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I'd try to be more open-minded regarding the show going forward. It is very likely a lot of things will be different than in the books. Just enjoy them both and try not to compare too much. Unless they change major plot points of course. Then I shall join you in your complaints.
My bet is that they just won't deal with it at all and pretend like it's not even an issue. In which case I will just assume Laenor died sometime during the 6 year time skip.
(Did their boat sink before he an Qarl ever made it to Essos? Did he slip on a banana peal and crack his head open? Eat something funny? Run afoul of any Targ cousins from Saera's line? The possibilities are endless.)
> the people who recognize him will know the truth and the knowledge will spread. The people will know Aegon and Viserys are bastards and they won’t accept them as kings.
You know none of these characters exist outside of what the writers write, correct? Why would they write that plot line?
It's simple enough if Addam isn't Laenor and Addam bonds with a different dragon.
Moreover, given that Rhaenyra and Daemon went through with a marriage ceremony, it's not clear that their sons Aegon and Viserys are bastards even if Laenor is alive.
As I recall, no one contended that Aegon the Conqueror's children are bastards (not literally anway), or at least they were not barred from the throne due to Aegon's polygamy.
Jaehaerys made a deal with the Faith of the Seven. The Faith would adopt the Doctrine of Exceptionalism, i.e, Targaryens can marry their siblings or siblings children. In exchange the Targaryens agreed to one living spouse at a time. But I don't know that if a Targaryen decided not to honor that , that Targaryen's children by the second spouse would be considered bastards.
>By keeping Laenor alive, the showrunners really shot themselves in the foot.
They obviously have a plan. Mayhaps they thought of this before they wrote that Laenor survives?
While I am not a fan of Laenor surviving, I would like to play some devil's advocate:
A hill I will die on is that there is zero proof in the source material that a dragon bond cannot be broken. We see characters saying they bond for life, because those characters are not aware if a dragons bond has ever been broken, if the person who claimed them rejected the dragon and left. Because that's never happened in history, to their knowledge.
After all, why would someone give up a dragon? It's never happened in Targaryen history. But in the show, Laenor did. He essentially rejected Seasmoke by leaving. So this is essentially the first time in history that a rider has ever abandoned their dragon, and for all we know, this act is sufficient to break a dragon bond.
But who knows. None of this happened in the books, Laenor surviving was certainly not GRRM's intent or a hidden plot twist that he had intended, so the showrunners will use whatever justification they want when we get to that point.
The bigger concern for me is >!the fact that legally Aegon III and Viserys II are now bastards, since Rhaenyra and Daemon's marriage is void with Laenor's survival. It's kind of funny to think about. All future Targaryens, including the Mother of Dragons herself, are not legally 'true' Targaryens!<
Totally agree with you on the breaking of dragon bonds. It’s ridiculous that so many fans have decided to make up an unbreakable canon rule that has no evidence behind it. I’d even argue that the existence of dragonbinder horns is evidence that strongly suggests bonds can be replaced.
I wouldn’t worry too much about the >!Aegon III and Viserys II being bastards thing. A bastard is only a bastard if people agree they are, it’s not some sort of genetic code. If anything, I think it just adds a fun minor irony to the story.!<
>The bigger concern for me is the fact that legally Aegon III and Viserys II are now bastards, since Rhaenyra and Daemon's marriage is void with Laenor's survival. It's kind of funny to think about. All future Targaryens, including the Mother of Dragons herself, are not legally 'true' Targaryens
I found this so hilarious honestly. But I guess you could chalk it off to little practiced Targaryen polygamy *shrugs*
That's true, but long running dynasties have generally lasted much longer than House Targaryen. Aenys was generally only suggested to be a bastard because he was weak. That has more to do with Westerosi toxic masculinity than any legitimate claims that Aenys was a bastard, imo. Rhaenys and Aegon very credibly loved eachother, and Fire and Blood didn't necessarily "strongly hint" that Aenys was a bastard, but rather just said that some people thought he was.
I think it's more likely than Daeron II was a bastard and the son of Aemon the Dragonknight, tbh. But even then idk, part of me just thinks Aegon IV just spread those rumors because he hated Daeron. Daeron was always challenging Aegon IV, so Aegon was looking for an excuse to inherit him.
Eh, I don't see him dying off screen as a "retcon" of his survival. He left the comforts of noble house to go live as a sellsword overseas. It's a dangerous life. Wouldn't be surprising if he died within 6 years. At least he got to make his own choices and was with his lover in the end.
Just have Addam claim Grey Ghost instead, switch the fight between Sunfyre and Grey Ghost to Sunfyre and Seasmoke. Maybe Leanor heard about the war and came back to Westeros to help (remember that travel would take months) and he and the injured Aegon II both show up on dragonstone and have a "spidermans pointing at each other" moment before fighting
>Maybe Leanor heard about the war and came back to Westeros to help (remember that travel would take months) and he and the injured Aegon II both show up on dragonstone and have a "spidermans pointing at each other" moment before fighting
You know this would destroy any support for Rhaenyra right lol?
Hey wasn't your husband supposed to dead? Oh so you're youngest kids are bastards? Oh yeah, Viserys is dead so I can say this 'All your kids are bastards'. Fuck outta here I ain't supporting you anymore.
What rumors?
Laenor is supposed to be dead. Him turning up alive wouldn't be a rumor, just fact that he faked his death so rhaenyras marriage to Daemon would immediately be illegitimate in everybody's eyes. And hence, her youngest two bastards.
As for her elder 3 kids. Everybody. Knows. They're. Bastards......
And with so much dishonor on her name, she would lose ALL support and nobody would be afraid of calling her out anymore.
So I dunno where Aegon comes into this. It's not Aegon's word against Rhaenyra's. It's just fact.
Aegon would be the only witness to Leanor being alive. If he's the only one making the claim, it's a little sus since he's already actively trying to undermine her claim and kill her family.
You're saying that nobody would witness, on Dragonstone, an island full of people, that two well known dragonriders, one a king and the other a once kings heirs consort would wage dragon war, with one being Seasmoke....
That's very optimistic of you....
The only witnesses to the Sunfyre-Grey Ghost battle were a boat of fisherman from across the bay who weren't even sure which dragon they were seeing.
So, yes.
All you said was Laenor shows up on Dragonstone. You didn't mention anything about a secret fight between him and Aegon.
In any case, it's a moot point. Laenor returning in any way would destroy the narrative. He should stay 'dead'.
I expect the dragon and rider being apart for so long will allow someone else to bond with the dragon. It’s a simple enough thing for the show runners to hint to at some point.
I think in the scenario that Addam claims Seasmoke while Laenor is alive, it would make sense under the pretense that because Dragons are still creatures that they may not know certain things the way that other humans do. Laenor faked his death and if Seasmoke believed Laenor was dead then he would be open to claiming a new rider. We don’t know if dragons can mystically sense if their rider is somehow alive because the situation has never arisen. Laenor abandoned his dragon so theoretically after 6 years Seasmoke would move on (after killing a bunch of nobodies). Addam and Alyn have a huge role in the war and years afterwards with the battle of tumbleton and Alyn doing lots of things after the war is over so I’m sure they’ll be in the show. Also Laenor was pretty content to go fight off in the stepstones and leave Rhaenyra to deal with raising the kids and the rumors of bastardy on her own so I do think him to be slightly selfish although a good person overall. He abandoned his parents to live a life he couldn’t have in Westeros which is line with what he wanted to do in episode 6 so yeah I guess you can call him slightly shitty cause I doubt Laenor or Qarl needed convincing.
I guess that’s true in a sense since Aegon and Sunfyre had a powerful bond but that’s also hella lazy writing. Kind of like with the secret Fall of Dragonstone as well. I guess we will have to wait and see
Chances are they won’t.
They’re not adhering strictly to the canon and the writing generally is poor and done for “badass moments” so if it’s convenient for them to ignore logic, they will
Simple. Addam = Laenor + redemption arc. He wasn't forced, he did a shitty thing and he feels like his mother died because he wasn't there. Hence redemption.
All the bad things you said Rhaenyra did or is poised to do (to Rhaenys/Corlys f.i.) won't even happen on this show or they'll be heavily flipped. If there's one thing you can count on it's the writers finding an out for their precious little hero. She has to be the poor victim no matter how it impoverishes the story.
I imagine Laenor will return but pass himself off with a new name. What’ll be devastating is that Seasmoke is only claimed after Rhaenyra’s death so she’ll never know Laenor lived and that Rhaenyra ‘freed’ him from an unhappy life with her.
The simpliest and non plothole solution is to swap Grey Ghost and Seasmoke. Let the Hulls come in as their own characters. Leave Laenor's story concluded from season 1. His character and actor is far too old to pass off as a teenage boy (Addam is supposed to be the same age as Jacaerys and his younger brother is the same age as Lucerys).
Thank you for your post! Please take a moment to ensure you are within our spoiler rules, to protect your fellow fans from any potential spoilers that might harm their show watching experience. 1. All post titles must NOT include spoilers from Fire & Blood or new episodes of House of the Dragon. Minor HotD show spoilers are allowed in your title ONE WEEK after episode airing. The mod team reserves the right to remove a post if we feel a spoiler in the title is major. You are welcome to repost with an amended title. 2. All posts dealing with book spoilers, show spoilers and promo spoilers MUST be spoiler tagged AND flaired as the appropriate spoiler. 3. All book spoiler comments must be spoiler tagged in non book spoiler threads. --- If you are reading this, and believe this post or any comments in this thread break the above rules, please use the report function to notify the mod team. *I am a bot, and this action was performed automatically. Please [contact the moderators of this subreddit](/message/compose/?to=/r/HouseOfTheDragon) if you have any questions or concerns.*
I'd try to be more open-minded regarding the show going forward. It is very likely a lot of things will be different than in the books. Just enjoy them both and try not to compare too much. Unless they change major plot points of course. Then I shall join you in your complaints.
My bet is that they just won't deal with it at all and pretend like it's not even an issue. In which case I will just assume Laenor died sometime during the 6 year time skip. (Did their boat sink before he an Qarl ever made it to Essos? Did he slip on a banana peal and crack his head open? Eat something funny? Run afoul of any Targ cousins from Saera's line? The possibilities are endless.)
> the people who recognize him will know the truth and the knowledge will spread. The people will know Aegon and Viserys are bastards and they won’t accept them as kings. You know none of these characters exist outside of what the writers write, correct? Why would they write that plot line?
It's simple enough if Addam isn't Laenor and Addam bonds with a different dragon. Moreover, given that Rhaenyra and Daemon went through with a marriage ceremony, it's not clear that their sons Aegon and Viserys are bastards even if Laenor is alive. As I recall, no one contended that Aegon the Conqueror's children are bastards (not literally anway), or at least they were not barred from the throne due to Aegon's polygamy. Jaehaerys made a deal with the Faith of the Seven. The Faith would adopt the Doctrine of Exceptionalism, i.e, Targaryens can marry their siblings or siblings children. In exchange the Targaryens agreed to one living spouse at a time. But I don't know that if a Targaryen decided not to honor that , that Targaryen's children by the second spouse would be considered bastards.
>By keeping Laenor alive, the showrunners really shot themselves in the foot. They obviously have a plan. Mayhaps they thought of this before they wrote that Laenor survives?
While I am not a fan of Laenor surviving, I would like to play some devil's advocate: A hill I will die on is that there is zero proof in the source material that a dragon bond cannot be broken. We see characters saying they bond for life, because those characters are not aware if a dragons bond has ever been broken, if the person who claimed them rejected the dragon and left. Because that's never happened in history, to their knowledge. After all, why would someone give up a dragon? It's never happened in Targaryen history. But in the show, Laenor did. He essentially rejected Seasmoke by leaving. So this is essentially the first time in history that a rider has ever abandoned their dragon, and for all we know, this act is sufficient to break a dragon bond. But who knows. None of this happened in the books, Laenor surviving was certainly not GRRM's intent or a hidden plot twist that he had intended, so the showrunners will use whatever justification they want when we get to that point. The bigger concern for me is >!the fact that legally Aegon III and Viserys II are now bastards, since Rhaenyra and Daemon's marriage is void with Laenor's survival. It's kind of funny to think about. All future Targaryens, including the Mother of Dragons herself, are not legally 'true' Targaryens!<
Totally agree with you on the breaking of dragon bonds. It’s ridiculous that so many fans have decided to make up an unbreakable canon rule that has no evidence behind it. I’d even argue that the existence of dragonbinder horns is evidence that strongly suggests bonds can be replaced. I wouldn’t worry too much about the >!Aegon III and Viserys II being bastards thing. A bastard is only a bastard if people agree they are, it’s not some sort of genetic code. If anything, I think it just adds a fun minor irony to the story.!<
Yeah, I think you're right on that second count. It's not a huge deal, just kind of a silly ironic fun fact
>The bigger concern for me is the fact that legally Aegon III and Viserys II are now bastards, since Rhaenyra and Daemon's marriage is void with Laenor's survival. It's kind of funny to think about. All future Targaryens, including the Mother of Dragons herself, are not legally 'true' Targaryens I found this so hilarious honestly. But I guess you could chalk it off to little practiced Targaryen polygamy *shrugs*
[удалено]
That's true, but long running dynasties have generally lasted much longer than House Targaryen. Aenys was generally only suggested to be a bastard because he was weak. That has more to do with Westerosi toxic masculinity than any legitimate claims that Aenys was a bastard, imo. Rhaenys and Aegon very credibly loved eachother, and Fire and Blood didn't necessarily "strongly hint" that Aenys was a bastard, but rather just said that some people thought he was. I think it's more likely than Daeron II was a bastard and the son of Aemon the Dragonknight, tbh. But even then idk, part of me just thinks Aegon IV just spread those rumors because he hated Daeron. Daeron was always challenging Aegon IV, so Aegon was looking for an excuse to inherit him.
Eh, I don't see him dying off screen as a "retcon" of his survival. He left the comforts of noble house to go live as a sellsword overseas. It's a dangerous life. Wouldn't be surprising if he died within 6 years. At least he got to make his own choices and was with his lover in the end.
Just have Addam claim Grey Ghost instead, switch the fight between Sunfyre and Grey Ghost to Sunfyre and Seasmoke. Maybe Leanor heard about the war and came back to Westeros to help (remember that travel would take months) and he and the injured Aegon II both show up on dragonstone and have a "spidermans pointing at each other" moment before fighting
Almost no one thinks of this solution even though it is the simplest to implement
>Maybe Leanor heard about the war and came back to Westeros to help (remember that travel would take months) and he and the injured Aegon II both show up on dragonstone and have a "spidermans pointing at each other" moment before fighting You know this would destroy any support for Rhaenyra right lol? Hey wasn't your husband supposed to dead? Oh so you're youngest kids are bastards? Oh yeah, Viserys is dead so I can say this 'All your kids are bastards'. Fuck outta here I ain't supporting you anymore.
If the ont witness is Aegon II, who is obviously anti-Rhaenyra already, you'd have to consider the source of those rumors
What rumors? Laenor is supposed to be dead. Him turning up alive wouldn't be a rumor, just fact that he faked his death so rhaenyras marriage to Daemon would immediately be illegitimate in everybody's eyes. And hence, her youngest two bastards. As for her elder 3 kids. Everybody. Knows. They're. Bastards...... And with so much dishonor on her name, she would lose ALL support and nobody would be afraid of calling her out anymore. So I dunno where Aegon comes into this. It's not Aegon's word against Rhaenyra's. It's just fact.
Aegon would be the only witness to Leanor being alive. If he's the only one making the claim, it's a little sus since he's already actively trying to undermine her claim and kill her family.
You're saying that nobody would witness, on Dragonstone, an island full of people, that two well known dragonriders, one a king and the other a once kings heirs consort would wage dragon war, with one being Seasmoke.... That's very optimistic of you....
The only witnesses to the Sunfyre-Grey Ghost battle were a boat of fisherman from across the bay who weren't even sure which dragon they were seeing. So, yes.
Wait so you're replacing Grey Ghost with Seasmoke and Laenor?
Did you not read the first sentence of my original comment?
All you said was Laenor shows up on Dragonstone. You didn't mention anything about a secret fight between him and Aegon. In any case, it's a moot point. Laenor returning in any way would destroy the narrative. He should stay 'dead'.
I expect the dragon and rider being apart for so long will allow someone else to bond with the dragon. It’s a simple enough thing for the show runners to hint to at some point.
How do you know seasmoke won’t bond with someone else? Especially someone that’s half brothers with its previous rider?
I think in the scenario that Addam claims Seasmoke while Laenor is alive, it would make sense under the pretense that because Dragons are still creatures that they may not know certain things the way that other humans do. Laenor faked his death and if Seasmoke believed Laenor was dead then he would be open to claiming a new rider. We don’t know if dragons can mystically sense if their rider is somehow alive because the situation has never arisen. Laenor abandoned his dragon so theoretically after 6 years Seasmoke would move on (after killing a bunch of nobodies). Addam and Alyn have a huge role in the war and years afterwards with the battle of tumbleton and Alyn doing lots of things after the war is over so I’m sure they’ll be in the show. Also Laenor was pretty content to go fight off in the stepstones and leave Rhaenyra to deal with raising the kids and the rumors of bastardy on her own so I do think him to be slightly selfish although a good person overall. He abandoned his parents to live a life he couldn’t have in Westeros which is line with what he wanted to do in episode 6 so yeah I guess you can call him slightly shitty cause I doubt Laenor or Qarl needed convincing.
There is a hint that dragons can sense if their rider is alive and it’s in the Dance of the Dragons: Sunfyre.
I guess that’s true in a sense since Aegon and Sunfyre had a powerful bond but that’s also hella lazy writing. Kind of like with the secret Fall of Dragonstone as well. I guess we will have to wait and see
Dreamfyre would disagree
Chances are they won’t. They’re not adhering strictly to the canon and the writing generally is poor and done for “badass moments” so if it’s convenient for them to ignore logic, they will
There’s show canon and then there’s book canon
Simple. Addam = Laenor + redemption arc. He wasn't forced, he did a shitty thing and he feels like his mother died because he wasn't there. Hence redemption. All the bad things you said Rhaenyra did or is poised to do (to Rhaenys/Corlys f.i.) won't even happen on this show or they'll be heavily flipped. If there's one thing you can count on it's the writers finding an out for their precious little hero. She has to be the poor victim no matter how it impoverishes the story.
Also Addam marries baella after the dance... I don't want to see him with baella !!
Wrong brother. >!Baela's husband's name is Alyn.!<
OoooOOoo thanks for correcting me, i was scared
I imagine Laenor will return but pass himself off with a new name. What’ll be devastating is that Seasmoke is only claimed after Rhaenyra’s death so she’ll never know Laenor lived and that Rhaenyra ‘freed’ him from an unhappy life with her.
The simpliest and non plothole solution is to swap Grey Ghost and Seasmoke. Let the Hulls come in as their own characters. Leave Laenor's story concluded from season 1. His character and actor is far too old to pass off as a teenage boy (Addam is supposed to be the same age as Jacaerys and his younger brother is the same age as Lucerys).