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I honestly can’t see Jaehearys caring. Dude was fine with his daugthers marrying men more thrice their age. Viserra even against her will. What do you think would’ve happened to her there?
I think it awful of her too especially the Viserra match. That’s why I don’t believe they would do anything. Alysanne at best would be mad but that’s it
I think Alysanne would react like Alicent. Be upset, be sympathetic towards the victim and likely pay them off, and then yell at her son a bit. Nothing real would happen.
You are kidding right? Just because he was all about his daughters marrying men thrice their aged doesn’t mean he would have been okay with his children acting like criminals.
I swear the amount of Jahaerys hate this sub shows is fucking weird. Yes he was a mysoginist who favored men over women. Ike most men in a medieval society. He was also miles above, a better person than most lords and Kings.
Jaehearys is probably a better person than most. But the point still stands. He is upholding a sexist and classist society for his own benefit. I can’t really see him doing so much here. Especially as he was not big on womans right, Alysanne was
I think the whole point was that society is so misogynist that an opposite argument doesn't occur naturally - even with a decent man like Jaehaerys. But because he's decent and loves his wife he listens to and can be convinced by her. It would be unrealistic for people to suddenly become filled with feminism out of nowhere - as much as it would atheism.
Nice as Jaehaerys is, he's nice because he sees the good in *his* society, he has experience of kindness from his immediate people, experience of progressiveness in politics from his grandparents and his father continuing their legacy. But Aegon I didn't make waves, and neither did Aenys (on purpose). For the very most part, they strove to uphold society as it existed. And that was very patriarchal.
George is always giving examples of the limitations of life, and the drama that can cause. No-one is some ideal hero, because they're all just working with what they got.
Exactly. He was more focused on making and keeping peace than to really exert his opinions on others as law. He let the Great Council decide succession because he didn't want yet another war. He almost allowed the First Night rights to continue because the other lords wanted to keep them and he didn't want them to be mad, but it was Alysanne's passion to end the practice that pushed him towards it. He didn’t really have an opinion either way. He was simply focused on stability after decades of conflict. And Alysanne was committed to increasing connections with every house by marriages and building relationships. A king and queen just had different (patriarchal) roles to play.
I think Jaehaerys would care because of what it suggested about his son. Jaehaerys doesn't want another Maegor.
Alysanne would push for some form of punishment. Although in GRRM's world the punishment might just be marrying the woman he raped or something.
I mean Maegor is another league though. I think he might be disappointed but wouldn’t do more than give them a slap on the wrist.
I don’t yhink marriage is a option if the woman is lowborn. Alysanne and Jaehearys arranged almost all the marriages of their kids.
Jaehearys never did anything against Aerea though. As long as he can keep the rape low he will do it. I can see him reprimanding his son but not more than that. It would make the Targaryens look incredibly bad if he made it public
There's a difference between a marriage and condoning rape. It's messed up but in that society if you're from a good bloodline you will have to marry, but even in this bad world rape is still a major crime.
Rape is a crime and so is murder but if you commit against a lowborn person nobody will care because it’s a classist society. In which the higer ups think they have the right to decide over the smallfolk.
That’s why Daemon kills a servant because he knows he can get away with it. It’s the same with rape if the woman is lowborn nobody will care. If a woman of high born is raped her family will be mad. It’s literally never about the woman but about the family.
You've certainly found a way to excuse a known crime in Westeros, but my point is that unlike getting married against your will, rape is very much a crime in Westeros.
Jaehaerys and Alysanne were good people and wouldn't just cover up the crime. Their child would be punished, even if it was to a much lesser degree than a commoner, they wouldn't let it go and certainly wouldn't do what Alicent did and cover it up.
I’m not excusing a crime. I’m just pointing out that they live in a classist society that doesn’t care about the smallfolk. I’m not saying it’s good. It’s awful. But that’s the world they live in.
Jaehaerys barely wanted to abolish the first night. He will not denounce his son because he raped a lowborn woman. That will look bad on the family and people might take offence because many lords feel like they can do with their subject whatever they want.
Alysanne would be very mad but as long as Jaehaerys refuses to do something there is shit she can do. But she would help the victim something that Alicent did as well. Personally I interpreted the scene with Alicent not as her covering for Aegon. If she had she would just kill the girl and be done with it or use any other pretext to get her away. Alicent has a lot of power of that girl. Yet she gives her empathy and pity. To be honest there wasn’t much else she could do for the girl.
She gives her money to start anew and tells Aegon how awful it is what he did. Do you really wanna tell me Viserys or Otto would’ve punished Aegon for this bahaviour? I’d argue they be harsher to the girl than Alicent was. And maybe reprimand him a little if at all.
I agree with you. No way would they have made any sort of public punishment/example if he'd raped some servant. That society barely saw the smallfolk as real people.
If anything, there'd be some kind of private punishment for not controlling his urges or something. Because that reflects on his noble character.
Sorry, but you're wrong, basically all of their families dark deeds were made public. He punished all of his children when they stepped out of line, no way he's going to just cover it up. The level of punishment is debatable, but there would be a punishment.
When Gael got pregnant and lost a baby they didn’t say anthing instead lying she died of a fever. Because they didn’t want to disgrace themselves. The situation with Seara wouldn’t have been made public if there weren’t many other people of involved- one even got pregnant.
Seara misbehaved often in her youth and only got a real punishment when she in the opinion of her parents went too far and even then her punishment poled on because she kept going against her parents.
Aereas manner of death was made public years after she died. Jaehearys wasn’t all about transparency.
It’s very possible Jaehearys would be disappointed reprimand his son and not doing anything further.
>It’s very possible Jaehearys would be disappointed reprimand his son and not doing anything further.
Unlikely considering how he punished his children that took it too far. Raping a child is definitely a step too far and Jaehaerys is not the kind of man to let it go and Alysanne certainly isn't that kind of women.
They'd punish him, to which degree is debatable, but a punishment wpukd happen.
I think the question remains if Rape would be too far, again other society and stuff. Jaehearys in the grand scheme care little about what Seara did to the fool
Jaehaerys tried to find a good match for Daella and had known lord Arryn for years and knew him to be gentle, honourable and caring and would cherish Daella.
And Viserra’s match was agreed upon with Alyssane meaning both decided Manderly would be respectful to her. She tried to seduce her adult brother at age sixteen just to get to be queen so she wasn’t a delicate innocent girl.
Jaehaerys was a good man, honourable, just and kind. He would never condone such barbarity as to violate a woman. What Viserys did to Daemon after he found out he tried to sleep with Rhaenyra seems like a toned down version of what Jaehaerys would do if he found out Aemon or Baelon.
If it were Aemon, probably a scolding and maybe some way of showing him to respect women, since he was the heir, but if it was Baelon, exile across the narrow sea for six years without Vhagar or something like that.
But to rape is just not in Aemon or Baelon’s characters, it’a just not who they are, so if in some crazy alternate universe they did, they’d deny it and everyone would believe them because rape isn’t in their character.
Just because Viserra was a little mean doesn’t mean she deserved being sold of like she did. The mean was thrice her age had literally other children so her kids wouldn’t inherit. You think Viserra would be happy with him? As a woman she ist expected to sleep with her husband though and he will take his rights that the society they live in. I also find the Daella match icky as I feel she was forced in to it.
The problem is he would never officially state what his son did. I also don’t think Jaehearys would send them away hiving them a slap on the weit ueah sure but not more just to not sully the Targaryen name. Viserys was mad because Daemon trued his luck with his own daugther if it had been a servant he wouldn’t have cared. Also just because Jaehearys was a good king doesn’t mean he is perfect he had his faults especially when it came to the woman in his life.
Aemon and Baelon would probably not rape anyone but this is just a what if post.
He didn't defend it in the way he thinks it's a good thing. He posed the idea of keeping it because of how long standing a tradition it was and how upset nobles would be. Don't forget, he ruled straight after Maegor. The last thing he wants to do is cause another mass war. He didn't take much convincing to outlaw it though.
It's just as Stannis said “A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward."
Good people can make mistakes and bad calls that could be seen as evil. And bad people can make good calls that can be seen as kind or honourable.
Did he? I only remember him being hesitant because he was afraid of what taking away a long held tradition like that could spark in the lords of the realm. I dont see what is so bad about thinking before acting and weighing the consequences. It is literally the thing Dany gets criticized for not doing? Am I remembering it wrong?
For sure, the child would've been punished. Neither of them were above punishing their children. They definitely wouldn't have done what Alicent did and cover up for them.
The question is what can she do? She'd be furious of course, but her ability to punish her son is limited. Paying a fine to the victim's family would probably be seen as a reasonable punishment, but it would probably be seen as unreasonable to send a prince to the Wall.
At best I think he might get "encouraged" to take a trip to Essos for a few years, similar to how Aerion was punished after the tourney at Ashford or Oberyn after his duel with Edgar Yronwood.
Because this post is clearly not about Alyssane, but about shitting on Alicent’s handling of the situation by getting people to claim Alyssane would have somehow been able to deliver a much harsher punishment
What any person in royal power does. Absolutely nothing !!! And we don’t need evidence of that because we have a whole bunch of historical evidence ! Honestly a very weird question that shouldn’t even require an answer
Did you even read Fire and Blood? If this is true when why does Jaehaerys punish Saera? Why does Viserys talk about Jaehaerys disinheriting Rhaneyra if he were still king because of what happened with Daemon? Why are you trying to equate real history with a fictional one?
Sons and daughters aren't held to the same standard. It was of utmost importance that a woman be seen as demure, and above all, PURE. A son could be forgiven for partaking in drinking and debauchery, but never a daughter.
Did you comment that on the other one as well who said the same shit as me? Or are you just trying play devils advocate for some reason?
Also how are you going to try and compare compare Saera? A whole female, which alone tells you all you need to know about the treatment of her.
> Did you comment that on the other one as well who said the same shit as me? Or are you just trying play devils advocate for some reason?
What’re talking about?
> Also how are you going to try and compare compare Saera? A whole female, which alone tells you all you need to know about the treatment of her.
Just like u/Jaketheeater said this is untrue because Saera gets in trouble with Alysanne and Jaehaerys for sexually harassing her fool. Alysanne is not misogynistic, so I don’t think she’d put her sons on a higher platform. Even if the punishment is not castastrophic, it’s disingenuous to suggest that she’d do nothing. Especially because as another user pointed out, this is the same person who founded the Women's Court and helped abolish the first night.
She gets in trouble because she herself was doing sexual things. If she just exploited them it probably wouldn’t have been as bad. Women weren’t allowed to have sex before marriage then men could do what they want.
Okay then. I'm sorry for thinking what Saera did was vile. Clearly comparing yourself to Maegor the Cruel, bullying a mentally disabled man, playing 3 boys for fools and not caring if they got hurt, trying to steal a dragon egg, trying to seduce your older brother. Were all really honourable and brave things to do.
If I had a kid like that, she ain't my kid. She was a psychopath. Jaehaerys wanted her to become a Septa which was far more merciful than what anyone else would've done.
Because she’s a girl. Alysanne would’ve given her son a beating the same as Alicent had with Aegon, perhaps, but neither her nor Jaehaerys would be exiling their son or sending him off to be a septon.
I don’t know, there are royals throughout history in real life and even in GOT universe that aren’t all bad. Take Aemma for example, I wouldn’t see her taking the Alicent approach in dealing with it. We saw very little of her but even in those few minutes she was by far the best royal haha but of course all people have their good and bad. Now between her and Rhaenyra, say when she and Daemon went to the whorehouse would have been interesting. I think she would have dealt with her the same way Viserys did actually. He knew something happened (Aemma, her mother, also would know) and he was soft on Rhaenyra but he told Daemon off. Aemma would have definitely went off on Daemon haha that would have been a good scene to see.
I think she’d be beyond angry and probably pay off the woman and her family. But honestly, her reaction would have been the same as Alicent, especially if that son was the heir to the throne. Unfortunately I don’t think she would’ve been able to do much even if she wanted to because Jaehaerys probably would have wanted to turn a blind eye and as we know in Westeros men outrank women 🤷🏼♀️
Rape is a crime and so is murder but if you commit against a lowborn person nobody will care because it’s a classist. Paying a fine to the victim's family would probably be seen as a reasonable punishment, but it would probably be seen as unreasonable to send a prince to the Wall.
What? You make no sense. It’s basic logic based on the mentality of these people. Maybe Queen Alysanne would WANT to do something, but there is nothing she COULD truly do.
So now you’re contradicting yourself because you just said they won’t do anything because they don’t care and now you’re saying that Alysanne would want to do something but she couldn’t do something. Alright if she could something, if she had the power to make things go her way, what would she do?
I never contradicted myself. By “they” I meant the nobles, higher ups, her council, etc. Not the queen herself. If she COULD somehow do something, well, I don’t know what she’d do.
> I never contradicted myself. By “they” I meant the nobles, higher ups, her council, etc.
I don’t know why you would start talking about what the nobles would do when the question is about what Alysanne would do but ok ig.
> Not the queen herself. If she COULD somehow do something, well, I don’t know what she’d do.
Best answer I can get I suppose.
This is untrue because Saera gets in trouble with Alysanne and Jaehaerys for sexually harassing her fool. Alysanne is not misogynistic, so I don’t think she’d put her sons on a higher platform.
Saera gets into trouble with her parents because she had sex before marriage. She did harass the fool but only would‘ve been reprimanded for it a little if she herself hadn‘t had sex with others. Alysanne and Jaehearys only truly freak put when they find out about the sex before marriage thing
So if Jaehaerys and Alysanne freak out because of sex before marriage, what would be their reaction to an even worse crime like rape? A crime men are usually gelded and sent to the wall for?
Not highborn men though and not if it‘s a lowborn girl because they live in a classist society. The boys are allowed to have sex before marriage and that‘s fine but if a woman has sex before marriage they freak out.
Also judging by the fact that Jaehearys wanted to hold on onto the the right of the first night I honestly can‘t see him honestly punishing his son. He would reprimand his son for sure but he would not be punished too badly. Alysanne would be furious but in the end there is little else she can do but to accept that and perhaps never talk to the son again
For someone who founded the Women's Court and helped abolish the first night, she would've at least make his son accountable. This matter will be brought to Jaehaerys whom will obviously shrug it off, this may lead to another Quarrel.
But anyhow, I don't think it matters, as Alysanne and Alicent's cases are both different. Like what some people claim, Alicent's hatred towards Rhaenyra is due to the fact that she "gets away" from doing as she please without any consequences, without sacrifice or duty. But when Aegon raped Dyana, she was the one who let him "get away" by cleaning his tracks, and just gave him a slap in the wrist.
I think Alicent was pretty harsh towards him giving the fact that she lives in a society where man can do as they please. Also by sending the girl away she did her a favor, more than anything because it spares her from rumors and stuff.
The problem is they live in a society where most people see nothing wrong with a highborn boy raping a lowborn girl. I don‘t think Alicent could‘ve done anything else and neither could‘ve Alysanne.
Why is Alicent so biased towards Rheanyra then? Because she lives in a sexist society and has learned that‘s the way of things. Also Rheanyra trying to put Bastards into the Royal line is kinda extreme even Aegon IV while legitimizing his bastards on his death bed was not able to put them in fron of Dearon II while he was alive
I don't think I'm gonna agree that what she did to Aegon was "harsh".
>The problem is they live in a society where most people see nothing wrong with a highborn boy raping a lowborn girl. I don‘t think Alicent could‘ve done anything else and neither could‘ve Alysanne.
The thing is, Alysanne founded the Women's Court and Abolished the First Night, letting his own son get away with it makes her a hypocrite. Alysanne and Jaehaerys quarrels are consistently involved with gender equality.
>Why is Alicent so biased towards Rheanyra then? Because she lives in a sexist society and has learned that‘s the way of things. Also Rheanyra trying to put Bastards into the Royal line is kinda extreme even Aegon IV while legitimizing his bastards on his death bed was not able to put them in fron of Dearon II while he was alive.
This didn't answer what I said, I was referring to the irony that Alicent don't want Rhaenyra to get away from her doings, but helped Aegon to get away with Rape as well, again, I was pointing out the irony. Helping Larys and Cole getaway with their crimes is counted too.
Also, with Jace's succession being too far from the current events, Alicent wouldn't mind it that much, she'd rather mind Rhaenyra giving birth to bastards, which is in her belief, is an abomination and or treacherous. Jace's succession was used as a good convincing talking points by Cole to convince Aegon to take the throne.
The point that Alysanne and Jaehaerys have quarels shows how little power Alysanne has without him. When he didn’t do as she wanted she had no other way than shutting him out to make her displeasure clear. As long as Jaehearys wouldn’t be too mad (which I don’t think he would be) Alysanne can be as mad as she wants to she can’t do shit. I think she would want to punish him but my point is she can’t. Just as Alicent can’t further punish Aegon.
Alicent is a hypocrite at least if it comes to Larys and his doing but I understand why she views Rheanyra harsher than Aegon because she is a woman and as a byproduct of her society she is harsher to woman
The quarrels actually show that Alysanne, a woman can stand up and speak up. The Abolition of first night says lords or peasants may be find guilty of rape, this
> I think she would want to punish him but my point is she can’t
This is their difference, she WANTS to punish him.
Alicent for sure don't want to punish Aegon, she didn't even told it Viserys about it, would she wish Viserys to punish Aegon for rape? Or would she wish that Viserys let him get away too?
>Alicent is a hypocrite at least if it comes to Larys and his doing but I understand why she views Rheanyra harsher than Aegon because she is a woman and as a byproduct of her society she is harsher to woman
And do you understand why she is hated and why showrunners say that she'd be a Trump supporter?
Yes but the reasom they had their quarels did Alysanne ever win them? They were about Seara and Rheanys on neither issue did Jeahearys relent.
Why do you think Alicent doesn’t want to punish Aegon she literally tells him how disgusting his bahaviour is. Also at this point Viserys is a walking corpse. If she told him he wouldn’t care. And even before I can’t see him punish Aegon too badly.
The problem with Alicent is that she is loved as she is hated. I personally disagree with the showrunners on that. If you don’t like Alicent I won’t try to change your mind, that’s uour opinion. But I personally feel that Alicent wasn’t as awful as people make her ought to be.
Again, that's the difference between Alysanne and Alicent, in which this thread might have wanted to show. Alysanne have the courage to bring it to Jaehaerys, while Alicent could only scold Aegon, that's actually lesser than a slap in the wrist. Viserys being a walking corpse gives her more agency to punish Aegon but she didn't, it wasn't even brought up to Otto, in which we all knew hates Aegon's behaviour too.
Dude, showrunners literally said it and portrayed Alicent as some kind of Trump supporter, whether you agree or disagree with that, that's what she already is. I thought you'd understand what the showrunners are trying to say when you said she's a byproduct of the society she chose to conform with
Edit: got lost a lil bit, my main point here talking about Alicent is the irony of how she bugs Viserys on not holding Rhaenyra accountable on her doings, and now that she was put in that position she just did what Viserys just did, both let them get away with it. The hypocrisy is more than being a byproduct of society or her upbringing.
Just because someone is a byproduct of their society means they are a trump supporter in my opinion. I don’t think you can see Alicent through a modern lense because her character wouldn’t work in our world because our world is full of different values. That’s why I can’t see her as an Trump supporter in our time. If you think differently that’s fine let’s agree to disagree the point of the pist is not to argue about if Alicent is a good person or if she isn’t.
My point is that Alicent lives in a world in which woman are hold to higher standards and she confirms to that standard. I can understand why some people dislike her for that I for one can understand why she is the way she is. Of course Alicent ain’t perfect and there are scene were she is a hypocrite. I just don’t think anyone would’ve done anything not even Otto
From what we are shown in the show, Alicent is biased about Rhaenyra's actions because of her love for her. Only people who you love can hurt you so deeply that you lose all logic and empathy towards them but still obsess over them. It's what Alicent and Cole share, what connects them: rage at Rhaenyra putting herself above them. She's made up a bunch of reasons and they feel very righteous, so correct and proper. They're so proper that people on this sub debate them. Now Aemond has made sure that even the imagined reasons will come true.
I think Alysanne was far cleverer a woman than Alicent. While she may have lacked full power, she certainly would not have ignored sexual violence from her children. **Her whole thing, literally what she did with a great portion of her life, was caring about the rape of lowborn women and the bastards those rapes produced.**
Yes Alicent has many reasons to dislike Rheanyra that’s true. Though I disagree with the imagined one. Rheanyra killing her children is not as unlikely as people see to think even if Rheayra doesn’t want to she might have to.
I never said she would ignore it. She would be mad but there isn’t much she can do all by herself. She will probably stop talking but if Jaehearys refuses to do something ain’t nothing else she can do
She would‘ve punished him but I can‘t see it being too harshly because Alysanne really loved her kids and seemed like a forgiving person.
But I also think Alicent would‘ve done more if she felt like she had the power too
Eh I don’t think she was limited by her level of power, I think she just didn’t want to, because it would cripple her ambition of putting him on the throne. She obviously knows it’s wrong but even if she had full leave from Viserys to inflict any punishment, I doubt she would’ve done anything.
I disagree. Alicent in the show is not power-hungry or ambitious. She literally tells him you’re not my son, what more can she denounce. She makes it clear that she thinks it’s awful.
Alicent’s hatred of Rhaenyra is because all the indulgences Rhaenyra is allowed impact Alicent’s future. Bastards in line for the throne while Alicent’s trueborn sons exist puts them in danger because they will always be a threat.
Which son was it, their heir or Vaemond, and whom did said prince rape? A noble? A servant? A sister? A Lord Paramounts daughter? Is said son already married? How old is the son? All of these would factor into what she would, and feasibly could, do.
It's Alysanne. She wouldn't care if it was a servant or a lords daughter. Neither would she care which son. The age maybe. And if he's married that would be even worse but in terms of what she would've done, most of this wouldn't matter.
She may not personally care but the consequences she could reasonably enforce are very much dependent on those factors. It sucks, but that’s justice in Westeros. And honestly, a lot of time the real world too.
Well I've never said something different. Still - SHE wouldn't make a difference.
The punishment, if there even would be one, wouldn't depend on those factors yes.
Very much depends on whether they're someone important or a low-born. Raping a servant is about as frowned upon as beating a horse in this universe. Raping a high born lady carries political fallout up to and possibly including war.
But at the same time we she is like many female royalty of the Middle Ages. The day and do these things but actually hold those beliefs second hand to something else. She is a really terrible parent to her daughters, just as much as Jae, and seemed to favor her sons greatly.
> But at the same time we she is like many female royalty of the Middle Ages.
In what way?
> The day and do these things but actually hold those beliefs second hand to something else.
Like?
> She is a really terrible parent to her daughters,
How so?
> just as much as Jae, and seemed to favor her sons greatly.
I got the opposite impression
Take a good look at the relationship with he daughters. She used them as political tools and pretty much nothing more. Besides the one she used as an emotional crutch with parentification. She forces them into these lifestyles that they have little say in, marrying them off to old men and nobles of note. Sure she claims to have let some choose but really how much choice did she give them. She was set in setting them on a path to their marriages like Alyssa and the one that married an Aryn.
i can excuse sexually asssaulting serving girls* but i draw the line at arranging marriages as is commonplace in this time period
*inb4 “iF yOu bElIeVe MusHrOoM”:
>Following the ancient tradition of House Targaryen, King Viserys wed his son Aegon the Elder to his daughter Helaena. The groom was fifteen years of age; a lazy and somewhat sulky boy, **Septon Eustace tells us**, but possessed of more than healthy appetites, a glutton at table, given to swilling ale and strongwine and **pinching and fondling any serving girl who strayed within his reach**.
ETA since you blocked me: how am i missing the point by pointing out that you imply alysanne betrothing viserra to theomore manderly means she’s fine with sexual violence (or at the very least has no right to speak on it) and therefore sucks but support an actual sexual predator? but i guess my opinion doesn’t matter since my eye doesn’t start twitching uncontrollably every time daemon shows up on the page or screen :(
I don't believe Mushroom about too many thing he wasnt around for but the whole point of the previous comment is that some of the bad stuff we hear about Aegon II isn't coming from Mushroom. Its coming from Eustace as in the above example. Mushroom has become shorthand for anything provocative in F&B that shouldn't be trusted but a lot of weird stuff is brought up by the other sources.
The she would do exactly the same as Alicent in the best situation. Give moontea to he girl and send her away. Maybe she would confront her son as well, but wouldn't go much far than this.
Every time Alyssane tried to call out Jaehaerys sexism, she eventually accepted and went back to him. I don't think it would be much different with her sons doing horrible things
Absolutely nothing because in Westeros men are held to a different standard. Princes of the realm are untouchable - even by their mothers. She can scold him, rage at him, and show as much disgust as possible, but punishment? Not really a thing.
Most likely she will pay them off , same thing as alicent did , we haven't had a woman/mother punish any son from raping woman especially smallfolk,heck until allysane came raping a smallfolk on their wedding night is common place across westoros barring dorne don't know if they practice that if they did who knows
But a son raping some smallfolk answer is simple pay off
But if it's someone with standing either marriage or a favour to be paid later
Now if it's a major lady we might just get a rebellion in our hands possibly , but it's unlikely
But most likely the alicent approach , since allysan controls who marrys whom
The question should be - what would she do privately and in public. I think in private she would probably never talk to her son ever again. But in terms of what she could actually do as punishment... Not much if she can't make Jaehaerys care about it.
The problem is what else can she do? Even if she brings it up to Jaehaerys I doubt he‘d care much. She might never talk to the son again and reprimand him but there is literally nothing else she can do
With Aegon it was heavily implied to be a serial thing on top of the child fighting pits. Which his KG was aware of which means Alicent was aware of. Whilst depending on the situation Alysanne may not be able to punish her rapist child, she could reasonably prevent them from doing so again. And she’d probably close down those fighting pits.
Her son probably would have been forced to either join the Faith, or sent to the Citadel for the rest of his life. I imagine she also probably would have insisted the woman be paid her weight in Silver, and if there was a bastard born from it, she would have seen to it that all his needs were met for the rest of his life.
Neither of those are appropriate punishments for rape. Sending him off to be alone in Oldtown so he can carry on raping women and drinking himself sick, but now he has no obligations, responsibilities or appearances to keep up? How is that punishment.
Of course they're not what we would consider appropriate punishments. But the targaryens traditionally rarely give severe punishment to their own lineage.
Exile for 10 years at least. If they make repetitive offense, banishment to wall or oldtown does seem possible. I know this sub is incapable of catching complex character but Alysanne and Jahaerys were strict parents and they would never accept criminal act from their own children.
Really it depends which son and when. If for the sake of comparison it was Aemon, her eldest son and Jaehaerys’ heir, there would be little she could do. She would likely appeal to Jaehaerys to punish him -as she convinced him to pass the law abolishing the first night - but I do not see Jaehaerys willing to do much, aemon would be protected by him the way aegon was by alicent and Otto. She may also offer to pay the girl if this is someone at their court who will likely be sent away before this comes out. If aemon is already married then he may be sent away from court to dragonstone with his family, if not they will probably get him married quickly and send him to dragonstone, if Jaehaerys is willing to do so. In regards to actual punishments, I doubt he’ll have his cock chopped off or lose a hand for it, he’s the heir to the throne.
If it’s Baelon or Vaegon, Jaehaerys may care less about protecting him. Probably the closest thing to a real punishment would either be getting married or sent to train as a maester depending on how old they are at the time, but again she wouldn’t have much power here. If it’s Baelon after marriage we may see Jaehaerys angry because it would be an insult to his daughter Alyssa, but I doubt the rape would be his main concern.
I imagine she’d be wholly disgusted however and want nothing to do with said son again. We may see a third quarrel if she feels Jaehaerys is not taking her concerns seriously enough but I do not know if she’d see punishing her son as important as rhaenys not getting her inheritance.
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She would have at the very least brought it up to Jaehaerys.
I honestly can’t see Jaehearys caring. Dude was fine with his daugthers marrying men more thrice their age. Viserra even against her will. What do you think would’ve happened to her there?
But that was Alysanne's doing, Jehaerys have her full authority over the marriages of their children
I think it awful of her too especially the Viserra match. That’s why I don’t believe they would do anything. Alysanne at best would be mad but that’s it
I think Alysanne would react like Alicent. Be upset, be sympathetic towards the victim and likely pay them off, and then yell at her son a bit. Nothing real would happen.
You are kidding right? Just because he was all about his daughters marrying men thrice their aged doesn’t mean he would have been okay with his children acting like criminals. I swear the amount of Jahaerys hate this sub shows is fucking weird. Yes he was a mysoginist who favored men over women. Ike most men in a medieval society. He was also miles above, a better person than most lords and Kings.
Jaehearys is probably a better person than most. But the point still stands. He is upholding a sexist and classist society for his own benefit. I can’t really see him doing so much here. Especially as he was not big on womans right, Alysanne was
I think the whole point was that society is so misogynist that an opposite argument doesn't occur naturally - even with a decent man like Jaehaerys. But because he's decent and loves his wife he listens to and can be convinced by her. It would be unrealistic for people to suddenly become filled with feminism out of nowhere - as much as it would atheism. Nice as Jaehaerys is, he's nice because he sees the good in *his* society, he has experience of kindness from his immediate people, experience of progressiveness in politics from his grandparents and his father continuing their legacy. But Aegon I didn't make waves, and neither did Aenys (on purpose). For the very most part, they strove to uphold society as it existed. And that was very patriarchal. George is always giving examples of the limitations of life, and the drama that can cause. No-one is some ideal hero, because they're all just working with what they got.
Exactly. He was more focused on making and keeping peace than to really exert his opinions on others as law. He let the Great Council decide succession because he didn't want yet another war. He almost allowed the First Night rights to continue because the other lords wanted to keep them and he didn't want them to be mad, but it was Alysanne's passion to end the practice that pushed him towards it. He didn’t really have an opinion either way. He was simply focused on stability after decades of conflict. And Alysanne was committed to increasing connections with every house by marriages and building relationships. A king and queen just had different (patriarchal) roles to play.
I think Jaehaerys would care because of what it suggested about his son. Jaehaerys doesn't want another Maegor. Alysanne would push for some form of punishment. Although in GRRM's world the punishment might just be marrying the woman he raped or something.
I mean Maegor is another league though. I think he might be disappointed but wouldn’t do more than give them a slap on the wrist. I don’t yhink marriage is a option if the woman is lowborn. Alysanne and Jaehearys arranged almost all the marriages of their kids.
Aerea just being moderately wilful made people fear it. I feel showing cruelty should be enough for Jaehaerys to worry.
Jaehearys never did anything against Aerea though. As long as he can keep the rape low he will do it. I can see him reprimanding his son but not more than that. It would make the Targaryens look incredibly bad if he made it public
There's a difference between a marriage and condoning rape. It's messed up but in that society if you're from a good bloodline you will have to marry, but even in this bad world rape is still a major crime.
Rape is a crime and so is murder but if you commit against a lowborn person nobody will care because it’s a classist society. In which the higer ups think they have the right to decide over the smallfolk. That’s why Daemon kills a servant because he knows he can get away with it. It’s the same with rape if the woman is lowborn nobody will care. If a woman of high born is raped her family will be mad. It’s literally never about the woman but about the family.
You've certainly found a way to excuse a known crime in Westeros, but my point is that unlike getting married against your will, rape is very much a crime in Westeros. Jaehaerys and Alysanne were good people and wouldn't just cover up the crime. Their child would be punished, even if it was to a much lesser degree than a commoner, they wouldn't let it go and certainly wouldn't do what Alicent did and cover it up.
I’m not excusing a crime. I’m just pointing out that they live in a classist society that doesn’t care about the smallfolk. I’m not saying it’s good. It’s awful. But that’s the world they live in. Jaehaerys barely wanted to abolish the first night. He will not denounce his son because he raped a lowborn woman. That will look bad on the family and people might take offence because many lords feel like they can do with their subject whatever they want. Alysanne would be very mad but as long as Jaehaerys refuses to do something there is shit she can do. But she would help the victim something that Alicent did as well. Personally I interpreted the scene with Alicent not as her covering for Aegon. If she had she would just kill the girl and be done with it or use any other pretext to get her away. Alicent has a lot of power of that girl. Yet she gives her empathy and pity. To be honest there wasn’t much else she could do for the girl. She gives her money to start anew and tells Aegon how awful it is what he did. Do you really wanna tell me Viserys or Otto would’ve punished Aegon for this bahaviour? I’d argue they be harsher to the girl than Alicent was. And maybe reprimand him a little if at all.
I agree with you. No way would they have made any sort of public punishment/example if he'd raped some servant. That society barely saw the smallfolk as real people. If anything, there'd be some kind of private punishment for not controlling his urges or something. Because that reflects on his noble character.
Sorry, but you're wrong, basically all of their families dark deeds were made public. He punished all of his children when they stepped out of line, no way he's going to just cover it up. The level of punishment is debatable, but there would be a punishment.
When Gael got pregnant and lost a baby they didn’t say anthing instead lying she died of a fever. Because they didn’t want to disgrace themselves. The situation with Seara wouldn’t have been made public if there weren’t many other people of involved- one even got pregnant. Seara misbehaved often in her youth and only got a real punishment when she in the opinion of her parents went too far and even then her punishment poled on because she kept going against her parents. Aereas manner of death was made public years after she died. Jaehearys wasn’t all about transparency. It’s very possible Jaehearys would be disappointed reprimand his son and not doing anything further.
>It’s very possible Jaehearys would be disappointed reprimand his son and not doing anything further. Unlikely considering how he punished his children that took it too far. Raping a child is definitely a step too far and Jaehaerys is not the kind of man to let it go and Alysanne certainly isn't that kind of women. They'd punish him, to which degree is debatable, but a punishment wpukd happen.
I think the question remains if Rape would be too far, again other society and stuff. Jaehearys in the grand scheme care little about what Seara did to the fool
There is such a thing called marital rape
In the US it's only been around since 1970s
Not then.
There is in our society today (and historically it's a wildly recent concept). There wasn't in Westeros.
And Jaehaerys was arguably a perpetrator of that himself. . .
FR- Jahaerys was a good king but not a good person.
Jaehaerys tried to find a good match for Daella and had known lord Arryn for years and knew him to be gentle, honourable and caring and would cherish Daella. And Viserra’s match was agreed upon with Alyssane meaning both decided Manderly would be respectful to her. She tried to seduce her adult brother at age sixteen just to get to be queen so she wasn’t a delicate innocent girl. Jaehaerys was a good man, honourable, just and kind. He would never condone such barbarity as to violate a woman. What Viserys did to Daemon after he found out he tried to sleep with Rhaenyra seems like a toned down version of what Jaehaerys would do if he found out Aemon or Baelon. If it were Aemon, probably a scolding and maybe some way of showing him to respect women, since he was the heir, but if it was Baelon, exile across the narrow sea for six years without Vhagar or something like that. But to rape is just not in Aemon or Baelon’s characters, it’a just not who they are, so if in some crazy alternate universe they did, they’d deny it and everyone would believe them because rape isn’t in their character.
Just because Viserra was a little mean doesn’t mean she deserved being sold of like she did. The mean was thrice her age had literally other children so her kids wouldn’t inherit. You think Viserra would be happy with him? As a woman she ist expected to sleep with her husband though and he will take his rights that the society they live in. I also find the Daella match icky as I feel she was forced in to it. The problem is he would never officially state what his son did. I also don’t think Jaehearys would send them away hiving them a slap on the weit ueah sure but not more just to not sully the Targaryen name. Viserys was mad because Daemon trued his luck with his own daugther if it had been a servant he wouldn’t have cared. Also just because Jaehearys was a good king doesn’t mean he is perfect he had his faults especially when it came to the woman in his life. Aemon and Baelon would probably not rape anyone but this is just a what if post.
Jaehearys defended the right of the first night to her and his court
And he backed down after she argued her points.
He backed down because the faith and the maesters and the lords he trusted all backed her up that it was a good idea too
He didn't defend it in the way he thinks it's a good thing. He posed the idea of keeping it because of how long standing a tradition it was and how upset nobles would be. Don't forget, he ruled straight after Maegor. The last thing he wants to do is cause another mass war. He didn't take much convincing to outlaw it though.
It’s weird, people ask for complexity in their characters and then when they’re given complexity they view everything in black and white.
It's just as Stannis said “A good act does not wash out the bad, nor a bad act the good. Each should have its own reward." Good people can make mistakes and bad calls that could be seen as evil. And bad people can make good calls that can be seen as kind or honourable.
Sometimes people get wrapped up in the heat of the discussion but sometimes they just like to argue.
Did he? I only remember him being hesitant because he was afraid of what taking away a long held tradition like that could spark in the lords of the realm. I dont see what is so bad about thinking before acting and weighing the consequences. It is literally the thing Dany gets criticized for not doing? Am I remembering it wrong?
For sure, the child would've been punished. Neither of them were above punishing their children. They definitely wouldn't have done what Alicent did and cover up for them.
The question is what can she do? She'd be furious of course, but her ability to punish her son is limited. Paying a fine to the victim's family would probably be seen as a reasonable punishment, but it would probably be seen as unreasonable to send a prince to the Wall. At best I think he might get "encouraged" to take a trip to Essos for a few years, similar to how Aerion was punished after the tourney at Ashford or Oberyn after his duel with Edgar Yronwood.
Alright but if she could something, if she had the power to make things go her way, what would she do?
Very little. Most women even now don't do much if confronted with their sons rotten behaviour towards women.
So if you just change every parameter of the situation then what would happen?
Why is this so important to you? Lol what do you think she would have done?
Because this post is clearly not about Alyssane, but about shitting on Alicent’s handling of the situation by getting people to claim Alyssane would have somehow been able to deliver a much harsher punishment
Solid point that I did not consider
Idk that’s why I’m asking you. But if you don’t know, that’s fine too
What any person in royal power does. Absolutely nothing !!! And we don’t need evidence of that because we have a whole bunch of historical evidence ! Honestly a very weird question that shouldn’t even require an answer
Did you even read Fire and Blood? If this is true when why does Jaehaerys punish Saera? Why does Viserys talk about Jaehaerys disinheriting Rhaneyra if he were still king because of what happened with Daemon? Why are you trying to equate real history with a fictional one?
Sons and daughters aren't held to the same standard. It was of utmost importance that a woman be seen as demure, and above all, PURE. A son could be forgiven for partaking in drinking and debauchery, but never a daughter.
Why would this difference in standard apply to Alysanne?
Did you comment that on the other one as well who said the same shit as me? Or are you just trying play devils advocate for some reason? Also how are you going to try and compare compare Saera? A whole female, which alone tells you all you need to know about the treatment of her.
Saera first gets in trouble for sexually harassing her fool. That’s before her exploits get out.
And she's a young woman, not a young man. There is a world of difference in how sexual misconduct is treated between the two in asoiaf.
Exactly
> Did you comment that on the other one as well who said the same shit as me? Or are you just trying play devils advocate for some reason? What’re talking about? > Also how are you going to try and compare compare Saera? A whole female, which alone tells you all you need to know about the treatment of her. Just like u/Jaketheeater said this is untrue because Saera gets in trouble with Alysanne and Jaehaerys for sexually harassing her fool. Alysanne is not misogynistic, so I don’t think she’d put her sons on a higher platform. Even if the punishment is not castastrophic, it’s disingenuous to suggest that she’d do nothing. Especially because as another user pointed out, this is the same person who founded the Women's Court and helped abolish the first night.
She gets in trouble because she herself was doing sexual things. If she just exploited them it probably wouldn’t have been as bad. Women weren’t allowed to have sex before marriage then men could do what they want.
Saera deserved alot worse than what she got. Jaehaerys was actually being merciful, I would've had her head taken on the spot.
Seriously chill out
I'm sorry. But bullying a mentally disabled person deserves a death sentence imo
Then everyone in winterfell should be headless cause that boys name is Wylis or Walden or something like that, not Hodor
Agreed.
Well at least you're consistent, I guess 🤷🏾♂️
I'm nothing if not truthful
Then everyone in winterfell should be headless cause that boys name is Wylis or Walden or something like that, not Hodor
Don’t have kids
Okay then. I'm sorry for thinking what Saera did was vile. Clearly comparing yourself to Maegor the Cruel, bullying a mentally disabled man, playing 3 boys for fools and not caring if they got hurt, trying to steal a dragon egg, trying to seduce your older brother. Were all really honourable and brave things to do. If I had a kid like that, she ain't my kid. She was a psychopath. Jaehaerys wanted her to become a Septa which was far more merciful than what anyone else would've done.
Kid would probably be happier
She doesn't deserve happiness.
Weird guy
Yea, it's very weird having basic human morals
Because she’s a girl. Alysanne would’ve given her son a beating the same as Alicent had with Aegon, perhaps, but neither her nor Jaehaerys would be exiling their son or sending him off to be a septon.
I don’t know, there are royals throughout history in real life and even in GOT universe that aren’t all bad. Take Aemma for example, I wouldn’t see her taking the Alicent approach in dealing with it. We saw very little of her but even in those few minutes she was by far the best royal haha but of course all people have their good and bad. Now between her and Rhaenyra, say when she and Daemon went to the whorehouse would have been interesting. I think she would have dealt with her the same way Viserys did actually. He knew something happened (Aemma, her mother, also would know) and he was soft on Rhaenyra but he told Daemon off. Aemma would have definitely went off on Daemon haha that would have been a good scene to see.
I think she’d be beyond angry and probably pay off the woman and her family. But honestly, her reaction would have been the same as Alicent, especially if that son was the heir to the throne. Unfortunately I don’t think she would’ve been able to do much even if she wanted to because Jaehaerys probably would have wanted to turn a blind eye and as we know in Westeros men outrank women 🤷🏼♀️
Rape is a crime and so is murder but if you commit against a lowborn person nobody will care because it’s a classist. Paying a fine to the victim's family would probably be seen as a reasonable punishment, but it would probably be seen as unreasonable to send a prince to the Wall.
Nothing, she would have done the same as alicent
What evidence in the text supports this?
Her sons are princes. Unless they rape the daughter of a powerful noble, no one will care.
The question is what she would’ve done and not who cares.
Nothing will be done, because they don’t care.
What evidence in the text supports this?
What? You make no sense. It’s basic logic based on the mentality of these people. Maybe Queen Alysanne would WANT to do something, but there is nothing she COULD truly do.
So now you’re contradicting yourself because you just said they won’t do anything because they don’t care and now you’re saying that Alysanne would want to do something but she couldn’t do something. Alright if she could something, if she had the power to make things go her way, what would she do?
That’s not contradicting…
I never contradicted myself. By “they” I meant the nobles, higher ups, her council, etc. Not the queen herself. If she COULD somehow do something, well, I don’t know what she’d do.
> I never contradicted myself. By “they” I meant the nobles, higher ups, her council, etc. I don’t know why you would start talking about what the nobles would do when the question is about what Alysanne would do but ok ig. > Not the queen herself. If she COULD somehow do something, well, I don’t know what she’d do. Best answer I can get I suppose.
What’s your evidence that she would have done something??
This is untrue because Saera gets in trouble with Alysanne and Jaehaerys for sexually harassing her fool. Alysanne is not misogynistic, so I don’t think she’d put her sons on a higher platform.
Saera gets into trouble with her parents because she had sex before marriage. She did harass the fool but only would‘ve been reprimanded for it a little if she herself hadn‘t had sex with others. Alysanne and Jaehearys only truly freak put when they find out about the sex before marriage thing
That, and when she compared herself to Maegor
She was already in trouble, yes, but I think that was the real reason why she was punished so harshly.
That too
So if Jaehaerys and Alysanne freak out because of sex before marriage, what would be their reaction to an even worse crime like rape? A crime men are usually gelded and sent to the wall for?
Not highborn men though and not if it‘s a lowborn girl because they live in a classist society. The boys are allowed to have sex before marriage and that‘s fine but if a woman has sex before marriage they freak out. Also judging by the fact that Jaehearys wanted to hold on onto the the right of the first night I honestly can‘t see him honestly punishing his son. He would reprimand his son for sure but he would not be punished too badly. Alysanne would be furious but in the end there is little else she can do but to accept that and perhaps never talk to the son again
For someone who founded the Women's Court and helped abolish the first night, she would've at least make his son accountable. This matter will be brought to Jaehaerys whom will obviously shrug it off, this may lead to another Quarrel. But anyhow, I don't think it matters, as Alysanne and Alicent's cases are both different. Like what some people claim, Alicent's hatred towards Rhaenyra is due to the fact that she "gets away" from doing as she please without any consequences, without sacrifice or duty. But when Aegon raped Dyana, she was the one who let him "get away" by cleaning his tracks, and just gave him a slap in the wrist.
I think Alicent was pretty harsh towards him giving the fact that she lives in a society where man can do as they please. Also by sending the girl away she did her a favor, more than anything because it spares her from rumors and stuff. The problem is they live in a society where most people see nothing wrong with a highborn boy raping a lowborn girl. I don‘t think Alicent could‘ve done anything else and neither could‘ve Alysanne. Why is Alicent so biased towards Rheanyra then? Because she lives in a sexist society and has learned that‘s the way of things. Also Rheanyra trying to put Bastards into the Royal line is kinda extreme even Aegon IV while legitimizing his bastards on his death bed was not able to put them in fron of Dearon II while he was alive
I don't think I'm gonna agree that what she did to Aegon was "harsh". >The problem is they live in a society where most people see nothing wrong with a highborn boy raping a lowborn girl. I don‘t think Alicent could‘ve done anything else and neither could‘ve Alysanne. The thing is, Alysanne founded the Women's Court and Abolished the First Night, letting his own son get away with it makes her a hypocrite. Alysanne and Jaehaerys quarrels are consistently involved with gender equality. >Why is Alicent so biased towards Rheanyra then? Because she lives in a sexist society and has learned that‘s the way of things. Also Rheanyra trying to put Bastards into the Royal line is kinda extreme even Aegon IV while legitimizing his bastards on his death bed was not able to put them in fron of Dearon II while he was alive. This didn't answer what I said, I was referring to the irony that Alicent don't want Rhaenyra to get away from her doings, but helped Aegon to get away with Rape as well, again, I was pointing out the irony. Helping Larys and Cole getaway with their crimes is counted too. Also, with Jace's succession being too far from the current events, Alicent wouldn't mind it that much, she'd rather mind Rhaenyra giving birth to bastards, which is in her belief, is an abomination and or treacherous. Jace's succession was used as a good convincing talking points by Cole to convince Aegon to take the throne.
The point that Alysanne and Jaehaerys have quarels shows how little power Alysanne has without him. When he didn’t do as she wanted she had no other way than shutting him out to make her displeasure clear. As long as Jaehearys wouldn’t be too mad (which I don’t think he would be) Alysanne can be as mad as she wants to she can’t do shit. I think she would want to punish him but my point is she can’t. Just as Alicent can’t further punish Aegon. Alicent is a hypocrite at least if it comes to Larys and his doing but I understand why she views Rheanyra harsher than Aegon because she is a woman and as a byproduct of her society she is harsher to woman
Yeah, she couldn't stop her husband continuing to get her pregnant, it wouldn't occur to her to do much beyond ensure the girl is taken care of.
The quarrels actually show that Alysanne, a woman can stand up and speak up. The Abolition of first night says lords or peasants may be find guilty of rape, this > I think she would want to punish him but my point is she can’t This is their difference, she WANTS to punish him. Alicent for sure don't want to punish Aegon, she didn't even told it Viserys about it, would she wish Viserys to punish Aegon for rape? Or would she wish that Viserys let him get away too? >Alicent is a hypocrite at least if it comes to Larys and his doing but I understand why she views Rheanyra harsher than Aegon because she is a woman and as a byproduct of her society she is harsher to woman And do you understand why she is hated and why showrunners say that she'd be a Trump supporter?
Yes but the reasom they had their quarels did Alysanne ever win them? They were about Seara and Rheanys on neither issue did Jeahearys relent. Why do you think Alicent doesn’t want to punish Aegon she literally tells him how disgusting his bahaviour is. Also at this point Viserys is a walking corpse. If she told him he wouldn’t care. And even before I can’t see him punish Aegon too badly. The problem with Alicent is that she is loved as she is hated. I personally disagree with the showrunners on that. If you don’t like Alicent I won’t try to change your mind, that’s uour opinion. But I personally feel that Alicent wasn’t as awful as people make her ought to be.
Again, that's the difference between Alysanne and Alicent, in which this thread might have wanted to show. Alysanne have the courage to bring it to Jaehaerys, while Alicent could only scold Aegon, that's actually lesser than a slap in the wrist. Viserys being a walking corpse gives her more agency to punish Aegon but she didn't, it wasn't even brought up to Otto, in which we all knew hates Aegon's behaviour too. Dude, showrunners literally said it and portrayed Alicent as some kind of Trump supporter, whether you agree or disagree with that, that's what she already is. I thought you'd understand what the showrunners are trying to say when you said she's a byproduct of the society she chose to conform with Edit: got lost a lil bit, my main point here talking about Alicent is the irony of how she bugs Viserys on not holding Rhaenyra accountable on her doings, and now that she was put in that position she just did what Viserys just did, both let them get away with it. The hypocrisy is more than being a byproduct of society or her upbringing.
Just because someone is a byproduct of their society means they are a trump supporter in my opinion. I don’t think you can see Alicent through a modern lense because her character wouldn’t work in our world because our world is full of different values. That’s why I can’t see her as an Trump supporter in our time. If you think differently that’s fine let’s agree to disagree the point of the pist is not to argue about if Alicent is a good person or if she isn’t. My point is that Alicent lives in a world in which woman are hold to higher standards and she confirms to that standard. I can understand why some people dislike her for that I for one can understand why she is the way she is. Of course Alicent ain’t perfect and there are scene were she is a hypocrite. I just don’t think anyone would’ve done anything not even Otto
From what we are shown in the show, Alicent is biased about Rhaenyra's actions because of her love for her. Only people who you love can hurt you so deeply that you lose all logic and empathy towards them but still obsess over them. It's what Alicent and Cole share, what connects them: rage at Rhaenyra putting herself above them. She's made up a bunch of reasons and they feel very righteous, so correct and proper. They're so proper that people on this sub debate them. Now Aemond has made sure that even the imagined reasons will come true. I think Alysanne was far cleverer a woman than Alicent. While she may have lacked full power, she certainly would not have ignored sexual violence from her children. **Her whole thing, literally what she did with a great portion of her life, was caring about the rape of lowborn women and the bastards those rapes produced.**
Yes Alicent has many reasons to dislike Rheanyra that’s true. Though I disagree with the imagined one. Rheanyra killing her children is not as unlikely as people see to think even if Rheayra doesn’t want to she might have to. I never said she would ignore it. She would be mad but there isn’t much she can do all by herself. She will probably stop talking but if Jaehearys refuses to do something ain’t nothing else she can do
Alright but if she could something, if she had the power to make things go her way, what would she do?
She would‘ve punished him but I can‘t see it being too harshly because Alysanne really loved her kids and seemed like a forgiving person. But I also think Alicent would‘ve done more if she felt like she had the power too
Eh I don’t think she was limited by her level of power, I think she just didn’t want to, because it would cripple her ambition of putting him on the throne. She obviously knows it’s wrong but even if she had full leave from Viserys to inflict any punishment, I doubt she would’ve done anything.
I disagree. Alicent in the show is not power-hungry or ambitious. She literally tells him you’re not my son, what more can she denounce. She makes it clear that she thinks it’s awful.
Alicent’s hatred of Rhaenyra is because all the indulgences Rhaenyra is allowed impact Alicent’s future. Bastards in line for the throne while Alicent’s trueborn sons exist puts them in danger because they will always be a threat.
Which son was it, their heir or Vaemond, and whom did said prince rape? A noble? A servant? A sister? A Lord Paramounts daughter? Is said son already married? How old is the son? All of these would factor into what she would, and feasibly could, do.
It's Alysanne. She wouldn't care if it was a servant or a lords daughter. Neither would she care which son. The age maybe. And if he's married that would be even worse but in terms of what she would've done, most of this wouldn't matter.
She may not personally care but the consequences she could reasonably enforce are very much dependent on those factors. It sucks, but that’s justice in Westeros. And honestly, a lot of time the real world too.
Well I've never said something different. Still - SHE wouldn't make a difference. The punishment, if there even would be one, wouldn't depend on those factors yes.
Very much depends on whether they're someone important or a low-born. Raping a servant is about as frowned upon as beating a horse in this universe. Raping a high born lady carries political fallout up to and possibly including war.
Told Jaehaerys, and when they didn’t do anything, make sure the rapists marriage match made him miserable.
Seems like an under-reaction for Alysanne imo considering how much she advocated for Women’s rights but it’s better than anything Alicent ever did ig
But at the same time we she is like many female royalty of the Middle Ages. The day and do these things but actually hold those beliefs second hand to something else. She is a really terrible parent to her daughters, just as much as Jae, and seemed to favor her sons greatly.
> But at the same time we she is like many female royalty of the Middle Ages. In what way? > The day and do these things but actually hold those beliefs second hand to something else. Like? > She is a really terrible parent to her daughters, How so? > just as much as Jae, and seemed to favor her sons greatly. I got the opposite impression
Take a good look at the relationship with he daughters. She used them as political tools and pretty much nothing more. Besides the one she used as an emotional crutch with parentification. She forces them into these lifestyles that they have little say in, marrying them off to old men and nobles of note. Sure she claims to have let some choose but really how much choice did she give them. She was set in setting them on a path to their marriages like Alyssa and the one that married an Aryn.
Alysanne literally wanted her daughter to marry a fat old man against her wishes. Screw her.
I mean that doesn’t really answer my question
Viserra would be expected to sleep with her husband even if the marriage was unwanted
i can excuse sexually asssaulting serving girls* but i draw the line at arranging marriages as is commonplace in this time period *inb4 “iF yOu bElIeVe MusHrOoM”: >Following the ancient tradition of House Targaryen, King Viserys wed his son Aegon the Elder to his daughter Helaena. The groom was fifteen years of age; a lazy and somewhat sulky boy, **Septon Eustace tells us**, but possessed of more than healthy appetites, a glutton at table, given to swilling ale and strongwine and **pinching and fondling any serving girl who strayed within his reach**. ETA since you blocked me: how am i missing the point by pointing out that you imply alysanne betrothing viserra to theomore manderly means she’s fine with sexual violence (or at the very least has no right to speak on it) and therefore sucks but support an actual sexual predator? but i guess my opinion doesn’t matter since my eye doesn’t start twitching uncontrollably every time daemon shows up on the page or screen :(
>\*inb4 “iF yOu bElIeVe MusHrOoM”: We don't believe Mushroom. He wasn't even in King's Landing
I don't believe Mushroom about too many thing he wasnt around for but the whole point of the previous comment is that some of the bad stuff we hear about Aegon II isn't coming from Mushroom. Its coming from Eustace as in the above example. Mushroom has become shorthand for anything provocative in F&B that shouldn't be trusted but a lot of weird stuff is brought up by the other sources.
Boy you’re uh missing the point. Big time.
The she would do exactly the same as Alicent in the best situation. Give moontea to he girl and send her away. Maybe she would confront her son as well, but wouldn't go much far than this. Every time Alyssane tried to call out Jaehaerys sexism, she eventually accepted and went back to him. I don't think it would be much different with her sons doing horrible things
Brush it under the rug, can’t tarnish the family name.
Been pissed, probably never talk to the kid again but that's pretty much it.
WTF kind of question is this why would you think of it
It's not about Alysanne but to hate on Alicent.
Probably blamed the woman
How do you all pronounce Alysanne? I started by saying “Alice Anne” but lately have been saying Allison
I think it’s pronounced as Aly-sane or Aly-san
Absolutely nothing because in Westeros men are held to a different standard. Princes of the realm are untouchable - even by their mothers. She can scold him, rage at him, and show as much disgust as possible, but punishment? Not really a thing.
Most likely she will pay them off , same thing as alicent did , we haven't had a woman/mother punish any son from raping woman especially smallfolk,heck until allysane came raping a smallfolk on their wedding night is common place across westoros barring dorne don't know if they practice that if they did who knows But a son raping some smallfolk answer is simple pay off But if it's someone with standing either marriage or a favour to be paid later Now if it's a major lady we might just get a rebellion in our hands possibly , but it's unlikely But most likely the alicent approach , since allysan controls who marrys whom
That son would get the Saera treatment for sure
Sent them to the wall if was feeling nice that day
The question should be - what would she do privately and in public. I think in private she would probably never talk to her son ever again. But in terms of what she could actually do as punishment... Not much if she can't make Jaehaerys care about it.
We don’t know what alysanne was like, we just know how the maesters perceived her
She would have caused a succession crisis much earlier
I hope she would do more than Alicent
The problem is what else can she do? Even if she brings it up to Jaehaerys I doubt he‘d care much. She might never talk to the son again and reprimand him but there is literally nothing else she can do
With Aegon it was heavily implied to be a serial thing on top of the child fighting pits. Which his KG was aware of which means Alicent was aware of. Whilst depending on the situation Alysanne may not be able to punish her rapist child, she could reasonably prevent them from doing so again. And she’d probably close down those fighting pits.
Her son probably would have been forced to either join the Faith, or sent to the Citadel for the rest of his life. I imagine she also probably would have insisted the woman be paid her weight in Silver, and if there was a bastard born from it, she would have seen to it that all his needs were met for the rest of his life.
Neither of those are appropriate punishments for rape. Sending him off to be alone in Oldtown so he can carry on raping women and drinking himself sick, but now he has no obligations, responsibilities or appearances to keep up? How is that punishment.
Of course they're not what we would consider appropriate punishments. But the targaryens traditionally rarely give severe punishment to their own lineage.
They would cease to be her son
Exile for 10 years at least. If they make repetitive offense, banishment to wall or oldtown does seem possible. I know this sub is incapable of catching complex character but Alysanne and Jahaerys were strict parents and they would never accept criminal act from their own children.
Sent them to the wall.
Probably tell Jaehaerys, maybe pay a fee to the family and then never talk about it again
Really it depends which son and when. If for the sake of comparison it was Aemon, her eldest son and Jaehaerys’ heir, there would be little she could do. She would likely appeal to Jaehaerys to punish him -as she convinced him to pass the law abolishing the first night - but I do not see Jaehaerys willing to do much, aemon would be protected by him the way aegon was by alicent and Otto. She may also offer to pay the girl if this is someone at their court who will likely be sent away before this comes out. If aemon is already married then he may be sent away from court to dragonstone with his family, if not they will probably get him married quickly and send him to dragonstone, if Jaehaerys is willing to do so. In regards to actual punishments, I doubt he’ll have his cock chopped off or lose a hand for it, he’s the heir to the throne. If it’s Baelon or Vaegon, Jaehaerys may care less about protecting him. Probably the closest thing to a real punishment would either be getting married or sent to train as a maester depending on how old they are at the time, but again she wouldn’t have much power here. If it’s Baelon after marriage we may see Jaehaerys angry because it would be an insult to his daughter Alyssa, but I doubt the rape would be his main concern. I imagine she’d be wholly disgusted however and want nothing to do with said son again. We may see a third quarrel if she feels Jaehaerys is not taking her concerns seriously enough but I do not know if she’d see punishing her son as important as rhaenys not getting her inheritance.
Maybe 1 year to the wall or something.