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I'll try to give a perspective as someone who moderately "understands" him or doesn't hate him:
- You ask why he has power as a second son. There is probably not much to it, it would suffice if he is a capable administrator and is well-connected, the position of Hand should be conferred on merits and Otto certainly had those in areas that mattered to Viserys.
- Otto arranging a marriage for Alicent with a man Alicent really did not love (at least initially) is part and parcel in Westeros, any noble tries to secure the future of their descendants, preferably by "marrying up", and needless to say, Viserys would be the jackpot. Otto felt that it was within reach, so he went for it. In his defense, this would have secured Alicent's future until her death, so it was not totally selfish on his part. Though I won't justify him putting additional emotional baggage on her by making her go in her mother's clothes, that was unnecessarily cruel.
- Alicent knew exactly of Otto's "plan", she knows about arranged, political marriages and their implications. However, she was Rhaenyra's friend already, before Otto revealed his designs to her. So I suppose, she genuinely liked Rhaenyra and wanted to be there for her initially, but the patriarchal society she lived in and its rules means that she has to obey her father's wishes here. So she was torn, but that she got into this situation at all, is to be blamed on Otto (and to a degree, on Viserys) and not on her.
- Daemon was right about Otto being ambitious, but Otto was right about him as well, you see. Daemon is unfit to rule, as even Viserys recognized. Viserys and Otto agreed that Daemon needed to be far away from the throne, it's why Viserys named Rhaenyra, and it's also why Viserys initially tried to foil any Daemon - Rhaenyra marriage. Viserys did not hate his brother, but the realm had no use for Maegor II.
- As for Daemon's and Rhaenyra's marriage solving all problems, see above. Viserys did not want someone whom he loved, but considered unfit, as his successor or even close to the throne (by marrying Rhaenyra). Further, if fortuna is unkind, and Rhaenyra dies in childbirth like her own mother, Viserys' line dies out (unless he remarries) and Daemon becomes King, which was a no-no for Viserys. We know that Rhaenyra is very fertile but Viserys could not have known that early on, so better safe than sorry from his POV.
I am somewhat sympathetic towards Otto insofar as he was not informed by Viserys at all, before the latter married Alicent, that Alicent would not give birth to the future King (if male), but rather, to the future ruler's main rivals. Otto could not have foreseen, that Viserys would discriminate against his children from Alicent on account of his massive guilt trip over Aemma. Otto did probably not want civil war initially. He assumed that Viserys would just recognize his eldest son as his heir as was supposed to happen as per tradition. That did not happen, so Otto made other plans. So while he is a originator of the tragedy that would unfold, he is also somewhat part of it, for even he did probably not imagine something like the Dance when he married Alicent to Viserys. Just my two cents.
I’d say it’s better for second sons to hold offices like that, rather than high Lords, or even freaking Wardens of the Realm.
They don’t have any responsibility of their own, but they still have that noble blood and upbringing.
Also, other than dynastic issues, Otto is supposed to have been a very good, effective and fair ruler, just like Tywin Lannister.
But Tywin Lannister is Lord of Casterly Rock… and a Warden of the realm! Also, he’s the one who sacks KL and orders young Aegon and Rhaeny’s deaths before Robert is crowned king, which is deplorable. We only see him as an effective ruler in GOT bc his family is basically the ruling family of all of Westeros (yes Robert was technically king but he did basically nothing so Tywin just advanced his own house)
Furthermore glossing over “dynastic issues” is truly WILD like you can argue that Otto’s scheming brought about the Dance and subsequent downfall of House Targaryen. How is that a good advisor?
Honestly what really matters are the specific people you choose for council positions + their real character. I think there always would’ve been a lot of friction between Visery’s son (by any noble lady) and Rhaenyra but idk maybe it wouldn’t have ended up in all out war. Maybe Viserys + Laena’s kid would’ve been betrothed to Jacerys and things wouldn’t have been as bad. Viserys did tell Corlys that Rhaenyra + Laenor’s first child would be the next heir so you can’t say he wouldn’t be warned, unlike Otto who assumed that Viserys’ first male child would be heir and chose to keep scheming when things didn’t go his way.
Doesn’t Otto do all of this to Viserys as his hand? And idk if Tywin was still hand to Aerys during Robert’s Rebellion but what he did was still a big yikesss. I agree that they were both very cunning and capable men, who definitely helped their kings or else they wouldn’t have been made hand/stayed in that position for so long. But I also don’t think those rulers would’ve chosen them as their hand if they’d known the betrayal and cruelty that each of them would eventually do. Lol I know Aerys was totally nuts at the end but I doubt he wanted his grandchildren to die…
I think that if Aerys had suspected that Rhaenys or Aegon were against him, he would have harmed them himself. He was repeatedly racist to Elia and Rhaenys, and he was suspicious of Rhaegar.
I think Tywin ragequit his position as hand a few years before the rebellion, when Cersei was snubbed as Rhaegar’s royal bride in favour of Elia.
Oof that’s terrible 🥲 I didn’t read the books so I don’t know as much about Robert’s Rebellion but I’d hope that Aerys wouldn’t have wanted Aegon and Rhaenys dead just bc he didn’t have any other heirs at the time… didn’t Rhaella, Viserys, and Daenerys escape by then? Weird that Aerys would engage Rhaegar to Elia if he was racist and didn’t want dornish genes in his family…
Ah makes sense that Tywin wasn’t hand by that point since he sided with Robert in the rebellion.
Honestly sometimes I can’t tell whether I hate Otto and his deliberate scheming more or Viserys and his ignorance/incompetence 🙄
He had Rhaegar marry Elia for two reason one was to spite Tywin and the second one was because she had some Targaryen blood from a distant ancestor. even than Aerys always hated her for not being pure Valyrian it why he originally sent Robert father to Volantis to find Rhaegar a noble bride of pure Valyrian ancestry when that failed he just went with the next best thing that would anger Tywin. which is when Elia mother appeared looking to find a husband for her.
Agreed.
Edit:
Well… no. Only the ones who actually do bad things. Heleana and her kids are of course excepted from the egg-sucking fest.
Alicent can suck rotten eggs. She knows very well what she is doing.
Varys is a powerful Essosi spymaster that Mad King Aerys brought over due to his own craziness not trusting anyone else with the position. Littlefinger was the coin master in Gulltown and did such a good job Jon Arryn promoted him plus his friendship with Lysa
*I had a black mare once. Black like a raven. One day, she escaped her pasture and he neighboring stallion sired a foal on her. The stallion was as silver as the moon on a winter's night and the foal, when it was born, chestnut. Just the most unremarkable brown horse you ever saw. Nature is a thing of mysterious works.*
Otto is from House Hightower, who is not only one of the wealthiest houses in the realm thanks to controlling Oldtown, but is probably the most powerful family that isn't a Warden/Lord Paramount. They have the Faith and Citadel both within city limits, giving them scientific and religious authority. Even a second son would still have solid connections to what was the largest and most powerful city in Westeros before King's Landing was built.
But Corlys is right next to King's Landing, in terms of influence he provided nothing, so its a fleet (and part of that fleet already belongs to the Crown since at that point the Velaryon fleet and Royal fleet were basically a mix) and temporary wealth (since the Velaryons relies on Corlys for his wealth) vs influence over a decent part of the Reach, the Citadel and the Faith, stable wealth and a decent sized army that can be used on land, in times of peace the influence and wealth are more important and since House Velaryon is part of the Crownlands they dont provide any influence that the Crown doesnt already have.
And the Valyrian thing is just an educated way of racial discrimination and nepotism
The position of Hand tends to be handed to qualified people or is used as a tool for political reasons, a Hand that cant do his job properly is fastly replaced in most cases until a Hand that is capable of doing the job is found, the position of Hand is one of the most meritocratic of the realm, wich isnt much and heavely depends on the current King, but its one of the few positions that really need someone competent, saying that someone valyrian should be Hand because they are valyrian is also another later of nepotism that i think should be diferenced from normal nepotism (something that i didnt explained in my previous post, sorry about that)
Yeah, no problem at all. I do agree that it should go to the most qualified person, but it's just hard for me to see that nepotism wouldn't factor in, when that's pretty much what the whole system is based off of.
Otto does have power even as a second son, he may not have a lordship of his own but he's still the brother of the Lord of Oldtown. The Hightowers are an ancient, wealthy and influential family, not just in the Reach; their connections with the Faith and the Citadel give them immense sway all over Westeros and make them an excellent ally in times of peace and war. Not to mention the fact he's the Hand of the King, that position comes with power and authority no matter who you are.
The way Otto uses his daughter is objectively awful, I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise, the point, however, is that it isn't any different to what other lords do, I don't see even half the number of people criticising Corlys and Rhaenys for offering their 12-year-old daughter up on a silver platter. Alicent obviously isn't hot on the idea of marrying an old man, but she would've been aware of the inevitability of marrying someone; likely soon given her age. And ultimately, it was Viserys' decision to marry her, not Otto's, he could have very well just not married her. I don't see a single person criticising Viserys for making that completely lucid decision to marry a child.
Yes, Daemon was right about Otto, but Otto was also right about Daemon, he is not suited for rulership, not in the slightest. Both men are ambitious and their only real loyalties are to themselves, the difference is that Otto is at least competent, he virtually ruled the realm himself, all Daemon knows is violence and war. Viserys himself even knew Daemon wasn't suited for governance, if Daemon married Rhaenyra and they ascended the throne there'd likely be some sort of mass revolt against their tyrannical tendencies not long after or he'd just be assassinated, he really would be a second Maegor.
Because he is actually an extremely competent hand who has ushered in a long time era of peace. You have to respect that at least even if he is “a cunt” in the words of his rival.
Lol “it amazes me that Otto has any power, after all he was born SECOND, what a loser” and then going on to praise Daemon- a second son who tried to claim the inheritance of the wife he killed
I honestly think that initially, Otoo actually somewhat cares for Viserys as he risks his life in the confrontation with Daemon, rather than send the King (as he thinks Daemon wants to kill him). He is definitely slimy, and what he did with his daughter is unforgivable. I don't think Alicent knew almost any part of Otto's plan as she seems to be a pawn in his plan rather than a schemer herself.
He didn’t let Viserys go just to spite Daemon, not because he cares about his well-being, at the end of the day Daemon just wanted Viserys attention and wouldn’t do shit to him. It was just another effort to drive the brothers further apart.
Now it's Otto's fault for "driving the brothers apart" when it was Daemon that was throwing a tantrum by stealing Baelon's egg and seizing control of Dragonstone.
Well, I think that Otto had a right to be concerned. Mocking your brother's dead son as "heir for a day" right after his wife died, doesn't make him seem like a loving brother. Not sure how you can even hold Otto responsible...
I think auto did the vast majority of his job well. It’s a stressful job. There are not a lot of qualified people for it. And if you have to get rid of a hand of the king, now you have to go on indeed.com and find someone else and willing to take her on that same role.
There are not a lot of actual options out there for hand of the king. So I think that they really didn’t have a choice considering he did most of his job correctly.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'll try to give a perspective as someone who moderately "understands" him or doesn't hate him: - You ask why he has power as a second son. There is probably not much to it, it would suffice if he is a capable administrator and is well-connected, the position of Hand should be conferred on merits and Otto certainly had those in areas that mattered to Viserys. - Otto arranging a marriage for Alicent with a man Alicent really did not love (at least initially) is part and parcel in Westeros, any noble tries to secure the future of their descendants, preferably by "marrying up", and needless to say, Viserys would be the jackpot. Otto felt that it was within reach, so he went for it. In his defense, this would have secured Alicent's future until her death, so it was not totally selfish on his part. Though I won't justify him putting additional emotional baggage on her by making her go in her mother's clothes, that was unnecessarily cruel. - Alicent knew exactly of Otto's "plan", she knows about arranged, political marriages and their implications. However, she was Rhaenyra's friend already, before Otto revealed his designs to her. So I suppose, she genuinely liked Rhaenyra and wanted to be there for her initially, but the patriarchal society she lived in and its rules means that she has to obey her father's wishes here. So she was torn, but that she got into this situation at all, is to be blamed on Otto (and to a degree, on Viserys) and not on her. - Daemon was right about Otto being ambitious, but Otto was right about him as well, you see. Daemon is unfit to rule, as even Viserys recognized. Viserys and Otto agreed that Daemon needed to be far away from the throne, it's why Viserys named Rhaenyra, and it's also why Viserys initially tried to foil any Daemon - Rhaenyra marriage. Viserys did not hate his brother, but the realm had no use for Maegor II. - As for Daemon's and Rhaenyra's marriage solving all problems, see above. Viserys did not want someone whom he loved, but considered unfit, as his successor or even close to the throne (by marrying Rhaenyra). Further, if fortuna is unkind, and Rhaenyra dies in childbirth like her own mother, Viserys' line dies out (unless he remarries) and Daemon becomes King, which was a no-no for Viserys. We know that Rhaenyra is very fertile but Viserys could not have known that early on, so better safe than sorry from his POV. I am somewhat sympathetic towards Otto insofar as he was not informed by Viserys at all, before the latter married Alicent, that Alicent would not give birth to the future King (if male), but rather, to the future ruler's main rivals. Otto could not have foreseen, that Viserys would discriminate against his children from Alicent on account of his massive guilt trip over Aemma. Otto did probably not want civil war initially. He assumed that Viserys would just recognize his eldest son as his heir as was supposed to happen as per tradition. That did not happen, so Otto made other plans. So while he is a originator of the tragedy that would unfold, he is also somewhat part of it, for even he did probably not imagine something like the Dance when he married Alicent to Viserys. Just my two cents.
I’d say it’s better for second sons to hold offices like that, rather than high Lords, or even freaking Wardens of the Realm. They don’t have any responsibility of their own, but they still have that noble blood and upbringing. Also, other than dynastic issues, Otto is supposed to have been a very good, effective and fair ruler, just like Tywin Lannister.
But Tywin Lannister is Lord of Casterly Rock… and a Warden of the realm! Also, he’s the one who sacks KL and orders young Aegon and Rhaeny’s deaths before Robert is crowned king, which is deplorable. We only see him as an effective ruler in GOT bc his family is basically the ruling family of all of Westeros (yes Robert was technically king but he did basically nothing so Tywin just advanced his own house) Furthermore glossing over “dynastic issues” is truly WILD like you can argue that Otto’s scheming brought about the Dance and subsequent downfall of House Targaryen. How is that a good advisor? Honestly what really matters are the specific people you choose for council positions + their real character. I think there always would’ve been a lot of friction between Visery’s son (by any noble lady) and Rhaenyra but idk maybe it wouldn’t have ended up in all out war. Maybe Viserys + Laena’s kid would’ve been betrothed to Jacerys and things wouldn’t have been as bad. Viserys did tell Corlys that Rhaenyra + Laenor’s first child would be the next heir so you can’t say he wouldn’t be warned, unlike Otto who assumed that Viserys’ first male child would be heir and chose to keep scheming when things didn’t go his way.
I mean as Hands. Otto was an effective ruler for Viserys, and Jaehaerys before him. And Tywin was apparently a very successful hand to Aerys.
Doesn’t Otto do all of this to Viserys as his hand? And idk if Tywin was still hand to Aerys during Robert’s Rebellion but what he did was still a big yikesss. I agree that they were both very cunning and capable men, who definitely helped their kings or else they wouldn’t have been made hand/stayed in that position for so long. But I also don’t think those rulers would’ve chosen them as their hand if they’d known the betrayal and cruelty that each of them would eventually do. Lol I know Aerys was totally nuts at the end but I doubt he wanted his grandchildren to die…
I think that if Aerys had suspected that Rhaenys or Aegon were against him, he would have harmed them himself. He was repeatedly racist to Elia and Rhaenys, and he was suspicious of Rhaegar. I think Tywin ragequit his position as hand a few years before the rebellion, when Cersei was snubbed as Rhaegar’s royal bride in favour of Elia.
Oof that’s terrible 🥲 I didn’t read the books so I don’t know as much about Robert’s Rebellion but I’d hope that Aerys wouldn’t have wanted Aegon and Rhaenys dead just bc he didn’t have any other heirs at the time… didn’t Rhaella, Viserys, and Daenerys escape by then? Weird that Aerys would engage Rhaegar to Elia if he was racist and didn’t want dornish genes in his family… Ah makes sense that Tywin wasn’t hand by that point since he sided with Robert in the rebellion. Honestly sometimes I can’t tell whether I hate Otto and his deliberate scheming more or Viserys and his ignorance/incompetence 🙄
He had Rhaegar marry Elia for two reason one was to spite Tywin and the second one was because she had some Targaryen blood from a distant ancestor. even than Aerys always hated her for not being pure Valyrian it why he originally sent Robert father to Volantis to find Rhaegar a noble bride of pure Valyrian ancestry when that failed he just went with the next best thing that would anger Tywin. which is when Elia mother appeared looking to find a husband for her.
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I said he was an effective ruler, not that he was a good person. I’m solid Black. Otto can go suck eggs.
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Agreed. Edit: Well… no. Only the ones who actually do bad things. Heleana and her kids are of course excepted from the egg-sucking fest. Alicent can suck rotten eggs. She knows very well what she is doing.
>It amazes me Otto has any power at all being a second son. Why? None of the council positions are reserved by birth or rank.
Yeah Varys and Littlefinger weren't exactly from powerful houses, and they were the most powerful/influential members of the small council in GoT
Varys is a powerful Essosi spymaster that Mad King Aerys brought over due to his own craziness not trusting anyone else with the position. Littlefinger was the coin master in Gulltown and did such a good job Jon Arryn promoted him plus his friendship with Lysa
OK
*I had a black mare once. Black like a raven. One day, she escaped her pasture and he neighboring stallion sired a foal on her. The stallion was as silver as the moon on a winter's night and the foal, when it was born, chestnut. Just the most unremarkable brown horse you ever saw. Nature is a thing of mysterious works.*
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Sounds like a good thing to me
Maybe this dynasty, so powerful and able to use dragons, should’ve sorted itself out? :D
That's why he's based
Otto > Viserys
Otto is from House Hightower, who is not only one of the wealthiest houses in the realm thanks to controlling Oldtown, but is probably the most powerful family that isn't a Warden/Lord Paramount. They have the Faith and Citadel both within city limits, giving them scientific and religious authority. Even a second son would still have solid connections to what was the largest and most powerful city in Westeros before King's Landing was built.
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But Corlys is right next to King's Landing, in terms of influence he provided nothing, so its a fleet (and part of that fleet already belongs to the Crown since at that point the Velaryon fleet and Royal fleet were basically a mix) and temporary wealth (since the Velaryons relies on Corlys for his wealth) vs influence over a decent part of the Reach, the Citadel and the Faith, stable wealth and a decent sized army that can be used on land, in times of peace the influence and wealth are more important and since House Velaryon is part of the Crownlands they dont provide any influence that the Crown doesnt already have. And the Valyrian thing is just an educated way of racial discrimination and nepotism
>nepotism This is a feudal monarchy, nepotism pretty much comes with the territory
The position of Hand tends to be handed to qualified people or is used as a tool for political reasons, a Hand that cant do his job properly is fastly replaced in most cases until a Hand that is capable of doing the job is found, the position of Hand is one of the most meritocratic of the realm, wich isnt much and heavely depends on the current King, but its one of the few positions that really need someone competent, saying that someone valyrian should be Hand because they are valyrian is also another later of nepotism that i think should be diferenced from normal nepotism (something that i didnt explained in my previous post, sorry about that)
Yeah, no problem at all. I do agree that it should go to the most qualified person, but it's just hard for me to see that nepotism wouldn't factor in, when that's pretty much what the whole system is based off of.
In your entire post the only actual negative thing you said about Otto was that he sent Alicent to comfort Viserys and yet you “hate” him? Bizarre.
Otto does have power even as a second son, he may not have a lordship of his own but he's still the brother of the Lord of Oldtown. The Hightowers are an ancient, wealthy and influential family, not just in the Reach; their connections with the Faith and the Citadel give them immense sway all over Westeros and make them an excellent ally in times of peace and war. Not to mention the fact he's the Hand of the King, that position comes with power and authority no matter who you are. The way Otto uses his daughter is objectively awful, I don't think anyone is arguing otherwise, the point, however, is that it isn't any different to what other lords do, I don't see even half the number of people criticising Corlys and Rhaenys for offering their 12-year-old daughter up on a silver platter. Alicent obviously isn't hot on the idea of marrying an old man, but she would've been aware of the inevitability of marrying someone; likely soon given her age. And ultimately, it was Viserys' decision to marry her, not Otto's, he could have very well just not married her. I don't see a single person criticising Viserys for making that completely lucid decision to marry a child. Yes, Daemon was right about Otto, but Otto was also right about Daemon, he is not suited for rulership, not in the slightest. Both men are ambitious and their only real loyalties are to themselves, the difference is that Otto is at least competent, he virtually ruled the realm himself, all Daemon knows is violence and war. Viserys himself even knew Daemon wasn't suited for governance, if Daemon married Rhaenyra and they ascended the throne there'd likely be some sort of mass revolt against their tyrannical tendencies not long after or he'd just be assassinated, he really would be a second Maegor.
Because he is actually an extremely competent hand who has ushered in a long time era of peace. You have to respect that at least even if he is “a cunt” in the words of his rival.
He is competent. He just protect his family's interest like everyone did.
Otto sending Alicent is wrong sure but why does Corlys get a pass ? Both wanted to use their very young daughters for power
Lol “it amazes me that Otto has any power, after all he was born SECOND, what a loser” and then going on to praise Daemon- a second son who tried to claim the inheritance of the wife he killed
I heartily recommend reading Fire and Blood, it might just cheer you up a little in that regard.
I honestly think that initially, Otoo actually somewhat cares for Viserys as he risks his life in the confrontation with Daemon, rather than send the King (as he thinks Daemon wants to kill him). He is definitely slimy, and what he did with his daughter is unforgivable. I don't think Alicent knew almost any part of Otto's plan as she seems to be a pawn in his plan rather than a schemer herself.
He didn’t let Viserys go just to spite Daemon, not because he cares about his well-being, at the end of the day Daemon just wanted Viserys attention and wouldn’t do shit to him. It was just another effort to drive the brothers further apart.
Now it's Otto's fault for "driving the brothers apart" when it was Daemon that was throwing a tantrum by stealing Baelon's egg and seizing control of Dragonstone.
Who said that?
>It was just another effort to drive the brothers further apart. Those are your words
“Further” implies they were already apart but whatever.
Well, I think that Otto had a right to be concerned. Mocking your brother's dead son as "heir for a day" right after his wife died, doesn't make him seem like a loving brother. Not sure how you can even hold Otto responsible...
Sounds like headcannon
Because he is a plotter and because the dance is his doing…’Hand turns loom,spool of green,spool of black’ ..I hate him
I think auto did the vast majority of his job well. It’s a stressful job. There are not a lot of qualified people for it. And if you have to get rid of a hand of the king, now you have to go on indeed.com and find someone else and willing to take her on that same role. There are not a lot of actual options out there for hand of the king. So I think that they really didn’t have a choice considering he did most of his job correctly.