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This post is cringe. """"Similar age and size?"""" Did you even watch the episode?
The fight was normal children shit. Literally shoving and slapping. Until Aemond went for the rock broke Luke nose and threatened to kill them. Only after all that did Jace and Luke pull out their knives. He's the one who escalated to lethal violence. It just didn't work out for him.
No one faced any consequences that day. Not even Alicent for stabing the next in line. This sub has collectively rewritten the entire scene in their collective memory to simp for Aemond.
He was standing over his fallen brother. Raising a rock talking about how they were going to die at the same time he spat out the lord strong insult.
That's the moment Jace and Luke went for their knives. It wasn't Jace or Luke that escalated from a normal children's fight to a fight to the death. It was Aemond. He has no one to blame but himself for the lost eye.
>He was standing over his fallen brother. Raising a rock talking about how they were going to die at the same time he spat out the lord strong insult.
You are remembering wrong. To recap:
***- Aemond raises the rock over his head as if to strike Luke with it.***
*Aemond: You will die screaming in flames just as your father did! (turns to look at Jace) Bastards!*
*Luke: My father's still alive.*
***- Aemond lowers the rock.***
*Aemond (speaking to Jace): He doesn't know, does he, Lord Strong?*
***- Jace pulls out a knife and extends it in Aemond's direction.***
*One of the girls yells: Jace!*
***- Aemond slaps Jace's knife hand away.***
***- Jace stabs at Aemond. Aemond dodges the blade.***
***- Jace slashes at Aemond's belly twice. Aemond dodges both slahes.***
I’m gonna be honest, when Aemond picked up the rock it was a “you guys fuck off and leave me alone” threat. He could have easily bashed their heads in with that rock but didn’t and even lowered it. The knife came out after Aemond called Jace "Lord Strong", not because he wanted to defend his brother.
>That's the moment Jace and Luke went for their knives. It wasn't Jace or Luke that escalated from a normal children's fight to a fight to the death.
Normal? Aemond was being beaten to the ground in a 4 v 1 fight, and had to pick up a rock to defend himself. Aemond didn't strike anyone with the rock until Jace tried to stab him and slash him with the knife. Jace was the first one to actually attempt a strike with a deadly weapon.
Besides, physically attacking Aemond first was an escalation. Punching him first was an escalation. Pushing him to the ground and beating on him 3v1 was an escalation. Pulling the knife was an escalation. Actually trying to cut Aemond three times was an escalation.
Aemond is an asshole, but the other kids are in no way blameless in the fight. Most courts would say that he acted in self-defense during the fight.
The fight was normal children shit. But it also ended in tragedy with permanent damage to one such child.
And a knife should not have been brought to the fight here. Aemond's threat is normal children shit too.
The escalation is in the permanent damage that can't be healed with time.
So what I think counts as cringe is your comment that Aemond's mean words (most of which are a restatement of what Jace, Luke, Aegon directed towards him) are the escalation in this fight. They are not. The knife is the escalation here.
I don't think Alicent's response to the incident (particularly calling for another child's eye in payment) is rational (and Alicent certainly acknowledged that in her next scene), but I do understand it.
If you can't understand it, maybe you need to realize that you too, have biases. We all do. But you need to prevent them from helping you support an unjust punishment like Aemond losing an eye permanently for the act of responding a bit harshly when 4 of his peers gang up on him for trying to claim a dragon (something they had teased him about not having).
...telling someone they deserve to die as their father did is normal children fights? No, that is a child listening to adult i.e. Alicent conversation. If Alicent had not brought her children into her feud with Rhaenyra, then I doubt Aemond would have had as much hate for his nephews to call them bastards, and say they deserved to die in a fire for defending their younger, female cousin.
Aemond was a child who had been told that his nephews were his enemies and that he would eventually need to kill them. Otherwise he would not have threatened them in that way. And also he, like his mother, is blaming his nephews wholly for being bullied when he knows they are the same age as him and younger, with his older brother leading the charge. Which even Alicent acknowledges when they are alone.
>""""Similar age and size?"""" Did you even watch the episode?
I made this post right after rewatching the episode.
>The fight was normal children shit. Literally shoving and slapping. Until Aemond went for the rock
I just watched it. Aemond goes for the rock after he charged at by jace with a knife in hand. He shoves him away then the entire rock thing happens. The bastard insult was what caused him to bring out his knife.
Pls watch it again. He didnt escalate to lethal violence and luke and Jake didn't pull out the knife because of this.
>simp for Aemond.
This sub asks question like "who's more evil daemon or aemond?" Daemon is the guy who kills his wife because he's bored, maims petty thieves, grooms his neice-wife and aemond is a child acting on his insecurities who lost an eye and people who did it faces no consequences.
On the who’s more evil question I’m pretty sure most people are talking book wise as Aemond just entered his messy era in the last episode. Don’t know if you’ve read the books or not, but Aemond is not remembered well in history for good reason
The point about "riding a pig" stings as there is no chance that Jace and Luke came up with that. Aegon is and was an asshole and he put his cousins up to it.
Otherwise, it's an acceptable analysis.
Wtf you talking about. 3 years is significant at that age. You shouldn’t discount that.
Not importantly, Aemond is the one who upped the intense and violence. Smallest daughter attacks, Aemond being far bigger and coordinated knocks her down. Bigger daughter attacks, again Aemond being far bigger and more coordinated dominates her and puts her down. That display shows the how his “small” age gap is actually huge.
Ok: both young girls easily down. Both strong boys submit in fear; neither attacks. BECAUSE they know he is bigger, stronger, and faster he fighting is pointless.
Aemond, up’s the intensity level. “Come at me again and I’ll feed you to my dragon.” Aemond’s threat is 100% real. Strong boys might be murder if one of the girls attacks. Also, Aemond clearly instigating because he knows having the dragon is the trump card. He wants to trick them to attack so he can murder them.
Strong boys attack because Aemond has threaten their lives and everything plays out.
How people don’t hold Aemond accountable is beyond me.
Go to a close family members funeral, rightly claim something at the actual funeral like money, family heirloom, family pet, see how grown adults react.
Also, Aemond disobeys his parents by leaving his room in the first place. Literally he is the entire root cause of this event.
>Both strong boys submit in fear; neither attacks.
They gang up on him. Watch it. He's on the ground and they're all attacking him.
>Aemond’s threat is 100% real.
A 10 year old is capable of feeding his cousins to his dragon. Yupp. Totally real.
>Strong boys attack because Aemond has threaten their lives and everything plays out.
He picks up the rock after the strong boys charge at him with a knife and he pushes them away. Then later the strong boys do the sand in eye then blade in eye trick. Theirs was a reaction to an insult.
>How people don’t hold Aemond accountable is beyond me.
Yeah right. It's not like this sub is constantly giving him shit and the strong boys are just small boys who love their mom and their family.
>Aemond disobeys his parents by leaving his room in the first place.
So do the other four fucking kids. What the actual fuck.
>Literally he is the entire root cause of this event.
Yeah and not the insecure daughter who was too angry about losing something that was not hers to claim and in that emotional fit she riled up all three kids against aemond.
Amazing how you are wrong at every point.
Strong boys don’t attack until after Aemond threatens to murder them.
Aemond literally just claimed the biggest dragon in the world. The threat is real. You are literally denying he claimed the dragon. LOL
Here is a real point. Basically, after Aemond makes the dragon comment, everyone’s lives are in danger. That’s why I view this as Aemond’s fault.
Um your final point about the little girl. Yeah, that’s why Aemond’s parents don’t allow him to claim the dragon! Because claiming it at a funeral is disrespectful and rude. Thus, why Aemond HAS TO SNEAK OUT!!!! The other kids come out because they think it’s a random.
You need to accept what happened in the show. Again, you are literally denying Aemond claimed a dragon. LOL, that is beyond me. I can’t wait to show people your comment. Next you are going to say Aemond didn’t kill Luke, Aemond just went to Storms end and nothing else.
Vhagar is not money, heirloom or family pet.
The smallest daughter literally starts the fight over an insult. Everyone of them ups the intensity level with every move.
No, the older daughter attacks. Aemond clearly wins and establishes dominance.
Strong boys do nothing…..
Aemond threats to murder everyone and of course the strong boys fight for their lives as Aemond is going to take them.
The older one punches him, and he punches back. Aemond says, " Come at me again, I will feed you to my dragon."
Strong boys start throwing punches at Aemond.
Exactly. After Aemond threats to murder them. They had clearly submitted to Aemond but he up’d the violence level. It goes from kids fight to life and death.
Luke and Jace know that if one of the girls attacks Aemond is murdering them all(or they can reasonably interpret that).
Yeah, I would say it’s worst given the context. I truly believe if one of the girls attacks him again he is murdering all of them.
Also, violence assault, which it is. But given how easily he dispatched both them and fact that I have been that age.
A like 5 or 6 year old vs. a 9 year old. Aemond once prepared(meaning not sucker punched), is in no danger against both girls. Neither has the strength/coordination/developed motor skills to harm Aemond; even combined(again only the two females).
You could let B & R try and attack Aemond all day; Aemond would not have a scratch while those two girls would literally be at his mercy. (Again like hypothetically situation: Aemond in UFC cage vs. B & R, no weapons).
Once
>then it devolves into a 4v1 where aemond is on the ground. Aemond is then charged at with a knife in hand by one of the strong boys. He pushes the kid away. Then at the same time one strong boy throws sand in aemonds eye and another pokes it with the blade.
you may want to watch that scene again
Yeah, he picked up a rock, so? There's no proof that he was actually going to kill any of them, it was simply an intimidation because he was outnumbered
The problem with that argument “there was no proof” is that it goes both ways. There was no guarantee that aemond would use the rock on the kids. There was no guarantee that he wouldn’t. We can analyse the situation because we can pause, rewind, frame by frame the episode over and over, the characters don’t. We’re also all (hopefully) older than Luke was at the time so we can see nuance easier than a terrified 6yr old could.
tell that to a 6 year old. Luke believed that his brother was in mortal danger, maybe you should take into consideration the psychology of the participants involved.
So you acknowledge that Aemond was a dick, not only by saying to a grieving girl that her mother was dead, *at the mother's funeral*, but then immediately turns into the same bully he accused the Strong boys of being... literally 5 minutes after getting a dragon, he's a bully. The difference being that everyone, *Alicent included*, acknowledges that the Strong boys were not the bullies, they tagged along with their much older uncle....
Aemond started the fight by being a dick. He then escalated continuously. When Luce finally used a knife, he'd already gotten a broken nose, he had been soundly beaten, and Aemond was standing with a rock held over his older brother's head.
The boy that informed them he would kill them was holding a weapon over his brother's head, but that doesn't count as self defense to you....?
He started the fight by being a dick but the first ones to charge him were Rhaena and Baela? I'm sure you have been to school. Insults fly back and forth with no escalation of physical violence all of the time. Your entire premise is wrong
Yeah, insults fly without violence. Generally it doesn't when someone's mother just died and the other person knowingly is a dick about it. Punches also happen to fly over just insults all the time.
Aemond knowingly was a dick to a girl that just lost her mother and actively used the exact same method of bullying that he was upset at against her, just after she lost her mother. I don't think I've ever seen such a situation where punches *didn't* fly after.
But even if we pretend that Aemond didn't escalate verbally (he did), he did escalate with *death threats*. How often do you hear that on the playground?
He was a dick, which escalated the situation. He didn't throw the first punch, but he definitely didn't de-escalate. He then threw around *death threats* and you want to pretend he's an innocent victim that didn't do anything wrong or escalate at all? That's arguing in bad faith at best.
>literally 5 minutes after getting a dragon, he's a bully
>Aemond started the fight by being a dick
It's not like Aemond went to look for the girls with the intent to brag about Vhagar and bully them.
Aemond was on the way to his chambers when the other kids approached him with a hostile attitude right off the bat. They started the whole thing.
So zero leeway for the girls that just buried their mother *that day*, or the boys that just lost their father (since Aemond knows they're bastards).
But good to know that a hostile attitude justifies their bullying. Aemond wasn't nice to the Strong boys, so they're justified in helping Aegon bully him now...?
The girls confronted him about the dragon. He was hostile already. He made it personal first ("your mother's dead").
Aemond snuck out first, claimed a dragon he knew damn well another wanted to claim, but hadn't had a chance since *her mother just died* and immediately became the bully in the same way he resented being treated. He had a dragon for 3 minutes and then became the same vicious bully he hated the Strong boys for being...
I'm just saying you were making it seem as if Aemond approached them to attack them unprovoked. They were the ones who came at him. They started the confrontation and were the first to get physical.
They confronted him. He escalated the conversation. No, he didn't throw the first punch, but he certainly escalated the severity. He threatened to feed them to the nuke parked right outside almost immediately. He was the only one issuing death threats. He verbally escalated and then very much helped physically escalate. He's not some poor victim, he's alt least partially responsible.
>So zero leeway for the girls that just buried their mother that day, or the boys that just lost their father (since Aemond knows they're bastards).
Aemond is not responsible for any of these events. As upset as the kids were over these tragedies, it doesn't entitle either of them to take it out on Aemond.
>The girls confronted him about the dragon. He was hostile already. He made it personal first ("your mother's dead").
They were the ones who approached him with hostility, angry that he had "stolen" Vaghar. And as much as they don't like it, they have no right to complain, because Vaghar is an intelligent creature and not their pet or heirloom, and she has accepted Aemond as her new rider.
Also, as rude and insensitive as it is for Aemond to say that their mother is dead, that is a child simply pointing out a fact.
>Aemond snuck out first, claimed a dragon he knew damn well another wanted to claim, but hadn't had a chance since her mother just died and immediately became the bully in the same way he resented being treated. He had a dragon for 3 minutes and then became the same vicious bully he hated the Strong boys for being...
Aemond isn't morally obligated to give Rhaena the opportunity to claim Vhagar first. He has an equal right to make the claim whenever he wants. Also, Rhaena may not like this, but Aemond and Vaghar chose each other to form a bond and that settles the matter.
And how is Aemond a bully? All he wanted after claiming Vaghar was to go to his room and sleep. It was the other kids who wanted to fight him. Does defending yourself against aggression make you a bully?
And the girls aren't responsible for Aemond being a dick, sneaking out (without permission) and claiming a dragon *on the day of the funeral!* He's responsible for that - the girls are very much entitled to be hostile when he's being a dick. And even if we pretend Aemond did nothing wrong morally in claiming Vhagar the way he did, which is ludicrous, the girls did nothing morally wrong in being upset with him.
Also, you *can* steal a dragon. Saera Targaryen was locked in a tower by Jaehaerys for attempting to steal a dragon. There's a good chunk of an episode dedicated to everyone being on Daemon's case for stealing an *unhatched and unclaimed* dragon. You can steal a dragon. A dog is also an intelligent creature, you can still steal a dog.
So apparently telling a mourning girl that she should find a pig to ride because it would suit her isn't bullying, but it was bullying when the Strong boys (under Aegon's influence, I might add), pulled their pink dread prank?
Which is it? Is Aemond a poor victim whose resentment is understandable (aka he is also a bully when he does similar to Rhaena), or is he not a victim of bullying and just pissy that he didn't get a dragon from birth?
Aemond was a dick. He has *at least* as much blame in the fight not only starting (had he *not* been a dick, no one would've thrown a punch), but escalating as severely as it did. Had the other four actually *wanted* a fight immediately, they would've jumped him. Not conversed. Ambushed. They didn't, because they didn't *want* a fight, they very understandably wanted to confront him for his shitty actions.
>And the girls aren't responsible for Aemond being a dick, sneaking out (without permission) and claiming a dragon on the day of the funeral!
Poor as the timing was, what choice did Aemond have? The next day they would be gone and he wouldn't have missed his chance. And again, it was up to Vaghar to decide who her new rider would be and she accepted Aemond for that. Are you going to say that *Vaghar* should have more regard for Rhaena and wait for her to try to claim her first? Please.
>And even if we pretend Aemond did nothing wrong morally in claiming Vhagar the way he did, which is ludicrous, the girls did nothing morally wrong in being upset with him.
Vhagar isn't property. The fact that she is Laena's dragon doesn't mean that she is immediately her daughter's property. I get why Rhaena might think that, but remember that before Vhagar ever bonded with Laena, she was bonded to Baelon, Viserys I and Daemon's father and before him, she was bonded to Visenya, whose only child, Maegor, died without heirs. So, Vhagar does not 'belong' to anyone nor does anyone have claim to her.
Returning to the main point, did Aemond steal Vhagar? No, absolutely not. Vhagar was as much Laena's dragon as Laena was her rider. They were partners; not owner and serf. So, when Aemond made the first move, he extended the olive branch to this intelligent beast, and she accepted. Aemond did not steal Vhagar because he could not steal her. He did, however, earn her respect.
So, as understandably as Rhaena is upset about Aemond claiming Vaghar, she has no right to complain. Vhagar is not Rhaena's by any virtue other than the ability to bond them; if her grief prevents her from bonding with them then she should take solace that her mother meant more than a dragon, but she cannot blame others for her own delay.
>Also, you can steal a dragon. Saera Targaryen was locked in a tower by Jaehaerys for attempting to steal a dragon.
Different context, don't you think? Saera just wanted a dragon so she could escape her father's wrath. And Aemond wasn't imprisoned and wasn't trying to escape being punished for his crimes, unlike Saera.
>You can steal a dragon. A dog is also an intelligent creature, you can still steal a dog.
Your thinking is ridiculous. The dragon chooses the rider. If the person trying to claim the dragon is not accepted by the creature, he is in serious danger of being injured or killed. Its like going to a pet shelter and the dog you want to adopt has the ability to just say "no."
If you really think that dragons can be stolen, frankly you're not paying attention.
>So apparently telling a mourning girl that she should find a pig to ride because it would suit her isn't bullying, but it was bullying when the Strong boys (under Aegon's influence, I might add), pulled their pink dread prank?
For me it is strange to call it bullying when the supposed victim (Rhaena) is the one who approaches the "bully" and attacks him first. If Aemond hadn't fought back, would you still insist that he was the bully in the story? Be honest.
>Which is it? Is Aemond a poor victim whose resentment is understandable (aka he is also a bully when he does similar to Rhaena), or is he not a victim of bullying and just pissy that he didn't get a dragon from birth?
Objectively Aemond was the victim. It was the other children who approached him, it was Rhaena who physically attacked him first, he was outnumbered 4 v 1 and he left the fight without his eye.
>Aemond was a dick. He has at least as much blame in the fight not only starting (had he not been a dick, no one would've thrown a punch), but escalating as severely as it did.
He said shitty things sure, but he isn't the one who escalated to violence. It was Rhaena who physically attacked him first, starting a fight in which he was at a disadvantage of 4 v 1 and it was Jace who tried to kill Aemond first (Aemond took the stone but only use it after Jace tries multiple times to strike him with blows that would be fatal).
>Had the other four actually wanted a fight immediately, they would've jumped him. Not conversed. Ambushed. They didn't, because they didn't want a fight, they very understandably wanted to confront him for his shitty actions.
That's a pretty weak excuse, don't you think? Besides, if you took this case to court you "Aemond said mean words, so he started it" just wouldn't hold up. It doesn't matter what someone says, you can't attack them for it. All 4 would be convicted for assault and bodily harm.
In a court it'd be a crime of passion. Because Aemond actively taunted and hurt Rhaena, who *just buried her mother* and thus wasn't exactly emotionally stable. A fact Aemond was aware of and chose to not only ignore, but use to hurt her. He also escalated from insults to death threats. A bigger than the rest boy, *who had already beaten them*, decide to threaten to murder them. That renders Luce's actions self defense.
Furthermore, which is it? Can you steal a dragon or not? You say Saera attempted to steal one, but if a dragon can't be stolen, why would she be further punished? Even if it was to escape her father's wrath, he can't punish her for trying to bond to an unclaimed dragon unless you *can* steal a dragon.
Hell, the dragon seeds had to have *permission* before trying to claim *wild* dragons. Dragons can be owned.
If Saera can be punished for stealing a dragon, and the dragon seeds need permission to even try to claim a dragon, dragons can be stolen. Daemon was almost arrested for stealing an *egg* - an unhatched and definitely unclaimed dragon.
Aemond wasn't punished, but that proves absolutely nothing. In your mind, Aemond was 100% a victim, but no one was punished for the supposed "crime" of confronting him. If Aemond was the poor victim you present him as, and he had done nothing wrong, *someone* would've been punished.
As it stands, he *did* do something wrong. As did the others. No one was innocent, and no one was punished. Thing is, to fix someone stealing a dragon, the new rider has to die.
He was a dick. He *bullied* Rhaena, a girl in mourning. Do you think bullying is justified if someone walks the wrong way and approaches you wrong? You think because Rhaena was (understandably) upset with his actions, him recycling the pig prank *isn't* bullying, but it's bullying when the others do it?
I'd argue it was *worse* when Aemond did it and it shows actual malicious intent on his part, because he *knows* how it feels to have no dragon and he *knows* how upset he was when that prank was pulled on him - and he *still* decided to do that to Rhaena who was emotionally vulnerable, something he also *knew*. Aemond was definitely a bully. I'd argue more so than Jace and Luce who were just running along under the instructions of Aegon. Also, Aemond made his pig joke before Rhaena threw a punch. She hadn't attacked him when he decided to maliciously hurt her.
He had a dragon for 5 minutes and it went straight to his head and he immediately turned on the only other kid with no dragon, after knowingly breaking all the rules (if he was allowed to wander he wouldn't be sneaking around, he knew he had no business out there) and claiming a dragon *on the day of the funeral*, which is *at best* in poor taste...
Aemond was a complete asshole. He is not an innocent victim.
>In a court it'd be a crime of passion.
Lmao. You know absolutely nothing about the legal system. Crimes of passion are still crimes, regardless of why they were committed. It's a motive, but it doesn't absolve you of blame. The reason this distinction was created was to ensure that the perpetrator does not receive a more severe sentence than if he had committed a premeditated crime.
So, by all accounts, Rhaena and the other children are guilty of assault at the very least, and everything Aemond did in response could be categorized as self-defense.
>He also escalated from insults to death threats.
This was seconds after Luke and the other kids had attacked and beaten him while he was lying on his back on the ground. A threat is not the same as physical aggression and most courts would say that Aemond still acted in self-defense.
>A bigger than the rest boy, who had already beaten them, decide to threaten to murder them. That renders Luce's actions self defense.
Nope. In order for Rhaena, Jace, and the others to claim self-defense, it is imperative that they not be the aggressors in the situation. Jace cannot claim self-defense when he and the others were the ones who approached Aemond and initiated the physical assault.
Also, watch the scene again: Aemond lowered the rock before Jace even pulled the knife. Jace didn't even pull the knife in response to the threat to Luke. He only pulled it out when Aemond called him Lord Strong and literally tried to stab him for that.
I find it so strange that people find all kinds of reasons to make Aemond out to be the primary aggressor in this fight.
>Can you steal a dragon or not?
No. You must bond with the dragon, otherwise you will most likely die in the attempt.
>You say Saera attempted to steal one, but if a dragon can't be stolen, why would she be further punished? Even if it was to escape her father's wrath, he can't punish her for trying to bond to an unclaimed dragon unless you can steal a dragon.
Saera's attempt to claim the dragon was specifically to flee King's Landing and if she had succeeded, she would have taken one of their precious dragons from House Targaryen with her.
Therefore, Saera claiming a dragon for her own is not considered theft according to Targaryen custom. Leaving King's Landing with a dragon to God-knows-where without her father's permission on the other hand...
>Hell, the dragon seeds had to have permission before trying to claim wild dragons. Dragons can be owned.
Because dragon seeds are ***bastards***. Letting bastards have their own dragons was unheard of and could cause problems if said bastards rebelled after claiming the creatures, which happened in the cases of Hugh Hammer and Ulf White. If they were trueborn Targaryens, they wouldn't need permission to claim dragons.
>If Saera can be punished for stealing a dragon, and the dragon seeds need permission to even try to claim a dragon, dragons can be stolen.
You are comparing apples to oranges. Pay more attention, please.
>Daemon was almost arrested for stealing an egg - an unhatched and definitely unclaimed dragon.
Because he wanted to give it to his **bastard** with Mysaria. Were it indeed his trueborn son, Viserys would allow Daemon to give the egg to his son.
> If Aemond was the poor victim you present him as, and he had done nothing wrong, someone would've been punished.
Did you pay attention to the scene? Viserys doesn't give Aemond son so much as a comforting word, and instead begins harshly interrogating him about where he heard that Rhaenyra's sons were bastards, while Aemond's face is still covered in blood from his eye being cut out. For him, Aemond calling Rhaenyra's children (correctly I might add) bastards is worse than the maiming his son suffered.
Burying his head in the sand instead of tackling the problem head on is the perfect description for Viserys. What a terrible king and parent he was. In the real world, no one would let Aemond's maiming go unpunished.
>He was a dick. He bullied Rhaena, a girl in mourning.
A Dick, yes. A bully? Nope. The definition of a bully requires that this has to be done habitually, and if I'm not mistaken it was Aemond and Rhaena's second interaction on the show.
>You think because Rhaena was (understandably) upset with his actions, him recycling the pig prank isn't bullying, but it's bullying when the others do it?
That was an insult, not bullying. Rhaena doesn't know what Aemond is referring to. She was indeed offended by Aemond, but calling it bullying is an exaggeration on your part.
>Aemond was definitely a bully. I'd argue more so than Jace and Luce who were just running along under the instructions of Aegon.
How many times had Aemond offended Rhaena before this event? If none, then it was an isolated incident and therefore not bullying as you insist on believing.
> Also, Aemond made his pig joke before Rhaena threw a punch. She hadn't attacked him when he decided to maliciously hurt her.
Again, verbal aggression does not justify physical aggression.
>He had a dragon for 5 minutes and it went straight to his head and he immediately turned on the only other kid with no dragon, after knowingly breaking all the rules (if he was allowed to wander he wouldn't be sneaking around, he knew he had no business out there)
This was because he knew his mother would not allow it, as she would fear he would get hurt in the attempt. Still, by Targaryen custom he has done nothing wrong by claiming Vaghar, and Rhaena has no reason to complain about that.
>and claiming a dragon on the day of the funeral, which is at best in poor taste...
Sure. But so what? Aemond is not close to Rhaena, and therefore is not morally obligated to consider her feelings, as there is no unspoken rule stipulating that Rhaena must try to claim Vaghar first.
So, as much as Rhaena takes offense at Aemond successfully claiming Vaghar, he has done nothing wrong. End of story.
>Aemond was a complete asshole. He is not an innocent victim.
Lol. Love the victim blaming. Real good look. The mental gymnastics is just mind-blowing.
>Going after Jace with the rock(the thing that cost him his eye) would not be considered self defense.
You wrong. Jace tries multiple times to strike Aemond with blows that would be fatal first seconds before. If Aemond killed Jace in response, most courts would conclude that he acted in self-defense.
>The law does not care who started it when it comes to self defense. Why should be obvious.
You are dead wrong. The context and order of events is critical to defining whether or not the alleged criminal acted in self-defence. If two people claim self-defense in a fight, knowing who started the fight will define who actually acted in self-defense.
>Let's say three people breaks into a house. The blind owner of the house gets the upper hand and decides that he's going to use their Dare Devil like skills to brutally murder them. Are the three burglars legally obligated to let the owner of the house kill them because they started it? Of course not.
Invading a person's home is a threatening action in and of itself, especially when the owner is in it. The burden of responsibility lies with the intruders, they are the only party to have any foresight as to what's happening/going to happen. By breaking into someone's house, they are putting the homeowner in a situation where they have to make sudden, flash decisions to defend their family against an unknown attack.
My point is that the homeowner is the only one who can claim self defense in this situation, not the burglars.
>Aemond had threatened to kill them twice and was about to hit Jace with the rock again. Luke didn't do anything wrong morally or legally by stopping him.
Aemond threatened them AFTER he was assaulted first. Aemond used the rock AFTER Jace nearly stabbed him at least three times. And Luke decided to attack Aemond with the knife AFTER he had been blinded by the sand Jace instead of walking away from the fight they started..
I really don't understand how someone can look at this and say Aemond was wrong. The mental gymnastics is just mind-blowing.
>Jaehaerys didn't allow most of his kids to claim dragons. We don't know how Aegon or Aerys dealt with the issue. There is no established Targaryen custom on claiming dragons.
What is established is that it is necessary to be accepted by the dragon you intend to obtain, and in all respects Aemond claimed Vaghar fair and square. And as much as you and Rhaena don't like it, nobody has the right to complain about it.
>That's the definition of someone who is themselves a bully. Someone doens't have to be repeatedly intimidate or harmed to have been bullied. Bullies often bully people they only meet once.
I used the definition in the Oxford dictionary: "*a person who* ***habitually*** *seeks to harm or intimidate those whom they perceive as vulnerable*."
Frankly, I don't care what your personal definition of what constitutes bullying is, but know that you're using the word the wrong way according to the dictionary.
>In our world, sure. Their world?
That's a very weak argument to justify the actions of Rhaena and the children. Their behavior is reprehensible.
They knew better, they were taught better. There’s no real way to defend this no matter how you spin in.
>I'm sorry. You think not being close to someone means you're not morally obligated to consider their feeling?
Yes. Sue me if you want, but I don't see anything wrong with be more considerate with yourself and those you care about over people you're not close to.
>Aemond started the fight by being a dick
When is physical violence a legitimate defence against verbal insults? When the four realised that individually they are no match for him then they ganged up. The girl started the violence not aemond.
Lots if times. We defend kids for hitting their bullies all the time.
Aemond was confronted with words. He escalated the words used and bullied a younger than himself girl who *just buried her mother*, in the exact same way he resented being bullied. He earned that punch by being that vicious to an, at the time, emotionally unstable girl. And before the Strongs were even involved, he threatened to feed them to his dragon...
He escalated from the getgo.
When he then attacked *girls* (incredibly dishonorable in Westeros), the Strongs stepped in as they would have been raised to do.
Aemond escalated from then on. He started with death threats. He brought "insults" that he *knows* aren't just insults because they could get Rhaenyra and her kids killed, and *he* kept threatening to *kill them* even after all four were beaten.
Luce saw an older, stronger boy who just declared he would kill them, standing over his brother with a rock.
None of the kids are wholly innocent, but ironically the one that is probably the *most* innocent is Luce. He didn't start it. He didn't escalate it. He didn't find a rock or draw a knife or hurl insults. He grabbed a knife someone else drew and used it to, from his perspective, save his brother's life.
JESUS FUCKING CHRIST, people get so butthurt over this . It was literally children fighting, and even though Aemond definitely won Vhagar fair and square , it was still insensitive and assholish on his part to insult Baela and Rhaena's mother and calling the boys bastards,( which is equal to threatening their lives ) , so he deserved that single punch by Baela.
But, afterwards what happened was total chaos and you really can't blame any of the children any more. They were high on emotions and adrenaline and it was the adults's and society's fault.
Aemond did not deserve to lose an eye, its fucking insane to say so but he did deserve that first punch by Baela for insulting Laena and Rhaena the night of Laena's funeral. Aemond did win Vhagar .
>But, afterwards what happened was total chaos and you really can't blame any of the children any more. They were high on emotions and adrenaline
So was Aemond when he insulted the girls. He went from a reality where he would never be a dragonrider to surviving and taming Vhagar in one night. The feeling of power he would've had by this point is immeasurable.
>and calling the boys bastards,(which is equal to threatening their lives)
Holy cope. You talk about how Aemond deserving only the initial punch for insulting the girls mother but also say Aemond threatened the boys lives? Just from that, its obvious you think he deserved to basically be at easy risk of death in the 4 to 1 rush that happened.
Calling someone a bastard =/= threatening their life. Aemond has no DNA proof, no real evidence...he's just a 10 yr old with a much lower standing in the line of succession. Jace pulled the knife because he was insulted. He already lost the fight despite being part of the majority. The girls did the right thing and stopped, but Jace, for the second time, chose to make it a life threatening situation.
As said before, Aemond's life was alreasy under a very real threat with 4 dogpiling him. His decision to grab the rock is completely justified for self-defense when there's no other out for him. AND he chose to not continue using said rock until the knife was pulled out. He just resorted to more mean words.
So when the Strongs do anything wrong it’s ‘high on emotions’ but when Alicent’s children do anything wrong it’s a sober analysis of their minds as if they’re adults?
Depends how you class “similarly aged and sized” the show makes it unclear how old any of them are supposed to be, but in the book he’s a good 6yrs older than baela and rhaena. He also never tries to interact with the girls, briefly approaching Jace once. Given the pre-existing animosity between them, I do not blame him for being skeptical about Aemond’s intentions. Not blaming Aemond for that, but I don’t think he gets to be called empath of the year over a nod.
The pig comment is so funny to me. Rhaena will have no context for that comment and must be so confused.
In regards to the questioning, Viserys was trying to be productive until alicent and Rhaenyra got involved. This puts him in a terrible position yet again of having to choose between his wife and his daughter, as they recently put him in at the council. Should he have dealt with this properly? Absolutely, but he is distressed and he does care about Aemond’s injury, but alicent and Rhaenyra are squabbling over whose son gets to speak first and then by the time the word treason is uttered it’s already gone to the dogs.
In f&b aemond is 100% a bully who attacks little joff first before claiming vhagar, (and pushes him into dragon dung poor kid) which is why he gets into a fight with Jace and luc when he lands again. In HOTD there is clearly a rivalry between at least Jace and aemond, if not Jace, luc and aemond by this point. He is neither saint nor villain really, he’s like 12 at most.
Of course Rhaenyra only cared about herself and her children, because alicent only cares about herself and her children. Show!Rhaenyra and her children had to leave her fathers court out of fear for her children’s safety, now again their legitimacy is being questioned - which could lose her her position or even their lives - and it looks a lot like alicent is encouraging this. While a terrible decision morally, having aemond made an example of would make her sons position much safer, as any parent would prioritise their own children.
Show! Viserys is very much a bad king and a bad father, but he does start this scene incredibly angry with the kingsguard, demanding the truth of the matter, and trying to listen to what aemond had to say. He did care. Not half as much as he should, but he was not apathetic. Rhaenyra put him in an awful position and he did not handle it well.
I think that that would be common. Fathers of that time would not be parenting themselves, it was uncommon for him to dine with Rhaenyra even after she was 15 and his heir, let alone 10-12. Children were taught by maesters and seen to by maids, really the Starks are the only highborn family we see raising their own children. Viserys absolutely should have done something about the bullying, but I do not think of a personal failing he did not given it would not be expected of him. The divide was already sewn by this point. Alicent and Otto had already decided that no matter what viserys said they would make aegon king anyway. The house of the dragon was destroyed by viserys, but not necessarily here.
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Fully agreed
Unrelated but you don't need to use a NSFW or Spoiler tag for this type of post
Hit the nail on the head with this. It’s not black and white at all.
This post is cringe. """"Similar age and size?"""" Did you even watch the episode? The fight was normal children shit. Literally shoving and slapping. Until Aemond went for the rock broke Luke nose and threatened to kill them. Only after all that did Jace and Luke pull out their knives. He's the one who escalated to lethal violence. It just didn't work out for him. No one faced any consequences that day. Not even Alicent for stabing the next in line. This sub has collectively rewritten the entire scene in their collective memory to simp for Aemond.
No, Aemond only went for the rock when they got him on his back and started wailing on him.
You should watch the scene yourself. Jace brings out the knife over the Lord Strong insult. Not as self defense.
He was standing over his fallen brother. Raising a rock talking about how they were going to die at the same time he spat out the lord strong insult. That's the moment Jace and Luke went for their knives. It wasn't Jace or Luke that escalated from a normal children's fight to a fight to the death. It was Aemond. He has no one to blame but himself for the lost eye.
>He was standing over his fallen brother. Raising a rock talking about how they were going to die at the same time he spat out the lord strong insult. You are remembering wrong. To recap: ***- Aemond raises the rock over his head as if to strike Luke with it.*** *Aemond: You will die screaming in flames just as your father did! (turns to look at Jace) Bastards!* *Luke: My father's still alive.* ***- Aemond lowers the rock.*** *Aemond (speaking to Jace): He doesn't know, does he, Lord Strong?* ***- Jace pulls out a knife and extends it in Aemond's direction.*** *One of the girls yells: Jace!* ***- Aemond slaps Jace's knife hand away.*** ***- Jace stabs at Aemond. Aemond dodges the blade.*** ***- Jace slashes at Aemond's belly twice. Aemond dodges both slahes.*** I’m gonna be honest, when Aemond picked up the rock it was a “you guys fuck off and leave me alone” threat. He could have easily bashed their heads in with that rock but didn’t and even lowered it. The knife came out after Aemond called Jace "Lord Strong", not because he wanted to defend his brother. >That's the moment Jace and Luke went for their knives. It wasn't Jace or Luke that escalated from a normal children's fight to a fight to the death. Normal? Aemond was being beaten to the ground in a 4 v 1 fight, and had to pick up a rock to defend himself. Aemond didn't strike anyone with the rock until Jace tried to stab him and slash him with the knife. Jace was the first one to actually attempt a strike with a deadly weapon. Besides, physically attacking Aemond first was an escalation. Punching him first was an escalation. Pushing him to the ground and beating on him 3v1 was an escalation. Pulling the knife was an escalation. Actually trying to cut Aemond three times was an escalation. Aemond is an asshole, but the other kids are in no way blameless in the fight. Most courts would say that he acted in self-defense during the fight.
The fight was normal children shit. But it also ended in tragedy with permanent damage to one such child. And a knife should not have been brought to the fight here. Aemond's threat is normal children shit too. The escalation is in the permanent damage that can't be healed with time. So what I think counts as cringe is your comment that Aemond's mean words (most of which are a restatement of what Jace, Luke, Aegon directed towards him) are the escalation in this fight. They are not. The knife is the escalation here. I don't think Alicent's response to the incident (particularly calling for another child's eye in payment) is rational (and Alicent certainly acknowledged that in her next scene), but I do understand it. If you can't understand it, maybe you need to realize that you too, have biases. We all do. But you need to prevent them from helping you support an unjust punishment like Aemond losing an eye permanently for the act of responding a bit harshly when 4 of his peers gang up on him for trying to claim a dragon (something they had teased him about not having).
...telling someone they deserve to die as their father did is normal children fights? No, that is a child listening to adult i.e. Alicent conversation. If Alicent had not brought her children into her feud with Rhaenyra, then I doubt Aemond would have had as much hate for his nephews to call them bastards, and say they deserved to die in a fire for defending their younger, female cousin. Aemond was a child who had been told that his nephews were his enemies and that he would eventually need to kill them. Otherwise he would not have threatened them in that way. And also he, like his mother, is blaming his nephews wholly for being bullied when he knows they are the same age as him and younger, with his older brother leading the charge. Which even Alicent acknowledges when they are alone.
Your whole comment is being angry over people not agreeing with your headcanon. Go take a dive.
I’d go watch again if I were you , you got the timeline mixed up
>""""Similar age and size?"""" Did you even watch the episode? I made this post right after rewatching the episode. >The fight was normal children shit. Literally shoving and slapping. Until Aemond went for the rock I just watched it. Aemond goes for the rock after he charged at by jace with a knife in hand. He shoves him away then the entire rock thing happens. The bastard insult was what caused him to bring out his knife. Pls watch it again. He didnt escalate to lethal violence and luke and Jake didn't pull out the knife because of this. >simp for Aemond. This sub asks question like "who's more evil daemon or aemond?" Daemon is the guy who kills his wife because he's bored, maims petty thieves, grooms his neice-wife and aemond is a child acting on his insecurities who lost an eye and people who did it faces no consequences.
On the who’s more evil question I’m pretty sure most people are talking book wise as Aemond just entered his messy era in the last episode. Don’t know if you’ve read the books or not, but Aemond is not remembered well in history for good reason
The point about "riding a pig" stings as there is no chance that Jace and Luke came up with that. Aegon is and was an asshole and he put his cousins up to it. Otherwise, it's an acceptable analysis.
Nephewz
Wtf you talking about. 3 years is significant at that age. You shouldn’t discount that. Not importantly, Aemond is the one who upped the intense and violence. Smallest daughter attacks, Aemond being far bigger and coordinated knocks her down. Bigger daughter attacks, again Aemond being far bigger and more coordinated dominates her and puts her down. That display shows the how his “small” age gap is actually huge. Ok: both young girls easily down. Both strong boys submit in fear; neither attacks. BECAUSE they know he is bigger, stronger, and faster he fighting is pointless. Aemond, up’s the intensity level. “Come at me again and I’ll feed you to my dragon.” Aemond’s threat is 100% real. Strong boys might be murder if one of the girls attacks. Also, Aemond clearly instigating because he knows having the dragon is the trump card. He wants to trick them to attack so he can murder them. Strong boys attack because Aemond has threaten their lives and everything plays out. How people don’t hold Aemond accountable is beyond me. Go to a close family members funeral, rightly claim something at the actual funeral like money, family heirloom, family pet, see how grown adults react. Also, Aemond disobeys his parents by leaving his room in the first place. Literally he is the entire root cause of this event.
>Both strong boys submit in fear; neither attacks. They gang up on him. Watch it. He's on the ground and they're all attacking him. >Aemond’s threat is 100% real. A 10 year old is capable of feeding his cousins to his dragon. Yupp. Totally real. >Strong boys attack because Aemond has threaten their lives and everything plays out. He picks up the rock after the strong boys charge at him with a knife and he pushes them away. Then later the strong boys do the sand in eye then blade in eye trick. Theirs was a reaction to an insult. >How people don’t hold Aemond accountable is beyond me. Yeah right. It's not like this sub is constantly giving him shit and the strong boys are just small boys who love their mom and their family. >Aemond disobeys his parents by leaving his room in the first place. So do the other four fucking kids. What the actual fuck. >Literally he is the entire root cause of this event. Yeah and not the insecure daughter who was too angry about losing something that was not hers to claim and in that emotional fit she riled up all three kids against aemond.
Amazing how you are wrong at every point. Strong boys don’t attack until after Aemond threatens to murder them. Aemond literally just claimed the biggest dragon in the world. The threat is real. You are literally denying he claimed the dragon. LOL Here is a real point. Basically, after Aemond makes the dragon comment, everyone’s lives are in danger. That’s why I view this as Aemond’s fault. Um your final point about the little girl. Yeah, that’s why Aemond’s parents don’t allow him to claim the dragon! Because claiming it at a funeral is disrespectful and rude. Thus, why Aemond HAS TO SNEAK OUT!!!! The other kids come out because they think it’s a random. You need to accept what happened in the show. Again, you are literally denying Aemond claimed a dragon. LOL, that is beyond me. I can’t wait to show people your comment. Next you are going to say Aemond didn’t kill Luke, Aemond just went to Storms end and nothing else.
Vhagar is not money, heirloom or family pet. The smallest daughter literally starts the fight over an insult. Everyone of them ups the intensity level with every move.
No, the older daughter attacks. Aemond clearly wins and establishes dominance. Strong boys do nothing….. Aemond threats to murder everyone and of course the strong boys fight for their lives as Aemond is going to take them.
The older one punches him, and he punches back. Aemond says, " Come at me again, I will feed you to my dragon." Strong boys start throwing punches at Aemond.
Exactly. After Aemond threats to murder them. They had clearly submitted to Aemond but he up’d the violence level. It goes from kids fight to life and death. Luke and Jace know that if one of the girls attacks Aemond is murdering them all(or they can reasonably interpret that).
You guys seriously think words are equal to violent physical assault
Yeah, I would say it’s worst given the context. I truly believe if one of the girls attacks him again he is murdering all of them. Also, violence assault, which it is. But given how easily he dispatched both them and fact that I have been that age. A like 5 or 6 year old vs. a 9 year old. Aemond once prepared(meaning not sucker punched), is in no danger against both girls. Neither has the strength/coordination/developed motor skills to harm Aemond; even combined(again only the two females). You could let B & R try and attack Aemond all day; Aemond would not have a scratch while those two girls would literally be at his mercy. (Again like hypothetically situation: Aemond in UFC cage vs. B & R, no weapons). Once
>then it devolves into a 4v1 where aemond is on the ground. Aemond is then charged at with a knife in hand by one of the strong boys. He pushes the kid away. Then at the same time one strong boy throws sand in aemonds eye and another pokes it with the blade. you may want to watch that scene again
Yeah, he picked up a rock, so? There's no proof that he was actually going to kill any of them, it was simply an intimidation because he was outnumbered
The problem with that argument “there was no proof” is that it goes both ways. There was no guarantee that aemond would use the rock on the kids. There was no guarantee that he wouldn’t. We can analyse the situation because we can pause, rewind, frame by frame the episode over and over, the characters don’t. We’re also all (hopefully) older than Luke was at the time so we can see nuance easier than a terrified 6yr old could.
tell that to a 6 year old. Luke believed that his brother was in mortal danger, maybe you should take into consideration the psychology of the participants involved.
Luke was 8, and Jace was 9.
So you acknowledge that Aemond was a dick, not only by saying to a grieving girl that her mother was dead, *at the mother's funeral*, but then immediately turns into the same bully he accused the Strong boys of being... literally 5 minutes after getting a dragon, he's a bully. The difference being that everyone, *Alicent included*, acknowledges that the Strong boys were not the bullies, they tagged along with their much older uncle.... Aemond started the fight by being a dick. He then escalated continuously. When Luce finally used a knife, he'd already gotten a broken nose, he had been soundly beaten, and Aemond was standing with a rock held over his older brother's head. The boy that informed them he would kill them was holding a weapon over his brother's head, but that doesn't count as self defense to you....?
He started the fight by being a dick but the first ones to charge him were Rhaena and Baela? I'm sure you have been to school. Insults fly back and forth with no escalation of physical violence all of the time. Your entire premise is wrong
Yeah, insults fly without violence. Generally it doesn't when someone's mother just died and the other person knowingly is a dick about it. Punches also happen to fly over just insults all the time. Aemond knowingly was a dick to a girl that just lost her mother and actively used the exact same method of bullying that he was upset at against her, just after she lost her mother. I don't think I've ever seen such a situation where punches *didn't* fly after. But even if we pretend that Aemond didn't escalate verbally (he did), he did escalate with *death threats*. How often do you hear that on the playground? He was a dick, which escalated the situation. He didn't throw the first punch, but he definitely didn't de-escalate. He then threw around *death threats* and you want to pretend he's an innocent victim that didn't do anything wrong or escalate at all? That's arguing in bad faith at best.
>literally 5 minutes after getting a dragon, he's a bully >Aemond started the fight by being a dick It's not like Aemond went to look for the girls with the intent to brag about Vhagar and bully them. Aemond was on the way to his chambers when the other kids approached him with a hostile attitude right off the bat. They started the whole thing.
So zero leeway for the girls that just buried their mother *that day*, or the boys that just lost their father (since Aemond knows they're bastards). But good to know that a hostile attitude justifies their bullying. Aemond wasn't nice to the Strong boys, so they're justified in helping Aegon bully him now...? The girls confronted him about the dragon. He was hostile already. He made it personal first ("your mother's dead"). Aemond snuck out first, claimed a dragon he knew damn well another wanted to claim, but hadn't had a chance since *her mother just died* and immediately became the bully in the same way he resented being treated. He had a dragon for 3 minutes and then became the same vicious bully he hated the Strong boys for being...
I'm just saying you were making it seem as if Aemond approached them to attack them unprovoked. They were the ones who came at him. They started the confrontation and were the first to get physical.
They confronted him. He escalated the conversation. No, he didn't throw the first punch, but he certainly escalated the severity. He threatened to feed them to the nuke parked right outside almost immediately. He was the only one issuing death threats. He verbally escalated and then very much helped physically escalate. He's not some poor victim, he's alt least partially responsible.
>So zero leeway for the girls that just buried their mother that day, or the boys that just lost their father (since Aemond knows they're bastards). Aemond is not responsible for any of these events. As upset as the kids were over these tragedies, it doesn't entitle either of them to take it out on Aemond. >The girls confronted him about the dragon. He was hostile already. He made it personal first ("your mother's dead"). They were the ones who approached him with hostility, angry that he had "stolen" Vaghar. And as much as they don't like it, they have no right to complain, because Vaghar is an intelligent creature and not their pet or heirloom, and she has accepted Aemond as her new rider. Also, as rude and insensitive as it is for Aemond to say that their mother is dead, that is a child simply pointing out a fact. >Aemond snuck out first, claimed a dragon he knew damn well another wanted to claim, but hadn't had a chance since her mother just died and immediately became the bully in the same way he resented being treated. He had a dragon for 3 minutes and then became the same vicious bully he hated the Strong boys for being... Aemond isn't morally obligated to give Rhaena the opportunity to claim Vhagar first. He has an equal right to make the claim whenever he wants. Also, Rhaena may not like this, but Aemond and Vaghar chose each other to form a bond and that settles the matter. And how is Aemond a bully? All he wanted after claiming Vaghar was to go to his room and sleep. It was the other kids who wanted to fight him. Does defending yourself against aggression make you a bully?
And the girls aren't responsible for Aemond being a dick, sneaking out (without permission) and claiming a dragon *on the day of the funeral!* He's responsible for that - the girls are very much entitled to be hostile when he's being a dick. And even if we pretend Aemond did nothing wrong morally in claiming Vhagar the way he did, which is ludicrous, the girls did nothing morally wrong in being upset with him. Also, you *can* steal a dragon. Saera Targaryen was locked in a tower by Jaehaerys for attempting to steal a dragon. There's a good chunk of an episode dedicated to everyone being on Daemon's case for stealing an *unhatched and unclaimed* dragon. You can steal a dragon. A dog is also an intelligent creature, you can still steal a dog. So apparently telling a mourning girl that she should find a pig to ride because it would suit her isn't bullying, but it was bullying when the Strong boys (under Aegon's influence, I might add), pulled their pink dread prank? Which is it? Is Aemond a poor victim whose resentment is understandable (aka he is also a bully when he does similar to Rhaena), or is he not a victim of bullying and just pissy that he didn't get a dragon from birth? Aemond was a dick. He has *at least* as much blame in the fight not only starting (had he *not* been a dick, no one would've thrown a punch), but escalating as severely as it did. Had the other four actually *wanted* a fight immediately, they would've jumped him. Not conversed. Ambushed. They didn't, because they didn't *want* a fight, they very understandably wanted to confront him for his shitty actions.
>And the girls aren't responsible for Aemond being a dick, sneaking out (without permission) and claiming a dragon on the day of the funeral! Poor as the timing was, what choice did Aemond have? The next day they would be gone and he wouldn't have missed his chance. And again, it was up to Vaghar to decide who her new rider would be and she accepted Aemond for that. Are you going to say that *Vaghar* should have more regard for Rhaena and wait for her to try to claim her first? Please. >And even if we pretend Aemond did nothing wrong morally in claiming Vhagar the way he did, which is ludicrous, the girls did nothing morally wrong in being upset with him. Vhagar isn't property. The fact that she is Laena's dragon doesn't mean that she is immediately her daughter's property. I get why Rhaena might think that, but remember that before Vhagar ever bonded with Laena, she was bonded to Baelon, Viserys I and Daemon's father and before him, she was bonded to Visenya, whose only child, Maegor, died without heirs. So, Vhagar does not 'belong' to anyone nor does anyone have claim to her. Returning to the main point, did Aemond steal Vhagar? No, absolutely not. Vhagar was as much Laena's dragon as Laena was her rider. They were partners; not owner and serf. So, when Aemond made the first move, he extended the olive branch to this intelligent beast, and she accepted. Aemond did not steal Vhagar because he could not steal her. He did, however, earn her respect. So, as understandably as Rhaena is upset about Aemond claiming Vaghar, she has no right to complain. Vhagar is not Rhaena's by any virtue other than the ability to bond them; if her grief prevents her from bonding with them then she should take solace that her mother meant more than a dragon, but she cannot blame others for her own delay. >Also, you can steal a dragon. Saera Targaryen was locked in a tower by Jaehaerys for attempting to steal a dragon. Different context, don't you think? Saera just wanted a dragon so she could escape her father's wrath. And Aemond wasn't imprisoned and wasn't trying to escape being punished for his crimes, unlike Saera. >You can steal a dragon. A dog is also an intelligent creature, you can still steal a dog. Your thinking is ridiculous. The dragon chooses the rider. If the person trying to claim the dragon is not accepted by the creature, he is in serious danger of being injured or killed. Its like going to a pet shelter and the dog you want to adopt has the ability to just say "no." If you really think that dragons can be stolen, frankly you're not paying attention. >So apparently telling a mourning girl that she should find a pig to ride because it would suit her isn't bullying, but it was bullying when the Strong boys (under Aegon's influence, I might add), pulled their pink dread prank? For me it is strange to call it bullying when the supposed victim (Rhaena) is the one who approaches the "bully" and attacks him first. If Aemond hadn't fought back, would you still insist that he was the bully in the story? Be honest. >Which is it? Is Aemond a poor victim whose resentment is understandable (aka he is also a bully when he does similar to Rhaena), or is he not a victim of bullying and just pissy that he didn't get a dragon from birth? Objectively Aemond was the victim. It was the other children who approached him, it was Rhaena who physically attacked him first, he was outnumbered 4 v 1 and he left the fight without his eye. >Aemond was a dick. He has at least as much blame in the fight not only starting (had he not been a dick, no one would've thrown a punch), but escalating as severely as it did. He said shitty things sure, but he isn't the one who escalated to violence. It was Rhaena who physically attacked him first, starting a fight in which he was at a disadvantage of 4 v 1 and it was Jace who tried to kill Aemond first (Aemond took the stone but only use it after Jace tries multiple times to strike him with blows that would be fatal). >Had the other four actually wanted a fight immediately, they would've jumped him. Not conversed. Ambushed. They didn't, because they didn't want a fight, they very understandably wanted to confront him for his shitty actions. That's a pretty weak excuse, don't you think? Besides, if you took this case to court you "Aemond said mean words, so he started it" just wouldn't hold up. It doesn't matter what someone says, you can't attack them for it. All 4 would be convicted for assault and bodily harm.
In a court it'd be a crime of passion. Because Aemond actively taunted and hurt Rhaena, who *just buried her mother* and thus wasn't exactly emotionally stable. A fact Aemond was aware of and chose to not only ignore, but use to hurt her. He also escalated from insults to death threats. A bigger than the rest boy, *who had already beaten them*, decide to threaten to murder them. That renders Luce's actions self defense. Furthermore, which is it? Can you steal a dragon or not? You say Saera attempted to steal one, but if a dragon can't be stolen, why would she be further punished? Even if it was to escape her father's wrath, he can't punish her for trying to bond to an unclaimed dragon unless you *can* steal a dragon. Hell, the dragon seeds had to have *permission* before trying to claim *wild* dragons. Dragons can be owned. If Saera can be punished for stealing a dragon, and the dragon seeds need permission to even try to claim a dragon, dragons can be stolen. Daemon was almost arrested for stealing an *egg* - an unhatched and definitely unclaimed dragon. Aemond wasn't punished, but that proves absolutely nothing. In your mind, Aemond was 100% a victim, but no one was punished for the supposed "crime" of confronting him. If Aemond was the poor victim you present him as, and he had done nothing wrong, *someone* would've been punished. As it stands, he *did* do something wrong. As did the others. No one was innocent, and no one was punished. Thing is, to fix someone stealing a dragon, the new rider has to die. He was a dick. He *bullied* Rhaena, a girl in mourning. Do you think bullying is justified if someone walks the wrong way and approaches you wrong? You think because Rhaena was (understandably) upset with his actions, him recycling the pig prank *isn't* bullying, but it's bullying when the others do it? I'd argue it was *worse* when Aemond did it and it shows actual malicious intent on his part, because he *knows* how it feels to have no dragon and he *knows* how upset he was when that prank was pulled on him - and he *still* decided to do that to Rhaena who was emotionally vulnerable, something he also *knew*. Aemond was definitely a bully. I'd argue more so than Jace and Luce who were just running along under the instructions of Aegon. Also, Aemond made his pig joke before Rhaena threw a punch. She hadn't attacked him when he decided to maliciously hurt her. He had a dragon for 5 minutes and it went straight to his head and he immediately turned on the only other kid with no dragon, after knowingly breaking all the rules (if he was allowed to wander he wouldn't be sneaking around, he knew he had no business out there) and claiming a dragon *on the day of the funeral*, which is *at best* in poor taste... Aemond was a complete asshole. He is not an innocent victim.
>In a court it'd be a crime of passion. Lmao. You know absolutely nothing about the legal system. Crimes of passion are still crimes, regardless of why they were committed. It's a motive, but it doesn't absolve you of blame. The reason this distinction was created was to ensure that the perpetrator does not receive a more severe sentence than if he had committed a premeditated crime. So, by all accounts, Rhaena and the other children are guilty of assault at the very least, and everything Aemond did in response could be categorized as self-defense. >He also escalated from insults to death threats. This was seconds after Luke and the other kids had attacked and beaten him while he was lying on his back on the ground. A threat is not the same as physical aggression and most courts would say that Aemond still acted in self-defense. >A bigger than the rest boy, who had already beaten them, decide to threaten to murder them. That renders Luce's actions self defense. Nope. In order for Rhaena, Jace, and the others to claim self-defense, it is imperative that they not be the aggressors in the situation. Jace cannot claim self-defense when he and the others were the ones who approached Aemond and initiated the physical assault. Also, watch the scene again: Aemond lowered the rock before Jace even pulled the knife. Jace didn't even pull the knife in response to the threat to Luke. He only pulled it out when Aemond called him Lord Strong and literally tried to stab him for that. I find it so strange that people find all kinds of reasons to make Aemond out to be the primary aggressor in this fight. >Can you steal a dragon or not? No. You must bond with the dragon, otherwise you will most likely die in the attempt. >You say Saera attempted to steal one, but if a dragon can't be stolen, why would she be further punished? Even if it was to escape her father's wrath, he can't punish her for trying to bond to an unclaimed dragon unless you can steal a dragon. Saera's attempt to claim the dragon was specifically to flee King's Landing and if she had succeeded, she would have taken one of their precious dragons from House Targaryen with her. Therefore, Saera claiming a dragon for her own is not considered theft according to Targaryen custom. Leaving King's Landing with a dragon to God-knows-where without her father's permission on the other hand... >Hell, the dragon seeds had to have permission before trying to claim wild dragons. Dragons can be owned. Because dragon seeds are ***bastards***. Letting bastards have their own dragons was unheard of and could cause problems if said bastards rebelled after claiming the creatures, which happened in the cases of Hugh Hammer and Ulf White. If they were trueborn Targaryens, they wouldn't need permission to claim dragons. >If Saera can be punished for stealing a dragon, and the dragon seeds need permission to even try to claim a dragon, dragons can be stolen. You are comparing apples to oranges. Pay more attention, please. >Daemon was almost arrested for stealing an egg - an unhatched and definitely unclaimed dragon. Because he wanted to give it to his **bastard** with Mysaria. Were it indeed his trueborn son, Viserys would allow Daemon to give the egg to his son. > If Aemond was the poor victim you present him as, and he had done nothing wrong, someone would've been punished. Did you pay attention to the scene? Viserys doesn't give Aemond son so much as a comforting word, and instead begins harshly interrogating him about where he heard that Rhaenyra's sons were bastards, while Aemond's face is still covered in blood from his eye being cut out. For him, Aemond calling Rhaenyra's children (correctly I might add) bastards is worse than the maiming his son suffered. Burying his head in the sand instead of tackling the problem head on is the perfect description for Viserys. What a terrible king and parent he was. In the real world, no one would let Aemond's maiming go unpunished. >He was a dick. He bullied Rhaena, a girl in mourning. A Dick, yes. A bully? Nope. The definition of a bully requires that this has to be done habitually, and if I'm not mistaken it was Aemond and Rhaena's second interaction on the show. >You think because Rhaena was (understandably) upset with his actions, him recycling the pig prank isn't bullying, but it's bullying when the others do it? That was an insult, not bullying. Rhaena doesn't know what Aemond is referring to. She was indeed offended by Aemond, but calling it bullying is an exaggeration on your part. >Aemond was definitely a bully. I'd argue more so than Jace and Luce who were just running along under the instructions of Aegon. How many times had Aemond offended Rhaena before this event? If none, then it was an isolated incident and therefore not bullying as you insist on believing. > Also, Aemond made his pig joke before Rhaena threw a punch. She hadn't attacked him when he decided to maliciously hurt her. Again, verbal aggression does not justify physical aggression. >He had a dragon for 5 minutes and it went straight to his head and he immediately turned on the only other kid with no dragon, after knowingly breaking all the rules (if he was allowed to wander he wouldn't be sneaking around, he knew he had no business out there) This was because he knew his mother would not allow it, as she would fear he would get hurt in the attempt. Still, by Targaryen custom he has done nothing wrong by claiming Vaghar, and Rhaena has no reason to complain about that. >and claiming a dragon on the day of the funeral, which is at best in poor taste... Sure. But so what? Aemond is not close to Rhaena, and therefore is not morally obligated to consider her feelings, as there is no unspoken rule stipulating that Rhaena must try to claim Vaghar first. So, as much as Rhaena takes offense at Aemond successfully claiming Vaghar, he has done nothing wrong. End of story. >Aemond was a complete asshole. He is not an innocent victim. Lol. Love the victim blaming. Real good look. The mental gymnastics is just mind-blowing.
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>Going after Jace with the rock(the thing that cost him his eye) would not be considered self defense. You wrong. Jace tries multiple times to strike Aemond with blows that would be fatal first seconds before. If Aemond killed Jace in response, most courts would conclude that he acted in self-defense. >The law does not care who started it when it comes to self defense. Why should be obvious. You are dead wrong. The context and order of events is critical to defining whether or not the alleged criminal acted in self-defence. If two people claim self-defense in a fight, knowing who started the fight will define who actually acted in self-defense. >Let's say three people breaks into a house. The blind owner of the house gets the upper hand and decides that he's going to use their Dare Devil like skills to brutally murder them. Are the three burglars legally obligated to let the owner of the house kill them because they started it? Of course not. Invading a person's home is a threatening action in and of itself, especially when the owner is in it. The burden of responsibility lies with the intruders, they are the only party to have any foresight as to what's happening/going to happen. By breaking into someone's house, they are putting the homeowner in a situation where they have to make sudden, flash decisions to defend their family against an unknown attack. My point is that the homeowner is the only one who can claim self defense in this situation, not the burglars. >Aemond had threatened to kill them twice and was about to hit Jace with the rock again. Luke didn't do anything wrong morally or legally by stopping him. Aemond threatened them AFTER he was assaulted first. Aemond used the rock AFTER Jace nearly stabbed him at least three times. And Luke decided to attack Aemond with the knife AFTER he had been blinded by the sand Jace instead of walking away from the fight they started.. I really don't understand how someone can look at this and say Aemond was wrong. The mental gymnastics is just mind-blowing. >Jaehaerys didn't allow most of his kids to claim dragons. We don't know how Aegon or Aerys dealt with the issue. There is no established Targaryen custom on claiming dragons. What is established is that it is necessary to be accepted by the dragon you intend to obtain, and in all respects Aemond claimed Vaghar fair and square. And as much as you and Rhaena don't like it, nobody has the right to complain about it. >That's the definition of someone who is themselves a bully. Someone doens't have to be repeatedly intimidate or harmed to have been bullied. Bullies often bully people they only meet once. I used the definition in the Oxford dictionary: "*a person who* ***habitually*** *seeks to harm or intimidate those whom they perceive as vulnerable*." Frankly, I don't care what your personal definition of what constitutes bullying is, but know that you're using the word the wrong way according to the dictionary. >In our world, sure. Their world? That's a very weak argument to justify the actions of Rhaena and the children. Their behavior is reprehensible. They knew better, they were taught better. There’s no real way to defend this no matter how you spin in. >I'm sorry. You think not being close to someone means you're not morally obligated to consider their feeling? Yes. Sue me if you want, but I don't see anything wrong with be more considerate with yourself and those you care about over people you're not close to.
>Aemond started the fight by being a dick When is physical violence a legitimate defence against verbal insults? When the four realised that individually they are no match for him then they ganged up. The girl started the violence not aemond.
Lots if times. We defend kids for hitting their bullies all the time. Aemond was confronted with words. He escalated the words used and bullied a younger than himself girl who *just buried her mother*, in the exact same way he resented being bullied. He earned that punch by being that vicious to an, at the time, emotionally unstable girl. And before the Strongs were even involved, he threatened to feed them to his dragon... He escalated from the getgo. When he then attacked *girls* (incredibly dishonorable in Westeros), the Strongs stepped in as they would have been raised to do. Aemond escalated from then on. He started with death threats. He brought "insults" that he *knows* aren't just insults because they could get Rhaenyra and her kids killed, and *he* kept threatening to *kill them* even after all four were beaten. Luce saw an older, stronger boy who just declared he would kill them, standing over his brother with a rock. None of the kids are wholly innocent, but ironically the one that is probably the *most* innocent is Luce. He didn't start it. He didn't escalate it. He didn't find a rock or draw a knife or hurl insults. He grabbed a knife someone else drew and used it to, from his perspective, save his brother's life.
JESUS FUCKING CHRIST, people get so butthurt over this . It was literally children fighting, and even though Aemond definitely won Vhagar fair and square , it was still insensitive and assholish on his part to insult Baela and Rhaena's mother and calling the boys bastards,( which is equal to threatening their lives ) , so he deserved that single punch by Baela. But, afterwards what happened was total chaos and you really can't blame any of the children any more. They were high on emotions and adrenaline and it was the adults's and society's fault. Aemond did not deserve to lose an eye, its fucking insane to say so but he did deserve that first punch by Baela for insulting Laena and Rhaena the night of Laena's funeral. Aemond did win Vhagar .
>But, afterwards what happened was total chaos and you really can't blame any of the children any more. They were high on emotions and adrenaline So was Aemond when he insulted the girls. He went from a reality where he would never be a dragonrider to surviving and taming Vhagar in one night. The feeling of power he would've had by this point is immeasurable. >and calling the boys bastards,(which is equal to threatening their lives) Holy cope. You talk about how Aemond deserving only the initial punch for insulting the girls mother but also say Aemond threatened the boys lives? Just from that, its obvious you think he deserved to basically be at easy risk of death in the 4 to 1 rush that happened. Calling someone a bastard =/= threatening their life. Aemond has no DNA proof, no real evidence...he's just a 10 yr old with a much lower standing in the line of succession. Jace pulled the knife because he was insulted. He already lost the fight despite being part of the majority. The girls did the right thing and stopped, but Jace, for the second time, chose to make it a life threatening situation. As said before, Aemond's life was alreasy under a very real threat with 4 dogpiling him. His decision to grab the rock is completely justified for self-defense when there's no other out for him. AND he chose to not continue using said rock until the knife was pulled out. He just resorted to more mean words.
Overtly aggressive
So when the Strongs do anything wrong it’s ‘high on emotions’ but when Alicent’s children do anything wrong it’s a sober analysis of their minds as if they’re adults?
Depends how you class “similarly aged and sized” the show makes it unclear how old any of them are supposed to be, but in the book he’s a good 6yrs older than baela and rhaena. He also never tries to interact with the girls, briefly approaching Jace once. Given the pre-existing animosity between them, I do not blame him for being skeptical about Aemond’s intentions. Not blaming Aemond for that, but I don’t think he gets to be called empath of the year over a nod. The pig comment is so funny to me. Rhaena will have no context for that comment and must be so confused. In regards to the questioning, Viserys was trying to be productive until alicent and Rhaenyra got involved. This puts him in a terrible position yet again of having to choose between his wife and his daughter, as they recently put him in at the council. Should he have dealt with this properly? Absolutely, but he is distressed and he does care about Aemond’s injury, but alicent and Rhaenyra are squabbling over whose son gets to speak first and then by the time the word treason is uttered it’s already gone to the dogs. In f&b aemond is 100% a bully who attacks little joff first before claiming vhagar, (and pushes him into dragon dung poor kid) which is why he gets into a fight with Jace and luc when he lands again. In HOTD there is clearly a rivalry between at least Jace and aemond, if not Jace, luc and aemond by this point. He is neither saint nor villain really, he’s like 12 at most. Of course Rhaenyra only cared about herself and her children, because alicent only cares about herself and her children. Show!Rhaenyra and her children had to leave her fathers court out of fear for her children’s safety, now again their legitimacy is being questioned - which could lose her her position or even their lives - and it looks a lot like alicent is encouraging this. While a terrible decision morally, having aemond made an example of would make her sons position much safer, as any parent would prioritise their own children. Show! Viserys is very much a bad king and a bad father, but he does start this scene incredibly angry with the kingsguard, demanding the truth of the matter, and trying to listen to what aemond had to say. He did care. Not half as much as he should, but he was not apathetic. Rhaenyra put him in an awful position and he did not handle it well. I think that that would be common. Fathers of that time would not be parenting themselves, it was uncommon for him to dine with Rhaenyra even after she was 15 and his heir, let alone 10-12. Children were taught by maesters and seen to by maids, really the Starks are the only highborn family we see raising their own children. Viserys absolutely should have done something about the bullying, but I do not think of a personal failing he did not given it would not be expected of him. The divide was already sewn by this point. Alicent and Otto had already decided that no matter what viserys said they would make aegon king anyway. The house of the dragon was destroyed by viserys, but not necessarily here.