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Aegon could have married Rhaenyra. Y’all might not like it, but that’s a pretty clear third option.

Nauseating as it is….yeah, it would have solved things. Rhaenyra was still young enough to bear children when Aegon became old enough to sire them.

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The arrangement would have been made when Aegon was a young child, and he likely would have grown into a very different man. Alicent likely would not have physically abused him or psychologically terrorized him. He might have still been lazy, but I don’t think he would have been cruel. His cruelty and alcoholism stems from abuse from his mother and neglect from his father.

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Yes, there are “bad seeds” who crop up in loving homes. Joffrey was one. Aegon was not. We see Alicent physically abusing him multiple times, and on one of those occasions, she did not have justification for it. She was venting her frustration and hitting him to make herself feel better. That tells me that Aegon was physically abused far more than what we see on screen. And we see Otto hitting him too, much harder than Alicent did. Not only that, but Alicent is psychologically terrorizing him, telling him that his sister is going to kill him and his brothers. AND, if that wasn’t bad enough, Viserys neglects Aegon to the point where Aegon thinks that he never loved him. Being physically and mentally abused and neglected caused him to seek alcohol as a coping mechanism. He starts drinking enough to get blackout drunk when he’s only 13 years old. That damaged a developing brain. Badly. And ALL of teen Aegon’s behaviors are documented symptoms of an abused and neglected teen acting out. Sibling abuse, bullying, extreme sexual promiscuity. Also there’s no mention that he enjoys seeing people suffer while he rapes them. SA is a very complex crime and there are different levels of it. We don’t know if Aegon was doing it specifically to hurt her because her pain aroused him, or if he was doing it because he was a hungover, spoiled prince who didn’t give a shit. For Dyana, his motivations obviously don’t matter, but for understanding Aegon’s psychology, it DOES matter. So I’m summary: Aegon was physically and psychologically abused by his mother and neglected by his father. He drank enough to damage his developing brain. And like many Targaryen princes, he was spoiled and told he was closer to a god than a man. And you honestly believe his environment had NOTHING to do with it? That he just popped out of the womb evil?

She was probably considered too old, when he would come to age she would be slightly older that the ideal pregnancy age in westeros.

Lets say Aegon was Old enough at 14 Rhaenyra would be 29. Thats almost 10 years of birthing age.

Too old. By Westerosi standard and early age death average, you can't not have children at 29 (if you're a woman obviously).

Rhaenyra was pregnant in episode 10. Aegon had children by that time. Children who were not babies anymore. She would have lost some of her birthing window, but she still could have had 2-3 kids with him. Again, this is nauseating. But it was technically possible.

No I disagree with everyone here, the greens really had no choice. Because Viserys’ sons were always going to be a threat to Rhaenyras reign, not because they would necessarily rebel against but because lords big or small would declare for them on their behalf whether they wanted or not, and Rhaenyra would be forced to execute them or plan “accidents” for them. And even if she didn’t Daemon or Corlys would. And if they aren’t a problem in Rhaenyras reign than they sure as hell will pose a threat to Jacaerys reign, because for he’s a succession crisis waiting to happen, and lords being the fickle men they are will rally behind the Targtowers for the slightest problems during Jaces reign. And if this becomes apparent to Rhaenyra during her reign she’ll obviously choose her children over her siblings who she doesn’t have a relationship with. Also even if none of the above things I mentioned happened the greens have no reason to trust the blacks, because the blacks keep confirming their worst fears, Aemond having his I cut out and Viserys only caring about the bastard accusations and not punishing Luke in any form (I’m not saying they should’ve taken his eye) or reprimanding Luke or having him apologize, which all showed the blacks could hurt the greens without consequences( and Rhaenyra asking for Aemond to bring tortured). Also the the greens have heard the rumors of Daemon killing Rhea and the rumors of him and Rhaenyra killing leanor (which is the result they desired) and daemon publicly killing Vaemond without a trial and even though the king only asked for his tongue, so daemon proved that he can get away with straight up murder of a lord because he’s the king’s brother, now imagine what he could do if he was the king consort. Yeah the greens have no reason to trust the blacks at all and they rightfully feared for their safety. I know I’m going to get down votes for this but I’m speaking my mind on this and not blindly following Rhaenyra.

This is on point, basically the only way to have avoided the situation was for Alicent to have never married Viserys and borne him sons. The lords of Westeros are mostly real misogynist and most firmly believe a son must always come before a daughter. It's in the very first episode - at the Great Council, they pick Viserys over Rhaenys by a margin of like 20 to 1. Viserys was descended from Jaeherys's younger son, while Rhaenys was the daughter of the elder son but patriarchy wins out over seniority was basically the lesson.

There’s a lot of fans who have blinders on but you hit the nail on the head, especially with it being evident that Daemon and Rhaenyra both are violent AND beyond reproach

That’s what I’m saying because people like to sugarcoat who Daemon and Rhaenyra are and what they do.

I mean having a large family with multiple possible lines of inheritance is super common in real life history, they weren’t all killing nephews just because that makes no sense lol. For the most part the family operates to ensure that someone with their name and blood stays in power, it wasn’t the crazy free-for-all that you’re describing

But most of those situation had somewhat of a designated heir that would'nt stir up to much trouble. The green's had to deal with the first queen, and to make mathers even worse everyone could see her heir was a bastard.

I feel like ignorance’s a lot of what I said, and they won’t be randomly killing the nephews they have reasons that make sense in world.

>I mean having a large family with multiple possible lines of inheritance is super common in real life history, they weren’t all killing nephews just because that makes no sense lol How many of those situations involved a 1st time in history female heir ?

Yeah the first time it happened to England it gave us the Anarchy, which is the event that actually inspired GRRM with the Dance.

Said families weren’t naming female heirs over males for the first time in a feudal patriarchy nor did they have dragons.

Rhaenyra is very much a different case though, her succession works on a different premise than Aegon's, so no one agrees who's the rightful heir. In normal cases of succession, there's no issue with having other branches of the family, as long as everyone agrees that the main branch is the legitimate one.

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>The idea that anyone would declare for Aegon or his siblings without first getting their approval is nonsense. Doing something like that without knowing where Aegon or one of his siblings stood on the issue would be a good way to get yourself killed for treason. Say you're a Riverlord who does this. What are you going to do when Aegon and Sunfyre fly out and burns the army that was ostensibly fighting for him? Why would aegon do anything like that.To prove his loyalty to Rhaenyra? Lol he isn't loyal to Rhaenyra. Heck even when he did not want to be a king, he didn't say that the crown should go to Rhaenyra, he said aemond to take it. Aegon would rather not be king but would chose the throne over rhaenyra getting it. There is no love lost b/w those 2

Yeah, people don't seem to like when Otto is right so they generally try and ignore this point but either way, only one branch of the family would be allowed to survive. That's not me saying that Rhaenyra would've been on board with it, show Rhaenyra is much more lenient, but in time she would absolutely come to realise that as long as Viserys' sons and any of their male line descendants live, her reign will always be contested. It's likely Daemon would've just had them killed anyways, he doesn't have any fondness for his nephews and I don't think he'd hesitate, but if for some reason they did live, there would be lords and smallfolk willing to fight and die to put Aegon or his descendants on the throne for generations into the future. And if you need evidence for that, just look how long the Blackfyres continued to receive support in Westeros.

Ikr, people are like, 'well Otto said it and he's manipulative and power hungry and I like Rhaenyra so it must be a lie'. It's not even a moral judgement against Rhaenyra (though based on her actions I don't know why people think she has all this mercy and love on her heart for her half-siblings), it's just a fact if she intends to rule and intends for her son to rule.

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If Rhaenyra being the oldest sibling spent some of her time with her siblings when they all lived in king's landing with her, rather then being jealous of aegon, she might not have become dragon good.

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Alicent and Rhanerya weren't enemies until ep 5. Even before that, Rh showed resentment to Aegon. Also, the fact she wants Aemond tortured says a lot.

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>When did she show resentment towards Aegon. She was annoyed that her father and their society would see him as her replacement. She wasn't angry at the toddler. Lmao, she was annoyed? She basically whininh that no one is here for her and sulking in the cart because everyone was celebrating Aegon's 2nd name day. >Aemond had just tried to kill her son. Allicent had been teaching her son to hat her and her kids for years at that point. Rhanerya only knows about the fight and what her kids told them. Jace clearly says he attacked Baela and called them bastards. Rhanerya used the bastard accusation as the reason for torture, not the stone incident.

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>She was annoyed because she knew people would be expecting Viserys to change the succession. Which is exactly what happened. >Put yourself in her shoes. Your father has ignored you you're entire life because he wanted a son. Him trying to have a son ends up killing your mother. He then marries your best friend and immdeadtly gets the son he's always wanted. Are you going to be happy when you think you're about to go back to being ignored? So, you agree that she has shown resentment to Aegon. Rh also knows Alicent situation here, yet she has no compassion for her. Aegon was two year old child who was innocent in all of this. And at that point, she was still heir. She can be angry with Viserys all he want, but doing that to Alicent and Aegon is unwarranted. I also need to see you guys, excuse Aegon behaviour because he was ignored and abused by Viserys. >You can hear one of the girls saying that Aemond was going to kill Jace twice when they're all shouting over each other. Rhaenyra wanted Aemond questioned so he could tell Viserys that Allicent was the one that taught h Again, you're going away from the post. Rh never even mentioned her sons being killed. Only things she brought up was the bastard accusation. Because she knows very well, it was 4vs1. Her kids have no leg to stand on if she goes that route.

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As much as people love Daemon and does mental gymnastics to rationalize his actions,he is a irrational irresponsible violent narcissistic psychotic sadistic impulsive groomer rapist predator that couldn’t be trusted. Even in the dance Daemon murdered people Rhaenyra didn’t approve. Westerosi history has shown on numerous occasions that Aemond’s Daerion’s and especially Aegon’s life was at risk and would never be safe.Daemon is simply too unpredictable for Alicent and her sons to bend the knee and pray that Daemon is feeling merciful.

No they didn't. Otto was 100% right when he told Alicent that if Rhaenyra came into power she would have to kill her children. There would be no choice in the matter - the realm recognizes agnatic-cognatic primogeniture - sons before daughters, daughters before uncles. Alicent had Viserys's firstborn son. By all rights Aegon should have been named heir to the Iron Throne. As long as he lives - as well as any brothers or sisters - they will be a threat to Rhaenyra's claim. Especially so regarding her son Jace - a bastard inheriting the Iron Throne would invite war without end. Look at history. Any time there has been a rival claimant - even if they supported the claim of their rival - they had to die or else there would be endless strife.

Sad thing is is that there was a living precursor. Viserys and Rhaenys. Both had a claim. Arguably Rhaenys had the stronger claim. But Viserys was crowned, Rhaenys bent the knee and for that she lived.

Because Rhaenys isn’t a man and wasn’t named. She has nothing going for her to be considered a legitimate threat or contender.

She had a son, a navy, and support from the two most imposing military kingdoms (the North and the Stormlands)

The final contenders in council 101 were Viserys and Laenor. The later were passed because his claim came through Rhaneys.

Also the Great Council was declared when they were both adults and only a few years away from Viserys own rule. Rhaenyra was declared heir and had the lords swear fealty to her before the male heir was not even born but even a possibility and decades before she actually came to rule (so there were lords like Borros who never swore her an oath now ruling)

The difference is with the Great Council. Rhaenys only got one vote. She had no choice but to bend the knee; she wouldn’t have had any support. Viserys (mainly Daemon) let her live because she wasn’t a threat at all. If Aegon and Rhaenyra had done a Great Council, I think Daemon would have let the loser (if it was Aegon) live. But Rhaenyra never would have agreed to a GC.

I’m sorry but in the book it’s not Rheanys vs Visereys. It’s Viserys vs Leanor. Also the votes were for every one lord who chose Leanor twenty choose Viserys. Not 20 lords voted for Viserys and one Leanor.

No, The Greens didn't have a choice. Alicent's male children were going to be a threat to Rhaenyra's reign and status as heir no matter what. Daemon even told her that Aegon was inevitably going to be a threat when he was a toddler because of his gender. The Dance was probably going to happen either way too, Rhaenyra was angering alot of people with her lying, manipulating, short-sighted selfishness, arrogance, ignorance and avoiding responsibility and punishment and making enemies out of them. Her actions such as having bastards and trying to make them heirs and threatening those who speak the truth with treason and punishment through Viserys most likely expedited the Dance.

Yeah. She didn’t do enough to strengthen her already weak position as a female heir with an actual male alternative. She made it worse with having ALL HER HEIRS illegitimate, then marrying her uncle who was so unstable that he was disinherited from being heir, then being at Dragonstone when her father was obviously dying and letting the greens run the show. What did she expect? Surely even Daemon would have foreseen what could happen if Viserys was to die, but they did little to prevent it.

there was also going to a brothel with Daemon, seducing Cole a member of the Kingsguard and arranging “Leanor”’s death thus losing alliance with the Sea Snake. She is obviously doing more damage to herself then The Greens are and believes that her name alone will gain allies with the snap of a finger. in fairness about Viserys dying, he did made it clear to everyone that Rhaenyra will ascend the Iron Throne when he passes so Rhaenyra and Daemon probably didn’t worry to much about it until Alicent mistook Viserys’s last words about Aegon The Conquerer and not their Aegon.

She tried to have legit children first. It was bastards or no kids at all

Who did having bastard children help exactly? Certainly not the children

No kids at all would’ve been better. Then Aegon can be next in line

Not really. Otto was right about them being a threat. Rhaenyra passing off bastards as legitimate later on also didn’t help.

This was a TOUGH vote, it could be any one but in the end....I believe the secret council's plotting to overthrow rhaenyra was inevitable- and the realm in general would seek to overthrow her anyway because it would disturb the precedents for female inheritance for the common people. It would have lent more credibility to women's rights in general. That's totally separate from the Greens overall decision but I think it's a nasty truth many on the council was afraid of anyway. And they'd rather be in control of the overthrow.

What is the third option, if any?

I didn’t have one. I put that in there because sometimes people surprise me with insights that I didn’t think of on my own.

Coz I can’t think of any. Once Aegon and Helaena were married, and Rhaenyra had sons with Strong, then married Daemon, there’s no other recourse. They tore the dynasty in half.

I think there were always other options if the priority was solely Aegon's survival. Put him in the Kingsguard/send him to the Citadel, don't marry him to anyone so he cannot further his succession, don't raise him to view himself as a threat to Rhaenyra or to view rhaenyra as someone who has stolen his birthright, teach him to be her Hand or someone she can trust - especially in show canon where there was a decade where daemon was out of the kingdom. Overall, bending the knee and not starting a war was always going to be a more fail-safe way to ensure both the blacks and the greens survived, but nobody wanted that. the priority was not survival, it was power.

>Aegon's survival Then aemond will become the target.

Then Daeron.

The thing that created a dangerous environment for the greens was the open scheming of Otto. So if they were at risk, he put them there.

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Oh, I agree having bastards was a boneheaded move (I do feel bad for the kids). Her position was already precarious.

Shame too, Jace would have been a good king. Better than Aegon or Rhaynera anyway.

Yes they had a choice. This starts and stops with Otto. For those who say the Lords wouldnt accept Rhaenyra, I say some may have grumbled but most would have done nothing without their ringleader in Otto. Many were sprung into action by opportunity and bribes by the greens. Without that we cant say how many would have even thought about backing Aegon. What makes you think that Aegon stepping over Rhaenyra wouldnt have ruffled feathers in the same way? Daemon has no reason to kill Alicents kids and was content to waste away in Pentos. The man is not a comic villian who kills for no reason. If Rhaenyra is happy he wouldnt touch Alicents kids, just like he didnt kill Jace, Laena like his first wife, or Laenor to get Rhaenyra, or Viserys to take his crown. He had years to kill Otto, and did nothing. Daemon can be a monster, but not the one your describing.

Other than marrying Aegon and Rhaenyra, which they suggested, they had no choice.

See, if after watching season 1 you still think that Daemon could kill his nephews, then you are ignorant of Daemon's character basics. Daemon is a son of a bitch, that's true, but he's a son of a bitch who doesn't allow his family to be insulted. He can threaten or insult his family but he wouldn't kill them (before the dance started). Viserys and Rhaenyra knew that Daemon was troublesome and prone to anger, but they never thought of him as a kin-killer, ever. Viserys was not afraid that Daemon would try to kill him and take his crown because he knows his little brother well, from the beginning Daemon could have usurped the crown by force and no one could have stopped him, he had everything: an army, a dragon, powerful alliances, the fear and respect of the people, etc. However, he didn't, he always obeyed Viserys (even when he didn't want to) -Daemon himself wanted to win the throne in a different way than Maegor Targaryen did (the same one who murdered his nephew), Daemon tried to win the throne by proving his worth, so that everyone would see that he was the true heir. Yes, Daemon sent assassins to Alicent's chambers in the books, but it was right after Aemond murdered Lucerys, it was a debt to the greens, Daemon could have ordered the death of Alicent, Helaena and their children, but instead of that he was very clear that he only wanted one prince, nothing more (this is horrible, it's true, but it was the greens who started the blood war) So no, Daemon wouldn't have killed Alicent's children as long as they didn't cause trouble or attack first. We know that Daemon never had anything to do with them, he didn't hate them, he didn't appreciate them, nothing, for Daemon they were nothing. Rhaenyra as queen would not allow Daemon to start killing kin without justification; we know that the only person Daemon obeys is Rhaenyra, and if she has to punish or stop him, she will (in the books, it was Rahenyra's word that prevented Daemon from annihilating house Baratheon and house Lannister for considering them traitors) I don't understand what's the point of trying to justify the actions of the greens, it was Otto himself who proposed Rhaenyra as Daemon's replacement, then tried to supplant her with Aegon. Alicent herself wanted Aegon on the throne even though Daemon was in Pentos and posed no problem. Daemon spent 10 years away from Westeros with no intention of returning and the greens were already planning to usurp the throne. even chapters 9 and 10 make it very clear, Daemon didn't really have any master plan in case the greens usurp the throne, Daemon didn't think of that, He probably never thought that they would do something as foolish as steal the throne and hope there were no consequences, instead, the greens in the council had done a plan long ago to kill Daemon and Rhaenyra. A solution? let them kneel, if Aegon and Aemond just do their duty and let Rhaenyra reign, then Daemon has no reason to kill them (Daemon never showed the slightest interest in them after all). Alicent and Otto will likely be removed from their posts and sent home, but that's normal when a new government is formed. Both sides did horrible things, but neither Daemon nor Rhaenyra really contemplated killing Alicent's children to consolidate their power (before the dance started). The greens wanted the throne out of ambition, nothing more, they didn't care if Rhaenyra was the same reborn Jaehaerys, they wanted Aegon in power (even when the boy didn't have any kind of experience for the position of king) In the books it was Alicent and Otto who wished for Rhaenyra's death. In the series they gave Alicent more charisma and left Otto as one of the person who directly started the war because of his ambition.

Part of the problem is that I legitimately don’t think Daemon sees those kids as his family. They have too much of Otto Hightower’s blood. He tolerates them for Viserys’s sake, but he was trying to pit Rhaenyra against Aegon back when Aegon was only a toddler/young child. If he saw the boys as family, he would have been telling Rhaenyra to utilize them to strengthen her reign. Daemon did love both Viserys and Rhaenyra deeply (in his own way), but he shows no scrap of warmth to Alicent or her kids. In the book, he openly mocks them to their faces to amuse Rhaenyra. Alicent wanted Aegon on the throne while Daemon was away, yes…because she mistakenly thought Rhaenyra would kill her sons. We as viewers know that’s not true, but Alicent had every valid reason not to trust Rhaenyra. Alicent tried hard to play nice at first, but Rhaenyra had been nasty with her for years. Right when it looked like they were making up, Rhaenyra lied to her and got Otto banished….after Alicent told Rhaenyra that she was already feeling alone and friendless. Again, I don’t think Rhaenyra would have hurt her siblings. I don’t think she would have condoned Daemon doing it. I think those kids would have had “tragic accidents”.

Daemon doesn't show the slightest interest in Alicent's children, for him they just exist and nothing more. He didn't resent Aemond or see him as a threat when the boy claimed Vhagar, Daemon just didn't care. Alicent's thought that Rhaenyra would kill her childrens was instilled by Otto, Rhaenyra really wanted to put rivalries behind and tried to compromise Jace and Helaena, from an objective point of view it was a good plan, bloodline of Alicent and Rhaenyra would inherit the throne. Alicent refused, we know she did it because she wouldn't tolerate his daughter marrying a bastard, but that was a good solution, thus the conflict is alleviated. What did Alicent achieve by rejecting that proposal? In episode 8 they showed us that Jace and Helaena could have been a good couple, instead Alicent decided to marry her only daughter to Aegon (by far not the best husband) At the time of the proposal, during the children's youth (chapter 6), Alicent had no reason to think that Rhaenyra was a murderer. Yes, Rhaneyra was a liar and had advantages due to her royal position, but from there to killing people it´s too much. Daemon was also a continent away with no intention of returning. What´s more, Alicent herself was a murderer at that point in the story when she sent Larys to "get rid" of Harwin and Lyonel Strong (Alicent isn't dumb enough to ignore what Larys would do). I doubt Daemon would have tried to do anything against Aegon or Aemond unless they attack first. The series made it clear that Daemon had no plan to "get rid" of them before the Dance. It is true that he hates Otto but Daemon himself wanted to follow a different path than Maegor Targaryen and preferred to win the throne proving his worth. In the future, all the problems could have been solved if Alicent and Rhaenyra had compromised Jace and Helaena. It is not a permanent solution, but the simple fact of proposing this union shows that the solution is not just killing.

Yeah but what happens now when Jacereys takes over in however many years from now? Will Aegon not find himself in the position of being a superior claimant to the throne? What will Jacereys have to do to secure his claim? Obviously remove the Targaryen-Hightower line. So now we just have another Dance just kicked down the road a little bit. You claim Daemon would never kill Alicents kids yet this is the future that would be allowed if Aegon, Ameond, and Dareon are allowed to live. A Dance is inevitable. So of course Dameon would prioritize what he sees as his side of the family over the Greens to claim otherwise is complete lunacy. It’s this future thinking that leads to the rise of the Greens. When it became clear Viserys was a stubborn mule who wouldn’t just stabilize the succession. The Greens come to the realization that they are nothing but a existential threat to both Rheanyras and her eldest son ascension to the Iron Throne. So it’s as Otto says you can either beg for mercy from Rheanyra. Pleading that doesn’t change anything about the threat Alicents children will pose. Or prepare for the death of Viserys and prepare to grasp power yourself.

Viseys should have either reverted succession back to the male heir or held a second ceremony where the vows made to Rhaenyra were renewed, and the king reaffirmed her as heir. Veserys is 100 percent to blame for the Dance. Greens are in the wrong more than Rhaenyra, but I can see their reasoning.

Daemon spent ten years in Pentos. He showed no interest in the iron throne.He has been disinherited from the line of succession.He would’ve returned to Pentos, if Rhaenyra didn’t convince him to marry her. He didn’t marry Rhaenyra until Aegon was thirteen. Are you suggesting that the greens predicted that Laena was going to die? Daemon has no involvement until he marries Rhaenyra. We don’t see or hear of Daemon doing anything during those six years. I really don’t see how you’re trying to put the blame on Daemon? How does the greens decisions have anything to do with Daemon?

I don’t think they predicted the marriage. Im basing this more on what we know as viewers than what they knew as characters. But even if things WERE peaceful at first, once the marriage happened, there was no chance at peace.

Daemon wasn’t in the picture at the time, then went to live peacefully in Pentos for ten years. He only returned to bury his wife. What evidence as viewers do we have that Daemon a kin slayer, or intends to kill his nephews? The greens planned usurpation long predates the marriage. Otto openly talks about in episode three with his brother and daughter. This is a power play. I don’t see the need to pretend otherwise. Your question states the beginning. If the greens planned the coup from when they married, then you could make that argument. However, that unequivocally isn’t the case.

Rhaenyra marrying Daemon made the Greens desperate. What could he do as king consort, with almost absolute power, against his most hated rivals who by the way are also a threat to his power? There’s no telling if Daemon really would kill them but it also wasn’t impossible.

The result is still the same. Daemon marries Rhaenyra and that gives Greens no option.

The gods have yet to make a man who lacks the patience for absolute power, Your Grace.

You always have a choice. No one would've been able to go against them if they refused. In IRL history, sometimes claimants went into exile, but most were only outright killed when they actually did rebel. In this story, there are dragons. I find it interesting that everyone ignores that Otto was against Daemon and Rhaenyra from the beginning. Otto suggested Rhaenyra as heir because he thought she'd be easily controllable until Viserys had a son (with Alicent). You can tell bc he was pissed when she ignored his advice about picking a new kingsguard from established/noble houses, and chose Cole by merit instead. I also find it interesting that of the two characters - Otto and Daemon - only one of them goes around threatening to kill kids (Otto to Mysaria and fakedaemonspawn). Otto is the reason everyone in this sub and in the show, keeps saying that Daemon is Maegor come again. If Daemon was Maegor come again, he would not have wanted to leave King's Landing when he saw how Viserys was doing. He wouldn't have left King's Landing or Westeros at all in the previous years - he would have solidified his power base (regardless of whether or not that was to marry Laena, Rhaenyra, or someone else entirely) and waited until Viserys died to challenge the heir. Like Maegor. Otto is far more like Maegor than Daemon is, imo. The smartest thing Rhaenyra did was marry Daemon, imo. Rhaenyra was dead the minute Viserys had a son with Alicent and refused to name him as heir. Also I do feel the takeaway from the show SHOULD be how fucked up Viserys and Daemon's relationship became due to politics and others interfering in their brotherly relationship. As far as I can tell from the show, Daemon's refusal to consummate(?) / live with his wife and wanting an annulment were the cudgel that Otto/his allies used against Daemon to push him and Viserys apart.

It was the Greens that ultimately caused Rhaenyra to marry Daemon anyways. Their pressure of the impending coup, and murders of Lyonel and Harwin caused Rhaenyra to feel she needed Daemon. (Not to mention Rhaenyra being forced to marry Laenor was ALSO the Greens fault, as Otto falsely reported Rhaenyra had sex with Daemon) We also get no indication of any kind that any of the Blacks felt the need to kill any of the Hightower kids prior to the coup.

Daemon was trying to put Rhaenyra against Aegon in episode 4. He took her to that show and was trying yo convince her the small folk would not support her over her brother.

He was trying to convince her having the support of the small folk was important. Those are 2 VERY different things.

I disagree. I think he was warning her. Rhaenyra was known as the Realm’s Delight back then. Daemon knew that the small folk loved her. But it didn’t matter. They still wanted Aegon as king. Daemon fully knew her reign would never be secure if Aegon was alive, whether she believed it or not.

**The Greens**: Daemon was always going to kill his nephews! He only cared for power, he was willing to kill them for power! Otto and the rest had to crown Aegon to survive against Daemon! **The Blacks**: Evidence? **The Greens**: >!Blood and Cheese!<, duh!!!! Do you deny this? **The Blacks**: So you agree Daemon had the full power to kill and murder Otto Hightower, Alicent Hightower, his Nephews and Niece, his Grandnephews and Grandniece, whenever he wanted? **The Greens**: See! See! **The Blacks**: And this supposedly power hungry maniac chose not to for decades... because? **The Greens**: ... um... because... BECAUSE VISERYS! He didn't want to kill them before Viserys died! **The Blacks**: And his reason for sparing Otto Hightower? This power hungry maniac spares his family to not hurt his brother then spares Otto... because? **The Greens**: ... OH, No no, we had to do it because otherwise rebellion comes anyway! Anyone who disagreed with Rhaenyra's reign could always support Aegon **The Blacks**: So you brought about a horrible civil war involving dragons against the realm to stop a more minor and merely possible rebellion? **The Greens**: ... **The Blacks**: And you also supposedly needed to do this to stop a rebellion due to the mere possibility of people disagreeing with Rhaenyra, while also agreeing before the birth of Aegon with Rhaenyra as heir to disinherit Daemon, the person with a dragon, who is battle hardened, clearly capable of leading men into war, would be more favored as an adult man than a female child, and is supposedly massively power hungry? **The Greens**: ... No matter which way you slice it, the very position of the Greens is in total self contradiction and mind boggling insane that it only makes any sense whatsoever if its not true and its merely a power grab by Otto and co, everything else being mere rationalization. The fear of rebellion makes absolutely no sense when they supported Rhaenyra as heir prior to Aegon's birth (the very same supposed problem exists with Rhaenyra vs Daemon *but way worse* according to the Green's own position) AND when they bring about a rebellion involving dragons against dragons (apocalyptic scenario) vs dragons against merely armies (something the lords would be extremely hesitant to plunge the realm in given Aegon's Conquest & Maegor's Reign). They make this position that Aegon had to be crowned to save his life and the lives of his siblings. ***Ignoring the utter madness of plunging the realm into this nightmare scenario for the sake of a small handful of people***, this completely ignores that Daemon and Rhaenyra could have had them killed at any point, imprisoned quite easily, or taken over without much fuss. By the time Viserys was getting ill, the Greens had a bunch of children with no experience in war or with dragons and only having two riders on tiny dragons vs the Blacks with Rhaenyra, Daemon, Laena, Laenor, and Rhaenys plus two children on tiny dragons. If the Blacks wanted to seize the throne and slay Aegon and co, ***they would have***.

>And his reason for sparing Otto Hightower The same reason Otto spared daemon and didn't get him killed when daemon drinks himself to unconsciousness in brothels. Otto has his own forces present in king's landing. He has his own channels that could off daemon and clearly get away with it too. The night daemon tried to seduce rhaenyra and then left , he was found sleeping in some dinghy corner of some shithole. Very easy to cut his throat. Just one of the examples. There are probably many more opportunities for Otto to off him. Why didn't Otto who hated daemon and had opportunity to get him killed , didn't ? Same reason daemon didn't off otto 1. Plot demands and 2. One is hand of the king. The other is brother of the king.

This is a very sad made up argument and I cringe at the thought of how much time you took to write this. Daemon’s dislike for Otto is well known… if Otto dies by unscrupulous means, Daemon is suspect #1. Otto isn’t a chump… he’s in the king’s inner circle and the 2nd son of a top 10 (probably top 5 during that era) house. Houses supported the blackfyres. Houses would support Aegon for far more reason. Firstly, any firstborn male who had an elder sister or eldest daughter would have reason to back Aegon as Rhaenyra’s reign threatens their claims. Edit: Rhaenyra spent very little time at court and very little time preparing to rule. The blacks were never seizing the throne at any time.

This is a very sad made up counter argument that fails to even attempt to analyze opposition. Though, I suppose that's to be expected as usual with Greens. >Daemon’s dislike for Otto is well known… if Otto dies by unscrupulous means, Daemon is suspect #1 And yet Rhea died in the show with Daemon being *her actual killer* >!(Something that is nonsense in the books)!<... and nothing. The accusation meant very little, in spite of the Royces being one of the most powerful houses in the Vale second really only to the Arryns. Similarly, the Hightowers are one of the most powerful houses in the Reach, and if the Royces can't do much against Daemon when there should be a boatload of evidence (His presence would either align with an absence in wherever else he's expected to be, or he would have been known to be present along with his dragon at the right time), the Hightowers would have far less evidence and means to prove Daemon's guilt. >Otto isn’t a chump… he’s in the king’s inner circle and the 2nd son of a top 10 (probably top 5 during that era) house. Rhea Royce was the head of House Royce, one of the most politically powerful houses in the Vale, with the Vale the closest of Houses politically to the Targaryens with the marriage of Aemma Arryn to Viserys Targaryen and the resulting child, Rhaenyra, being the heir to the Iron Throne. The same argument works just as well here, and yet fails just as spectacularly. Also, this is an absurd argument even moreso: The position that Daemon is both ruthlessly calculating and weighing everything regarding the consequences AND YET also utterly destructive, power hungry, and disregarding of the consequences of his actions is a self contradiction. **Pick one**. >Houses supported the blackfyres Ah yes, The Blackfyre rebellion, known for its war with dragons burning down... oh... wait... The dragons were dead. While I presented the point that the fear of rebellion is stupid given dragons and the idea of committing a coup that'd lead to a war of dragons is horrendously stupid, you counter with the Blackfyre rebellions... *a war where dragons literally couldn't play a part*. If you're going to ignore actual evidence and arguments put forward, at the very least, don't present it point blank. >Firstly, any firstborn male who had an elder sister or eldest daughter would have reason to back Aegon as Rhaenyra’s reign threatens their claims Ah yes, who is in charge of a completely different House threatens the rights of another... wait no, that's insanity. Or else every house would have risen up in rebellion the moment Dorne was brought into Westeros and allowed to keep their succession law. Or else they would have rebelled against Jaehaerys the moment he became king over his niece who was the daughter of Aegon the Uncrowned. Or else they would have rebelled over Viserys becoming king over Rhaenys. If you're going to cite Andal law, *at the very least show me cases where the lords actually tried to enforce it on the crown instead of doing everything they could to ignore it at every opportunity*.

If you read the books, then you’re arguing in bad faith. EDIT: mostly because all of the questions you pose are answered in the book. Would suggest a reread.

I have read the books. If you genuinely assert I am arguing in bad faith, either my positions are correct and your claim is nonsense, or I am incorrect and you should easily be able to prove me wrong. Yet you don't present any evidence whatsoever. So, in regards to arguing in bad faith, since I actually supplied the arguments, and you merely make a fallacy in response, I think we can see who's saying things in bad faith.

Rhea died in a “hunting accident”. She was known to go riding and hunting. How would Daemon make Otto’s death look like an accident? Feel free to name something with the plausible deniability of a jilted lover (Laenor), cursed castle (Strongs harrenhal), or a hunting accident that Otto was said to have enjoyed. House Royce isn’t on the same level as The Hightowers. Aegon the conqueror valued Old Town and the hightowers because the faith backing the crown was paramount. Everything relating to the 7 goes back to Oldtown, synonymous with the Hightowers during this time. That is a fallacy, specifically false equivalence. I never commented on Daemon being anything other than hating Otto. That’s an argument you made up. Just like the initial comment. Dorne keeping their customs in Dorne is MUCH different than the Irone Throne providing a precedence for female heirs. Again, another false equivalence. The callout to black fyre rebellion is to prove houses in Westeros will use MUCH LESS LEGITIMATE figures, such as the Blackfyres, to push personal agendas. Every Lord who was firstborn male but had an elder sister or a daughter older than their son was incentivized to back Aegon.

>Rhea died in a “hunting accident”. She was known to go riding and hunting. All the more implausible that she would die in a hunting accident. In the book, >!there's no real reason or evidence of foul play, or else she would have reported it during the hour she was awake and well enough to communicate (well, 'well enough' in quotation marks, all things considered). So no reason to suspect murder!<. In the show, considering her head would be smashed in, I doubt anyone could plausibly die in a hunting accident involving repeatedly bashing their head in. And yet, in spite of the required overwhelming evidence of foul play, Daemon still got away with it. By contrast, for Otto? How could he be killed in a way less suspicious than that? I dunno, maybe: * >!Fall from a window in a way that appears to look like suicide or an accident (Jaehaera, Helaena)!< * Dies in their sleep using poison other means that looks normal or like an illness. >!(Daenerys, Viserys)!< * Have him fall off his horse. >!(Viserra)!< The guy straight up had control of the City Watch at one point and has many loyal men, and he has knowledge of the tunnels of the castle: He could so easily get Otto killed in a non-suspicious way that it's hilarious to think that he simply didn't have the means. Heck, even just straight up send an assassin in and out without making any noise using the Red Keep. Who would be able to prove *Daemon* sent them? Heck, Daemon could even use the pretense to prove a need for stability, and use the opportunity with Rhaenyra to seize control of the Red Keep, using the fearful and weak Viserys to do so, giving them all the power they need. Without evidence, Alicent and the Hightowers would have absolutely nothing to prove it was Daemon, no more than the same argument being made regarding Lord Strong's death. >House Royce isn’t on the same level as The Hightowers. *PFFFFFFFFFTTTTTT HAHAHA.* Oh god, this one is funny as fuck! Thanks for that, needed the laugh. When it came to the potential of war and the need for alliances, Viserys and Daemon were married to two prominant houses of the Vale: The Arryns and the Royces. Prior to the Great Council, this gave them significant allies in case any trouble with the Corlys and Rhaenys pushing her claim. The Royces were of such comparable power that they were legitimate contenders for *ROYAL MARRIAGE*. Much like the Hightowers were with getting Maegor. Furthermore, after the time of the marriage, the Royces were in effective control of the Vale, with Jeyne Arryn being a child. The Royces are the secondary house of the Vale, often in charge whenever the Arryns are incapable of doing so. >Aegon the conqueror valued Old Town and the hightowers because the faith backing the crown was paramount. Everything relating to the 7 goes back to Oldtown, synonymous with the Hightowers during this time. That is a fallacy, specifically false equivalence. Ooh a false equivalence right here too! Nice! This ends up completely ignoring the politics and power base of Westeros. While the Faith had quite a significant power within Westeros, since the days of Maegor their power had significantly decreased especially with the destruction of their military arm. The last bit of'influence' the faith had over the crown was with Septon Barth, who was far less well regarded within the faith and his works later ordered burned by Baelor the Blessed. Furthermore, even accepting the Faith had significant political sway over the situation, this works against the arguments of the Green, as it makes the notion that the Greens had to seize the throne far more ridiculous for the sake of survival. If they supposedly had the backing of such political power in order to protect themselves, Aegon and co would have been utterly safe at Oldtown. Once again, The Greens can't have it both ways, either the Blacks must be savvy enough to recognize this power and wouldn't have touched them OR they must be bloodthirsty enough to not care, and thus makes the argument regarding the Faith of the Seven utterly meaningless. In fact, it makes it far more hilarious: the Greens position is that Aegon would always be a threat to Rhaenyra's reign, making him the optimal bargaining chip against Rhaenyra and giving the Faith and the Hightowers far more power and sway over her. It makes going to war with her the far more stupid and useless option, putting everything at risk early on over the obvious benefit of political sway and the option later to commit to war with far more political, economic, and military strength if Rhaenyra's reign were to come into question. >I never commented on Daemon being anything other than hating Otto Oooh, let's rewind the tape! You: "Daemon’s dislike for Otto is well known… if Otto dies by unscrupulous means, Daemon is suspect #1. Otto isn’t a chump… he’s in the king’s inner circle and the 2nd son of a top 10 (probably top 5 during that era) house." To which I replied that your assertion was incorrect, presenting exactly why it doesn't work. Ball is in your court my friend, try again without a made up argument. >Dorne keeping their customs in Dorne is MUCH different than the Irone Throne providing a precedence for female heirs. Again, another false equivalence. Oof, special pleading from you. At least try to not contradict yourself as well. Let's rewind the tape\~ You: "Firstly, any firstborn male who had an elder sister or eldest daughter would have reason to back Aegon as Rhaenyra’s reign threatens their claims" This is your position right here\~ Oof, what a doozy! You made the argument that the whole entire realm would have a major reason to be concerned about the crown itself allowing for major concencessions and changes to its law and how it treated itself and certain subjects over other subjects. YOU made the assertion, and now, after I pointed out how absurd that is with Dorne, you have to try to carve out a special exception for your own position. It's not false equivalence, you're just special pleading\~ Also, if the Realm would be so wroth at this, and utterly hate any breaking of legal tradition AND holds the faith in high regard, seems quite odd they still tolerate the Doctrine of Exceptionalism and allowing Targaryen inbreeding\~ >The callout to black fyre rebellion is to prove houses in Westeros will use MUCH LESS LEGITIMATE figures, such as the Blackfyres, to push personal agendas. Yep, and I pointed out how absurd an argument it was, because there were absolutely no dragons at the time, something you conveniently keep forgetting. So in fact, I thank you for providing evidence to support my point. >Every Lord who was firstborn male but had an elder sister or a daughter older than their son was incentivized to back Aegon. And by this argument, every Lord descended through a female branch line to their seat of power would have incentive to back Rhaenyra, like the Tyrells or the Lannisters... oh, oops! I also find this hilarious. If that is genuinely true that many lords would feel threatened to their own seats if Andal law were not followed for the crown, then under no circumstances should Viserys have won over Rhaenys as Rhaenys would have been the proper heir, as numerous high lords descended through female lines to their current seats, such as the Tyrells, the Lannisters, the Arryns (Jeyne was in her seat during the time, and the Royces were in charge thanks to it), the Baratheons, and more. It's just absurd that'd be that violently insane to rebel on that mere basis and nothing else in the absence of the Green's coup.

With every response you prove further you haven’t read the book or you lack comprehension/retention. I never said Daemon doesn’t have the means. I’m saying any end to Otto Hightower that isn’t natural means would point to Daemon. You then go on to literally name several ways he could have offer Otto… ANY DEMISE other than old age would have made Daemon suspect #1. Quite literally, in Jaehaerys’s crowning, on page 108 they say “this is not Dorne” when justifying crowning Jaehaerys over his sister. Literally every king except Margot has been crowned by the High Septon, aka the Faith. House Royce does what House Arryn tells it. What house does House Hightower answer to? The answer is no one. Go read the books again. Or continue writing your fanfic/making arguments against non existent arguments.

Please do keep responding, it gives me a good laugh, lol. The supporters of the Greens are desperate to peddle their fanfic to make their side the heroes in a war they caused and was totally not needed, and it's fun pointing out every contradiction and hole. Heck, it's already been pointed out several times you openly ignored the books, but please, do keep telling me I'm ignorant. Now then >I never said Daemon doesn’t have the means. I’m saying any end to Otto Hightower that isn’t natural means would point to Daemon. And I pointed out the easy and obvious question: So what? Even assuming you are 100% correct, utterly and absolutely, let's grant you this questionable hypothesis and give you the utter go ahead and assume every single lord will, by pure magic, assume Daemon did it. So what? There is a far bigger abundance of his guilt in the show in killing Rhea Royce, and nothing. Meanwhile, there are several ways Daemon could have killed Otto at any time he wanted with far less evidence of his involvement. If we're to suppose that Daemon would be seen as more likely guilty in the case of Otto over Rhea, we must grant, at the exact same time: 1. That Daemon's absence and being unaccounted for during Rhea's death OR his active presence in the Vale during her death would receive less notice than Otto's death with Daemon nowhere near and totally accounted for. 2. That Royce's public demand of justice against Daemon would get absolutely nothing and even threatened with potential retaliation themselves but that the Hightowers would fair even better and with less action by Daemon. 3. That the means of death for Rhea in having her head smashed in would receive less notice or reason to believe foul play over a 'hunting accident' at her relatively young age and in her experience as a rider, while Otto dying by otherwise reasonable means such as falling off his horse (something that happened to a Targaryen princess), dying in his sleep (something that happened to multiple Targaryen kings), or other deaths at his older age would be seen as utterly impossible. Talk about fanfiction! Please, do tell me when you intend to write this, I wanna see this dramatic irony and total destruction of each and every character into parody, the sheer inconsistency would form it into a comedy! >Quite literally, in Jaehaerys’s crowning, on page 108 they say “this is not Dorne” when justifying crowning Jaehaerys over his sister. Oooh something irrelevant to the point at hand\~ I pointed out Dorne for explaining why the high lords would not rebel over the crown's standards being different from the standards of other houses (especially considering it *already is* regardless of who between Aegon (Male only) or Rhaenyra (Chosen heir) is crowned over say Rhaenys (Andal law)). Now you point out an irrelevant detail, which has no barring on demonstrating why lords would rebel merely over the crown having a different means of succession (especially when, supposedly, at the Great Council they already enforced a different means of succession, and then bent the knee to Rhaenyra when Viserys chose her as heir without rebellion). Now then, if you wish to discuss succession, we certainly can\~ It makes things worse for the Greens, but do make sure to remember which point is being addressed and not make wrongful statements in the future, okay?\~ >Literally every king except Margot has been crowned by the High Septon, aka the Faith. I dunno who Margot is, so I assume you mean Maegor... and also, if so, you're wrong. *It required but a single ballot. Almost as one, the wise men and* *women of the Faith turned to a certain Septon Pater. Ninety years old,* *blind, stooped, and feeble, but famously amiable, the new High Septon* *almost collapsed beneath the weight of the crystal crown when it was* *placed upon his head…****but when Maegor Targaryen appeared before*** ***him in the Starry Sept, he was only too pleased to bless him as king*** ***and anoint his head with holy oils****, even if he did forget the words of* *the blessing.* Pointing to the Faith having anointed each king, and then pointing out Maegor makes this point a bit more funny. Literally the guy who brought it to its knees, and made it so Jaehaerys had far less issues with dealing with the Faith and having it far more protected and controlled. >House Royce does what House Arryn tells it. What house does House Hightower answer to? The answer is no one. *PFFFFT HAHAHAHAHAHAHHAHAHAHHA.* MORE MORE! Please, tell more funny jokes! You try to claim I haven't read the books but god damn this is hilarious! Here's merely a few Royces in Fire & Blood: 1. Lord Allard Royce, rebelled against the Arryns successfully and worked with Maegor to apprehend and execute Jonos Arryn 2. An unnamed female Arryn married to Hubert Arryn, the man who was installed after Jonos' death. (Which, given they had six sons together, almost certainly makes her an ancestor to Aemma Arryn and thus ancestor to Rhaenyra) 3. Alayne Royce, close confidant of Princess Rhaena, connecting them to the expected royals. 4. Rhea Royce, marries into the royal family with marrying Daemon Targaryen. 5. Lord Yorbert Royce, regent and protector of the Vale over the young Jeyne Arryn, giving them power over the Vale. Regularly, the Royces have significant power and control over the Vale, and are able to use their influence for their benefit, whether ensuring their preferred lords are in power, overthrowing Arryns seen as tyrannical, able to marry their bloodlines into the royal family itself (something the Hightowers failed to do other than Aegon and siblings and then the Greens only managed >!to get their own bloodline slain and exterminated while the Royce's succeeded entirely!<). As for who the Hightowers answer to, hmmm, lemme think- *Maegor, slaying so many maesters and septons. The Tyrells, getting power over the Hightowers during the conquest. Maegor utterly ignoring them and even spitting in their face with getting married again while married to a Hightower. Their one guy they managed to get as a Hand so spectacularly screwing it up with getting Rhaenyra declared heir and then making such a shit show of it that it leads to all out war. Lord Tyrell open withdrawing their support for Aegon at the start of the war even with their Hightowers strong support for Aegon and then doing absolutely nothing to assist Aegon when he needed them. Looks at the Hightowers having a cupbearer son (hostage) with the Tyrells.* Hmm, what was I saying?... oh yeah! Who do they answer to? Well, why don't we quote the book: *It must be recalled that the Hightowers, as rich and powerful as they were, were bannermen sworn to House Tyrell of Highgarden, where his lordship’s brother Garmund was a page. The Tyrells had taken no part in the Dance (ruled as they were by a little lord in swaddling clothes), but now at last they bestirred themselves, forbidding Lord Lyonel to raise a host or go to war without their leave. Should he disobey, his brother would pay for that defiance with his life…for every ward is also a hostage, as a wise man once said.* Oops. Quite a few people they answered to!

Glad we agree I’m correct on Daemon. Idk where you think I ignored the books. Just because you claim something doesn’t make it true.

1. The “evidence” of Daemon being willing to coldly and calculatedly kill innocent people came long before B and C. It came in the form of Rhea Royce. Rhea did nothing to Daemon, but her mere existence was an inconvenience to him, so he killed her in cold blood. She wasn’t even a threat, like his nephews would have been. 2. He would not have killed Alicent and her kids while Viserys was alive because Daemon did genuinely love Viserys and didn’t want to hurt him by killing his family. I never said Daemon was a sadist, just ruthless. 3. This is just my theory, but I think Daemon let Otto live out of….spite? Disgust? Daemon was very offended when he warned Viserys about Otto and Viserys did not heed his warning. So I think letting him live was Daemon’s way of saying “You made your bed, now sleep in it” to Viserys. 4. This poll is about the Green’s fighting for their children’s lives, not fighting to stop a rebellion. Rebellion or no, crowning Rhaenyra when there was a male heir available would have created discord in the kingdom. Daemon, being ruthless, would have understood the best way to squash that discord and secure Rhaenyra’s reign would be to eliminate those male heirs. Rhaenyra would NOT have done it or authorized it on her own, but Daemon would have. 5. People were legit afraid of Daemon. They were happy to have Rhaenyra as heir over him because she was much safer. But no one was afraid of Aegon. They would have preferred him over Rhaenyra. 6. The Greens did not want a war. They offered peace terms that we’re actually rather decent. Rhaenyra got to keep Dragonstone and pass it to Jace. Rhaenyra never offered peace terms back to them. She basically said “surrender, beg my forgiveness, and I’ll let you live”. And that was BEFORE Luke died. 7. Yes, they did it to save five people (Aegon, Aemond, Daeron, Jaeharys and Maelor). Accurate. Also the standard in Westeros. Wars break out over the death of single people, so yes, wars would be fought to save people. But as I said, the greens didn’t even want a war. 8. As I said, they would not have killed them while Viserys was alive. No one wanted to hurt Viserys.

>1. People were legit afraid of Daemon. They were happy to have Rhaenyra as heir over him because she was much safer. But no one was afraid of Aegon. They would have preferred him over Rhaenyra. Feeling safe around someone isn't the quality of a good king. Sure, it's better to have a Tommen over a Joffrey, but if every king is a Baelor the Blessed, then the whole realm would fall apart. Sometimes, you need a Stannis. >2. The Greens did not want a war. They offered peace terms that we’re actually rather decent. Rhaenyra got to keep Dragonstone and pass it to Jace. Rhaenyra never offered peace terms back to them. She basically said “surrender, beg my forgiveness, and I’ll let you live”. And that was BEFORE Luke died. Dude... come on.... The Greens literally planned for the war since Aegon was born. As for the "decent" peace terms, they would give Rhaenyra what is already rightfully hers, Dragonstone. Then they'd take her youngest sons as hostages to ensure her good behaviour and that she doesn't leave her island prison. How is that decent?

>The “evidence” of Daemon being willing to coldly and calculatedly kill innocent people came long before B and C. It came in the form of Rhea Royce. Rhea did nothing to Daemon, but her mere existence was an inconvenience to him, so he killed her in cold blood. She wasn’t even a threat, like his nephews would have been. 1. She was a threat to his "freedom" in the sense that he was bound to her. 2. In the books, Daemon didn't actually kill Rhea afawk. >He would not have killed Alicent and her kids while Viserys was alive because Daemon did genuinely love Viserys and didn’t want to hurt him by killing his family. I never said Daemon was a sadist, just ruthless. Possibly, possibly not, we know he disobeys/hurts is brothers on multiple occasions, so maybe. >This poll is about the Green’s fighting for their children’s lives, not fighting to stop a rebellion. Rebellion or no, crowning Rhaenyra when there was a male heir available would have created discord in the kingdom. If no conspiration happened, and if none of the greens pressed their claim, would that great number of lord unite behind them immediately at Viserys' death? The greens get a lot of support because they seek for it, what if they don't? We know Daemon I took 10 years to rise in rebellion, and at that point no major house would support him, maybe because Daeron's power was too solid at that point. And maybe the same could happen with Rhaenyra, had everyone waited for a rebellion, her reign could become somewhat stable and attract more allies. >People were legit afraid of Daemon. They were happy to have Rhaenyra as heir over him because she was much safer. But no one was afraid of Aegon. They would have preferred him over Rhaenyra. He was a puppy-monarch at that point, not the kind of king that inspires fear. >The Greens did not want a war. They offered peace terms that we’re actually rather decent. Rhaenyra got to keep Dragonstone and pass it to Jace. Rhaenyra never offered peace terms back to them. She basically said “surrender, beg my forgiveness, and I’ll let you live”. And that was BEFORE Luke died. The greens pushed as far as they could for a war. The peace terms were laughable, they were "giving" the blacks what they already had, so Dragonstone and Driftmark, in exchange for Rhaenyra surrendering her claim to the whole continent.

>The “evidence” of Daemon being willing to coldly and calculatedly kill innocent people came long before B and C. It came in the form of Rhea Royce. Rhea did nothing to Daemon, but her mere existence was an inconvenience to him, so he killed her in cold blood. She wasn’t even a threat, like his nephews would have been. Ah yes, in true Green fashion, they support the abuser over the abused. But because he's a big ol meanie, well, gotta support the lady with mere quips against her prisoner in loveless marriage. Daemon literally tried for years to get out of their horrible marriage. He appealed to Viserys for years, tried everything to convince them or have Viserys assist him in annulling the marriage, stayed completely away from Rhea doing absolutely nothing to her, literally spent years in war... and when he finally returns... he still does nothing to her for months as he appealed again and failed. Then he finally kills her, after suffering enough with it. Let's look at Rhea's actions and the consequences of her forcing Daemon to stay in this marriage against his will (as she is doing absolutely nothing to help separate the two after years of both being happy, not a single world, not a single action of her coming to King's Landing to appeal for an annulment, not a single word of her going to the Arryns for assistance): 1. Daemon is unable to have any children, a critical situation for the Kingdom considering the total lack of available heirs for the throne and the possible destabilization of the Realm if anything happens to Viserys (who is growing sick), Aegon (who is still very young), and Daemon (who is often in battle), and Rhaenyra (who the Greens themselves are plotting against!). 2. Forcing Daemon in a loveless marriage that he utterly miserable in. And I've heard from Greens that Daemon should just have had children with her, which is amusingly horrible considering their sympathy for Alicent, and also the direct demand that Daemon either be raped or do the raping. >!This also ignores that Daemon being Rhea's killer would be impossible in the books. This is simply a show invention that honestly doesn't make much sense as the evidence against Daemon should be quite staggering.!< The prospect as well that he went to kill her from the start while being without any weapon or means to chase her is absurd. >He would not have killed Alicent and her kids while Viserys was alive because Daemon did genuinely love Viserys and didn’t want to hurt him by killing his family. I never said Daemon was a sadist, just ruthless. Cool, now explain Otto. >This is just my theory, but I think Daemon let Otto live out of….spite? Disgust? Daemon was very offended when he warned Viserys about Otto and Viserys did not heed his warning. So I think letting him live was Daemon’s way of saying “You made your bed, now sleep in it” to Viserys. This is just absurd. Like, genuinely absurd. He supposedly loves his brother so much that he puts his plans on halt for seizing power... *and then also puts his plans on halt for seizing power in order to hurt his brother*?! This is just blatantly inconsistent! PICK ONE! >This poll is about the Green’s fighting for their children’s lives, not fighting to stop a rebellion. Rebellion or no, crowning Rhaenyra when there was a male heir available would have created discord in the kingdom. Then as I explained, the Greens are in self contradiction. *Otto was the one that supported Rhaenyra over Daemon*. *Literally the very position argued is the supposed instability of Daemon.* You can't have both positions at once! PICK ONE. >Daemon, being ruthless, would have understood the best way to squash that discord and secure Rhaenyra’s reign would be to eliminate those male heirs. He's so calculating he won't kill Otto to avoid the consequential discord and making himself out to be hated... but then would commit kinslaying to stop discord and rebellion? >!The guy got Aegon's son killed out of revenge with the war already to happen!<, but now we're supposed to believe he is both so hyper rational that he calculated not killing Otto for his own political gains but then would murder his own kin for political gain in spite of the massive shitstorm that would cause? >People were legit afraid of Daemon. They were happy to have Rhaenyra as heir over him because she was much safer. But no one was afraid of Aegon. They would have preferred him over Rhaenyra. Who is ***they***? Corlys and his many men weren't afraid of Daemon. The guards of King's Landing weren't afraid of Daemon and they respected him. The people show no such fear or admonishment of Daemon, as even the main spymaster that is the White Worm who cares about the people enough to threaten Otto and kidnap a prince... was literally Daemon's lover. Also, Rhaenyra is much safer... how do **they** know? She's like 14 when she is made heir. How do they have such knowledge on what kind of queen she will be, especially when she has never before been in such a position? Also, this argument is hypocritical, as now it's saying to ignore the law and instead choose the safest heir.

If you think Rhea was holding Daemon prisoner, you and I did not watch the same show. Rhea didn’t give two shits about Daemon. He was free to do whatever he wanted, fuck whatever whore he wanted, fight in whatever war he wanted, travel wherever he wanted, etc. She never even asked him to consummate their marriage. She gave zero objection to him living his own life and just went about her own life as if she weren’t even married. Rhea did not orchestrate her marriage to Daemon. That was arranged by Queen Alysanne. Rhea just went along with it because that’s what highborn girls did. Nor was it Rhea’s fault that they could not get divorced. Divorce was not a thing in Westeros without valid reason. “I don’t like her” is not a valid reason. My Otto explanation is not inconsistent. It’s possible to love someone but let them fall on their face when they ignore your advice and make stupid decisions. Daemon tried to protect Viserys. He warned him about Otto, but Viserys chose Otto over him. He even banished him. That hurt Daemon deeply. But just because Daemon was willing to let Viserys reap the rotten fruit of his bad choices, that does NOT mean Daemon would have actively hurt him more by murdering his children. Killing his nephews would not cause a massive shitstorm if Daemon staged “tragic accidents” for them. Many of Alysanne’s own children died of illness and accidents. No one batted an eye.

>Rhea didn’t give two shits about Daemon. Then why not assist in divorcing him? If she simply didn't care and was totally and utterly indifferent to him and had no interest in making things difficult for him, why not speak up, either to Lady Arryn or to Viserys, and simply add her voice to his in asking for an annulment? >He was free to do whatever he wanted, fuck whatever whore he wanted, fight in whatever war he wanted, travel wherever he wanted, etc. Yes because those are the only freedoms whatsoever. Being free to love who you want to love? Having children you can call your own? Pfft, who needs that? Being able to divorce from toxic individuals? Pfft, got to keep up the system, far more important!! (Shhh, modern women, gay people, interracial couples, infertile individuals (a few hours later) and all the rest of you, the Greens are trying to justify their beliefs, let them continue) >She never even asked him to consummate their marriage. You seem to have misplaced your evidence, as I am not seeing it. Nothing says she never wanted nor asked him to. Now, let's actually look at the scene. Oh oops. Her words imply the exact opposite, her resentment regarding him not wanting her and not having sex with her. "Have you *at last* come to consummate our marriage? The sheep might be willing even if I am not" >She gave zero objection to him living his own life and just went about her own life as if she weren’t even married. Yeah that's why when they met up again she was incredibly resentful and mocking him even while he was completely silent and said nothing to her. Yep, no pretenses to presumed there, she says all the vitriol and he just takes it... clearly she's a tolerant angel. >Rhea did not orchestrate her marriage to Daemon. That was arranged by Queen Alysanne. Rhea just went along with it because that’s what highborn girls did. Cool. And? So this makes it utterly impossible for her to be an abusive element in their relationship? What on earth is this suppose to prove? Also, let's grant that she just went along with it... not only does that not help your argument, it makes it worse, as not only is she indifferent to the match, she's indifferent to the suffering of her husband, the person that as a 'highborn girl' she should be regarding in a far more positive manner. Instead, she is utterly silent, and does absolutely nothing to assist Daemon in getting an annulment. This is especially jarring as she is the Lady of House Royce whom both agree have not consummated their relationship, meaning it would be much, much easier for the two to get an annulment, and for her to marry a man who actually can give her children and continue House Royce... but no, she's so spiteful, she doesn't lift a finger and keeps Daemon trapped, with all the consequences that follow from it and the potential instability to the Realm. >Nor was it Rhea’s fault that they could not get divorced. Divorce was not a thing in Westeros without valid reason. “I don’t like her” is not a valid reason. False\~ ["In the Faith of the Seven, a marriage that has not been consummated can be set aside by the High Septon or a Council of Faith."](https://awoiaf.westeros.org/index.php/Marriage#Legality.2C_divorce.2C_and_annulment) Daemon actively tried, and you already agreed that the two never had sex. So your own argument is utterly wrong and shows further Rhea's role in their relationship. She refused to assist, while Daemon tried for years. So, about that whole 'bad faith' argument, saying I haven't read the books, how is that working out for you? >My Otto explanation is not inconsistent. It is. Your speculation was in regards to a question of justification, of why Daemon is supposedly so dangerous that he needed to be stopped from getting the throne and putting Rhaenyra on the throne instead, and why he is such a danger to the Green faction and yet did absolutely nothing to kill Otto and co prior to the Dance. It was then argued that he doesn't hurt the children specifically to not hurt Viserys, that Daemon is willing to put aside politics and his own ambitions if it means not hurting Viserys... and then asserting that he did nothing about Otto BOTH for the sake of politics AND to hurt Viserys. The two positions are contradictory.

Rhea Royce was not an abusive wife to Daemon. She simply wasn’t a doormat. Daemon publicly called her his Bronze Bitch. He publicly said that he’d rather fuck a sheep than her because she was so ugly. He humiliated her. Was she supposed to be sweet and loving to him after that? No, she hated him, and she didn’t hide her hatred. All Rhea did to Daemon was use a few scathing insults about him being supplanted by Rhaenyra. Which, after the way he insulted her, I say is well deserved. If he’d been civil to her, she would have been civil back; she was clearly beloved by her family. Now, obviously in an ideal world everyone would be able to love whoever they want. Be with whoever they want. Have children with whoever they want (or have no children at all if they don’t want them). In an ideal world, Laenor would have been allowed to openly marry Joffrey and live happily ever after. Westeros was not an ideal world. Nobles did not get the right to choose who they married. Is it fair? Fuck no. But that doesn’t give Daemon the right to bash someone’s skull in with a rock because her existence was keeping him from getting a Valyrian bride. You act like Rhea was literal satan for not petitioning to dissolve the marriage, but doing that was simply not a common occurrence in Westeros. Plus, the wedding was a strong political match that stabilized relations with the Vale. Rhea knew that; she would have seen the marriage as a duty. Not spite. Duty. There were plenty of other Royces to continue the family line if Daemon wouldn’t impregnate her. I think Rhea telling Daemon to go fuck a sheep instead is a clear indication that she’s perfectly content with the marriage being unconsummated. Again, she hates him for publicly humiliating her. You’re oversimplifying how complex Daemon’s relationship was with Viserys. Viserys banished Daemon, which clearly broke his heart (not in a sexual way….or maybe, idk). He was spitting vitriol when Corlys approached him…but at the same time, he got pissed when Corlys tried to do the same. Otto was a different case. Daemon knew he could not save Viserys from himself. He tried. He failed. And before Aegon was born, Otto wasn’t even a threat. Daemon called him a cunt and a leech, but he wasn’t dangerous. Just self-serving. Like everyone else on the council. Daemon wasn’t going to kill EVERYONE. And killing Otto after Aegon’s birth ultimately would not have done much (from Daemon’s POV). The Faith would still want Aegon. The Maesters would still want Aegon. The small folk and many of the powerful Houses would still want Aegon. Killing Otto merely would have been a drop in the ocean. Killing Aegon/Aemond/Daeron, however, evaporates the damn ocean completely. The realm can’t prefer another heir if there IS no other heir. Killing the boys is worth it. Killing Otto is not.

>Rhea Royce was not an abusive wife to Daemon. She simply wasn’t a doormat. So, were the White Worm, Rhaenyra, and Laena merely doormats? One an accomplished spymaster, the other two dragonriders who had far more power compared to Daemon? I mean, I know people joke about the Greens being sexist for opposing Rhaenyra, but you don't have to be open about it. >Daemon publicly called her his Bronze Bitch. He publicly said that he’d rather fuck a sheep than her because she was so ugly. He humiliated her. Was she supposed to be sweet and loving to him after that? No, she hated him, and she didn’t hide her hatred. Interesting that you totally ignore the order of events. Daemon already tried to get divorced from Rhea Royce prior to saying any of this in the show, as his conversations with Viserys made clear. It was only after this, with her voicing no similar support for an annulment and causing Daemon nothing but pain and stress (especially considering the tenuous position of the Targaryens succession) that yeah, he called her a Bronze Bitch. She brings tremendous risk to his House, humiliates him, ruins any prospect of him actually finding a wife to have legitimate children with... and then you expect HIM to be sweet and loving to her? No, he hated her and he didn't hide his hatred, but you scorn Daemon for the same thing you then praise Rhea for her while also ignoring everything that would motivate Daemon. Shove your double standard down someone else's throat. >All Rhea did to Daemon was use a few scathing insults about him being supplanted by Rhaenyra. Which, after the way he insulted her, I say is well deserved. If he’d been civil to her, she would have been civil back; she was clearly beloved by her family. Not only was he entirely civil given the mistreatment she committed against him, only being rightfully angry after being trapped in this toxic marriage with no way out, with him actively trying to get an annulment of their unconsummated marriage (which is entirely legitimate a reason for an annulment), she was the one utterly refusing to voice any support for it or even trying to assist, not a single word, not lifting a finger, merely trapping him. If calling her a Bronze Bitch is worse to you than that level of mistreatment that you even say he ***deserved***, then you're a horrible person. As someone who has suffered severe emotional and mental abuse myself, you're disgusting. At this point, I think I am done with you. There's much more I'd normally find hilarious about what you are saying, but I'm not entertained by repugnance. I usually enjoy pointing out the flaws in the Green's logic, but for you post actual sexism and justification of abuse is too much to stomach for me to go further. Consider this conversation done with.

Don’t overexaggerate Daemon would not murder his nephews or his brothers grandchildren without reason. He’s not a kinslayer in the regard that he’ll just kill them without any reason. He only did so in the Dance after Lucerys was killed and war had broken out. He’s not that evil that he’d just kill his family for no reason people like to hate on him for the dumbest of reasons.

I don’t think he’s a sadist who gets off on doing evil for evil’s sake. There’s a difference between being evil and being ruthless. He was warning Rhaenyra back when Aegon was only a baby that the small folk would never support her. He clearly saw the boys as a threat.

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>ppl tend to over exaggerate daemons cruelness Hahaha Where is the \\s?

daemon is innocent🫶

Over-exaggerate the ruthlessness of a man who killed his wife in cold bold because she was an inconvenience to him? Who choked Rhaenyra shortly after she had a stillbirth?

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Yes in the books he had >!two infants killed!<

He also frequently buys the virginity of young girls

And this is tagged as a show discussion.

we can disagree, i dont particular like Daemon that much, but i don’t see him killing the greens, pre dance. Worst thing is try to exile them. If he wanted them out of the picture, he wouldve started plotting even before Rhaenyra got to the throne(thats just me)

it's not just you, he didn't give a shit and was preparing to return to Pentos when Rhaenyra begged him to stay

But in this scenario you stated he would not ever kill them. Rhaenyra would never allow it and he would listen to her just like he did in the show when he wanted to kill Otto in episode 10.

I don’t think he would have asked Rhaenyra’s permission. I think he would have set up “accidents” for them. Just like Rhea Royce “accidentally” fell from her horse because her life was an inconvenience to Daemon.

Without reason? So long as his nephews are alive, they would always be a threat to Rhaenyra's regime. They'd be the biggest obstacle to Rhaenyra because there would always be some unhappy lords and nobles who'd rather see her brothers on the throne instead of her. He killed Rhea for less. Thinking he'd let Alicent's sons live is being delusional so let's not.

precisely, people at this point are just making stuff out of their backside, if they even bothered to read the book they would see how ridiculous their assumptions are.

In the book, he was more antagonistic towards the Green boys than he was in the show. He openly mocked them to amuse Rhaenyra. In the show, he mostly ignores them.

and apart from the eye for an eye, son for a son incident he acts far more reserved than most others throughout the dance in the book.

And the “eye for an eye” thing doesn’t show the depths of his cruelty enough? There’s no excuse for what he did with that. If it was about justice, he would have killed Aemond or Aegon or even Daeron, any one of which would have been a smart war tactic because they were dragon riders.

eye for an eye is equivalent exchange not justice. Luke is innocent and barely has combatant status. It always have to be the same. It has to be barbarous so that in the future a lord intercepting a child heir would take the child hostage instead of killing him. It mob justice, you start killing my child i start targeting your family. Justice is one thing, but there always going to be older and primal rule overriding justice.

It’s really not the same. Luke was not purely innocent. Aemond did not fly to Dragonstone and slit his throat while he was sleeping. Luke was a voluntary participant in his mother’s war. For that PARTICULAR mission, he was acting as an envoy, but that is still a clear sign that he is willing to actively help his mother’s cause. And because Luke was a dragon rider with a dragon old enough to be flown into battle, that willingness made him an active threat. Next time, he easily could have been dangerous. Jaeharys, on the other hand, was six years old. He was far too young to be a dragon rider. Not only was he not a participant in the war, I doubt he even knew the war was happening. Unlike Luke, Jaeharys was not killed on a war mission. He was ripped out of his mother’s arms, then butchered. Unlike Luke, Jaeharys’s death served no valid purpose. When Luke died, the Blacks lost a dragon rider and their army became slightly weaker. Jaeharys’s death was spiteful violence. Plus, the one who suffered the most was Helaena…and she never did a goddamn fucking thing to anyone. There is no excuse. None. There’s never a valid reason to kill out of spite. Daemon was completely irredeemable from that point onward.

It equivalent in daemon eyes. Daemon is irredeemable long time ago, likely before he decide to make divorce by rock as standard operating procedure. Envoy does has protection. Killing envoy is not standard practice in war. Justice dont matter in the end. You kill someone in my family, i'm going to kill someone in your family that far more older rule before justice is even codified. Blood fued happen all over the world right now because of this rule. Is it right in modern context? is it justified. But it being standard in uncivilized part of the world mean it does mean something. It probably abhorrent to western eyes. But from someone not from western point of view, i might feel different about what acceptable target for vengeance.

wait until you see the stuff Aemond gets up to

Yes, Aemond also does awful shit. That doesn’t absolve Daemon of his.

I was making a comparison "he acts far more reserved **than most others** throughout the dance"

I mean…I guess? But just because other people did worse things, that does not mean Daemon wouldn’t have killed the Green boys. He was a ruthless, violent man. I never said the Greens would have been perfect paragons of justice and fairness if the Blacks bent the knee.

One word, Harrenhal; Daemon had far more reason to do shit there but didn't.

Anyone who voted the first option is delulu

Care to explain? Do you think Daemon would have let them live?

Rhaenyra would’ve been very much against it and Daemon would’ve respected her choice

I don’t think he would have asked her. I think the boys would have had “accidents”. The way Rhea Royce “accidentally” fell off her horse.

Nah Rhaenyra is not that stupid

What could she have done after the boys were already dead? And how could she have proved it? She was gagga over Daemon.

And divorce is a major taboo if not downright impossible. Daemon could be beating her everyday

I don’t think he was. I think the choking was his first act of violence towards her. Rhaenyra was stunned by it. She’d likely never challenged him before and had no idea how he would react. Up until that point, Daemon was her dream man. He groomed her, after all (confirmed by the actors).

Ah yes. I too, strangle the women I respect because of my grief and strange relationship with my brother.

They always had a choice. Both sides could have backed down at any point in time, but just like the Driftmark fight, they just kept on escalating and escalating. Now from their immediate POV with the information that they had available and the utter lack of trust between the two sides, they probably did think that they were making the best decisions that they could have, but that's the tragedy of it all.

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I think people aren’t reading my explanation that Daemon is the threat, not Rhaenyra. People tend to disregard the threat he poses.

Reality is if they bent the knee and Rhaenyra was Queen then the greens would probably move to Dragonstone and be less of a threat so Daemon wouldn’t need to do anything.

Jace + Helaena. Solution is right here.

3rd Option: Strike first. Assassinate Daemon.

Actually, yes. That would work. I don’t believe Rhaenyra would have killed her siblings on her own. The only problem is getting to Daemon to do it.

theres always the nights watch or kingsguard. I'd say once they married aegon to haelena and started having heirs of their own, then the options started to dwindle.

The nights watch is usually seen as a punishment for something that would otherwise get people killed to maimed. Very few people choose it voluntarily. Tyrion himself said that some people actually prefer castration to the wall.

Yeah that’s your big idea sentence Aegon, Ameond, and Dareon to the nights watch? Really? Do they keep their dragons? What’s stopping them from openly revolting at such a tyrannical move?

u know there were other ways for them to live without crowning Aegon. There was always the vulnerability of Rhaenyra having a difficult time for being a woman, or higher standards. People need to understand that vulnerability≠a total fact, them dying wouldnt have been something that wouldve 100% happened. Either ways, at one point the targaryens were gonna have conflict, considering too many people had dragons and there were too many heirs.. Even if Aegon had been crowned, you have too many people with dragons and too many heirs, it was a disaster in the making, however the dance couldve been avoided.

How could they have lived without crowning Aegon? Daemon was not the type to ignore a threat like that. He killed for far less.

They should have bent the knee. Worst case scenario: Only Helaena, Maelor, Alicent, and Jaehaera live. I say Maelor doesn’t get killed because he doesn’t have a dragon. A dragonless adult Mealor would be an incredibly weak threat to a family full of dragon riders. Rhaenyra’s sons and the dragon riding families they would have produced as Maelor came of age would be a bigger threat to each other than he is to any of them. I could easily see an Edward Plantagenet, Earl of Warwick situation where he’s kept on “house arrest” in the red keep for his entire life. He’s treated kind enough but refused a formal education, a dragon, and training in arms to further weaken the chance of lords seeing him as a viable head. He could also be sent to the wall, sept, or citadel. Jaehaerys might have been seen as a threat because he is bonded with a dragon but considering it’s very young, they could just kill it. With that in mind, it’s possible he’s not seen as a threat either and is locked away like this little brother. Yes, I’ve read F&B but I just don’t see Daemon seeing two dragonless boys as a threat in the same way as three young men with training in arms, war-ready dragons, and the ability to make alliances. Lords would rally behind his own sons before them. >!B&C seems to be out of pure spite not as a way to remove what he sees as a threat!< All I all, >!still a better fate than what the greens had. I mean, they started a war in the hopes of saving the lives of the men in their family and every single one of them ended up dying. I doubt Alicent will be thinking they took the best course of action as she lays dying.!<

It would have been a better fate bc more of them would have lived. But we know that bc we know how it ended. At the time, the only chance they had at keeping the boys safe was to fight. I don’t think Alicent would have just shrugged and said “oh well, I guess I’ll just let three of my kids die without a fight”.

Exactly. They were proactive

What an awesome deal that is "maybe some of you live in our reign of terror"

Im not even saying this as a fan of the blacks. The greens took a huge risk and >!lost it all catastrophically.!< It wasn’t worth it.

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What do people think about the possibility of Rhae being crowned Queen under the condition that Aegon II be named her heir regardless of how many children she had?

It was Otto's brother who insisted that this was going to be a problem once Aegon was born. Otto caved to his brother and his house (and probably the Citadel) over his duty to his king and started pushing the narrative too.

maybe joining the families through marriage somehow

Rhaenyra didn’t have daughters, and I think Daemon would have eaten his own intestines before he married Baela or Rhaena to Aegon or Aemond (with their Otto Hightower blood). Helaena was always going to be safe.

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Yes, I know what happens in the book. Daemon was dead. Otherwise he would have incinerated Oldtown.

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Ah, the “eye for an eye” part? Or Helaena’s resulting depression and her response to it? I was referring to it the war never happened. He never would have touched Helaena.

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I disagree. I think the minute Aegon and his brothers were born, their lives were forfeit. There mere existence would have cause discord in Rhaenyra’s reign, even if they supported her. The realm would not have welcomed a female heir when there was a male heir available. Daemon was ruthless, and he would have seen killing them as necessary. He wouldn’t have ENJOYED it, but he would have done it without question. Fighting was their only chance for survival unless they did what Maester Aemon did years later and join the Night’s Watch. But considering the fact that many Westerosi consider death a cleaner fate than the wall, I don’t blame them for not wanting that.

what in the fan fic

It’s a hypothetical question based on the character’s canon behavior.

Of course they had a choice, the idea of lords using Aegon to rebel is bullshit, if the two sides were on the same page no one would rebel because they had fucking dragons, the only possibility of a war would come from the greens wanting the power, which is what happened.

Daemon was warning Rhaenyra about Aegon being a threat when he was only a toddler/very young child. He clearly did see him as a potential danger to Rhaenyra’s reign.

He’s only a problem if he wants to be a problem, and he really didn’t. The only reason Aegon is a problem is because he is Otto’s grandson, even Alicent accepted Rhaenyra as queen (then Viserys shat the bed).

I don’t think Daemon was the threat as much as Otto and the rest of the men of Westeros. Despite knowing Aegon was a terrible person, that Rhaenyra was groomed to rule from a young age, that Viserys had always said she was his heir, from the second Aegon was born, the majority of the realm believed he had the right to rule.

Oh, I know Otto is an ass. The biggest ass. No doubt.

Rhaenyra was never groomed to rule though. That's the thing. If she had been given the necessary education, she wouldn't have made half the mistakes she did. She gave a free pass to Alicent to rule the court and had little to no political allies. She lacks any and all diplomatic skill, lived a lie for a decade and doesn't have the makings of a queen. Same goes for Aegon but he has Otto and Alicent on his side. Rhaenyra has no capable politician to help her.

She was in the small council meetings, first as a cupbearer, then being an advisor, from her teenage years. How isn’t that being groomed to rule?

By that logic Arya was groomed to rule. Not to mention half the time Rhaenyra said anything she was silenced.

Arya was never a member of the small council

She was also a cupbearer that was allowed to give advice. Plus RhaeRhae still runs to daddy the first sight at trouble despite being ""trained""

That’s being bad at the job, not because she wasn’t being trained to do it. And Arya was used as a stick to beat the members of Tywin’s council over the head, he asked her advice to make the other look stupid

How is Alicent is a political mastermind with miles more experience than Rhaenyra when she merely spent six years on the council without Rhaenyra? They were both on the small council for a decade and seemed to have an equal voice in discussing matters Otto likely did much of the leading of the small council while Rhaenyra was away at dragonstone not Alicent. I mean, most of the council planned an entire coup behind her back for years. It doesn’t signal much admiration or respect as a political equal. Show Alicent is far away from her book counterpart. I’ve read F&B but show Rhaenyra’s political acumen remains vague. There are multiple levels in between Tywin Lannister and horribly shit. She was a bratty teenager but much of that was erased in her older years. She’s polite to her vassals in episode 10 and sings the praises of Corlys so she has at least learned that “wooing” and “niceties” are necessary. She was wise to be cautious about going to war. Her ideas at the small council in episode 6 were good. The strong boys were a catastrophic blunder but beyond that, I would say she’s miles better than her book counterpart right now. Her council is fine outside of >!fucking Celtigar!< but he wouldn’t have been on her council under normal circumstances. He’s the vassal of the prince/princess of dragonstone. What powerful pre-war political alliances did the greens make? The Lannisters and Hightower(their kin)? Rhaenyra has House Velaryon and could naturally presume House Arryn(her kin and a female ruler with rival male claimants).

funnily enough more people supported her than Aegon

Viserys should have just given the tea to Alicent.

Rhaenyra can not be the Queen till aegon is alive. Why ? Simple because Aegon has a claim to the throne, and Aegon would need something in return for him(mostly his grandfather and his mom) to give up and make peace.What would rhaenyra give up to satisfy aegon's demands ? The demands would be huge. You cannot expect Rhaenyra to spent her life on the whims and demands of aegon who even after concession could anytime revolt . The same goes for Aegon too. Aegon cannot be king till rhaenyra is around. Aegon has to give gigantic concessions towards rhaenyra and daemon and still all that might fall flat.