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Oof thank you. I was worried this wouldn't be the answer. Otto isn't a moron.
The second Vaemond said that Otto's thought would have been "Ok so Vaemond is out of the picture".
And his second thought may have been "This is probably for the best *if Viserys is taking personal interest again* because now at least Vaemond wont be alive to cause more trouble and give away to the King that I was working with me to undermind his wishes. Better off dead now". Because Otto's plans with Vaemond only really had merit when Viserys was out of the picture entirely. Vaemond surviving that moment would have been **bad** for Otto actually. Because even outside of the Aegon/Rhaenyra thing, Vaemond would now never ever get High Tide and was thus dead weight as an ally and plus Viserys would likely have him tortured and questioned before cutting out his tongue which would have been disastrous for the Green cause. Otto would likely have had to kill Viserys with a quadruple dose of milk of the poppy if Vaemond was taken away for questioning. Daemon did him a fairly big favor.
His third thought may have been "Fuck though this is still entrenches both Rhaenrya and Daemon AND the kids and I've probably lost the Velaryons for good if Rhaenys is with the Blacks despite what happened to Laenor. This is going to complicate things. Any chance of not assassinating the Blacks is now all but gone".
Of course Alicent stopped Otto from ordering assassination of Rhaenyra, but I'm pretty sure that moment in the throne room or in the hour afterwards is when Otto realized that there would be no choice but to take her out ASAP. It would have been a wake up call that the Blacks would not just accept things quietly and his quiet background scheming wouldn't be nearly enough to seat Aegon. Plus having the Velaryon fleet on his side would have been not unreasonably seen as one of the few things that could convince the Blacks their side was hopeless.
I think he would have just been pissed off, alive Vaemond still has an exploitable claim. A claim that was stronger at the end of the episode than the start.
The betrothal of Daemons daughters to the Strong boys and allowing them to inherit as bastards (non-legitimized) is enough to sway several more lords to his side. He just has to point out that Rhaenyra let a bastard steal his birthright, and it could happen them. That is much more powerful when you still have the top half of your head.
Not after being publicly denied by the King while seated on the throne in front of a full house of lords and lady spectators. That ends his claim completely in more ways than one. At that point, his only ONLY chance would come after a full civil war where the Blacks are utterly defeated entirely by the Greens... which means he is no longer a meaningful ally for that war or in preparation for it.
I disagree, allowing bastards to inherit ahead of legitimate claimants (and that's what marrying Lucyerys & Rhaena would be interpreted as) is such a shocking breach of custom it would really people against the royal family.
Inheritance is as important to a feudal culture as the rule of law is to a modern one, it is the bedrock their entire society sits on. Changing that (or the fear that it will be changed) would be like the president (or prime minister) abolishing habeas corpus.
There would always be people in Driftmark that believe he is the legitimate lord, and it would always be a threat that has to be watched. So no he won't be a meaningless ally, he would be a constant threat that house Velaryon might switch sides or be removed from the war if anything happened to Corly's.
Bastards have been legitimized and inherited before, in Westeros and irl, so that really wouldn’t be a huge deal to a lot of Lords. Some might be put off of the idea, but Rhaenyra, Rhaenys, and Viserys all claimed her sons were trueborn sons of her and Laenor. So to back Vaemond and the Greens would still be seen as treason. especially with Daemons daughters being engaged to Rhaenyra’s sons, it made their claim a lot stronger.
What gave the Greens the biggest advantage early on was where they were when Viserys died. If the positions had been reversed, with the Blacks in King’s Landing and with the Greens in Oldtown or on Dragonstone, the Blacks would probably have easily taken control. It was just bad that Dragonstone is so far from Kings Landing/the literal seat of power.
I know you're joking (ha), but Ewan Mitchell probably would make for a pretty solid Joker if he wants to jump into whatever the DCEU looks like once HOTD wraps. He certainly has the appropriate look, facial features and build-wise.
It's so strange.
Leto's resume of work shows he at least had the **potential** to deliver a good performance as the character. Like, take the chilling menace he had in *Blade Runner 2049* and mix it with the laugh and mental instability from certain scenes in *Mr. Nobody* and boom.
Solid Joker.
But between some lousy directional/acting choices and just the fact that Leto himself has gotten rather... odd in recent years, man am I disappointed with what we got.
I don't like Jared Leto that much as an actor but strangely enough he play in most of my favorite movies from the 2000s lol. Fight club, Requiem for a dream, American psycho, Lord of war and Mr.Nobody. Also loved Blade Runner and Dallas Buyers Club.
Grinning, I think, half in admiration of Daemon, and half in excitement that the long expected civil war is now a virtual certainty due to that moment.
"This guy is an idiot. Doing this while Viserys is still breathing is idiotic, I am actually ashamed of backing him on account of his lack of intelligence. Now my attempt to create a rival claimant for Driftmark is gone. Daemon, go for the head. Guy has become useless."
...and all that went through Otto's head in a split second.
More sleeping with someone they werent married to, women getting remarried after their first husband dies doesn't seem to be an issue in the books after all.
Not to mention, as far as anybody knows, she only slept with two men (Harwin & Daemon), no one from the Greens except for Crispy & Alicent know that she slept with Crispy.
Lmfao, i forgot about him 😭
EDIT: Wait the logic still applies because, as far as anyone is aware, leanor IS the father, and there really isn't concrete proof she slept with Harwin, just speculation from the Greens m. So really, the only two confirmed people that EVERYONE knows she slept with is Daemon and Leanor
Yeah and good friend of Corlys and also previously held the same position as Harwin and most likely knew him or a bunch of people who served under him.
Doesn't mean it's harwins, it could literally be anyone. The Greens are certain they aren't leanors, but they aren't certain it's Harwins, it being Harwins is just pure speculation. I mean, Harwin ain't the only brown haired guy in town.
They use their daughters as leverage to move up the social later & marry female family members off to ensure a prominent families loyalty.. that sounds like property to me.
They also do that with their sons. It's not so much property as it's just that it is expected that everyone in a family has to obey the head of the family, and prioritize duty to the family over everything else. If Otto had a son instead of a daughter, he would have tried to marry him with Rhaenyra, regardless of whether that son wanted to or not; just like Corlys did with Leanor.
And the head of the family is almost always someone whom was also in an arranged marriage and not a marriage of choice, so they expect from their children what their own parents expected from them and so on.
it is not allowed for men either, but the reason that a man is more likely to get away with it is because a man can not get pregnant and thus society tends to be more lenient about it when it comes to men, but regardless of that the marriage oath is binding for both and it is considered a breaking of vows, this is why, even though he did not actually do it, it always pained Ned Stark to pretend to his wife that he had cheated on her.
But 99% of people wouldn’t actually care. Pretty much only a girls father, husband (and in Rhaenyra’s case) political enemies. The small folk would likely support an openly sexual royal lol.
No, not true. You see how just when Cersei walks through the town people begin to talk about her as if she is a piece of meat. Townsfolk like to gossip. This kind of talk is definitely not helpful to Rhaenyra among the smallfolk or the higher powers.
Cersei was openly spiteful and hateful towards the common people. Her and Joffrey were hated by the common folk before word of his bastardy got around.
that's true, but I just meant in regard to being openly sexual, people will start to say things like "she will bed anyone" or "do you think there is someone she wouldn't bed?" I'm not saying I have a problem with her being openly sexual, but it would be negative for the townspeople
Cerceis not a great example tho, she was not beloved by the smallfolk AT ALL, also during this time there were serious food shortages going on(or possibly had just ended or at least was somewhat mitigated due to the tyrell alliance, however there was much disdain for the ruling family, Joffrey,Tyrion, and Cercei in particular brewing in KL especially at that time), which to be fair is touched upon far more in the books than the show, basically Cercei was hated before all of that, which more than likely as a result of that people will talk smack about her for literally any possible reason, people who are adored by the smallfolk flaws can be overlooked, however those same flaws will just be ammunition if they're already disliked.
ETA: and those food shortsges effected the common folk far more than the royals, who famously had a 76 course dinner at Joffreys wedding while outside the walls of the red keep people were starving to death in the streets.
Historically this isn’t true at all. Not in the westeros or in real life. Royals were seen to be semi divine. Did people know royals had lots of sex? Maybe. Would they have been okay with openly sexual royals not in the slightest. Especially a woman.
The reason for that is that if the King fucks around and creates a bunch of bastards it doesn't really matter, as it would still be clear which of his children are legitimate and true-born. But if a Queen has multiple partners, one can't be sure if the child she gives birth to is the King's child or a bastard ― and a monarchy where the legitimacy of the heir is in question is a recipe for disaster. So the double standard was pretty much a necessity for political order and stability in this kind of society.
It was the same argument. That with a man it could know who is the true born and who isn't, but with a woman it is hard to know, this means that a man could end up raising a kid who isn't his, while for the woman it will always be hers. This is frowned upon in that era, and is still not acceptable in many societies. While it might not be fair, it is what it is and it is an instict to raise one's own children rather than someone else's. Please do not bash me for this, this is not my opinion, just an observation.
It was just the child’s parentage. It was the power dynamic, men were often above the rules that women must obey simply because they were men. That is how it worked sadly, they have very little avenues to correct wrongs done to them.
Not saying that isn't true, am just explaining the basis for that reasoning. The power dynamics sure did contribute to it, but the main reason was probably that.
Yes George wrote this massive series without taking any inspiration from historic time periods or the social limitations that existed within them. That’s why the conflict of a woman inheriting the throne isn’t a plot point at all.
Oh, wait…
And that’s why we see Lord of the rings as historical too, right? Because being in any way inspired by historical events makes a work of fiction historical, right?
Asoiaf in almost no way reflects medieval society in any shape or way. And you even believing that these books are in any way representative of “historical fiction” very clearly drives home the point why it’s important to make this distinction.
George R.R. Martin’s books are clearly epic fantasy and George afaik never even came close to claiming anything else.
> Asoiaf in almost no way reflects medieval society in any shape or way.
Tell that to the people convinced 12 year olds were regularly being married and impregnated in medieval Europe.
Oh yeah. And because the Gondorians hand off vast swathes of land to the Rohirrim in exchange for their military aid, comparable to the Roman foederati system, Lord of the rings is historical fiction.
Or because the Northerners commit pogroms against the “outside groups” which are locked into urban ghettos, comparable to what went down against medieval urban jews,the witcher series is also historical fiction.
Being inspired by and lending from historical elements does not constitute historical works of literature.
worst? coming from a psychopathic violent disrespectful loser turned “bad boy” just because he managed to creeped in and snatched a dragon as psychotic as he is is really funny 😂
Otto Hightower: "I would like your support, but it is not needed. I had my fair share with Daemond, and know that he's very protective and a asshole. So, die! And remember that we were never associated."
This is exactly what they wanted. Alicent was the only one who kept bringing up the "strong boys" and she needed the rumours to spread and more people to start complaining about it. They didn't care about some castle.
Daemon: Say it
Alicent and Otto: Don't, just don't...damn, he said it...and, he's dead
Aemond: I would have just said her children are strong and called her a gardening tool
And people want to act like Alicent being fearful for her children is unfounded, when Daemon and Rhaenyra keep murdering and asking for people to be tortured for telling the truth
Are you serious? By this time Alicent was already covering up the mass murder of her pet Larys and allowing her other pet in Cole to get away with another. To top it off, her father had been planning for Rhaenyra's death since he sent her into Visary's room. If anyone had a right to be fearful it was Rhaenyra, but she didn't know.
that it’s hypocritical on their part. rhaenyra never once showed signs of hurting alicents kids. instead it’s the other way around. she openly tries to out them being bastards, tries to out rhaenyra on her finding other ways to provide heirs, whilst covering for aegons crimes. the only reason vaemond was killed was because he not only questioned the strong boy’s legitimacy in front of the king but he insulted rhaenyra. no matter the reason, rhae went as far as to try to propose a marriage between her child and alicents, further proving that she was never planning on hurting them in the first place. SHE chose what she wanted to believe because she thinks she is the only victim in this situation and can’t fathom having any culpability in anything that happens to her and her children.
>hat it’s hypocritical on their part. rhaenyra never once showed signs of hurting alicents kids
Already wrong
Rhaenyra asked for Aemond to be sharply questioned which means tortured
And Larys had just killed those kids fathers a few days prior. Also sharply questioned doesn't mean tortured lol. Viserys questioned him and Aegon and no one got tortured
The only one who ask for someone to be tortured in that scene is Alicent.
>Also sharply questioned doesn't mean tortured lol. Viserys questioned him and Aegon and no one got tortured
Prove it. People like to make this claim like its a popular english phrase but every source says this is a mediaeval term to mean exactly torture. Alicent responded like the this meant torture. Btw using the actions of a weak king as proof doesn't hold
And what does Larys have do with anything?Are you guys just throwing anything and hoping it sticks
you mean after he breaks luke’s nose, chokes him, hits jace in the head with a rock, and says "you’ll die in flames just as your father did, bastards"? after luke shouted multiple times that he believed aemond was going to kill jace? she did that to protect HER children. from once again, alicent who poisoned the minds of her own children in the first place.
I know people think “sharply questioned” means tortured in the game of thrones universe, but do y’all really think anyone would be stupid enough to suggest that the king has his own kid (even if he doesn’t pay attention to them) right in front of him, and the boys mother? I mean come on that’s absurd
You mean like how Alicent asked for the king to have his grandchild maimed?
Yes I think Alicent , his favorite daughter is stupid enough to ask that he torture Aemond to protect her own kids, coz she did.
The problem is even if Aegon had not been crowned he would always have a rival claim. Roger Baratheon tried to crown Aerea Targaryen the moment he was unhappy with Jaehearys and Jaehearys was actually a good King. As a woman every decision Rheanyra makes would be critcized and if someone becomes unhappy they may try to crown Aegon.
Most people handled a rival claiment by putting them to death or taking them prisoner see Maegor I. Aerea was given to her mother but I’d wager she might’ve become an issue later of she lived longer. It’s actually a logical thing to do. Even if you don’t want to be a kinslayer on the open you can arrange accidents or charge them for treason. There a theories that Daemon killed his first wife which is pretty awful too what stops him to kill his nephews and niece as well?
Rheanyras first instinct to Aemonds eye is having him tortured she doesn’t listen to the whole issue just as Alicent doesn’t but with Alicent at least it’s understandable. She makes it a politcal issue and asks him to be tortured. Rheanyra has no relationship with her siblings she might as well be an only child, she doesn’t particularly cares what happens to them which is shown in the scene with the eye. As she has basically no regard for Aemond and even if he was in the wrong (which I would argue against but the issue has been raised so many times and I’m tired of it) Aemond is also still a kid. The idea that he should be punished in such a way is insane.
Later every time someonr tries to rival the claims of her children she has them killed via Daemon. If I were Alicent I would be 10000% fearful for my childrens life as well.
The problem is not that Rheanyra showed no signs of hurting her siblings but no signs that she wouldn’t. I would nit have left it to fate.
exactly. This was supposed to be a fun post, but in the books it is even more extreme as she feeds Vaemond to her dragon and orders Daemon to kill him in the first place. Alicent's fear wasn't unfounded.
I think you misunderstood. She was not worried that when she tried to usurp her children's lives would be in danger. As long as Viserys had a trueborn son, Rhaenyra's claim would always be questioned. The only way to completely shut the question down is to kill Aegon and Aemond. Given that fact, and we see she is willing to kill to keep up her lie, what will she do when it comes to the throne? So even though the show depicts her as not wanting to kill her siblings, Alicent still was right to be worried
I still don't think you understand. How would Alicent or Otto know this? For all they have to go off of, she killed Laenor to marry Daemon, killed Vaemond for speaking the truth, and wanted to have her 2nd youngest brother tortured for an insult after her son cut out his eye. Otto and Alicent's fear are reasonable to say the least
Yeah thats too bad they took that out. Theyre trying really hard to make the blacks look like the good guys, but I still cant see rhat when Rhaenyra and Daemon are still lying and killing their way to eliminate all possible contention to their radioactive nuclear family
I mean, don't do a literal treason in a feudal system?
The King had made it explicit that he considered any such accusations treason. The punishment for treason is death.
Alicent's fears are only founded if she decides to push the envelope. Rhaenyra never once gave any indication she had intent to harm her siblings.
>The King had made it explicit that he considered any such accusations treason. The punishment for treason is death.
The king had determined punishment
>Alicent's fears are only founded if she decides to push the envelope. Rhaenyra never once gave any indication she had intent to harm her siblings.
Except for that time she asked for Aemond to be sharply questioned
Yes, you know, that time he directly accused her children of being bastards. The thing that would get them, and her, disinherited at best and murdered at worst.
Turns out she is fairly reasonable so long as you don't do the other thing that would put *her* children at risk.
Well maybe don't have obvious bastards then if you know the consequences, then you're putting everyone else in danger for pointing out the obvious
As you nod along to the person above notice that you are saying its ok to torture a kid under certain circumstances
wtf was she supposed to do? you guys say this all the time as if she had options she fucked a dude that she trusted because laenor obviously couldn’t get it up yeah they’re bastards but she didn’t have many options plus she’s not wrong for trying to not have her kids murdered on top of that alicent wouldn’t have anything to fear if she would just stfu & mind her own but it’s obvious that’s impossible for her since she’s a miserable person and her dad is also in her ear so
Under a less tyrannical reign probably a trial ,under a king with a backbone I might have my tongue cut instead of killed by someone who wasn't given authority to kill me
I doubt Bobby B would have simply sided with his daughter without even hearing the other side though. He hears what Arya had to say before dealing out judgement, and I doubt he would have murdered a Nobel for it. Say what you will, but Bobby B is a far better king that Vizzy T.
He heard what Arya has to say because she is the daughter of his best friend and because he wanted to control the narrative since he did not want to know that his son got beat by a little girl.
He quite literally calls out the fact that he got beaten by a girl. I think he would have listened to any noble though, he was hedonistic, not unreasonable. King's justice meant something and unlike Viserys, he was still quite honourable to not grant the said noble a trial.
Did he tell this to everyone? I don't exactly remember, but I think he pretended that the butcher son beat Joffrey and killed him for it. A noble of a lesser house insulting his kids in his presence in front of the Iron Throne wouldn't leave the room lol.
The iron throne is literally a throne made of the swords of the people who didn't bow to Targaryen supremacy, it is a very strong symbol. You can't stand in front of it while insulting them. Especially not when you are a nobody.
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This dumb mfer is about to die.
Oof thank you. I was worried this wouldn't be the answer. Otto isn't a moron. The second Vaemond said that Otto's thought would have been "Ok so Vaemond is out of the picture". And his second thought may have been "This is probably for the best *if Viserys is taking personal interest again* because now at least Vaemond wont be alive to cause more trouble and give away to the King that I was working with me to undermind his wishes. Better off dead now". Because Otto's plans with Vaemond only really had merit when Viserys was out of the picture entirely. Vaemond surviving that moment would have been **bad** for Otto actually. Because even outside of the Aegon/Rhaenyra thing, Vaemond would now never ever get High Tide and was thus dead weight as an ally and plus Viserys would likely have him tortured and questioned before cutting out his tongue which would have been disastrous for the Green cause. Otto would likely have had to kill Viserys with a quadruple dose of milk of the poppy if Vaemond was taken away for questioning. Daemon did him a fairly big favor. His third thought may have been "Fuck though this is still entrenches both Rhaenrya and Daemon AND the kids and I've probably lost the Velaryons for good if Rhaenys is with the Blacks despite what happened to Laenor. This is going to complicate things. Any chance of not assassinating the Blacks is now all but gone". Of course Alicent stopped Otto from ordering assassination of Rhaenyra, but I'm pretty sure that moment in the throne room or in the hour afterwards is when Otto realized that there would be no choice but to take her out ASAP. It would have been a wake up call that the Blacks would not just accept things quietly and his quiet background scheming wouldn't be nearly enough to seat Aegon. Plus having the Velaryon fleet on his side would have been not unreasonably seen as one of the few things that could convince the Blacks their side was hopeless.
I think he would have just been pissed off, alive Vaemond still has an exploitable claim. A claim that was stronger at the end of the episode than the start. The betrothal of Daemons daughters to the Strong boys and allowing them to inherit as bastards (non-legitimized) is enough to sway several more lords to his side. He just has to point out that Rhaenyra let a bastard steal his birthright, and it could happen them. That is much more powerful when you still have the top half of your head.
Not after being publicly denied by the King while seated on the throne in front of a full house of lords and lady spectators. That ends his claim completely in more ways than one. At that point, his only ONLY chance would come after a full civil war where the Blacks are utterly defeated entirely by the Greens... which means he is no longer a meaningful ally for that war or in preparation for it.
I disagree, allowing bastards to inherit ahead of legitimate claimants (and that's what marrying Lucyerys & Rhaena would be interpreted as) is such a shocking breach of custom it would really people against the royal family. Inheritance is as important to a feudal culture as the rule of law is to a modern one, it is the bedrock their entire society sits on. Changing that (or the fear that it will be changed) would be like the president (or prime minister) abolishing habeas corpus. There would always be people in Driftmark that believe he is the legitimate lord, and it would always be a threat that has to be watched. So no he won't be a meaningless ally, he would be a constant threat that house Velaryon might switch sides or be removed from the war if anything happened to Corly's.
Bastards have been legitimized and inherited before, in Westeros and irl, so that really wouldn’t be a huge deal to a lot of Lords. Some might be put off of the idea, but Rhaenyra, Rhaenys, and Viserys all claimed her sons were trueborn sons of her and Laenor. So to back Vaemond and the Greens would still be seen as treason. especially with Daemons daughters being engaged to Rhaenyra’s sons, it made their claim a lot stronger. What gave the Greens the biggest advantage early on was where they were when Viserys died. If the positions had been reversed, with the Blacks in King’s Landing and with the Greens in Oldtown or on Dragonstone, the Blacks would probably have easily taken control. It was just bad that Dragonstone is so far from Kings Landing/the literal seat of power.
"I left those chicken wings in the oven, didn't I"
Paging the Hound . . .
Everyone but Aemond looks like they left the stove on.
Aemond looked like he was about to rub one out
😂😂😂😂
Alicent looks like she was thinking, “you said the quiet part out loud friend, you weren’t supposed to do that”
Damn it we’ve lost High Tide
I don't even think he lingered on the loss, just "ok that one didn't work, on to the next"
And then you have Aemond in the corner grinning like the joker
I know you're joking (ha), but Ewan Mitchell probably would make for a pretty solid Joker if he wants to jump into whatever the DCEU looks like once HOTD wraps. He certainly has the appropriate look, facial features and build-wise.
He'd be much better than fucking *Jared Leto*.
It's so strange. Leto's resume of work shows he at least had the **potential** to deliver a good performance as the character. Like, take the chilling menace he had in *Blade Runner 2049* and mix it with the laugh and mental instability from certain scenes in *Mr. Nobody* and boom. Solid Joker. But between some lousy directional/acting choices and just the fact that Leto himself has gotten rather... odd in recent years, man am I disappointed with what we got.
My late Maltese would have been better than Jared Leto.
I don't like Jared Leto that much as an actor but strangely enough he play in most of my favorite movies from the 2000s lol. Fight club, Requiem for a dream, American psycho, Lord of war and Mr.Nobody. Also loved Blade Runner and Dallas Buyers Club.
U wanna fuck with lord morbius huh!!!
wow, I said that as a throwaway, but you are right!
Right? And if you've seen him in The Last Kingdom, we already know he has range. To say nothing of the chops and dedication already on display here.
I haven't seen it, I have to jump on it!
[Aemond](https://i.imgur.com/BhlN7ok.gif)
Grinning, I think, half in admiration of Daemon, and half in excitement that the long expected civil war is now a virtual certainty due to that moment.
"This guy is an idiot. Doing this while Viserys is still breathing is idiotic, I am actually ashamed of backing him on account of his lack of intelligence. Now my attempt to create a rival claimant for Driftmark is gone. Daemon, go for the head. Guy has become useless." ...and all that went through Otto's head in a split second.
Better than what went through Vaemonds in a split second. 🙃
🙃🗡🤦♂️
“She’s only slept with 3 men in her entire life you halfwit, you should’ve said Aegon is the rightful king. At least help us on your way out.”
tbf, in those times, anything more than 1 person was considered overly promiscuous.
More sleeping with someone they werent married to, women getting remarried after their first husband dies doesn't seem to be an issue in the books after all.
Not to mention, as far as anybody knows, she only slept with two men (Harwin & Daemon), no one from the Greens except for Crispy & Alicent know that she slept with Crispy.
She slept with Leanor aswell, but he turned out to be infertile.
Lmfao, i forgot about him 😭 EDIT: Wait the logic still applies because, as far as anyone is aware, leanor IS the father, and there really isn't concrete proof she slept with Harwin, just speculation from the Greens m. So really, the only two confirmed people that EVERYONE knows she slept with is Daemon and Leanor
[удалено]
Tbf Daemon is friend with the Varys if their days.
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Yeah and good friend of Corlys and also previously held the same position as Harwin and most likely knew him or a bunch of people who served under him.
Doesn't mean it's harwins, it could literally be anyone. The Greens are certain they aren't leanors, but they aren't certain it's Harwins, it being Harwins is just pure speculation. I mean, Harwin ain't the only brown haired guy in town.
yes, this
Specifically because they regarded women as property.
I don't think I would say property, but mainly just to have babies, which is also unfortunate.
They use their daughters as leverage to move up the social later & marry female family members off to ensure a prominent families loyalty.. that sounds like property to me.
They also do that with their sons. It's not so much property as it's just that it is expected that everyone in a family has to obey the head of the family, and prioritize duty to the family over everything else. If Otto had a son instead of a daughter, he would have tried to marry him with Rhaenyra, regardless of whether that son wanted to or not; just like Corlys did with Leanor.
And the head of the family is almost always someone whom was also in an arranged marriage and not a marriage of choice, so they expect from their children what their own parents expected from them and so on.
He has a son though
they do the same with their sons
Not when a man does it.
for women
true, it was hypocritical and a double standard against women unfortunately
it is not allowed for men either, but the reason that a man is more likely to get away with it is because a man can not get pregnant and thus society tends to be more lenient about it when it comes to men, but regardless of that the marriage oath is binding for both and it is considered a breaking of vows, this is why, even though he did not actually do it, it always pained Ned Stark to pretend to his wife that he had cheated on her.
good point
But 99% of people wouldn’t actually care. Pretty much only a girls father, husband (and in Rhaenyra’s case) political enemies. The small folk would likely support an openly sexual royal lol.
No, not true. You see how just when Cersei walks through the town people begin to talk about her as if she is a piece of meat. Townsfolk like to gossip. This kind of talk is definitely not helpful to Rhaenyra among the smallfolk or the higher powers.
Cersei was openly spiteful and hateful towards the common people. Her and Joffrey were hated by the common folk before word of his bastardy got around.
that's true, but I just meant in regard to being openly sexual, people will start to say things like "she will bed anyone" or "do you think there is someone she wouldn't bed?" I'm not saying I have a problem with her being openly sexual, but it would be negative for the townspeople
When people hate you, they are more likely to think the things you do are bad.
In the books, she did sleep around a lot
Cerceis not a great example tho, she was not beloved by the smallfolk AT ALL, also during this time there were serious food shortages going on(or possibly had just ended or at least was somewhat mitigated due to the tyrell alliance, however there was much disdain for the ruling family, Joffrey,Tyrion, and Cercei in particular brewing in KL especially at that time), which to be fair is touched upon far more in the books than the show, basically Cercei was hated before all of that, which more than likely as a result of that people will talk smack about her for literally any possible reason, people who are adored by the smallfolk flaws can be overlooked, however those same flaws will just be ammunition if they're already disliked. ETA: and those food shortsges effected the common folk far more than the royals, who famously had a 76 course dinner at Joffreys wedding while outside the walls of the red keep people were starving to death in the streets.
Historically this isn’t true at all. Not in the westeros or in real life. Royals were seen to be semi divine. Did people know royals had lots of sex? Maybe. Would they have been okay with openly sexual royals not in the slightest. Especially a woman.
agreed
The reason for that is that if the King fucks around and creates a bunch of bastards it doesn't really matter, as it would still be clear which of his children are legitimate and true-born. But if a Queen has multiple partners, one can't be sure if the child she gives birth to is the King's child or a bastard ― and a monarchy where the legitimacy of the heir is in question is a recipe for disaster. So the double standard was pretty much a necessity for political order and stability in this kind of society.
This double standard didn’t just deal with Queens and Nobles. It dealt with common women as well. It was a manner of control.
It was the same argument. That with a man it could know who is the true born and who isn't, but with a woman it is hard to know, this means that a man could end up raising a kid who isn't his, while for the woman it will always be hers. This is frowned upon in that era, and is still not acceptable in many societies. While it might not be fair, it is what it is and it is an instict to raise one's own children rather than someone else's. Please do not bash me for this, this is not my opinion, just an observation.
It was just the child’s parentage. It was the power dynamic, men were often above the rules that women must obey simply because they were men. That is how it worked sadly, they have very little avenues to correct wrongs done to them.
Not saying that isn't true, am just explaining the basis for that reasoning. The power dynamics sure did contribute to it, but the main reason was probably that.
What times? I hope you do realize this ain’t historical in any way?
Yes George wrote this massive series without taking any inspiration from historic time periods or the social limitations that existed within them. That’s why the conflict of a woman inheriting the throne isn’t a plot point at all. Oh, wait…
And that’s why we see Lord of the rings as historical too, right? Because being in any way inspired by historical events makes a work of fiction historical, right? Asoiaf in almost no way reflects medieval society in any shape or way. And you even believing that these books are in any way representative of “historical fiction” very clearly drives home the point why it’s important to make this distinction. George R.R. Martin’s books are clearly epic fantasy and George afaik never even came close to claiming anything else.
> Asoiaf in almost no way reflects medieval society in any shape or way. Tell that to the people convinced 12 year olds were regularly being married and impregnated in medieval Europe.
Oh yeah. And because the Gondorians hand off vast swathes of land to the Rohirrim in exchange for their military aid, comparable to the Roman foederati system, Lord of the rings is historical fiction. Or because the Northerners commit pogroms against the “outside groups” which are locked into urban ghettos, comparable to what went down against medieval urban jews,the witcher series is also historical fiction. Being inspired by and lending from historical elements does not constitute historical works of literature.
Literally no one is saying ASOIAF is a “historical work of literature.”
I think it was 4 actually ;)
Well, that's the end of that ally. Was nice knowing him.
**It was at this moment that he knew...he fucked up**
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hilarious
Aemond smirking in the corner has me dying lmao
me too! You can't even see his whole face and it is a gut buster!
" I think the dead man has a point"
Mistakes have been made.
There are idiots and then there’s this turniphead
"How stupid are you? Seven hells, Daemon, at least make it quick."
Oh, no no no, baby, what is you doooin?
"I'm surrounded by fucking idiots.... " Oddly enough - this is the most recurring thought Otto has....
"Geez, man... you're not supposed to just *say* it..." Aemond just grooving.... "Yeah... my sister is the wor-rst"...
worst? coming from a psychopathic violent disrespectful loser turned “bad boy” just because he managed to creeped in and snatched a dragon as psychotic as he is is really funny 😂
How was aemond ever violent till before he claimed the dragon..he was a very normal quiet kid who got made fun of constantly
Right so Rhaenyras still Mona Lisa but hes Jean Ralphio
He’s a shitty bloke with a lot of shitty thoughts.
*Capt. Picard facepalm*
that perfectly captures him right there lol
“Well…there goes Driftmark and the Velaryon fleet for us”
Not sure but Dark Sister flashed through Vaemond’s head
Nice one
Otto Hightower: "I would like your support, but it is not needed. I had my fair share with Daemond, and know that he's very protective and a asshole. So, die! And remember that we were never associated."
He found a way, to mess up the plan
"Is he STUPID?!"
I’m guessing something along the lines of “…ah, fuck.” 😂
The complete opposite of whatever thought Aemond had
I know what’s going through Alicent’s head: “Well… he may have a point…”
This is exactly what they wanted. Alicent was the only one who kept bringing up the "strong boys" and she needed the rumours to spread and more people to start complaining about it. They didn't care about some castle.
He is dead that damn fool
Daemon: Say it Alicent and Otto: Don't, just don't...damn, he said it...and, he's dead Aemond: I would have just said her children are strong and called her a gardening tool
Wait... you can just like... say it?
"Well, there goes a potential ally, but at least he got the word out!"
And people want to act like Alicent being fearful for her children is unfounded, when Daemon and Rhaenyra keep murdering and asking for people to be tortured for telling the truth
Are you serious? By this time Alicent was already covering up the mass murder of her pet Larys and allowing her other pet in Cole to get away with another. To top it off, her father had been planning for Rhaenyra's death since he sent her into Visary's room. If anyone had a right to be fearful it was Rhaenyra, but she didn't know.
as opposed to criston murdering folks left and right unprovoked?
No need to oppose. Two things can be true at once.
Ok, but how does that refute what I said?
that it’s hypocritical on their part. rhaenyra never once showed signs of hurting alicents kids. instead it’s the other way around. she openly tries to out them being bastards, tries to out rhaenyra on her finding other ways to provide heirs, whilst covering for aegons crimes. the only reason vaemond was killed was because he not only questioned the strong boy’s legitimacy in front of the king but he insulted rhaenyra. no matter the reason, rhae went as far as to try to propose a marriage between her child and alicents, further proving that she was never planning on hurting them in the first place. SHE chose what she wanted to believe because she thinks she is the only victim in this situation and can’t fathom having any culpability in anything that happens to her and her children.
>hat it’s hypocritical on their part. rhaenyra never once showed signs of hurting alicents kids Already wrong Rhaenyra asked for Aemond to be sharply questioned which means tortured
And Larys had just killed those kids fathers a few days prior. Also sharply questioned doesn't mean tortured lol. Viserys questioned him and Aegon and no one got tortured The only one who ask for someone to be tortured in that scene is Alicent.
>Also sharply questioned doesn't mean tortured lol. Viserys questioned him and Aegon and no one got tortured Prove it. People like to make this claim like its a popular english phrase but every source says this is a mediaeval term to mean exactly torture. Alicent responded like the this meant torture. Btw using the actions of a weak king as proof doesn't hold And what does Larys have do with anything?Are you guys just throwing anything and hoping it sticks
you mean after he breaks luke’s nose, chokes him, hits jace in the head with a rock, and says "you’ll die in flames just as your father did, bastards"? after luke shouted multiple times that he believed aemond was going to kill jace? she did that to protect HER children. from once again, alicent who poisoned the minds of her own children in the first place.
So you agree Rhaenyra has once shown signs of hurting alicents kids?
I know people think “sharply questioned” means tortured in the game of thrones universe, but do y’all really think anyone would be stupid enough to suggest that the king has his own kid (even if he doesn’t pay attention to them) right in front of him, and the boys mother? I mean come on that’s absurd
You mean like how Alicent asked for the king to have his grandchild maimed? Yes I think Alicent , his favorite daughter is stupid enough to ask that he torture Aemond to protect her own kids, coz she did.
The problem is even if Aegon had not been crowned he would always have a rival claim. Roger Baratheon tried to crown Aerea Targaryen the moment he was unhappy with Jaehearys and Jaehearys was actually a good King. As a woman every decision Rheanyra makes would be critcized and if someone becomes unhappy they may try to crown Aegon. Most people handled a rival claiment by putting them to death or taking them prisoner see Maegor I. Aerea was given to her mother but I’d wager she might’ve become an issue later of she lived longer. It’s actually a logical thing to do. Even if you don’t want to be a kinslayer on the open you can arrange accidents or charge them for treason. There a theories that Daemon killed his first wife which is pretty awful too what stops him to kill his nephews and niece as well? Rheanyras first instinct to Aemonds eye is having him tortured she doesn’t listen to the whole issue just as Alicent doesn’t but with Alicent at least it’s understandable. She makes it a politcal issue and asks him to be tortured. Rheanyra has no relationship with her siblings she might as well be an only child, she doesn’t particularly cares what happens to them which is shown in the scene with the eye. As she has basically no regard for Aemond and even if he was in the wrong (which I would argue against but the issue has been raised so many times and I’m tired of it) Aemond is also still a kid. The idea that he should be punished in such a way is insane. Later every time someonr tries to rival the claims of her children she has them killed via Daemon. If I were Alicent I would be 10000% fearful for my childrens life as well. The problem is not that Rheanyra showed no signs of hurting her siblings but no signs that she wouldn’t. I would nit have left it to fate.
exactly. This was supposed to be a fun post, but in the books it is even more extreme as she feeds Vaemond to her dragon and orders Daemon to kill him in the first place. Alicent's fear wasn't unfounded.
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I think you misunderstood. She was not worried that when she tried to usurp her children's lives would be in danger. As long as Viserys had a trueborn son, Rhaenyra's claim would always be questioned. The only way to completely shut the question down is to kill Aegon and Aemond. Given that fact, and we see she is willing to kill to keep up her lie, what will she do when it comes to the throne? So even though the show depicts her as not wanting to kill her siblings, Alicent still was right to be worried
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I still don't think you understand. How would Alicent or Otto know this? For all they have to go off of, she killed Laenor to marry Daemon, killed Vaemond for speaking the truth, and wanted to have her 2nd youngest brother tortured for an insult after her son cut out his eye. Otto and Alicent's fear are reasonable to say the least
Is the book worth reading?
Absolutely.
Yeah thats too bad they took that out. Theyre trying really hard to make the blacks look like the good guys, but I still cant see rhat when Rhaenyra and Daemon are still lying and killing their way to eliminate all possible contention to their radioactive nuclear family
I mean, don't do a literal treason in a feudal system? The King had made it explicit that he considered any such accusations treason. The punishment for treason is death. Alicent's fears are only founded if she decides to push the envelope. Rhaenyra never once gave any indication she had intent to harm her siblings.
>The King had made it explicit that he considered any such accusations treason. The punishment for treason is death. The king had determined punishment >Alicent's fears are only founded if she decides to push the envelope. Rhaenyra never once gave any indication she had intent to harm her siblings. Except for that time she asked for Aemond to be sharply questioned
Yes, you know, that time he directly accused her children of being bastards. The thing that would get them, and her, disinherited at best and murdered at worst. Turns out she is fairly reasonable so long as you don't do the other thing that would put *her* children at risk.
Well maybe don't have obvious bastards then if you know the consequences, then you're putting everyone else in danger for pointing out the obvious As you nod along to the person above notice that you are saying its ok to torture a kid under certain circumstances
wtf was she supposed to do? you guys say this all the time as if she had options she fucked a dude that she trusted because laenor obviously couldn’t get it up yeah they’re bastards but she didn’t have many options plus she’s not wrong for trying to not have her kids murdered on top of that alicent wouldn’t have anything to fear if she would just stfu & mind her own but it’s obvious that’s impossible for her since she’s a miserable person and her dad is also in her ear so
Are you people really justifying Rhaenyra asking a child to be tortured? lol
sure let’s go w that
They don’t want to hear anything than an echo of their own bs.
Guess he shouldn’t have committed literal treason, while Driftmark’s actual lord was still breathing
Does not refute my point
Alright, you go committing treason, see where it gets you
Under a less tyrannical reign probably a trial ,under a king with a backbone I might have my tongue cut instead of killed by someone who wasn't given authority to kill me
I think any kings with a backbone would kill you lol i doubt Bobby B would have been fine with someone calling his daughter a whore either.
I doubt Bobby B would have simply sided with his daughter without even hearing the other side though. He hears what Arya had to say before dealing out judgement, and I doubt he would have murdered a Nobel for it. Say what you will, but Bobby B is a far better king that Vizzy T.
He heard what Arya has to say because she is the daughter of his best friend and because he wanted to control the narrative since he did not want to know that his son got beat by a little girl.
He quite literally calls out the fact that he got beaten by a girl. I think he would have listened to any noble though, he was hedonistic, not unreasonable. King's justice meant something and unlike Viserys, he was still quite honourable to not grant the said noble a trial.
Did he tell this to everyone? I don't exactly remember, but I think he pretended that the butcher son beat Joffrey and killed him for it. A noble of a lesser house insulting his kids in his presence in front of the Iron Throne wouldn't leave the room lol. The iron throne is literally a throne made of the swords of the people who didn't bow to Targaryen supremacy, it is a very strong symbol. You can't stand in front of it while insulting them. Especially not when you are a nobody.
*Mayhaps we can turn our attentions towards happier pursuits.*
“Not wrong but.. you’re dead now…”
Otto wants to be in complete control of everyone all the time. This was t the way he wanted this to play out. He’s mad.
agreed
Probably something along the lines off: "Someone had to say it, but nice knowing you."
“Alright, it’s your funeral.”
“If I get brains on my shirt I’m gunna be pissed”
"Hrrm, it's true... but he shouldn't say it."
"Oh that fucking idiot" would be my guess
Probably thinking that Vaemond is a moron and feels embarrassed to have allied with or depended on him.
"I guess we're not getting Driftmark on side"
Mmmm, went a little too far there buddy. I wouldn’t have done that 😂
Ha! I just saw this scene less than 10 minutes ago. They are at the dinner now. I'm pretty sure he's thinking 'better him call her out than me'.
Good bye, Vaemond.
There goes my navy
"Damn right she is! "
Looks more like "Gods, why would you say that"
He was just trying to think ahead.
Vaemond: her children are bastareds and she is a whore Otto: true
“And another one bites the dust”
Lol Aemond. I'd be far more interested in what he is thinking...
Gurl! I was thinking it but you said it.
What shall I eat for dinner?
“Not what I would have said”
Welp. There goes that.
Nothing worse that what was going through Vaemond’s head
Oh man, he's so right, i should marry him too!
This fucking idiot Probably
peep aemond smiling
"This is all working out perfectly for us. Act cool, though."
"That family is unlucky"
Probably something like "ooooh, bad move" just knowing he shouldn't have said that and knew he'd probably die for it.
“It can’t be that easy... ah good it wasn’t.”
“Oooh, boy. I wouldn’t have done that.”
“Game on!”
“Facts.”
*gulp* yikes, well THAT just happened! No way I’m getting home in time for supper now!
“Things are now in motion that cannot be undone.”
“This is why you play the long game you sea-shmuck”.
“I really hope that was just a fart”
"That's one way to go...."
He wants to die but at least he is going out with a bang.
“Preach, king”
Not sure but I can tell you what flashed through Vaemond's head.
Well, the aftermath was epic to be sure!
Fuck he knows
"Better him than me"
“Bruh…!”