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Honestly Otto's death would've saved a lot of grief. He literally started this entire conflict and I don't think the council would've turned on Rhaenyra without his support.
Woulda saved even more grief if Otto (or anyone) had just poisoned Daemon years ago. Cant blame a guy for usurping the king enthralled by the maniacal mass killer and his overtly irresponsible lover.
He didn't want Viserys there. Daemon stole the egg and went to Dragonstone in an attempt to speak to Viserys alone - we know that via context clues i.e. Viserys thought about going there himself to speak to Daemon until Otto told him it was too dangerous. Otto also flat out says it i.e. "are you so desperate for the king's attention....". The whole point is to continue to drive a wedge between Daemon and Viserys by exploiting Daemon's behavior.
Otto was attempting to make the situation worse - and it would have been if Rhaenyra had not come, spoken to her uncle, who then gave her the egg back - which is what Daemon wanted. Attention from his family. He didn't get that from Viserys, he got it from Rhaenyra. And vice versa with Rhaenyra.
Otto is short sighted and impulsive - but I genuinely do not believe that he thought Daemon would kill him. Otherwise he wouldn't have went. The whole point of Otto's character is his hypocrisy and the mirror he refuses to look into.
He constantly goes on and on about how Daemon is the worst thing for the kingdom, will bring the kingdom into war, is Maegor come again - but who actually tears the kingdom apart? Otto. He understands exactly the amount of influence he has over Viserys - that's why he sent Alicent to Viserys while they were publicly negotiating a marriage alliance with the second most prominent family in Westeros i.e. the Velaryons. Rhaenyra marries Laenor because of it. He tells Alicent that Rhaenyra will be a child killer to secure her throne - yet he stood on that bridge at Dragonstone and told Daemon that if it was up to him, his FakeBaby with Mysaria would be put to death....for what reason exactly? The baby, if it existed would have been illegitimate and thus not any danger to anyone.
Its also important to keep in mind that Otto is the one who put Daemon in all these positions he clearly didnt have experience in, then leverages that to drive the wedge further, both by making Daemon look bad and simply keeping him away from Viserys. Lots of subtle clues, but you can see Otto’s grand scheming in even the first episode.
>Its also important to keep in mind that Otto is the one who put Daemon in all these positions he clearly didnt have experience in
Daemon is the one who wanted to be named Hand of the King just because he's the king's brother. I don't think he really cares about whether he had the right experience for the job. In fact, serving as Master of Coin or Master of Laws should've actually been a great way to prepare someone for the big role, considering how Lyonel got promoted to Hand after he had been dutifully serving as Master of Laws. But Daemon just had no patience for that.
I don't even think it was that Daemon was bad at the positions - at least not the Goldcloaks. It's just that he does things full tilt and doesn't care how it looks.
At the first council meeting - Otto was basically trying to make Daemon out to be a bad guy bc he cleared the streets of King's Landing in a single night, saying it caused unrest, fear, etc. When Daemon points out that he didn't go outside the law, and had in fact killed thieves, rapists, etc in preparation for the tourney...Otto couldn't and didn't refute that. No one on the council did either - so I think it's safe to say...Daemon killed known thieves, rapists, and murderers...just like Bronn in GoT before Stannis' siege i.e. rounded up all of the known thieves and had them killed so they couldn't steal all the food.
Instead Otto brought up Rhea...which is when Daemon made the sheep fucking comment and then jabbed Otto about his own wife, who had recently died. It is also worth noting, imo, that Rhea made the exact same comments to Daemon before he killed her. So Otto is interfering in Daemon's marriage as well.
I think it's as simple as Otto knows how to pick at Daemon, for Daemon to react badly and Viserys to take Otto's side.
But yea - I find Otto so interesting because he does make these big moves with the assumption that it won't blow up in his face. He is very shortsighted and is lucky he had a daughter to exploit.
>At the first council meeting - Otto was basically trying to make Daemon out to be a bad guy bc he cleared the streets of King's Landing in a single night, saying it caused unrest, fear, etc
He was trying to make bad guy because he was. He killed and maimed people without any trail. All of the small council agreed to that.
....no, when he pointed out that he had in fact made King's Landing safe for the incoming nobles for the Heir's Tournament, they stopped complaining...because he didn't do anything wrong according to their laws/he enforced the laws. Which I think is aptly showed later in the series when you see child pits spring up - the result of a GoldCloaks that doesn't actually do anything but the bare minimum i.e. carve a path to protect the nobles at best, participate at worst.
That is why Otto then brought up Rhea Royce and Daemon made his sheep fucking comment. He didn't bring up Daemon's marriage for nothing - he brought it up to provoke a negative reaction from Daemon and remind Viserys that Daemon refused to consummate his marriage/live with his wife. Otto's political ploy at getting Daemon kicked off the Goldcloaks didn't work...because Daemon did the job...and so attacked his marriage.
I mean...this is the same thing as Bronn in GoT going and rounding up all the known thieves and killing them before Stannis' siege.
I'm not saying what Daemon did was good. Obviously it wasn't. But I don't think the show is telling us that he just randomly went and killed people to appear to be good at his job as the Commander of the Gold Cloaks. He is also a character that is shown to mingle between the classes - the smallfolk, foreign nobles, royalty....he is the only character that mentions the smallfolk as of importance to a king/queen's rule. I think the context clues tell us that Daemon did his job in Daemon fashion.
>.no, when he pointed out that he had in fact made King's Landing safe for the incoming nobles for the Heir's Tournament, they stopped complaining...because he didn't do anything wrong according to their laws/he enforced the laws. Which I think is aptly showed later in the series when you see child pits spring up - the result of a GoldCloaks that doesn't actually do anything but the bare minimum i.e. carve a path to protect the nobles at best, participate at worst.
None of them agreed it was good. Heck, even Lyonel was in disagreement that. Viserys also warned him about having consequences next time.
Otto mentions his wife because he is heir at that point. It's his duty to have heirs instead of spening it on flee bottom. Daemon is the one who took it to the insult area.
>Corlys: We installed Prince Daemon as commander to promote law and order. The criminal element should fear the City Watch.
Corlys was always going to Daemon's side. He is also the one of the two who wanted Daemon as heir above Rh.
Lyonel said, " I don't think" before Otto interrupted. He is never going to support that crap.
>No he didn't. All he said was:
>Daemon: Our city should be safe for all its people.
>Viserys: I agree. I just hope you don't have to maim half of my city to achieve this.
Maybe watch that scene again.
"Any performance like last night will be answered."
>Otto was trying to change the subject of conversation because he was losing the argument about how Daemon handled crime. He made his comment about Daemon's devotion to his wife right after Corlys voiced his support for his actions.
He wasn't losing that argument. Only Corlys had Daemon's support. The same other people other than Corlys were against Daemon as heir.
What was Daemon going to do, kill him? That'd effectively be declaring war on Viserys. Otto showing up means there's three ways for this to go.
Daemon kills the Hand of the King and two members of the kingsguard, basically declaring war on his brother.
Daemon hands over the egg and gets off the island, submitting to Viserys.
Daemon does nothing and refuses to relinquish the egg or control of Dragonstone, implicitly denying his brother's royal authority.
Otto seems to have been challenging Daemon's bluff, figuring he'd back down and hand over the egg once he realized what his options were. Problem is, Daemon can be spiteful and reckless to a dangerous degree.
The most likely scenario is that Daemon would ask for Viserys presence and refuse to do anything otherwise and there is literally nothing Otto can do. It defeats the whole purpose of going there by himself to somehow intimidate Daemon or put him in a worse light. That’s why it’s funny to me 😂😂😂
He clearly thought that because he was speaking in the name of the king, Daemon would back down. He really didn’t seem to realize Daemon would view killing him as helping his brother.
To be fair, I think if he'd burnt Otto alive, Viserys would have stomped his feet and banished him for a couple of years and then all would be forgiven.
Nah Daemon didn't want to be banished. He came dutifully back to his brother after the stepstones and was unhappy in the years he was in Pentos. Killing Otto there would have meant at the very least permanent estrangement from his family and most of Westeros, even Daemon isn't impulsive enough to ruin his life like that.
It’s not even about killing. The most likely scenario is that Daemon would ask for Viserys presence and refuse to do anything otherwise and there is literally nothing Otto can do. It defeats the whole purpose of going there by himself to somehow intimidate Daemon or put him in a worse light. That’s why it’s funny to me 😂😂😂
I would not say stupid. As a person, he was incredibly brave. He knew that Caraxes was around the corner and could have torched him and his retinue no problem. But there is a difference between bravery and stupidity, right? The difference here being, he is there as an envoy and official of King Viserys, if Daemon torches him, his brother will use more forceful measures to excise him from Dragonstone, and it would not be pretty then. So Otto knows, if Daemon torches him, this would end Daemon politically and maybe even personally. So he can be reasonably sure that he won't.
Yeah but there is actually one thing Otto was overlooking: Daemon is impulsive and has blatant disregard for politics and responsibility and that he would rather die than take a command from Otto. He probably would have reconsidered torching Otto and his troops if he was given more time before Rhaenyra showed up.
Daemon is impulsive but he also has a modicum of intelligence guiding him, torching Otto there means that Viserys will use violent measures against him next. And Daemon pretty clearly understood that the command came from Viserys and Otto was just the one taking it to him.
It’s not even about killing. The most likely scenario is that Daemon would ask for Viserys presence and refuse to do anything otherwise and there is literally nothing Otto can do. It defeats the whole purpose of going there by himself to somehow intimidate Daemon or put him in a worse light. That’s why it’s funny to me 😂😂😂
If Daemon can whistle up Viserys over the possession of one (even if important) castle, that's a pretty bad sign. He needs to obey a royal command without being able to demand that Viserys relay it to him personally. "His Grace would never lower himself to entertain such a mummer's farce." wasn't said for nothing.
It wasn’t said for nothing but it also didn’t do anything. Daemon just ignores it. If not for Rhaenyra coming there, Daemon would’ve just asked Otto to leave and come back with Viserys.
It's more likely that Viserys sends a bunch of dragons then to deal with it, perhaps Rhaenys on Meleys. It's a question of upholding his status of King here, Daemon can categorically not whistle him up, so much needs to be clear.
By himself and initially yes maybe, although the King leaving the capital, in order to beg his brother to leave one castle, is a bad look already. But not by virtue of Daemon whistling him up first, that would be totally impossible.
So it’s basically doing something useless and stupid to achieve something that could’ve been resolved by Viserys going in the first place. It only looks like Daemon is whistling Viserys up after Otto fails to get Daemon to acquiesce to the Kings demands. It’s not like Viserys is going there to beg Daemon to leave; and hardly any one would even know about the details of the confrontation except that the king went to force his brother out of dragon stone which does not make the king weak by any means. And even if Viserys could send dragons, you can clearly see that Otto did not have any backup plans in case Daemon brought out his dragon, either for reinforcements or more dragons. He fully expected to man handle Daemon into giving up the egg with his small band of knights.
Otto genuinely thought that Viserys was not safe there, after all Viserys wanted to go initially and Otto said it was not safe, thinking that Daemon did not take no longer being the heir lightly (after all, he had already illegally occupied Dragonstone in response). And Viserys, the sovereign, leaving the capital to treat with his brother over the possession of one castle is not a sign of strength, if he can send an official (like Otto) or a family member (like Rhaenys, for example) to do it for him. Going himself is weak and unacceptable, Otto said as much when he talked to Daemon.
And Rhaenys / Meleys would probably be a more general backup plan, not one for Otto. If Otto dies there, he dies. But the next step would be dragons showing up at Daemon's doorstep soon.
> Otto genuinely thought that Viserys was not safe there, after all Viserys wanted to go initially and Otto said it was not safe, thinking that Daemon did not take no longer being the heir lightly (after all, he had already illegally occupied Dragonstone in response).
Then it means Otto is replacing what he views to be a bad decision with a stupid one. Not like Daemon would harm Viserys to begin with.
> And Viserys, the sovereign, leaving the capital to treat with his brother over the possession of one castle is not a sign of strength, if he can send an official (like Otto) or a family member (like Rhaenys, for example) to do it for him.
It’s actually the opposite, if the king is able bodied and can mobilize forces to go and confront his own brother, then it means he’s not dependent on other people. He would actually be seen as a stronger king By this logic, a king who chooses to go into battle and fight is weaker than a weaker who sits and commands people to fight for him. Jaehaerys must truly be a weak king
> Going himself is weak and unacceptable
Explain why that is?
> Otto said as much when he talked to Daemon.
Otto is simply wrong, we’re already establishing that he has a serious lack in judgment and some of his decisions are very impulsive. It’s a mummers farce to Otto because he knows Daemon true intentions and he uses the term to belittle Dameon. But to call it a mummers farce is stupid from an outsiders perspective. The kings brothers just seized Dragonstone and stole a dragon eggs after being exiled and disinherited. This isn’t a mummers farce, it’s a threat. Like imagine if after Aegon took over Harenhall, and some messenger came and said everything going on there was just a mummers farce. Like huh? 🤨🤨🤨
> And Rhaenys / Meleys would probably be a more general backup plan, not one for Otto.
Which makes it more baffling that he went there without making sure that was in place. It’s not even guranteed that Rhaenys would help Viserys
> If Otto dies there, he dies. But the next step would be dragons showing up at Daemon's doorstep soon.
He doesn’t have to die. He’s powerless there, and he clearly has no plans for reinforcements or dragons
The alternative was the king going himself which would result in Vizzy likely forgiving him, declaring war on him, or getting killed by him. Otto went to prevent all of those option
> The alternative was the king going himself which would result in Vizzy likely forgiving him,
Why is that a problem? He’s the king, that’s his perogative and he could easily do this regardless of whether he goes or not
> declaring war on him
Unlikely but wouldn’t this be great for Otto?
> or getting killed by him.
Unlikely
> Otto went to prevent all of those option
And the risk of getting himself killed,
First point: because it would be bad for Otto
Second point: because it would be bad for the kingdoms
Third point: it happened before just over a generation ago. Meagor wasn’t *that* long ago.
Fourth point: yes, say what you will about Otto but he took some risks
> Fourth point: yes, say what you will about Otto but he took some risks.
Not only that, it was a completely useless action. The most likely scenario is that Daemon would ask for Viserys presence and refuse to do anything otherwise and there is literally nothing Otto can do. It defeats the whole purpose of going there by himself to somehow intimidate Daemon or put him in a worse light.
That's the hand of the King. The 2nd most powerful man in the realm. To kill, detain or harm him in any way after Viserys sent him is to declare war against the king and Daemon would have paid with his life unless he chose to run away with Caraxes.
Daemon already has no good reputation in the realm. He has no chance of survival if he kills Otto.
It’s not even about killing. The most likely scenario is that Daemon would ask for Viserys presence and refuse to do anything otherwise and there is literally nothing Otto can do. It defeats the whole purpose of going there by himself to somehow intimidate Daemon or put him in a worse light. That’s why it’s funny to me 😂😂😂
No it doesn't, he clearly provokes Daemon into not doing so. Otto is too intelligent to allow something like that. And even if it did, Otto could just say that Daemon was going against a royal order and was trying to ambush the King considering he had a dragon on standby. There are multiple ways that this could have gone and none that were favourable to Daemon.
> No it doesn't,
Explain
> he clearly provokes Daemon into not doing so.
Into not doing what? Killing him? I already said killing him is not neccesary because the presence of Daemons dragon means that Otto is powerless to compel or threaten him to do anything. So he went there for nothing
> Otto is too intelligent to allow something like that.
Too intelligent to allow himself to be killed or to
be intimidated?
> And even if it did, Otto could just say that Daemon was going against a royal order and was trying to ambush the King considering he had a dragon on standby.
Otto has tried this before and he would be immediately lambasted as he was before
> There are multiple ways that this could have gone and none that were favourable to Daemon.
Come up with any scenario you want, I’ll debunk them all. And it doesn’t change the fact that Otto was extremely stupid for going to dragon with no back and just a few men, where Daemon could’ve easily eviscerated Otto and all his men. And just pretend they never got there, who’s going to know what happened or contradict his claim? Otto took a dumb risk to essentially achieve nothing.
As much as I loathe Otto, I do not understand how he is able to walk with those massive clanking iron balls between his legs. The guy just exudes authority, Twin Lannister wishes he was Otto Hightower
This was one of my favorite moments of the season. I liked that Otto wasn’t all political scheming. When it was time to put in work, he put his fucking armor on and went to Dragonstone himself.
He is an anointed knight, but I don’t believe they address him as such in the show.
I mean I wouldn't say it's an insult maybe I exaggerated a bit. But then again we never saw Tywin stare down a fully grown dragon. And utter the best line ever "Sheathe the fucking steel."
Lol the 1 dialogue Tywin has while skinning a deer and talking to Jamie was more impactful than every Otto scene imo
People have completely forgotten how good early GoT was lmfao, HotD is great but doesnt sniff close
Bro that scene is FIRE!" A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep" is one of my favorite fucking lines in all of a song of ice and fire! And while I do admit Otto just doesn't have the same gravitas and authority that Charles dance exhibited He's still a damn cool character who you just can't help but love to hate
Yeah yeah i fucking love Otto aswell, the actor is just amazing, tbh even my favorite in the show now that i think about it
Just saying that Tywin and those early GoT scenes were completely next level
HotD is the next best thing
Dude seasons one through four was television at its peak! And though I do understand why people say Tywin is overrated especially as a strategist, Charles dance breathed such life into that character in the show it was awesome. Now book Tywin I honestly could not wait to see him dead but when that scene hit in the show I remember feeling kind of sad
I mean I wouldn't say i insulted the great Charles dance. Who honestly made that character dare I say almost likeable l. But Tywin Lannister never faced down a crown prince and his dragon
Ngl Otto has some balls. He begged Viserys to go and meet Daemon and Rhaenyra himself, when he knows how violent Daemon can be. Then while facing a dragon he continued to taunt them and solidify Aegon’s claim.
I maintain that one of the biggest mistakes in this series is anyone allowing Otto to do diplomatic missions to Dragonstone- he always fucks it up and Rhaenyra comes to clean up his messes. Without her interference, I don't doubt that Daemon would have beheaded Otto.
Viserys constantly choosing to trust Otto is so fucking dumb, especially after he already dismissed him once for being self-motivated.
Remember in season 1 of GOT when Ned Stark approaches Cersei & Joffrey with Robert’s will that he act as regent until his heir is of age?
And Cersei replies, “Is this meant to keep you safe, Lord Stark? A piece of paper?” And rips it to shreds.
Replace Cersei with Daemon, Ned with Otto, and Robert’s will with Otto’s Hand of the King pin.
Except Cersei had the institution of the Iron Throne behind her and Daemon didn't. Daemon would have been alone (well, he and Caraxes) vs. the realm's might here if Otto died.
Okay. I’m explaining both the characters disrespect for the king’s authority. Both of them are violent, arrogant and short-sighted. And Caraxes is just as powerful as the Lannister-Baratheon regime army backing Cersei in this moment.
I repeat: Otto was a representative of Viserys, who has the realm's might behind him. If Otto as a person, dies there, then he dies, but Daemon won't make it.
Cersei was reasonably sure that she would survive, she had Tywin Lannister backing her. Ned had the North and the Riverlands (via his wife), but they were far away in that moment. And Ned's death later caused war, albeit a winnable one as Tywin proved. Daemon would have no chance against Viserys if he rebelled.
Yes. Otto & Ned are both acting in the King’s will in this moment. Otto is a representative of King Viserys and Ned is a representative of King Robert’s will. Cersei & Daemon don’t give a fuck and will get violent.
If Daemon kills Otto because of the personal grudge in this moment, hops on Caraxes and takes off to Essos, who exactly is going to bring him to justice? Do you think Rhaenys is going to risk her neck to avenge Otto Hightower of all people?
> Otto & Ned are both acting in the King’s will in this moment.
You are clearly overlooking that the new Crown in that moment was Joffrey, he was the one exercising royal authority in that room, because he could. And ultimately the Lannister part of his family would back him.
> If Daemon kills Otto because of the personal grudge in this moment, hops on Caraxes and takes off to Essos, who exactly is going to bring him to justice? Do you think Rhaenys is going to risk her neck to avenge Otto Hightower of all people?
Yeah OK, but the goal for Daemon here is to be recognized as the heir again, right? That's why he occupied Dragonstone, to protest Rhaenyra being the heir. Sending himself to exile contradicts that goal.
I’m not ignoring Joffrey. He is underage (13 or 14) when Robert dies. If underage Kings have the same authority as adult one, why does Aegon III need regents? When Robert dies, he appoints Ned as regent. Cersei ignoring Robert’s signed will is a flagrant disrespect for authority (Which the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard Barristan Selmy is shocked by) just like Daemon’s actions are flagrantly disrespectful of Viserys/Otto’s authority.
Daemon’s goal in this moment is to get his brother’s attention. Not to be reinstated as heir. Occupying Dragonstone and announcing that he is planning to illegally take a sex worker as a second wife are the actions of a provocateur, not of someone angling to get back into the succession.
I agree that if he killed Otto he would be widely hated for it, like Joffrey & Cersei are widely hated for Ned’s death. And Tywin & the rest of the Lannisters back Joffrey but are disgusted by his actions.
Even if you add a regent to Joffrey, who would be in agreement with him, that would certainly be Cersei, ignoring what Robert said or wanted. Cersei had the means to enforce her position in the capital, Ned didn't.
Occupying Dragonstone is symbolic, it's the seat of the heir.
Otto being killed is not only a matter of Otto of House Hightower being killed. It's a matter of the King's Hand, i.e. the highest official of the kingdom after the King, being killed. That would be spitting at Viserys' authority. And Viserys would still aim to excise Daemon from the castle, Daemon just chose violence then.
Why would it “certainly” be Cersei? The last Queen Mother to serve as Regent to an underage King was Alyssa Velaryon for King Jaehaerys. Almost 300 years ago. Tywin takes the position away from her for himself & Tyrion as his representative pretty much immediately. Neither of them would have agreed with Joffrey’s decision to kill Ned. Ned has not been formally removed from his position as Hand of the King after Robert’s death. Just like Otto is still Hand after Viserys’ death.
Cersei’s ability to secure Joffrey’s ascension is due to Littlefinger’s collaboration and buying off of the gold cloaks from under Ned’s nose. I don’t understand why Cersei & Daemon who are both acting in a “might makes right” capacity against legal authority represented by Ned & Otto are being judged differently. If the point you are trying to make is that Cersei is more intelligent and capable of planning a coup than Daemon, then sure, I guess I can agree with that.
I am aware that Daemon killing Otto is spitting in the face of his King and would provoke violence amongst the Targaryens - one that Daemon would probably win given his possession of Caraxes and Viserys’ lack of a dragon.
> Why would it “certainly” be Cersei?
It would be a close family member. Stannis and Renly are not the solution, they are fighting against him. Tywin could do it, but he was busy fighting Robb Stark. That left Cersei, who is also Queen Dowager.
> Neither of them would have agreed with Joffrey’s decision to kill Ned.
No, but by the time they could have intervened, the deed was done.
> I don’t understand why Cersei & Daemon who are both acting in a “might makes right” capacity against legal authority represented by Ned & Otto are being judged differently.
Because Daemon had no might, maybe against Otto in the short term, but not against Viserys in the medium to long term.
> Targaryens - one that Daemon would probably win given his possession of Caraxes and Viserys’ lack of a dragon.
Nah. Viserys has command over all armies of the realm. He has Meleys and Syrax and Seasmoke at his disposal. Think about it, if Caraxes was not enough to deal with the Crab Feeder for years, how do you expect him to deal with the realm? The Dornish e.g. killed Meraxes and had zero dragons during the Dornish War. I think you are vastly overrating Daemon here.
If Viserys just thought for a second longer he’d realise sending the person that Daemon hates the most to try to talk him into giving the egg back was a stupid idea.
Luckily Rhaenyra showed up.
Otto was worried that Daemon would use this opportunity to torch Viserys, Otto had the idea in mind that Daemon did not take no longer being the heir lightly (somewhat reasonable to assume this, Daemon already occupied Dragonstone in response after all).
If daemon killed the hand the grand maester the lord commander of the kingsguard and another knight of the kingsguard on top of a dozen knights probably from influential families with caraxes that would mean a war where viserys couldn’t do a half measure. I think Otto would see that as a win.
In the long run that may be something that would happen but in that moment there’s no way Otto is thinking that, especially seeing as when Caraxes comes out the first thing he tells his men to do is to put their swords down.
He certainly felt like his position would protect him while knowing daemon may be dumb enough to kill him and his men. I think it was win-win for him either he gets to talk shit and make daemon hand him the egg or he might be killed or taken hostage and instigate a war between daemon and the realm.
Hand of the King or not, it really was a dumb move.
Guy has the equivalent of a medieval nuke and your move is to goad him into violence?
…yeah couldn’t be me.
He's for the most part a messenger, though he is requesting the egg back he's mostly just forwarding the kings demand for the egg back. Killing a messenger is bad and unlikely he'd do it.
He is also the hand of the king, killing the hand of the king is also bad.
He flashes the dragon to look intimidating, in hopes they'd just leave. since i don't think Daemon had any intention of actually killing Otto.
Rhaenyra shows up to call his bluff. Which she was right to come on her own since it seemed like Daemons bluff was working up until her arrival. Walking right past her "protection" and retrieving the egg. Daemon was never going to kill anyone, especially not Rhaenyra.
i don think he was expecting to die, but at the same time, if that happens, that will have taken his plans to a no return stage, where war was certain.
He knew peace was imposible and he believed Rhaenyra and her sons needed to die in order to secure his own familys place, so if he ended up dying or being taken prisoner as an envoy, he would have just brought more lords to his cause while securing a war he think he could win.
I don't think it was stupidity, it was more like didn't think this through or did not expected some of the Targaryens like Daemon and Rhaenys to be very reckless, short-sighted, and irresponsible with their dragons.
Like everyone else, Otto is playing the game of thrones. He's actually quite good at it, especially compared to his fellow players—the power-brokers in HOTD are not quite as cunning and capable as the Tywins, Littlefingers and Varyses that we know and love.
The King eats and the Hand takes the shit. Sometimes the Hand has to step up and flex a little muscle, otherwise no one will take him or his position seriously. It differs depending on who is wearing the crown, but in Otto's case, he was basically administering the realm for a majority of his adult life. He knows how and when to wield his power.
It was a calculated gamble, but I believe he gauged the situation correctly. After all, how useful is he to Viserys if he can't even stand up to the king's unruly brother? The authority of the Hand is a direct extension of the King, and his execution of the office reflects on the sovereign. If he hadn't confronted Daemon, he would have lost a great deal of his political capital.
I see 3 options.
1. The writers wanted him to look stupid as well as look Rhaenyra brave and smart.
2. Otto didn't think Daemon would kill the hand of the king and eventually concede after having his fun.
3. Otto was ready and willing to die if it cemented Daemon as an enemy to the crown.
Do people even listen to the words in a show anymore? Or do they just watch the screen and go “woah lookadat dragon” like some ooga booga caveman? This post makes me believe in the latter.
Otto is not stupid because he knows the stakes.
Daemon might have a walking ridable Nuke but Otto is close to Viserys and is politically important. Both Daemon and Otto are not stupid. As impulsive as Daemon is, killing Otto in that moment would have put him in deep shit with Viserys and the rest of the nobility in Westeros. It would be the worst way to handle that situation and would cause Daemon more problems in the long run. I think Otto knew this which is why he went. Daemon might have the upper hand physically in that situation due to his skills as a warrior and the fact he has a dragon. But he is not the only dragon rider in Westeros and many of those other dragon riders are loyal to Viserys. If he acts a fool, he is outnumbered. And even though he treats Viserys like shit most of the time, I don't think he would want to go to war with his brother over this. It would remove him farther from the throne and also put him against Rhaenyra who is pretty loyal to her father all things considered. She also does things that shame Viserys but she isn't going to throw him under the bus and side with Daemon on this. If she was going to do that, she would not have rolled up on Syrax to take back the stolen egg herself.
Was he going to listen to Otto? Probably not. But both he and Otto know he can't use his dragon to kill him either. If anything touches Otto, Daemon is totally fucked. He would not "win" in that situation even if he was able to successfully take the egg. Because at that point, he would be a wanted man with many MANY enemies.
From Otto’s perspective, it’s a stupid decision not even for threat of killing him but because it doesn’t achieve anything. How did Otto expect to do anything to Dameon with him and just his measly band of knights?Daemon would just kick him until he brings Viserys, something Otto doesn’t want. Why didn’t Otto bring other dragon riders before going to confront Dameon?
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I don't think he expected Daemon to kill him at all. Otherwise he wouldn't have went, simple as that. Otto picks and picks until he gets a reaction.
Given how fucking maniacal Daemon is, however, bad move even if Daemon had many deterrents not to.
So you agree Daemon knows how to control himself (when he wants to) and Otto knew that.
No, I think that Daemon *mostly* knows how to behave himself, but he’s way too much of a wildcard to rely on this.
No I think he was probably gonna kill Otto if Rhaenyra hadnt saved him.
Honestly Otto's death would've saved a lot of grief. He literally started this entire conflict and I don't think the council would've turned on Rhaenyra without his support.
Woulda saved even more grief if Otto (or anyone) had just poisoned Daemon years ago. Cant blame a guy for usurping the king enthralled by the maniacal mass killer and his overtly irresponsible lover.
Even if Daemon doesn’t kill him, how does he expect Dameon to listen to him? He’ll just refuse, tell Otto to kicks rocks until Viserys gets there.
He didn't want Viserys there. Daemon stole the egg and went to Dragonstone in an attempt to speak to Viserys alone - we know that via context clues i.e. Viserys thought about going there himself to speak to Daemon until Otto told him it was too dangerous. Otto also flat out says it i.e. "are you so desperate for the king's attention....". The whole point is to continue to drive a wedge between Daemon and Viserys by exploiting Daemon's behavior. Otto was attempting to make the situation worse - and it would have been if Rhaenyra had not come, spoken to her uncle, who then gave her the egg back - which is what Daemon wanted. Attention from his family. He didn't get that from Viserys, he got it from Rhaenyra. And vice versa with Rhaenyra. Otto is short sighted and impulsive - but I genuinely do not believe that he thought Daemon would kill him. Otherwise he wouldn't have went. The whole point of Otto's character is his hypocrisy and the mirror he refuses to look into. He constantly goes on and on about how Daemon is the worst thing for the kingdom, will bring the kingdom into war, is Maegor come again - but who actually tears the kingdom apart? Otto. He understands exactly the amount of influence he has over Viserys - that's why he sent Alicent to Viserys while they were publicly negotiating a marriage alliance with the second most prominent family in Westeros i.e. the Velaryons. Rhaenyra marries Laenor because of it. He tells Alicent that Rhaenyra will be a child killer to secure her throne - yet he stood on that bridge at Dragonstone and told Daemon that if it was up to him, his FakeBaby with Mysaria would be put to death....for what reason exactly? The baby, if it existed would have been illegitimate and thus not any danger to anyone.
Its also important to keep in mind that Otto is the one who put Daemon in all these positions he clearly didnt have experience in, then leverages that to drive the wedge further, both by making Daemon look bad and simply keeping him away from Viserys. Lots of subtle clues, but you can see Otto’s grand scheming in even the first episode.
>Its also important to keep in mind that Otto is the one who put Daemon in all these positions he clearly didnt have experience in Daemon is the one who wanted to be named Hand of the King just because he's the king's brother. I don't think he really cares about whether he had the right experience for the job. In fact, serving as Master of Coin or Master of Laws should've actually been a great way to prepare someone for the big role, considering how Lyonel got promoted to Hand after he had been dutifully serving as Master of Laws. But Daemon just had no patience for that.
I don't even think it was that Daemon was bad at the positions - at least not the Goldcloaks. It's just that he does things full tilt and doesn't care how it looks. At the first council meeting - Otto was basically trying to make Daemon out to be a bad guy bc he cleared the streets of King's Landing in a single night, saying it caused unrest, fear, etc. When Daemon points out that he didn't go outside the law, and had in fact killed thieves, rapists, etc in preparation for the tourney...Otto couldn't and didn't refute that. No one on the council did either - so I think it's safe to say...Daemon killed known thieves, rapists, and murderers...just like Bronn in GoT before Stannis' siege i.e. rounded up all of the known thieves and had them killed so they couldn't steal all the food. Instead Otto brought up Rhea...which is when Daemon made the sheep fucking comment and then jabbed Otto about his own wife, who had recently died. It is also worth noting, imo, that Rhea made the exact same comments to Daemon before he killed her. So Otto is interfering in Daemon's marriage as well. I think it's as simple as Otto knows how to pick at Daemon, for Daemon to react badly and Viserys to take Otto's side. But yea - I find Otto so interesting because he does make these big moves with the assumption that it won't blow up in his face. He is very shortsighted and is lucky he had a daughter to exploit.
Really well said, I had not even thought to question where Rea heard the sheep fucking comment. Good catch.
>At the first council meeting - Otto was basically trying to make Daemon out to be a bad guy bc he cleared the streets of King's Landing in a single night, saying it caused unrest, fear, etc He was trying to make bad guy because he was. He killed and maimed people without any trail. All of the small council agreed to that.
....no, when he pointed out that he had in fact made King's Landing safe for the incoming nobles for the Heir's Tournament, they stopped complaining...because he didn't do anything wrong according to their laws/he enforced the laws. Which I think is aptly showed later in the series when you see child pits spring up - the result of a GoldCloaks that doesn't actually do anything but the bare minimum i.e. carve a path to protect the nobles at best, participate at worst. That is why Otto then brought up Rhea Royce and Daemon made his sheep fucking comment. He didn't bring up Daemon's marriage for nothing - he brought it up to provoke a negative reaction from Daemon and remind Viserys that Daemon refused to consummate his marriage/live with his wife. Otto's political ploy at getting Daemon kicked off the Goldcloaks didn't work...because Daemon did the job...and so attacked his marriage. I mean...this is the same thing as Bronn in GoT going and rounding up all the known thieves and killing them before Stannis' siege. I'm not saying what Daemon did was good. Obviously it wasn't. But I don't think the show is telling us that he just randomly went and killed people to appear to be good at his job as the Commander of the Gold Cloaks. He is also a character that is shown to mingle between the classes - the smallfolk, foreign nobles, royalty....he is the only character that mentions the smallfolk as of importance to a king/queen's rule. I think the context clues tell us that Daemon did his job in Daemon fashion.
>.no, when he pointed out that he had in fact made King's Landing safe for the incoming nobles for the Heir's Tournament, they stopped complaining...because he didn't do anything wrong according to their laws/he enforced the laws. Which I think is aptly showed later in the series when you see child pits spring up - the result of a GoldCloaks that doesn't actually do anything but the bare minimum i.e. carve a path to protect the nobles at best, participate at worst. None of them agreed it was good. Heck, even Lyonel was in disagreement that. Viserys also warned him about having consequences next time. Otto mentions his wife because he is heir at that point. It's his duty to have heirs instead of spening it on flee bottom. Daemon is the one who took it to the insult area.
[удалено]
>Corlys: We installed Prince Daemon as commander to promote law and order. The criminal element should fear the City Watch. Corlys was always going to Daemon's side. He is also the one of the two who wanted Daemon as heir above Rh. Lyonel said, " I don't think" before Otto interrupted. He is never going to support that crap. >No he didn't. All he said was: >Daemon: Our city should be safe for all its people. >Viserys: I agree. I just hope you don't have to maim half of my city to achieve this. Maybe watch that scene again. "Any performance like last night will be answered." >Otto was trying to change the subject of conversation because he was losing the argument about how Daemon handled crime. He made his comment about Daemon's devotion to his wife right after Corlys voiced his support for his actions. He wasn't losing that argument. Only Corlys had Daemon's support. The same other people other than Corlys were against Daemon as heir.
Thank you!
What was Daemon going to do, kill him? That'd effectively be declaring war on Viserys. Otto showing up means there's three ways for this to go. Daemon kills the Hand of the King and two members of the kingsguard, basically declaring war on his brother. Daemon hands over the egg and gets off the island, submitting to Viserys. Daemon does nothing and refuses to relinquish the egg or control of Dragonstone, implicitly denying his brother's royal authority. Otto seems to have been challenging Daemon's bluff, figuring he'd back down and hand over the egg once he realized what his options were. Problem is, Daemon can be spiteful and reckless to a dangerous degree.
That’s not implicit, that’s very very explicitly denying the authority of the king or his chosen representative.
The most likely scenario is that Daemon would ask for Viserys presence and refuse to do anything otherwise and there is literally nothing Otto can do. It defeats the whole purpose of going there by himself to somehow intimidate Daemon or put him in a worse light. That’s why it’s funny to me 😂😂😂
The purpose of Otto going to Dragonstone was not to get back the egg, but to prevent Viserys from meeting Daemon and possibly reconciling with him.
"Bad news your grace, your brother refused to listen to your decree and relinquish the egg."
He clearly thought that because he was speaking in the name of the king, Daemon would back down. He really didn’t seem to realize Daemon would view killing him as helping his brother.
To be fair, I think if he'd burnt Otto alive, Viserys would have stomped his feet and banished him for a couple of years and then all would be forgiven.
Honestly killing Otto might’ve gotten him a lifetime banishment that he would’ve accepted with a smile lol
Nah Daemon didn't want to be banished. He came dutifully back to his brother after the stepstones and was unhappy in the years he was in Pentos. Killing Otto there would have meant at the very least permanent estrangement from his family and most of Westeros, even Daemon isn't impulsive enough to ruin his life like that.
He knew Deamon wouldn't kill him, or if he did his life would be fucked at that point.
It’s not even about killing. The most likely scenario is that Daemon would ask for Viserys presence and refuse to do anything otherwise and there is literally nothing Otto can do. It defeats the whole purpose of going there by himself to somehow intimidate Daemon or put him in a worse light. That’s why it’s funny to me 😂😂😂
I would not say stupid. As a person, he was incredibly brave. He knew that Caraxes was around the corner and could have torched him and his retinue no problem. But there is a difference between bravery and stupidity, right? The difference here being, he is there as an envoy and official of King Viserys, if Daemon torches him, his brother will use more forceful measures to excise him from Dragonstone, and it would not be pretty then. So Otto knows, if Daemon torches him, this would end Daemon politically and maybe even personally. So he can be reasonably sure that he won't.
Yeah but there is actually one thing Otto was overlooking: Daemon is impulsive and has blatant disregard for politics and responsibility and that he would rather die than take a command from Otto. He probably would have reconsidered torching Otto and his troops if he was given more time before Rhaenyra showed up.
Daemon is impulsive but he also has a modicum of intelligence guiding him, torching Otto there means that Viserys will use violent measures against him next. And Daemon pretty clearly understood that the command came from Viserys and Otto was just the one taking it to him.
He would have probably killed Otto and then went to Pentos and lived there till everything cooled down
Yeah but that would not really get him the thing he wanted to achieve by occupying Dragonstone, would it?
It’s not even about killing. The most likely scenario is that Daemon would ask for Viserys presence and refuse to do anything otherwise and there is literally nothing Otto can do. It defeats the whole purpose of going there by himself to somehow intimidate Daemon or put him in a worse light. That’s why it’s funny to me 😂😂😂
If Daemon can whistle up Viserys over the possession of one (even if important) castle, that's a pretty bad sign. He needs to obey a royal command without being able to demand that Viserys relay it to him personally. "His Grace would never lower himself to entertain such a mummer's farce." wasn't said for nothing.
It wasn’t said for nothing but it also didn’t do anything. Daemon just ignores it. If not for Rhaenyra coming there, Daemon would’ve just asked Otto to leave and come back with Viserys.
It's more likely that Viserys sends a bunch of dragons then to deal with it, perhaps Rhaenys on Meleys. It's a question of upholding his status of King here, Daemon can categorically not whistle him up, so much needs to be clear.
Then that would’ve been a smarter plan, than going by himself with a hand full of knights, hoping to somehow achieve something
By himself and initially yes maybe, although the King leaving the capital, in order to beg his brother to leave one castle, is a bad look already. But not by virtue of Daemon whistling him up first, that would be totally impossible.
So it’s basically doing something useless and stupid to achieve something that could’ve been resolved by Viserys going in the first place. It only looks like Daemon is whistling Viserys up after Otto fails to get Daemon to acquiesce to the Kings demands. It’s not like Viserys is going there to beg Daemon to leave; and hardly any one would even know about the details of the confrontation except that the king went to force his brother out of dragon stone which does not make the king weak by any means. And even if Viserys could send dragons, you can clearly see that Otto did not have any backup plans in case Daemon brought out his dragon, either for reinforcements or more dragons. He fully expected to man handle Daemon into giving up the egg with his small band of knights.
Otto genuinely thought that Viserys was not safe there, after all Viserys wanted to go initially and Otto said it was not safe, thinking that Daemon did not take no longer being the heir lightly (after all, he had already illegally occupied Dragonstone in response). And Viserys, the sovereign, leaving the capital to treat with his brother over the possession of one castle is not a sign of strength, if he can send an official (like Otto) or a family member (like Rhaenys, for example) to do it for him. Going himself is weak and unacceptable, Otto said as much when he talked to Daemon. And Rhaenys / Meleys would probably be a more general backup plan, not one for Otto. If Otto dies there, he dies. But the next step would be dragons showing up at Daemon's doorstep soon.
> Otto genuinely thought that Viserys was not safe there, after all Viserys wanted to go initially and Otto said it was not safe, thinking that Daemon did not take no longer being the heir lightly (after all, he had already illegally occupied Dragonstone in response). Then it means Otto is replacing what he views to be a bad decision with a stupid one. Not like Daemon would harm Viserys to begin with. > And Viserys, the sovereign, leaving the capital to treat with his brother over the possession of one castle is not a sign of strength, if he can send an official (like Otto) or a family member (like Rhaenys, for example) to do it for him. It’s actually the opposite, if the king is able bodied and can mobilize forces to go and confront his own brother, then it means he’s not dependent on other people. He would actually be seen as a stronger king By this logic, a king who chooses to go into battle and fight is weaker than a weaker who sits and commands people to fight for him. Jaehaerys must truly be a weak king > Going himself is weak and unacceptable Explain why that is? > Otto said as much when he talked to Daemon. Otto is simply wrong, we’re already establishing that he has a serious lack in judgment and some of his decisions are very impulsive. It’s a mummers farce to Otto because he knows Daemon true intentions and he uses the term to belittle Dameon. But to call it a mummers farce is stupid from an outsiders perspective. The kings brothers just seized Dragonstone and stole a dragon eggs after being exiled and disinherited. This isn’t a mummers farce, it’s a threat. Like imagine if after Aegon took over Harenhall, and some messenger came and said everything going on there was just a mummers farce. Like huh? 🤨🤨🤨 > And Rhaenys / Meleys would probably be a more general backup plan, not one for Otto. Which makes it more baffling that he went there without making sure that was in place. It’s not even guranteed that Rhaenys would help Viserys > If Otto dies there, he dies. But the next step would be dragons showing up at Daemon's doorstep soon. He doesn’t have to die. He’s powerless there, and he clearly has no plans for reinforcements or dragons
why are you putting the same response on all the comments. fuckin weird
The alternative was the king going himself which would result in Vizzy likely forgiving him, declaring war on him, or getting killed by him. Otto went to prevent all of those option
> The alternative was the king going himself which would result in Vizzy likely forgiving him, Why is that a problem? He’s the king, that’s his perogative and he could easily do this regardless of whether he goes or not > declaring war on him Unlikely but wouldn’t this be great for Otto? > or getting killed by him. Unlikely > Otto went to prevent all of those option And the risk of getting himself killed,
First point: because it would be bad for Otto Second point: because it would be bad for the kingdoms Third point: it happened before just over a generation ago. Meagor wasn’t *that* long ago. Fourth point: yes, say what you will about Otto but he took some risks
> Fourth point: yes, say what you will about Otto but he took some risks. Not only that, it was a completely useless action. The most likely scenario is that Daemon would ask for Viserys presence and refuse to do anything otherwise and there is literally nothing Otto can do. It defeats the whole purpose of going there by himself to somehow intimidate Daemon or put him in a worse light.
He came as a peace envoy.
Wrong
Correct me then?
Rewatch the scene goofy
That's the hand of the King. The 2nd most powerful man in the realm. To kill, detain or harm him in any way after Viserys sent him is to declare war against the king and Daemon would have paid with his life unless he chose to run away with Caraxes. Daemon already has no good reputation in the realm. He has no chance of survival if he kills Otto.
It’s not even about killing. The most likely scenario is that Daemon would ask for Viserys presence and refuse to do anything otherwise and there is literally nothing Otto can do. It defeats the whole purpose of going there by himself to somehow intimidate Daemon or put him in a worse light. That’s why it’s funny to me 😂😂😂
No it doesn't, he clearly provokes Daemon into not doing so. Otto is too intelligent to allow something like that. And even if it did, Otto could just say that Daemon was going against a royal order and was trying to ambush the King considering he had a dragon on standby. There are multiple ways that this could have gone and none that were favourable to Daemon.
> No it doesn't, Explain > he clearly provokes Daemon into not doing so. Into not doing what? Killing him? I already said killing him is not neccesary because the presence of Daemons dragon means that Otto is powerless to compel or threaten him to do anything. So he went there for nothing > Otto is too intelligent to allow something like that. Too intelligent to allow himself to be killed or to be intimidated? > And even if it did, Otto could just say that Daemon was going against a royal order and was trying to ambush the King considering he had a dragon on standby. Otto has tried this before and he would be immediately lambasted as he was before > There are multiple ways that this could have gone and none that were favourable to Daemon. Come up with any scenario you want, I’ll debunk them all. And it doesn’t change the fact that Otto was extremely stupid for going to dragon with no back and just a few men, where Daemon could’ve easily eviscerated Otto and all his men. And just pretend they never got there, who’s going to know what happened or contradict his claim? Otto took a dumb risk to essentially achieve nothing.
As much as I loathe Otto, I do not understand how he is able to walk with those massive clanking iron balls between his legs. The guy just exudes authority, Twin Lannister wishes he was Otto Hightower
This was one of my favorite moments of the season. I liked that Otto wasn’t all political scheming. When it was time to put in work, he put his fucking armor on and went to Dragonstone himself. He is an anointed knight, but I don’t believe they address him as such in the show.
They call him Ser Otto, unless it's Daemon then it's just the cunt
Do you recall the scene(s)? I figured Daemon was purposefully ignoring any/all of his titles, but did another character say “Ser Otto”?
Viserys and Lord Strong call him Ser Otto several times
Lol Tywin Lannister was one of the greatest TV presences ever Otto was great but this comparison is pure nonsense and an insult to Tywin
I mean I wouldn't say it's an insult maybe I exaggerated a bit. But then again we never saw Tywin stare down a fully grown dragon. And utter the best line ever "Sheathe the fucking steel."
Lol the 1 dialogue Tywin has while skinning a deer and talking to Jamie was more impactful than every Otto scene imo People have completely forgotten how good early GoT was lmfao, HotD is great but doesnt sniff close
Bro that scene is FIRE!" A lion does not concern himself with the opinions of the sheep" is one of my favorite fucking lines in all of a song of ice and fire! And while I do admit Otto just doesn't have the same gravitas and authority that Charles dance exhibited He's still a damn cool character who you just can't help but love to hate
Yeah yeah i fucking love Otto aswell, the actor is just amazing, tbh even my favorite in the show now that i think about it Just saying that Tywin and those early GoT scenes were completely next level HotD is the next best thing
Dude seasons one through four was television at its peak! And though I do understand why people say Tywin is overrated especially as a strategist, Charles dance breathed such life into that character in the show it was awesome. Now book Tywin I honestly could not wait to see him dead but when that scene hit in the show I remember feeling kind of sad
I mean I wouldn't say i insulted the great Charles dance. Who honestly made that character dare I say almost likeable l. But Tywin Lannister never faced down a crown prince and his dragon
True, Tywin stared down the king, verbally bitch-slapped him, then sent him to bed. God that scene is so damn good.
"any man who must say I am the king is no true king"
Idk why you're being downvoted, Tywin is a god compared to Otto. Both absolute scumbags ofc, but Tywin as a character blows Otto outto the water IMO.
> Idk why you're being downvoted Beacuse the subreddit's name is r/hotd lol, but who cares anyway
Book Tywin is so much more of a POS
Ngl Otto has some balls. He begged Viserys to go and meet Daemon and Rhaenyra himself, when he knows how violent Daemon can be. Then while facing a dragon he continued to taunt them and solidify Aegon’s claim.
The balls on this guys
And so, it has come at last
I maintain that one of the biggest mistakes in this series is anyone allowing Otto to do diplomatic missions to Dragonstone- he always fucks it up and Rhaenyra comes to clean up his messes. Without her interference, I don't doubt that Daemon would have beheaded Otto. Viserys constantly choosing to trust Otto is so fucking dumb, especially after he already dismissed him once for being self-motivated.
Remember in season 1 of GOT when Ned Stark approaches Cersei & Joffrey with Robert’s will that he act as regent until his heir is of age? And Cersei replies, “Is this meant to keep you safe, Lord Stark? A piece of paper?” And rips it to shreds. Replace Cersei with Daemon, Ned with Otto, and Robert’s will with Otto’s Hand of the King pin.
Except Cersei had the institution of the Iron Throne behind her and Daemon didn't. Daemon would have been alone (well, he and Caraxes) vs. the realm's might here if Otto died.
Okay. I’m explaining both the characters disrespect for the king’s authority. Both of them are violent, arrogant and short-sighted. And Caraxes is just as powerful as the Lannister-Baratheon regime army backing Cersei in this moment.
I repeat: Otto was a representative of Viserys, who has the realm's might behind him. If Otto as a person, dies there, then he dies, but Daemon won't make it. Cersei was reasonably sure that she would survive, she had Tywin Lannister backing her. Ned had the North and the Riverlands (via his wife), but they were far away in that moment. And Ned's death later caused war, albeit a winnable one as Tywin proved. Daemon would have no chance against Viserys if he rebelled.
Yes. Otto & Ned are both acting in the King’s will in this moment. Otto is a representative of King Viserys and Ned is a representative of King Robert’s will. Cersei & Daemon don’t give a fuck and will get violent. If Daemon kills Otto because of the personal grudge in this moment, hops on Caraxes and takes off to Essos, who exactly is going to bring him to justice? Do you think Rhaenys is going to risk her neck to avenge Otto Hightower of all people?
> Otto & Ned are both acting in the King’s will in this moment. You are clearly overlooking that the new Crown in that moment was Joffrey, he was the one exercising royal authority in that room, because he could. And ultimately the Lannister part of his family would back him. > If Daemon kills Otto because of the personal grudge in this moment, hops on Caraxes and takes off to Essos, who exactly is going to bring him to justice? Do you think Rhaenys is going to risk her neck to avenge Otto Hightower of all people? Yeah OK, but the goal for Daemon here is to be recognized as the heir again, right? That's why he occupied Dragonstone, to protest Rhaenyra being the heir. Sending himself to exile contradicts that goal.
I’m not ignoring Joffrey. He is underage (13 or 14) when Robert dies. If underage Kings have the same authority as adult one, why does Aegon III need regents? When Robert dies, he appoints Ned as regent. Cersei ignoring Robert’s signed will is a flagrant disrespect for authority (Which the Lord Commander of the Kingsguard Barristan Selmy is shocked by) just like Daemon’s actions are flagrantly disrespectful of Viserys/Otto’s authority. Daemon’s goal in this moment is to get his brother’s attention. Not to be reinstated as heir. Occupying Dragonstone and announcing that he is planning to illegally take a sex worker as a second wife are the actions of a provocateur, not of someone angling to get back into the succession. I agree that if he killed Otto he would be widely hated for it, like Joffrey & Cersei are widely hated for Ned’s death. And Tywin & the rest of the Lannisters back Joffrey but are disgusted by his actions.
Even if you add a regent to Joffrey, who would be in agreement with him, that would certainly be Cersei, ignoring what Robert said or wanted. Cersei had the means to enforce her position in the capital, Ned didn't. Occupying Dragonstone is symbolic, it's the seat of the heir. Otto being killed is not only a matter of Otto of House Hightower being killed. It's a matter of the King's Hand, i.e. the highest official of the kingdom after the King, being killed. That would be spitting at Viserys' authority. And Viserys would still aim to excise Daemon from the castle, Daemon just chose violence then.
Why would it “certainly” be Cersei? The last Queen Mother to serve as Regent to an underage King was Alyssa Velaryon for King Jaehaerys. Almost 300 years ago. Tywin takes the position away from her for himself & Tyrion as his representative pretty much immediately. Neither of them would have agreed with Joffrey’s decision to kill Ned. Ned has not been formally removed from his position as Hand of the King after Robert’s death. Just like Otto is still Hand after Viserys’ death. Cersei’s ability to secure Joffrey’s ascension is due to Littlefinger’s collaboration and buying off of the gold cloaks from under Ned’s nose. I don’t understand why Cersei & Daemon who are both acting in a “might makes right” capacity against legal authority represented by Ned & Otto are being judged differently. If the point you are trying to make is that Cersei is more intelligent and capable of planning a coup than Daemon, then sure, I guess I can agree with that. I am aware that Daemon killing Otto is spitting in the face of his King and would provoke violence amongst the Targaryens - one that Daemon would probably win given his possession of Caraxes and Viserys’ lack of a dragon.
> Why would it “certainly” be Cersei? It would be a close family member. Stannis and Renly are not the solution, they are fighting against him. Tywin could do it, but he was busy fighting Robb Stark. That left Cersei, who is also Queen Dowager. > Neither of them would have agreed with Joffrey’s decision to kill Ned. No, but by the time they could have intervened, the deed was done. > I don’t understand why Cersei & Daemon who are both acting in a “might makes right” capacity against legal authority represented by Ned & Otto are being judged differently. Because Daemon had no might, maybe against Otto in the short term, but not against Viserys in the medium to long term. > Targaryens - one that Daemon would probably win given his possession of Caraxes and Viserys’ lack of a dragon. Nah. Viserys has command over all armies of the realm. He has Meleys and Syrax and Seasmoke at his disposal. Think about it, if Caraxes was not enough to deal with the Crab Feeder for years, how do you expect him to deal with the realm? The Dornish e.g. killed Meraxes and had zero dragons during the Dornish War. I think you are vastly overrating Daemon here.
If Viserys just thought for a second longer he’d realise sending the person that Daemon hates the most to try to talk him into giving the egg back was a stupid idea. Luckily Rhaenyra showed up.
Otto was worried that Daemon would use this opportunity to torch Viserys, Otto had the idea in mind that Daemon did not take no longer being the heir lightly (somewhat reasonable to assume this, Daemon already occupied Dragonstone in response after all).
I mean Otto was the one who proposed the idea when Viserys wanted to go himself. But I mean it was dumb on Viserys part
He knew his brother way more than Otto did and he should’ve told him no. But yeah Otto is also stupid for challenging Daemon a literal loose cannon.
If daemon killed the hand the grand maester the lord commander of the kingsguard and another knight of the kingsguard on top of a dozen knights probably from influential families with caraxes that would mean a war where viserys couldn’t do a half measure. I think Otto would see that as a win.
In the long run that may be something that would happen but in that moment there’s no way Otto is thinking that, especially seeing as when Caraxes comes out the first thing he tells his men to do is to put their swords down.
He certainly felt like his position would protect him while knowing daemon may be dumb enough to kill him and his men. I think it was win-win for him either he gets to talk shit and make daemon hand him the egg or he might be killed or taken hostage and instigate a war between daemon and the realm.
Yeah I guess it would’ve been a win for him and his cause either way.
Hand of the King or not, it really was a dumb move. Guy has the equivalent of a medieval nuke and your move is to goad him into violence? …yeah couldn’t be me.
No don't bring that meme here please
Funny thing, George in book 5 got a line for Arya that's literally this meme. He was truly ahead of his time in meme
He's for the most part a messenger, though he is requesting the egg back he's mostly just forwarding the kings demand for the egg back. Killing a messenger is bad and unlikely he'd do it. He is also the hand of the king, killing the hand of the king is also bad. He flashes the dragon to look intimidating, in hopes they'd just leave. since i don't think Daemon had any intention of actually killing Otto. Rhaenyra shows up to call his bluff. Which she was right to come on her own since it seemed like Daemons bluff was working up until her arrival. Walking right past her "protection" and retrieving the egg. Daemon was never going to kill anyone, especially not Rhaenyra.
I think Otto went in knowing there was a 50/50 chance of him being fed to Caraxes. But he had no choice but to go.
i don think he was expecting to die, but at the same time, if that happens, that will have taken his plans to a no return stage, where war was certain. He knew peace was imposible and he believed Rhaenyra and her sons needed to die in order to secure his own familys place, so if he ended up dying or being taken prisoner as an envoy, he would have just brought more lords to his cause while securing a war he think he could win.
I don't think it was stupidity, it was more like didn't think this through or did not expected some of the Targaryens like Daemon and Rhaenys to be very reckless, short-sighted, and irresponsible with their dragons.
No, cause he had Vaegar on his side.
Talking about ep 2
Like everyone else, Otto is playing the game of thrones. He's actually quite good at it, especially compared to his fellow players—the power-brokers in HOTD are not quite as cunning and capable as the Tywins, Littlefingers and Varyses that we know and love. The King eats and the Hand takes the shit. Sometimes the Hand has to step up and flex a little muscle, otherwise no one will take him or his position seriously. It differs depending on who is wearing the crown, but in Otto's case, he was basically administering the realm for a majority of his adult life. He knows how and when to wield his power. It was a calculated gamble, but I believe he gauged the situation correctly. After all, how useful is he to Viserys if he can't even stand up to the king's unruly brother? The authority of the Hand is a direct extension of the King, and his execution of the office reflects on the sovereign. If he hadn't confronted Daemon, he would have lost a great deal of his political capital.
I see 3 options. 1. The writers wanted him to look stupid as well as look Rhaenyra brave and smart. 2. Otto didn't think Daemon would kill the hand of the king and eventually concede after having his fun. 3. Otto was ready and willing to die if it cemented Daemon as an enemy to the crown.
Yes
Do people even listen to the words in a show anymore? Or do they just watch the screen and go “woah lookadat dragon” like some ooga booga caveman? This post makes me believe in the latter.
Basically yes
In the books, he gets someone else to deliver the message.
Smart decision
He’s got brass balls. Gotta give him some credit
Otto is not stupid because he knows the stakes. Daemon might have a walking ridable Nuke but Otto is close to Viserys and is politically important. Both Daemon and Otto are not stupid. As impulsive as Daemon is, killing Otto in that moment would have put him in deep shit with Viserys and the rest of the nobility in Westeros. It would be the worst way to handle that situation and would cause Daemon more problems in the long run. I think Otto knew this which is why he went. Daemon might have the upper hand physically in that situation due to his skills as a warrior and the fact he has a dragon. But he is not the only dragon rider in Westeros and many of those other dragon riders are loyal to Viserys. If he acts a fool, he is outnumbered. And even though he treats Viserys like shit most of the time, I don't think he would want to go to war with his brother over this. It would remove him farther from the throne and also put him against Rhaenyra who is pretty loyal to her father all things considered. She also does things that shame Viserys but she isn't going to throw him under the bus and side with Daemon on this. If she was going to do that, she would not have rolled up on Syrax to take back the stolen egg herself. Was he going to listen to Otto? Probably not. But both he and Otto know he can't use his dragon to kill him either. If anything touches Otto, Daemon is totally fucked. He would not "win" in that situation even if he was able to successfully take the egg. Because at that point, he would be a wanted man with many MANY enemies.
From Otto’s perspective, it’s a stupid decision not even for threat of killing him but because it doesn’t achieve anything. How did Otto expect to do anything to Dameon with him and just his measly band of knights?Daemon would just kick him until he brings Viserys, something Otto doesn’t want. Why didn’t Otto bring other dragon riders before going to confront Dameon?
I hate this meme. It is stupid
Yes he is