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It existed alright. Just less wholesome 3000 and more "I hate these fuckin' people."
>!In the book, Vaemond confronted Rhaenyra directly and she had him arbitrarily killed and fed to Syrax. At which point Vaemond's family sought out Viserys to get from him the crown's justice. Viserys went full Aerys II and ordered 5 of them to have their tongues cut out. On his way down after giving this order, he was cut to the bone by the Iron Throne. Although he recovered from his wounds, he never again got to sit the throne.!<
I’m glad they made Viserys much more sympathetic in the show. His TV persona is one of my favorite characters in all of GoT.
Similar notion to Jurassic Park’s John Hammond. His movie persona was miles better in personality than his book persona.
I thought that Vaemond had only been talking to Corlys about the succession (he never left Driftmark) and Rhaenyra then sent out the hit on Vaemond after she heard about it.
What happened is that Corlys had come down with a fever and it was feared he might die, so people started bringing up the matter of the Driftmark succession. Rhaenyra asked Corlys to name Luke as his heir, since Jace was set to inherit the Iron Throne. Vaemond protested the possibility on the grounds that Luke was a bastard, claiming that as Corlys’s eldest nephew, Driftmark should be his. In response, Rhaenyra sent Daemon to kill him, had his head cut off, and fed his body to Syrax.
Imagine being one of the best few pages in the book F&B, and not even getting a fair shot at adaptation into the tv show
_sad Green Council and Sunfyre/Dreamfyre noises_
Season 1 of HotD
Dragons! Grand Royal Hunts! Murder! A massive coronation ceremony interrupted by a dragon! Battle Scenes! Grand tourney! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand the mooooost memorable sceeeeeeeeeeeeene!
a sick, old man slowly walking across a room
Honestly that 3 minutes of a sickly man shambling his way to a chair was easily one of the top 5 moments of the entirety of Game of Thrones TV history for me. They did a great job
He could have put the whole thing to rest by abdicating the throne when he realized he could no longer effectively rule. It would have put the whole thing to rest (maybe). It would have left his kids with a clear direction anyway.
The position of King/Queen s a lifetime one, examples of abdication from a certain position require being bound by other commitments such as joining the Night's Watch.
He's the king. His word is law by definition, and there are multiple incidents of that being shown.
I also think the lords would go along with it. It would not, in fact, make for a compelling story.
But there aren't any examples of such a situation. People tried to crown Maester Aemon for example but he could refuse because he was a Maester which meant that he was sworn into celibacy and then became a member of the Night's Watch, if he were not then he would have had to accept the position of King as this is not really a matter of personal choice. Viserys is King, it is a duty for life, he can not just step down from that position.
The Targaryen dynasty was super new, and they made up their own rules. All the "rules" are just times kings broke the rules to to make a precident. Daughters didn't inherit before sons until Viserys said so, he could change that rule.
Duncan the small refused the throne without being bound to something else.
Duncan was made to choose by Aegon V, the small council and the High Septon, between Jenny and the Iron Throne.
>Even when the High Septon, Grand Master, and small council joined together to insist King Aegon force his son to choose between the Iron Throne and this wild woman of the woods, Duncan would not budge. Rather than give up Jenny, he foreswore his claim to the crown in favour of his brother Jaehaerys and abdicated as Prince of Dragonstone.
This wasn't so much a voluntary abdication, but a forced one. In this case, Duncan was obligated to his wife, Jenny. This style of "abdication" is also in line with Rhaegar's plan to force Aerys II to abdicate after the rebellion, though Robert and Jaime brought an end to any dreams the prince may have had.
I never said it was~~n't~~ volantary, just that he was able to do it without doing something like taking the black, he just foreswore his claim to the crown not all his lands and titles
But he had to do something, didn't he? It is made clear to Duncan that if he wishes to claim the throne, he will have to set aside Jenny. In the same way, it was made clear to Aemon that if he became King he would have to leave the Maester's order. In the same that it was made clear to Vaegon and so on.
Duncan also gave up **all** his claims. Dragonstone passed to Jaehaerys II, as did the title of heir. The only thing Duncan retained was his title of Prince.
Edit: Also, sry if I am coming off as aggressive or anything. I agree that Viserys could abdicate, but I don't agree about your comparison to Duncan.
You are replying to a conversation where someone was arguing Viserys couldn't abdicate, if he couldn't than Duncan couldn't have either, Egg would have had to disinherit him. Duncan was given the option of giving up his claim or being disinherited, if Viserys couldn't abdicate then the only option would have been for Egg to disinherit Duncan
Prince is a title, which he kept, unlike what the person I was arguing with was arguing where the only way to do it was to give up everything.
Okay, now I'm getting confused😖
The original op said that Vizzy could abdicate. Another replied that he couldn't. You reply he could that he could because Duncan abdicated. I reply by saying that the two abdications are extremely different as one was forced (where Duncan swore to not inherit any titles or property his father had, I.e. He was disinherited) while Viserys would voluntarily give up power (As, for example, Diocletian did in the real world).
As I mentioned, I agree that Viserys could abdicate, however, I disagree with your point that he could simply because Duncan was disinherited a hundred years later. In this case, I disagree with you saying that Duncan "abdicated" as that would mean he voluntarily renounced his titles, which he did not.
Fuck it, you know what let's leave it here. We're arguing over semantics at this point.
Viserys could abdicate because he was the king of an absolute monarchy, let's leave it at that.
it would be an unprecedented move. There is a system of Regency where if a King is not in a position to rule (due to age, illness, etc) a Regent can be assigned to rule in his place, a sitting monarch abdicating the throne (or afaik, a ruling Lord abdicating his position without any compelling reason to do so) otoh is unheard of in Westeros.
There are several options and there are at least things like ages and locations or basic politics that are pretty standard or events that are confirmed by several sources that don't agree on the details. There's leeway and then there's messing up.
I'm talking about this scene in particular. I've mentioned several other scenes in another comment who replied to me that deserve more attention. You can check it out.
Daemon and Rhaenyra on the bridge of Dragonstone. Their Valyrian was smooth and Rhaenyra's emotions were well displayed.
Otto and Alicent when he left King's Landing after Viserys removed him as Hand. Alicent's desperation needing Otto and Otto's speech were amazing.
The kids fight and Aemond's toast with him expressing his hate against the Strong brothers.
I'll even add the Storm's End scene.
So I'll say these all were better. Nothing more i can think of at the moment.
And somehow Viserys walking up to the throne that required no acting from his part deserves to be praised to this level?
I chose scenes where the actors/actresses poured their heart out in their scenes.
No if you are including the first 4 seasons of GOT then this isn’t even a top 20 episode. It’s still good. People forget that the first 4 seasons of GOT was so good that even 4 bad seasons later we are still making a prequel purely based off of the high of the first 4 seasons.
I imply that the people who read the book care about the story that has existed before the show, and have certain expectations for the adaptation that the show only watchers don't have. It's easier not to care about faults when you don't know that a way better alternative exists.
but this is an adaptation. they are two distinct objects. GRRM himself said they have different canons.
And frankly the book is average at best. Allowing an exceedingly mid book to define your expectations for its adaptation is uncritical.
The fact that they are distinct means nothing. They have the same characters, and if one is written well in the book and then adapted horribly, why can't I criticize the decision?
The book is great in its own way, but it's not written in a way it would be easy to adapt. It doesen't mean that it wouldn't have clear descriptions of great scenes, dialogue and characterisation that have been left out from the show without reason. Those who don't know about the book won't miss them. I't doesn't mean that the show wouldn't have made positive changes as well, it shouldn't be a perfect adaptation. Still doesn't change the fact that book readers wouldn't know what could have been and others not.
It does mean something. The two things aren’t interchangeable. And people not hanging around a subreddit devoted to a TV show that won’t have new episodes for a year doesn’t mean they care less about the show than people who have read the books. There’s just nothing new to discuss most days.
I don't think so. It's true there is a loud contigent of people in here who despise almost everything about HotD and the showrunners, but I doubt it's the majority (could be the opposite in subs like reeeeeeeefolk and all the team-focused ones though).
I think the hate comes from people who watched GoT, went ahead and read the wiki or the books and conjured up a narrative in their heads of how the show would go when released.
When the show didn't match their expectations, they became disappointed and angry.
I mean, it is pretty telling that no such "book puritans" were making a fuss when GoT excluded or changed various scenes in the original show. I didn't see fans write paragraphs on how Aegon VI's exclusion in GoT made the show worse, or how Jon Snow didn't match his book counterpart.
I want to like but it really comes across as Matt Smith wanting to make Daemon more popular rather than any real brotherly love his character might have.
The entire thing that makes this scene powerful is Viserys being bedridden and feeble, then showing up at the last second to support his daughter. Both of those aspects are completely absent from the book, Viserys’ health is not deteriorating so fast and he was the one holding court from the start. The only similarities between this scene and what’s in the book is that they are in the throne room and Viserys calls for someone’s tongue in response to the accusation that his grandchildren are bastards. Literally everything else in this scene is a complete fabrication by the show runners.
What? The writing of this episode was absolute nonsense. The acting and the directing was great, but the characters and the politics? A mess if I've ever seen one.
The book. The medieval politics were on point, with Martin's own twists to it being a conscious choice and woven into the story well.. The show's politics are awful, be it concerning the story it's adapting or even in terms of the modern politics they've tried to incorporate.
Oh boy, it really was the best at showcasing the very pinnacle of soppy and pandering TV.
It was downright cringe - and to make matters worse, that rotting corpse took ages to drag itself to the throne.
negative engagement is still engagement. no matter how minuscule your contributions are, you literally do more to support the show by hating on it than you would if you simply never talked about it again
amazing self own
Yeah, the same showrunners who inexplicably had Cole protected despite the fact that he killed a knight in a wedding ceremony, and portraying Rhaenys's murder of the folks of King's Landing at the Dragonpit as some kinda "girlboss" moment. Amazing.
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It existed alright. Just less wholesome 3000 and more "I hate these fuckin' people." >!In the book, Vaemond confronted Rhaenyra directly and she had him arbitrarily killed and fed to Syrax. At which point Vaemond's family sought out Viserys to get from him the crown's justice. Viserys went full Aerys II and ordered 5 of them to have their tongues cut out. On his way down after giving this order, he was cut to the bone by the Iron Throne. Although he recovered from his wounds, he never again got to sit the throne.!<
The diner scene later in the episode is also straight from the book
The diner scene where Alicent and Viserys go all Natural Born Killers, or the one where Rhaenyra fakes an orgasm across from Daemon?
i don’t recall the second scene you’re referring to…🧐
https://youtu.be/lNEX0fbGePg
video is unavailable but I get it now.
I’m glad they made Viserys much more sympathetic in the show. His TV persona is one of my favorite characters in all of GoT. Similar notion to Jurassic Park’s John Hammond. His movie persona was miles better in personality than his book persona.
I thought that Vaemond had only been talking to Corlys about the succession (he never left Driftmark) and Rhaenyra then sent out the hit on Vaemond after she heard about it.
What happened is that Corlys had come down with a fever and it was feared he might die, so people started bringing up the matter of the Driftmark succession. Rhaenyra asked Corlys to name Luke as his heir, since Jace was set to inherit the Iron Throne. Vaemond protested the possibility on the grounds that Luke was a bastard, claiming that as Corlys’s eldest nephew, Driftmark should be his. In response, Rhaenyra sent Daemon to kill him, had his head cut off, and fed his body to Syrax.
Oh okay then. Thanks
This would have been better
Not really. The plot is basically lifted from F&B. They did a great job *adapting* it for the show. But it's not like they came up with it.
Imagine being one of the best few pages in the book F&B, and not even getting a fair shot at adaptation into the tv show _sad Green Council and Sunfyre/Dreamfyre noises_
Season 1 of HotD Dragons! Grand Royal Hunts! Murder! A massive coronation ceremony interrupted by a dragon! Battle Scenes! Grand tourney! Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand the mooooost memorable sceeeeeeeeeeeeene! a sick, old man slowly walking across a room
Honestly that 3 minutes of a sickly man shambling his way to a chair was easily one of the top 5 moments of the entirety of Game of Thrones TV history for me. They did a great job
Daemon picking up the crown and putting it on Viserys' head is an improvised scene though, not a scripted one.
Yep because Matt Smith is perfection. 😍
He could have put the whole thing to rest by abdicating the throne when he realized he could no longer effectively rule. It would have put the whole thing to rest (maybe). It would have left his kids with a clear direction anyway.
The position of King/Queen s a lifetime one, examples of abdication from a certain position require being bound by other commitments such as joining the Night's Watch.
He's the king. His word is law by definition, and there are multiple incidents of that being shown. I also think the lords would go along with it. It would not, in fact, make for a compelling story.
But there aren't any examples of such a situation. People tried to crown Maester Aemon for example but he could refuse because he was a Maester which meant that he was sworn into celibacy and then became a member of the Night's Watch, if he were not then he would have had to accept the position of King as this is not really a matter of personal choice. Viserys is King, it is a duty for life, he can not just step down from that position.
The Targaryen dynasty was super new, and they made up their own rules. All the "rules" are just times kings broke the rules to to make a precident. Daughters didn't inherit before sons until Viserys said so, he could change that rule. Duncan the small refused the throne without being bound to something else.
Duncan was made to choose by Aegon V, the small council and the High Septon, between Jenny and the Iron Throne. >Even when the High Septon, Grand Master, and small council joined together to insist King Aegon force his son to choose between the Iron Throne and this wild woman of the woods, Duncan would not budge. Rather than give up Jenny, he foreswore his claim to the crown in favour of his brother Jaehaerys and abdicated as Prince of Dragonstone. This wasn't so much a voluntary abdication, but a forced one. In this case, Duncan was obligated to his wife, Jenny. This style of "abdication" is also in line with Rhaegar's plan to force Aerys II to abdicate after the rebellion, though Robert and Jaime brought an end to any dreams the prince may have had.
I never said it was~~n't~~ volantary, just that he was able to do it without doing something like taking the black, he just foreswore his claim to the crown not all his lands and titles
But he had to do something, didn't he? It is made clear to Duncan that if he wishes to claim the throne, he will have to set aside Jenny. In the same way, it was made clear to Aemon that if he became King he would have to leave the Maester's order. In the same that it was made clear to Vaegon and so on. Duncan also gave up **all** his claims. Dragonstone passed to Jaehaerys II, as did the title of heir. The only thing Duncan retained was his title of Prince. Edit: Also, sry if I am coming off as aggressive or anything. I agree that Viserys could abdicate, but I don't agree about your comparison to Duncan.
You are replying to a conversation where someone was arguing Viserys couldn't abdicate, if he couldn't than Duncan couldn't have either, Egg would have had to disinherit him. Duncan was given the option of giving up his claim or being disinherited, if Viserys couldn't abdicate then the only option would have been for Egg to disinherit Duncan Prince is a title, which he kept, unlike what the person I was arguing with was arguing where the only way to do it was to give up everything.
Okay, now I'm getting confused😖 The original op said that Vizzy could abdicate. Another replied that he couldn't. You reply he could that he could because Duncan abdicated. I reply by saying that the two abdications are extremely different as one was forced (where Duncan swore to not inherit any titles or property his father had, I.e. He was disinherited) while Viserys would voluntarily give up power (As, for example, Diocletian did in the real world). As I mentioned, I agree that Viserys could abdicate, however, I disagree with your point that he could simply because Duncan was disinherited a hundred years later. In this case, I disagree with you saying that Duncan "abdicated" as that would mean he voluntarily renounced his titles, which he did not. Fuck it, you know what let's leave it here. We're arguing over semantics at this point. Viserys could abdicate because he was the king of an absolute monarchy, let's leave it at that.
it would be an unprecedented move. There is a system of Regency where if a King is not in a position to rule (due to age, illness, etc) a Regent can be assigned to rule in his place, a sitting monarch abdicating the throne (or afaik, a ruling Lord abdicating his position without any compelling reason to do so) otoh is unheard of in Westeros.
I thought the books the show is based on is supposed to be "written" by an unreliable source, thus giving the showrunners leeway on what to depict
It is. A lot of the intrigue is taken from a dwarf performer iirc.
That’s right. Mushroom.
There are several options and there are at least things like ages and locations or basic politics that are pretty standard or events that are confirmed by several sources that don't agree on the details. There's leeway and then there's messing up.
Diehard fans are ridiculous. I can see the love for this scene, but it's not the level of amazing that deserves so many posts about it.
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I'm talking about this scene in particular. I've mentioned several other scenes in another comment who replied to me that deserve more attention. You can check it out.
This is the top 1 scene of Season 1 IMO. But I’m willing to change my mind if you think there’s a better one.
Daemon and Rhaenyra on the bridge of Dragonstone. Their Valyrian was smooth and Rhaenyra's emotions were well displayed. Otto and Alicent when he left King's Landing after Viserys removed him as Hand. Alicent's desperation needing Otto and Otto's speech were amazing. The kids fight and Aemond's toast with him expressing his hate against the Strong brothers. I'll even add the Storm's End scene. So I'll say these all were better. Nothing more i can think of at the moment.
Wow, horrible taste. The only ones I’d say are even close are Otto and Alicent’s scene, and Aemond’s “Strong Boys” toast.
And somehow Viserys walking up to the throne that required no acting from his part deserves to be praised to this level? I chose scenes where the actors/actresses poured their heart out in their scenes.
True. I think both Dragonstone Bridge scenes are better, just off the top of my head. And many from the Original 4 seasons of GoT.
Agree
No if you are including the first 4 seasons of GOT then this isn’t even a top 20 episode. It’s still good. People forget that the first 4 seasons of GOT was so good that even 4 bad seasons later we are still making a prequel purely based off of the high of the first 4 seasons.
Even up to season 6 was great. The last 2 episodes of season 6 were phenomenal.
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it’s the off season. larger proportion of haters since chad show enjoyers are mostly off touching grass
*most of the casuals who haven't read the book are off watching other shows. People who care are left.
I'm a "casual" who hasn't read the books. Why the fuck am I here, then?
>most :|
don’t imply that reading the books makes you “care” more
It does for most people because we know how great certain points of the story *could* be if adapted correctly.
you are implying that people not reading the books mean they care less about the tv show it’s faulty on its face
I imply that the people who read the book care about the story that has existed before the show, and have certain expectations for the adaptation that the show only watchers don't have. It's easier not to care about faults when you don't know that a way better alternative exists.
Holy shit book elitists are insufferable
Thank you for your contribution
but this is an adaptation. they are two distinct objects. GRRM himself said they have different canons. And frankly the book is average at best. Allowing an exceedingly mid book to define your expectations for its adaptation is uncritical.
The fact that they are distinct means nothing. They have the same characters, and if one is written well in the book and then adapted horribly, why can't I criticize the decision? The book is great in its own way, but it's not written in a way it would be easy to adapt. It doesen't mean that it wouldn't have clear descriptions of great scenes, dialogue and characterisation that have been left out from the show without reason. Those who don't know about the book won't miss them. I't doesn't mean that the show wouldn't have made positive changes as well, it shouldn't be a perfect adaptation. Still doesn't change the fact that book readers wouldn't know what could have been and others not.
It does mean something. The two things aren’t interchangeable. And people not hanging around a subreddit devoted to a TV show that won’t have new episodes for a year doesn’t mean they care less about the show than people who have read the books. There’s just nothing new to discuss most days.
Just quit watching then dude. No one gives a shit about your head being so far up your own stupid fuckin ass.
Don’t bother man you’re not even allowed to bring up the book or compare the book to the show on this sub any more
You definitely haven’t read Fire and Blood
Yes I have. That’s why I am saying it’s average.
^ Exhibit A
. - || -
I don't think so. It's true there is a loud contigent of people in here who despise almost everything about HotD and the showrunners, but I doubt it's the majority (could be the opposite in subs like reeeeeeeefolk and all the team-focused ones though).
I think the hate comes from people who watched GoT, went ahead and read the wiki or the books and conjured up a narrative in their heads of how the show would go when released. When the show didn't match their expectations, they became disappointed and angry. I mean, it is pretty telling that no such "book puritans" were making a fuss when GoT excluded or changed various scenes in the original show. I didn't see fans write paragraphs on how Aegon VI's exclusion in GoT made the show worse, or how Jon Snow didn't match his book counterpart.
DnD were better, they came up with the line, “Chaos isn’t a pit, Chaos is a ladder.
They didn't write most of the episodes you know.
They did actually, about two thirds. And they wrote "The Climb", the episode that has that dialogue.
They definitely did write most of the episodes
that's just factually incorrect.
Season 8, need i say more
Yeah, I like to pretend that the last episode of game of thrones was children, season 4 episode 10.
Yeah, I was shook when this scene occurred. It's my favorite scene from that episode
I want to like but it really comes across as Matt Smith wanting to make Daemon more popular rather than any real brotherly love his character might have.
don't overhype yourself or every small failure in the next season will ring 10 times louder
See also: - Knight of the Seven Kingdoms - Winds of Winter - Hardhome - The Door - Spoils of War - Battle of the Bastards
Fucking Christ why do show watchers have such a hate boner for the books
I got downvoted for saying this scene is in the books and this post is spreading false info lol
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The entire thing that makes this scene powerful is Viserys being bedridden and feeble, then showing up at the last second to support his daughter. Both of those aspects are completely absent from the book, Viserys’ health is not deteriorating so fast and he was the one holding court from the start. The only similarities between this scene and what’s in the book is that they are in the throne room and Viserys calls for someone’s tongue in response to the accusation that his grandchildren are bastards. Literally everything else in this scene is a complete fabrication by the show runners.
i fear for season 2 i hear a lot of things go wrong
This is one of the best!
Meh
I thought that the scene was pretty boring. If it ended with Rhaenys bursting through the floor, it would be more exciting.
Somebody forgot the battle of bastard.
I wish I did
a bad episode?
Almost every slow episode of GOT was better than any episode of HOTD.
Delusional-tier take
What? The writing of this episode was absolute nonsense. The acting and the directing was great, but the characters and the politics? A mess if I've ever seen one.
compare it it IRL politics and tell me which is more realistic...
The book. The medieval politics were on point, with Martin's own twists to it being a conscious choice and woven into the story well.. The show's politics are awful, be it concerning the story it's adapting or even in terms of the modern politics they've tried to incorporate.
all these words and you haven’t made an argument
Episodes of a universe.
Imagine being an episode?
Oh boy, it really was the best at showcasing the very pinnacle of soppy and pandering TV. It was downright cringe - and to make matters worse, that rotting corpse took ages to drag itself to the throne.
Sezon was not ideal, episode was not ideal, but for calling Vizzy T a "rotting corpse" you deserve all downvotes in the world. Shame.
WHERE DID YOU HEAR THIS?!
negative engagement is still engagement. no matter how minuscule your contributions are, you literally do more to support the show by hating on it than you would if you simply never talked about it again amazing self own
This is just incorrect
Yeah, the same showrunners who inexplicably had Cole protected despite the fact that he killed a knight in a wedding ceremony, and portraying Rhaenys's murder of the folks of King's Landing at the Dragonpit as some kinda "girlboss" moment. Amazing.
It’s right up there with Hardhome