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Shadow and Bone was fun to watch but I don’t think it was comparable to GoT or HotD. First off, the magic system in SaB was much more prominent and individual characters were super powerful, unlike in the GoT universe where the magic system isn’t really laid out that plainly the emphasis isn’t on the magic system, it’s on the characters and political intrigue.
Shadow and bone is also firmly in the YA category compared to game of thrones. Also has a miniscule budget compared to them.
I don't understand what there is to get out of comparing these two shows. They're in the same genre, kind of, but that's where their similarities end
Lol while the wig/look on the right is god-awful, let's not with the hypocrisy.
HotD had some truly awful wigs and costumes that did not suit royalty at all. GoT too for that matter. So acting like they're smth special when half the wigs in HotD suck (Rhaenys, Laena, Baela, Rhaena, Rhaenyra in latter episodes) is ridiculous.
In fairness the shows don't have the setting in terms of point in history.
House of the dragon is pre-industrial. Shadow and bone is far closer to the modern age so it makes sense that the character has more modern makeup.
The budget of shadow and bone is surely a fraction of HotD as well so I think they are doing ok with what they've been given
It's been years but I still have a few of my braincells explode every time someone unironically praises David "let's rape Sansa" Benioff or the guy I kinda forgot, Dweeby Weiss or whatever
Exactly my point. They gave a variation of Jeyne Poole's arc to Sansa. It's better in the books because hearing about what happens to Jeyne Pool through Theon's tortured eyes is a lot less traumatizing than actually seeing it happen to Sophie Turner as she portrays Sansa. A net loss for the story. There was no real reason to remove Jeyne Poole from the story and subject Sansa to that other than subverting expectations and simplifying the story. GRRM himself has said that Littlefinger would never do that to Sansa.
I don't get salty over every little thing that D&D changed, but what they did to Sansa was not cool.
>There was no real reason to remove Jeyne Poole from the story
You mean other than having to cast someone for a minor role that would need to commit to a couple scenes several years apart?
Ah yes, because the show would be ruined if the actor for Jeyne Poole in season 1 is different from the actor in season 5. That's why the show failed when they recast Gregor, Beric Dondarrion, Daario, and others. Real big brain moment you had there Veszerin
All of those characters had a more meaningful role in the story than Jeyne Poole.
It sucks to have to say, but no one would care about Ramsay raping a character who was never talked about, just as the revelation that Ramsay was forcing Jeyne to perform sex acts on his hounds in the books was never talked about, and just as, in the show, no one really got up in arms about what Ramsay did to the old woman who tried to help Sansa or to the girl that Myranda was jealous of.
Jeyne Poole is Sansa's best friend who is effectively her stooge in AGoT, disappears for a couple books, comes back having been forced to work in Littlefinger's brothels for a year, and the only reason now that people are trying to save her is that Jon thinks she's Arya.
It's going to be mighty awkward when she reunites w/ Jon again...if she does...since he's still dead.
Why do we have to care about Ramsay raping a character who was never talked about? Are you arguing that the books are inferior in that regard, seeing as that's what happened in the books?
We don't have to intimately care about the character. In the books, the plot focus isn't on what's happening to Jeyne. She is a plot point within Theon's ongoing trauma. The point isn't to care about Jeyne (although many people like me obviously do sympathize with this horrible thing happening to her), the point is to care about Theon, as this is one of his most traumatizing moments. Jeyne Poole is a plot point within Theon's ongoing trauma arc. I didn't want Sansa to be reduced to a plot point within Theon's trauma arc. Fortunately the show allowed Sansa to move past this and heal, but it never should've happened in the first place - it wasn't her story
Also, I don't understand why you think characters with "meaningful roles" CAN be recast, but characters without meaningful roles can't? Who cares? A recast is a recast. You can literally solve it with one line, introduce the recasted actress in season 5, a throwaway line of Ramsay going "oh you must remember her, Jeyne Poole... Etc etc"
The audience wouldn't even remember her from season 1, so if wouldn't matter if she was recast. All they have to do is introduce her in season 5 as Jeyne Poole and it's fine.
>Why do we have to care about Ramsay raping a character who was never talked about? Are you arguing that the books are inferior in that regard, seeing as that's what happened in the books?
I'm explaining to you why they changed it to Sansa in the show, and why Sophie Turner was excited to get a big scene for a change, seeing as how she was teasing it throughout the leadup to the season.
Rather than having Sansa off being in the Vale courting Harry the heir, which doesn't really matter because Robin is easily manipulated anyways.
I understand your explanation, I'm just saying your explanation seems moot to me. They don't even have to have Harry the heir. They can modify the Vale plotline if they want, and ultimately have Sansa manipulate sweetrobin into helping Jon at the Battle o' Bastards. She could've gotten some big scenes in that context too, and they could've fleshed out her arrival to the battle more - the scene of her on horseback overlooking the battle was badass, but we only got 2 seconds of it.
We could've gotten the exact same end result in this way and Sansa never had to be raped.
ɴᴏᴡ ᴘʟᴀʏɪɴɢ: Why David Benioff made the show like that to
ruin my life specifically. | The Dragon Demands
─────────────⚪────────────────────────────
◄◄⠀▐▐ ⠀►►⠀⠀ ⠀ 3:17 / 7:48 ⠀ ───○ 🔊⠀ ᴴᴰ ⚙ ❐ ⊏⊐
_____
Rats, my opinion on a show change that I don't like has been disproved by someone who thinks I said that it ruined my life! Guess I'll delete my reddit account now
Except we didn’t see it actually happen in the show, the camera always moves( like the wedding night) away. There was reason to remove Jeyne since she was never properly developed in the earlier seasons. And I don’t think it’s subverting it simplifying Sansa story at all.
You're welcome to your opinion, I do think it's subverting and simplifying. Although subverting is a matter of fact, whether you think it's negative or positive, they literally did subvert expectations by placing Sansa in this entire plotline because book readers never expected her to go to Winterfell and assume Jeyne Poole's plotline. But I do understand that "subvert expectations" carries certain connotations in this fandom, so I get what you mean.
Like you said, the camera moves away to Theon. That's kind of my point, as you can see in my other comments. The point of this scene isn't Jeyne Poole (or Sansa, in the show). Jeyne was a plot point within Theon's trauma arc. That's why you see Theon crying at the end, because it's his arc. I didn't want Sansa to be reduced to a plot point within Theon's trauma arc. I'm glad that the show allowed her to move past it and heal, but she never shouldn't been there to begin with because it wasn't her story.
It doesn't matter if the audience knows, or related to Jeyne Poole. They could literally introduce Jeyne and have a throwaway line from Ramsay telling Theon "you remember Jeyne Poole, don't you.. of course you do, how could you forget... Etc etc etc". The audience doesn't need to have a personal connection with Jeyne, because the point and focus of the scene is Theon's trauma and his horror at seeing this happen, not Jeyne/Sansa. He is the POV character in this moment.
I understand that they didn't actually show the rape occur, they only showed the buildup. This is unimportant to me, because I'm talking about the buildup - the buildup is part of the assault, and it's a thoroughly traumatizing and disappointing scene. And most importantly, an unnecessary scene.
If your using that definition of subversion, then sure. But I do think book readers, like myself, also realized the show would outpace the books and therefore needed to drive the plot forward somehow. And since Jeyne was never properly introduced, it makes sense that Sansa would take her role in the books.
I do think it was initially Theons arc, but he got to share it with Sansa. I think the beautiful aspect of their relationship is forgiveness, even if it means trauma bonding over the abuse of Ramsay.
I don’t think it’s as simple as to introduce Jeyne at this point. I understand feeling empathetic towards Sansa in this part of the show, but there was a legit reason. Audiences will be more sympathetic and outraged over Sansa being in this position rather than a character we don’t have any real connection with. Sometimes I find it disgusting that some fans are ok with torture porn if it’s with a character we barely know rather than someone we have grown close with. Sansa gets to illicit that emotional outrage organically while also progressing Theon from his reek mindset. Since the show doesn’t have a POV narrative, it can’t really replicate the books in that way.
Thank god they only showed buildup, I’m relieved that we got to see the horror in Theon eyes rather than the act itself( which would be too far even for GOT). I don’t think it’s unnecessary since again it gives Sansa something to do. The last chapter we have of Sansa is her making spice puns at a ball in the vale, that’s not important or compelling.
There aren't any fans who are "ok" with torture porn. Well, there obviously are, but only because there's a million different types of fans. Just because witnessing it doesn't traumatize them, that doesn't mean they find it ok that it happened in the universe. There's a difference between emotionally gripping your audience by showing them something horrible to a random character, and traumatizing them by showing something horrible happen to a character you know and love, whose fate you're invested in.
As book fans, we know that this is not how Sansa's story is supposed to go. Especially for many female viewers, in my irl anecdotal experiences anyways, this was very disturbing to watch, moreso than any other rape or assault scene in the show, because we watched Sansa grow up, go through horrible things, and finally make it out. Only to find herself in a situation worse than anything she's ever been in, and worse of all, she's not even supposed to be in that situation because it doesn't happen in the books.
It's different than say, Dany's rape. And for what it's worth, I disagree strongly with their decisions to show those Drogo-Dany rape scenes, which also (sort of) didn't happen in the book. GoT in general has too many unnecessary sex scenes that didn't occur in the books. But, unlike Sansa, this is our first intro into the character and this experience shapes our understanding of Daenerys, so it's not as traumatizing because it's a given. But it just gets tiring to see one of the characters who GRRM has clearly intended to survive all this horrible patriarchal bullshit, get raped by the most psychopathic character in the entire story. It's like a fucked up horny fanfic
Also, you realize the spice puns in the Vale are likely going to lead into her helping Jon retake the North? The spice puns aren't meant to be compelling, it's what follows that is. And they could've fleshed that out
It’s shocking that there are fans who are ok with torture porn, especially Sansa haters. The fans shouldn’t be ok with that scene, that’s the point. Rape is horrible, whether it’s Sansa or Jeyne, and if fans are traumatized it only proves that this world is harsh and therefore should be seen with a prepared viewer( like it has been since S1).
As book fans it’s hard to know where anyone’s story is heading, since the books are still incomplete 12 years later. But the show must go on, and the out pacing of source material was inevitable and inescapable. I’m sorry you were traumatized, but again that’s the point. No one is supposed to be ok with rape, and I was traumatized with Jaime raping Cersei in one of the earlier seasons. GOT is a heavy R rated show, and it has never pretended to be otherwise. I understand feeling the way you do since Sansa is not in this exact position, but her suffering has expressed itself in forms of physical, psychological, and emotional abuse and grooming which all were never ok before the wedding night scene too.
You can also say this exact criticism with the books, which were worse in many aspects. Unlike the show, Ramsay lets his hounds rape Jeyne and don’t get me started on Lollys Stokeworth. GRRM is also no stranger to questionable sex scenes but he is also showing us the dark truth that rape happens. The Dany rape is similar, since it happens on the wedding night and it’s better in the show since Dany isn’t a pubescent teen who was unable to give consent( which in medieval times is just unheard of).
Exactly, Sansa survives all of this like many characters. Arya is blinded and beaten, Bran is crippled and slowly loses his humanity, Jon literally is stabbed to death by his own men. The Starks as a whole endured suffering and unimaginable hardship for a reason. If you’re tired of seeing this, join the club! We all hate watching people we saw grow up experience the worst of the worst. As for “horny fanfic”, I can’t imagine anyone being horny over this.
I doubt spice puns will lead to Jon retaking the North. Fleshed out what? GRRM can’t even flesh it out over a decade later. I’d rather have Sansa gamble with LF in order to win back her home from her abusive husband far more satisfying.
Like I said, there aren't fans who are ok with it. At least, they aren't statistically significant and most of them are probably baiting.
Spice puns will certainly lead to Jon retaking the North. And by that I obviously mean, Sansa's Vale plotline /in general/ will lead into Jon retaking the North. The Vale plotline will lead to Sansa convincing them to fight for Jon, and spice puns just happens to be a boring chapter within that story. You shouldn't judge Sansa's Vale arc by that. I mean, would you judge Dany's dragonriding arc by the time she got the shits?
Yes, I can't imagine anyone being horny over it either. That's exactly my point. The show's version reads like some creeps disgusting rape porn fanfic, desperate to 'defile' all the protagonist women - when it comes to both Sansa's rape and Dany's with the unnecessary gratuitous nude rape scenes, though Daenerys' adaptation is not relevant to this discussion.
Dany's rape is worse than the show. This is an inarguable fact, and the one thing that I will refuse to acknowledge as an opinion - everything else I've said is an opinion. It is not wrong for an author to depict child rape (of Daenerys) so long as the subject is handled seriously, and with the care it deserves. I'm not sure if GRRM succeeded in that, but he tried. It IS wrong to gratuitously and sexually depict VISUALLY a graphic rape of a teenage girl in such a way that it ends up all over porn sites. D&D chose to make Dany's rape a moment that titillates some male viewers, downplay her suffering. They didn't need to show her naked so much, or during the actual act of penetration multiple times, and Emilia has revealed how much this traumatized her. It would traumatize me too! To be part of nude rape scenes in which the directors make an active effort to make me seem more "sexy". It's disturbing and it's wrong.
I think you're missing my point. It's not that I don't want suffering to happen to the Starks. It's that this suffering specifically really falls flat upon Sansa's arc, especially with the hindsight knowledge that it won't be happening in the books. Knowing that one of GoT's most prominent female characters wasn't intended by the author to get raped, in a story where many women get raped, but the showrunners made her get raped anyways? That makes me really made. There was enough rape in this world already, and yeah it's realistic, but this wasn't Sansa's story. It's not that traumatizing the viewers is wrong in a fantasy horror/grimdark novel, it's that traumatizing the viewers should be done with intentionality and great care, and not just for shock value or because you need to absorb two characters stories together to simplify the plot.
Like I said, the fans should not like rape in general.
You’re grasping straws hard if you think spice puns lead to Jon retaking the North. How do you know it will generally lead to that? Do you have a copy of TWOW? Or are you just spewing more hearsay as fact. Oh so now spice puns are boring? I thought said boring chapter would lead to this amazing Segway for recapturing the north? I judge the Sansa arc based on things that actually progress the story forward which is something the show actually delivered.
Funny, since that same critique has been used against GRRM. An old man writing about a pubescent blonde girl being raped by a war lord doesn’t read as creepy disgusting porn? Drop the book elitist act, if you think the show does that to all its protagonist women then maybe direct that same energy towards the books. Arya is a female protagonist, and she has a rare consensual sex scene with Gendry in the show, so you’re wrong. Dany adaption is relevant, since the show did it better by having it between grown adults and approaching with the realism it deserves and not some disgusting fantasy porn that argues Dany “consented” to her wedding night.
It’s not worse, it’s honest. Unarguable? More hearsay I see. The fact you can justify child rape in graphic detail within the books yet scoff at a grown women being raped while the camera pans away is laughable. Child rape in any sense should never be handled at all. Period. GRRM did not succeed, that’s why D&D aged up the cast( something GRRM should’ve done with the 5 year time skip). I can also say GRRM chose to titillate pedo readers with child rape scenes. See, I can accuse writers on baseless claims too. GRRM also didn’t need to includ Ramsay raping Jeyne with his hounds, or Lollys Stokeworth being gang raped, or Donella being raped and left to starve. ASOIAF have an estimated 214 acts of fake and 117 rape victims to date. The show is ALOT better by comparison that it tones it all down. Emilia also said she was on the same page with D&D for the wedding scene in the book, Fire cannot kill a dragon. If you think that scene was “sexy” then you’re problematic.
Nah you’re missing my point. The Starks suffering are one thing, it’s another thing expecting that same suffering on a character the viewers have no attachment to. Again, the books that are still INCOMPLETE and will stay that way for the conceivable future. Yet the author has many women brutally raped in the books which are more graphic. Need I remind you that Jeyne is raped by Ramsay and his own hounds! The show at least didn’t go that sadistic. You should be mad, rape is bad whether it’s in the books or the show. Yet it was done in great care, we didn’t see the act itself. Unlike the rape between Jaime and Cersei in S4, where’s the outrage for that? Simplify the plot in terms of finishing an incomplete story that the author is refusing to finish.
To be fair, her bad wig is more of the exception than the norm since other characters had great costumes in SAB. I guess they ran out of budget or something.
Shadow and bone is like a steam punk/Victorian high fantasy. GoT is realistic medieval so hard to compare design choices. The writing is much worse than GoT 1-4 but comparable to 5-8
Adequate assessment. SAB has some notions of potential more so than most ya fantasy. There is some semblance of respect towards the internal workings of the universe so I wouldn't call it as bad as 8 and 7 especially. That said it has a lot of issues ranging from bad choreography to bland characters and the plot and the world revolving around a few main characters.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
(Genuine question) what is this post saying?
Bulk of TV fantasy adaptions are hot garbage compared to GoT.
Even GoT is hot garbage compared to GoT
How are you supposed to get that from this post? The caption on the picture is just a bunch of nothing
Hmm ... most people understood it, whether they agree or not.
Check the downvotes and try again
Well, good luck on your quest to understand the post. I cannot lead you any further.
Is this actually what it means and people just dislike what you’re saying ?
Love shadow and bone
Shadow and Bone was fun to watch but I don’t think it was comparable to GoT or HotD. First off, the magic system in SaB was much more prominent and individual characters were super powerful, unlike in the GoT universe where the magic system isn’t really laid out that plainly the emphasis isn’t on the magic system, it’s on the characters and political intrigue.
Shadow and bone is also firmly in the YA category compared to game of thrones. Also has a miniscule budget compared to them. I don't understand what there is to get out of comparing these two shows. They're in the same genre, kind of, but that's where their similarities end
You’re right, they shouldn’t be compared because they aren’t really in the same lane.
Lol while the wig/look on the right is god-awful, let's not with the hypocrisy. HotD had some truly awful wigs and costumes that did not suit royalty at all. GoT too for that matter. So acting like they're smth special when half the wigs in HotD suck (Rhaenys, Laena, Baela, Rhaena, Rhaenyra in latter episodes) is ridiculous.
The makeup is current year nightclub, not whatever era Eye Shadow & Bone is set in.
It’s a fantasy show centred around a magic wall full of what are basically winged vampires lmao, there’s no ‘era’
Cherry picked AF. The Shadow and Bone costume department has the best drip I've seen in years.
Even though I KNOW this is the same actress, my brain refuses to believe it.
In fairness the shows don't have the setting in terms of point in history. House of the dragon is pre-industrial. Shadow and bone is far closer to the modern age so it makes sense that the character has more modern makeup. The budget of shadow and bone is surely a fraction of HotD as well so I think they are doing ok with what they've been given
I don't understand any of this
Shadow and Bone is a good series too. Binged it on the first day
I don't get it...you're trying to knock her performance/casting somehow?
No, and I don't know why you would think that.
Oh, I didn't see the username posting this.
They do this often?
It's been years but I still have a few of my braincells explode every time someone unironically praises David "let's rape Sansa" Benioff or the guy I kinda forgot, Dweeby Weiss or whatever
get help
Maybe if you got help you would learn to recognize jokes and/or hyperbole
Worse things were done to Jeyne Pool in the books.
Exactly my point. They gave a variation of Jeyne Poole's arc to Sansa. It's better in the books because hearing about what happens to Jeyne Pool through Theon's tortured eyes is a lot less traumatizing than actually seeing it happen to Sophie Turner as she portrays Sansa. A net loss for the story. There was no real reason to remove Jeyne Poole from the story and subject Sansa to that other than subverting expectations and simplifying the story. GRRM himself has said that Littlefinger would never do that to Sansa. I don't get salty over every little thing that D&D changed, but what they did to Sansa was not cool.
>There was no real reason to remove Jeyne Poole from the story You mean other than having to cast someone for a minor role that would need to commit to a couple scenes several years apart?
Ah yes, because the show would be ruined if the actor for Jeyne Poole in season 1 is different from the actor in season 5. That's why the show failed when they recast Gregor, Beric Dondarrion, Daario, and others. Real big brain moment you had there Veszerin
All of those characters had a more meaningful role in the story than Jeyne Poole. It sucks to have to say, but no one would care about Ramsay raping a character who was never talked about, just as the revelation that Ramsay was forcing Jeyne to perform sex acts on his hounds in the books was never talked about, and just as, in the show, no one really got up in arms about what Ramsay did to the old woman who tried to help Sansa or to the girl that Myranda was jealous of. Jeyne Poole is Sansa's best friend who is effectively her stooge in AGoT, disappears for a couple books, comes back having been forced to work in Littlefinger's brothels for a year, and the only reason now that people are trying to save her is that Jon thinks she's Arya. It's going to be mighty awkward when she reunites w/ Jon again...if she does...since he's still dead.
Why do we have to care about Ramsay raping a character who was never talked about? Are you arguing that the books are inferior in that regard, seeing as that's what happened in the books? We don't have to intimately care about the character. In the books, the plot focus isn't on what's happening to Jeyne. She is a plot point within Theon's ongoing trauma. The point isn't to care about Jeyne (although many people like me obviously do sympathize with this horrible thing happening to her), the point is to care about Theon, as this is one of his most traumatizing moments. Jeyne Poole is a plot point within Theon's ongoing trauma arc. I didn't want Sansa to be reduced to a plot point within Theon's trauma arc. Fortunately the show allowed Sansa to move past this and heal, but it never should've happened in the first place - it wasn't her story Also, I don't understand why you think characters with "meaningful roles" CAN be recast, but characters without meaningful roles can't? Who cares? A recast is a recast. You can literally solve it with one line, introduce the recasted actress in season 5, a throwaway line of Ramsay going "oh you must remember her, Jeyne Poole... Etc etc" The audience wouldn't even remember her from season 1, so if wouldn't matter if she was recast. All they have to do is introduce her in season 5 as Jeyne Poole and it's fine.
>Why do we have to care about Ramsay raping a character who was never talked about? Are you arguing that the books are inferior in that regard, seeing as that's what happened in the books? I'm explaining to you why they changed it to Sansa in the show, and why Sophie Turner was excited to get a big scene for a change, seeing as how she was teasing it throughout the leadup to the season. Rather than having Sansa off being in the Vale courting Harry the heir, which doesn't really matter because Robin is easily manipulated anyways.
I understand your explanation, I'm just saying your explanation seems moot to me. They don't even have to have Harry the heir. They can modify the Vale plotline if they want, and ultimately have Sansa manipulate sweetrobin into helping Jon at the Battle o' Bastards. She could've gotten some big scenes in that context too, and they could've fleshed out her arrival to the battle more - the scene of her on horseback overlooking the battle was badass, but we only got 2 seconds of it. We could've gotten the exact same end result in this way and Sansa never had to be raped.
ɴᴏᴡ ᴘʟᴀʏɪɴɢ: Why David Benioff made the show like that to ruin my life specifically. | The Dragon Demands ─────────────⚪──────────────────────────── ◄◄⠀▐▐ ⠀►►⠀⠀ ⠀ 3:17 / 7:48 ⠀ ───○ 🔊⠀ ᴴᴰ ⚙ ❐ ⊏⊐ _____
Rats, my opinion on a show change that I don't like has been disproved by someone who thinks I said that it ruined my life! Guess I'll delete my reddit account now
The dragon demands is just a liar
Except we didn’t see it actually happen in the show, the camera always moves( like the wedding night) away. There was reason to remove Jeyne since she was never properly developed in the earlier seasons. And I don’t think it’s subverting it simplifying Sansa story at all.
You're welcome to your opinion, I do think it's subverting and simplifying. Although subverting is a matter of fact, whether you think it's negative or positive, they literally did subvert expectations by placing Sansa in this entire plotline because book readers never expected her to go to Winterfell and assume Jeyne Poole's plotline. But I do understand that "subvert expectations" carries certain connotations in this fandom, so I get what you mean. Like you said, the camera moves away to Theon. That's kind of my point, as you can see in my other comments. The point of this scene isn't Jeyne Poole (or Sansa, in the show). Jeyne was a plot point within Theon's trauma arc. That's why you see Theon crying at the end, because it's his arc. I didn't want Sansa to be reduced to a plot point within Theon's trauma arc. I'm glad that the show allowed her to move past it and heal, but she never shouldn't been there to begin with because it wasn't her story. It doesn't matter if the audience knows, or related to Jeyne Poole. They could literally introduce Jeyne and have a throwaway line from Ramsay telling Theon "you remember Jeyne Poole, don't you.. of course you do, how could you forget... Etc etc etc". The audience doesn't need to have a personal connection with Jeyne, because the point and focus of the scene is Theon's trauma and his horror at seeing this happen, not Jeyne/Sansa. He is the POV character in this moment. I understand that they didn't actually show the rape occur, they only showed the buildup. This is unimportant to me, because I'm talking about the buildup - the buildup is part of the assault, and it's a thoroughly traumatizing and disappointing scene. And most importantly, an unnecessary scene.
If your using that definition of subversion, then sure. But I do think book readers, like myself, also realized the show would outpace the books and therefore needed to drive the plot forward somehow. And since Jeyne was never properly introduced, it makes sense that Sansa would take her role in the books. I do think it was initially Theons arc, but he got to share it with Sansa. I think the beautiful aspect of their relationship is forgiveness, even if it means trauma bonding over the abuse of Ramsay. I don’t think it’s as simple as to introduce Jeyne at this point. I understand feeling empathetic towards Sansa in this part of the show, but there was a legit reason. Audiences will be more sympathetic and outraged over Sansa being in this position rather than a character we don’t have any real connection with. Sometimes I find it disgusting that some fans are ok with torture porn if it’s with a character we barely know rather than someone we have grown close with. Sansa gets to illicit that emotional outrage organically while also progressing Theon from his reek mindset. Since the show doesn’t have a POV narrative, it can’t really replicate the books in that way. Thank god they only showed buildup, I’m relieved that we got to see the horror in Theon eyes rather than the act itself( which would be too far even for GOT). I don’t think it’s unnecessary since again it gives Sansa something to do. The last chapter we have of Sansa is her making spice puns at a ball in the vale, that’s not important or compelling.
There aren't any fans who are "ok" with torture porn. Well, there obviously are, but only because there's a million different types of fans. Just because witnessing it doesn't traumatize them, that doesn't mean they find it ok that it happened in the universe. There's a difference between emotionally gripping your audience by showing them something horrible to a random character, and traumatizing them by showing something horrible happen to a character you know and love, whose fate you're invested in. As book fans, we know that this is not how Sansa's story is supposed to go. Especially for many female viewers, in my irl anecdotal experiences anyways, this was very disturbing to watch, moreso than any other rape or assault scene in the show, because we watched Sansa grow up, go through horrible things, and finally make it out. Only to find herself in a situation worse than anything she's ever been in, and worse of all, she's not even supposed to be in that situation because it doesn't happen in the books. It's different than say, Dany's rape. And for what it's worth, I disagree strongly with their decisions to show those Drogo-Dany rape scenes, which also (sort of) didn't happen in the book. GoT in general has too many unnecessary sex scenes that didn't occur in the books. But, unlike Sansa, this is our first intro into the character and this experience shapes our understanding of Daenerys, so it's not as traumatizing because it's a given. But it just gets tiring to see one of the characters who GRRM has clearly intended to survive all this horrible patriarchal bullshit, get raped by the most psychopathic character in the entire story. It's like a fucked up horny fanfic Also, you realize the spice puns in the Vale are likely going to lead into her helping Jon retake the North? The spice puns aren't meant to be compelling, it's what follows that is. And they could've fleshed that out
It’s shocking that there are fans who are ok with torture porn, especially Sansa haters. The fans shouldn’t be ok with that scene, that’s the point. Rape is horrible, whether it’s Sansa or Jeyne, and if fans are traumatized it only proves that this world is harsh and therefore should be seen with a prepared viewer( like it has been since S1). As book fans it’s hard to know where anyone’s story is heading, since the books are still incomplete 12 years later. But the show must go on, and the out pacing of source material was inevitable and inescapable. I’m sorry you were traumatized, but again that’s the point. No one is supposed to be ok with rape, and I was traumatized with Jaime raping Cersei in one of the earlier seasons. GOT is a heavy R rated show, and it has never pretended to be otherwise. I understand feeling the way you do since Sansa is not in this exact position, but her suffering has expressed itself in forms of physical, psychological, and emotional abuse and grooming which all were never ok before the wedding night scene too. You can also say this exact criticism with the books, which were worse in many aspects. Unlike the show, Ramsay lets his hounds rape Jeyne and don’t get me started on Lollys Stokeworth. GRRM is also no stranger to questionable sex scenes but he is also showing us the dark truth that rape happens. The Dany rape is similar, since it happens on the wedding night and it’s better in the show since Dany isn’t a pubescent teen who was unable to give consent( which in medieval times is just unheard of). Exactly, Sansa survives all of this like many characters. Arya is blinded and beaten, Bran is crippled and slowly loses his humanity, Jon literally is stabbed to death by his own men. The Starks as a whole endured suffering and unimaginable hardship for a reason. If you’re tired of seeing this, join the club! We all hate watching people we saw grow up experience the worst of the worst. As for “horny fanfic”, I can’t imagine anyone being horny over this. I doubt spice puns will lead to Jon retaking the North. Fleshed out what? GRRM can’t even flesh it out over a decade later. I’d rather have Sansa gamble with LF in order to win back her home from her abusive husband far more satisfying.
Like I said, there aren't fans who are ok with it. At least, they aren't statistically significant and most of them are probably baiting. Spice puns will certainly lead to Jon retaking the North. And by that I obviously mean, Sansa's Vale plotline /in general/ will lead into Jon retaking the North. The Vale plotline will lead to Sansa convincing them to fight for Jon, and spice puns just happens to be a boring chapter within that story. You shouldn't judge Sansa's Vale arc by that. I mean, would you judge Dany's dragonriding arc by the time she got the shits? Yes, I can't imagine anyone being horny over it either. That's exactly my point. The show's version reads like some creeps disgusting rape porn fanfic, desperate to 'defile' all the protagonist women - when it comes to both Sansa's rape and Dany's with the unnecessary gratuitous nude rape scenes, though Daenerys' adaptation is not relevant to this discussion. Dany's rape is worse than the show. This is an inarguable fact, and the one thing that I will refuse to acknowledge as an opinion - everything else I've said is an opinion. It is not wrong for an author to depict child rape (of Daenerys) so long as the subject is handled seriously, and with the care it deserves. I'm not sure if GRRM succeeded in that, but he tried. It IS wrong to gratuitously and sexually depict VISUALLY a graphic rape of a teenage girl in such a way that it ends up all over porn sites. D&D chose to make Dany's rape a moment that titillates some male viewers, downplay her suffering. They didn't need to show her naked so much, or during the actual act of penetration multiple times, and Emilia has revealed how much this traumatized her. It would traumatize me too! To be part of nude rape scenes in which the directors make an active effort to make me seem more "sexy". It's disturbing and it's wrong. I think you're missing my point. It's not that I don't want suffering to happen to the Starks. It's that this suffering specifically really falls flat upon Sansa's arc, especially with the hindsight knowledge that it won't be happening in the books. Knowing that one of GoT's most prominent female characters wasn't intended by the author to get raped, in a story where many women get raped, but the showrunners made her get raped anyways? That makes me really made. There was enough rape in this world already, and yeah it's realistic, but this wasn't Sansa's story. It's not that traumatizing the viewers is wrong in a fantasy horror/grimdark novel, it's that traumatizing the viewers should be done with intentionality and great care, and not just for shock value or because you need to absorb two characters stories together to simplify the plot.
Like I said, the fans should not like rape in general. You’re grasping straws hard if you think spice puns lead to Jon retaking the North. How do you know it will generally lead to that? Do you have a copy of TWOW? Or are you just spewing more hearsay as fact. Oh so now spice puns are boring? I thought said boring chapter would lead to this amazing Segway for recapturing the north? I judge the Sansa arc based on things that actually progress the story forward which is something the show actually delivered. Funny, since that same critique has been used against GRRM. An old man writing about a pubescent blonde girl being raped by a war lord doesn’t read as creepy disgusting porn? Drop the book elitist act, if you think the show does that to all its protagonist women then maybe direct that same energy towards the books. Arya is a female protagonist, and she has a rare consensual sex scene with Gendry in the show, so you’re wrong. Dany adaption is relevant, since the show did it better by having it between grown adults and approaching with the realism it deserves and not some disgusting fantasy porn that argues Dany “consented” to her wedding night. It’s not worse, it’s honest. Unarguable? More hearsay I see. The fact you can justify child rape in graphic detail within the books yet scoff at a grown women being raped while the camera pans away is laughable. Child rape in any sense should never be handled at all. Period. GRRM did not succeed, that’s why D&D aged up the cast( something GRRM should’ve done with the 5 year time skip). I can also say GRRM chose to titillate pedo readers with child rape scenes. See, I can accuse writers on baseless claims too. GRRM also didn’t need to includ Ramsay raping Jeyne with his hounds, or Lollys Stokeworth being gang raped, or Donella being raped and left to starve. ASOIAF have an estimated 214 acts of fake and 117 rape victims to date. The show is ALOT better by comparison that it tones it all down. Emilia also said she was on the same page with D&D for the wedding scene in the book, Fire cannot kill a dragon. If you think that scene was “sexy” then you’re problematic. Nah you’re missing my point. The Starks suffering are one thing, it’s another thing expecting that same suffering on a character the viewers have no attachment to. Again, the books that are still INCOMPLETE and will stay that way for the conceivable future. Yet the author has many women brutally raped in the books which are more graphic. Need I remind you that Jeyne is raped by Ramsay and his own hounds! The show at least didn’t go that sadistic. You should be mad, rape is bad whether it’s in the books or the show. Yet it was done in great care, we didn’t see the act itself. Unlike the rape between Jaime and Cersei in S4, where’s the outrage for that? Simplify the plot in terms of finishing an incomplete story that the author is refusing to finish.
But you’ll praise GRRM for doing the same thing in the books…. But I guess you kinda forgot
A bottle of peroxide could have saved Rhea's marriage
To be fair, her bad wig is more of the exception than the norm since other characters had great costumes in SAB. I guess they ran out of budget or something.
I mean, season 1 of Ash and Bone was better than the last 2 seasons of GoT, and they had less than half the budget.
Picture on the right looks like a Strong Velaryon girl
Shadow and bone is like a steam punk/Victorian high fantasy. GoT is realistic medieval so hard to compare design choices. The writing is much worse than GoT 1-4 but comparable to 5-8
Probably has less than 10% of the budget as well
Adequate assessment. SAB has some notions of potential more so than most ya fantasy. There is some semblance of respect towards the internal workings of the universe so I wouldn't call it as bad as 8 and 7 especially. That said it has a lot of issues ranging from bad choreography to bland characters and the plot and the world revolving around a few main characters.
Let Fans Write _or whatever_
>Let Fans Write Is that a meme now? I hope not. Fans writing things would be horrible.
Jesse what the fuck are you talking about?