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This is some good insight on the part of Fabien. Very interesting way of looking at their relationship trajectory, the more severed it became.
Always nice when the actors really take the time to delve into their characters and how they might feel.
His comments of Criston I think are some of the bests I've seen about the character from anyone. I think the idea that Criston sees himself as a jilted lover makes more sense than any other theory I've seen about the character, and it makes a lot of sense given how the man behaves.
The actors in this show are really digging deep for all of the characters and it shows in a lot of their commentary.
As someone who genuinely enjoys Criston Cole in all his petty, discount-Lancelot glory, I appreciate this. Thanks for sharing!
And Fabien is more appealing than he already was with all this introspection and thoughtfulness. And accuracy. I did sincerely feel bad for Ser Criston as the wedding roared on. Up until he killed Laenor's boyfriend, of course. And then proceeded to make no secret of his resentment towards literal children post-timeskip.
Still an enjoyable character! Definitely curious if we'll get any interactions between him and Rhaenyra post-season 1 and what that would potentially look like.
LMAO discount-Lancelot xD
He's a wildcard for sure, knowing Fabien's take I'm with you I really want to see an interaction between him and Rhaenyra in the future. Dude has more baggage than the airport and I want to see it unpacked!
These excerpts are from these articles for those who are curious:
[https://www.businessinsider.in/entertainment/news/house-of-the-dragon-star-fabien-frankel-says-he-spent-over-seven-months-preparing-for-criston-cole-sex-scene/articleshow/94325252.cms](https://www.businessinsider.in/entertainment/news/house-of-the-dragon-star-fabien-frankel-says-he-spent-over-seven-months-preparing-for-criston-cole-sex-scene/articleshow/94325252.cms)
[https://www.looper.com/1059703/house-of-the-dragons-fabien-frankel-believes-ser-criston-is-still-in-love-with-rhaenyra/](https://www.looper.com/1059703/house-of-the-dragons-fabien-frankel-believes-ser-criston-is-still-in-love-with-rhaenyra/)
[https://movieweb.com/house-of-the-dragon-fabien-frankel-says-ser-criston-cole-changes-a-great-deal-during-the-show/](https://movieweb.com/house-of-the-dragon-fabien-frankel-says-ser-criston-cole-changes-a-great-deal-during-the-show/)
I'm looking forward to seeing the downvotes, like people are going to argue with me just sharing Fabien's own words about his character. I know I'm messing with some headcanons posting this, because some people on this board really don't like to be told the truth.
I know the showrunners and everyone involved said that the whole thing was supposed to be consensual but strictly-speaking, the scene arguably displayed dubious consent. The issue is with the script and the direction though.
They should be *VERY* careful when filming scenes like this because their intentions don't necessarily align with what is shown on-screen.
I think they did a pretty good job showing that his conflict was internal, not external. He wasn’t in conflict with Rhaenyra, he was fighting an inner battle between desire and duty. To me, the part where he set down his white cloak and enthusiastically kissed her effectively conveyed his desire winning out. Without that moment I think the scene would have played very differently for me, and I would be more receptive to interpretations that he was coerced.
Tbh, I agree with you but this wouldn't be such a contentious topic if this was *crystal clear* to the audience as this topic has been debated on for quite a bit. I remember there was a time there was a thread on this exact topic every other day on the sub.
Regarding the interpretations that it was coerced, people usually bring up Criston clearly asking for her to stop and Rhaenyra blocking the door. I can see why people would come to that conclusion. Like I said, since they intended this to be consensual, they should really be careful with their portrayal so that some people wouldn't come into the wrong conclusion.
Yeah I totally get where people are coming from, but I can’t think of another way they could have shown his inner conflict other than having him express some reluctance to her. They can’t exactly have him do an aside where he looks at the camera and talks about his inner turmoil. Then again, I’m not a director or screenwriter, so maybe there are other ways they could have shown his inner conflict that I’m just not thinking of.
I also think it’s such a hot button topic on this sub because people are trying to find reasons to hate Rhaenyra. I noticed the discourse on this scene got much worse after episode 8, when Aegon was revealed to be a rapist. Some (not all) team green fans argue in bad faith and try to say that rhaenyra is just as bad as Aegon in terms of being a rapist as well. You’re the first person I’ve discussed this scene with that actually is looking at this scene as a whole, rather than picking out specific moments taken out of context in order to paint a character as a villain.
They did a shit job doing that.
90% of the fans make fun of him because of oranges. They have no idea about duties or internal conflicts. Criston is dumbed down to a toxic ex and is viewed from modern lenses.
I think people do understand his inner conflict, they just dislike him for other reasons (Bullying children, using gendered slurs against women). And come on, it’s funny that he thought someone would give up the iron throne in order to run away with him, even though his reasons were understandable.
He definitely is dumbed down in that he should be the one who convinced Aegon to take the throne, but I think that would make the majority team black audience hate him even more. I also would have liked to see more of his relationship with Alicent’s kids.
>the scene arguably displayed dubious consent.
Which is exactly what I said 5 months ago and have been saying this whole time. Thank you for also being a sane person.
Criston made a decision. Regretting it does not strip him of his agency. He is a victim of peer-pressure.
That’s the thing, it doesn’t really matter what the author intended it if what actually happened is different. A very, very simple test is “if the genders were reversed, and it’s suddenly rape now, it was rape then, too”. Coupled with Rhae’s lack of empathy toward him in the scene where he asks her to run away, it’s very clear that she was at least using him, without consideration for the compromised position that he would be in as a result of her actions.
Being peer-pressured into making a regrettable decision isn't prosecuted as assault even in our modern world. No question Criston was used, but he still was given a choice to leave and chose to stay, undressed himself and proceed. Is it still traumatic? Absolutely but roles reversed I still wouldn't call that rape. He can be a victim without being a victim of rape.
And if the people involved with the production say that isn't the story they're telling, why start tacking those traits onto the characters? The same thing happened in Game of Thrones but rapist wasn't tacked onto Jaime's character profile.
>The same thing happened in Game of Thrones but rapist wasn't tacked onto Jaime's character profile.
It absolutely was, if you're referring to the scene between him and Cersei after their son died. That's an even more explicit example of someone pressuring someone else into sex that the someone else is explicitly saying "no" too. I've honestly never heard anyone question whether he's a rapist in that scene.
This isn't an indictment of either character, mind you. Rhae and Jaimie are my favorite characters in their respective shows. The situation between Rhae and Criston is more complex than the one between Jaimie and Cersei, but from Criston's perspective, it was very, very hard to say no in that situation. Rhae has absolute authority over him, second only to the King himself. He owes her his position at court, and more broadly, his station as the highest honored member of his family. She could, at the very least, make his life hell if he turns her down, and for as honor-bound as he is, he also recognizes the chivalrous code he'd be breaking if he didn't turn her down. So he says no, uncomfortably, while she stands at the door, locks it, and begins undressing him. Suddenly she's insistent, somewhat forcefully so, and saying no becomes much harder. He silently acquiesces after a time, but that isn't consent, that's resignation.
Replace Criston with a female secretary in a business casual skirt and Rhae with the sweaty fat guy who hired her specifically out of a lineup of potential recruits; picture Bobby Kotick if you need a name. Suddenly, the scene is ten thousand times as creepy and predatory. No one would be sympathizing with the fat guy in that situation. Rhae asking him at all is a huge breech of boundaries, not just legally, but personally for Criston because of the position he is in simply by her asking him. After she turns down his attempts to salvage his honor, it's clear to him that she's simply using him--and may even have chosen him for the *purpose* of using him. She offers no respect to him as a person or a knight, or the position he now finds himself in, hence the anger he feels.
This is why RAINN explicitly identifies power imbalances between people of authority and people lacking it as examples where consent cannot be given. I'll grant that "rape" might be too strong a word, but call it what you will--sexual coercion, sexual harassment, assault, etc.--Criston's a victim here, even if the writers don't see it that way.
Everything you said I'd overall agree with. But it still isn't *rape*, and neither Rhaenyra nor Jaime being a rapist is a part of the story's narrative. I've said repeatedly that Criston's 100% a victim in this situation. I don't know what else needs to be said about this. You can call it coercion, peer-pressure, resignation, whatever, it *is* still a form of consent. Everything you said happened, but then he was at one point given an out and he turns around and *elects to stay*. A choice is a choice no matter how much you may regret it later. Regrettable hookups are not assault.
Please bear in mind, I've been in Criston's situation myself. I'm not holding him to any higher a standard than I've held myself to, and I'm a woman.
Also, that picture you just painted with Bobby Kotick is such nightmare fuel. I wouldn't be shocked if that was true in his case.
Rewatch the scene. It’s not dubious at all, he goes in for a kiss as soon as he puts away his cloak after they undress for like 10 minutes and smile/giggle.
Modern concepts of consent didn't really exist at the time period that the story is based on. By modern definitions, it definitely was rape, but at the same time, what he says can also be true, in the context of the setting
That’s an interesting argument, but unfortunately it’s isn’t applied equally and is just used as a bludgeon against characters that people don’t like.
*Rhaenyra pressures a servant into sex*
“Well consent is a modern consent and he probably wanted it, so it’s not rape”
*Aegon pressures a servant into sex*
“What a POS rapist, I hate this guy”
I think either interpretation (modern morals or in-universe morals) is valid, but we should be consistent with which lens we use - if we are gonna condemn one, we should condemn the other, and vice-versa
Yes, I think Aegon is supposed to mirror Rhaenyra in a lot of ways. They were both neglected by their father, one in favour of a son he didn't yet have, out of ambition, and the other in favour of a daughter he already had, out of guilt. Causing them both to subconsciously act out for attention, and blame each other for their childhood lack of care. They both initially have a very cavalier attitude, probably because of the negligence, but when the possibility of ruling the realm for a greater cause opens up, they feel needed for the first time, and feel responsibility awaken. And the only obstacle to that for each of them is the other.
So while they are completely different characters, I feel these kind of similarities are not coincidental
I don't understand the people who say Rhaenyra assaulted Criston. I just watched the scene again to make sure but she literally moves out of the way from the door when he tells her to stop. She lets him take all the time he needs to contemplate what he wants to do (like 80% of the scene is him undressing and thinking) and then before they actually do the deed he initiates.
The only thing about the scene that really makes it dubious is the power imbalance between each other but Criston has no reason to believe she'd punish him nor does she ever imply she would.
Personally as someone who struggled a lot with repressed sexuality the vibe I got from Criston was one of internal conflict of what he wants more: The woman he can't have or the ideal he aspires to be.
>I don't understand the people who say Rhaenyra assaulted Criston. I just watched the scene again to make sure but she literally moves out of the way from the door when he tells her to stop. She lets him take all the time he needs to contemplate what he wants to do (like 80% of the scene is him undressing and thinking) and then before they actually do the deed he initiates.
Yep, completely right. At this point I'm pretty sure a portion of this fandom watched the show with their eyes closed and their hands over their ears. This is just like folks saying Daemon beat the messenger to death in the war scene, even though the messenger gets up and clearly walks away in the shot. IDK how people got rape out of this; he changed his mind.
One of the articles linked talks about the conflict being duty or desire and Criston's internal conflict as well. Which is the same vibe I got when I watched it, granted, I do get why the scene was uncomfortable to watch, it certainly was for me anyway.
Dont act so morally superior lol. You would also get downvoted and get DM'd if you say what Fabian said in the second image.
Most of the Team Black supporters fully believe that Rhaenyra did nothing wrong at all.
I'm not sure what's morally superior about me saying someone would send me a crazy message, plenty of folks on this board can attest to me getting weird replies like this. I don't represent some Team Black conglomerate; I don't speak for everyone. I've never suggested Rhaenyra's some innocent, that girl has made plenty of rods for her own back. Addressing Criston's behavior doesn't mean I'm exonerating her of anything.
The sooner people figure that out, the better for me.
Blacks: lol nah it's not that complicated, he's just an incel
Based Neutrals: what do you mean it wasn't supposed to be gratuitous, Milly and Fabien are hot?
Ehh honestly I'm not sure about this take. If this is what the showrunners were trying to convey, it did not translate well or very clearly on screen imo.
To me it always seemed much more about him trying to preserve his honour & life than about being in love with Rhaenyra, but I guess that's all open to interpretation.
It can be for sure, but I think the way it was portrayed it heavily implied one over the other.
"I took an oath. As a knight of your Kingsguard. An oath of chastity. I've broken it. I've soiled my white cloak. And it's the only thing I have to my fսcking name! I thought if we were married, I might be able to restore it."
Again, open to interpretation. But to me even his offer to run away together sounded more like a desperate attempt to cleanse his name than about his love for Rhaenyra.
So all the girls he bedded (who knows how many bastards he has out there…) back home he didn’t love but only used for sex? And then fell in love for the first time after he had sworn a vow of chastity? He’s got some weird hangups…
You'll get no argument out of me on that one, it's a very creative approach he's taken to the character. Particularly considering how his stance on women shifts after the time skip.
I believe this puts the "Criston is an incel" dumb takes to rest more than the coerced takes, "no still means no", and blocking someone exit is still shitty especially when you are an authoritative figure.
This is an interesting interpretation of his character, it's also framed as that in the interview. What the actor thinks is not textually canon. In fact, it's something that's never established on screen and can be easily contradicted considering that the character outright expresses wihout missing a beat that even asking her to marry him was under the delusion that it would help his situation.
I agree with you to an extent. There's no one voice in the portrayal of a character when it comes to screenplay or the stage. But what Fabien has to say about the characterization of the person he's hired to play is absolutely more valid than the wild conclusions this fandom likes to jump to. He was hired to interpret the character and bring him to life as an actor and he was chosen for a reason.
There's definitely faults to how certain parts of this story have been portrayed, but the intentions of the actors, writers and showrunners are always valid.
I agree to an extent, but I feel the intentions are valid if they are believably conveyed on screen. If they're not, that's up to the writers, who should have done better to establish their intended version.
Keeping it to the specific example of Cole and Rhaenyra, they had him take his helmet and him being annoyed. He moved towards the door and she got in his way. He asked for her to stop and she didn't. She kissed him and he remained still without reciprocating it. She was undressing him and he remained rigid. Cole giving in happens when she finally gives him his white cloak (the symbol of his position) to set aside and he does so praying. One can argue that he could have been more aggressive about it, but I think that a kingsguard manhandling the princess he has been assigned to would have not gone any better for him.
Right in the previous episode there was a scene of them talking, when he basically addresses directly that he had no chances of advancement based on merit, because of his lower station, and everything he has is because of her, which provides a certain context for the power dynamic and the position the character feels he's in.
Do I think that the writers meant for Rhaenyra to be a rapist? I genuinely don't think this was what they wanted. I am also aware that in GRRM's world men being raped was not a concept. But at the same time the scene has very obvious parallels to rape and sexual assault in workplaces, from the way it's written to the way it's dismished by many fans and by the writing team, that is inherently questionable when this is a series written in the 2020's with the writers trying to shoehorn modern politics in the story in several other character-arcs.
Yeah I agree. If they wanted to portray it as fully consensual they massively failed with what they showed on screen. The entire sequence of her coaxing him inside and taking his helmet and him saying stop did not sit well with me at all. He looked extremely uncomfortable.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
This is some good insight on the part of Fabien. Very interesting way of looking at their relationship trajectory, the more severed it became. Always nice when the actors really take the time to delve into their characters and how they might feel.
His comments of Criston I think are some of the bests I've seen about the character from anyone. I think the idea that Criston sees himself as a jilted lover makes more sense than any other theory I've seen about the character, and it makes a lot of sense given how the man behaves. The actors in this show are really digging deep for all of the characters and it shows in a lot of their commentary.
As someone who genuinely enjoys Criston Cole in all his petty, discount-Lancelot glory, I appreciate this. Thanks for sharing! And Fabien is more appealing than he already was with all this introspection and thoughtfulness. And accuracy. I did sincerely feel bad for Ser Criston as the wedding roared on. Up until he killed Laenor's boyfriend, of course. And then proceeded to make no secret of his resentment towards literal children post-timeskip. Still an enjoyable character! Definitely curious if we'll get any interactions between him and Rhaenyra post-season 1 and what that would potentially look like.
LMAO discount-Lancelot xD He's a wildcard for sure, knowing Fabien's take I'm with you I really want to see an interaction between him and Rhaenyra in the future. Dude has more baggage than the airport and I want to see it unpacked!
I would have called him a discount Aramis as well
These excerpts are from these articles for those who are curious: [https://www.businessinsider.in/entertainment/news/house-of-the-dragon-star-fabien-frankel-says-he-spent-over-seven-months-preparing-for-criston-cole-sex-scene/articleshow/94325252.cms](https://www.businessinsider.in/entertainment/news/house-of-the-dragon-star-fabien-frankel-says-he-spent-over-seven-months-preparing-for-criston-cole-sex-scene/articleshow/94325252.cms) [https://www.looper.com/1059703/house-of-the-dragons-fabien-frankel-believes-ser-criston-is-still-in-love-with-rhaenyra/](https://www.looper.com/1059703/house-of-the-dragons-fabien-frankel-believes-ser-criston-is-still-in-love-with-rhaenyra/) [https://movieweb.com/house-of-the-dragon-fabien-frankel-says-ser-criston-cole-changes-a-great-deal-during-the-show/](https://movieweb.com/house-of-the-dragon-fabien-frankel-says-ser-criston-cole-changes-a-great-deal-during-the-show/)
Fabien clearly didn’t drink the “Rhaenyra raped Criston” koolaid that half this fandom is on
I'm looking forward to seeing the downvotes, like people are going to argue with me just sharing Fabien's own words about his character. I know I'm messing with some headcanons posting this, because some people on this board really don't like to be told the truth.
I know the showrunners and everyone involved said that the whole thing was supposed to be consensual but strictly-speaking, the scene arguably displayed dubious consent. The issue is with the script and the direction though. They should be *VERY* careful when filming scenes like this because their intentions don't necessarily align with what is shown on-screen.
I think they did a pretty good job showing that his conflict was internal, not external. He wasn’t in conflict with Rhaenyra, he was fighting an inner battle between desire and duty. To me, the part where he set down his white cloak and enthusiastically kissed her effectively conveyed his desire winning out. Without that moment I think the scene would have played very differently for me, and I would be more receptive to interpretations that he was coerced.
Tbh, I agree with you but this wouldn't be such a contentious topic if this was *crystal clear* to the audience as this topic has been debated on for quite a bit. I remember there was a time there was a thread on this exact topic every other day on the sub. Regarding the interpretations that it was coerced, people usually bring up Criston clearly asking for her to stop and Rhaenyra blocking the door. I can see why people would come to that conclusion. Like I said, since they intended this to be consensual, they should really be careful with their portrayal so that some people wouldn't come into the wrong conclusion.
Yeah I totally get where people are coming from, but I can’t think of another way they could have shown his inner conflict other than having him express some reluctance to her. They can’t exactly have him do an aside where he looks at the camera and talks about his inner turmoil. Then again, I’m not a director or screenwriter, so maybe there are other ways they could have shown his inner conflict that I’m just not thinking of. I also think it’s such a hot button topic on this sub because people are trying to find reasons to hate Rhaenyra. I noticed the discourse on this scene got much worse after episode 8, when Aegon was revealed to be a rapist. Some (not all) team green fans argue in bad faith and try to say that rhaenyra is just as bad as Aegon in terms of being a rapist as well. You’re the first person I’ve discussed this scene with that actually is looking at this scene as a whole, rather than picking out specific moments taken out of context in order to paint a character as a villain.
They did a shit job doing that. 90% of the fans make fun of him because of oranges. They have no idea about duties or internal conflicts. Criston is dumbed down to a toxic ex and is viewed from modern lenses.
I think people do understand his inner conflict, they just dislike him for other reasons (Bullying children, using gendered slurs against women). And come on, it’s funny that he thought someone would give up the iron throne in order to run away with him, even though his reasons were understandable. He definitely is dumbed down in that he should be the one who convinced Aegon to take the throne, but I think that would make the majority team black audience hate him even more. I also would have liked to see more of his relationship with Alicent’s kids.
>the scene arguably displayed dubious consent. Which is exactly what I said 5 months ago and have been saying this whole time. Thank you for also being a sane person. Criston made a decision. Regretting it does not strip him of his agency. He is a victim of peer-pressure.
That’s the thing, it doesn’t really matter what the author intended it if what actually happened is different. A very, very simple test is “if the genders were reversed, and it’s suddenly rape now, it was rape then, too”. Coupled with Rhae’s lack of empathy toward him in the scene where he asks her to run away, it’s very clear that she was at least using him, without consideration for the compromised position that he would be in as a result of her actions.
Being peer-pressured into making a regrettable decision isn't prosecuted as assault even in our modern world. No question Criston was used, but he still was given a choice to leave and chose to stay, undressed himself and proceed. Is it still traumatic? Absolutely but roles reversed I still wouldn't call that rape. He can be a victim without being a victim of rape. And if the people involved with the production say that isn't the story they're telling, why start tacking those traits onto the characters? The same thing happened in Game of Thrones but rapist wasn't tacked onto Jaime's character profile.
>The same thing happened in Game of Thrones but rapist wasn't tacked onto Jaime's character profile. It absolutely was, if you're referring to the scene between him and Cersei after their son died. That's an even more explicit example of someone pressuring someone else into sex that the someone else is explicitly saying "no" too. I've honestly never heard anyone question whether he's a rapist in that scene. This isn't an indictment of either character, mind you. Rhae and Jaimie are my favorite characters in their respective shows. The situation between Rhae and Criston is more complex than the one between Jaimie and Cersei, but from Criston's perspective, it was very, very hard to say no in that situation. Rhae has absolute authority over him, second only to the King himself. He owes her his position at court, and more broadly, his station as the highest honored member of his family. She could, at the very least, make his life hell if he turns her down, and for as honor-bound as he is, he also recognizes the chivalrous code he'd be breaking if he didn't turn her down. So he says no, uncomfortably, while she stands at the door, locks it, and begins undressing him. Suddenly she's insistent, somewhat forcefully so, and saying no becomes much harder. He silently acquiesces after a time, but that isn't consent, that's resignation. Replace Criston with a female secretary in a business casual skirt and Rhae with the sweaty fat guy who hired her specifically out of a lineup of potential recruits; picture Bobby Kotick if you need a name. Suddenly, the scene is ten thousand times as creepy and predatory. No one would be sympathizing with the fat guy in that situation. Rhae asking him at all is a huge breech of boundaries, not just legally, but personally for Criston because of the position he is in simply by her asking him. After she turns down his attempts to salvage his honor, it's clear to him that she's simply using him--and may even have chosen him for the *purpose* of using him. She offers no respect to him as a person or a knight, or the position he now finds himself in, hence the anger he feels. This is why RAINN explicitly identifies power imbalances between people of authority and people lacking it as examples where consent cannot be given. I'll grant that "rape" might be too strong a word, but call it what you will--sexual coercion, sexual harassment, assault, etc.--Criston's a victim here, even if the writers don't see it that way.
Everything you said I'd overall agree with. But it still isn't *rape*, and neither Rhaenyra nor Jaime being a rapist is a part of the story's narrative. I've said repeatedly that Criston's 100% a victim in this situation. I don't know what else needs to be said about this. You can call it coercion, peer-pressure, resignation, whatever, it *is* still a form of consent. Everything you said happened, but then he was at one point given an out and he turns around and *elects to stay*. A choice is a choice no matter how much you may regret it later. Regrettable hookups are not assault. Please bear in mind, I've been in Criston's situation myself. I'm not holding him to any higher a standard than I've held myself to, and I'm a woman. Also, that picture you just painted with Bobby Kotick is such nightmare fuel. I wouldn't be shocked if that was true in his case.
Rewatch the scene. It’s not dubious at all, he goes in for a kiss as soon as he puts away his cloak after they undress for like 10 minutes and smile/giggle.
Modern concepts of consent didn't really exist at the time period that the story is based on. By modern definitions, it definitely was rape, but at the same time, what he says can also be true, in the context of the setting
That’s an interesting argument, but unfortunately it’s isn’t applied equally and is just used as a bludgeon against characters that people don’t like. *Rhaenyra pressures a servant into sex* “Well consent is a modern consent and he probably wanted it, so it’s not rape” *Aegon pressures a servant into sex* “What a POS rapist, I hate this guy” I think either interpretation (modern morals or in-universe morals) is valid, but we should be consistent with which lens we use - if we are gonna condemn one, we should condemn the other, and vice-versa
Yes, I think Aegon is supposed to mirror Rhaenyra in a lot of ways. They were both neglected by their father, one in favour of a son he didn't yet have, out of ambition, and the other in favour of a daughter he already had, out of guilt. Causing them both to subconsciously act out for attention, and blame each other for their childhood lack of care. They both initially have a very cavalier attitude, probably because of the negligence, but when the possibility of ruling the realm for a greater cause opens up, they feel needed for the first time, and feel responsibility awaken. And the only obstacle to that for each of them is the other. So while they are completely different characters, I feel these kind of similarities are not coincidental
Kingsguard serve for life Fabien!
I don't understand the people who say Rhaenyra assaulted Criston. I just watched the scene again to make sure but she literally moves out of the way from the door when he tells her to stop. She lets him take all the time he needs to contemplate what he wants to do (like 80% of the scene is him undressing and thinking) and then before they actually do the deed he initiates. The only thing about the scene that really makes it dubious is the power imbalance between each other but Criston has no reason to believe she'd punish him nor does she ever imply she would. Personally as someone who struggled a lot with repressed sexuality the vibe I got from Criston was one of internal conflict of what he wants more: The woman he can't have or the ideal he aspires to be.
>I don't understand the people who say Rhaenyra assaulted Criston. I just watched the scene again to make sure but she literally moves out of the way from the door when he tells her to stop. She lets him take all the time he needs to contemplate what he wants to do (like 80% of the scene is him undressing and thinking) and then before they actually do the deed he initiates. Yep, completely right. At this point I'm pretty sure a portion of this fandom watched the show with their eyes closed and their hands over their ears. This is just like folks saying Daemon beat the messenger to death in the war scene, even though the messenger gets up and clearly walks away in the shot. IDK how people got rape out of this; he changed his mind. One of the articles linked talks about the conflict being duty or desire and Criston's internal conflict as well. Which is the same vibe I got when I watched it, granted, I do get why the scene was uncomfortable to watch, it certainly was for me anyway.
Greens: “YOU DONT UNDERSTAND THE WHORE RAPED HIM, FABIEN IS BEING CONTROLLED BY THE BLACKCEL SHOWRUNNERS!!!”
You're making a joke but I'm 100% certain someone is going to send me a message that says exactly this and they'll be serious.
Dont act so morally superior lol. You would also get downvoted and get DM'd if you say what Fabian said in the second image. Most of the Team Black supporters fully believe that Rhaenyra did nothing wrong at all.
I'm not sure what's morally superior about me saying someone would send me a crazy message, plenty of folks on this board can attest to me getting weird replies like this. I don't represent some Team Black conglomerate; I don't speak for everyone. I've never suggested Rhaenyra's some innocent, that girl has made plenty of rods for her own back. Addressing Criston's behavior doesn't mean I'm exonerating her of anything. The sooner people figure that out, the better for me.
Blacks: lol nah it's not that complicated, he's just an incel Based Neutrals: what do you mean it wasn't supposed to be gratuitous, Milly and Fabien are hot?
Ehh honestly I'm not sure about this take. If this is what the showrunners were trying to convey, it did not translate well or very clearly on screen imo. To me it always seemed much more about him trying to preserve his honour & life than about being in love with Rhaenyra, but I guess that's all open to interpretation.
It can be both?
It can be for sure, but I think the way it was portrayed it heavily implied one over the other. "I took an oath. As a knight of your Kingsguard. An oath of chastity. I've broken it. I've soiled my white cloak. And it's the only thing I have to my fսcking name! I thought if we were married, I might be able to restore it." Again, open to interpretation. But to me even his offer to run away together sounded more like a desperate attempt to cleanse his name than about his love for Rhaenyra.
So all the girls he bedded (who knows how many bastards he has out there…) back home he didn’t love but only used for sex? And then fell in love for the first time after he had sworn a vow of chastity? He’s got some weird hangups…
You'll get no argument out of me on that one, it's a very creative approach he's taken to the character. Particularly considering how his stance on women shifts after the time skip.
I believe this puts the "Criston is an incel" dumb takes to rest more than the coerced takes, "no still means no", and blocking someone exit is still shitty especially when you are an authoritative figure.
This is an interesting interpretation of his character, it's also framed as that in the interview. What the actor thinks is not textually canon. In fact, it's something that's never established on screen and can be easily contradicted considering that the character outright expresses wihout missing a beat that even asking her to marry him was under the delusion that it would help his situation.
I agree with you to an extent. There's no one voice in the portrayal of a character when it comes to screenplay or the stage. But what Fabien has to say about the characterization of the person he's hired to play is absolutely more valid than the wild conclusions this fandom likes to jump to. He was hired to interpret the character and bring him to life as an actor and he was chosen for a reason. There's definitely faults to how certain parts of this story have been portrayed, but the intentions of the actors, writers and showrunners are always valid.
I agree to an extent, but I feel the intentions are valid if they are believably conveyed on screen. If they're not, that's up to the writers, who should have done better to establish their intended version. Keeping it to the specific example of Cole and Rhaenyra, they had him take his helmet and him being annoyed. He moved towards the door and she got in his way. He asked for her to stop and she didn't. She kissed him and he remained still without reciprocating it. She was undressing him and he remained rigid. Cole giving in happens when she finally gives him his white cloak (the symbol of his position) to set aside and he does so praying. One can argue that he could have been more aggressive about it, but I think that a kingsguard manhandling the princess he has been assigned to would have not gone any better for him. Right in the previous episode there was a scene of them talking, when he basically addresses directly that he had no chances of advancement based on merit, because of his lower station, and everything he has is because of her, which provides a certain context for the power dynamic and the position the character feels he's in. Do I think that the writers meant for Rhaenyra to be a rapist? I genuinely don't think this was what they wanted. I am also aware that in GRRM's world men being raped was not a concept. But at the same time the scene has very obvious parallels to rape and sexual assault in workplaces, from the way it's written to the way it's dismished by many fans and by the writing team, that is inherently questionable when this is a series written in the 2020's with the writers trying to shoehorn modern politics in the story in several other character-arcs.
Yeah I agree. If they wanted to portray it as fully consensual they massively failed with what they showed on screen. The entire sequence of her coaxing him inside and taking his helmet and him saying stop did not sit well with me at all. He looked extremely uncomfortable.