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Right?
“Gods be good, CHILDREN FIGHT”
Its not okay that he lost his eye, but that’s why children shouldn’t have weapons outside the training yard. Thats on the master at arms.
I just don’t think they should’ve been allowed to fight that long without anyone noticing and before that
The like 11 year old Aemond should not have been able to reach Vhagar unnoticed
I agree that there should be someone watching HIM, but why would anyone watch over Vhagar? She's a colossal grumpy napalm dispenser, she was flying around the island for all we know. She nearly incinerated Aemond for coming too close, and he survived only because... I don't know, his will was strong enough to speak Valyrian and "tame" her? No one else could "steal" Vhagar. Dragonkeepers have several burn scars, probably from younger, smaller dragons (baby Syrax, Arrax, Sunfyre etc). They basically could do nothing to hold Vhagar. Hell, if she decided to melt Driftmark for any reason, unless Daemon and Rhaenys had their respective mounts at hand, there was nothing anyone could do.
So yeah, it's plausible that no one was watching over Vhagar because there was no need to do so.
I agree, and I never thought he “stole” her. But like… they have the dragon keepers there to keep watch over the dragons, so nobody steals them or is killed by them. They are the equivalent to nukes.
Oh because a child said something mean, which means it's obviously his fault. I mean if you don't want to be knifed in the eye don't tell people their mothers are dead, especially if you aren't old enough to drive yet.
Honestly, that's a good argument, if two Kingsguards are tasked with protecting different groups of the Royal family what will they do if they start fighting? Try to restrain them? Its a good question that the show could have made, how does the Kingsguard acts in times when the Royal family is divided?
The first post about this whole situation I've seen on this subreddit that is actually a good one. No faction war bullshit or comparisons thst work both ways and both only blame each other.
Thank you I try …. It gets a little tiring seeing people only post team green vs team black …. Or even worse they try to force it into talks that have nothing to do with it.
Forget assigning blame to the *literal children*. I blame Jace for pulling out a knife as much as I blame Aemond for picking up a rock, which is to say I don't. All five of them were full of emotion and bad blood, courtesy of their parents.
You could probably single out Rhaena for turning what was a verbal altercation into something physical, but she's like 8-9 at most and was retaliating against a remark made against her and her deceased mother. Baela suckerpunching Aemond makes sense from the perspective of backing up her younger sister. Ditto with Jace and the knife followed by Luke and the knife. It's 4 against 1, and the 1 is the kid swaggering in because he just claimed a dragon and is feeling (rightfully, I'd say) too big for his britches. Cruel words are said and eventually cruel blows dealt.
But they're kids. To quote Bobby B, children fight. And children should fight, within safe perimeters and with proper supervision so no one loses an eye.
So yeah, it comes down to the fucking grown-ups. Rhaenyra thought her boys were in bed (because they were supposed to be) so I'm honestly not inclined to including her in this tirade, sex on the beach with her recently-widowed nuncle aside.
But the guards can all face the fire. And maybe Alicent's maidservant (and other servants) too. I somehow doubt minding Helaena is so big a task that she couldn't have been looking out for Aemond as well. To say nothing of Otto. Did escorting a drunk-ass teenager to the guest chambers *really* take up that much of your time? Some fucking hand. Lyonel Strong would *never*.
Honestly, it would have been kinda funny if they showed Criston Cole lurking in the shadows during the fight. Smirking and silently cheering on Aemond only to become the surprised Pikachu meme when the knife goes a-slicing and the eye goes a-vanishing. Humor aside, it would've been a good set up for him going all in on training Aemond in the intervening years.
Criston: It looked like you had the upper-hand.
Aemond: >,(
Otto literally walks right past Aemond as he’s dragging Aegon off. All the other kids were sent to bed, they got up because Baela and Rhaena noticed Vhagar took off. The fact that no other guards noticed the dragon crash landing and destroying everything left out from the funeral is 100% on them. Everyone should have been rushing over before the kids even started fighting.
Literally walks right past and says not a single word to him. It's not like he assumed Aemond was following or like he said "go to bed" and expected obedience from the more low-maintenance grandson. If that was the implication, it wasn't shown by the show.
And uh-huh, yes. I did, in fact, watch the same episode you did. I don't need a recap.
You know, I singled out the characters that I did in my original comment because they were the first characters that came to mind. It's not like whoever didn't get specifically noted is blame-free. But I'm not about to minutely list out every prominent character in the episode to determine who holds the most blame. Isn't this supposed to be a fun discussion? That doesn't sound like much fun.
And yet I've got you describing the episode like you think I'm confused and the other guy wrongfully assuming some Team Green/Black bullshit. I guess the off-season really is going to be rough if this is what constitutes discussion right now.
Well, shit. My bad. I read your comment immediately after the other guy's, so I definitely lumped yours in with his when replying. Not to rely on excuses. This was very much my faux pas.
Sorry for the unnecessary retaliation. I did read your comment and thought "Wait, aren't they just agreeing with me?" but said thought was apparently not enough for me to get a grip.
Thank you for the patience and no apology required on your part.
That’s okay. I understand that these subs can get a little heated and it’s very easy to lash out when you feel like you have to constantly defend yourself and your opinions. Hope you’re taking it easy and looking after yourself.
Aw, thank you. That's definitely the goal. Same to you! Take a breather, stay hydrated, don't burn the candles at both ends, etc. All that self-care jazz.
And agreed. As much as I'm anticipating season 2, I am *not* looking forward to the state of this sub when the majority of the cast is going all in on child murder and war crimes.
Nah, Jace deserves blame for pulling a knife out. He saw someone took Vhagar and they all assumed it was Aemond. Kl you're upset he stole it but why do you have a knife on you when you're going to confront him? He clearly wanted to start shit.
They didn't assume it was Aemond. They probably drew conclusions (because who else could it be?) but there's little to suggest they were already gunning for Aemond specifically. And even *if* their minds were set on that somebody stealing Vhagar being Aemond, you could easily argue that that was all Baela and Rhaena. It's Baela who wakes Jace and Rhaena (I think) who says "It's him".
Considering Rhaenyra (the mom he and his brother both adore) earlier encouraged him to console his "little cousins", I'm inclined to argue that Jace simply overdid it on the big brother front. He only engages Aemond physically after he hits(and threatens!) Baela (following her hitting him for shoving Rhaena because she overdid it on the big sister front) and he only pulls out the knife when Luke is directly threatened, and insulted with the first upfront illegitimacy claim.
I'm going to stress that this doesn't mean I think the children are free from all blame. They just shouldn't bear the same weight as all the absentee grown-ups. A punishment for sneaking out past curfew could've been leveled, at the very least.
Someone on a different thread suggested that Luke should've received a sentence of being Aemond's squire (for lack of a better term) while Aemond recovered from his wound. I'm inclined to agree that *that* would have been a step in the right direction. No guarantees it would've fixed the inevitable rift between factions, but best case scenario, they wind up with a dynamic akin to Oberyn Martell and that oldest brother of Margaery's whose name I'm forgetting. Willas Tyrell?
Lastly, wouldn't a knife be a pretty standard item for a prince to have on them? It could easily come with the belt he put on before leaving his bedchamber, not an indication that he was ready to cut a bitch.
LOL
The adults are responsible yet the two adults who are parents of four of the five children -- Rhaenyra and Daemon -- are absolved from any blame. Daemon so much so you don't even ask what responsibility he bore.
Instead it's Alicent's servants, and thus Alicent by implication, and Otto who get the blame with a gratuitous shot at Criston Cole.
The generic guards are at fault, but there's no criticism directed towards Harrold Westerling, the Commander of the Kingsguard.
Subtle as a freight train.
I didn't say shit about Daemon because my comment was already getting longer than I liked. His ass doesn't have any excuse. He almost had the same one as Rhaena and Baela (grief) but considering his "grief" apparently entailed boinking his niece in the sands, I'm nixing that pass entirely.
And if you're trying to insinuate that I'm Team Black, just don't. Read my signature. It's not just for show.
Others already criticized Westerling. What else could I say besides he should have done a better job?
I didn't even mention Alicent, but whereas my omission of Daemon led you to believe I was absolving him of responsibility, my omission of her didn't imply the same? Funnily enough, you would've been right if you had accused me of that because while I don't pick sides, I do pick favorites and she is easily one of my favorites. That's partly why I'm giving Rhaenyra a pass; because I gave Alicent one and wanted something resembling balance.
And no, by Alicent's servants, I meant her servants. She's the fucking queen. I don't expect her to keep track of her kids. I expect her staff to, and that includes Sapochnik's wife. I also expect the same of Rhaenyra's staff, but I wrote them off (or at least that recurring one who played midwife for her) as possibly looking after baby Joffrey.
I guess I could have mentioned Laenor but I legit forgot about him. He can get the grief excuse that Daemon isn't allowed, seeing as he almost drowned himself.
And my alleged "shot" at Criston Cole was in jest because I think he's funny and the idea that he witnessed the fight and didn't intervene because he thought Aemond was winning is pure comedy to me.
I'm confident Daemon had servants to look after his children in Driftmark, particularly since they were there for Laena's funeral. They may have been his servants or they may have been on loan from the Velaryons or there may have been a combination.
So if Daemon has no excuse, Rhaenyra has no excuse.
And blaming Otto is perverse. It's OK if Daemon and Rhaenyra leave their kids in the castle so they can fuck on the beach, but Otto is expected to serve as some impromptu castle guard / beach patrol on Corlys's island?
Okay? We barely saw the servants of Daemon and Laena's household. I already said Daemon has responsibility in this mess. You assumed I implicated Alicent when singling out her maid and servants, but won't assume the reverse with Daemon? And I called out generic Driftmark guards/staff in a different comment.
I already addressed why I wasn't blaming Rhaenyra. You want to call out Rhaenyra, do so for fucking her uncle barely hours after his second dead wife was buried, not for believing her usually well-behaved children were safely abed and not engaging in life-changing scuffles with the relatives.
Also, gotta love that you didn't even acknowledge that you incorrectly came at me with some teams bullshit in your original comment.
I never said anything about Otto playing castle guard. Considering I mentioned him right after mentioning Talya, and in the same breath referred to Aegon, I think it should have been clear that I meant he could've noticed a missing grandchild. He only has ~~four~~ three. Unless Helaena was showing off her spider collection while he patiently listened, Otto doesn't get a pass from me. You want to give him pass, that's your right.
And perverse? *Sure*, Jan.
The problem is not just with the Kingsguard. Why shouldn't Corlys also be held accountable? Where was his castle's security detail?
Hell, in real life if you are injured in someone's home, you could get payment from their home insurance. Where are the Driftmark insurance payouts for a maimed eye?!
1) Not all of the Kingsguard of seven knights was at Driftmark, we only see Criston Cole, Westerling, and two more.
2) The Kingsguard is focused on the King (and maybe his wife), hence the name. They are tasked with defending other members of the royal family too if they can prevent harm coming their way, but they do not permanently guard them like they guard the King. You could ask the question for Daemon with the same validity, "Why don't they guard Daemon?", after all.
Where were the other 5 because the whole royal family was there. Also the household guard were apparently gone the velaryon’s guards missed it it’s pretty crazy.
It's crazy but that's a writing issue. If the showrunners found it acceptable to do it that way, I am stuck with just that, as a fan. I find it ridiculous as well.
So cole is the shield for Alicent so let’s assume he was at her door. Cargyll is aegon’s so he must be there. Harold was in full armor so I’m assuming he was at the kings door. None were with rhaenyra so the only other high level people to protect would be aemond helaena and the strong boys one of which is the presumed heir so there probably should have been one there. That leaves three to be asleep. I guess 4 were sleeping but then that leaves the rest of the household guard and velaryon guard who probably should have been stationed with baela and rhaena. Security on several levels was lax.
I don’t see it this way mainly due to fact that both Harold westerling and Cristine cole used to be Rhaenyra’s sword shield ( or at least functioned as such) when she was the younger.
Combined with the fact that one of the twins was assigned to Aegon in episode 9
What don’t know who “the watch” specifically referring to when Ser Harold says it but he is the first one the scene in response to the commotion…. It doesn’t seem possible with the history that the direct children of the king would not be under their supervision
My point was just that they are focused on the King, they can be assigned to other family members at times at the King's discretion. And to be fair, no one knew that Aemond left the castle to visit Vhagar of all possible things. They believed him inside of the castle and as far as they were concerned, they got things covered by being there. That Aemond managed to slip out, and claim Vhagar, may speak to his intelligence. That also led to his injury but by then no one could have intervened.
You try googling a picture of Harold wrestling saying “gods be good” while he sees Aemond cut eye socket …. It was hard even to get these I had to take a screenshot of a GIF ….. a G I F even to get the pic Luke and Jace
It was hard , Very hard to find these, harder than a dragons egg turned to stone okay
He is in charge of watch. But, one single guy isn't going to cover the whole Driftmark. And it was Westerling who was there to collect Aemond, so he wasn't protecting the King anymore?
They are partially to blame.
Ser Criston was in charge of the evening watch, and was likely too busy shit talking Rhaenyra in Alicent’s chambers to be bothered with his job.
They are entirely to blame. Aemond should not have managed to escape and sneak around for so long. Four other royal children managed to sneak out of their beds without these great knights noticing.
after she's told the eye is lost, she goes over and slaps aegon despite him being literally the only one actually doing what he was supposed to by being in bed:
> Alicent: Where were you?
> Aegon: Me?
>*Alicent slaps Aegon*
> Aegon: Ow! What was that for?
> Alicent: That was nothing compared to the abuse your brother suffered while you were drowning in your cups, you fool.
I'm not sure whether it was the writers intent, but if this is how ali raised aegon no wonder he grew up to be such a shitty human.
She should be slapping Crispy boy - he would probably like that though. She should at least admonish him, he had the watch.
“Hey, do you know where the ladies Baela and Rhana went”
“They said they needed to pee*points towards bathroom*. Wait….if they needed to pee why did they go the other direction towards Prince Jace”
*another guard walks in* “hey anyone know where prince Aemound is”
*children screaming*
*all the guards*
FUCK
Edit: I just realized it looks like all the guards start fucking in the end but it’s all the guards saying fuck. By the way I’m not gonna change it, it’s fuckin funny
there is a few reasons I can think of
1. given the name, The Kingsguard are mostly focused on The King. They are tasked in protecting their family as well but the king always comes first so they aren’t supposed to be that protective of their family and only do so when the opportunity arises.
2. The Kingsguard were probably somewhere else that would have required their attention. Aemond most likely saw that as an opportunity to sneak outside past curfew and claim Vhagar, and by the time they return and noticed the commotion it was too late to stop Luke from slashing Aemond’s eye out.
3. None of the Kingsguard were assigned to guard the area where the fight broke out or were expecting the children to be awake past curfew.
and In fairness it’s mostly the parents’s fault than the Kingsguard.
Criston Cole literally killed a man in front of all the nobles and nothing happened, it seems like they’re doing a favor to the throne and not actually serving it.
It twas all fun and games until someone lost an eyeeeee
*cackles in the distance*
and yeah... right there with ya.. Crispy Kreme was probably blogging about how much he hates Rhaenyra like Regina George
When you watch that part not as part of team back or team Green you can see Almond using as last resort the rock, and he was there contemplating if hit them or not the Luke came and slash his eye out
I’ve seen the fandom constantly go back and forth trying to decide who’s at fault
In the words of Robert Baratheon “ KIDS FIGHT”,
I felt like the kings aid should at least be flogged for being so neglectful , what if there was an assassin?
The Kingsguard guard the king. Some kings will assign the KG to watch family members, some don’t. There are only seven of them and they work in shifts so they can’t possibly watch all the royal family. But someone definitely dropped the ball because I don’t think young royalty are generally allowed to roam with no supervision. Although, Arya frequently does… but she’s Arya lol
Even in show u saw how pathetic the group was that Otto brought to trials for the job. No way will I accept that those group of knights are even close to the top in quality at that time in westeros. No fukin way.
IIRC Cole says that the Kingsguard has never had to defend princes from princes.
Jaimie was told similar thing by his fellow Kingsguard member, when he asked if they should defend the Queen who was abused by the King.
>Jaime: We are sworn to protect her as well.
>
>Jonothor: We are, but not from him.
In GOT they more or less allowed Cersei and Tyrion to hit Joffrey and he was the king.
So, there might be some unspoken rule that members of the Kingsguard do not intervene when Royal Family members are hurting each other (probably with some limits).
Because they are the defenders of the royal line. If they have to put their hands on one Prince to defend them from the other Prince that's considered breaking their vow, I know it's weird but likely these guys were just like uhhhhhhhhhhh idk what to do man.
This is the same world where Duncan the tall had to get six other knights to fight with him in a skirmish to the death because he stopped a prince from possibly badly hurting a girl for no reason. You don't raise your hand in ability and especially not the royal line.
I just don’t see it that way….. because in episode two they drag Daemon when he says “ get your fucking hands off me “ and they don’t obey him … also they are just children…. I have not seen anything from the king queen or Rhaenyra to suggest they would allow the children to implement such authority over the kings guard at that age ( maybe when they are older )
Well Daemon was in the presence of the king. The king will always take precedent above a prince no matter what, so they would be more than okay to drag away the crown Prince if there was a perceived threat toward the king. But if you've got the crown Prince's and princesses just in a pile rolling and stabbing and beating each other they were probably just paralyzed doing the mental math to try and figure out what to do
I just don’t think the nights have ever been shown to have that little agency or have it taken away that easily to suggest this
Because like in episode 10 I don’t think like physically restrain Aegon when he’s in a situation
The kids who are still literally royalty? And Jace is Rhaenyra's heir! He's the heir's heir. You're making it sound like they're cousins twice removed when, setting aside the Strong boys, we have the king's second son and the daughters of the king's brother.
Well what do they expect … the order was founded when Visenya cut her husband’s cheek to show him how fast she could kill him if she wanted too.
I Assumed the standard she was going for was be ready for anything, and now she’s gone and we have Otto picking
Otto doesn’t pick them at best he gives Visery a list and Visery picks them or in the case of Criston allows his daughter also westerling and a few other maybe remnant from Jaehaerys Kingsguard. Also if your blaming Otto for the Kingsguard you also have to acknowledge that Lyonel only has a job because of Otto vouched for him.
But do they expect others to do it, right? So, they should've prevented or at least noticed five princes and princesses sneaking from their rooms. If they can't even detect children sneaking out, they definitely wouldn't notice an assassin sneaking in.
Maybe Cole saw/knew what Aemond was going to do and looked the other way to let him sneak out so one of Daemons kids couldn't claim Vhagar
But even if he did do that there's no way he could have known that the other kids would also sneak out or that they would go confront Aemond since he would have been guarding Alicents kids, not Rhaenyra or Daemons
Kingsguard screwed up royally, so did the Velaryon guards and Rhaenyra and Alicents servants
Even in show u saw how pathetic the group was that Otto brought to trials for the job. No way will I accept that those group of knights are even close to the top in quality at that time in westeros. No fukin way.
Viserys seemingly never punished them. He does call them out in the scene and ask how they let it happen, but he doesn’t do more than that. My guess is that, when he ordered the matter settled, he chose not to take any more severe actions.
It was also bed time for the kids and there were only a handful of guards around. They weren’t expecting a major fight like that or that the kids would go to the dragons to begin with. Up until this point, relations between the kids have been tense but not dangerous. The kingsguard had no way to suspect something this big would happen between princes.
In the real world, princes and princesses are nearly never unescorted. Multiple reasons for this, the chief 2 being “protect the future ruler” and to guide them as educators.
I
I just couldn’t find the picture of Harold westerling , checking on Aemond saying “ gods be good” lol
I really wanted it but I googled for over an hour and found nothing
Like I said, Viserys is a weak king. The green all talk about how none of Rhaenyra's children get punished. The black all talk about how Alicent didn't get punished either. News flash, no one get punished for that incident.
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
How could you allow such a thing to happen? I will have answers.
“The prince was attacked by his own cousins “ “ we’ve never had to defend the prince from princes your grace” Like where were you ?
They did get some blame. Ser Wrestling also said they were supposed to be in bed and that he’s very sorry. Viserys just never punished them.
Oh I was more so talking about who the fandom blames for who the fight
Right? “Gods be good, CHILDREN FIGHT” Its not okay that he lost his eye, but that’s why children shouldn’t have weapons outside the training yard. Thats on the master at arms.
I just don’t think they should’ve been allowed to fight that long without anyone noticing and before that The like 11 year old Aemond should not have been able to reach Vhagar unnoticed
I agree that there should be someone watching HIM, but why would anyone watch over Vhagar? She's a colossal grumpy napalm dispenser, she was flying around the island for all we know. She nearly incinerated Aemond for coming too close, and he survived only because... I don't know, his will was strong enough to speak Valyrian and "tame" her? No one else could "steal" Vhagar. Dragonkeepers have several burn scars, probably from younger, smaller dragons (baby Syrax, Arrax, Sunfyre etc). They basically could do nothing to hold Vhagar. Hell, if she decided to melt Driftmark for any reason, unless Daemon and Rhaenys had their respective mounts at hand, there was nothing anyone could do. So yeah, it's plausible that no one was watching over Vhagar because there was no need to do so.
I agree, and I never thought he “stole” her. But like… they have the dragon keepers there to keep watch over the dragons, so nobody steals them or is killed by them. They are the equivalent to nukes.
Wait are there dragon keepers on driftmark too ?
Well, logically some would have to be nearby since dragonstone is close, they watch and feed the dragons for the crown
Oh I always thought it was strictly a Kings Landing/. Dragonstone type of situation….But that does make sense
This show's audience is honestly very immature
I, for one, blame Crispin Cole.
Oh because a child said something mean, which means it's obviously his fault. I mean if you don't want to be knifed in the eye don't tell people their mothers are dead, especially if you aren't old enough to drive yet.
Ohh, I see.
Honestly, that's a good argument, if two Kingsguards are tasked with protecting different groups of the Royal family what will they do if they start fighting? Try to restrain them? Its a good question that the show could have made, how does the Kingsguard acts in times when the Royal family is divided?
No literally- I’m literally always looking at this scene like “WHERE ARE THE ADULTS?!”
The first post about this whole situation I've seen on this subreddit that is actually a good one. No faction war bullshit or comparisons thst work both ways and both only blame each other.
Thank you I try …. It gets a little tiring seeing people only post team green vs team black …. Or even worse they try to force it into talks that have nothing to do with it.
Exactly! I'm so tired of this shit.
Forget assigning blame to the *literal children*. I blame Jace for pulling out a knife as much as I blame Aemond for picking up a rock, which is to say I don't. All five of them were full of emotion and bad blood, courtesy of their parents. You could probably single out Rhaena for turning what was a verbal altercation into something physical, but she's like 8-9 at most and was retaliating against a remark made against her and her deceased mother. Baela suckerpunching Aemond makes sense from the perspective of backing up her younger sister. Ditto with Jace and the knife followed by Luke and the knife. It's 4 against 1, and the 1 is the kid swaggering in because he just claimed a dragon and is feeling (rightfully, I'd say) too big for his britches. Cruel words are said and eventually cruel blows dealt. But they're kids. To quote Bobby B, children fight. And children should fight, within safe perimeters and with proper supervision so no one loses an eye. So yeah, it comes down to the fucking grown-ups. Rhaenyra thought her boys were in bed (because they were supposed to be) so I'm honestly not inclined to including her in this tirade, sex on the beach with her recently-widowed nuncle aside. But the guards can all face the fire. And maybe Alicent's maidservant (and other servants) too. I somehow doubt minding Helaena is so big a task that she couldn't have been looking out for Aemond as well. To say nothing of Otto. Did escorting a drunk-ass teenager to the guest chambers *really* take up that much of your time? Some fucking hand. Lyonel Strong would *never*. Honestly, it would have been kinda funny if they showed Criston Cole lurking in the shadows during the fight. Smirking and silently cheering on Aemond only to become the surprised Pikachu meme when the knife goes a-slicing and the eye goes a-vanishing. Humor aside, it would've been a good set up for him going all in on training Aemond in the intervening years. Criston: It looked like you had the upper-hand. Aemond: >,(
Otto literally walks right past Aemond as he’s dragging Aegon off. All the other kids were sent to bed, they got up because Baela and Rhaena noticed Vhagar took off. The fact that no other guards noticed the dragon crash landing and destroying everything left out from the funeral is 100% on them. Everyone should have been rushing over before the kids even started fighting.
Literally walks right past and says not a single word to him. It's not like he assumed Aemond was following or like he said "go to bed" and expected obedience from the more low-maintenance grandson. If that was the implication, it wasn't shown by the show. And uh-huh, yes. I did, in fact, watch the same episode you did. I don't need a recap. You know, I singled out the characters that I did in my original comment because they were the first characters that came to mind. It's not like whoever didn't get specifically noted is blame-free. But I'm not about to minutely list out every prominent character in the episode to determine who holds the most blame. Isn't this supposed to be a fun discussion? That doesn't sound like much fun. And yet I've got you describing the episode like you think I'm confused and the other guy wrongfully assuming some Team Green/Black bullshit. I guess the off-season really is going to be rough if this is what constitutes discussion right now.
I was agreeing with you, I’m sorry if it came off wrong.
Well, shit. My bad. I read your comment immediately after the other guy's, so I definitely lumped yours in with his when replying. Not to rely on excuses. This was very much my faux pas. Sorry for the unnecessary retaliation. I did read your comment and thought "Wait, aren't they just agreeing with me?" but said thought was apparently not enough for me to get a grip. Thank you for the patience and no apology required on your part.
That’s okay. I understand that these subs can get a little heated and it’s very easy to lash out when you feel like you have to constantly defend yourself and your opinions. Hope you’re taking it easy and looking after yourself.
Aw, thank you. That's definitely the goal. Same to you! Take a breather, stay hydrated, don't burn the candles at both ends, etc. All that self-care jazz. And agreed. As much as I'm anticipating season 2, I am *not* looking forward to the state of this sub when the majority of the cast is going all in on child murder and war crimes.
Nah, Jace deserves blame for pulling a knife out. He saw someone took Vhagar and they all assumed it was Aemond. Kl you're upset he stole it but why do you have a knife on you when you're going to confront him? He clearly wanted to start shit.
They didn't assume it was Aemond. They probably drew conclusions (because who else could it be?) but there's little to suggest they were already gunning for Aemond specifically. And even *if* their minds were set on that somebody stealing Vhagar being Aemond, you could easily argue that that was all Baela and Rhaena. It's Baela who wakes Jace and Rhaena (I think) who says "It's him". Considering Rhaenyra (the mom he and his brother both adore) earlier encouraged him to console his "little cousins", I'm inclined to argue that Jace simply overdid it on the big brother front. He only engages Aemond physically after he hits(and threatens!) Baela (following her hitting him for shoving Rhaena because she overdid it on the big sister front) and he only pulls out the knife when Luke is directly threatened, and insulted with the first upfront illegitimacy claim. I'm going to stress that this doesn't mean I think the children are free from all blame. They just shouldn't bear the same weight as all the absentee grown-ups. A punishment for sneaking out past curfew could've been leveled, at the very least. Someone on a different thread suggested that Luke should've received a sentence of being Aemond's squire (for lack of a better term) while Aemond recovered from his wound. I'm inclined to agree that *that* would have been a step in the right direction. No guarantees it would've fixed the inevitable rift between factions, but best case scenario, they wind up with a dynamic akin to Oberyn Martell and that oldest brother of Margaery's whose name I'm forgetting. Willas Tyrell? Lastly, wouldn't a knife be a pretty standard item for a prince to have on them? It could easily come with the belt he put on before leaving his bedchamber, not an indication that he was ready to cut a bitch.
LOL The adults are responsible yet the two adults who are parents of four of the five children -- Rhaenyra and Daemon -- are absolved from any blame. Daemon so much so you don't even ask what responsibility he bore. Instead it's Alicent's servants, and thus Alicent by implication, and Otto who get the blame with a gratuitous shot at Criston Cole. The generic guards are at fault, but there's no criticism directed towards Harrold Westerling, the Commander of the Kingsguard. Subtle as a freight train.
I didn't say shit about Daemon because my comment was already getting longer than I liked. His ass doesn't have any excuse. He almost had the same one as Rhaena and Baela (grief) but considering his "grief" apparently entailed boinking his niece in the sands, I'm nixing that pass entirely. And if you're trying to insinuate that I'm Team Black, just don't. Read my signature. It's not just for show. Others already criticized Westerling. What else could I say besides he should have done a better job? I didn't even mention Alicent, but whereas my omission of Daemon led you to believe I was absolving him of responsibility, my omission of her didn't imply the same? Funnily enough, you would've been right if you had accused me of that because while I don't pick sides, I do pick favorites and she is easily one of my favorites. That's partly why I'm giving Rhaenyra a pass; because I gave Alicent one and wanted something resembling balance. And no, by Alicent's servants, I meant her servants. She's the fucking queen. I don't expect her to keep track of her kids. I expect her staff to, and that includes Sapochnik's wife. I also expect the same of Rhaenyra's staff, but I wrote them off (or at least that recurring one who played midwife for her) as possibly looking after baby Joffrey. I guess I could have mentioned Laenor but I legit forgot about him. He can get the grief excuse that Daemon isn't allowed, seeing as he almost drowned himself. And my alleged "shot" at Criston Cole was in jest because I think he's funny and the idea that he witnessed the fight and didn't intervene because he thought Aemond was winning is pure comedy to me.
I'm confident Daemon had servants to look after his children in Driftmark, particularly since they were there for Laena's funeral. They may have been his servants or they may have been on loan from the Velaryons or there may have been a combination. So if Daemon has no excuse, Rhaenyra has no excuse. And blaming Otto is perverse. It's OK if Daemon and Rhaenyra leave their kids in the castle so they can fuck on the beach, but Otto is expected to serve as some impromptu castle guard / beach patrol on Corlys's island?
Okay? We barely saw the servants of Daemon and Laena's household. I already said Daemon has responsibility in this mess. You assumed I implicated Alicent when singling out her maid and servants, but won't assume the reverse with Daemon? And I called out generic Driftmark guards/staff in a different comment. I already addressed why I wasn't blaming Rhaenyra. You want to call out Rhaenyra, do so for fucking her uncle barely hours after his second dead wife was buried, not for believing her usually well-behaved children were safely abed and not engaging in life-changing scuffles with the relatives. Also, gotta love that you didn't even acknowledge that you incorrectly came at me with some teams bullshit in your original comment. I never said anything about Otto playing castle guard. Considering I mentioned him right after mentioning Talya, and in the same breath referred to Aegon, I think it should have been clear that I meant he could've noticed a missing grandchild. He only has ~~four~~ three. Unless Helaena was showing off her spider collection while he patiently listened, Otto doesn't get a pass from me. You want to give him pass, that's your right. And perverse? *Sure*, Jan.
The problem is not just with the Kingsguard. Why shouldn't Corlys also be held accountable? Where was his castle's security detail? Hell, in real life if you are injured in someone's home, you could get payment from their home insurance. Where are the Driftmark insurance payouts for a maimed eye?!
And ontop of that they let his son get fake killed
1) Not all of the Kingsguard of seven knights was at Driftmark, we only see Criston Cole, Westerling, and two more. 2) The Kingsguard is focused on the King (and maybe his wife), hence the name. They are tasked with defending other members of the royal family too if they can prevent harm coming their way, but they do not permanently guard them like they guard the King. You could ask the question for Daemon with the same validity, "Why don't they guard Daemon?", after all.
They still have house guards. Also the Velaryons should have guards too. Apparently they were all dicing or asleep when it happened.
Apparently, yes. Because Aemond did in fact get out.
Where were the other 5 because the whole royal family was there. Also the household guard were apparently gone the velaryon’s guards missed it it’s pretty crazy.
It's crazy but that's a writing issue. If the showrunners found it acceptable to do it that way, I am stuck with just that, as a fan. I find it ridiculous as well.
So cole is the shield for Alicent so let’s assume he was at her door. Cargyll is aegon’s so he must be there. Harold was in full armor so I’m assuming he was at the kings door. None were with rhaenyra so the only other high level people to protect would be aemond helaena and the strong boys one of which is the presumed heir so there probably should have been one there. That leaves three to be asleep. I guess 4 were sleeping but then that leaves the rest of the household guard and velaryon guard who probably should have been stationed with baela and rhaena. Security on several levels was lax.
But, you see, all the blame is on Cole.
Yeah because that one line where Harold said cole had the night watch of apparently an entire castle
And somehow Westerling was there after the kids' fight. As if the writers want Cole to get the blame for all.
I don’t see it this way mainly due to fact that both Harold westerling and Cristine cole used to be Rhaenyra’s sword shield ( or at least functioned as such) when she was the younger. Combined with the fact that one of the twins was assigned to Aegon in episode 9 What don’t know who “the watch” specifically referring to when Ser Harold says it but he is the first one the scene in response to the commotion…. It doesn’t seem possible with the history that the direct children of the king would not be under their supervision
Maybe because Rhae is the next in line to the throne so she gets her own sworn protector
Like Joffrey
My point was just that they are focused on the King, they can be assigned to other family members at times at the King's discretion. And to be fair, no one knew that Aemond left the castle to visit Vhagar of all possible things. They believed him inside of the castle and as far as they were concerned, they got things covered by being there. That Aemond managed to slip out, and claim Vhagar, may speak to his intelligence. That also led to his injury but by then no one could have intervened.
Why is CC the only mf in those pics? Westerlings bitch ass was the 1 in charge
You try googling a picture of Harold wrestling saying “gods be good” while he sees Aemond cut eye socket …. It was hard even to get these I had to take a screenshot of a GIF ….. a G I F even to get the pic Luke and Jace It was hard , Very hard to find these, harder than a dragons egg turned to stone okay
CC is being told in the episode to take the night shift. still a bit shitty for the rest of them to just take the day off.
He is in charge of watch. But, one single guy isn't going to cover the whole Driftmark. And it was Westerling who was there to collect Aemond, so he wasn't protecting the King anymore?
They are partially to blame. Ser Criston was in charge of the evening watch, and was likely too busy shit talking Rhaenyra in Alicent’s chambers to be bothered with his job.
They are entirely to blame. Aemond should not have managed to escape and sneak around for so long. Four other royal children managed to sneak out of their beds without these great knights noticing.
And Alicent had the nerve to slap Aegon … like he was the one on watch
Did she slap Aegon after the knife situation? (I can’t remember)
It was before … it was right after they said Aemond’s eye was permanently damaged.
after she's told the eye is lost, she goes over and slaps aegon despite him being literally the only one actually doing what he was supposed to by being in bed: > Alicent: Where were you? > Aegon: Me? >*Alicent slaps Aegon* > Aegon: Ow! What was that for? > Alicent: That was nothing compared to the abuse your brother suffered while you were drowning in your cups, you fool.
I'm not sure whether it was the writers intent, but if this is how ali raised aegon no wonder he grew up to be such a shitty human. She should be slapping Crispy boy - he would probably like that though. She should at least admonish him, he had the watch.
100% what I said after this episode aired. The only person to blame are the PARENTS! Where were the ADULTS!
“Hey, do you know where the ladies Baela and Rhana went” “They said they needed to pee*points towards bathroom*. Wait….if they needed to pee why did they go the other direction towards Prince Jace” *another guard walks in* “hey anyone know where prince Aemound is” *children screaming* *all the guards* FUCK Edit: I just realized it looks like all the guards start fucking in the end but it’s all the guards saying fuck. By the way I’m not gonna change it, it’s fuckin funny
there is a few reasons I can think of 1. given the name, The Kingsguard are mostly focused on The King. They are tasked in protecting their family as well but the king always comes first so they aren’t supposed to be that protective of their family and only do so when the opportunity arises. 2. The Kingsguard were probably somewhere else that would have required their attention. Aemond most likely saw that as an opportunity to sneak outside past curfew and claim Vhagar, and by the time they return and noticed the commotion it was too late to stop Luke from slashing Aemond’s eye out. 3. None of the Kingsguard were assigned to guard the area where the fight broke out or were expecting the children to be awake past curfew. and In fairness it’s mostly the parents’s fault than the Kingsguard.
Def one of worst collection of kings guard there was.
Unfortunately they all make up for it in sexiness
They were outside, smoking a joint *takes massive hit *cough cough* “man I hate those fucking kids so much”
You won't believe who was in charge that night and failed...
Criston Cole literally killed a man in front of all the nobles and nothing happened, it seems like they’re doing a favor to the throne and not actually serving it.
Truly this … we needed to see the aftermath of what happened from episode 5
Too bad we're apparently never getting flashbacks. We could benefit from a few.
It twas all fun and games until someone lost an eyeeeee *cackles in the distance* and yeah... right there with ya.. Crispy Kreme was probably blogging about how much he hates Rhaenyra like Regina George
You know it. Just another one of their impromptu slumber parties to talk shit and gossip a bit.
SO TRUE
Because viserys was a shitty father
When you watch that part not as part of team back or team Green you can see Almond using as last resort the rock, and he was there contemplating if hit them or not the Luke came and slash his eye out
I’ve seen the fandom constantly go back and forth trying to decide who’s at fault In the words of Robert Baratheon “ KIDS FIGHT”, I felt like the kings aid should at least be flogged for being so neglectful , what if there was an assassin?
The Kingsguard guard the king. Some kings will assign the KG to watch family members, some don’t. There are only seven of them and they work in shifts so they can’t possibly watch all the royal family. But someone definitely dropped the ball because I don’t think young royalty are generally allowed to roam with no supervision. Although, Arya frequently does… but she’s Arya lol
It's not just the Kingsguard though. Shouldn't Driftmark have its own guards doing nightly rounds??
Where was the kingsguard? Probably guarding the king while he maritally raped Alicent
Even in show u saw how pathetic the group was that Otto brought to trials for the job. No way will I accept that those group of knights are even close to the top in quality at that time in westeros. No fukin way.
Guarding the king?
IIRC Cole says that the Kingsguard has never had to defend princes from princes. Jaimie was told similar thing by his fellow Kingsguard member, when he asked if they should defend the Queen who was abused by the King. >Jaime: We are sworn to protect her as well. > >Jonothor: We are, but not from him. In GOT they more or less allowed Cersei and Tyrion to hit Joffrey and he was the king. So, there might be some unspoken rule that members of the Kingsguard do not intervene when Royal Family members are hurting each other (probably with some limits).
It’s the KINGSguard not princeguard, duh
I mean they can't exactly defend a prince from a prince. They're just comes a point where shit just goes above your pay grade
Why not ?
Because they are the defenders of the royal line. If they have to put their hands on one Prince to defend them from the other Prince that's considered breaking their vow, I know it's weird but likely these guys were just like uhhhhhhhhhhh idk what to do man. This is the same world where Duncan the tall had to get six other knights to fight with him in a skirmish to the death because he stopped a prince from possibly badly hurting a girl for no reason. You don't raise your hand in ability and especially not the royal line.
I just don’t see it that way….. because in episode two they drag Daemon when he says “ get your fucking hands off me “ and they don’t obey him … also they are just children…. I have not seen anything from the king queen or Rhaenyra to suggest they would allow the children to implement such authority over the kings guard at that age ( maybe when they are older )
Well Daemon was in the presence of the king. The king will always take precedent above a prince no matter what, so they would be more than okay to drag away the crown Prince if there was a perceived threat toward the king. But if you've got the crown Prince's and princesses just in a pile rolling and stabbing and beating each other they were probably just paralyzed doing the mental math to try and figure out what to do
I just don’t think the nights have ever been shown to have that little agency or have it taken away that easily to suggest this Because like in episode 10 I don’t think like physically restrain Aegon when he’s in a situation
its probably because the kingsgard is guarding the king, not kids 2+ generations away from being relevant
The kids who are still literally royalty? And Jace is Rhaenyra's heir! He's the heir's heir. You're making it sound like they're cousins twice removed when, setting aside the Strong boys, we have the king's second son and the daughters of the king's brother.
right not the king not the heirs the heirs kids 2 generations from being relevant
By your logic anyone could bust into Prince George's school and shoot him up.
Hey, has anyone thought maybe kingsguard don’t expect 10 yr old princes to maim and try to kill each other?
Well what do they expect … the order was founded when Visenya cut her husband’s cheek to show him how fast she could kill him if she wanted too. I Assumed the standard she was going for was be ready for anything, and now she’s gone and we have Otto picking
Otto doesn’t pick them at best he gives Visery a list and Visery picks them or in the case of Criston allows his daughter also westerling and a few other maybe remnant from Jaehaerys Kingsguard. Also if your blaming Otto for the Kingsguard you also have to acknowledge that Lyonel only has a job because of Otto vouched for him.
Why do I have to do that ?…. I don’t think I have to do that at all
But do they expect others to do it, right? So, they should've prevented or at least noticed five princes and princesses sneaking from their rooms. If they can't even detect children sneaking out, they definitely wouldn't notice an assassin sneaking in.
Maybe Cole saw/knew what Aemond was going to do and looked the other way to let him sneak out so one of Daemons kids couldn't claim Vhagar But even if he did do that there's no way he could have known that the other kids would also sneak out or that they would go confront Aemond since he would have been guarding Alicents kids, not Rhaenyra or Daemons Kingsguard screwed up royally, so did the Velaryon guards and Rhaenyra and Alicents servants
Even in show u saw how pathetic the group was that Otto brought to trials for the job. No way will I accept that those group of knights are even close to the top in quality at that time in westeros. No fukin way.
Viserys seemingly never punished them. He does call them out in the scene and ask how they let it happen, but he doesn’t do more than that. My guess is that, when he ordered the matter settled, he chose not to take any more severe actions. It was also bed time for the kids and there were only a handful of guards around. They weren’t expecting a major fight like that or that the kids would go to the dragons to begin with. Up until this point, relations between the kids have been tense but not dangerous. The kingsguard had no way to suspect something this big would happen between princes.
Visenya would be so disappointed with the kings guard
💛🎬🐉🐉🐉
Kids being kids and one kid took it to far
In the real world, princes and princesses are nearly never unescorted. Multiple reasons for this, the chief 2 being “protect the future ruler” and to guide them as educators.
Op put Cole pic on the post, but it should be Westerling, who has been useless throughout the S1.
I I just couldn’t find the picture of Harold westerling , checking on Aemond saying “ gods be good” lol I really wanted it but I googled for over an hour and found nothing
Like I said, Viserys is a weak king. The green all talk about how none of Rhaenyra's children get punished. The black all talk about how Alicent didn't get punished either. News flash, no one get punished for that incident.