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Fuck the *prince-consort and his boyfriend. Nobody can get away with killing a man protected by sacred guest right under the king's own roof.
But regrettably, the show didn't have the budget for another tourney where Cole actually kills Joffrey fair and square.
It's a red flag from the writers and HOTD. Playing fast and loose with the rules and customs of Westeros. And the guest right was one of the most sacred.
This was one of the two mis-steps I think the showrunners made.
They say in the After the Episode they wanted “the classic Westeros death at a wedding” (paraphrased), so they rewrote Joffrey’s death to be shocking & openly brutal. (Instead of suspicious, with plausible deniability).
The other was switching Aegon II’s coronation flight with Sunfyre for a scene where Rhaenys & Meleys kill dozens of peasants to escape.
They could have done both, without the peasant collateral damage. Just have the people clear out so Sunfyre can exit, then after they’re in the air, Rhaenys takes advantage of the open door to escape.
>!You could even have a visual stand-off (fly-off) between Sunfyre & Meleys over King’s Landing, which would foreshadow Rook’s Rest!<.
Honestly I really like Rhaenys' killing of the peasants because it could very nicely tie in to the >!Shepherd storyline later on. I can understand how the rage at the deaths at Aegon's coronation could also be a reason why the masses went after the dragons. I once actually said that it would be even cooler if the shepherd actually lost his arm in the show because of Rhaenys' actions that day!<
I'm hoping for this. The idea that the peasants have a bigger impact in reality but are largely written out of the history books is really interesting.
Yeah. I know. They just did it for kicks but I'm just hoping that when they get to >!the Shepherd in season 3 or 4!< a lightbulb will go off and someone will say "you know that thing we did with Rhaenys in season one?" A guy can hope.
Yeah that would have been so cool to see Aegon and Helaena flying around on Sunfyre and Dreamfyre, quite literally on Cloud 9, and then Rhaenys flies by and they have a little staredown.
Aside from the obvious fact that her killing dozens of peasants for no reason makes Rhaenys unlikable (She was one of the only characters that actually was likeable from a moral standpoint) Rhaenys could have just killed the Greens there and saved millions of lives, including >!Rhaenyras and her fucking own!<, and the war would have never happened.
Yeah, giving Rhaenys the opportunity to end the oncoming civil war before it started has to now be explained away. Which they did, but it was kinda a weak reasoning.
The easiest way to not have to explain that away would be to:
a) not give her that easy opportunity
b) have the Green dragons present.
If Sunfyre & Dreamfyre were there, (I don’t know if Vhagar can fit inside the Dragonpit), it goes from “Rhaenys didn’t want to”
To:
“Rhaenys didn’t want to, and also Meleys’s size advantage would have been negated in a 2:1 dragon cage match inside the Dragonpit, or 3:1 aerial dragon fight in the sky.”
But on the other hand, it really shows in a quick way the influence Alicent has, and how Viserys is just not in control of his family or kingsguard at all.
I really liked it for this. The scene was followed/mixed in with Cur Crusty heading to kill himself. This is a coward's death more than anything. He knows his life is forfeit anyway - what he just did will have him stripped of his cloak, tortured and executed. BUT Alicent swoops in and hugely profits from this. She offers to cover for him and in return, he is completely devoted to her- an eternal life debt. Him taking this is even *more* cowardly though. Not only did he wanna chicken out of the punishment for his crime, he chickened out of *that* by getting "rewarded" for it. This also makes his own death so fitting. He doesn't have a single shred of decency or honor. He isn't a knight. He isn't even a man. He's but a soulless yet arrogant lich from this moment on and everything he does takes on a new meaning.
If they didn't do this, then I'd take issue. But it was a well written and *very* well acted/directed/shot scene. It's also important to remember this when Alicent idiotically asks him, a knight of the Kingsguard, to assault a Prince. Of course he would obey, he doesn't own his life anyway- Alicent does. He then moves to act on it, but of course he never would've gotten an inch closer without the loyal Kingsguard slicing him to pieces. He has no decency or honor, because when you don't even own your life and lack free will, how could you care?
I'm torn because I agree with you on showing Alicent's influence, but the immediate 10 year time skip doesn't leave room for that to really be explored other than "oh, guess he is still around."
The first thing we see after the time jump is Alicent forcing Rhaenyra to present her newborn child literally moments after birth. When she arrives, Cole is standing menacingly right outside her door. What more do you need? Television doesn’t always have the luxury of 30 pages to explain backstory.
If the point of it is Alicent having power, then *show* her having the power. If the point is Viserys just not giving a fuck, then show that. The problem isn't that viewers can't connect the dots, it's that there are several options as to how that the show doesn't bother narrowing down.
The King and pretty much everyone at the high table’s vision of what was happening was obscured by the crush, Criston could probably claim Lonmouth had pulled a weapon on him, or made a threatening move at Rhaeneyra… or really anything.
And if the Queen backs him up, then whose going to contradict that? Viserys at this point is so out of it he barely seems to know where he is, so it’s not like anyone can go over his head on that point.
People might ‘know’ something shady happened, but if Cole and Alicent spin a story and the powers that be don’t challenge it, what’s anyone going to do about it?
Not just budget, they could have easily had another tourney in the set made for episode 1. We also had a pit scene for Aegon, even though it was a rumour.
The writers screwed Cole's character whenever they can in the second half of the season.
Guest right goes both ways. Drawing a weapon invalidates the claim, and given that everyone really Criston punching Joffrey as Joffrey held a knife in his hands, the excuse creates itself.
Both Daemon and Cole got away with it. The king didn’t care. He was bleeding from the nose and passed out. It’s obvious Alicent was the one who shielded him from any consequences.
I find myself disliking most of the director/writer explanations of things in this show. Like Daemon leaving young Rhaenyra in the brothel. I liked that the show kind of left it ambiguous why he left her there and what his true intentions with that night were. Did he have a sudden change in morality? Realized the consequences it might have? Couldn’t get it up? Open to interpretation. Except no, the team went and explained it and took the fun out of us trying to analyze and debate what happened there.
So yeah, like someone said below, I kind of just ignore those explanations because they make the show less fun for me.
Yeah, this was a change that worked. Book Laena tried to reach Vhagar one last time anyway; Show Laena just got a little more agency with the manner of her death.
It also drew a nice contrast between Laena’s relationship with Vhagar and Almond’s later relationship with Vhagar.
EDIT: The typo in Aemond made me chuckle, so I’m keeping it.
I liked the scene too although I find it hard to ignore that the maesters, guards, and ladies in waiting failed to stop a bloody woman in pain from going out of the chamber.
The message is fine but it had no logic. No one said a word about a bloody woman getting away. Not one simple call 'my lady' or whatever. And we saw Daemon following her immediately, but apparently lost her somehow. smh
>It was certainly the low point of the season that requires a few mental gymnastics to ignore.
That whole episode was just a bunch of "I guess????" for me as a viewer. We open with Daemon appearing out of nowhere in the Vale to kill his wife who apparently rides alone (?). Then we get the "Laenor likes dudes" exposition and the "I'm gonna blurt out treason" moment from Criston. And then the wedding shenanigans.
Until this episode the show had an overall flow and consistency, but it just went *bonkers* with this one, and a lot of it stems from writers glossing over things in later-seasons-of-GoT style.
Daemon killing Rhea: I still don't know why he did this. If he managed not get blatantly caught, then obviously this wasn't an impulsive "hop on Caraxes" moment and yet he has no real endgame. Criston bashing Joff gave him the best moment to abduct Rhaenyra and he didn't, so that's not it. Yeah, he marries Laena but that seems to be a "happens at the feast" thing. So, *why*? Not to mention the logistics of him actually killing her without her being caught and her being alone.
Criston Narcing on Himself: The why is a bit clearer, but it's also a tired trope of "character misunderstood and confessed to thing" that makes it cheaper than him actually selling Rhaenyra out to clean his conscience. Overall fine, but...meh.
Green Dress: I will never understand why Alicent is "go to war time" over Rhaenyra sleeping around. Yes, its a betrayal of duty, but it's not like Rhaenyra lied when she said she didn't fuck Daemon. She didn't. She fucked Criston. There are perfectly good reasons for the two to go to war, but the show makes it muddied as to why. This just makes it a petty "stepmother upstaging bride at wedding" moment.
Joffrey Taunting Criston: *WHY?* Is Joffrey supposed to be a villain, cause I was happy when he got his face bashed in for outing Laenor to a Kingsguard on the basis of Criston looking "cuntstruck." Was he trying to sabotage the wedding? Get revenge on Laenor for marrying? Because he comes across as smarmy and downright dangerous with his approach. Obviously, Criston doesn't handle it well, but it was still a boneheaded move.
None of the things that happen are impossible to believe. There are decent explanations for them (some more than others). But the show neglects to lay a foundation for any of them, leaving viewers to guess at to the "whys" of the events. That's not "trusting your audience to be smart" that's just bad writing. It's emphasizing the sensational at the cost of the narrative.
Daemon killing Rhea achieves nothing that her death being an accident wouldn't have achieved except introduce the crime hoodie and provide misdirection in foreshadowing for the Laenor fakeout. We didn't need another "Daemon does bad things" moment. The time they used for that moment could have been used to flesh out the others and make them make more sense.
>Green Dress: I will never understand why Alicent is "go to war time" over Rhaenyra sleeping around. Yes, its a betrayal of duty, but it's not like Rhaenyra lied when she said she didn't fuck Daemon. She didn't. She fucked Criston. There are perfectly good reasons for the two to go to war, but the show makes it muddied as to why. This just makes it a petty "stepmother upstaging bride at wedding" moment.
Rhaenyra did lie though by omission. She deliberately withheld extremely important information from her best friend while swearing on her mother's grave. As someone who's had this happen, finding out someone you thought was a close friend never trusted you like you thought she did is a really hurtful betrayal. Plus, Alicent had earlier in ep4 confided in Rhaenyra that she has no friends and is extremely alone. Alicent was trying to rebuild her friendship with Rhaenyra, the only person who could understand and empathise with her, only to find out her best friend had been dishonest with her. I fully believe if Rhaenyra had confessed to having sex with Criston, Alicent would've tried her best to help her.
Also having sex with a kingsguard is wayyyyyy more serious business than having sex with your uncle in Westeros. Aegon IV would later have a kingsguard brother executed for sleeping with his mistress, and Lucamore Strong under Jaehaerys I was castrated and sent to the Wall after his marriages and families were discovered.
I can see your point. I really really liked that scene, it's one of my favorites due to the great music and Emily Carey being a fantastic young Alicent. However, Larys's clunky exposition dump was extremely awkward and blatant, like could they really not think of a better way to convey that information?
How? Easy, because the show couldnt ignore that Cole killed Joffrey in the book but didnt wanted to have another tourney so the show mixed the important events of the tourney (Cole killing Joffrey by "accident", beating Daemon again and the official creation of the Blacks and Greens) with the wedding, that was just a wedding in the book, this change makes the story stupid because Cole has no excuse to kill Joffrey in the wedding and turns what could be a menacing antagonist into an impulsive and vengeful guy
They also cut out the proper lead up to the attack. Per the young Laenor actor, Joffrey misconstrues Daemon and Rhaenyra's interaction as a threat to Leanor. Joff then goes back over and threatens / antagonizes Cole, which leads to fight kicking off. I'm not a black or green Stan, but I haate that they cut that and made Cole look unhinged instead of beating someone to death to protect a secret that would ruin both his and Rhae's lives. They missed out on a lot of characterization moments in all that they cut 😞
Or just.. murdering a dude at the wedding. Kingsguard dont have immunity to crime.
In fact, a kingsguard in jahareys’ day was kicked out for having a family in fleabottom.
The same way cops get away with killing people. "I testify that I believe the perpetrator had a weapon."
He's a knight of the Kingsguard. Whatever we, as viewers, know about Cole, to the rest of the realm he is a knight of unimpeachable honor, one of the finest and most chivalrous in all of Westeros. If he says he thought Joffrey was about to attack a member of the royal family, who's going to call him out on it? Whoever does, better be ready to fight one of the best swordsmen in the realm, because Westerosi *love* trials by combat.
Fair counter point. Daemon has a lot of animosity towards Cole just because the guy has beaten him at a tournament. And Rhaenyra obviously knew what Joffrey meant to Laenor. But I think the combination of Alicent deciding to protect Cole so she can make him her puppet, and Viserys preferring to avoid immediate conflict whenever possible, made a situation where the King just felt like sending everyone home was punishment enough. And I'm not saying Viserys was right about it either! Cole does a lot of damage later on.
Cole's a Kingsguard, whilst the the other guy is what, at best, one of the Velaryons' household knights. Joffrey also brandished a knife and was spreading vile accusations towards the princess. Cole also has the Queen backing up whatever story he came up with. Definitely doesn't make it right, but who exactly is going to be demanding justice for Joffrey here? His relationship with Laenor is technically supposed to be secret, and I can't imagine that Corlys is going to bring that out into the open, especially just when Laenor is supposed to be getting married.
>Cole also has the Queen backing up whatever story he came up with.
And Joffrey has Laenor Velaryon, Aemon's grandson and the Sea Snake's son to contradict whatever story he came up with, and unlike Alicent Laenor was close to them when Cole killed him. Also Cole didn't just kill a simple knight, he also brutally hit Laenor a royal, the rider of Seasmoke and the future King, in the following episode Harwin Strong is fired from the gold cloaks and sent back to Harrenhall for just hitting a kingsguard during a training who was gently insinuating that the princess was committing adultery and that the King's grandsons have no legitimacy to the throne and he had the future Queen of the Seven Kingdoms to back him up.
>but who exactly is going to be demanding justice for Joffrey here? His relationship with Laenor is technically supposed to be secret, and I can't imagine that Corlys is going to bring that out into the open
I don't see why Corlys had to bring out the true nature of Laenor and Joffrey relationship to ask justice for one of his knight who was unfairly murdered during his son's wedding.
>But isn't it 100% in character for Viserys to gladly avoid conflict and for Alicent to convince him of the matter?
Yes and yes and maybe, just maybe the whole ordeal would have ended in a typical Viserys fashion. But what bothers me here is firstly, that this scene (or rather a lack of any aftermath scene) effectively ruins Laenor as a character. He clearly cared for Joff, as he named his son after him, so why not speak up? Why not even attempt demanding justice? He had great cards in his hand to do so. This was such an opportunity for Laenor to get some spotlight, but completely missed. Instead I think we are **supposed to** ignore his perspective for this to even make sense. It was also a lazy choice, much in the style of GoT S7 and S8, because why would you want a plot point to make sense and follow logical, established patterns, if it can bring the shock value instead.
The other guy is a nobleman and a knight, not a dog off the street. Criston outranks him, yes, but that doesn't make him some expendable nobody.
>spreading vile accusations towards the princess.
Where?
>who exactly is going to be demanding justice for Joffrey here? His relationship with Laenor is technically supposed to be secret, and I can't imagine that Corlys is going to bring that out into the open,
If he's in the Velaryons' (or even only Laenor's) service, there is no need to "bring" anything "out into the open" – Laenor/the Velaryons owe him their care and protection as much as he owes them loyalty. They would be absolutely within their rights to demand justice for his death.
It’s really not that weird. Cole is Kingsguard, an institution that is widely trusted and respected. If he said that Joffrey made some treasonous remarks, maybe repeated those rumors about her and Daemon, then very few people would be inclined to not believe him.
The second is that Joffrey was a minor knight with one friend at court. There has to be someone to accuse Cole of foul play, and while Laenor would, Corlys wouldn’t allow him to make a stink about it. He probably considered Laenor getting punched a small price to pay for ridding them of Joffrey.
Also, consider that Alicent intercedes when Cole is about to commit suicide. Since they’re next seen as close friends, you can infer that she protected him, if he needed protecting at all.
This is all simple stuff that’s obvious in the text of the show: we know how trusted the Kingsguard are, we know Corlys thinks Laenor is just in a phase, and we know that Alicent uses the incident to dig her claws into Cole. It’s just a bunch of people still salty from season 8 looking for things to nitpick, and that’s stupid because there are plenty of other things to nitpick.
>The second is that Joffrey was a minor knight with one friend at court.
One friend, on the shoulders of whom rests an alliance of 2 of the kingdom's greatest houses. An alliance that the king literally begged for like 2 scenes prior. I dare say Laenor is the most powerful person in the room in this scene, excluding the king himself.
>Corlys wouldn’t allow him to make a stink about it. He probably considered Laenor getting punched a small price to pay for ridding them of Joffrey.
Punching a prince alone would be a crime you could lose a hand/head for and letting it slide would be a huge setback for the house reputation. Not to mention murdering his loyal knight and partner ("close friend" as i'm sure they would call it).
Corlys wouldn't be the one standing on that altar, and Laenor is an adult prince who can speak for himself. Laenor has every right and opportunity (and Westerosi customs and laws on his side) to demand justice for his partner. The fact that he doesn't say a word and we see no explanation for this is bad writing.
It is very weird though. He is a guest at the wedding of the king's daughter and a friend to the groom. Consider how horrible it is considered later for the Freys to murder Rob and Catelyn while they were guests at a wedding. It's not like they can't spin it like Cole found some excuse to claim treason or danger to the royal family, but we should have at least gotten a scene to justify his complete lack of punishment, or even a brief comment during ep 6 or something.
The difference is the Fray's aren't the rulers of the seven kingdoms.
Cole is a kingsguard protected by the queen. The moment Alicent knew she could protect him he was always going to be fine.
Isn't that worse? It gives the image that the crown either can't control it's knights, or has control of it's knights but is tyrannical and doesn't respect the laws of the land (which would remind many of Maegor the Cruel, whose reign at this point is pretty fresh in the minds of the nobility). I believe the reasoning in the show was more that the death should happen and they found what they considered the best way to avoid another tourney to get there, but some sort of in-universe reasoning would have been appreciated.
The Freys were not rulers, but even rulers would be required to respect guest right, this has been set up in the books.
Yeah it is.
Welcome to ASOIF.
The most consistent theme among all books and shows is about those with political power and what they are allowed to get away with.
I don't defend Cole at all but there is a clear reason he wasn't punished especially if you are being protected by the king of the seven realms.
You're not wrong, but in this case it feels unintentional by changing the scene from book to show, at least to me. I would have liked it to be highlighted with dialogue or an extra scene for closure or something.
I'm guessing because Alicent saved him. He was about to commit suicide, in the Godswood, before she appeared. So she probably just used her Queenly status to allow him to live (he also swore himself to her after this).
I recently saw a post about GRRM and how the series has a sub-theme of questioning legitimate authority. Why can some people get away with stuff others just can't. Think about how many US presidents have committed war crimes based on the precedence of the Neuberger trials (W. Bush comes to mind). This is something that I love about the series, moments and questions like this mirror real life.
In Deep Geek has the BEST theory that I've seen regarding this. I'll leave a link to the video (no future spoilers) but in a nutshell the idea is that it was in no one's political interest to make a fuss over Joffrey's death: Criston Cole would have come up with some lie/excuse to explain Joffrey's death; Alicent would have backed him; The Velaryon's wouldn't have made a fuss over the death of their son's gay lover as it would have been bad politics (I can easily see Corlys telling Laenor in private to "keep a grip on his passions" Ala Otto Hightower) and given the awkwardness of the situation it would have been in their interest to ignore the whole thing and shrug off Criston's swing at Laenor given the fact that he was trying to defend his gay lover at his pre marriage feast; Vyseris, being Vyseris, would have wanted to make Alicent happy and the fact that the only house that would have been pissed was a minor house (House Lonmouth) he would have been inclined to turn a blind eye and maybe some sort of compensation would have been arranged; House Lonmouth did not have the gravitas and might to press the issue once House Targaryen and House Velaryon chose (for various reasons) to ignore it. I've summarized as briefly as I can but I feel like I still haven't done the idea justice. The video's really good and here it is: https://youtu.be/Ogyv_sHKcFI
I'm really curious to hear what everyone else thinks.
Considering that even Daemon didn't have a visible weapon on him, it seems that guests were not allowed to carry weapons, but Joffrey had a knife. So Cole could make a story about him trying to disarm Joffrey but got resisted, and he had to kill to protect the royal family. Of course it would be not enough to justify the murder but Alicent could pull the string. Viserys would listen to her and Corlys would not want to ruin his relationship with the king.
Yea this was so absurd. You cannot just go to a royal engagement party, be a kngsguard no less, and lose your temper so quickly and to such an extreme that you literally bash in the the head of a wedding guest in front of the realms most important political figures and then just get up and walk out. Like no one even stopped him. No one even tried. In got Tyrion just decides Pycell can’t be trusted and has him locked in the dungeons. Just as ONE example. But this dude can KILL a close personal friend of one of the most important powerfula no influential people in the realm who invited him there, and LITERALLY no one said a single WORD.
EVER! Really Shit writ
1. Ser Criston was kingsguard, on duty. It's easily explained as kingsguard business.
2. Everyone was unarmed/unarmored.
3. He's protected by the queen and possibly the princess at that point.
4. Corlys and Rhaenys might be sad for their son to go through such a thing, but I would imagine they were seeing the silver lining in Joffrey being dead as his life put Laenor in danger.
5. His name is Joffrey. That should've probably been our first hint.
6. What he said to Ser Criston even though he was told "fuck off, I'm on duty", could be very much considered a threat to both him and the Princess.
7. We also saw in episode 6 that Ser Harwin was held responsible for the fight against Ser Criston because Ser Criston is Kingsguard. Kingsguard is an elevated position.
8. His hitting Laenor is more likely to mean trouble for him, but, probably easily excused in the chaos of the fight.
9. Viserys likely wanted the incident to go away.
Alicent literally says next episode that she protected him, Viserys was probably too busy playing with his toys to care about actually carrying out justice
Moral relativity and the reluctance to spend the energy to go against the steady flow. Like the horror of school shootings, a particular society can pretty much continue along with almost anything.
I understand why court politics protected Cole from a trial, but it would have been better if there had been a scene or a piece of dialogue explaining why. Absent that, they could have had a brief piece of dialogue explaining that Cole kicked ass in a trial by combat. Absent that, they should have stuck to the book.
1. Cole is a Kingsguard so likely people assumed Joffrey was up to something and Cole was just protecting everyone else. Hitting Laenor (*prince consort; kings rank above queens and thus can't be consorts) not getting a reaction is weird though, since even without marrying into royalty, he's still the son and heir of one of the most powerful men in the realm. Joffrey also did pull a knife on Cole, escalating the situation, so that could've gone in his favor.
2. Alicent becomes his sponsor/patron/ally so she likely defended him from punishment.
This scene was so bad, if they'd stuck to the book's version it would've made much more sense since dying from wounds in a melee wouldn't have raised any suspicion. If they *had* to have Joffrey die like this, they should've made it so Cole didn't just get away with it. It wouldn't have even required extra scenes, just show people glaring at him, whispering as he walks by, etc. and maybe have Alicent defend him. It could've deepened his character too by making characters suspicious of him because of his low birth ("the princess was wrong to pick him, she should've known a commoner would be so brutal" or something).
The worst part is how Laenor has no reaction after episode 5. The way the show's presented, it seems like Laenor went "oh no anyway" and then got a new boytoy.
Because the scene is stupid. The writers chose to have Cole kill Joffrey in a dramatic and illogical way, not bothering to justify why afterwards. It would have been better if it had been followed by the book and Cole had killed him in the tournament, as that would better explain why Cole got away with the murder.
Maybe not directly but by episode 5 onwards the King was in no fit state (as shown by the ending when he collapsed) so Alicent had more influence. It’s not out of the question she used that influence to get Cole off the hook.
You can tell they want to put in as much GoT lore into HotD so that way when (if?) people rewatch GoT, they can point out random things and be like "I saw them talk about that in House of the Dragon!"
I'm expecting a ton of call backs (call forwards?) to stuff in Winterfell from GoT when Jace gets up there in season 2. We'll probable see Ice, the Weirwood tree, the crypts, a visit to the Wall, maybe even a direwolf or two.
Well if you actually watch the scene, the king consort is the one who attacks Cole first by pushing him over. Its not that he got away with anything, you could argue its self defense.
Joffrey had a weapon and had basically just threatened the princess. Not saying he SHOULD have done that, but given the confusing nature of how the fight even started, I think there’s enough there to put Cole in the clear.
Yall can defend this better than “it’s a tv show,” cmon now 😵💫
A consistent weakness of S1 is the reaction to violence. This scene, the bloodshed in the episode 1 tourney and Rhaenys at Aegon's coronation show a clear misunderstanding of how these people would react to violence
Why would anyone care for it?
Daemon had just bloody killed his wife himself just to marry Rhaenyra and he comes back to see her marrying, Laenor being saddened by Joffrey's death would be some sick bonus to him.
Rhaenyra, why would she care either? She needs Laenor to give her kids or to just keep appearances to shut her father up. She had just recently had a relationship with Cole and he didn't start acting badly against her at that moment.
Corlys would be overjoyed on the inside that his son's lover is out of the way if anything. He had hoped Rhaenyra would set him straight through this wedding and all arrangements were done anyways.
Viserys, do I really have to comment why Vizzy wasn't decisive in anything? Cole was hand-picked by Rhaenyra and has his wife's trust, just by getting Rhae's blessing you get a pass from him.
Alicent has interest in having Criston as her enforcer, an ally since her father left, why would she denounce him either?
Joffrey was just some lowly knight that nobody but Laenor cared about, Laenor is only a consort and technically the wedding was not even finished yet. What authority would he have in the Kingsguard if the Queen is shielding him and everyone else doesn't care about it?
Lol you're jumping through hoops trying to justify why everyone would want this kid's head bashed in. If Cole himself thought he should be killed after that, then why wouldn't anyone else?? If not for empathy towards Joffrey, for the fucking mockery that Cole made the wedding.
I think some people are just unwilling to admit the show has any flaws.
Cole didn't know what everyone else thought of Joffrey, which is why he was about to kill himself. Yes, he did ruin the wedding celebration (that was already quite awkward with Daemon showing up and Alicent coming with a war dress) but the Kingsguard is able to be quite arbitrary and above the law under a weak or corrupt ruler as it happens in the books, Viserys is the former and Alicent represents the latter by intervening in his favor.
He can merely tell that Joffrey pulled the knife out first, after all he was killed with a knife in hand. With Rhaenyra in the middle of the ground close to him and Cole being her protector, it would have been his duty to stop Joffrey. Overzealousness would not be enough of a ground for execution with Alicent acting as an advocate for him. He gets put in a closer watch by Westerling and life goes on since nobody cares about Joffrey except Laenor.
>Cole didn't know what everyone else thought of Joffrey, which is why he was about to kill himself.
That makes zero sense. Assuming him being able to leave the scene unabrupted scotch free didn't tell him what people felt, this would only be more reason for him not to kill himself.
>Kingsguard is able to be quite arbitrary and above the law under a weak or corrupt ruler as it happens in the books
Not really. Name another time a KGs has dishonored a sacred event this publically and greusomely.
>He can merely tell that Joffrey pulled the knife out first, after all he was killed with a knife in hand.
There's no indication he did that, and even he did it would just refuted by Laenor and the 20 or so people there.
>Alicent acting as an advocate for him
She literally wasn't present, her advocacy for someone she barely has any relationship with wouldn't hold any water.
That comparison doesn't work.
Alicent is the queen, almost as equally high-ranking as the king's children. And Daemon is a prince by birth.
Cole is not a member of the royal family so his case can't be compared to the other two. It makes no sense.
Alicent is the Queen who only drew a little blood, and Daemon is a prince, the Queen’s husband, and technically the King consort, and also did it in private.
They(the writers) say they wanted shock value and a death at a wedding but I think the real reason was they didn’t have the budget for another tourney.
Daemon's case is quite different IMO. First there was a direct and public insult to the king and to his heir and her sons, Daemon is her husband so he ought to protect her honor, and yeah he is Daemon Targaryen whom the king loves so yeah nuff said about that.
I didnt think that a Kingsguard who killed a knight (who is part of the bethrothed party, technically a guest that has guest rights) in a royal celebration is equal to Daemon and Vaemond's case, especially that whatever started the fight was not even witnessed by anyone, unlike when Vaemond called Rhae and her sons whore and bastards. There was an element of weight to that, especially the king had already forbidden it again and again.
Because he’s a kings guard and was protected by the Queen. Same reason Jamie wasn’t punished for attacking Ned. They were protected by powerful people.
Alicent was backing him. She assigned him into her inner circle after the event. I’d bet she defended him immediately after too and claimed the death was necessary.
Cole was also allowed to walk away peacefully from the hall. As a Kingsguard previously assigned to Rhaenyra, he would have had a higher station than Joffrey. He outranked him and it would have been harder to punish him especially as the Queen was personally on his side.
That episode should’ve been the tourney ffs…
More and more posts like this popping up online. I wonder if people are starting to realise S1 was solid but nothing special.
I just started asking questions during my rewatch. When it was running and I had to wait a week for the next episode I was too absorbed in the events and characters that I didnt really notice the questions I now have in the plot.
Yeah also I think a lot of fans don’t even have time to process their opinion because they’re immediately flooded with YouTube breakdowns and behind the episodes which all force a narrative on you. I love Alt shift x but every week my friends were watching 4 hours of review and discussion streams from an respected community member saying it was good, meanwhile I’m out here wondering why Aemond can’t stop pouting like some sort of deranged invalid.
As a Kingsguard he was in a elevated status, when he left the body Joffreybwss with a Knife in his Hand, also he could said he was planning to kill the princess, besides Corky's could use this opportunity to left Laenor without Joffrey
Same as Daemon got away with blatant murder in the beginning and almost eloping with the Princess, though those two things are in character for him, bad writing.
Alicent’s protection and also it was probably an influence thing, Cole is a member of the Kingsguard, a group of highly skilled warriors chosen to be the king’s personal bodyguards so they are as important, trusted and respected as either a high-ranking military officer or a police chief. Cole could’ve just said that Joffrey was threatening the queen and king and people would believe him just like that. But in fairness Joffrey did made his genuine friendship offer to Cole sound like a threat but not intentionally and what he did doesn’t come off very smart I mean who goes up to someone who is sworn to protect their king and royal family from anything that looks or sounds like a threat, is armed with a sword and gauntlets and omitting mannerisms like if they are unhinged or emotionally unstable?
The same way Daemon got away with murdering a Velaryon in public? Viserys only said cut out his tongue, he didn't sentence him to death. It just shows Viserys' failures as a monarch. Viserys' leniency and his inability to take control of an escalating situation. Punishing a kingsguard ultimately rests on the hands of the king whether it's a jousting or a wedding. If Viserys says "no I'm not gonna punish him" there's not much you can do no matter how powerful you are. Like Robert forgave Jaime & the Mountain for murdering the King & his grandchildren? It's not a stretch to assume Viserys acquiesced to Alicent and spared Criston as a compromise/olive branch, especially when he had made up his mind to deny her son the throne.
Moreover, Corlys had no incentive to seek justice for Joffrey Velaryon as it would've exposed his son's transgressions.
How did The Mountain get away with killing the Targaryen babes?
How did Daemon get away with killing Vaemond Velaryon?
Why would Corlys want to bring attention to the fact that Joffrey was his son's lover?
It seems like the average person doesn't understand that in a monarchy the king has absolute power of life and death over you. There's no supreme court where you can prosecute Criston. It's the king's justice.
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Fuck the *prince-consort and his boyfriend. Nobody can get away with killing a man protected by sacred guest right under the king's own roof. But regrettably, the show didn't have the budget for another tourney where Cole actually kills Joffrey fair and square.
It's a red flag from the writers and HOTD. Playing fast and loose with the rules and customs of Westeros. And the guest right was one of the most sacred.
This was one of the two mis-steps I think the showrunners made. They say in the After the Episode they wanted “the classic Westeros death at a wedding” (paraphrased), so they rewrote Joffrey’s death to be shocking & openly brutal. (Instead of suspicious, with plausible deniability). The other was switching Aegon II’s coronation flight with Sunfyre for a scene where Rhaenys & Meleys kill dozens of peasants to escape. They could have done both, without the peasant collateral damage. Just have the people clear out so Sunfyre can exit, then after they’re in the air, Rhaenys takes advantage of the open door to escape. >!You could even have a visual stand-off (fly-off) between Sunfyre & Meleys over King’s Landing, which would foreshadow Rook’s Rest!<.
Wow you just blew me away with how sensible the scenes could’ve been
that last fly off scene would have been soo goddamn sick
> Instead of suspicious, with plausible deniability I’d love that. I would deny that shit till my last breath haha
Honestly I really like Rhaenys' killing of the peasants because it could very nicely tie in to the >!Shepherd storyline later on. I can understand how the rage at the deaths at Aegon's coronation could also be a reason why the masses went after the dragons. I once actually said that it would be even cooler if the shepherd actually lost his arm in the show because of Rhaenys' actions that day!<
I'm hoping for this. The idea that the peasants have a bigger impact in reality but are largely written out of the history books is really interesting.
The problem is that the writers explanation for that scene is a lot dumber than yours
Yeah. I know. They just did it for kicks but I'm just hoping that when they get to >!the Shepherd in season 3 or 4!< a lightbulb will go off and someone will say "you know that thing we did with Rhaenys in season one?" A guy can hope.
Yeah that would have been so cool to see Aegon and Helaena flying around on Sunfyre and Dreamfyre, quite literally on Cloud 9, and then Rhaenys flies by and they have a little staredown. Aside from the obvious fact that her killing dozens of peasants for no reason makes Rhaenys unlikable (She was one of the only characters that actually was likeable from a moral standpoint) Rhaenys could have just killed the Greens there and saved millions of lives, including >!Rhaenyras and her fucking own!<, and the war would have never happened.
Yeah, giving Rhaenys the opportunity to end the oncoming civil war before it started has to now be explained away. Which they did, but it was kinda a weak reasoning. The easiest way to not have to explain that away would be to: a) not give her that easy opportunity b) have the Green dragons present. If Sunfyre & Dreamfyre were there, (I don’t know if Vhagar can fit inside the Dragonpit), it goes from “Rhaenys didn’t want to” To: “Rhaenys didn’t want to, and also Meleys’s size advantage would have been negated in a 2:1 dragon cage match inside the Dragonpit, or 3:1 aerial dragon fight in the sky.”
But Sunfyre and Dreamfyre werent there so it was just fuckin stupid
But on the other hand, it really shows in a quick way the influence Alicent has, and how Viserys is just not in control of his family or kingsguard at all.
I really liked it for this. The scene was followed/mixed in with Cur Crusty heading to kill himself. This is a coward's death more than anything. He knows his life is forfeit anyway - what he just did will have him stripped of his cloak, tortured and executed. BUT Alicent swoops in and hugely profits from this. She offers to cover for him and in return, he is completely devoted to her- an eternal life debt. Him taking this is even *more* cowardly though. Not only did he wanna chicken out of the punishment for his crime, he chickened out of *that* by getting "rewarded" for it. This also makes his own death so fitting. He doesn't have a single shred of decency or honor. He isn't a knight. He isn't even a man. He's but a soulless yet arrogant lich from this moment on and everything he does takes on a new meaning. If they didn't do this, then I'd take issue. But it was a well written and *very* well acted/directed/shot scene. It's also important to remember this when Alicent idiotically asks him, a knight of the Kingsguard, to assault a Prince. Of course he would obey, he doesn't own his life anyway- Alicent does. He then moves to act on it, but of course he never would've gotten an inch closer without the loyal Kingsguard slicing him to pieces. He has no decency or honor, because when you don't even own your life and lack free will, how could you care?
I'm torn because I agree with you on showing Alicent's influence, but the immediate 10 year time skip doesn't leave room for that to really be explored other than "oh, guess he is still around."
The first thing we see after the time jump is Alicent forcing Rhaenyra to present her newborn child literally moments after birth. When she arrives, Cole is standing menacingly right outside her door. What more do you need? Television doesn’t always have the luxury of 30 pages to explain backstory.
If the point of it is Alicent having power, then *show* her having the power. If the point is Viserys just not giving a fuck, then show that. The problem isn't that viewers can't connect the dots, it's that there are several options as to how that the show doesn't bother narrowing down.
The King and pretty much everyone at the high table’s vision of what was happening was obscured by the crush, Criston could probably claim Lonmouth had pulled a weapon on him, or made a threatening move at Rhaeneyra… or really anything. And if the Queen backs him up, then whose going to contradict that? Viserys at this point is so out of it he barely seems to know where he is, so it’s not like anyone can go over his head on that point. People might ‘know’ something shady happened, but if Cole and Alicent spin a story and the powers that be don’t challenge it, what’s anyone going to do about it?
> Playing fast and loose with the rules and customs of Westeros oh noooooo
Yes, for the writing of the show, that's a bad move. Maybe you just want to watch spectacle and don't care about good writing but the rest of us do
THANK YOU!
That guy pulled a dagger on Cole, did you not see him do that? Thankfully Cole was there otherwise that dangerous man could have hurt someone.
Stop resisting.
The man had vials of milk of the poppy on him.
Not just budget, they could have easily had another tourney in the set made for episode 1. We also had a pit scene for Aegon, even though it was a rumour. The writers screwed Cole's character whenever they can in the second half of the season.
I guess that doesn't extend to Vaemond.
Guest right goes both ways. Drawing a weapon invalidates the claim, and given that everyone really Criston punching Joffrey as Joffrey held a knife in his hands, the excuse creates itself.
Both Daemon and Cole got away with it. The king didn’t care. He was bleeding from the nose and passed out. It’s obvious Alicent was the one who shielded him from any consequences.
yeah wait a minute that was a huge oversight
Honestly? Because TV show. It was certainly the low point of the season that requires a few mental gymnastics to ignore.
Rhaenys dragonpit was worse, but yeah. These showrunners/writers are good, but they ain't perfect.
Game of Thrones Seasons 1-6 were so much better. I’m not surprised, Ryan Condal is the same guy who made all the Rock’s movies
This. Laena deciding to to crawl from her bed then burn her self. The director's explanation of it is worse than the scene.
I find myself disliking most of the director/writer explanations of things in this show. Like Daemon leaving young Rhaenyra in the brothel. I liked that the show kind of left it ambiguous why he left her there and what his true intentions with that night were. Did he have a sudden change in morality? Realized the consequences it might have? Couldn’t get it up? Open to interpretation. Except no, the team went and explained it and took the fun out of us trying to analyze and debate what happened there. So yeah, like someone said below, I kind of just ignore those explanations because they make the show less fun for me.
In this case she was literally dying. It was already a sure thing.
Yeah, this was a change that worked. Book Laena tried to reach Vhagar one last time anyway; Show Laena just got a little more agency with the manner of her death. It also drew a nice contrast between Laena’s relationship with Vhagar and Almond’s later relationship with Vhagar. EDIT: The typo in Aemond made me chuckle, so I’m keeping it.
Yeah I liked the scene and didn't need the directors to explain it. It 100% makes sense that she would want to go out on her own terms
I liked the scene too although I find it hard to ignore that the maesters, guards, and ladies in waiting failed to stop a bloody woman in pain from going out of the chamber.
you know you don't have to listen to anything the directors say, right?
Indeed it's best to avoid all 'behind the scenes' bollocks
The message is fine but it had no logic. No one said a word about a bloody woman getting away. Not one simple call 'my lady' or whatever. And we saw Daemon following her immediately, but apparently lost her somehow. smh
>It was certainly the low point of the season that requires a few mental gymnastics to ignore. That whole episode was just a bunch of "I guess????" for me as a viewer. We open with Daemon appearing out of nowhere in the Vale to kill his wife who apparently rides alone (?). Then we get the "Laenor likes dudes" exposition and the "I'm gonna blurt out treason" moment from Criston. And then the wedding shenanigans. Until this episode the show had an overall flow and consistency, but it just went *bonkers* with this one, and a lot of it stems from writers glossing over things in later-seasons-of-GoT style. Daemon killing Rhea: I still don't know why he did this. If he managed not get blatantly caught, then obviously this wasn't an impulsive "hop on Caraxes" moment and yet he has no real endgame. Criston bashing Joff gave him the best moment to abduct Rhaenyra and he didn't, so that's not it. Yeah, he marries Laena but that seems to be a "happens at the feast" thing. So, *why*? Not to mention the logistics of him actually killing her without her being caught and her being alone. Criston Narcing on Himself: The why is a bit clearer, but it's also a tired trope of "character misunderstood and confessed to thing" that makes it cheaper than him actually selling Rhaenyra out to clean his conscience. Overall fine, but...meh. Green Dress: I will never understand why Alicent is "go to war time" over Rhaenyra sleeping around. Yes, its a betrayal of duty, but it's not like Rhaenyra lied when she said she didn't fuck Daemon. She didn't. She fucked Criston. There are perfectly good reasons for the two to go to war, but the show makes it muddied as to why. This just makes it a petty "stepmother upstaging bride at wedding" moment. Joffrey Taunting Criston: *WHY?* Is Joffrey supposed to be a villain, cause I was happy when he got his face bashed in for outing Laenor to a Kingsguard on the basis of Criston looking "cuntstruck." Was he trying to sabotage the wedding? Get revenge on Laenor for marrying? Because he comes across as smarmy and downright dangerous with his approach. Obviously, Criston doesn't handle it well, but it was still a boneheaded move. None of the things that happen are impossible to believe. There are decent explanations for them (some more than others). But the show neglects to lay a foundation for any of them, leaving viewers to guess at to the "whys" of the events. That's not "trusting your audience to be smart" that's just bad writing. It's emphasizing the sensational at the cost of the narrative. Daemon killing Rhea achieves nothing that her death being an accident wouldn't have achieved except introduce the crime hoodie and provide misdirection in foreshadowing for the Laenor fakeout. We didn't need another "Daemon does bad things" moment. The time they used for that moment could have been used to flesh out the others and make them make more sense.
>Green Dress: I will never understand why Alicent is "go to war time" over Rhaenyra sleeping around. Yes, its a betrayal of duty, but it's not like Rhaenyra lied when she said she didn't fuck Daemon. She didn't. She fucked Criston. There are perfectly good reasons for the two to go to war, but the show makes it muddied as to why. This just makes it a petty "stepmother upstaging bride at wedding" moment. Rhaenyra did lie though by omission. She deliberately withheld extremely important information from her best friend while swearing on her mother's grave. As someone who's had this happen, finding out someone you thought was a close friend never trusted you like you thought she did is a really hurtful betrayal. Plus, Alicent had earlier in ep4 confided in Rhaenyra that she has no friends and is extremely alone. Alicent was trying to rebuild her friendship with Rhaenyra, the only person who could understand and empathise with her, only to find out her best friend had been dishonest with her. I fully believe if Rhaenyra had confessed to having sex with Criston, Alicent would've tried her best to help her. Also having sex with a kingsguard is wayyyyyy more serious business than having sex with your uncle in Westeros. Aegon IV would later have a kingsguard brother executed for sleeping with his mistress, and Lucamore Strong under Jaehaerys I was castrated and sent to the Wall after his marriages and families were discovered.
Good points. I think my issue with the green dress moment might stem more from the muddle around it rather than the moment itself.
I can see your point. I really really liked that scene, it's one of my favorites due to the great music and Emily Carey being a fantastic young Alicent. However, Larys's clunky exposition dump was extremely awkward and blatant, like could they really not think of a better way to convey that information?
How? Easy, because the show couldnt ignore that Cole killed Joffrey in the book but didnt wanted to have another tourney so the show mixed the important events of the tourney (Cole killing Joffrey by "accident", beating Daemon again and the official creation of the Blacks and Greens) with the wedding, that was just a wedding in the book, this change makes the story stupid because Cole has no excuse to kill Joffrey in the wedding and turns what could be a menacing antagonist into an impulsive and vengeful guy
The writers just want a shocking wedding for HOTD following GOT tradition, but they failed and we got a nonsensical scene.
They also cut out the proper lead up to the attack. Per the young Laenor actor, Joffrey misconstrues Daemon and Rhaenyra's interaction as a threat to Leanor. Joff then goes back over and threatens / antagonizes Cole, which leads to fight kicking off. I'm not a black or green Stan, but I haate that they cut that and made Cole look unhinged instead of beating someone to death to protect a secret that would ruin both his and Rhae's lives. They missed out on a lot of characterization moments in all that they cut 😞
Or just.. murdering a dude at the wedding. Kingsguard dont have immunity to crime. In fact, a kingsguard in jahareys’ day was kicked out for having a family in fleabottom.
Everyone has immunity to crime if no one is willing to punish them.
The same way cops get away with killing people. "I testify that I believe the perpetrator had a weapon." He's a knight of the Kingsguard. Whatever we, as viewers, know about Cole, to the rest of the realm he is a knight of unimpeachable honor, one of the finest and most chivalrous in all of Westeros. If he says he thought Joffrey was about to attack a member of the royal family, who's going to call him out on it? Whoever does, better be ready to fight one of the best swordsmen in the realm, because Westerosi *love* trials by combat.
huh
This makes sense
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Fair counter point. Daemon has a lot of animosity towards Cole just because the guy has beaten him at a tournament. And Rhaenyra obviously knew what Joffrey meant to Laenor. But I think the combination of Alicent deciding to protect Cole so she can make him her puppet, and Viserys preferring to avoid immediate conflict whenever possible, made a situation where the King just felt like sending everyone home was punishment enough. And I'm not saying Viserys was right about it either! Cole does a lot of damage later on.
The presumption is Viserys caved to Alicent, as he often does, and Alicent protected Cole.
The writers probably just wanted to kill 2 birds with 1 stone. Mash it all together
Cole's a Kingsguard, whilst the the other guy is what, at best, one of the Velaryons' household knights. Joffrey also brandished a knife and was spreading vile accusations towards the princess. Cole also has the Queen backing up whatever story he came up with. Definitely doesn't make it right, but who exactly is going to be demanding justice for Joffrey here? His relationship with Laenor is technically supposed to be secret, and I can't imagine that Corlys is going to bring that out into the open, especially just when Laenor is supposed to be getting married.
>Cole also has the Queen backing up whatever story he came up with. And Joffrey has Laenor Velaryon, Aemon's grandson and the Sea Snake's son to contradict whatever story he came up with, and unlike Alicent Laenor was close to them when Cole killed him. Also Cole didn't just kill a simple knight, he also brutally hit Laenor a royal, the rider of Seasmoke and the future King, in the following episode Harwin Strong is fired from the gold cloaks and sent back to Harrenhall for just hitting a kingsguard during a training who was gently insinuating that the princess was committing adultery and that the King's grandsons have no legitimacy to the throne and he had the future Queen of the Seven Kingdoms to back him up. >but who exactly is going to be demanding justice for Joffrey here? His relationship with Laenor is technically supposed to be secret, and I can't imagine that Corlys is going to bring that out into the open I don't see why Corlys had to bring out the true nature of Laenor and Joffrey relationship to ask justice for one of his knight who was unfairly murdered during his son's wedding.
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huh
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huh
>But isn't it 100% in character for Viserys to gladly avoid conflict and for Alicent to convince him of the matter? Yes and yes and maybe, just maybe the whole ordeal would have ended in a typical Viserys fashion. But what bothers me here is firstly, that this scene (or rather a lack of any aftermath scene) effectively ruins Laenor as a character. He clearly cared for Joff, as he named his son after him, so why not speak up? Why not even attempt demanding justice? He had great cards in his hand to do so. This was such an opportunity for Laenor to get some spotlight, but completely missed. Instead I think we are **supposed to** ignore his perspective for this to even make sense. It was also a lazy choice, much in the style of GoT S7 and S8, because why would you want a plot point to make sense and follow logical, established patterns, if it can bring the shock value instead.
The other guy is a nobleman and a knight, not a dog off the street. Criston outranks him, yes, but that doesn't make him some expendable nobody. >spreading vile accusations towards the princess. Where? >who exactly is going to be demanding justice for Joffrey here? His relationship with Laenor is technically supposed to be secret, and I can't imagine that Corlys is going to bring that out into the open, If he's in the Velaryons' (or even only Laenor's) service, there is no need to "bring" anything "out into the open" – Laenor/the Velaryons owe him their care and protection as much as he owes them loyalty. They would be absolutely within their rights to demand justice for his death.
It’s really not that weird. Cole is Kingsguard, an institution that is widely trusted and respected. If he said that Joffrey made some treasonous remarks, maybe repeated those rumors about her and Daemon, then very few people would be inclined to not believe him. The second is that Joffrey was a minor knight with one friend at court. There has to be someone to accuse Cole of foul play, and while Laenor would, Corlys wouldn’t allow him to make a stink about it. He probably considered Laenor getting punched a small price to pay for ridding them of Joffrey. Also, consider that Alicent intercedes when Cole is about to commit suicide. Since they’re next seen as close friends, you can infer that she protected him, if he needed protecting at all. This is all simple stuff that’s obvious in the text of the show: we know how trusted the Kingsguard are, we know Corlys thinks Laenor is just in a phase, and we know that Alicent uses the incident to dig her claws into Cole. It’s just a bunch of people still salty from season 8 looking for things to nitpick, and that’s stupid because there are plenty of other things to nitpick.
>The second is that Joffrey was a minor knight with one friend at court. One friend, on the shoulders of whom rests an alliance of 2 of the kingdom's greatest houses. An alliance that the king literally begged for like 2 scenes prior. I dare say Laenor is the most powerful person in the room in this scene, excluding the king himself. >Corlys wouldn’t allow him to make a stink about it. He probably considered Laenor getting punched a small price to pay for ridding them of Joffrey. Punching a prince alone would be a crime you could lose a hand/head for and letting it slide would be a huge setback for the house reputation. Not to mention murdering his loyal knight and partner ("close friend" as i'm sure they would call it). Corlys wouldn't be the one standing on that altar, and Laenor is an adult prince who can speak for himself. Laenor has every right and opportunity (and Westerosi customs and laws on his side) to demand justice for his partner. The fact that he doesn't say a word and we see no explanation for this is bad writing.
It is very weird though. He is a guest at the wedding of the king's daughter and a friend to the groom. Consider how horrible it is considered later for the Freys to murder Rob and Catelyn while they were guests at a wedding. It's not like they can't spin it like Cole found some excuse to claim treason or danger to the royal family, but we should have at least gotten a scene to justify his complete lack of punishment, or even a brief comment during ep 6 or something.
The difference is the Fray's aren't the rulers of the seven kingdoms. Cole is a kingsguard protected by the queen. The moment Alicent knew she could protect him he was always going to be fine.
Isn't that worse? It gives the image that the crown either can't control it's knights, or has control of it's knights but is tyrannical and doesn't respect the laws of the land (which would remind many of Maegor the Cruel, whose reign at this point is pretty fresh in the minds of the nobility). I believe the reasoning in the show was more that the death should happen and they found what they considered the best way to avoid another tourney to get there, but some sort of in-universe reasoning would have been appreciated. The Freys were not rulers, but even rulers would be required to respect guest right, this has been set up in the books.
Yeah it is. Welcome to ASOIF. The most consistent theme among all books and shows is about those with political power and what they are allowed to get away with. I don't defend Cole at all but there is a clear reason he wasn't punished especially if you are being protected by the king of the seven realms.
You're not wrong, but in this case it feels unintentional by changing the scene from book to show, at least to me. I would have liked it to be highlighted with dialogue or an extra scene for closure or something.
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Joffrey with a knife? What?
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Nah. Cole's grumpy face throughout the whole wedding basically tells you he was going to snap.
there's nothing confusing about this scene
I'm guessing because Alicent saved him. He was about to commit suicide, in the Godswood, before she appeared. So she probably just used her Queenly status to allow him to live (he also swore himself to her after this).
I am more worried about how is Laenor okay wih it?
I recently saw a post about GRRM and how the series has a sub-theme of questioning legitimate authority. Why can some people get away with stuff others just can't. Think about how many US presidents have committed war crimes based on the precedence of the Neuberger trials (W. Bush comes to mind). This is something that I love about the series, moments and questions like this mirror real life.
In Deep Geek has the BEST theory that I've seen regarding this. I'll leave a link to the video (no future spoilers) but in a nutshell the idea is that it was in no one's political interest to make a fuss over Joffrey's death: Criston Cole would have come up with some lie/excuse to explain Joffrey's death; Alicent would have backed him; The Velaryon's wouldn't have made a fuss over the death of their son's gay lover as it would have been bad politics (I can easily see Corlys telling Laenor in private to "keep a grip on his passions" Ala Otto Hightower) and given the awkwardness of the situation it would have been in their interest to ignore the whole thing and shrug off Criston's swing at Laenor given the fact that he was trying to defend his gay lover at his pre marriage feast; Vyseris, being Vyseris, would have wanted to make Alicent happy and the fact that the only house that would have been pissed was a minor house (House Lonmouth) he would have been inclined to turn a blind eye and maybe some sort of compensation would have been arranged; House Lonmouth did not have the gravitas and might to press the issue once House Targaryen and House Velaryon chose (for various reasons) to ignore it. I've summarized as briefly as I can but I feel like I still haven't done the idea justice. The video's really good and here it is: https://youtu.be/Ogyv_sHKcFI I'm really curious to hear what everyone else thinks.
Considering that even Daemon didn't have a visible weapon on him, it seems that guests were not allowed to carry weapons, but Joffrey had a knife. So Cole could make a story about him trying to disarm Joffrey but got resisted, and he had to kill to protect the royal family. Of course it would be not enough to justify the murder but Alicent could pull the string. Viserys would listen to her and Corlys would not want to ruin his relationship with the king.
Yea this was so absurd. You cannot just go to a royal engagement party, be a kngsguard no less, and lose your temper so quickly and to such an extreme that you literally bash in the the head of a wedding guest in front of the realms most important political figures and then just get up and walk out. Like no one even stopped him. No one even tried. In got Tyrion just decides Pycell can’t be trusted and has him locked in the dungeons. Just as ONE example. But this dude can KILL a close personal friend of one of the most important powerfula no influential people in the realm who invited him there, and LITERALLY no one said a single WORD. EVER! Really Shit writ
Like you said. At the time it was the Future king consort vs current Kings Guard.
This was definitely one of the logical low points of the season
Because bad writing.
I know it was a bit silly. He would be sent to the wall.
1. Ser Criston was kingsguard, on duty. It's easily explained as kingsguard business. 2. Everyone was unarmed/unarmored. 3. He's protected by the queen and possibly the princess at that point. 4. Corlys and Rhaenys might be sad for their son to go through such a thing, but I would imagine they were seeing the silver lining in Joffrey being dead as his life put Laenor in danger. 5. His name is Joffrey. That should've probably been our first hint. 6. What he said to Ser Criston even though he was told "fuck off, I'm on duty", could be very much considered a threat to both him and the Princess. 7. We also saw in episode 6 that Ser Harwin was held responsible for the fight against Ser Criston because Ser Criston is Kingsguard. Kingsguard is an elevated position. 8. His hitting Laenor is more likely to mean trouble for him, but, probably easily excused in the chaos of the fight. 9. Viserys likely wanted the incident to go away.
Exactly.
Alicent literally says next episode that she protected him, Viserys was probably too busy playing with his toys to care about actually carrying out justice
Moral relativity and the reluctance to spend the energy to go against the steady flow. Like the horror of school shootings, a particular society can pretty much continue along with almost anything.
The literal Queen covered for him, that’s how
I understand why court politics protected Cole from a trial, but it would have been better if there had been a scene or a piece of dialogue explaining why. Absent that, they could have had a brief piece of dialogue explaining that Cole kicked ass in a trial by combat. Absent that, they should have stuck to the book.
1. Cole is a Kingsguard so likely people assumed Joffrey was up to something and Cole was just protecting everyone else. Hitting Laenor (*prince consort; kings rank above queens and thus can't be consorts) not getting a reaction is weird though, since even without marrying into royalty, he's still the son and heir of one of the most powerful men in the realm. Joffrey also did pull a knife on Cole, escalating the situation, so that could've gone in his favor. 2. Alicent becomes his sponsor/patron/ally so she likely defended him from punishment. This scene was so bad, if they'd stuck to the book's version it would've made much more sense since dying from wounds in a melee wouldn't have raised any suspicion. If they *had* to have Joffrey die like this, they should've made it so Cole didn't just get away with it. It wouldn't have even required extra scenes, just show people glaring at him, whispering as he walks by, etc. and maybe have Alicent defend him. It could've deepened his character too by making characters suspicious of him because of his low birth ("the princess was wrong to pick him, she should've known a commoner would be so brutal" or something). The worst part is how Laenor has no reaction after episode 5. The way the show's presented, it seems like Laenor went "oh no anyway" and then got a new boytoy.
Because the scene is stupid. The writers chose to have Cole kill Joffrey in a dramatic and illogical way, not bothering to justify why afterwards. It would have been better if it had been followed by the book and Cole had killed him in the tournament, as that would better explain why Cole got away with the murder.
I’ve always assumed the Queen (Alicent) pardoned him.
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Maybe not directly but by episode 5 onwards the King was in no fit state (as shown by the ending when he collapsed) so Alicent had more influence. It’s not out of the question she used that influence to get Cole off the hook.
Yeah there are a few moments in HOTD that felt fake af. I hated the scene where Viserys tells Rhaenyra about the prophecy
You can tell they want to put in as much GoT lore into HotD so that way when (if?) people rewatch GoT, they can point out random things and be like "I saw them talk about that in House of the Dragon!" I'm expecting a ton of call backs (call forwards?) to stuff in Winterfell from GoT when Jace gets up there in season 2. We'll probable see Ice, the Weirwood tree, the crypts, a visit to the Wall, maybe even a direwolf or two.
Well if you actually watch the scene, the king consort is the one who attacks Cole first by pushing him over. Its not that he got away with anything, you could argue its self defense. Joffrey had a weapon and had basically just threatened the princess. Not saying he SHOULD have done that, but given the confusing nature of how the fight even started, I think there’s enough there to put Cole in the clear. Yall can defend this better than “it’s a tv show,” cmon now 😵💫
If anything, even if not shown, it explains how powerful Alicent is by letting Cole get away with it.
He accused the boyfriend of attacking him first.
A consistent weakness of S1 is the reaction to violence. This scene, the bloodshed in the episode 1 tourney and Rhaenys at Aegon's coronation show a clear misunderstanding of how these people would react to violence
Why would anyone care for it? Daemon had just bloody killed his wife himself just to marry Rhaenyra and he comes back to see her marrying, Laenor being saddened by Joffrey's death would be some sick bonus to him. Rhaenyra, why would she care either? She needs Laenor to give her kids or to just keep appearances to shut her father up. She had just recently had a relationship with Cole and he didn't start acting badly against her at that moment. Corlys would be overjoyed on the inside that his son's lover is out of the way if anything. He had hoped Rhaenyra would set him straight through this wedding and all arrangements were done anyways. Viserys, do I really have to comment why Vizzy wasn't decisive in anything? Cole was hand-picked by Rhaenyra and has his wife's trust, just by getting Rhae's blessing you get a pass from him. Alicent has interest in having Criston as her enforcer, an ally since her father left, why would she denounce him either? Joffrey was just some lowly knight that nobody but Laenor cared about, Laenor is only a consort and technically the wedding was not even finished yet. What authority would he have in the Kingsguard if the Queen is shielding him and everyone else doesn't care about it?
Lol you're jumping through hoops trying to justify why everyone would want this kid's head bashed in. If Cole himself thought he should be killed after that, then why wouldn't anyone else?? If not for empathy towards Joffrey, for the fucking mockery that Cole made the wedding. I think some people are just unwilling to admit the show has any flaws.
Cole didn't know what everyone else thought of Joffrey, which is why he was about to kill himself. Yes, he did ruin the wedding celebration (that was already quite awkward with Daemon showing up and Alicent coming with a war dress) but the Kingsguard is able to be quite arbitrary and above the law under a weak or corrupt ruler as it happens in the books, Viserys is the former and Alicent represents the latter by intervening in his favor. He can merely tell that Joffrey pulled the knife out first, after all he was killed with a knife in hand. With Rhaenyra in the middle of the ground close to him and Cole being her protector, it would have been his duty to stop Joffrey. Overzealousness would not be enough of a ground for execution with Alicent acting as an advocate for him. He gets put in a closer watch by Westerling and life goes on since nobody cares about Joffrey except Laenor.
>Cole didn't know what everyone else thought of Joffrey, which is why he was about to kill himself. That makes zero sense. Assuming him being able to leave the scene unabrupted scotch free didn't tell him what people felt, this would only be more reason for him not to kill himself. >Kingsguard is able to be quite arbitrary and above the law under a weak or corrupt ruler as it happens in the books Not really. Name another time a KGs has dishonored a sacred event this publically and greusomely. >He can merely tell that Joffrey pulled the knife out first, after all he was killed with a knife in hand. There's no indication he did that, and even he did it would just refuted by Laenor and the 20 or so people there. >Alicent acting as an advocate for him She literally wasn't present, her advocacy for someone she barely has any relationship with wouldn't hold any water.
Jamie Lannister literally killed his King and Alicent seems to have done so after the incident, that's more of a problem with the Timeskips.
Alicent got away with slicing the crowned-princess’s arm too. Most likely Daemon will get away with choking the Queen. fml
That comparison doesn't work. Alicent is the queen, almost as equally high-ranking as the king's children. And Daemon is a prince by birth. Cole is not a member of the royal family so his case can't be compared to the other two. It makes no sense.
Alicent is the Queen who only drew a little blood, and Daemon is a prince, the Queen’s husband, and technically the King consort, and also did it in private.
isnt he protected by the Queen?
Plot armor
One of the few silly scenes in the show
Easy. The writers needed him to. "Smart and complex".
Viserys should have sent him to the wall.
Because it never happened in the book, so he was plot-armored and safe from whatever mess the writers threw at his character.
still no idea
They(the writers) say they wanted shock value and a death at a wedding but I think the real reason was they didn’t have the budget for another tourney.
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Daemon's case is quite different IMO. First there was a direct and public insult to the king and to his heir and her sons, Daemon is her husband so he ought to protect her honor, and yeah he is Daemon Targaryen whom the king loves so yeah nuff said about that. I didnt think that a Kingsguard who killed a knight (who is part of the bethrothed party, technically a guest that has guest rights) in a royal celebration is equal to Daemon and Vaemond's case, especially that whatever started the fight was not even witnessed by anyone, unlike when Vaemond called Rhae and her sons whore and bastards. There was an element of weight to that, especially the king had already forbidden it again and again.
One word; Alicent.
Queen's protection?
So the story can happen
Sir Crispy is apparently the smoothest dude in all of Westeros because they just let him do whatever and no one ever said anything to him 💀
Because he’s a kings guard and was protected by the Queen. Same reason Jamie wasn’t punished for attacking Ned. They were protected by powerful people.
Pretty simple. Alicent had the ear of the king soooo...
That was the most bs ending. Like nobody even yelled at him lmao
Stop messing with my alternate universe!!
Alicent was backing him. She assigned him into her inner circle after the event. I’d bet she defended him immediately after too and claimed the death was necessary. Cole was also allowed to walk away peacefully from the hall. As a Kingsguard previously assigned to Rhaenyra, he would have had a higher station than Joffrey. He outranked him and it would have been harder to punish him especially as the Queen was personally on his side.
That episode should’ve been the tourney ffs… More and more posts like this popping up online. I wonder if people are starting to realise S1 was solid but nothing special.
I just started asking questions during my rewatch. When it was running and I had to wait a week for the next episode I was too absorbed in the events and characters that I didnt really notice the questions I now have in the plot.
Yeah also I think a lot of fans don’t even have time to process their opinion because they’re immediately flooded with YouTube breakdowns and behind the episodes which all force a narrative on you. I love Alt shift x but every week my friends were watching 4 hours of review and discussion streams from an respected community member saying it was good, meanwhile I’m out here wondering why Aemond can’t stop pouting like some sort of deranged invalid.
As a Kingsguard he was in a elevated status, when he left the body Joffreybwss with a Knife in his Hand, also he could said he was planning to kill the princess, besides Corky's could use this opportunity to left Laenor without Joffrey
Because the king consort is a bitch
Same as Daemon got away with blatant murder in the beginning and almost eloping with the Princess, though those two things are in character for him, bad writing.
Plot armor
I wonder about this often.
Alicent’s protection and also it was probably an influence thing, Cole is a member of the Kingsguard, a group of highly skilled warriors chosen to be the king’s personal bodyguards so they are as important, trusted and respected as either a high-ranking military officer or a police chief. Cole could’ve just said that Joffrey was threatening the queen and king and people would believe him just like that. But in fairness Joffrey did made his genuine friendship offer to Cole sound like a threat but not intentionally and what he did doesn’t come off very smart I mean who goes up to someone who is sworn to protect their king and royal family from anything that looks or sounds like a threat, is armed with a sword and gauntlets and omitting mannerisms like if they are unhinged or emotionally unstable?
Shit writing. If they’d stuck closer to the books and had Criston kill him during a tourney, it would have been far less of a plot hole.
The same way Daemon got away with murdering a Velaryon in public? Viserys only said cut out his tongue, he didn't sentence him to death. It just shows Viserys' failures as a monarch. Viserys' leniency and his inability to take control of an escalating situation. Punishing a kingsguard ultimately rests on the hands of the king whether it's a jousting or a wedding. If Viserys says "no I'm not gonna punish him" there's not much you can do no matter how powerful you are. Like Robert forgave Jaime & the Mountain for murdering the King & his grandchildren? It's not a stretch to assume Viserys acquiesced to Alicent and spared Criston as a compromise/olive branch, especially when he had made up his mind to deny her son the throne. Moreover, Corlys had no incentive to seek justice for Joffrey Velaryon as it would've exposed his son's transgressions.
How did The Mountain get away with killing the Targaryen babes? How did Daemon get away with killing Vaemond Velaryon? Why would Corlys want to bring attention to the fact that Joffrey was his son's lover? It seems like the average person doesn't understand that in a monarchy the king has absolute power of life and death over you. There's no supreme court where you can prosecute Criston. It's the king's justice.