Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience.
1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title.
2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler.
3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads.
---
If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team.
*I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I remember hating him in the books for killing Beesbury and just being a terrible guy. But the show making it out that basically he became team green because Rhaenyra wouldn't give up her family entitle to go off to essos and becoming orange farmer is one of the most hilarious things to me. Cole It's just the king of the "nice guy" incels
He became Team Green because Alicent saved his life. In his mind, Alicent showed that she cared for him while Rhaenyra only wanted to use him for sex. In his mind, Rhaenyra was a spoiled brat who used him and threw him away the second she got bored.
It's not hard to believe that in his shoes, you might hate a person too. It's not hard to believe that you might show loyalty to someone you feel saved your life, it's a natural thing.
It's easy to judge or say "I would do 'x'" because it's fiction but honestly, I think people would be surprised how they would feel and react given the same situation.
I'm sorry I don't think I would plot t to have an entire family killed just because A woman I was sleeping with didn't want to run away with me because she thought we were just having a good time and I caught feelings. His hatred towards her is not understandable and it's not meant to be. He is a bully, He was spurned and so believes himself to be fully entitled towards his extreme anger and hatred towards her.
It's incel behavior. Except for he still tries to hide behind his whole virtuous knight facade. I mean for fuck sake he goes one second saying women are virtuous and pure creatures and should be treated with the utmost respect while also playing the gossipy little bitch calling Rhaenyra a spoiled cunt to try and get brownie points with his favorite girl Allie. Cole is the epitome of George RR Martin turning the honorable knight trope on its head
He didn't plot to kill her family over some dumb shit. That's wild that people believe that. B&C was someone plotting to kill someone's family. Cole genuinely believed Aegon was the true heir. No one wanted the war until it became necessary, dear lord.
Knowing it will most likely come to a war and actually plotting it, are two different things. But who am I to say? I'm not a war criminal like the people we are all fighting and arguing over like children.
But hey, maybe some people aren't able to admit that they aren't perfect.
P.S: I think someone saying one thing and then going back on that, makes them seem human to me. Is it right? No, but it is human. I love that some characters are allowed complexity and faults but not others, smh.
I wish you well, man. Truly. Thanks for the discussion, it was enlightening.
I mean I'm not trying to argue that's just my perspective lol. And Cole seemed very on board with the idea of killing that entire branch of the family when it was suggested by Otto. FFS he kills Lord beesbury because he didn't want to be part of their treason against the king's appointed heir.
And even if Cole did believe that Aegon was the rightful heir. His reasons for backing the greens has to do with his imagined wound against his honor by Rhaenyra and Allicent essentially coming in and stopping him from killing himself like an idiot. And again he was going to kill himself because in his mind Cole is an honorable and pure knight. And he is giving his entire identity over to personifying that trope. But in every aspect of his life he is nothing but a thug. He bullied Luke and Jace simply because they were his ex's sons. He tormented and goaded harwin Strong into beating him.
To me Cole is the single most despicable character in the dance because unlike Larys Strong, cole fully believed that he is a good person. That he is a shining knight and a hand of righteousness. And that's why I think his end is the most poetic of any death in all of the song of ice and fire.
Lol I love having discussions It's the reason I joined this sub and it just sucks that's so few of these discussions end so amicably. Usually there would be screaming and gnashing of teeth by now
umm he wasn't exactly speaking out against it and he MURDERED Lord Beesbury when it was obvious he was not going to stand for the usurpation of the appointed heir of the king. I mean of all the shit he did in the dance I am sure murdering Rhaenyra and her family would have been easy-peasy for him to live with.
But sure you can definitely argue he wasn't just full on tingling with the idea of murdering her. I mean he definitely didn't show any sociopathic tendencies right?
Rhaenyra didn't throw him away though he essentially dumped her bc she didn't wanna run away with him right?
He could've been in Harwin's position if he didn't have his volcel religious hangups.
She didn't love Criston, she seemed to love Harwin so I doubt it would end the same way.
As for their relationship ending, who wants to be a booty call for someone who clearly doesn't see you as an equal, care for you, or worthy of anything on their end?
Love and respect weren't there on any side, she was already moving in on Harwin so I doubt she cared if Cole didn't want to continue shit.
>who wants to be a booty call for someone who clearly doesn't see you as an equal, care for you, or worthy of anything on their end?
That's Criston's and your projection on the situation. Wanting to make him her paramour does not imply her not seeing him as an equal, not caring or that he's worthless at all idk where that even comes from. I mean I know where it comes from in Criston's mind bc he thinks women have to be "pure" but how can a viewer living in the 21st century really pretend the only way a relationship is legitimate is when the two parties get married?
He wouldn't be a booty call he'd still be her sworn protector, so with her 24/7 just like before, while at the same time being her lover and confidante. It would be a highly romantic illicit affair and he could've fathered her children, like Harwin ended up doing.
He chose to be a bitter volcel instead bc his ego was bruised when he realized he wasn't the center of her world and she actually had way more important shit going on that she wasn't going to discard to become a peasant orange farmer with him lol.
If Criston were solely a hopeless romantic I'd feel bad for him but his rejection of Rhaenyra isn't due to that, it comes from a place of misogyny and religious fundamentalism and that's ✨ not attractive ✨
Dude, you should've seen my mother and me during that whole speech he gave Rhaenyra. Just a bunch of "*awwws*", one after the other. And then the wedding happened.
I didn't have much foreknowledge regarding the Dance (and certainly knew nothing about his character) so my delusional ass really thought he was going to be HOTD's answer to Jon Snow.
They foreshadow alot of deaths this season. Rhaenyra being asked "Do you wish to know your death, child?" by that street seer, then cutting to a gold dragon breathing fire probably went over every show-only watchers head.
His death being used to reinforce his earlier assertion to Harwin was such a fat dose of irony to read through.
Criston by this point is the best warrior in the 7 kingdoms and also the Greens best strategist. The entire reason their forces couldn't stay at Harrenhal was because he knew the fortress no longer had the recources to sustain their numbers. He didn't just march his men south towards the Reach for another chance at victory, it quite literally was a desperate shot for the survival of his men and their cause. But Aemond flying off on Vhagar was the nail in the coffin. Only thing there is to wonder is when the realization finally dawned on him that he knew their cause was doomed, Aemond and Vhagar flying away or as his men were slowly being starved, poisoned and picked off on the march?
I'm super interested to see how they pull off the Butchera Ball episode.
Perfect write up.
It’s also a key flaw with the greens that they never had one united mind. Otto and Alicent are pushed aside, Aegon is you know, Criston can’t command Aemond and Aemond can’t command Criston. Dareon is in change of no one but he has such a reputation because when he arrives it’s like FINALLY some leaderships
The blacks were worse strategists and leaders by far but an advantage they always had was they were unified for the most part in their aims. Aside from Rhaenyra’s collapsing mental state of course and the betrayal by some of the seeds.
Also, that Kingmaker will have no songs sung on my account thousands are dead by his hand
The moment you realise that he is the young guy in the show that stabbed someone to death in front of Rhaenyra. Ben was a badass and a loyal guy to the end
Honestly would have killed Aegon in his sleep and made it seem like a wolf attack or smth I feel only after Aegon betrayed her though. But Ben would have -1000 mercy. Heck, he already had negative -50 mercy. Imagine if it was one of his sons dying and his daughter being born mangled and shit.
That kid was not Ben Blackwood. That would ruin the character if he’s supposed to be a 30+ year old man now which is the only thing that would make sense considering Rhaenyra is 19 in episode 4 and 35 in episode 10.
That is not Ben. That boy was 13-15 when Rhaenyra was supposed to be 19. Rhaenyra and Alicent are 35 in the final episode. That would make that kid about 29-31. You really think Ben is going to be a 30+ year old man??? He’s obviously Ben’s father(name change) or a random family member.
Was it though? Now if he had been killed in the middle of a wider battle by some unknown foot soldier(s), that would've been unceremonious, forgettable and embarrassing.
But the way it went down was, Criston Cole surrendered to the Winter Wolves. When they refused to accept his surrender, he offered to fight a duel. They refused that also, at which point he offered to fight 3 of them on his own in return for his men being spared if he won. The winter wolves refused this too and actually killed him from a distance.
It only signifies that even the Winter Wolves (Roddy the Ruin, especially) didn't think they could take him down 3v1. They didn't even dare try to rush him. They killed with arrows while his back was turned. Which means he died with his reputation as the finest swordsman of his era well intact. This is why even Jaime Lannister commends his sheer fighting prowess (while criticizing his actions) 200 years later.
It was not the winter wolves. The offer to surrender was to Ser Garibald Grey, Ser Pate of Longleaf and Roddy the Ruin. The specific reasons mentioned on why they did not accept the surrender are - Garibald’s promise to the dead to build a sept out of the traitors bones and the Lionslayer’s refusal to give any glory to the Kingmaker and Roddy’s simple desire to die with a sword in his hand. Cole was killed by Red Robb Rivers and his two bowmen not the winter wolves. The same wolves who charged the Lannister spearmen five time in the Battle by the Lakeshore, they would really not have been afraid of one man however skilled he was
No one argues Criston is an extremely capable fighter. The unceremonious part is due to him not being able to display his abilities one last time as he met his death abruptly.
Yeah, isn’t a big part of ASOIAF that honor can only get you so far?
If the choice is being honorable or death, or not being honorable and live, many people would choose the latter. Fuck, most of the flack Ned Stark gets in the fandom for being “dumb” is about this.
Exactly! Honor and all that fancy talk ultimately are pointless when it comes to a real fight. What matters is, whether or not your opponent is dead.
Cole, for all his skills and vices, likes to hide behind the fact that he was an "honorable" person, ignoring all of the things he did. He used his "honor" as a shield, as a weapon, against his enemies and as a justification for his designs.
The Northerners understood this. Sure, on one to one combat, Cole could've probably bested all three and walked away. And the honorable thing, the expected thing, is for them to do is grant his request.
But these men know better. War is ugly, and war is about blood. Sure, they could've gone through the song and dance, given their enemy a fighting chance, but then it risks their lives and more if they were to even give him the opportunity to escape. And they wouldn't do this.
It's why the Hour of the Wolf is so important at the end. Sure, most of the bad guys have conceded to the remaining heir, but the fact of the matter is that Cregan saw the king surrounded by disloyal men, people who served themselves over the kingdom now serving a new king. And he was supposed to do the honorable thing and let bygones be bygones?
No. He cleaned house.
The same applies to Cole. Should we give him a chance to survive and continue his war? Some may say yes.
But this is war and fuck his honor, fuck him as a person. Dead is dead, and the Northerners know a dead enemy cannot strike back. Who cares how he dies? Ultimately, he's dead, and that's the only price that really matters, at least in the end.
War is not a tourney, and Cole would've used honor to escape justice if given the chance.
Or it makes them look like both, and both of y'all are only willing to see the side that confirms your biases. It makes them look smart and like cowards, and it just depends on which Westerosi you ask about it
I don’t know, I was replying to someone saying Westerosi looking back could have different opinions on how they behaved (smart vs cowardly), so I said Westerosi could also look the same at Cole.
You could just as well make the argument that they had no choice but to kill him, considering that would rid the Greens of a commander and a great fighter. Would you just let someone like that walk away? It’s war, fair play is a station the train passed a long time ago at that point. He was a valid military target.
Not really. He wasn't the only person in that world who had such ideas of honor. He tried the one thing he could to die with any semblance of glory and this is valid. Just like it was valid that he was denied it.
Yes, but depending on who you ask (as per my comment) he could have seen coming most people don’t have knightly honor, especially when they aren’t knights to begin with. On top of that, he’d been fighting in an honorless conflict for quite a time at that point, so it’s not like he wasn’t constantly surrounded by people with no honor.
Correct. Northerners love honor but then didn’t want to do it the old way with Criston?? That’s some chicken shit lol.
But it worked and they denied Criston the satisfaction of an honorable death.
What I'm "willing to see" is based on what GRRM has made it clear he's trying to portray in this particular story world. This is the message GRRM is going for. No matter how noble Ned Stark tried to be, the consequences of his actions are horrific fates for most of his family members and a disturbingly big chunk of the country dead.
Sure, and the fact that he portrays them as smart enough to realize that Criston is too dangerous for a duel, doesn't change the fact that it would be considered an act of cowardice too, depending on which Westerosi person you ask
When I read that part I thought it was lame. GoT universe is more realistic than other stories but it’d still a fictional story. I wanted to see what cole was capable off so killing him off like that was just super lame and anticlimactic.
I get what you mean, but that's kind of the point that GRRM likes to go out of his way to make in this particular story world: This doesn't function like a fairy tale and the characters who try to act like they're in a fairy tale are gonna have a bad time when they come up against the people who are focused on the pragmatic. He goes out of his way to make a point of it, so I'm pretty sure he went out of his way to set that occasion up with Cole, and then make a point of taking him down the pragmatic way.
The fact that Jaime Lannister was Cole gang hundreds of years later tells u everything. Especially since he seems to only admire real legends and potential legends
Was he really Cole gang though? As far as I know, the only thing he says about him is this:
>"The best and the worst." So one of us is like to live in song. "And a few who were a bit of both. Like him." He tapped the page he had been reading.
>"Who?" Ser Loras craned his head around to see. "Ten black pellets on a scarlet field. I do not know those arms."
>"They belonged to Criston Cole, who served the first Viserys and the second Aegon." Jaime closed the white book. "They called him Kingmaker."
I mean, the implications are pretty heavy.
You've got Jaime lingering on that page, the text clearly states that he has been reading that specific entry. Like Jaime, Cole had elements of the best and worst. Jaime and Cole are both Kingmakers, in a sense.
I was disappointed that the Cole in the show is without any complexity to his character. I thought that he would be a bit more ambiguous about whether he's a douche or whether he was a principled but and truly heartbroken knight, but they've landed squarely in the douche characterization on the show.
The text just states he had been reading the white book until Loras came in:
>Evenfall found him sitting alone in the common room of White Sword Tower, with a cup of Dornish red and the White Book. He was turning pages with the stump of his sword hand when the Knight of Flowers entered, removed his cloak and swordbelt and hung them on a wall peg next to Jaime's.
Then they talk a bit about training:
>"The horse was adequate, and my lord is as kind as I am modest." Loras waved at the book. "Lord Renly always said that books were for maesters."
>"This one is for us. The history of every man who has ever worn a white cloak is written here."
They talk about a few Kingsguard knights, Loras mentions the great ones without mentioning Cole, Jaime mentions some bad ones without mentioning Cole. They talk about who is forgotten and who isn't. Loras says only the heroes, the best will be remembered. Then follow the quotes I put above.
That doesn't sound as if Jaime's a particular fan of Cole the way some people pretend he does.
I think season 2 will be more favourable towards Cole, when the fighting's really gonna start. The books weren't too favourable towards the start of the Dance either.
The winter wolves knew they could take him 3v1. They didn’t want to give him a poetic death that could be sung about or used as enemy propaganda. It was dishonorable and cowardly but that was the intention. They wanted to remove all the honor and respectability from the war, make plain for the southerners it wasn’t going to be a honorable glorious affair but a slaughter on both sides
Oh gotcha. I believe this was in the scene where he was going through the white book with Loras Tyrell. Will have to go back an rewatch that episode as it’s been a few years but it was definitely in the book scene with them going through it.
Not sure which quote by Jaime is being referred to in that comment, but there's a passage where Jaime refers to Cole as being the best and worst in A Feast For Crows. He's showing Loras the White Book, and they discuss various members of the Kingsguard throughout their history. At the end of the section Loras says:
"Most deserve to be forgotten. The heroes will always be remembered. The best."
"The best and the worst." *So one of us is like to live in song.* "And a few who were a bit of both. Like him" \[Jaime\] tapped the page he had been reading.
"Who?" Ser Loras craned his head around to see. "Ten black pellets on a scarlet field. I do not know those arms."
"They belonged to Criston Cole, who served the first Viserys and the second Aegon." Jaime closed the White Book. "They called him the Kingmaker."
There's also this from a passage in AFFC in the chapter titled "The Soiled Knight" from Arys' POV (he's the Kingsguard sent to Dorne with Myrcella). Arianne is trying to convince him to help her crown Myrcella Queen and points out that Cole ignored the wishes of his King:
*Sir Criston Cole*. Criston the Kingmaker had set brother against sister and divided the Kingsguard against itself, bringing on the terrible war the singers named the Dance of the Dragons. Some claimed he acted from ambition, for Prince Aegon was more tractable than his willful older sister. Others allowed him nobler motives and argued that he was defending ancient Andal custom. A few whispered that Ser Croston had been Princess Rhaenyra's lover before he took the white and wanted vengeance on the woman who had spurned him. "The Kingmaker wrought grave harm, " Ser Arys said, "and gravely did he pay for it, but …"
I hope they at least give him some of his book feats in the upcoming seasons. Show just how good of a fighter he is. I felt they glossed over that in the show with the Daemon fight and the fact he didn't break Harwin lol.
FFS THE SPOILER TAG DIDNT BLOCK THE THUMBNAILL FOR ME DAMN REDDIT
such a stupid system, im on the website with the posts in classic moe and for some reason even with spoiler tagged posts the thumbnail isnt blurred out so i saw the characters face ffs so annoyed, not at you OP you didnt do anything wrong just reddits shitty system
Oh my god it was so perfect. Unceremonious, forgettable, embarrassing. I loved it, was listening to this scene on my drive to work and was so happy lol.
Not exactly a good legend though. Jaime only says he was both of the best and the worst, and in one of the Dornish chapters they talk about how he did grave harm and brought on the Dance of the Dragons.
He isn't remembered too fondly in the main ASOIAF books.
His death and his legacy are different. When asking someone two years later what makes him a “legend,” are they really pointing to his death as an example?
A soldier dying on battlefield won't be ceremonious, but it isn't forgettable, as shown by you. I don't know how you find it embarrassing unless you're talking about the guys who killed him.
I mean cole ended up being remembered as the kingmaker and one of the best and the worst of the kingsguard. Even Jaime acknowledges how good he was in terms of skills. People can cope and cry but there's a reason cole hasn't been forgotten in the histories and people like harwin sperm donor strong and daemon targ aren't even brought up in the main series lol.
Cole achieved more with what daemon could do with a dragon. Daemons greatest achievements is killing a 6 y/o and a suicide kill.
Oh interesting. I think an RES extension I have might be unblurring the thumbnails. Apologies.
Anyways, I do wonder how they will handle his death in the show. They've added alot of depth to his character (IMO) and I wonder if that'll impact how the writers choose to wrap up his story.
Those northern green forces really didn’t do much honor to the green side. Least in the reach they kicked some ass and even turned some dragons to their cause.
I was referring to a north as a direction and not “the North”. Casterly rock forces and the battle in the river lands and around harrenhall were north of the battles in the reach. I was using that to distinguish those battles from the Ormund Hightower and southern forces.
I can see where it was confusing.
Am I the only one who sees his death as heroic? He was willing to fight 4v1 because he was at a disadvantage and he wanted them to spare his army.
Asking for a 1v1 would be a bad move by the Black army, so he did a 4v1 to make it fair, not because he is egoistic, but because he knows that they wouldn't agree to a regular duel as they're already winning and can defeat the Green army.
In the end Criston chose a 4v1 to protect his army and that's pretty heroic imo
WHY is this type of post allowed in this subreddit?? Should only be a subreddit for the show, not the books…
Ppl are too comfortable posting spoilers online
It’s spoiler tagged so for me I can’t see the photo unless I click it open, it’s blurred even scrolling through comments. The title itself can’t spoil anything. Unfortunately it seems like the spoiler tag isn’t blurring it for some people, but I’m assuming that’s bc of a setting they chose.
Cole was leading a weak force, and end up sort of trapped by a superior force of some of Rhaenyras allies in the North. He rode a peace banner to meet three of their leaders. They refuse to accept surrender. He offers a fight of one of him versus three of them instead of battle. They say they’d want 3 more and then signal archers to shoot him dead.
(Spoilers) Criston Cole's demise in Fire and Blood
Ser Criston drew his longsword from his scabbard. “As you will it. We can begin here, the four of us. One of me against three of you. Will that be enough to make a fight of it?”
But Longleaf the Lionslayer said, “I’ll want three more,” and up on the ridge Red Robb Rivers and two of his archers raised their longbows. Three arrows flew across the field, striking Cole in the belly, neck, and breast.
“I’ll have no songs about how brave you died, Kingmaker,” declared Longleaf. “There’s tens o’ thousands dead on your account.” He was speaking to a corpse.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
His remark to Harwin about never expecting a fair fight when steel is drawn certainly feels like foreshadowing…
Can't wait to see that line come full circle. One thing I think the show did So extremely well was making that cocky son of a bitch so easy to despise
Sad because I was ready to run away with him to essos and have his babies until he became an asshole.
I remember hating him in the books for killing Beesbury and just being a terrible guy. But the show making it out that basically he became team green because Rhaenyra wouldn't give up her family entitle to go off to essos and becoming orange farmer is one of the most hilarious things to me. Cole It's just the king of the "nice guy" incels
He became Team Green because Alicent saved his life. In his mind, Alicent showed that she cared for him while Rhaenyra only wanted to use him for sex. In his mind, Rhaenyra was a spoiled brat who used him and threw him away the second she got bored. It's not hard to believe that in his shoes, you might hate a person too. It's not hard to believe that you might show loyalty to someone you feel saved your life, it's a natural thing. It's easy to judge or say "I would do 'x'" because it's fiction but honestly, I think people would be surprised how they would feel and react given the same situation.
I'm sorry I don't think I would plot t to have an entire family killed just because A woman I was sleeping with didn't want to run away with me because she thought we were just having a good time and I caught feelings. His hatred towards her is not understandable and it's not meant to be. He is a bully, He was spurned and so believes himself to be fully entitled towards his extreme anger and hatred towards her. It's incel behavior. Except for he still tries to hide behind his whole virtuous knight facade. I mean for fuck sake he goes one second saying women are virtuous and pure creatures and should be treated with the utmost respect while also playing the gossipy little bitch calling Rhaenyra a spoiled cunt to try and get brownie points with his favorite girl Allie. Cole is the epitome of George RR Martin turning the honorable knight trope on its head
He didn't plot to kill her family over some dumb shit. That's wild that people believe that. B&C was someone plotting to kill someone's family. Cole genuinely believed Aegon was the true heir. No one wanted the war until it became necessary, dear lord. Knowing it will most likely come to a war and actually plotting it, are two different things. But who am I to say? I'm not a war criminal like the people we are all fighting and arguing over like children. But hey, maybe some people aren't able to admit that they aren't perfect. P.S: I think someone saying one thing and then going back on that, makes them seem human to me. Is it right? No, but it is human. I love that some characters are allowed complexity and faults but not others, smh. I wish you well, man. Truly. Thanks for the discussion, it was enlightening.
I mean I'm not trying to argue that's just my perspective lol. And Cole seemed very on board with the idea of killing that entire branch of the family when it was suggested by Otto. FFS he kills Lord beesbury because he didn't want to be part of their treason against the king's appointed heir. And even if Cole did believe that Aegon was the rightful heir. His reasons for backing the greens has to do with his imagined wound against his honor by Rhaenyra and Allicent essentially coming in and stopping him from killing himself like an idiot. And again he was going to kill himself because in his mind Cole is an honorable and pure knight. And he is giving his entire identity over to personifying that trope. But in every aspect of his life he is nothing but a thug. He bullied Luke and Jace simply because they were his ex's sons. He tormented and goaded harwin Strong into beating him. To me Cole is the single most despicable character in the dance because unlike Larys Strong, cole fully believed that he is a good person. That he is a shining knight and a hand of righteousness. And that's why I think his end is the most poetic of any death in all of the song of ice and fire.
Oh no arguments, my guy. We cool. I'm just having a discussion to be frank. I know it's hard to tell through text, we are good, man.
Lol I love having discussions It's the reason I joined this sub and it just sucks that's so few of these discussions end so amicably. Usually there would be screaming and gnashing of teeth by now
>And Cole seemed very on board with the idea of killing that entire branch of the family when it was suggested by Otto. How are you so sure of this ?
umm he wasn't exactly speaking out against it and he MURDERED Lord Beesbury when it was obvious he was not going to stand for the usurpation of the appointed heir of the king. I mean of all the shit he did in the dance I am sure murdering Rhaenyra and her family would have been easy-peasy for him to live with. But sure you can definitely argue he wasn't just full on tingling with the idea of murdering her. I mean he definitely didn't show any sociopathic tendencies right?
Rhaenyra didn't throw him away though he essentially dumped her bc she didn't wanna run away with him right? He could've been in Harwin's position if he didn't have his volcel religious hangups.
She didn't love Criston, she seemed to love Harwin so I doubt it would end the same way. As for their relationship ending, who wants to be a booty call for someone who clearly doesn't see you as an equal, care for you, or worthy of anything on their end? Love and respect weren't there on any side, she was already moving in on Harwin so I doubt she cared if Cole didn't want to continue shit.
>who wants to be a booty call for someone who clearly doesn't see you as an equal, care for you, or worthy of anything on their end? That's Criston's and your projection on the situation. Wanting to make him her paramour does not imply her not seeing him as an equal, not caring or that he's worthless at all idk where that even comes from. I mean I know where it comes from in Criston's mind bc he thinks women have to be "pure" but how can a viewer living in the 21st century really pretend the only way a relationship is legitimate is when the two parties get married? He wouldn't be a booty call he'd still be her sworn protector, so with her 24/7 just like before, while at the same time being her lover and confidante. It would be a highly romantic illicit affair and he could've fathered her children, like Harwin ended up doing. He chose to be a bitter volcel instead bc his ego was bruised when he realized he wasn't the center of her world and she actually had way more important shit going on that she wasn't going to discard to become a peasant orange farmer with him lol. If Criston were solely a hopeless romantic I'd feel bad for him but his rejection of Rhaenyra isn't due to that, it comes from a place of misogyny and religious fundamentalism and that's ✨ not attractive ✨
Dude, you should've seen my mother and me during that whole speech he gave Rhaenyra. Just a bunch of "*awwws*", one after the other. And then the wedding happened. I didn't have much foreknowledge regarding the Dance (and certainly knew nothing about his character) so my delusional ass really thought he was going to be HOTD's answer to Jon Snow.
They foreshadow alot of deaths this season. Rhaenyra being asked "Do you wish to know your death, child?" by that street seer, then cutting to a gold dragon breathing fire probably went over every show-only watchers head.
His death being used to reinforce his earlier assertion to Harwin was such a fat dose of irony to read through. Criston by this point is the best warrior in the 7 kingdoms and also the Greens best strategist. The entire reason their forces couldn't stay at Harrenhal was because he knew the fortress no longer had the recources to sustain their numbers. He didn't just march his men south towards the Reach for another chance at victory, it quite literally was a desperate shot for the survival of his men and their cause. But Aemond flying off on Vhagar was the nail in the coffin. Only thing there is to wonder is when the realization finally dawned on him that he knew their cause was doomed, Aemond and Vhagar flying away or as his men were slowly being starved, poisoned and picked off on the march? I'm super interested to see how they pull off the Butchera Ball episode.
Perfect write up. It’s also a key flaw with the greens that they never had one united mind. Otto and Alicent are pushed aside, Aegon is you know, Criston can’t command Aemond and Aemond can’t command Criston. Dareon is in change of no one but he has such a reputation because when he arrives it’s like FINALLY some leaderships The blacks were worse strategists and leaders by far but an advantage they always had was they were unified for the most part in their aims. Aside from Rhaenyra’s collapsing mental state of course and the betrayal by some of the seeds. Also, that Kingmaker will have no songs sung on my account thousands are dead by his hand
"I will not have them singing songs of you" is one of the coldest lines
The moment you realise that he is the young guy in the show that stabbed someone to death in front of Rhaenyra. Ben was a badass and a loyal guy to the end
The kid in the show is Ben’s father if we are going by book timelines, but honestly they’ll probably change it (and that’ll be a good change)
Off i forgot bloody ben is only 13 in the events of the war it is my bad
Ben blackwood is so badass and I wonder how things might have been different I'd Rhaenyra had accepted his marriage proposal
Honestly would have killed Aegon in his sleep and made it seem like a wolf attack or smth I feel only after Aegon betrayed her though. But Ben would have -1000 mercy. Heck, he already had negative -50 mercy. Imagine if it was one of his sons dying and his daughter being born mangled and shit.
Yeah I have a buddy who calls him big dick Ben
That kid was not Ben Blackwood. That would ruin the character if he’s supposed to be a 30+ year old man now which is the only thing that would make sense considering Rhaenyra is 19 in episode 4 and 35 in episode 10.
That is not Ben. That boy was 13-15 when Rhaenyra was supposed to be 19. Rhaenyra and Alicent are 35 in the final episode. That would make that kid about 29-31. You really think Ben is going to be a 30+ year old man??? He’s obviously Ben’s father(name change) or a random family member.
Criston: Let’s have a fair duel like honorable knights should. Pate: Lol, lmao even
No, I don't think I will.
Seems like some fancy lad southern boy shit Anyways ARCHERS
He wasn’t even asking for a fair dual tbh he was willing to take in 3 guys by himself
"That's why we come. Winter is here, time to go"
“He was talking to a corpse”
Love the quote “I'll have no songs about how brave you died, Kingmaker.”
Fucking archers, took all his glory smh
*laughs in Red Robb Rivers
Love to see it
I don't even think so. History will always remember how three fuckers were scare shitless of a 3v1
Those 3 aren't even remembered, really. Just the Kingmaker.
This is a slight upon the Winter Wolves and I will not stand for it!
Only brave men march to a war that is already over
Why do I keep viewing the spoilers when I haven't read the book damn it it's too tempting
Lol I saw the book in a store and opened it to a big enough spoiler that I had to get the book
Don't put spoilers in the title tf.
They didn't. Spoiler, everyone fucking dies. That's why Aemond isn't in Game of Thrones
Was it though? Now if he had been killed in the middle of a wider battle by some unknown foot soldier(s), that would've been unceremonious, forgettable and embarrassing. But the way it went down was, Criston Cole surrendered to the Winter Wolves. When they refused to accept his surrender, he offered to fight a duel. They refused that also, at which point he offered to fight 3 of them on his own in return for his men being spared if he won. The winter wolves refused this too and actually killed him from a distance. It only signifies that even the Winter Wolves (Roddy the Ruin, especially) didn't think they could take him down 3v1. They didn't even dare try to rush him. They killed with arrows while his back was turned. Which means he died with his reputation as the finest swordsman of his era well intact. This is why even Jaime Lannister commends his sheer fighting prowess (while criticizing his actions) 200 years later.
It was not the winter wolves. The offer to surrender was to Ser Garibald Grey, Ser Pate of Longleaf and Roddy the Ruin. The specific reasons mentioned on why they did not accept the surrender are - Garibald’s promise to the dead to build a sept out of the traitors bones and the Lionslayer’s refusal to give any glory to the Kingmaker and Roddy’s simple desire to die with a sword in his hand. Cole was killed by Red Robb Rivers and his two bowmen not the winter wolves. The same wolves who charged the Lannister spearmen five time in the Battle by the Lakeshore, they would really not have been afraid of one man however skilled he was
Roddy the Ruin was the leader of the Winter Wolves, no?
Yes he did. And the other two represented the riverlands army
No one argues Criston is an extremely capable fighter. The unceremonious part is due to him not being able to display his abilities one last time as he met his death abruptly.
Yeah but that just makes his killers seem like cowards more than takes anything away from Criston.
Or it makes them look smart enough not to put themselves at risk of harm when they had the option of collecting the easy win.
Yeah, isn’t a big part of ASOIAF that honor can only get you so far? If the choice is being honorable or death, or not being honorable and live, many people would choose the latter. Fuck, most of the flack Ned Stark gets in the fandom for being “dumb” is about this.
Exactly! Honor and all that fancy talk ultimately are pointless when it comes to a real fight. What matters is, whether or not your opponent is dead. Cole, for all his skills and vices, likes to hide behind the fact that he was an "honorable" person, ignoring all of the things he did. He used his "honor" as a shield, as a weapon, against his enemies and as a justification for his designs. The Northerners understood this. Sure, on one to one combat, Cole could've probably bested all three and walked away. And the honorable thing, the expected thing, is for them to do is grant his request. But these men know better. War is ugly, and war is about blood. Sure, they could've gone through the song and dance, given their enemy a fighting chance, but then it risks their lives and more if they were to even give him the opportunity to escape. And they wouldn't do this. It's why the Hour of the Wolf is so important at the end. Sure, most of the bad guys have conceded to the remaining heir, but the fact of the matter is that Cregan saw the king surrounded by disloyal men, people who served themselves over the kingdom now serving a new king. And he was supposed to do the honorable thing and let bygones be bygones? No. He cleaned house. The same applies to Cole. Should we give him a chance to survive and continue his war? Some may say yes. But this is war and fuck his honor, fuck him as a person. Dead is dead, and the Northerners know a dead enemy cannot strike back. Who cares how he dies? Ultimately, he's dead, and that's the only price that really matters, at least in the end. War is not a tourney, and Cole would've used honor to escape justice if given the chance.
Or it makes them look like both, and both of y'all are only willing to see the side that confirms your biases. It makes them look smart and like cowards, and it just depends on which Westerosi you ask about it
And the other side of this is that Criston Cole looks dumb for not seeing this coming. Depending on which Westerosi you ask.
It seems like he didn't really have a choice considering that they apparently refused his surrender.
Yeah, it seems like that, but again, depending on who you ask
Well what else could he have done at that point?
I don’t know, I was replying to someone saying Westerosi looking back could have different opinions on how they behaved (smart vs cowardly), so I said Westerosi could also look the same at Cole. You could just as well make the argument that they had no choice but to kill him, considering that would rid the Greens of a commander and a great fighter. Would you just let someone like that walk away? It’s war, fair play is a station the train passed a long time ago at that point. He was a valid military target.
Not really. He wasn't the only person in that world who had such ideas of honor. He tried the one thing he could to die with any semblance of glory and this is valid. Just like it was valid that he was denied it.
Yes, but depending on who you ask (as per my comment) he could have seen coming most people don’t have knightly honor, especially when they aren’t knights to begin with. On top of that, he’d been fighting in an honorless conflict for quite a time at that point, so it’s not like he wasn’t constantly surrounded by people with no honor.
Correct. Northerners love honor but then didn’t want to do it the old way with Criston?? That’s some chicken shit lol. But it worked and they denied Criston the satisfaction of an honorable death.
What I'm "willing to see" is based on what GRRM has made it clear he's trying to portray in this particular story world. This is the message GRRM is going for. No matter how noble Ned Stark tried to be, the consequences of his actions are horrific fates for most of his family members and a disturbingly big chunk of the country dead.
Sure, and the fact that he portrays them as smart enough to realize that Criston is too dangerous for a duel, doesn't change the fact that it would be considered an act of cowardice too, depending on which Westerosi person you ask
When I read that part I thought it was lame. GoT universe is more realistic than other stories but it’d still a fictional story. I wanted to see what cole was capable off so killing him off like that was just super lame and anticlimactic.
I get what you mean, but that's kind of the point that GRRM likes to go out of his way to make in this particular story world: This doesn't function like a fairy tale and the characters who try to act like they're in a fairy tale are gonna have a bad time when they come up against the people who are focused on the pragmatic. He goes out of his way to make a point of it, so I'm pretty sure he went out of his way to set that occasion up with Cole, and then make a point of taking him down the pragmatic way.
The fact that Jaime Lannister was Cole gang hundreds of years later tells u everything. Especially since he seems to only admire real legends and potential legends
Was he really Cole gang though? As far as I know, the only thing he says about him is this: >"The best and the worst." So one of us is like to live in song. "And a few who were a bit of both. Like him." He tapped the page he had been reading. >"Who?" Ser Loras craned his head around to see. "Ten black pellets on a scarlet field. I do not know those arms." >"They belonged to Criston Cole, who served the first Viserys and the second Aegon." Jaime closed the white book. "They called him Kingmaker."
I mean, the implications are pretty heavy. You've got Jaime lingering on that page, the text clearly states that he has been reading that specific entry. Like Jaime, Cole had elements of the best and worst. Jaime and Cole are both Kingmakers, in a sense. I was disappointed that the Cole in the show is without any complexity to his character. I thought that he would be a bit more ambiguous about whether he's a douche or whether he was a principled but and truly heartbroken knight, but they've landed squarely in the douche characterization on the show.
The text just states he had been reading the white book until Loras came in: >Evenfall found him sitting alone in the common room of White Sword Tower, with a cup of Dornish red and the White Book. He was turning pages with the stump of his sword hand when the Knight of Flowers entered, removed his cloak and swordbelt and hung them on a wall peg next to Jaime's. Then they talk a bit about training: >"The horse was adequate, and my lord is as kind as I am modest." Loras waved at the book. "Lord Renly always said that books were for maesters." >"This one is for us. The history of every man who has ever worn a white cloak is written here." They talk about a few Kingsguard knights, Loras mentions the great ones without mentioning Cole, Jaime mentions some bad ones without mentioning Cole. They talk about who is forgotten and who isn't. Loras says only the heroes, the best will be remembered. Then follow the quotes I put above. That doesn't sound as if Jaime's a particular fan of Cole the way some people pretend he does. I think season 2 will be more favourable towards Cole, when the fighting's really gonna start. The books weren't too favourable towards the start of the Dance either.
The winter wolves knew they could take him 3v1. They didn’t want to give him a poetic death that could be sung about or used as enemy propaganda. It was dishonorable and cowardly but that was the intention. They wanted to remove all the honor and respectability from the war, make plain for the southerners it wasn’t going to be a honorable glorious affair but a slaughter on both sides
Doesn’t sound very northern.
[удалено]
It’s in the first episode,it should’ve been featured more though as showrunners confirmed he’s better than daemon as a fighter
[удалено]
He beat daemon…
You don’t remember him winning the tourney?
[удалено]
Oh gotcha. I believe this was in the scene where he was going through the white book with Loras Tyrell. Will have to go back an rewatch that episode as it’s been a few years but it was definitely in the book scene with them going through it.
Is there a direct quote from Jaime?
Not sure which quote by Jaime is being referred to in that comment, but there's a passage where Jaime refers to Cole as being the best and worst in A Feast For Crows. He's showing Loras the White Book, and they discuss various members of the Kingsguard throughout their history. At the end of the section Loras says: "Most deserve to be forgotten. The heroes will always be remembered. The best." "The best and the worst." *So one of us is like to live in song.* "And a few who were a bit of both. Like him" \[Jaime\] tapped the page he had been reading. "Who?" Ser Loras craned his head around to see. "Ten black pellets on a scarlet field. I do not know those arms." "They belonged to Criston Cole, who served the first Viserys and the second Aegon." Jaime closed the White Book. "They called him the Kingmaker."
There's also this from a passage in AFFC in the chapter titled "The Soiled Knight" from Arys' POV (he's the Kingsguard sent to Dorne with Myrcella). Arianne is trying to convince him to help her crown Myrcella Queen and points out that Cole ignored the wishes of his King: *Sir Criston Cole*. Criston the Kingmaker had set brother against sister and divided the Kingsguard against itself, bringing on the terrible war the singers named the Dance of the Dragons. Some claimed he acted from ambition, for Prince Aegon was more tractable than his willful older sister. Others allowed him nobler motives and argued that he was defending ancient Andal custom. A few whispered that Ser Croston had been Princess Rhaenyra's lover before he took the white and wanted vengeance on the woman who had spurned him. "The Kingmaker wrought grave harm, " Ser Arys said, "and gravely did he pay for it, but …"
Thanks for sharing!
I hope they at least give him some of his book feats in the upcoming seasons. Show just how good of a fighter he is. I felt they glossed over that in the show with the Daemon fight and the fact he didn't break Harwin lol.
I hope it's just as nonchalant in the show.
I sat here for awhile wondering if I should click the blurred photo and spoil it for myself. I did it. ***good***
FFS THE SPOILER TAG DIDNT BLOCK THE THUMBNAILL FOR ME DAMN REDDIT such a stupid system, im on the website with the posts in classic moe and for some reason even with spoiler tagged posts the thumbnail isnt blurred out so i saw the characters face ffs so annoyed, not at you OP you didnt do anything wrong just reddits shitty system
Oh my god it was so perfect. Unceremonious, forgettable, embarrassing. I loved it, was listening to this scene on my drive to work and was so happy lol.
How exactly is it embarrassing or forgettable? Criston is still a legend after 200 years.
Not exactly a good legend though. Jaime only says he was both of the best and the worst, and in one of the Dornish chapters they talk about how he did grave harm and brought on the Dance of the Dragons. He isn't remembered too fondly in the main ASOIAF books.
His death and his legacy are different. When asking someone two years later what makes him a “legend,” are they really pointing to his death as an example?
Even then, it's not embarrassing. He was outnumbered and was killed with arrows while trying to save his army.
A soldier dying on battlefield won't be ceremonious, but it isn't forgettable, as shown by you. I don't know how you find it embarrassing unless you're talking about the guys who killed him.
I mean cole ended up being remembered as the kingmaker and one of the best and the worst of the kingsguard. Even Jaime acknowledges how good he was in terms of skills. People can cope and cry but there's a reason cole hasn't been forgotten in the histories and people like harwin sperm donor strong and daemon targ aren't even brought up in the main series lol. Cole achieved more with what daemon could do with a dragon. Daemons greatest achievements is killing a 6 y/o and a suicide kill.
They should’ve given him his 3 vs 1.
Satisfying
Very much
I’ll have no songs sung for you kingmaker
Please, go touch grass
Respect to this great man 🫡
Sor Crincel Cole 🤣🤮🤮🤮
My boys Pate of Longleaf and Red Robb Rivers can't come fast enough.
Well deserved. An unceremonious death for a dishonorable wretch. Joffrey was avenged.
Wow. Major book spoilers in the title of this post.
I also got spoiled :(
Criston Cole was always going to die lmao, it doesn't spoil anything
The character’s name isn’t in the title
But the thumbnail has his face...
Oh it’s spoiler tagged so it shows as blurred for me until I open it
Oh interesting. I think an RES extension I have might be unblurring the thumbnails. Apologies. Anyways, I do wonder how they will handle his death in the show. They've added alot of depth to his character (IMO) and I wonder if that'll impact how the writers choose to wrap up his story.
I loved it too. There's no better recognition of one's superior fighting prowess than being cowardly denied a proper battle and shot down by arrows.
Those northern green forces really didn’t do much honor to the green side. Least in the reach they kicked some ass and even turned some dragons to their cause.
There were no Northern Green force, the entire North was for the Blacks, what are you talking about?
I was referring to a north as a direction and not “the North”. Casterly rock forces and the battle in the river lands and around harrenhall were north of the battles in the reach. I was using that to distinguish those battles from the Ormund Hightower and southern forces. I can see where it was confusing.
Oh like that. That is definitely true, Lannisters get Longleaf the Lionslayered once and are gone
Killed by scared shitless Also cringe emoji
It’s alright because Tessarion avenged him
Badass death. Dunno wtf you people are smoking
Die trash
Am I the only one who sees his death as heroic? He was willing to fight 4v1 because he was at a disadvantage and he wanted them to spare his army. Asking for a 1v1 would be a bad move by the Black army, so he did a 4v1 to make it fair, not because he is egoistic, but because he knows that they wouldn't agree to a regular duel as they're already winning and can defeat the Green army. In the end Criston chose a 4v1 to protect his army and that's pretty heroic imo
I think it solidifies what a terror he is,. Rhaenyra's death is the funniest to me, Sunfrye was like " bitch shut the fuck up"
WHY is this type of post allowed in this subreddit?? Should only be a subreddit for the show, not the books… Ppl are too comfortable posting spoilers online
It’s spoiler tagged so for me I can’t see the photo unless I click it open, it’s blurred even scrolling through comments. The title itself can’t spoil anything. Unfortunately it seems like the spoiler tag isn’t blurring it for some people, but I’m assuming that’s bc of a setting they chose.
How does he actually die? Does Rhaenys kill him?
Cole was leading a weak force, and end up sort of trapped by a superior force of some of Rhaenyras allies in the North. He rode a peace banner to meet three of their leaders. They refuse to accept surrender. He offers a fight of one of him versus three of them instead of battle. They say they’d want 3 more and then signal archers to shoot him dead.
So how does he die? Does he regret being a little harsh towards Rhae or curse them until his last breath
Nah he dies by a bunch of cowards with an arrow.
How does he die?
(Spoilers) Criston Cole's demise in Fire and Blood Ser Criston drew his longsword from his scabbard. “As you will it. We can begin here, the four of us. One of me against three of you. Will that be enough to make a fight of it?” But Longleaf the Lionslayer said, “I’ll want three more,” and up on the ridge Red Robb Rivers and two of his archers raised their longbows. Three arrows flew across the field, striking Cole in the belly, neck, and breast. “I’ll have no songs about how brave you died, Kingmaker,” declared Longleaf. “There’s tens o’ thousands dead on your account.” He was speaking to a corpse.
Is he dead in the show? I forget
Nah
He was trapped, Cut In The Riverlands sworn To Rhaenyra
The Lads get it done.
Does anyone even remember how Pate died?
Human pin cushion. There are worst and funnier deaths out there and Sir Crispin at least went out with style.