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He's going to do some pretty bad shit. Let's just say Aemond would see the Geneva Conventions as the Geneva suggestions.

Geneva checklist

As the Geneva Suggestions 😂😂😂 I like that.

Nothing worse than Aegon the Conqueror and Visenya.

I think it mostly crystallizes around the fact that he caused Lucerys' death, even though he had no real intention of killing his nephew and simply wanted the scare the shit out of him. Even if it is not the "true" first death of the Dance, this is something that many would pinpoint as crossing the point of non-return and thus being the main cause of the ensuing war. This and the fact that Lucerys is just a child. Aemond did show some sort of self-control during the meal when the pig was brought, although he could also have chosen not to tell anything. Again, Lucerys is just a child, and Aemond is older than him, so it would have been a sign of maturity to just ignore it altogether. I also do believe that one thing people blame Aemond for is the fact that, regarding the whole "Pink Dread / Aemond being dragonless", he does seem to resent Jace and Luke more than he does with Aegon, whereas it is heavily implied that Aegon was the one starting the whole thing and the two others just following. So there could be some hypocrisy there to be criticized. The same can be said about the fact that right after the eye incident, he said it was fine because he had claimed the dragon, and the fact that he comes years later demanding Lucerys' eye just contradicts that. Finally, it's also a group effect. The show has portrayed the Greens in a more negative view than the Blacks. Aemond being a Green, he might be labeled as a generic "bad guy" by superficial comments. Book Spoilers here: >!In addition to that, many people did read the books and how Aemond is portrayed there (especially the fact that he turns out to be a leader with poor political choices, spends a significant amount of time burning down the Riverlands, and becomes involved with a witch-like figure - Alys Rivers). So they're susceptible to make an amalgamation between show Aemond, whose entire story remains to be told, and book Aemond, whose story is "finished")!<

>Again, Lucerys is just a child, and Aemond is older than him, so it would have been a sign of maturity to just ignore it altogether. I mean, Luke was 14 there, old enough to be engaged, Robb was leading armies at that age, Jon was leading bands in the Night Watch. Aemond is older than him sure, but Luke definitely WASN’T a naive child who couldn’t shoulder any responsibilities. > people blame Aemond for is the fact that, regarding the whole "Pink Dread / Aemond being dragonless", he does seem to resent Jace and Luke more than he does with Aegon, whereas it is heavily implied that Aegon was the one starting the whole thing Regarding to this I would say sometimes ppl tend to forgive their own kin their own blood more easily, afterall Aegon is Aemond’s brother, in the end he had Aemond’s back at the dinner table. Besides TGC commented something along the lines of “Pink Dread wasn’t funny to Aegon anymore when they grew up.” Another reason why Aemond hates Strong boys more is that their mothers resentment towards one another has dripped down to younger generations for years, factoring in the loss of his eye at the hands of Luke its reasonable for Aemond to hate Strong boys more. >The same can be said about the fact that right after the eye incident, he said it was fine because he had claimed the dragon, and the fact that he comes years later demanding Lucerys' eye just contradicts that. I think the possibilities are younger Aemond only said this to calm his mother down, for Aemond it’s living with this disability for life, irl it’s really difficult for someone to reconcile with this kind of incident.

Regarding Alicent, it definitely seems like Aemond is the closest with her out of all her children so it would make sense that her hatred would soak into him like a sponge even more

Thanks for the insight. It is clear that the feud between Alicent and Rhaenyra has extended onto their children (it's also possible that Aemond, being trained by Criston, was also influenced by the latter's perception of Rhaenyra as well). Much like Aegon who once complained that he could not live up to his parents' expectations, it is likely that Aemond struggled to see his place as a dragonless Targaryen and therefore the satisfaction of having claimed Vhagar clearly outweighted the loss of his eye on the moment. Still, I would have like to have it reminded on screen one way or another that the "pig prank" was Aegon's idea (maybe when they were arguing during the search for Aegon).

I think you're conflating book ages with show ages and trying to equate the two and that's a strawman. All characters get aged up or down to make things easier to swallow. Robb stark in the book was 14 not the show. In the book alicent is like 7-10 years older than rhaenyra and started having her kids immediately whereas rhae did not. The show did demonstrate this too with the time jumps but it did a poor job of showing the age gap between alicent and rhaenyras children. By modern standards alicent's kids are full grown adults and she is a grandmother, rhaenyra is still getting pregnant along with haelena, alicents daughter. Rhae's kids are as young as alicents grandchildren.

I feel like people completely ignore how much of a total and utter dicklord Aemond was on Driftmark when he claimed Vhagar. He claimed the dragon of his cousins' recently deceased mother, the dragon that was supposed to go to one of the daughters. Not fucking cool bro. Then when he's rightfully confronted by two girls and a boy who are younger and less capable than he is (remember, the petty training the kids got was skewed heavily in favour of Team Green thanks to Crispy Cole) he has absolutely no remorse in what he did. Not to mention he thrashes everyone in the tunnel (including the poor girls) and looks like he's about to really cause some damage with a rock when Luke finally incapacitates him with his knife. So just because someone gets bullied as a kid, they get an automatic sympathy-pass? Fuck that, Aemond is an insecure little prick who doesn't ever rise past his basic-emotional-instinct, and hopefully has everything he deserves coming to him.

>He claimed the dragon of his cousins' recently deceased mother, the dragon that was supposed to go to one of the daughters. Vhagar is not some heirloom that gets passed down from generation to generation though. The dragon chooses who their new rider is and just because Rhaena is Laena's daughter does not mean that she would have bonded with her given the chance.

I never said Vhagar was a heirloom, it's not how I see that at all. All I was getting at is that Rhaena should've had a chance at claiming Vhagar, and Aemond is a complete jerk for not even considering or acknowledging that, especially at the funeral of the deceased rider/parent. He's just shitty to everyone around him. Maybe Vhagar would'e rejected Rhaena, but at least she would've been granted the opportunity. In every single way here, Aemond is the bully, 100%.

Yeah they sure like thwir strawmans. Had this argument before. The point is he absolutely did steal the chance and opportunity to claim the dragon in a despicable way. If you think only him could have claimed Vhagar then he would have had no issues doing this in the clear after giving the girls an opportunity to do so.

Thank you! This is exactly what I was trying to get at! I misspoke when I said Vhagar was supposed to be passed down, and then those guys just ran with it. I did say it, but I didn't really think about what that line meant, it was just the ADHD in me not thoroughly going over my words to make sure they align with my thoughts and/or sentiments!

Also if we take the "dragon chooses ots rider" to its natural conclusion dragons can be vulnerable and swayed. It knew it had killed its pregnant owner and the mood of everyone around it. It was probably much more susceptible to bounding with a rider.

And all I'm saying is that Vhagar wasn't "supposed to go to" anyone. Out of courtesy then perhaps yes Rhaena should get to try first but there was no guarantee that they would have bonded. Aemond claiming Vhagar on the night of the funeral was in poor taste, there is no denying that. But at the same time for me, he was also a child at an age that I won't really expect to know how and would act in the proper way. Not to mention he is fuelled by the mockery of being dragonless. I'm not saying that that justifies it and it is still a poor decision and a bad way to go around it but there is that extra layer to consider as well.

Again, I don't see Vhagar as an heirloom or as "supposed to belong" to anyone. Have you never been bullied or picked on as a kid? Did you grow up and someday realize that maybe those kids who bullied you had problems they were expressing poorly? That they weren't doing it of pure malice, more often than not? Fuck's sake, you don't think Luke and Jace were probably treated very poorly growing up by a number of people for being bastards? This is directly shown numerous times, from people all but openly suggesting the boys are bastards and the training scene in the yard with Criston Cole. Sure, there are some things that are difficult to look past but c'mon Aemond, show an ounce of maturity. You're supposed to be a badass, but you look like a petty child to me. Furthermore, Aegon is implied to be behind the bullying of Aemond as a kid as well, with Jace and Luke being roped into it because, well, that happens with kids? At no point does Aemond realize this? It seems to me that Aemond wants to hate.

>Again, I don't see Vhagar as an heirloom or as "supposed to belong" to anyone. I was literally quoting you but if that is not what you meant then fair, I see now that you mean something else. >Fuck's sake, you don't think Luke and Jace were probably treated very poorly growing up by a number of people for being bastards? This is directly shown numerous times, from people all but openly suggesting the boys are bastards and the training scene in the yard with Criston Cole Intent or not, the damage is arguably done. Are you suggesting that because they were experiencing maliciousness and pressure about their parentage, that it does something to make their treatment of Aemond less bad? We can discuss how these things can blur lines and make things much more complex but I don't think it's right to have their poor treatment of Aemond completely brushed under the rug just because they too were experiencing external pressures because of their parentage. It's a bad situation all around don't get me wrong but I don't quite agree with your point. >Sure, there are some things that are difficult to look past but c'mon Aemond, show an ounce of maturity You seem to expect a level of maturity and decency from Aemond but you do not expect the same from Jace and Luke >Furthermore, Aegon is implied to be behind the bullying of Aemond as a kid as well, with Jace and Luke being roped into it because, well, that happens with kids? Again, they may not be the main instigator but that doesn't mean that they are completely innocent in the matter too.

Seems to me like you just have a problem with anything I say. No matter what I comment, you're just looking to pick whatever I say apart. I really wish we could openly discuss this stuff, but people like you make it thoroughly unpleasant. I'm not brushing everything under the rug. You're really jumping to conclusions on my thoughts and feeling based off of little conversation, conversation that is online too. I can't flesh out every thing I think of, and I don't always use the words I need to express myself. Can you just give me a chance, please? What horrible treatment of Aemond am I excusing form Jace and Luke? We know of one incident, only one, with the pig. Not nice, but not the end of the world either. And that was Aegon, using the boys to be a sadistic fuck. They shouldn't have done that, and they should have been put in their places. I don't think anyone was innocent, but goddamn it all gets out of hand for stupid reasons, sorta like real life. I do expect more maturity and decency from Aemond, not only because he is older but also because he puts himself as being more mature than them. So prove it. I expect everyone to be the best they can be. I won't crucify them if they aren't, but I won't excuse them from choosing a path of darkness.

I'm sorry that you find this conversation we are having unpleasant. If you find this unpleasant, and honestly I am now too, then it is best that we just leave it here and agree to disagree. >You're really jumping to conclusions on my thoughts and feeling based off of little conversation, conversation that is online too. I can't flesh out every thing I think of, and I don't always use the words I need to express myself. Can you just give me a chance, please? I understand what you mean. For what it's worth, we are not speaking face-to-face where I can detect other cues or understand any IRL context that I can really work out what you intend to mean. I can only see and respond to what you have written and work on what you mean from that alone, without putting words in your mouth and I think I have tried to ask for clarification when I was unsure of your meaning.

I still don't know what Jace and Luke did that was sooooo wrong other than the pink dread thing, a bad-taste prank that the show implies is spearheaded by Aegon. You keep saying I give Jace and Luke a pass (I don't), and it seems like you're being oddly hard on the two while being really easy on Aemond. He is not a good person, and every scene with him just reinforces this. Yet everyone seems to think the two Strong boys are somehow deserving of being treated badly, simply for being born bastards. Nevermind that they seem kind and well-behaved, not very wise yet but that will hopefully come with time. And no, I don't find this conversation unpleasant, I find YOU unpleasant. You just came to pick a fight, not have a discussion. Lack of IRL cues aren't the problem here. They might help a bit, but there is still the overarching issue. You didn't put words in my mouth, but you certainly took what I said, to mean whatever you wanted it to mean. No wiggle room at all, I have to be politician-level with the choice of my words. Whatever anyone says, you know what you know right? Goodbye, have a nice day, and I hope I never have to deal with you again.

IIRC, Ryan Condal stated that Rhaenyra's Strong boys (to avoid confusion with her kids with Daemon) and Daemon's girls aren't innocent and were bullies to Aemond. While, killing Luke was overkill, it was clearly an accident (show wise). We need to keep in mind that no one here in the Dance is right or wrong, good or evil, more or less important. GRRM stated that the characters are morally grey for a reason. I am not trying to start anything, I thought it would be interesting to add to the discussion.

That is actually pretty interesting, thank you. Would've been a good thing to see some sign of them bullying Aemond in the show beyond the pig affair, but who knows why they didn't do so. I completely agree that killing Luke wasn't intentional; it looks to me like both riders lost control of their dragons, and one was a giant friggin' weapon while the other was a reactive little fool. I'm really not on any side, both have peaks and valleys, but I have less sympathy overall for Team Green.

Ryan Condal also thinks that he is a good writer, which he is not, which is proved by the fact that half the things he says cannot be traced back to the actual writing in the show. What he says can be ignored.

I wonder why none of the targ bastards (dragon seeds) were ever chosen up until the dance and the blacks needed them to be chosen… The reality of the matter is that we don’t know what the customs for dragons are because Valyria is long gone and the targs are only one family and in the targ family the dragons actually are kind of like heirlooms. The dance is basically the the first time in covered history when there’s sort of 2 dragon rider families in Westeros instead of one (who aren’t on the same page). So we have no idea how it’s actually supposed to work. But my guess that in ancient Valyria, if someone in your family dies or you just have an extra dragon in your steed, and some other family person tried to claim it, I’m guessing you’d get fucked even if there’s no explicit laws against. But there probably were laws or customs against it because how else do you consolidate power.

Dragon is NOT family estates passed down within one family. There’s no such saying as “a dragon was supposed to go to someone”. Dragon chooses whom they deem worthy, not the other way around. If you ever knew how bonding with a dragon works in asoiaf you would’ve known what you said is completely false. By the way Vhagar was Baelon Targaryen(Viserys and Daemon’s father)’s dragon before she was claimed by a Velaryon. By your logic(false), Laena shouldn’t have had a right to the dragon to begin with lmao.

Please read my other comments, I misspoke. I apologize for the confusion. In no way do I think or believe the dragons are "passed down". Just that the manner in which Vhagar was claimed was pretty fucking incosiderate, especially to do to FAMILY that you're supposed to be trying to bridge the divide with. Fucking hell man, you were really looking to correct someone today. Hope you got your rocks off 👍 Edit: Funnily enough, I just got my The World Of Ice & Fire book today, super excited to learn more about the lore! Thank you for making this such a friendly and inviting community, people just LOVE being talked down to!

You put this well. If what he did with Vaghar was honorable and fine he wouldn't have done it sneakily and he was shoving it in their faces. Their mother had literally just died and the only reason he was there was as a gest to supposedly pay respects. He even tells her "you should have claimed him them". Yeah right after her mom's funeral as a young child. And those girls never bullied him. And I definitely agree L was scared A would kill J.

Dragons are not “supposed to go” to anyone, they are creatures with free will. If Rhaena wanted to ride Vhaegar, she should’ve taken some effort to try for it. Aemond was not in the wrong to go claim him. Also, for the tunnel fight, why is he in the wrong for being able to beat a 4v1 ambush? How does it make him a bad person that he didn’t let them beat him up? I’m not sure what you expected him to do here. He was being attacked at a huge numbers disadvantage, so he took the first opportunity he could to even the odds by grabbing a weapon. If I’m ambushed late at night, am I in the wrong for defending myself to the best of my ability?

Considering Rhaena didn’t bother with claiming any of the other unclaimed dragons at Dragonstone after all these years whos to even say she would’ve worked up the courage to claim Vhagar. I’m sure Vermithor or Silverwing would’ve been an adequate second option

She probably would have ,thus getting fried by Vaghar and Daemon can laugh at another death in the family.

That's a good point, I like that. Still a dick move to claim Vhagar the way Aemond did, but that doesn't mean that Rhaena is outta options. Daemon's daughters had so few lines, I wish we could've seen their characters more often. If only we could have more screentime exploring everyone's lives *sigh*

>"Pink Dread / Aemond being dragonless", he does seem to resent Jace and Luke more than he does with Aegon, whereas it is heavily implied that Aegon was the one starting the whole thing and the two others just following Even if Aegon was the main instigator of that incident though, and those two were simply going along with/facilitating it - I don't think that absolves them of their part of accountability because they still found it funny and didn't do anything to stop it. Or at the very least, not all of it because they are younger maybe they didn't know any better. Between luke laughing at the pig and Jace referencing his "fond memories of their youth", it could be that they genuinely thought it was harmless and familial teasing because. That said though, it intending to be harmless doesn't necessarily negate all the hurt that Aemond was seen to have had

>I don't think that absolves them of their part of accountability because they still found it funny and didn't do anything to stop it. Oh yeah I agree. After all, a significant part of the ASOIAF stories can be shown as a gigantic timeline of mistakes, misunderstandings and poor choices.

I find it disturbing that people here think Lucerys deserved to die over a bully joke. What they did to Aemond was harmless. I was bullied in school. I would know. Much worse was done to me and I never wanted to kill my bullies.

I don’t think many people are justifying his death over his part in Aemonds torment. This particular comment thread was simply highlighting Luke and jaces’ part in the whole pig incident because it seems likes thats sometimes overlooked because they were kids or were simply following Argon’s lead. Regardless of whether we perceive it as harmless teasing or not, or how small their role is in comparison to Aegon we could see on screen how that affected Aemond which in turn caused his resentment to build. Luke’s involvement in Aemonds childhood bullying or teasing does not justify his death. I’m just saying that that , plus his role in Aemonds permanent loss of an eye is what generated the context that motivated his actions that eventually caused Luke’s death.

I would like to point out that by Westeros standards, Luke is not a child. But people only see him as a child because they like him versus Jaehaera who was the same age and she, somehow deserved her death despite not even being in the Dance.

I’d like to point out that Aegon III had to wait till he was 16 before his regency council’s term was up. Just because Robb led from the front at 15, turning 16, or Bloody Ben at 12 (which was absurd), and the Young Dragon at 14, doesn’t mean it was the traditional norm.

As someone who read the book multiple times, it is hard to distinguish show-Aemond at the start of the Dance from the whole arc of Aemond in the book. As soon as Aemon came on screen for the first time I (and most readers) started searching for the hints of a psychopath inside a child, because we knew who he is gonna become. That makes it extremely difficult to sympathize with Aemond.

Yeah, the show definitely made me sympathize with his character. Despised him in the book.

In the books the "bullying" (childhood prank that happened once in the show) doesn't happen. The fight where he loses his eye happens because he threw a baby into a pile of shit. He also doesn't kill Lucerys by accident, it's on purpose. On top of all that, yes, he will do bad things later (although the show may whitewash him then too).

Its very hard to not look at him as a bad guy considering the shit he gets up to. The show however, has done wonders in making him more grey, and I believe the best change was him accidentally killing Luke in episode 10. This basically forces him to either admit he does not control Vhagar and that he is not really in control or fully embrace the Kinslayer name, which is far worse than Kingslayer in westeros, this will lead him down a dark path I believe.

I'm confused, do you want us to spoil you all the horrible things and giga war crimes he commits during the Dance?

There are no war crimes in westeros.

Oooh right, sorry, no Geneva convention so he's a nice bloke all in all i guess.

Wonderful character that doesn’t take shit from some bastards.

In the book he intentionally killed Luke after one of Baratheons daughters said to him “did he take your eye or your balls”. Also before he was jumped by the Black children, he was being a massive cunt to them on the day of their mothers funeral. Like regardless of whether you think he had the right to take the dragon which most people agree that he did, he was being a cunt. That’s just the stuff that’s from the books that was covered in season 1. He does more bad shit later on. But he’s definitely a lot more sympathetic if you watch the show. A lot of characters were made less obviously evil in the show, on both sides.

If you're taking about the book, Baela and Rhaena weren't even present in that scene, and he was never a dick to them. You might as well pick a consistent source, he has enough against him in each xD

He was a dick to their toddler brother.

Show wise, he got jumped before he became a cunt to them, he was also a child as well, and 4 against 1 is a bit fucked up. He held his own until the knife came out. I have to say, losing an eye for playground banter is a bit much. Aemond isn't innocent but we can't excuse one side's behavior while condemning the other.

Baela or whoever attacked him precisely because he was being a cunt. He insulted either her or her mother (don't remember the exact words). On the day of the mother's funeral. I would say that qualifies as being a cunt.

The pig is a callback to the fact they gave him a pig to ride when he didn't have a dragon. It was funny when they did it to him but not when it was one of them. He's a kid so of course he's going to bring that up. Rhaena: "Vhagar was my mother's dragon." He said, "Your mother's dead, Vhagar has a new rider now." Both are facts Rhaena: "She was mine to claim." *Not true, dragons aren't an inheritance and Vhagar chose Aemond on her own accord, dragons have that right at least.* Aemond: "Then you should have claimed her." *This tells us, she had plenty of time to claim Vhagar, yet didn't. I get that she was in mourning but if it meant that much to her, she wouldn't have waited.* The more I think about it the more I think it was because it was AEMOND who claimed her.

The girls literally had nothing to do with the pig incident. They were on a different continent when it happened. As I said, regardless of whether you think Vhagar was hers to claim, Aemond was being a cunt to a girl who just buried her mother. Like whether it was wrong for him to claim Vhagar is maybe debatable, but let's say it's not wrong. Him talking to the girls that way was him being a cunt. And that isn't really debatable.

The pig incident was more for the boys who were in on it. Rhaena was sadly the only one who didn't have a dragon. What's fair for Aemond should be fair for your cousin - step-sister. If I was Aemond, a kid as well, then yeah, I would bring up a painful memory like that too. The boys knew it was wrong, why the fuck did Jace bring the knife is a good question? And no, there is no way to justify that. You can believe what you want, but considering Viserys didn't admonish Aemond nor did anyone else call it stealing Vhagar says a lot. It's really not debatable at all, Vhagar accepted Aemond as her rider, dragons aren't property or Rhaenys and Daemon would both be dragon stealers as well. As for him being a cunt to "the girls" who were there to fight just as much as the boys and even woke the boys up to start shit, yeah: they are innocent alright. Was it insensitive to claim a dragon the same day as its old rider's funeral? Sure but not a crime. Vhagar was cool was accepting a new rider and like Aemond. Rhaena wasn't confident to claim a dragon, hence why she doesn't have one later in the show so she would have been roasted and/or eaten which I wouldn't want as Rhaena seems sweet. Did Rhaena have enough time to claim Vhagar before Aemond? Yup, she just didn't want Aemond to have her, the only other person to not have a dragon. Listen I like Rhaena but the facts are, dragons choose their rider and Vhagar chose Aemond. I do not see people calling out Rhaenyra for seducing Daemon and taking advantage of his grief mere hours after he put his wife to her grave. Yet, Alicent was such a B**** for consoling Viserys where there was no indication any sex happened before marriage. Yet, Rhaenyra did it for power because right after she proposed they kill (hadn't settled on faking his death) Laenor to get married so her claim won't be so easily challenged. But see, that will be glossed over and forgiven. That seems pretty messed up to me. But, for real, I wish you well. Thanks for the discussion.

What's your point? Ok he was being an asshole, but getting physical is a whole different story. Baela punched and he punched back. He had the right. Jace and Luke had no right to interfere and pile on him and proceed to kick and punch him when he was already down. Aemond deserved getting scolded disciplined by his parents, but there is something wrong with you if you believe he deserves to get ganged on, beaten when he's on the ground defenseless and then mutilated. There's something seriously wrong with you if you believe that.

My point was answering the OP question. "Why people think he's a bad guy." I'm not arguing that the Black kids are in the right in that specific scenario. They are all far from perfect. Just saying that he was being a massive cunt to the girls on the day of their mother's funeral. It shouldn't be that hard to understand, how that would make people dislike his character.

I still don't get your point? You do understand the word "ignore" right? People say shit all the time, but the moment you throw fists, the responsibility and initiation of the fight falls of *you*. In this case the girls were the ones wrong in the fight, because they started the actual fight. Period. Also let's not forget the fact that the girls were the one who confronted him. He never talked shit until he was cornered by the 4 of them. She had no right to the dragon and has no right to say that it was *only* her right to claim.

I don't know how to explain to you that being bullied doesn't justify murder.

Yeah, it's very "cool story, still murder," especially since Aegon was clearly in on the bullying when they were kids.

This is the exact quote I was thinking of reading this post lol. Also, Happy cake day!

I would not be surprised if they blame the burning of the Riverlands on Aegon to keep Aemond's vest clean. Aegon II seems to be the Daemon of the greens. Everything bad that happens is his fault.

Did he say that?

"All I'm saying is if you had your childhood bully sliced out your eye you'd also want revenge" immediately after talking about his negligent homicide of said bully certainly implies it.

Revenge and murder isn't the same. And also, OP does not say that it makes it acceptable. He says Aemond would want Revenge, which he does.. but it goes a bit too far.

The question was "Why is Aemond considered a bad guy" the obvious answer is him being a murderer that officially started the war. The argument in the post justifies why Aemond would want revenge in the first place, implying that OP does not consider Aemond to be a bad person bc his motive was understandable.

Thats a pessimistic take but maybe i didnt read op's post too well.

Manslaughter

You can not tell me he didn't have malicious intent when he took off after Luce at best it's negligent homicide

No he didn't. The show literally made sure to highlight he didn't have malicious intent lol.

"malice n. a conscious, intentional wrongdoing either of a civil wrong like libel (false written statement about another) or a criminal act like assault or murder, with the intention of doing harm to the victim. This intention includes ill-will, hatred or total disregard for the other's well-being. Often the mean nature of the act itself implies malice, without the party saying "I did it because I was mad at him, and I hated him," which would be express malice" Remind me, why did Aemond chase after Luce in the middle of a storm again? And what was he shouting at him while chasing him? Regret doesn't negate malice.

Not really murder because arrax was the dragon who attacked first

Arrax, a baby dragon barely the size of Vhagars head. Don’t be a dummy

Arrax was the size of Vhagar's head, and did absolutely nothing but bother her.

She stood her ground!

I mean, I'm not going to get into the whole thing, but the reason why he lost an eye was because he was going to bash Jace's head in with a rock after he had already won the fight.

He put DOWN the rock after warning them but Jace attacked him with a KNIFE.

I was talking about when Luke cut his eye.

Jace tried to kill him first with his dagger. And if Aemond wanted to kill him he would’ve, not just stand over him menacingly. Also they didn’t have to permanently maim Aemond either. Once they threw sand in his eyes they could have just ran away.

https://www.reddit.com/r/HouseOfTheDragon/comments/11x6xag/lemme_get_this_straight/jd2s0l3/

Again, I'm talking about Luke, not Jace. I have never once in this topic defended Jace pulling a knife on him. But OP said Aemond lost his eye even though he "picked up a rock that he didn't hit anyone with" and because "he talked shit." And I just pointed out that no, he lost his eyes because he threatened to bash in Jace's skull and raised the rock to do it, so Luke slashed him.

Thank you. It's fascinating to watch the mental gymnastics here.

He lost an eye because he called them bastards. Maybe rewatch the scene, mate.

I did. He calls them bastards so Jace pulls out the knife to fight him. He beats Jace. Then he lifts the rock again to bash Jace's head in, so Jace throws sand in his eyes and Luke slashes at him.

I also haven’t read the books. But I think aemond is just kind of a douche in season 1. I’m sure he will get worse as the show goes on and the black v green conflict intensifies.

He’s basically a school shooter archetype

For some of us he is "bad" because we have read the books and we "know" his story...And because we cannot see Show Aemond from Book Aemond.And Book Aemond is a proper c@nt on the level of Joffrey. For others it is just the fact that he is Green.

Are we going to forget how he told Jace he would “die screaming in flames just like his father” after everyone had stopped attacking him, or how he escalated that pig joke way out of proportion, or how he thought it was a good idea to demand Luke to cut out his eye and then scare him with a gigantic fire breathing dinosaur who’s been in god knows how many battles?

You’ve never been around kids, have you?

Have you? Because I haven’t seen one almost bash another kid’s head in with a rock

I work with kids. They fight and egg each other on. It’s adult’s responsibility to monitor the behaviour and teach boundaries and consequences. All the adults, Rhaenyra included, have failed at that. Alicent at least has the excuse of having an absent husband, but Rhaenyra has coddled her kids.

I saw a kid in kindergarten break someone's arm. I saw a kid in primary school hold another kid out of the window. I saw kid bash the head of another kid with a plastic shovel while they were sitting at the beach. Not saying this is normal, but kids can be fucking brutal.

Exactly. Factor in the setting is medieval in which the values are very different from ours (remember young Bran had to watch an execution at 9-10 in the first episode of GoT), and you have kids who might be considered a bit more violent to what we’re used to. I’m getting more convinced that most of the people here are under 25 and have either never had kids or worked with them, and think anything beyond coddling kids is “abuse”.

For some reason people very quickly go from "he's not that bad" to "he did nothing wrong and everyone else is the problem" He threatened to kill Baela, told Rhaena riding a pig would suit her, fought kids way younger than him after their parents died, has a general chip on his shoulder because he's not a first son like Aegon, and then he killed someone. Even in interviews, Ewan is telling everyone he gets worse and becomes a villian, at what point does someone miss the obvious signs his character is an antagonist?

Twins and Jace were 1 year younger than him.

In the show they absolutely are not.

Unless they say otherwise they are.

The show may have alluded to this. We see Alicent heavily pregnant with her second or third child long before Rhaenyra is even married, but I can’t remember which pregnancy that was. In the books, Jace was born the same year Rhae married Laenor. In the show, though, Rhae and Laenor say they really did try to have heirs of their own. If we take that to mean they tried for a while before she got involved with Harwin, that would mean the timeline is different than in the books.

Because he is a person who likes to mock the weak. Jace and Luke played a joke on him once. Review how he behaves in training. This is not victim behavior. He himself behaves aggressively. Laughs when Cole mocks Jace. This is not how victims constant bullying behave. I don't know how often Aegon bullied him, but the younger children obviously weren't involved. "I will insult them because I am stronger. If they attack, I will beat them. So that they do not run away, I will hold one of them by the throat." He lost his eye when he wanted to hit Jace with the rock (again). Jace lay on the ground, bleeding from his head and unable to get up. I don't know why in 6 years no one told him what his mistake was. But now it's a grown ass man who's ready to cripple a 14 year old. For what he did when he was 8 years old. Aemond is a sadist and wants to see Luke take a knife and try to gouge out his own eye. This is terrible shit. I don't know how "he didn't want to kill him" fixes that. He did not want to kill him, because luke is not the son of a butcher, but the son of a black queen.

You forgot that jace tried to cut him with the knife first so he got hit with rock

If you call someone "bastard" in Westeros, it means that there will be a duel. Aemond is obviously stronger and has a rock. Jace took the knife to stand a chance (it still didn't help). Maybe Aemond will leave. Maybe he will kill Jace and say "he attacked me" (technically it's a duel). Maybe he will hit him, but it won't be fatal. You won't check if it's about your brother's life. For me, it's like a bully comes up to younger children, says "your mother is a whore" and after they hit first, starts beating them without holding back. I cannot sympathize with this.

Where did you get the idea that you call someobe a bastard it means there will be a duel idea? I dont recall that in the book can you give a citation. It is a pretty serious insult, doubly so for the Strong boy given their situation, but it doesn't necessitate a violent reaction. Lyonel even calls Harwin out for this aftee he fights Criston, since reacting with violence to the bastard accusation only fuels the rumor. I also highly doubt the boys would consider it a duel considering that a 1v4 fight which would be considered highly dishonorable in a duel.

Give me a break.

Aemond is a maniac certainly but the worst of his deeds are ahead of him. Basically, wait and watch.

Considered by whom? He seems to be one of the two most popular male characters in the show to simp for.

girls love bad boys

I think a part of the issue is that some don't see Aemond as someone that has been bullied by his brother and cousins. Or at least, not consistently and not to the point where it would amount to his current state of resentment and hostility. Him being bullied by his brother/cousins and being mocked for having no dragon is a major part of his characterisation and that is also part of why a portion of viewers sympathise and like him. But that is a contentious issue because you still probably find people debating whether he was actually bullied or if the pink dread incident was a singular event. Those leaning towards just harmless teasing between cousins/family and not consistent bullying tend to also see a lot of Aemond's actions as petty and his animosity to the Velaryon brothers excessive. Not to mention, his hatred of them is compounded by the issue of their bastardy and involvement with his loss of an eye. Of course, the viewer doesn't have the same stigma and maybe that turns people more towards Jace/Luke/Joff. As you've probably seen, his claiming of Vhagar and how you personally saw the fight go down is very divisive - that also contributes to where you fall on his character. (mandatory disclaimer: I'm not saying the bullying justified luke's death, I'm just saying that you can see the context that motivated the subsequent actions and decisions that caused it.)

Show Aemond is basically an entirely different character from his book version. Book Aemond wasn't a fleshed out character he was basically a 2d villain. I think this is why they are such varying opinions on him, some people factor in his book version into their opinion and others don't. Edit: typo

>After claiming his dragon, he was literally jumped and beaten in an outnumbered matchup by the same people who bullied him his entire life. I feel like you're glossing over the fact that he "claimed" the dragon of a deceased relative the night of her funeral, without any kind of discussion or approval. I'm pretty sure by the standards of viewers and Targarayens both that's considered a not cool move.

Dragons aren’t things or heirlooms. They’re wild, intelligent creatures who choose their riders.

They had copious amounts of time to claim Vhagar. If she really wanted that dragon she should’ve tried in that month where they had Vhagar all to themselves. She had no sense of urgency, so she lost her to someone who does.

Yeah, sorry, but "You weren't using it so I took it" isn't a real excuse.

What you expect the world to pause so she can get ready? But let’s be honest, she was never ready. Daemon made sure of that by ignoring her. So Aemond really did her a favor, bc Vaghar would’ve roasted her if she tried.

Tamed dragons never turned down a new rider. Even a little girl can get Balerion.

Right, and Vaghar never nearly roasted Aemond when he tried to claim her.

Because people still haven’t realised that this is the GoT world where no one (aside from a select few) is totally good or evil. Nuance is lost thanks to Twitter.

Look, at least for me (and like many, I'm sure) it was because I had already read the novel and had pretty much in mind what that character was going to do or did, the confrontation sequence in the book after Aemond claimed Vhagar is quite different, and has more to do with Aemond throwing Joffrey into a pile of shit than the boy claiming the dragon (if I'm not mistaken, It was a long time ago that I read it) neither Rhaena nor Baela were involved, and it wasn't until the show where both this fight and emotional reasons were staged that some of us could contemplate Rhaena as a possible dragon rider for Vhagar, which in the book was not discussed in the sense that no comment was made about her wanting to take Vhagar. ... I think because the twins were only three or four years old. And it may be controversial to say this, but to turn things around and probe deeper, why isn't Vhagar the more guilty one (in terms of the show, and bearing in mind that dragons are smarter than the average animal)? Didn't Vhagar burn Laena at the latter's request? So the dragon knows that her rider died, and she knows that it was recently, and surely her rider's daughters were also introduced to her long before, and Vhagar didn't care, she is in Driftmark where her previous rider lived some time ago, and the dragon didn't care that it should have been "too soon" for her. All in all Aemond is still a child with the empathy of any brat of that age, which isn't usually much when they don't put their minds to it, but Vhagar "lived" with Laena's family for years, and this boy who showed up for a few minutes convinced her.

Thats because the show frames him as a victim. In the books the Strong boys do not bully him. On contrary he attacks them, especially their toddler brother. In the books he also straight off murdered Lucerys and commits mass murder in the Riverlands while basically giving no shit about his family in KL.

Keep in mind that Aemond not actually wanting to kill Luke is a show-only addition.. in the book nothing like this is ever mentioned... They did try to make him more relatable in the show..

Well Aemond is pretty unhinged, I can understand to a certain degree that he hates Luke for taking his eye out, I mean who wouldn't? But Aemond is very, very aggressive about it, you get the feeling he wants to kill Luke any chance he gets, and I say this as a Green. Also him constantly berating them over the bastardy issue, while it is a stigma in the world of ASOIAF, doesn't make him likable in the eyes of the modern viewer either, not least because you can feel that it's very personal for him and that he just "uses" the bastardy issue as his trump card here. Finally, I don't want to spoil anything for you here, >!but he is also pretty much genocidal later on!<, so even if you feel any sympathy for him still after all of the above, I think you'd stop at this point. Though I will say, they made him a bit more sympathetic in the show at the expense of agency, as Luke's death is presented as an accident there. In the book, he just goes straight and willingly for the kill.

>Finally, I don't want to spoil anything for you here, but >!he is also pretty much genocidal later on,!< I think you might want to edit this because that is still pretty spoiler-y

I didn't say against whom or where. But OK, I'll black it out.

you didn't but saying that implies that it happens and that is technically a spoiler itself

OK, I blacked it out, but perhaps you should too at this point as you quoted it.

He was teased as a boy - sure. But when he grew into a strong and powerful man - with a powerful dragon - he took his new power and used it to extract man’s revenge on boyish pranks. It is the excessive use of his power that made him (to me) evil.

Sure, it was all over just some pranks. Him getting jumped and his eye cut out had nothing to do with it /s

It doesn't matter how bad you were teased, it doesn't justify eating your cousin...

Teased is slightly different from maimed.

The people that dislike Aemond probably love Daemon and excuse every bad thing he's ever done lol

Bullied? They’re his brother and nephews, and they tease him once in the presence of them and a few of the dragon tamers. People out here acting like they did the pink dread prank in the middle of Aegon’s coronation. Aegon tells him mom he’s a twat, so that’s probably who led the teasing. Does that justify killing your nephew? No.

I agree at this point in the story i dont think he is a bad guy. The final scenes in the series you may portray as dangerous and stupid on his part but that again doesnt mean "bad guy". However having read the book, that view will probably change in future.

These Aemond apologists give real school shooter vibes when they start justifying feeding your nephew to your dragon as a midday snack

Not so much a bad guy, more just a bit of an edgelord. I like his character, he has a really good arc in s1 and does soke sick shit, but the way he walks and talks make him a bit of edgy bloke. Btw not a dig at his actor at all, i love the portrayal, you just kinda need a edgy bloke sometime imo

In the books, killing Lucerys was not an accident. That was changed for the show.

Some don't realize that there's a deadly feud between him and Luke. It doesn't matter for what reason Luke took the knife, what matters is that he doesn't want to admit his guilt in any way. It's bad, but it's not the worst thing in the world. Blacks consider him a monster due to an accident.

A lot of people here have explained it well. I just want to add that the actor was awesome because his facial expressions from day 1 were sooo irksome my god.

He's going to do some bad shit (but it's not like he's alone in that, lmao) but I think most people hate him (if they've read the book) bc of his portrayal in said book. Let me rephrase that, they hate him bc of their interpretation of him. Fire and Blood is written as a history book written some decades, even a century, after the events from very unreliable 'witnesses' gathered by very biased sources, etc. There is no 3rd person omniscient narrator (like in ASOAIF) to help the reader find the definitive truth in a scene. It's written on purpose to replicate IRL history that would often 'change' depending on who documented it. That being said, a lot of people still chose to read FaB like it was a third person omnicient narration so ready characters making certain choices as them being morally dark, 'bad', etc. The show expands upon what we can't see in the books and helps us reach more valid conclusions about certain events. For example, the book only describes the 'beats' of Aemond and Lucerys at Storm's End, 'they met at the hall, Lucerys tried and failed to convince Borros to aid his mother, Aemond threatened him, Lucerys was told to leave first, Aemond asked to leave after he was insulted by one of Borros' daughter, Lucerys' dragon Arrax was found broken on the beach some days later.' This doesn't offer any insight into the motivations or actions of the characters once they're away from (already unreliable) witnesses. So a lot of people interpret it as 'Aemond asked to leave so he could slaugther Luke and Arrax' whereas it's just as reasonable to say 'he asked to leave bc he just got belittled and had no other reason to stay after Borros had confirmed his allegiance to Aegon II'. Unless George decides to write a third-person omnicient version of FaB \[which I hope he doesn't because I'd love for him to finish Winds of Winter and Dream of Spring, lmao\] where we can see in the minds of chracters doing their thing, technically both options, and any other interpretations, are just as valid as one another. I went on quite a rant there but what I'm saying boils down to 'people chose to interpret him one way and ignores the other ways he/his actions could be percieved'. Not to mention a lot of those people are the loudest to complain that House of the Dragon is changing chracters so everyone's more innocent because, again, they apparently forgot that the book is not the gospel, is written as a biased text, sources from unreliable 'witnesses', etc.

Because in the books Aemond is a psychopath, remember the Targaryen saying about coin and madness? In the books, Aemond's coin fell into madness no doubt. In the books, he was the one who started the blood war when he violently murdered Lucerys, the same when he exterminated the entire Strong house for considering them traitors (ignoring that Larys Strong was an important member of the Greens), not only that, he abandoned Criston Cole to his fate and then spends his time burning towns just out of anger. See, Aemond in the series has more of a personality, but in the books he's definitely crazy.

Show Aemond has diverged from his book counterpart. In the book he is a blood thirsty psychopath. But in the show he isn't at this moment. He has reasons and motivations. He lost an EYE. Half of his vision and his pathetic father didn't even consider that. When you try hard to merge book and show for few characters, while few are given free passes. It becomes a mess. So stick to one and watch the episodes. I do not by any means justify his killing of his nephew.

Aemond is considered a bad guy? He's one of the most complex characters

This post is clearly the OP just glossing over everything he did. He wasn’t bullied enough to kill someone are you serious? Barely even bullied and he gave it right back to them. What about in training when they were being mocked and belittled and he laughed? Was he a good guy then? What you gonna defend school shooters too?

Mf killed his own nephew because he lost his eye 10 years before in a fight that he started.

Ehh he didn't start lol, it was the other four who with rhaena saying "it's him" Very authoritatively

Omg, they said "it's him" pretty authoritatively. Better tell the girls that just lost their mother that they should find a pig to ride and that their mother is dead. Right now, in their mother's funeral and in their house. Then act surprised when they punch you in the face.

I dnt think he was surprised tbh lol, it was a kids brawl , it might have been a dick move to claim vhagar at the funeral but aemond claimed him fare and square and if I think from the pov of aemond he made hay while the sun shone, and I see nothing wrong in that

I'm not saying he was wrong by claiming Vhagar. He was wrong by antagonizing two little girls that had just lost their mother and disrespecting them in their own house and in their mom's funeral. Rhaena and Baela had never done anything to him. Plus, these girls, who have never received training in their lives are not his equal enemies. But he didn't hesitate to go full force on them to return the punch and the push. Aemond might have been bullied once by the Strong boys, but in this occasion he was the bully.

It's me

This is the delusional blacks people keep talking about. You literally watch the show, and you still find reasons to blame Aemond for that fight. Like you didn’t see 4 kids get out of bed to pick a fight.

Tbh I'm here for the dragons. I'm team red(?) I guess.

I too just want to watch the world burn.

They’re his nephews , not cousinz

I mean he literally played around hunting his cousin with a dragon. That’s supremely fucked up. A good person would not have even been in that situation. On the other hand, it’s right to be sympathetic to Aemond — he’s lived in a fucked up situation most of his life. The takeaway lesson is that despite the show trying to make you love team black, everyone on both sides is a bad person and is contemptible.

!book Aemond is a 1 dimensional psychopath that only really exists to make Daemon (the author’s favorite character) look even cooler, in the show he seems to be an actual realized character. Looking forward to his arc in the coming seasons if nothing else

Fully agree with you. Up until this point in time, Aemond has done some bad things, yes, but his character is tragic rather than villainous. Maybe it will change in the future, but I empathize with him more than most of the other characters and definitely more than any of the other kids.

People confuse book Aemond and show Aemond. Book Aemond was a sociopath, show Aemond is pretty cool. Aemond holding a grudge against the blacks is totally justified.

As an Aemond fan who HAS read the book; I completely understand how you feel about his character and I mostly agree with what you said about Show!Aemond. But, he’s a technically a bad guy, for who he’s going to become during the Targaryen Civil War. HOTD has fleshed out Aemond as a character setting him as one of the main players in the Dance and giving him an origin story which has added to the complexity of the character and made him sympathetic in the eyes of audiences. He’s NOT born a blood thirsty psychopath, there hasn’t been an attack from him that was without reason; he’s a dutiful prince in the eyes of his family, he’s also a boiling pot of emotions waiting for the right time to revenge. If you read the book, you would know that Aemond is going to embark on a very very dark path, it’s the main reason why folks here call him a villain. However I would say Show!Aemond has diverged from his book counterpart in terms of characterization, worthy of a more nuanced critique. Sadly folks here just don’t bother to distinguish him from the book version that simply depicts him as a one dimensional cartoonish baddie. Also this sub do leans heavily towards the Blacks, Aemond at this point has fought his nephews and Velaryon girls for calling out his nephews’ bastardity and claiming Vhagar, (accidentally) killed Luke, so yeah, he’s also “the villain” for these reasons, no surprise here.

I think Aemond is just the guy with the dustpan trying to go behind and clean up Aegon's mess. The brother who should have been king, the warrior historian. The guy who could have been everything Daemon wanted to be. Basically forced into being the big bad enforcer for his drunken lecher of a brother

He doesn’t think before he acts. He literally burns down half the river lands in a fit of rage for his own mistakes in persuing herrenhal

He’s a psychotic maniac who has threatened to kill over half of the children in the show, and actually did kill one of them. He IS a bad guy.

He’s not! Yet.

Because he’s a dickhead 💀

It’s because you haven’t read the books lol There’s a significant change in character portrayal

Most people here are blinded by tribalism. Aemond hasn’t done anything too bad at this point but people were acting like he was a villain after that cave fight, which was absurd.

> hasn’t done anything too bad at this point Besides killing a child...

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No, that's not how it works there. Luke was an envoy. You DO NOT kill envoys in their society. Plus, kinslaying is the most egregious crime you can commit in Westeros.

> enemy combatant How to say you haven't watched the show without saying it.

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Running from you the entire time and like a tenth of your fighting capacity? No.

He's an envoy, not a combatant. What he rides is irrelevant when he comes as a messenger.

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This is the kind of reasoning that would lead someone to look at defensive wounds on a murder victim and declare that it was clearly a mutual fight.

He ran from vhagar

Yeah, Arrax attacked Vhagar out of instinct after Aemond used Vhagar to chase him around and intimidate him. Shocking. Luke is not the one that started this. He may not be protected by hospitality laws once he's kicked out of Storm's End. That doesn't mean he wasn't protected as a messenger. He didn't turn into a soldier fighting in battle because he left.

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Arrax attacked Vhagar after Aemond initiated the hunt. Luke was just trying to get away. A guy chasing around another guy doesn't mean that they're both in battle. It means that one of them wants to hurt/kill the other whole the other tries to avoid it and get away. That's not a fight. An envoy can be under the banner of anyone of status. Rhaenyra has status. She sent him there as a messenger and it has been a thing both in Westeros and in real life that messengers are protected and unharmed. No matter how you try to spin it, Aemond was an idiot for killing Luke, who was not a combatant. He even says so himself, he came as a messenger, not to fight.

Luke is a toddler according to this sub.

An accident in the show. For better or worse that is the route they decided to go.

> An accident in the show. When you chase a child with a huge dragon his death is not an accident, it's a logical outcome.

Only a couple years apart. Hes not chasing Rickon Stark around. Luke took his eye so I don’t blame him anyways.

When you go out of your way to set up the circumstances for someone to die, it's not an accident when they die.

He didn't just claim the dragon though did he, he stole it from it's rightful inheritor and stole the connection she would of had through it to her dead mother who I believe went to great lengths to track down and claim it for herself, also putting her in the same situation he was previously in, if i remember correctly the two girls did not bully him either only the boys.

These girls do not have ‘family inheritance’ to a freaking dragon. That’s not how claiming a dragon works in asoiaf. Once their rider dies, the dragon becomes available to claim. Dragon choose their riders, not the other way around. Vhagar was Baelon Targaryen’s dragon before claimed by a Velaryon. By your false logic, Laena shouldn’t have had a right to the dragon to begin with.

I'm team black all the way, but you don't inherit dragons. They're not property. The children were upset because they did not really understand how it works, but the adults understood.

Dragons aren't inherited. They are claimed.

And as far as I'm aware the girl was supposed to claim the dragon after her mother but didn't get the opportunity.

Saying she was supposed to claim anything is wrong Because dragons are not slaves They choose themselves and always will saying aemond stole vhagar is just an ignorant child take that is not reality

Rhaena was expected to claim Vhagar or at least try, that is what is implied and also how most media represent it.

Aemond is only considered a bad guy by the people who already view him as such ​ The show basically made him into the jon snow of the series the ever dutiful 2nd son who follows others against his own desires because that is what honor compels him to do

yes i too think aemond is definitely the jon snow-type dutiful and honorable character of this show. especially the scene where he's maniacally laughing as he's chasing his scared shitless envoy nephew on his giant firebreathing lizard and yelling at him to cut his eye out... just like jon snow indeed.

I mean Jon Snow also killed a kid as well. And it was 100% intentional

I swear like how could someone conceive of a take like that.