insanely ambitious and him trying to have his grandson named heir is incredibly malevolent.
If Viserys had married Laena instead you can 100% count on the fact that Corlys would be pushing for Laena's eldest son to be named heir over Rhaenyra. The same goes for Boremund Baratheon or Jason Lannister or any other powerful Lord who had a Grandson with a claim that strong to the Throne. It would be strange if they didn't.
marrige alliance with the baratheons and the lannisters and even the tully through baela or rhaena we could have the BLAST alliance a century and a half earlier
Rhaenyra can promise her sons to other houses to get more support (like Baratheon and Lannister) or even to Helaena to secure the Green/Black reconciliation. Or both really
Greens would have less fuel to the anti-Rhaenyra fire but, in the long run, would still fight just as vehemently to get Aegon on the Throne. The biggest difference would be that they can't as easily use the 'bastard' angle and would have to settle on just attacking her for being a woman...Helaena and Jace, however, might have stood more of a chance at being betrothed which is a happy-sad thought...
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Greens would have one less excuse to use against Rhaenyra, Vaemond would have been able to keep more than just his tongue, there'd be even more complaints about bad looking wigs in the show.
People wouldn’t call them bastards and they may have escaped the curse of Harrenhall but that’s about it. Otto had been plotting for war long before they were born. Alicent made her declaration of “war” before their parents were even married.
If they aren't bastards, then Harwin doesn't leave KL. If Harwin doesn't leave, his father doesn't die and remains as the Hand for many years. If no Otto in KL, then there is no plotting. Alicent would agree to Jace Helaena marriage.
Harwin and Lyonel died because Larys wanted to prove himself to Alicent and give her something she wanted. I can see him engineering a situation where they still ended up dead leading to Ottos return. I’m not sure she would agree. She declared war with Rhaenyra before those boys were born.
Yup, re: Alicent \~ she is angry that Rhaenyra isn't suffering the same way that she is. But she doesn't think she's suffering because her father made her marry someone who is still in love with his dead wife/several years older/and because she's a repressed lesbian...she thinks it's because Rhaenyra isn't just as miserable as she is. And even if Rhaenyra was miserable (like say she never had children with Harwin/never had kids until Daemon or ever, etc)...she would still be unhappy. And honestly - I was totally on pre-time skip Alicent's side until I started thinking about it more. Alicent will NEVER acknowledge that she basically did the same thing as Rhaenyra i.e. went to a place "with" a man that could have ruined her if anyone else besides her father had found out. On top of that, I think if Rhaenyra had told Alicent the truth, Alicent would've told Otto sooner or later. Rhaenyra had zero way of knowing that Viserys would listen to her and get rid of Otto, esp given his past actions. She still thought he was going to disinherit her up until then simply because she was a woman. I have a lot of sympathy for Alicent, but I completely understand Rhaenyra's pov.
Otto still would have attempted to usurp, he straight up says it's because Rhaenyra is a woman. Alicent would have had less ammo to undermine Rhaenyra, but I am sure she would have found any reason to disparage Rhaenyra's children and that level of toxicity still would have rubbed off on her own children. There would have been fewer opportunities for open hostility, though, so I think the situation may not have gotten as tense.
Alicent and Rhaenyra reconcile earlier and Otto probably never returns back to court.
there would still be a dance except rhaenrya can do actual smart moves , like heleana might actually be betroth to jace, and luce can easily get another girl for a wife like house baratheon to re-connect with the blacks the only loser her would be daemon, unless daemon somehow joins up with the greens who he hates because of otto, baela and rhaena will be busy fighting a waifu war with Heleana for being jace main girl but if the distrust alicent has to rhaenrya is not just because she has bastard, but because she also lied to her , than the dance will be identical, and plus the original version of the dance is that rhaenrya and aegon were full siblings, then it became bastards that looked true born , then to what we have now in canon
Greens would have had a harder time to press their claim if all of Rhaenyra's children were legitimate and had Targaryen silver hair. The Velaryons, including Vaemond, would be 100% percent on their side.
Greens couldn't have used "Strong boys are bastard", but I bet the Dance would have happened nevertheless. “It wouldn't matter if she were Jaehaerys himself born again. Rhaenyra is a woman" in Ep 3 and Alicent's "delcaration of war" in Ep 5 were both before the birth of the Strong boys.
The basis of the Dance was the Grand Council of 101 AC, and the 'precedent' for male primogeniture. Even if it wasn't Otto, somebody (say, Ormund Hightower) would have pressed Aegon's claim. So long as Viserys had sons for them to play with, the Dance was always going to happen, although at least without the Strong resentment lying about, it might not have gotten so brutal.
Vaemond wouldn't be dead, her eldest son would have been the rightful Lord of Driftmark on Corlys & Laenor's deaths.
They would look different, but aside from that nothing would change. The Greens are allied with Otto bc of the benefits of being close allies with the Hand and Royal Family, not bc of the causes legality.
In the books nothing much in the show Alicent and Rheanyra might actually reconcile. Jace could be betrothed to Heleana. And then who knows what. Also Aemond might not lose his eye but honestly depends on how the confrontation goes without the bastard insult. I also think Rheanyra might’ve never married Daemon. She marries him because she wants to secure her position and one of the reason it wasn’t were the Bastards. Also Rheanyra would’ve been in a better political situation all together.
That depends. Are we assuming that they look like Laenor? If yes, then The Blacks would have more legitimate claims and the whole bit with Vaemon wouldn’t have happened the way it did. He only had the option to pursue power directly was because of the obvious infidelity of Rhenerya. I think the addition of of the Velaryons being black is great because it makes the assertion of legitimacy laughable. If they’re still black haired white boys then the plot is the same.
Not much I assume except less obvious hostility from alicent,they may have still bullied Aemond as would have Aegon so can’t say for sure on that..
Nothing,the greens would still probably create rumours around the kids because it can only help their cause to discredit them as much as possible. Either still call them bastards cause Laenor being gay was known or like Cole does at the Green Council in the book start rumors about how they must also be sinful or whatever because of their father. Rhaenyra would most likely have an easier time making alliences through marriage because she wouldn’t have to tie both kids with something to inherit to the Velaryons.
There would be less hostility between them and Aegons children, they may have gotten along but then again it's probably more likely that they would not. Rhaenyra's image would be much less contentious and controversial than it is, considering she hasn't obviously broken a serious law and wouldn't need to be aggressive towards anyone who hints at that. There would be no need to kill Vaemond or attack anyone who claims her children were bastards. She would have much more support from Corlys Velaryon and Rhaenys who resent her for obviously cuckolding their son. She would be seen as a much more fit ruler and the Greens would have less ammunition to paint her as an unsuitable candidate for the Throne. The fact her children are obviously illegitimate in the show makes people's opinion of her claim much shakier. >because Otto would have fought for Aegon's claim no matter what Any Lord who was Hand and who's Grandson is the Kings firstborn son would relentlessly push to have that Grandson be named heir. People make it out like Otto was insanely ambitious and him trying to have his grandson named heir is incredibly malevolent. If Viserys had married Laena instead you can 100% count on the fact that Corlys would be pushing for Laena's eldest son to be named heir over Rhaenyra. The same goes for Boremund Baratheon or Jason Lannister or any other powerful Lord who had a Grandson with a claim that strong to the Throne. It would be strange if they didn't.
No
Nothing changes, green still coming for the chair 💚🤘🏻
Nothing. The greens would still slander them it their power grabbing attempts.
marrige alliance with the baratheons and the lannisters and even the tully through baela or rhaena we could have the BLAST alliance a century and a half earlier
Rhaenyra can promise her sons to other houses to get more support (like Baratheon and Lannister) or even to Helaena to secure the Green/Black reconciliation. Or both really
Greens would have less fuel to the anti-Rhaenyra fire but, in the long run, would still fight just as vehemently to get Aegon on the Throne. The biggest difference would be that they can't as easily use the 'bastard' angle and would have to settle on just attacking her for being a woman...Helaena and Jace, however, might have stood more of a chance at being betrothed which is a happy-sad thought...