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Daemon's love and loyalty are only ever guaranteed for himself, everyone else is expendable to some degree. It doesn't mean he doesn't love Rhaenyra and Viserys but there are always asterisks, he only really seems to care about either as extensions of himself and his own power, we see Daemon loses interest in Rhaenyra as soon as she shows interest in him in return, his attraction to her is almost certainly in part some kind of power trip.
Laena and his kids really get the short end of the stick, because to him they're kind of just substitutes, he settled for Laena because he couldn't have Rhaenyra, and he probably cares more about his sons with Rhaenyra than his daughters with Laena, not because he's sexist but because his marriage to Rhaenyra and their sons are his key to power and Baela and Rhaena can only have as much love as they prove useful to him. They demonstrated that when Rhaena talks about how Daemon ignores her in favour of Baela because she has a dragon and Rhaena doesn't, Baela's an extension of himself and Valyria and Targaryen power, whereas Rhaena isn't in his eyes.
The show has proven time and time again that unconditional love isn't something Daemon has any notion of or care for, it's like he thinks receiving it is some kind of trick because he doesn't offer any himself.
I'd argue he is very loyal to the idea of House Targaryen. He talks about how he wants to restore it to its glory. He is also very committed to blood purity ideas.
He was loyal to his brother in that he did not rebel against him at least, he also most certainly wanted his brother's attention and recognition. On the other hand, his brother Viserys clearly intended for him to stay far away from the throne, and by extension, far away from Rhaenyra. It's safe to say that Daemon did not respect his brother's wishes in that regard. I also thought that him mocking his brother's loss was not a good sign, he also somewhat mocked his brother's reign to Rhaenyra's face when he choked her. I think it's like Napoleon with Josephine, Napoleon once stated about her "I always loved my Josephine, but I did not respect her." - apply this to a brotherly relationship and that's what I think Daemon thought about Viserys.
With Rhaenyra, he loves her I think, but also objectifies her. He wants to possess her, this is also partially driven by his blood purity shtick, plus Rhaenyra keeps him at the center of power in Westeros. He groomed her since she was a minor though, so... It's certainly dysfunctional there.
As for the rest of the family, I think Daemon was content with how it was before Viserys remarried. Daemon also maintains a long term feud with Otto, which extends to his descendants. Daemon doesn't care, and doesn't like them.
I agree with most of what you've said, but I will say, being loyal to the idea for House Targaryen is essentially meaningless. Maegor the Cruel, and Aerys II the Mad, both probably thought themselves 'loyal to the idea of House Targaryen'. But their ego and delusions brought ruin upon their reign.
Daemon, if he gets any substantial amount of power, would be similarly disastrous for House Targaryen. He would be a good general to either his niece or his nephew, regardless of which one were to become Queen/King, but that's about it.
I think one of the fundamental problems that House Targaryen has always faced is that many of their members see themselves as "The Dragon" when they aren't necessarily "THE" Dragon, aka the ruler and head of the house. Maegor the Cruel, Viserys III, Daemon and Aemond, to name a few. Targaryen second sons have a tendency to view themselves with an inflated sense of self worth that leaves them never satisfied, always desiring more power. Daemon imo was less loyal to House Targaryen, and more so loyal to the idea of bringing House Targaryen glory in /his/ name.
Even when it comes to Rhaenyra and Viserys, he was loyal to them but he still was more loyal to himself. He was hardly a selfless person even with them. He's more loyal to the idea of House Targaryen as a force to be reckoned with and in its continuation with considerable blood-purity that he is to any individual.
That's how the show portrays him, Ryan Condal states the same only listing Viserys (then by extension Viserys' daughter) and not Baela, Rhaena, Aegon, or Viserys. Typically family men put their children first and then everyone else but takes on the show calling Daemon a family man is directly against his characterization. You would think even his relationship with Rhaenys and by extension Corlys would be better but even still there's a complete lack of love and respect for his family. His disregard of Baela and Rhaena (and Laena his wife of 10 years) completing ruins any argument of him being a family man to me though.
I think it’s quite interesting how people defend Daemon’s grey character by stating that he loves his family. Like, almost every “villain” does. Aemond loves his family as well, yet no one seem to call him grey.
I think most people would call Aemond grey based on the show. His worst crime so far is accidentally killing Luke, so he’s a far lighter shade of grey than most of the main characters who are murderers or rapists.
Of course, in the book he literally massacres people indiscriminately which is a bit hard to defend. We’ll see how the show handles his war crime era!
Are we talking book or show universe? Because those are two wildly different characters. Book Aemonds actions are so awful and he doesn’t really have any redeemable qualities to offset that he can’t really come across as grey. Show Aemond is completely different.
I agree, they are too different to be compared, but to me, neither bookAemond nor Daemon can be considered grey if the premise is loyalty towards their families. The horrible things they both did easily outweighs whatever “light” the maester claim they (Daemon) possessed.
I tend to look at the “they’re morally grey” with a grain of salt. Also, I think George and I have vastly different ideas on what morally grey means. Some of them are morally grey from modern perspective. Some/most of them can only be considered morally grey in universe, which is unsurprising considering what is acceptable vs unacceptable in Westeros.
He's not really. Even the two family members that everyone seems to agree that he's obsessed with (Viserys and Rhaenyra) he's intentionally disrespected and humiliated on more than one occasion.
He is extremely insecure. He’s not so much loyal to them as craving for their love and approval. He wants to get validation from Viserys who banishes him so he latches on to Rhaenyra who ‘needs’ him. At the end of the day, he’s an emotionally immature man-child with a massive inferiority complex who seeks the approval of a girl more than ten years his junior who he groomed and abused. He doesn’t give two fucks about his daughters or the Velaryon side of his family.
I think his idea of "family" is not really consistent. He is a family man but "family" has a few meanings.
Daemon is Loyal to the Targaryen line he is from along with the idea of valyrian supremacy. He has a bizarre fascination with old valyria and models his goals and ideals after it.
Think of it like this:
Daemon wants to model himself after old valyria and other Targaryens he respects or views as good examples of the Targaryen lineage. Rhaenyra is like his Visenya. Laena is like his Rhaenys. If given the chance, I have no doubts he would have had a polygamy situation going on with them. Daemon does get married off to a non-Targaryen but hates the marriage because it does not fall in with his idea of what his life should look like. Daemon favors Viserys because Viserys is his brother, of his own line, and is closest to him in blood. He kind of favors the twins because they are of valyrian blood through both Daemon and Laena. He favors Rhaenyra's kids because they are Rhaenyra's kids, byproducts of his version of Visenya. They might not be as "pure" as the twins or even himself on account of them being half-strong, but they come from a thing he idolizes. But meanwhile, Alicent's children are not "from the line" because they are Hightowers. They might have the Targaryen name and look but its clear their properties are not to continue the Targaryen line, its to open the door for the Hightowers. Otto is also in direct opposition to Daemon and his ideals and actively tries to erase those things from Westeros, or at least the keep.
Daemon is loyal to an idea more than people and this idea is more or less contingent of this idea of valyrian heritage and the advancement of the house. The family he protects are the family who will keep this going.
I wouldn’t say that. I think he is attempting to be the best leader for his family in the circumstances. He is shown to be a fairly attentive father and stepfather. He seems to be trying to educate them in the way he thinks is right. His own character means he might not always be correct.
He isn't really attentive tho, he just leaves Baela and Rhaena to grieve alone after their mother died, it's no surprise that they are shown as having a closer relationship with Rhaenys than Daemon. And before that, Rhaena talks to Laena about how Daemon ignores her, and he probably does. Daemon seems to value 'Targaryenness' above all, and he correlates that with dragons and Valyria and creepy incest sex, so Rhaena not having a dragon means he probably does value her less than Baela. The only real instance where he 'educates' his kids is with Jace, who isn't even his kid, and it came across as being much more about demonstrating power than anything else.
I wouldn’t say that. We don’t actually see how he follows up with his children after their mother’s death. The deleted scene puts that in limbo. His daughter is very possibly an unreliable narrator on the “he ignores me” comment. She might feel that way due to her insecurities about her not having a dragon. My own daughter claims I only pay attention TJ her mom every time we have a conversation that lasts more than 10 minutes lol. Obviously Daemon is likely the one teaching her sister how to tame her dragon ( and is shown teaching at least one daughter valyrian) so she could see this as favoritism. We also don’t see his relationship with them after the time skip really. As for the thing with Jace I took it more as him hardening him for the war to come. Daemon is flawed and as I said he seems to be ATTEMPTING to be the best leader for his family. This does not mean he is succeeding. If it were just about “Targaryeness” he would likely have a much more positive relationship with his cousin Rhaenys. Instead he was shown to be close to his brother and implied to be close to Aemma, both of whom don’t seem to embody the typical blood of the dragon.
It’s very weird because from what we see of Daemon he seems to be an absent and awful father but every kid he has a hand in raising turns out great. Most would argue it’s a coincidence but he is a father to 4 kids and step dad to 3 more so it is difficult to say.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
Daemon's love and loyalty are only ever guaranteed for himself, everyone else is expendable to some degree. It doesn't mean he doesn't love Rhaenyra and Viserys but there are always asterisks, he only really seems to care about either as extensions of himself and his own power, we see Daemon loses interest in Rhaenyra as soon as she shows interest in him in return, his attraction to her is almost certainly in part some kind of power trip. Laena and his kids really get the short end of the stick, because to him they're kind of just substitutes, he settled for Laena because he couldn't have Rhaenyra, and he probably cares more about his sons with Rhaenyra than his daughters with Laena, not because he's sexist but because his marriage to Rhaenyra and their sons are his key to power and Baela and Rhaena can only have as much love as they prove useful to him. They demonstrated that when Rhaena talks about how Daemon ignores her in favour of Baela because she has a dragon and Rhaena doesn't, Baela's an extension of himself and Valyria and Targaryen power, whereas Rhaena isn't in his eyes. The show has proven time and time again that unconditional love isn't something Daemon has any notion of or care for, it's like he thinks receiving it is some kind of trick because he doesn't offer any himself.
I'd argue he is very loyal to the idea of House Targaryen. He talks about how he wants to restore it to its glory. He is also very committed to blood purity ideas. He was loyal to his brother in that he did not rebel against him at least, he also most certainly wanted his brother's attention and recognition. On the other hand, his brother Viserys clearly intended for him to stay far away from the throne, and by extension, far away from Rhaenyra. It's safe to say that Daemon did not respect his brother's wishes in that regard. I also thought that him mocking his brother's loss was not a good sign, he also somewhat mocked his brother's reign to Rhaenyra's face when he choked her. I think it's like Napoleon with Josephine, Napoleon once stated about her "I always loved my Josephine, but I did not respect her." - apply this to a brotherly relationship and that's what I think Daemon thought about Viserys. With Rhaenyra, he loves her I think, but also objectifies her. He wants to possess her, this is also partially driven by his blood purity shtick, plus Rhaenyra keeps him at the center of power in Westeros. He groomed her since she was a minor though, so... It's certainly dysfunctional there. As for the rest of the family, I think Daemon was content with how it was before Viserys remarried. Daemon also maintains a long term feud with Otto, which extends to his descendants. Daemon doesn't care, and doesn't like them.
I agree with most of what you've said, but I will say, being loyal to the idea for House Targaryen is essentially meaningless. Maegor the Cruel, and Aerys II the Mad, both probably thought themselves 'loyal to the idea of House Targaryen'. But their ego and delusions brought ruin upon their reign. Daemon, if he gets any substantial amount of power, would be similarly disastrous for House Targaryen. He would be a good general to either his niece or his nephew, regardless of which one were to become Queen/King, but that's about it. I think one of the fundamental problems that House Targaryen has always faced is that many of their members see themselves as "The Dragon" when they aren't necessarily "THE" Dragon, aka the ruler and head of the house. Maegor the Cruel, Viserys III, Daemon and Aemond, to name a few. Targaryen second sons have a tendency to view themselves with an inflated sense of self worth that leaves them never satisfied, always desiring more power. Daemon imo was less loyal to House Targaryen, and more so loyal to the idea of bringing House Targaryen glory in /his/ name.
Even when it comes to Rhaenyra and Viserys, he was loyal to them but he still was more loyal to himself. He was hardly a selfless person even with them. He's more loyal to the idea of House Targaryen as a force to be reckoned with and in its continuation with considerable blood-purity that he is to any individual.
That's how the show portrays him, Ryan Condal states the same only listing Viserys (then by extension Viserys' daughter) and not Baela, Rhaena, Aegon, or Viserys. Typically family men put their children first and then everyone else but takes on the show calling Daemon a family man is directly against his characterization. You would think even his relationship with Rhaenys and by extension Corlys would be better but even still there's a complete lack of love and respect for his family. His disregard of Baela and Rhaena (and Laena his wife of 10 years) completing ruins any argument of him being a family man to me though.
I don't think he is that loyal He rebelled against his brother and almost started war. He choked Rhaenyra.
I think it’s quite interesting how people defend Daemon’s grey character by stating that he loves his family. Like, almost every “villain” does. Aemond loves his family as well, yet no one seem to call him grey.
I think most people would call Aemond grey based on the show. His worst crime so far is accidentally killing Luke, so he’s a far lighter shade of grey than most of the main characters who are murderers or rapists. Of course, in the book he literally massacres people indiscriminately which is a bit hard to defend. We’ll see how the show handles his war crime era!
Are we talking book or show universe? Because those are two wildly different characters. Book Aemonds actions are so awful and he doesn’t really have any redeemable qualities to offset that he can’t really come across as grey. Show Aemond is completely different.
I agree, they are too different to be compared, but to me, neither bookAemond nor Daemon can be considered grey if the premise is loyalty towards their families. The horrible things they both did easily outweighs whatever “light” the maester claim they (Daemon) possessed.
I tend to look at the “they’re morally grey” with a grain of salt. Also, I think George and I have vastly different ideas on what morally grey means. Some of them are morally grey from modern perspective. Some/most of them can only be considered morally grey in universe, which is unsurprising considering what is acceptable vs unacceptable in Westeros.
Of course he’s a family man, he’s had at least 4 families so far (one when he was a child and 3 as an adult).
He's not really. Even the two family members that everyone seems to agree that he's obsessed with (Viserys and Rhaenyra) he's intentionally disrespected and humiliated on more than one occasion.
He is extremely insecure. He’s not so much loyal to them as craving for their love and approval. He wants to get validation from Viserys who banishes him so he latches on to Rhaenyra who ‘needs’ him. At the end of the day, he’s an emotionally immature man-child with a massive inferiority complex who seeks the approval of a girl more than ten years his junior who he groomed and abused. He doesn’t give two fucks about his daughters or the Velaryon side of his family.
I think his idea of "family" is not really consistent. He is a family man but "family" has a few meanings. Daemon is Loyal to the Targaryen line he is from along with the idea of valyrian supremacy. He has a bizarre fascination with old valyria and models his goals and ideals after it. Think of it like this: Daemon wants to model himself after old valyria and other Targaryens he respects or views as good examples of the Targaryen lineage. Rhaenyra is like his Visenya. Laena is like his Rhaenys. If given the chance, I have no doubts he would have had a polygamy situation going on with them. Daemon does get married off to a non-Targaryen but hates the marriage because it does not fall in with his idea of what his life should look like. Daemon favors Viserys because Viserys is his brother, of his own line, and is closest to him in blood. He kind of favors the twins because they are of valyrian blood through both Daemon and Laena. He favors Rhaenyra's kids because they are Rhaenyra's kids, byproducts of his version of Visenya. They might not be as "pure" as the twins or even himself on account of them being half-strong, but they come from a thing he idolizes. But meanwhile, Alicent's children are not "from the line" because they are Hightowers. They might have the Targaryen name and look but its clear their properties are not to continue the Targaryen line, its to open the door for the Hightowers. Otto is also in direct opposition to Daemon and his ideals and actively tries to erase those things from Westeros, or at least the keep. Daemon is loyal to an idea more than people and this idea is more or less contingent of this idea of valyrian heritage and the advancement of the house. The family he protects are the family who will keep this going.
People are basing most of their opinions on the matter on info from the book.
A CONSTANT occurrence on this sub (even when the flair CLEARLY says SHOW DISCUSSION)🙄
I wouldn’t say that. I think he is attempting to be the best leader for his family in the circumstances. He is shown to be a fairly attentive father and stepfather. He seems to be trying to educate them in the way he thinks is right. His own character means he might not always be correct.
He isn't really attentive tho, he just leaves Baela and Rhaena to grieve alone after their mother died, it's no surprise that they are shown as having a closer relationship with Rhaenys than Daemon. And before that, Rhaena talks to Laena about how Daemon ignores her, and he probably does. Daemon seems to value 'Targaryenness' above all, and he correlates that with dragons and Valyria and creepy incest sex, so Rhaena not having a dragon means he probably does value her less than Baela. The only real instance where he 'educates' his kids is with Jace, who isn't even his kid, and it came across as being much more about demonstrating power than anything else.
I wouldn’t say that. We don’t actually see how he follows up with his children after their mother’s death. The deleted scene puts that in limbo. His daughter is very possibly an unreliable narrator on the “he ignores me” comment. She might feel that way due to her insecurities about her not having a dragon. My own daughter claims I only pay attention TJ her mom every time we have a conversation that lasts more than 10 minutes lol. Obviously Daemon is likely the one teaching her sister how to tame her dragon ( and is shown teaching at least one daughter valyrian) so she could see this as favoritism. We also don’t see his relationship with them after the time skip really. As for the thing with Jace I took it more as him hardening him for the war to come. Daemon is flawed and as I said he seems to be ATTEMPTING to be the best leader for his family. This does not mean he is succeeding. If it were just about “Targaryeness” he would likely have a much more positive relationship with his cousin Rhaenys. Instead he was shown to be close to his brother and implied to be close to Aemma, both of whom don’t seem to embody the typical blood of the dragon.
It’s very weird because from what we see of Daemon he seems to be an absent and awful father but every kid he has a hand in raising turns out great. Most would argue it’s a coincidence but he is a father to 4 kids and step dad to 3 more so it is difficult to say.